Escaping a Cult Posing as a Yoga Movement - ATC International

Summary

Australian True Crime – "Escaping a Cult Posing as a Yoga Movement"

Podcast: Australian True Crime (Bravecasting)
Host: Meshel Laurie
Guest: Ashley Freckleton
Date: May 6, 2026
Theme: The infiltration of predatory cult dynamics within an international tantric yoga organization, survivor testimony, and the fight for justice.

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Overview

In this gripping episode, Meshel Laurie interviews Ashley Freckleton, a survivor of the cult-led international yoga organization at the center of Apple TV's documentary "Twisted Yoga." Ashley recounts her path from spiritual seeker to unwitting participant in a manipulated system of grooming and control under the fugitive leader, Gregorian Bivolaru (GB). The conversation details Ashley's recruitment, experiences of psychological coercion and attempted trafficking, her narrow escape, and eventual activism that contributed to police action against the cult's leadership.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Yoga Cult" at the Centre of the Scandal

• Origins and Structure

  • The movement originated in Romania (often called MISA: Movement of Spiritual Integration into the Absolute) and operates globally under names like Atman Yoga Federation, Tara Yoga Center, Natha Yoga, etc. [02:53–03:35]
  • GB's dissident status during Romanian communism gave him legitimacy and drew followers seeking spiritual guidance. [03:45–04:17]

• Leader's Mystique and Red Flags

  • GB, known by nicknames like "Grieg" or "the Guide," was in hiding as a fugitive, which, paradoxically, increased his spiritual allure among followers. [04:36–05:35]
  • Early on, Ashley noticed something was amiss but sought external validation to quell her doubts. [07:13–08:06]

2. Recruitment and Grooming Mechanisms

• Targeting the Vulnerable

  • Ashley was twenty-five, living overseas, and searching for spiritual direction—conditions the cult exploited. [02:00–02:43]
  • The grooming process involved seasoned members (often other women) identifying and encouraging susceptible newcomers, potentially without realizing their own complicity. [11:15–12:49]
  • Spiritual bypassing and love bombing were normalized tactics, justified as "spiritual service." [12:49–13:17]

• Gradual Escalation and Boundary Testing

  • Entrants to women’s ashrams were videoed and photographed nude under the pretense of "aura reading." Refusing was framed as a spiritual failing. [13:31–14:03]
  • The cult’s teachings heavily focused on transcending personal boundaries, turning legitimate concerns or doubts into "ego limitations." [16:09–16:39]

3. Sexual Exploitation Under Spiritual Guise

• Tantra as a Cover

  • While tantra and yoga are legitimate disciplines, the group weaponized "tantric initiations" as spiritualized sexual abuse. Consent was undermined by systemic pressure and manipulation. [14:33–15:21]
  • All decisions were made under intense psychological duress; saying "no" risked shame, exclusion, or worse. [18:47–19:09]

• Trafficking and Conditioning

  • Women (including Ashley) were "invited" to meet GB at secret locations. The process was heavily ritualized, with paperwork, vows of secrecy, and psychological barricades. [19:02–20:56]
  • Ashley narrowly avoided direct sexual exploitation but recounts the harrowing process—including being blindfolded, having possessions confiscated, and being isolated from the outside world. [30:32–31:25]

4. Psychological Control and Modes of Coercion

• Desensitization and Manipulation

  • Required consumption of graphic, boundary-breaking pornography was justified as spiritual education, but functioned as desensitizing and sexualizing the environment. [26:43–27:43]
  • "If you say no, you’re not just failing yourself but damning your soul for future lives."—the threat went beyond physical safety to existential terror. [28:14–30:27]

• Gaslighting and Reinterpretation

  • Doubt and trauma were internalized as personal spiritual failure. Even women who resisted or who described abusive, coercive sex rationalized it as "initiation." [32:51–33:57]
  • Aggression from GB against those who refused was routine—raging, berating, even physical intimidation. [34:34–35:16]

5. Escape, Aftermath, and Seeking Justice

• Ashley’s Escape

  • After realizing what awaited her in France, Ashley engineered her own release under pretext, despite the cult's attempts to hold onto her by keeping her passport, phone, and belongings. Obtaining permission to leave required a barrage of manipulative and angry correspondence from GB himself. [35:42–37:42]

  "I had to write letters to him to get permission to leave [...] got very angry letters back from him full of capitals and underlines and anger and shaming." — Ashley [35:42–36:15]

• Immediate Aftermath

  • Back in Australia, Ashley struggled with PTSD, triggers tied to yoga and meditation, and the spiritual superstitions instilled by the cult. She delayed disclosing her experience out of fear (and vows), but eventually found relief and validation after confiding in family. [40:25–43:54]
  • Processing involved extensive self-education about cults, trafficking, and coercion. [44:39–45:42]

• Challenges Reporting Crimes

  • Multiple attempts to report the abuse to international law enforcement, charities, and even through Interpol initially yielded no response. [46:37–48:59]
  • France’s unique police unit specializing in cult abuses was instrumental; testimonies and media attention led to a coordinated international investigation and arrests. [50:53–51:03]

6. International Raid and Legal Developments

• The Crackdown

  • In November 2023, French police arrested GB and several high-ranking cult leaders on charges including trafficking, rape, and sequestration. The case is complex, involving dozens of suspects—many later released. [52:02–55:35]
  • GB remains in custody as the case builds towards trial, thanks in part to Ashley's testimony.

