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- [00:00]
A
This is Australian True Crime with Michelle Laurie. Earlier this week, fugitive Desi Freeman was shot dead by Australian police after seven months in hiding. Freeman had been on the run since August last year when he shot and killed two police officers at his rural Porapunka property before disappearing into dense bushland. Police say the 56 year old, linked to sovereign citizen ideology died following an hours long standoff after refusing to surrender. Today we examine what we know so far about the case, the manhunt and the broader concerns around anti government extremism. With Holly Hales, Chief of Staff at the Australian Associated Press. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [01:01]
B
So it started last August, late August. If you're in Victoria, you know, that's almost like the, the crest of spring up in the high country. So there's a town called Pura Punka, which is near Bright, which is a very popular tourist town, beautiful part of the state, extremely dense bushland. And 10 police go out to Desi Freeman's house. It's a property that he lived with his family on and they had a warrant regarding historical child sex offences.
- [01:28]
A
I think that's really important to, you know, reiterate.
- [01:32]
B
Yeah.
- [01:32]
A
That this wasn't a man who was being persecuted for no reason. There weren't police rocking up because he was of his political beliefs or anything like that. Very serious allegations against Desi. Why did so many police go, do you know? I mean, that seems like overkill to me to send 10 police out to serve a warrant.
- [01:52]
B
Not much is known about why it happened. And I kind of understand that in the way that police have the job to do of policing, which has been the initial incident and then also there afterwards. Like, do they really want to be telling the public that much about.
- [02:08]
A
Well, I suppose up until this week there was every chance this would go to court.
- [02:11]
B
All of it, 100%. Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
- [02:13]
A
So, yeah, I guess for that reason they didn't want to talk much about it.
- [02:15]
B
Yeah, definitely. But in terms of sending 10 police out, we know that there was a similar incident in Queensland in Torres 2022, I believe, where there was three people on property and they shot at police and two officers, young officers, died very sadly. So I think maybe police probably had some contextual information about that. But no, we don't know why there was 10 officers sent out there that day. Essentially a shootout happens, unfortunately, two officers are shot dead and a third is seriously injured and Desi disappears into the bush, essentially.
- [02:49]
A
It's amazing really how the similarities with the Queensland case, isn't it? In that case as well, two police shot dead at the scene, one injured, managed to escape and survive. So the third officer survived after this?
- [03:00]
B
He survived, yeah. So we don't know much about. We know he's seriously injured, but like in terms of him being public, I just assumed that he wanted to be, you know, recover in private. Yeah, yeah, fair enough.
- [03:11]
A
Does he still out there?
- [03:12]
B
Exactly, yeah.
- [03:13]
A
100% terrifying. So who were the two officers who were killed that day?
- [03:17]
B
So we had Detective leading Senior Constable Neil Thompson and Senior Constable Vadim Diwart Hotart. Neil was in the last week of his policing, long policing career. He was about to retire up in the high country where he lived with his partner. And Vadim, who was from Belgium, was actually only up there for a short stint. So he was just helping out. Neo Wangaratta.
- [03:41]
A
Oh, my goodness. I hate to say it, but it feels like it's like a plot for a movie, isn't it? The older guy, a week from retirement.
- [03:49]
B
Yep.
- [03:50]
A
Before we go any further, we should probably sort of define cookers slash sovereign citizens. I don't even know what do people of Desi's ilk call themselves? Like, who are these people?
- [04:04]
B
So a lot of them are self described sovereign citizens, which is a term that's kind of come a bit more to the forefront over the past six years since COVID started. And that's people who feel like the laws of the land don't apply to them despite living in, you know, society.
- [04:21]
A
So as was pointed out to me many times when this first kicked off seven months ago, that Desi Freeman was a person who rejected the government, said the government has no jurisdiction over him while living on Centrelink payments for many years.
- [04:35]
B
Yeah.
- [04:35]
A
So this.
- [04:36]
B
Yeah.