  "I went to Paris in 2024 and met with the magistrate to give my testimony and additional evidence." — Ashley [56:42]

• Continued Cult Activity

  • Despite leadership arrests, the cult’s international network remains operational, raising funds and publishing counter-narratives. [54:50–55:24]
  • France's specialized cult crime police unit (Khaimard) is unique internationally and key to action against the group. [51:01–51:23]

7. Survivor Advocacy and Collective Action

• Outreach and Community

  • Ashley has since worked to connect with other survivors, publicize warnings, and support those involved in the case—even inviting others affected to join legal efforts. [49:02–49:39]; [56:42–57:36]

  "If anybody listening has been involved with the school and wants to join in with legal proceedings, please reach out [...] your voice matters and it's not too late to get involved." — Ashley [57:09]

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Grooming and Control:

  “You're taught to, in this situation and a very dangerous situation, to question yourself rather than questioning the situation.” — Ashley [16:09]

• On Consent:

  “It's not consent if you're afraid to say no. And so many of these women, it's presented as a choice. It's not a choice because you're terrified of saying no.” — Ashley [22:09]

• On Psychological Aftermath:

  “I was scared to break those vows. I was scared of what would happen to me if I had told people what had happened.” — Ashley [41:45]

• On Gendered Experience:

  “I remember the men's ashram didn't have any of it. We had pages and pages of rules… and I don't think the men's ashram had any of that.” — Ashley [19:09]

• On Systemic Enablers:

  “They've started a website that's basically… trying to debunk everything that's in the documentary. It's actually very self-incriminating… they're just sort of admitting guilt really.” — Ashley [54:50]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:22 – 04:17: Background on the cult’s international scope and GB’s persecution history
• 11:15 – 13:17: Discussion on the "scouting" and grooming of young women
• 13:31 – 14:03: Naked photographs and initiation rituals ("aura reading" justification)
• 19:02 – 20:56: Secretive process leading to inner circle/ashram selection
• 26:43 – 27:43: Exposure to pornography as required "spiritual" training
• 35:42 – 37:42: The logistics and emotional ordeal of escaping the French house
• 47:08 – 51:03: How police in France finally became involved and arrests were made
• 52:02 – 56:13: Details of the criminal case, charges, and status of trials
• 56:42 – 57:36: Ashley’s continued advocacy, legal testimony, and survivor outreach

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Conclusion

Through Ashley’s courageous, candid storytelling—and Meshel Laurie’s insightful questions—this episode exposes the sophisticated psychological abuse and trafficking at the heart of an organization masquerading as a global yoga movement. It also highlights survivors’ resilience and international obstacles to prosecuting cult-led crimes. The case remains ongoing, but justice, in part thanks to survivor voices like Ashley’s, appears within reach.

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If you've been affected, support is available through Lifeline (131114), 1800RESPECT (1800-737-732), or 13 YARN (13139276) for Indigenous Australians.

Transcript

[A]

This is Australian True Crime International with Michelle Laurie. Twisted Yoga is a brand new short documentary series on Apple tv. It takes us into the world of Gregorian Bivalaru, who is the spiritual leader of an international tantric yoga movement and who was for many years one of Interpol's most wanted fugitives. Bivalaru is now in custody in France, thanks in part to our guest Ashley Freckleton. She joins us to talk about it. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation. I actually like a lot of people, I guess saw the ad for this documentary and I thought it was going to be another documentary about Bikram yoga. Are you getting that a lot or a lot of people going, I can't believe it's a second kind of yoga.

[B]

Yeah. Not necessarily Bikram, but everyone's going, oh, another yoga one. It's another story about yoga. Yeah.

[A]

It's surprising to us, isn't it? I've never been a big yoga person, but we have this. But I am Buddhist, I suppose so they probably intersect that in our imaginations. We think of yogis as chilled out, fantastic people, don't we? Do they're, they're chill and good normally. Good hearted, kind hearted, vegetarian, kind of, you know, good people around the place.

[B]

Yeah. Non violence, you know, they've got these, what are they called, like ahimsa, like nonviolence and all of these principles that underpin yoga which are all very humanistic and kind and loving.

[A]

Yeah. So I could understand why you, like so many other people, were attracted to yoga and then thought, I'm gonna actually take yoga real serious, I'm gonna turn this into my lifestyle and my identity, I guess. Can you tell us about that period of your life, please, when you, when this all started?

[B]

Yes. I was living overseas and I was on a bit of a spiritual journey and I would really kind of think about it being a situation of vulnerability because I'd, I'd just moved overseas, I was 25, I was exploring my spirituality, my identity, what I, I was in a new city going through a breakup and I also really enjoyed yoga and I was just looking for a really good yoga practice to start with. I wasn't looking for a spiritual yoga school, I was just looking to go to India and then I got linked in with my brother's friends and they'd found this amazing spiritual yoga school that was going to change my life and it just snowballed from there?

[A]

Yeah. What was it called again? What's the name? Because I know it's got a couple of names around the world, but firstly, where were you in the world and what was it called there?

[B]

So I was living in the uk, so first I was living outside of London, about an hour outside of London. And the online branch that I first joined is called Atman Yoga Federation. That's sort of their umbrella one. Then I eventually joined the London branch, which is Tara Yoga Center. But they go under so many different names. They're called Nata or Natha Yoga center in Scandinavian countries. And they go by a whole list of different names depending on where you are in the world.

[A]

But they're sort of familiar names. If you're in this. This world, you know, this world at all. Because, like, for example, there's a Tara center in Melbourne that's a Buddhist center. That has nothing to do with this yoga group at all. So.

[B]

Nothing to do with this group, no. But Misa is the main kind of originating school as well, which came out of Romania. So it was movement of integration into the Spiritual absolute.

[A]

So I learned from the documentary that there was a period of time, I guess, during the communist regime in Romania where yoga was illegal there.

[B]

Yes. And this is a really big part of the story that the leader kind of latched onto in that he was a dissident of the communist regime and he was persecuted for practicing yoga during that time, which is partly true. And he did receive refugee status in Sweden. So it kind of lended an air of credibility to the whole thing because he did have that genuine refugee status at the time.

[A]

He was a warrior for yoga.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. It is very impressive. Absolutely. He went on to found this school, though. I mean, when did you become aware of this individual who was the sort of the spiritual leader of the yoga group that you had joined?

[B]

I became aware of him fairly early. I was doing the online classes, and I was talking to this friend that had kind of drawn me into the school. And he was based in Romania at the time. And we were talking online, and he started to talk about his spiritual master or his spiritual guide. And then he sent me links and gave me his name, which is Gregorian Biblarou. And it immediately raised red flags for me because he said, he's in hiding, he's wanted by Interpol. But, you know, look what happened to Jesus. This guy's obviously really powerful. People want to take him down. And then I was just thinking about

[A]

the commentary around persecution. They. At the moment, people talk about It a lot at the moment because they say that Donald Trump's trying to create this air around himself that. Yeah, there's a sort of a faith, a trust and excitement around leaders in Christianity who we can perceive as being persecuted. It's like part of the path.

[B]

Well, it's part of the narrative that strengthens it or gives it credibility.

[A]

And this bloke's got it. What's his name? Gregorian Bivalarhoo.

[B]

Yeah, Bivalaru Bivolaru.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's not always been his name. I think he went by Magnus Orelson or something at some point in time. And in the school they call him Grieg or the Guide.

[A]

Okay, Greig. We'll call him Greig. Is that all right with you, or is it triggering? You know, is it.

[B]

It is a bit, yeah. I always. I used to call him G.B. by his initials. Weirdly, I called him G Man for a while because I was like, I just couldn't bring myself to call him Greek. It just. It irks me.

[A]

Yeah, I get it. G.B. i'm happy to call him G.B. so, okay, so you became aware of him early on because friends were saying, oh, God, I'm here in Romania. I got to meet GB or part of the law, I guess, sharing the law with you, of this man and this group that we're part of now. Spiritual leaders. Everyone kind of is looking for one, I think, at certain times in their lives, don't you?

[B]

Yeah, we're looking for guidance, and we're looking for answers to those really big questions about life and existence and what happens when we die and what's the point and why are we here? And we're looking for somebody to give us those answers or to give us a sense of peace or calm in our existential angst, I think.

[A]

Were you aware that there was a sort of an order of women around gb, if I could put it that way, or that there was a. That there came a point for women in this group to be able to go and meet him and spend time with him and get sort of one on one time with him. When did you become aware of that?

[B]

So certainly not initially. That was something that became aware that sort of came into my awareness later on. And it didn't all happen at once. It was more of an inkling or a suspicion, and then it just became more and more clear as time went on. But my initial suspicions, when I did some reading up on him online, I sort of wondered about it, and then I spoke to a friend who had nothing to do with the school. She was completely external of the school, studying psychology, really valued her opinion. And I said, does this look strange, sus. Suspicious to you? What do you think? And she looked it up and she goes, well, it kind of looks like a human rights issue. It looks like he was persecuted. It'll kind of, you know, seems okay to me. And I was like, yeah, good, okay. I'm just being paranoid, everything's fine. So I was also seeking external validation or reassurance that things weren't. Because that uneasy feeling was there for a really long time and it was always there and I was just constantly kind of squashing the doubts.

[A]

And also because you're not stupid. So I think, you know, there's always a tendency for victim blaming in these situations, for people to say, oh, well, how bloody stupid? What did you think was going to happen? And all of that. But you are a classic example of just a normal, smart young woman who did have alarm bells and then went and checked them out, asked other people what they thought, you know, did your due diligence, it seems like to me. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And there were smart people around me in the school. The people in the school were not stupid. I mean, one of my tantra teachers that I really looked up to was a psychiatrist working in the nhs.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Highly educated people. So it's, you know, there's not stupid people.

[A]

No. So when did you. I got the impression there was a moment where you really wanted to go and meet the leader, gb. How does that. How does that happen? How does. How do you enter that inner circle?

[B]

Yeah, that's an interesting kind of idea that I think a lot of people have developed or sort of got the impression that I knew that this was going on and that I wanted to go and see.

[A]

I didn't think that you knew it was a sexual thing at all. I just thought, no, no, no, no. What I mean is, like, when did you know that it was a thing that some students were able to go and meet with the leader himself and have that kind of level of engagement? That's all I meant.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So I found out when I was in Romania, because when they're interviewing you when they park you in front of the camera in a very vulnerable situation. But how did you get to Romania?

[A]

Sorry to take you back, but that's what I mean. How did you even get to that level where that you were being considered to be part of the inner sanctum? How does from. From where you were in London just doing online yoga classes to There.