- [04:36]
A
Seems to me lots of contradictions about the lifestyle.
- [04:39]
B
There is. Yeah. And I think that's kind of. That was, you know, pretty broadly reported at the time that it, you know, people can kind of, you know, take one and leave the other, which is interesting. But, yeah, sovereign citizens, as I said, were kind of came more into the public consciousness during COVID Anti vaxxers, anti lockdown. Yes. We had a couple in the news cycle over that period of people, you know, they get covert fines and they were like, I am a sovereign citizen, I don't need to adhere to this while driving on, you know, a taxpayer funded road, which is interesting. But there's all that. Yeah, yeah.
- [05:09]
A
So to people like me, it just seems insane, it just seems dumb. But then a Desi situation reminds us, because I'm inclined to ignore, ignore that lifestyle, just, you know, to just go, I'm not interested in any of that rubbish. But then a Desi situation makes you realize, oh, I actually have to take an interest in these people.
- [05:29]
B
You know, when this sort of thing happens, as with any kind of like subsect in society, like it makes you think like, oh, wow, there's people out there who are living like that. And the answer is yes, like often, you know, of course in country areas or in more isolated areas, but I mean, they exist kind of everywhere.
- [05:42]
A
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And we have to pay attention.
- [05:45]
B
Yeah, of course. Yep.
- [05:46]
A
Do you know much about Paul Punkah? I mean, you've mentioned it's beautiful, it's a beautiful part of the world. Our friend Charlie Bazzina, former homicide detective, went up there in his capacity as a media commentator, sort of not long after Desi went missing, whatever, disappeared. And Charlie was telling us recently that what struck him was that someone, a local, pulled him aside and said to him, this place is riddled with cookers, our colloquialism for these off grid people. And he said to Charlie, that shop there is owned by them. That shop there, like that. It was a very strong, sovereign, citizen style community. Is that your understanding of the area?
- [06:26]
B
Well, I think I just as an aside go there like twice a year. One of my really good friends has a farm near Bright, so I'm a supporter of the area in the sense that it's so stunning. It's truly like you go up there any season, it's near the ski fields, it's got an autumn festival and then summer you've got all the high country watering holes. So like, I think primarily for Melbournians, at least it is a tourist spot. Like it's. People go up there and it's kind of like the classic Victorian bush, Australian bush, high country. There's a lot of farmers up there, there's a lot of ski enthusiasts, there's a lot of backpackers. But before this I had no idea that there was people living, you know, an alternative lifestyle up there and that that was seemingly a community of people.
- [07:08]
A
This is a great divide because me as a Victorian and Melbourneian, I'm scared, really totally scared of that part of the world. It feels like all I ever hear about the high country is weird disappearances, murders. And I imagine it like deliverance. I imagine like I would never take my children to that place full of weirdos, the button man. So it's really great to hear somebody else say, it's very beautiful. And I go there a lot.
- [07:35]
B
I was up there the week before Desi went missing. And I'm not saying that I summoned him, but also, like, it was weird coming back and being like, this is such a remote part of Australia and the biggest crime.
- [07:45]
A
Yeah, the biggest crime scene at the
- [07:47]
B
time has happened up in that really random spot.
- [07:49]
A
Yeah.
- [07:50]
B
And then I've been there since, over the summer. And the only thing I noticed during the summer was that there was a lot more police officers there. So in the weeks and months afterwards, particularly the weeks afterwards, there was hundreds of police from Victoria, police in Melbourne and elsewhere, stationed up there to, you know, investigate what had happened, look for Desi. And, you know, the rest of it
- [08:07]
A
was still very present for Victoria police, wasn't it?
- [08:09]
B
Yeah, definitely.
- [08:10]
A
A lot of us kind of forgot about it or was, you know, on the back burner. Although I have said before that I found men were obsessed with this story. Everywhere I went, men would approach me. Lucky me. But all they wanted to ask me was, where's Desi?