[B]

Yeah. So there was a camp, they've got this kind of summer camp in Costenest in Romania that's over the whole month of August. And it's sort of their biggest event of the year. And because the person that drew me into the school was so heavily involved in going to be there. And it actually all started because I wanted to go somewhere in August. I wanted to go to India. And he's like, oh, well, India. You know, it's actually monsoon, monsoon season in India at the time. So why don't you come to this festival in Romania that's for the entire month of August. And it felt like it was meant to be because I was like, this is the exact time frame that I wanted to go and do a yoga retreat. And here it is. It fits. So I went to Romania for this one month camp and ended up getting into this secret women's ashram while I was there. So there's a men's one, there's a women's one, there's the friend that kind of drew me in, he was staying in the men's one. And that kind of catapulted me towards the center very quickly. I was a bit of an anomaly in that sense. Most of the women that were there had been there for a really long time. And if they hadn't been there for a really long time, they'd been there for a couple of years at least.

[A]

I guess my question is, you know, are you. Are there scouts at this event? Are there people who are looking for young women that leader might like to meet or. Yeah. How does that next step take place?

[B]

I can't say with certainty because I think it's very different across different countries and different schools. In a sense, yes. I believe I have observed that phenomena happening in other areas. I've seen that there are women who are high up in the school, they're in the position of being a teacher, and they're observing women that are showing promise and also happen to be young and attractive and beautiful. And those are the women that are then given a lot of tension and given a lot of love bombing and brought into the inner circle and given invitations for certain opportunities. And it's just. It's a process of grooming. And I don't think it comes from a place of malicious intent. These women actually think that they're doing a service to others. They think that this is a blessing.

[A]

It's. At the moment, I feel like Glenn Maxwell is in so many of. She's sort of in our consciousness when it comes to these. To these situations. Like, in a lot of ways, this situation's reminding me of the Epstein Maxwell situation. And so, yeah, I was. I'm glad you pointed that out because I was imagining they were co conspirators, that there were women who were looking for young women for the leader to take advantage of sexually in the way that Ghislaine was for Geoffrey. But you're saying you think there was still, even at their level, a way to believe that you're doing the right thing. It's all about the spiritual path, and you're just helping young women.

[B]

Yeah. Spiritual bypassing is happening the whole way through. And they are themselves victims at a certain point. And then it's a really gray area of when they go from being a victim to a perpetrator. And I think some. Some women are really clear victims. And then some women really do go on to be perpetrators in their own right. And I think they are running the operation. They're quite aware of what's happening, but again, they're still justifying it to themselves under this spiritual premise.

[A]

So you're in Romania, you get to the big August hoedown, and you. How were you selected then? You don't think you were selected by those sorts of ladies. How did you get to this interview process?

[B]

So when you go into the ashram, they take all of the photos and videos of you naked. And during that interview, what's the justification

[A]

for that on the day?

[B]

They say it's to read your aura.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which even then I was going, why can't you read my aura with my clothes on? There shouldn't be any reason for this. But then if you have an issue with it, they have all these writings about nudity and the human body and celebrating the human body. And if you have an issue with it, that's your problem, and that's your spiritual test to overcome.

[A]

And as you said, they make it clear from the beginning they're teaching Tantric yoga, which to most of us, we think about the tantric sex. Even if you know nothing about yoga or sex for that matter, You've heard of the Tantra, and it's, you know, it's kind of related to, you know, Sting and his wife having sex for three days. It's like something sexual, so. But. But not in a gross way. Right. It's about a spiritualization of sex. I think it's fair to say we're all kind of across that kind of.

[B]

And like, that's the first thing I thought of when I heard about Tantra. But when I signed up, I actually only signed up to the yoga classes. I wasn't really interested in the tantra, and it was only after I was already in that kind of fold. Like when I went to Romania, I was only doing the yoga. I wasn't doing the tantra classes. And it became very clear to me that most of the people in the school were there for the tantra. And it's marketed to you as not being about sex. And they say everyone thinks tantra is about sex. It's not about sex. It's about love and living from the heart. And that was what made me feel comfortable enough to open myself up to it a little bit more because it seemed less taboo.

[A]

And it's about a higher level of consciousness, isn't it? It's about like, well, you can just come and do yoga if you want, but if you want to get more out of this and, you know, learn more and become more highly evolved, do the tantra side, I would imagine.

[B]

Yeah. And it's about, they say, sublimating your lower energies or the sexual energies and bringing them higher, bringing them up into the heart and operating from this, I guess, higher field of consciousness and greater level of awareness and all of the spiritual wonderful benefits that come with it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, and that's a real thing. There's tantric yoga all over the world. That's a real thing. And that doesn't stray into problematic areas. I mean, you know, again, I'm. I guess I'm just trying to reassure you and anyone else listening that I, I don't think at any point you were dumb or didn't take things seriously enough or, you know, I. I really feel like I understand how you could be interested in this, excited by this, you know, and really give. Give your all to it.

[B]

Yeah. And once you're on a spiritual path, you. You're taught to, in this situation and a very dangerous situation, to question yourself rather than questioning the situation. And so any kind of boundary that you put up is your own limitation, and any reservations or doubts that you have are your own demons and your own spiritual tests to overcome. And so what you're learning to do. Yeah. Is just keep squashing.

[A]

You're just holding yourself back when you, when you, you know, buy into those concerns that you have.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Okay, so you're at the retreat, you're naked, so they can read your aura. Then what happens?