- [08:25]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:26]
A
Literally, people in the street would ask me, where's Desi? And I'd go, I don't. Oh, God, I've forgotten about Desi. But for police, I noticed in particular, we talked to a lot of retired police, and for them, it was so present, like, they were really nervous. I felt this anxiety in them about those police who were still up there looking for Desi, because there was always a sense that if he's alive and if they find him, he's going to try and kill more police.
- [08:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think in Victoria and elsewhere, being a police officer, that would be one of their fears, dying on the job. And it's taken very seriously within the police force. Like, people remember in April 2020, there was the Eastern Freeway tragedy, where four police officers were run down on the Eastern Freeway. And that, although it was kind of at the height of COVID really punctured the force. Of course it would. It's like any industry, like, as a journalist, if I had heard that there was journalists being killed somewhere, which, I mean, it does happen like that. That's personal because it's, you know, it's your profession.
- [09:24]
A
It's something their families as well, I think. Imagine having your husband or your wife and your kids at home suddenly feeling this high anxiety every time you go to work, because there's Been an incident like that, definitely you're reminded of how dangerous the job is. So then when Desi went missing, went on the run, of course. It's been how long now? It's been a year?
- [09:46]
B
Seven months.
- [09:47]
A
Seven months. See, it feels longer. So it's been seven months of this conjecture debate. Even today, people are still saying to me, I thought he was dead. No, I knew he was alive, and all that kind of stuff. What was the. As far as, you know, what was the vibe in terms of police and people really in the know and involved? Did they assume, like a lot of people, that Desi's dead?
- [10:10]
B
Mm. Yeah. So police actually came out a couple of months ago now and they said that their working theory was that he was dead.
- [10:16]
C
We have done extensive searching of the caves, the mines, the huts, the rivers. We are comfortable that we don't believe he is here alive. However, we are keeping an open mind that that is a possibility. We do believe that strongly that he is in this area deceased.
- [10:36]
B
Essentially the context of that was, was that a single gunshot was heard soon after Desi went into the bush. So they had assumed that it was a self inflicted gunshot and then he had died. And in addition to that working theory, which seemed pretty solid, at least according to them, was that the night that and the days following this, that this happened, there was really, really cold temperatures up in poor Punkah. And I feel like it's a really important part of the story to just for people to visualize what that part of Australia is like. It's really thick bushland. It's very mountainous. It's hard to go out there. You can't even really walk that far unless you're like, you know, an experienced bushman or whatever.
- [11:15]
A
As I said earlier, there's been a lot of disappearances.
- [11:17]
B
Yeah.
- [11:18]
A
In that place. And a lot of them would have been just bushwalkers who got lost and never found. Yeah, yeah, it's very dense.
- [11:24]
B
Yeah, completely. So, like, if you think about someone who maybe wouldn't have had the skills that someone like Desi Freeman would have had, they wouldn't have survived very long. So I think a lot of people just assumed maybe he was. He was taken by the elements or as the police said, there was a self inflicted gunshot wound.
- [11:39]
A
Well, I mean, I just always thought he was really experienced. He's a really experienced bushman. He probably knew or maybe suspected this would happen one way or another, that he would want to go on the run and also has a lot of support up there. I'm again going off Charlie's description of the neighbourhood saying, no, there was a lot of people who were sympathetic to Desi's way of life up there. We'll come to how that's playing out right now shortly. But the actual, what do we call it, the confrontation that happened this week, Tell us where it happened.
- [12:15]
B
So there is a region up near the Murray River. The town is called Walwa or the area is called Walwa, and that's about 156 kilometers by foot from where Desi went missing.
- [12:28]
A
So that's interesting as the crow flies.
- [12:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, quite a hike. And like, we were doing some research at work yesterday about how could someone. Again, this is all unanswered questions still, but, like, how could someone walk that far, you know, on a straight road? I think I'd struggle doing that. But he's seemingly gotten from poor Punkah to Walwa and there's so many unanswered questions about how that happened.