[B]

Then they say, and they don't tell you they're going to say this. They say if you had the opportunity to meet him, what would you say? And I can't quite remember the specifics here, but what they're doing is testing you. Because while I was staying in the ashram, two women got kicked out. After this video filming. They got kicked out of the ashram, weren't allowed to be there anymore because they were labeled as superficial, fluctuating, changing women. And what they had said was no. And I knew, I. There was a part of me that knew that this was a rhetorical question. There was only one answer that they were looking for and that was to say yes. And I'm not sure how I came to that conclusion, but I knew that it was too risky for me to say no. And so when they pitched that question to me, and it's, you know, very vulnerable situation, I felt sick at the thought of it. I had absolutely no desire to meet this fugitive in hiding, but I was too scared to say no. And I said, oh, you know, they said, how would you feel and what would you say? And I said I would feel really nervous and extremely anxious at the thought of that. But, you know, of course I would say yes, even though internally all I wanted was to say no.

[A]

Can I just take you back to an important point that you've made there, which was that he was still a fugitive and in hiding. He wasn't in a tent out the back. He wasn't conducting yoga sessions at this retreat. No one knew where he was. It was still. That was part of the allure. But also, yeah, I can understand. What does that mean? If I got to meet him, where would that be?

[B]

It scared me because I was like, where does that put me? What sort of position does that put me in legally? What if, yeah, what if I have been to see this person who's, who's in hiding? What does that mean for me? Like, I was terrified. I didn't want to get caught up with the law. I didn't want to go and meet this fugitive. I was terrified.

[A]

Yeah, that's a weird question to be asked when you're rolled up for a yoga retreat. So you said yes? I guess with most of the other women who were there, two said no and were sent packing. Then what happens? How long is it then until things escalate?

[B]

So they make you write down dates within. It has to be within a 12 month period.

[A]

Oh, like when you can go when

[B]

you would be available theoretically to meet him. And this was in copious amounts of paperwork that we had to do. And I can barely recall it. Cause there was so much of It. And I remember the men's ashram didn't have any of it. We had pages and pages of rules. We had to read forms, we had to sign vows on the Bible of secrecy. And I don't think the men's ashram had any of that.

[A]

So where. Did you know where the founder was at this stage? It sounds like a Simpson character to call him the founder, but everything sounds weird about the whole thing's weird. Yeah, it's crazy in retrospect. I do understand how it unfolded though.

[B]

I was. It was weird and crazy at the time as well. I was like, this feels weird and icky, but I just kept squashing it. Yeah.

[A]

Did you know where in the world was he at this stage? Where is he a fugitive? Is he in Romania? Is he in. Or do you not even know where in the world you're agreeing to go?

[B]

No one knows where he is. I suspected that he was somewhere in Eastern Europe. I actually didn't suspect that he was in France. That's where he was at the time. But yeah, so I remember I put down dates as far in advance as I possibly could. I got them as close to that 12 month mark as I possibly could and thought, hopefully it'll all just get forgotten and I'll never have to revisit this again because I just don't want to go. Then when I was leaving, so the end of the camp, I already had a flight booked back to Australia and they said, oh, we're sending a car to him. There's a spot, do you want to go? And I said, no, I've got a flight I have to catch. And I was so relieved that I had this excuse of like, I can't go, I have to catch this flight. But they were sending a car to him. So that made me think that maybe he was in a neighboring country somewhere from Romania. But it never occurred to me that he was in France.

[A]

God. All right, take us forward to when you actually went. Was it to France?

[B]

Yeah, that was the only location I went to in the end. Because from that house I flew straight home to Australia. I got out from that situation in that house.

[A]

Oh, okay. So I'm used to. I'm thinking about in the documentary. There are. You'd speak to other women. There are other women who were trafficked all over. I'm going to say trafficked because that's what happened.

[B]

They were trafficked. They absolutely meet all of the criteria of trafficking. They were trafficked.

[A]

So would you say you were trafficked to France?

[B]

It's really hard. I think I meet a lot of the criteria, but there's a gray area there, because I think sometimes trafficking is more about commercial exploitation, and this was more about a personal exploitation.

[A]

I don't think it is. Is it? I mean, I don't know if that's part of. No, I don't think. Because I think no. And again, you can't think about trafficking women these days without thinking about Epstein. And a lot of that was just sharing girls with his mates. I mean, I don't.

[B]

That's really true.

[A]

I don't think there was any commercial benefit to anybody. So. No, I feel like you were moved from one location to another for sexual exploitation.

[B]

Yeah. And that was my understanding of the situation as well. And when I looked into kind of the different criteria of trafficking, I thought, that's what this sounds like to me.

[A]

And especially you had no idea. You had no idea. Right. You were being sent to France to join this harem.

[B]

No, I knew that I was going to. I knew that I was going to meet him. And I was terrified at the thought. And I didn't want to go, but I didn't feel like I was able to say no. And that also is such a huge piece because it's not consent if you're afraid to say no. And so many of these women, it's presented as a choice. It's not a choice because you're terrified of saying no. And, yeah, I knew I was going to meet him, but I thought I had suspicions at this point in time that maybe these sexual initiations were happening. But I thought, if he's actually a spiritual master, he will know that that's not going to be a benefit to me. He'll know I'm not ready for that. He will know that I just want to talk to him. And if he's really this proper, spiritual, enlightened master, he's not going to hurt me.