- [12:52]
A
And as you said at the time, certainly there was lots of roadblocks and things like. Cause my immediate thought is, well, probably in the back of someone's ute, actually. But then when you say, you know, remind me that at the time, and even since then there's been a lot of police and they would have been watching the roads very carefully and all that. So potentially he did walk all that way.
- [13:10]
B
Yeah, yeah. The thing is, we just don't know at the moment. Obviously, police's investigation is very active. Victoria Police's Chief Commissioner Mike Bush said yesterday that this kind of new part of the investigation is only hours old. So, like, a coronial inquest could take a year, it could take, you know, however many months and we will eventually, hopefully get answers around.
- [13:30]
A
Well, because it seems clear that he was assisted. Well, right. We don't know.
- [13:34]
B
We don't know. Like.
- [13:35]
A
Yeah, it seems clear to me, if not to anyone else, it seems clear to me that someone was helping this guy. And so that's why it's still. Well, that's one of the reasons why it's still an investigation. Even though Desi's dead, that part of the operation is concluded. There's still a lot to investigate, I guess, 100%.
- [13:52]
B
And I think, especially in a cronial inquest, it's, how can this not happen again? How can we. Because, like, he's dead. Unfortunately, there are two officers also dead and one seriously injured. It's about now ensuring that it doesn't happen again.
- [14:04]
A
Yeah, that's interesting because surely a lot of that has to Be engaging with the community that he was part of, with the sovereign citizen community whose main objective is not engaging with police and government.
- [14:17]
B
Yeah.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah.
- [14:18]
B
That is interesting. Definitely. Yeah.
- [14:21]
A
I've read a great quote that said by a lady who knew desi. She says 20 years ago, they used to go to these hippie festivals. He was a young, lovely guy who she used to see at these festivals. And she made the point that, you know, if you don't engage with people who are already kind of on the outs or are struggling with society, struggling to fit in with society, you can create this bitterness. They can grow into dangerous people. So I guess you're right. I guess that's gotta be part of.
- [14:51]
B
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think it's essentially, it's four hours from Melbourne. At least four hours. And as I said, very thick bushland. There's some towns, you know, every 10 kilometers, there's wineries. Like, there's a lot to do up there. But also, I'll go up there for a week, and by the end of it, I'm like, I need to talk to someone. Like, it is mountainous. It's. You know, if you're on a farm, you're lonely. Yeah. You're literally alone. And, like, a lot of the kind of, I guess, amenities that you'd be used to in a bigger town or in a city just aren't there. So.
- [15:19]
A
My brother lives in Port Point Lonsdale.
- [15:22]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [15:23]
A
And I think that's remote.
- [15:23]
B
Oh, my gosh. No.
- [15:25]
A
Uber Eats, Bob.
- [15:26]
B
Yeah. Literally. I know. Terrible. Yeah, no, it's. It's definitely a bit more than that. You can't even get, like, taxis.
- [15:32]
A
No Ubers.
- [15:33]
B
No Ubers. No. Uber has not reached Port Bunker. So. Yeah, I know.
- [15:37]
A
It's a desolate hellscape. I'm hearing what you're saying.
- [15:40]
B
Beautiful.
- [15:41]
A
Yeah. Now, I know we shouldn't be laughing, but I think there's.
- [15:45]
B
No.
- [15:45]
A
No, no, no. But I think there's a. I've got a giddiness about what's happened. I think there's something about. As I said earlier, I'd kind of forgotten about Dizzy, but I guess I hadn't. I guess it was in the back of our minds, it was this ongoing. Oh, yeah. What is going to happen about that? Are we never going to know? Is he. Or the fear. I guess the fear factor was he's gonna pop up somewhere, and for all we knew, it could be Melbourne, could be anywhere in the country. He's gonna pop up. So I'm feeling. And I can only imagine Police and other people more closely related are feeling a sense of what, relief?
- [16:23]
B
Yep, I'm sure they are. Yeah, definitely.