[A]

Absolutely. And you would feel like if he doesn't get it, he'll get it when I explain it to him. He doesn't want to hurt me. He loves me. He wants to help me. That's his whole purpose in life. Yeah. He's not gonna rape me.

[B]

Exactly. And that's what I kept telling myself, because I was. I felt sick. I felt sick at the thought of going. I did not want to go. But I kept telling myself that if any of these initiations were happening, it wasn't my business to judge. Even though it feels wrong to me, even though I was like, I can't see this it doesn't feel right with me. Who am I to judge these women that go potentially and really, really want to? I'm not one of those women. If he's a spiritual master, he's going to know that and it's going to be fine.

[A]

That's what's great about the documentary too, is there's that lady, Italian lady, I think she is, who talks about the fact that she really wanted to go and have these sexual initiations with this guy. She believe in the purpose of the initiations. She was on her spiritual journey and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think she says she did the initiations and she got a lot out of. Seems to me that she doesn't feel that she was taken advantage of. However, she is not dismissing your story or anyone else's story. Is that a fair descriptor of where she's at?

[B]

I think that's where she's at. I think in reality she might have come round a little more to understanding that. That what happened was not. Was not necessarily what she might have thought at the time. But yeah, that's. That's the impression that I got as well.

[A]

I thought it was great to include her because it's all. It's about these gray areas and it's about the reasons why people may choose not to believe victims is because there are some people who don't feel victimized and that's. That's just life. This is complex scenario.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So I thought it was really great to include her.

[B]

Oh, I agree. I agree. It's really important that they included it because it also shows this balanced reporting and this kind of showing another side of things and also showing what we were surrounded by. So the women like me who had the doubts were surrounded by women who had no doubts. And so again, you start to question yourself rather than the situation.

[A]

Good point. Because she's such a cool lady. So I can understand how even if you. I encountered her, if I'm in my early 20s and I run into her, I think she's. She's cool, she's smart, she knows what it's all about. I'm gonna trust her and then go for it the way she did, even if I don't really want to.

[B]

I was defaulting my trust to others because I didn't trust myself. So I would trust the judgement of others.

[A]

Was it you who walked into the French? So we're talking about a literal house, a building where women are brought to from all over the world to live and start these practices. You Know, they think it's part of their spiritual journey. That's what you're told. Was it you who, when you arrived, there were girls watching porn in the lounge room?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I got there and I walk up the stairs and there's just these two girls cuddling on the couch and just hardcore graphic porn on the big screen tv.

[A]

Yeah. What was that about? Were they. Were they told to do that? Were they. I mean, we know on a psychological level what it's about. It's about breaking down barriers and all of that, breaking down boundaries, sexualising them, sexualizing the house, the atmosphere, we get all that. But what were they told that was about, do you think?

[B]

I'm not sure whether that was one of the kind of compulsory watching videos or whether that was their choice because they just thought, let's watch it because it will be a nice thing to do to, you know, look at this woman's energy and her shamelessness. There was a lot of talk about shamelessness. Ah, so it might have been a choice, but it also might have been part of the required watching. So there was a long list of DVDs that we were required to watch as part of our training and a lot of them were porn. Some of them were sort of these weird sexualized tantric movies. One of them was a pretty awful scene of these like Portuguese women in a empty swimming pool just all peeing in each other. Yeah, sorry, you know, I won't go into detail, I won't, I won't be graphic about it, but it was just really graphic, really awful, uncomfortable watching. And when I told people what I'd watched, I said, oh yeah, I had to watch, you know, the one called pissing competition. And they said, ah, yeah, this one

[A]

is really challenging, but you've already given us this really intriguing context about seeing women, sexual energy and how free they are with it and that way of making, Trying to get young women to look at porn, when in actual fact, you know, as I've said, I think it's about sexualizing them, breaking down boundaries, all of that kind of stuff, and setting up desensitizing. Desensitizing, yeah. Wow. Okay, so that's a lot for you to walk into. Tell us about your stay in the house in France, what happened?

[B]

So my say lasted about a week. I was going through the process of. Everyone's going through this same process where they're given the rules to read, they're given time to settle in, they're given a big bag of gifts from him, grooming, also some cash to go and buy yourself something nice, like a nice dress. I think I got about €100 for no reason, just in an envelope. It also happened to me in Romania as well. I got given an envelope of cash from him just to buy myself something nice. And then they give you the readings and the list of videos that you have to watch. So it's sort of like a bit of a training program that's all about desensitizing and learning about the initiation. And it became clearer to me the more that I read the compulsory reading, the more it was clear that all of these readings were about initiation and about the world being at your feet if you go through with it, and if you don't go through with it, then you're destined for a life of suffering and negative karma, and your soul will just keep devolving. You might go into a state of poor mental health. You might go into a state of delirium and all of these horrible things that will happen to you, and not just to you in this life, but also to your soul if you say

[A]

no in future lives. As a Buddhist, it's interesting for me to hear what you're saying, because I can hear the bastardization of Buddhism and Hinduism and everything here and these descriptions and these warnings, and it reminds me of the way Christian cults bastardize the message of Christianity and the messages in the Bible. So. Same modus operandi, really, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's. It's really scary when it's not just your life that's at stake, it's your soul. It's the essence of your being, of your very existence. And that is. That's a whole other thing. And I mean, it's. If. If people aren't spiritually inclined towards those ideas, they might not find that as scary. But for somebody who does have those spiritual ideals, it's terrifying.