- [16:26]
A
What about journos you're with aap? It's kind of the baseline organisation of journalism in this country, I think. What's the vibe? I mean, was there excitement? Was there ringing around, WhatsApp group going off?
- [16:37]
B
Well, I think when the news first broke, it was about 9:30 in the morning. And when news like that drops, it first came from. From a Channel 7 reporter called Cassie Zervas, who's a wonderful crime reporter. She got the drop and I first read her post about it and I was like, that can't be real.
- [16:53]
A
Same. What do you texted me? And I was like, yeah, you dropped everything completely.
- [16:58]
B
And it's like. I read it and I was like. It said that he'd been shot dead, but I was like, was he shot dead six months? Was it when it happened or was it today? And then there's so many questions that kind of need to be answered and need to be gathered after that. Immediately put a reporter and a photographer on the road up to poor Punkah, where they still are. But in terms of the sentiment of journalists, like, huge news day, I think that's when being a journalist is the most important because you're telling people, you know, yes, big news, what's happened and you're telling them clearly and you're trying
- [17:28]
A
to tell them the facts because there are a lot of things, you know, flying around. And so, yeah, you have the opportunity to say, I tell you what, we really know what happened when they arrived at his. What's it called? Is it Thollo Farm?
- [17:41]
B
Yeah, Follow Farm. Yeah. So it's in a town called like Follagong, but the area is like Walwa. So police arrived at the property, we believe, around Sunday evening and that's just going off. What Mike Bush said in a press conference, he said that police had been on scene for 24 hours. But the actual, I guess, standoff started on early Monday morning, about 5:30 or 6:00 in the morning.
- [18:07]
A
Dawn raid.
- [18:08]
B
Yeah, a dawn raid, if you will.
- [18:09]
A
Yes, I love a dawn raid. Yeah.
- [18:10]
B
And essentially Desi was, I guess, made aware that they were there and a similar incident kind of to the original one ensued in that he was armed, police were obviously armed. But in this instance, Desi ended up being shot dead.
- [18:26]
A
Well, he was. I mean, a similar instance to the initial one, except for the fact that police were so prepared for him being armed. I mean, as I say, the fact that they sent 10 police the first time. Tells me that they were worried about him. But this time, obviously, I mean, I read they had a perimeter of armoured cars, armoured vehicles around there. They had eight snipers in position before obviously they ever let him know that they were there. So no chances this time.
- [18:53]
B
Yeah, Yep, yep, yep. And I think it's also important to know that like. Or for people to just be aware that like in instances like this, like, it is very personal for police. Again, these are their kind of brothers in arms that have been killed doing the job that every police officer does. So it is kind of, it does have that personal component in terms of like righting the wrong that has happened clearly to the members of the force.
- [19:14]
A
Yeah. And everyone's turned out, by the way, that Critical Incident Response Team. Special Ops.
- [19:19]
B
Yep.
- [19:19]
A
And the Special. We've met a few special ops. And I mean they're a breed all their own because that is their job. Their job is of course, to go in and oftentimes arrest dangerous armed offenders. So he was armed in the end, I believe, with one of the service revolvers from the police that he killed seven months ago. How long did the. I'm assuming there was a standoff. I'm assuming it wasn't fast, that he just came running out with this police gun.
- [19:45]
B
Yeah.
- [19:45]
A
How long?
- [19:46]
B
So we think it was about three hours. Yeah.
- [19:49]
D
There was an appeal to encourage the person to come out. We're examining the sequence of events and we'll be able to report on that. But it did result from a standoff, the deployment of tactics. He then exited the building. There was an opportunity for him to surrender peacefully, which he did not.
- [20:21]
A
About a week ago, police made a statement regarding Desi's wife, which seemed random at the time. Can you tell us what that was about?
- [20:28]
B
So essentially they said that they weren't pursuing charges against his wife. Around the time the initial incident happened, his wife Marley, and a child that lived with them, a 15 year old boy, were arrested. But yeah, they confirmed that they weren't pursuing anything against them.
- [20:43]
A
You don't have to comment on this, but I thought, then yesterday I thought, okay, there's a reason police have released that statement a week ago. They must have known by then where he was. They must have been planning this operation by then and maybe someone was under surveillance or something. It has to be related, don't you think?
- [21:07]
B
Well, we don't.
- [21:08]
A
Again, I know you don't know and you like to stick to facts, but tell me the vibe. What's your vibe?
- [21:13]
B
So, I mean, I Think a lot of police work is, you know, kept in house. And that's probably for good reason. They need to, you know, they've got a job to do. The media has a job to do. Sometimes they are similar, sometimes very different.
- [21:25]
A
I love the story so much when they're like, okay, yeah, we did tell this journalist that so that this person would hear it.
- [21:32]
B
I love those. Yeah, I get what you mean. And sometimes that does happen. But I. In this case, we actually aren't sure yet. So police. This is obviously such a major investigation. Everything they did in relation to it would have been done intentionally. But whether or not that statement and what happened yesterday are related, we actually don't know yet.
- [21:51]
A
Okay. Remains to be seen. Now, I just wanted to talk to you about this statement that was released by Desi's son was released on social media. And I'll read through it and then we can talk about how it makes us feel. Cause it's given me some feels. I'm sure you're all celebrating the death of Desmond Freeman. I'm putting this post here to make you all as a community. Keep something in mind. My last name is not. It's Freeman. So I guess this is maybe is coming out to some of his social media friends to go that, you know, this is who I really am. I'm the eldest son of the Freeman family. And you would also know my beautiful mother, Marley. I'm not here to defend my father's actions because I know what he did was wrong. What I'm here about, however, is seeing so called friends and people who I thought were nice people saying some questionable things. I hope you all realize that I am looking at everything you're saying and that you realize how that is making me feel. I know you people have thoughts to share about the situation and what's been happening. Just bear in mind that to use and I'm just gonna say what is
- [22:53]
B
written because we actually use that in our story as well.
- [22:56]
A
Yeah, I think it's sweet. And I've been known to drop a use in conversation. Bear in mind that to use my father was a cop killer. But to me, that's still my father who raised me to be the man I am today. And for the people who know me well, they know exactly what I'm talking about. This is news I'll be grieving about while some of you disgusting humans celebrate online for me to watch. Before you have something smart to say, how about you try and experience 1% of what me and my family are going through. If you Can't. Then I highly recommend keeping your nasty comments and thoughts to yourselves. My heart also goes out to the families of the fallen police officers who finally have closure. That is the bit to me that even in. Because I really started empathising with him as I'm reading this message, thinking for the first time, yeah, God, Desi's family. But then for him to have the presence of mind and the emotional capacity to mention the police and their families, I thought was really impressive for a young, very young person.
- [24:00]
B
Yeah, definitely in a horrible situation. Yeah, it really is a horrible situation for quite literally everyone involved.
- [24:06]
A
Yeah.
- [24:07]
B
And this is a young man, a young boy. We don't know his age. We don't have it confirmed whether or not he's an adult, but it is, you know, he's lost his father. And obviously, the events leading up to Desi Freeman's death were pretty intense, pretty horrible. He's, you know, don't want to forget that he has killed two men who were just doing their job.
- [24:26]
A
Absolutely.
- [24:27]
B
But also, there is a family that's left behind here.
- [24:30]
A
Yeah. And as I said to you earlier, I'm giddy. I mean, that's. There is a sense certainly among, you know, police and crime people and crime nerds like me, there is a sense of excitement about this story coming to a conclusion. And then. Yeah, I forgot. Yeah, absolutely. About this young man and his family.
- [24:52]
B
Definitely. And I think, as you guys would know, as your listeners would know, there's always victims at the center of every crime story. And that can be a direct victim, or it can be a family member of a victim, or it could be a family member of a perpetrator. Like, these are people that, you know, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to them. And I think I tell my reporters at work a lot when I'm talking about the work that we do, especially on courts or in crime, when we have, you know, people have victim impact statements or we have the sentence or the, you know, when they are found guilty or not guilty. This isn't just the worst day of someone's life, it's the worst day of someone's life who's had something terrible happen to them.