[A]

Absolutely. So when did you get to meet the man?

[B]

I didn't meet him. I'm so lucky I didn't meet him. I got out. Took about 24 hours of negotiation, though, to get out. They wouldn't just release me because I was in a foreign country. I didn't speak the language. I'd been blindfolded on my way to the house, so I didn't know where I was. There were also high locked gates. I don't know if the house was also locked and they had all of my belongings.

[A]

Why did you choose to leave? Did you. There was a looming meeting, I'm assuming. Did you realise? Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have to go through an initiation with this guy who is in actual fact a sort of, what, in his 60s? Romanian dude? In his 60s or something? Like he's not the 70s. 70s, okay, so he's not the kind of man that a beautiful 22 year old girl is normally going to be looking to have sex with, frankly. And so. Okay, so you knew that you were, this training process was building up to that and you decided to bail.

[B]

Yeah, well, it was becoming really clear to me that that was very likely going to happen. Even though they said to me, no, he will never make you do anything that you don't want to do. He would never do that to you. And so they're telling me that there are women that go and just talk to him. There are women that don't go through the initiat, but I wasn't seeing any. I hadn't met a single woman there who hadn't gone through it. And what really stuck with me was this woman that I met and they had been telling me, he will never make you do anything you don't want to do. And I was talking to her and I said, how was it, you know, she'd just come back from seeing him for the second time? And she said, oh yeah, you know, I, I, I was, the first time I came to see him, I was crying, I was sitting in front of him and I said, this is crazy, I don't want to do this. I have a boyfriend, he doesn't know I'm here and he's saying, why not? You know, it's integrated for you. And basically he wore her down. And she went through with it. And I said, and how did you feel afterwards? And she just shrugged and said good, very unconvincingly. And she said then she went home and she was spending time with her family and she just realized how good she felt within herself. She knew that it had been good for her. And my immediate thinking was, or were you really so relieved to be home with your family and so at peace with your familiar people around you and you kind of, because of the cognitive dissonance of, you know, what actually happened to you, you sort of went, oh yeah, this was good for me rather than I feel good being here and relieved.

[A]

Relieved that it's over.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And then she came back, so she got invited back and she said, oh yeah, same thing again. You know, I was sitting in front of him, I was crying, I was saying, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this. And he said, why not? We've already done it before. Why won't you do it again? And he wore her down. And she went through with it. I said, how did you feel afterwards? And she said, yeah, good. Like, she shrugged. And then she said, and then, you know, I don't know why I said this to him, but, you know, I told him I didn't want to grow back a third time. And he got really mad at me. And I got, you know, like a bad feeling. Like he was angry at me for that. And I don't know why I said that. And she was shaming herself for saying I didn't want, she didn't want to do it. And then she was menstruating. And he won't, he won't touch you if you're menstruating. So she got sent back to the house. And I just couldn't help but think I would be her. I was like, I would be sitting on the floor crying. I would be saying, I didn't want to do this. And as much as these women are telling me he would never make me do something I didn't want to do, that's exactly what he did to her. And I was just terrified of this. You know, I felt like my brain had been split in two. And I was really scared of what brainwashed Ashley would do. I thought she would go through with it.

[A]

And we know now in retrospect and from the commentary from other women that it was very difficult to say no, if not impossible. But there are other women who talk about that, wanting to say no and saying no and being sort of coerced and then chastised and, you know, all levels of emotional pressure put on them to go ahead and acquiesce and have sex with the leader. How bad did it get when girls did say no? From what you've seen, the research that you've done, the women that you've met.

[B]

Yeah, so women that I've spoken to. So I'm not talking, I'm not speaking to first hand experience here, but I am speaking to direct accounts that have been relayed to me from women who've experienced them and observed them. There is a lot of rage. He yells, he rants, he bellows. I've heard of sort of physical intimidation, physical restraint, of sorts of. And yeah, violence in that respect. He really yells and yells and yells and screams and then will go out and publicly do it in front of everyone else as well. Just berating them. Yeah, that's what I've heard.

[A]

And you have heard a lot of testimony, and we'll get to why, you know, and how you've become a sort of a leader in your own right of women in this situation. But. But tell us first about the trip out of the house in France. So you've. You've realized the only way out is out is to actually get out of that house. And you were saying that they've. They've got your passport and everything. Is that right? You don't know exactly where you are.

[B]

Yeah. And they've got my phone, so, you know, I can't. I can't. And my wallet. You know, I can't pay for anything. I can't make any calls, so I have to negotiate with them to get those things back. And also, you know, we've signed these very threatening agreements that if we're caught trying to steal any of the teachings, then we give permission for them to take all of our belongings without us going to the police as punishment for this abhorrent behavior. And I thought, what is stealing the beliefs? Could I be accused of that? You know, I just didn't know what they were capable of. And I was so scared that, you know, something would be put on me, like, oh, you know, you've been getting framed for trying to steal something, or. Yeah, I just didn't know what they were capable of. And I was so scared that I wouldn't get my things back. So I was just trying to kind of play this game with them negotiating. And I had to write letters to him to get permission to leave, in keeping with what I'd heard after the fact about him being very full of rage and yelling, got very angry letters back from him full of capitals and underlines and anger and shaming. And I knew I had to get out. But I wasn't completely sort of sure that, yes, this was a cult, yes, this was bad. I still had doubts, and I was still questioning myself, but I just knew that I was terrified. I didn't want to sleep with this man. And the only way for me to get any sort of clarity was to just get out of the situation so that I could think. So eventually, he gave them permission to let me go. They said, it's too late. We can't let you go now. We have to wait until there's a car in the morning. So I had to kind of spend that night just basically writing to myself in my journal, telling myself to stay lucid and trying to remember who I was, because I was so scared that somebody would come along and plant a Seed or somehow make brainwashed Ashley take over and that I would end up meeting him. So it was just this kind of really stressful 24 hours.