- [25:28]
A
Yes.
- [25:29]
B
And that's so important.
- [25:31]
A
Terrible days.
- [25:31]
B
Completely.
- [25:32]
A
Yeah. It's interesting. I was so involved in the Erin Patterson trial and was, in a creepy way, looking forward to the victim impact statements.
- [25:41]
B
Right.
- [25:42]
A
But then when the day came around, I couldn't bring myself to go. I actually thought, oh, I feel really revolting about sitting there and watching these people give These statements. The other thing is that the people who really made me think about offenders families are homicide police.
- [26:01]
B
Interesting.
- [26:02]
A
Yeah, it is interesting that they oftentimes mention part of my job was dealing with offenders family families and getting them through the court process, getting them through the whole process. And oftentimes they'll raise memories of really good people on that side of the courtroom.
- [26:20]
B
Yeah, definitely. I can imagine. Yeah. And if you spend any time in a courtroom, you know that it's not a fun place to be, you know, that this is, you know, a very complex, often a very intimidating process that people kind of find themselves in and.
- [26:33]
A
Oh, terrifying process.
- [26:34]
B
And it is, you know, a means
- [26:35]
A
to an end again, whichever side you're on. It's a horrible situation.
- [26:38]
B
Completely court process. And like, we obviously, you know, want people to be found guilty if they commit crimes, but it doesn't necessarily make it easy for anyone.
- [26:46]
A
No. So what's the way forward now? You've mentioned a couple of times there'll probably be an inquest and all these sorts of things. How long does it take for these wheels to turn?
- [26:55]
B
Now you were to think with something like this, it could take multiple years, it could take a year to pull everything together. Obviously there will be a lot of police resources pumped into this. Fair enough. There's two police officers have been, you know, very sadly murdered here. But it could take any length of time. I think your listeners would probably know with Aaron Patterson, that happened in July 2023. I think they died and the trial didn't start till May 2025. Yeah, so. And that was a fast track trial. So like that was two years. So this could take a year, it could take two. And I think there has to be a coronial inquest if there's police for police related death. But whether or not there'll be additional kind of hearings in terms of, you know, with the Bondi terrorist attack in December, they're having a royal commission into that. So it's like there could be additional processes to go.
- [27:40]
A
Yeah, I never thought of that. And you're right, there's two police related shootings in this story. Now, Desi shot two police and then in the end the police shot him. So for those reasons, the coroner has to look at everything. Okay, well, thank you so much. And where can we read your stories?
- [27:54]
B
Yeah, so I work at Australian Associated Press aap. It's Australia's national newswire. So we are essentially a news wholesaler. We are on the ground in every story, essentially. Poor Apunka up there right now. In court every day, we discover crime across Victoria and the rest of Australia.
- [28:13]
A
So oftentimes, when we read a story, we'll see up the top. Aap. Or can we access just aap?
- [28:18]
B
Yeah, yeah. So we have an app which, yeah, I know, very, very new age, but, yeah, so readers can just go straight to the source, essentially. And people often ask me, holly, where do you get, like, non biased news? Oh, my. Guys, I work for a newswire. Like, please just access the app. Aap.
- [28:33]
A
That's a good point. Non biased. So, yeah, you're not owned by a corporation or.
- [28:37]
B
No, no, no. Yeah.
- [28:38]
A
That has an editorial policy about anything.
- [28:40]
B
Yeah. So our main, I guess, difference is that it's just straight news. Just news, yeah, Straight news, yep.
- [28:51]
A
Thanks for joining us on Australian True Crime. If you would like any more information about anything you've heard on the show today, or support numbers, just check out the show notes.
- [29:04]
B
The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders, past, present and those emerging.