[A]

Long night. Long night of the soul. Perhaps we could say yes.

[B]

Dark night. Long night of the soul. And eventually they had a car. They took me to a cheap hotel and dropped me off there. I checked in and my room was overlooking a graveyard. So just as a coincidence. So I like opened the window shutters and there's just great like tombstones everywhere. And I was like, what is this? Like, what does this represent? Is this the death of innocence? Like, is this the death of my soul? Like, what does this mean? And yeah, I just collapsed onto my luggage. I just remember being on the floor and having what I would imagine a mental breakdown. Looks like, you know, I was just beside myself.

[A]

So far from home and all alone and had this bizarre experience. And your brain's completely rattled. I just, I can imagine you must have been exhausted. You've been up all night terrified, and you've still got such a long way to come to get home.

[B]

Yeah. And I didn't know it was real anymore. And I didn't even know if I was going to go home because I was meant to be going to Romania and to Budapest actually as well to meet up with this friend to do more stuff involved with the school. And I was in this tension of, do I just go to Romania, do I go to Budapest or do I just get a flight home? That's crazy what just happened. And I didn't know it was real anymore. And I really thought I was in a nightmare. And I wondered if I was in a state of psychosis. I genuinely thought, am I going to wake up in a hospital? Am I even in France? Is any of this real? And I was physically pinching myself going, am I in a dream? This feels too horrible, too confusing to be real. I must be in a nightmare. And I was just pacing the city and I went and sat with a view of the Eiffel Tower and it was just so surreal. I was like, here I am in Paris. This doesn't feel real to me. And I just wanted someone, I just wanted someone I knew to kind of walk along the street and just see me and like pull me out of the lie, pull me out of this, this nightmare. And eventually I just made a snap decision to book a one way flight back to Australia and got on that flight and never went back.

[A]

Oh, God, Thank God, thank God. I can't imagine the relief of getting home all the way back down the bottom here to Australia. So far away from all of that and back home with your family and your familiarity. Okay, so I'm imagining a lot of repair, a lot of, you know. Well, I can't imagine. Did you tell your parents? Did you, did you tell people what had happened? Did you seek help?

[B]

Not immediately. I took a break. Month or so, just back at my parents house. And I didn't work. I was just trying to collect myself. I had to lie to everybody and tell them that I had gone to a retreat in Denmark because they have a retreat center there. I said, I'm going on a silent retreat. Which was something I had done before with the school. I'd gone and done a silent retreat, turned my phone off for a week and I wasn't reachable. And I said, yeah, I came home. I just, you know, I just wasn't feeling it. I just kind of started to feel a bit overwhelmed with it all. And yeah, I just gave them a very vague response for why I came home. And then I was quietly in my own time doing lots of reading about cults and coercion and human trafficking and just basically gathering as much information as I could and trying to make sense of what happened. But I was initially too scared to talk about it because I was afraid to break the vows because we'd made these vows on the Bible on our health and our spiritual evolution. And if you believe that you're working with energy and if you believe in the weight and the power of the words that we say and the weight of that, then I was scared to break those vows. I was scared of what would happen to me if I had told people what had happened.

[A]

I get it. I'm superstitious. That's what I call it. I call it all of that superstition. But I'm very superstitious. Yeah. So I can't help it. That's just the way I'm built. And if I feel like I'm, you know, doing something wrong spiritually or whatever, I can't get over it. I can't just move on. I want to. Yeah, gotta fix it. Gotta go through the superstitions to fix it, you know?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I was, you know, it was really. It's really hard to make sense of what's going on when you can't talk to anyone about it. And that's the point. That's one of the mechanisms of that coercion and that control is that everyone is kind of siloed or have these airlocks, you know, between so they can't communicate about what's happening and they can't get that feedback.

[A]

Also, what are your parents like? I get the impression they're salt of the earth, regional Victorians. I just don't know how they would have gone with a immediate conversation about your vows and your spiritual journey and tantra initiations and all that. I mean, were you worried about telling them?

[B]

I was very worried about telling them, yeah. I didn't know how they would take it. My dad is very spiritually kind of open and would talk about a lot of these topics with me. And then my mum was raised Catholic and we were raised Catholic, but then over time, she's also become quite open. And we've always had a lot of spiritual conversations, but this is a lot,

[A]

what you had to lay on them.

[B]

This is a lot. Yeah. And I didn't know the reality of the situation either. I was still trying to figure that out. They weren't the first people that I told, but eventually when I did, I tell them. It all came out one Sunday morning around the table. And I just remember that they were incredibly supportive. And, you know, I've done a lot of training myself on what to do when people make disclosures of abuse. And I could see my mum flipping into that mode and they just, you know, they're saying, this isn't your fault. You haven't done anything wrong. I can't believe this happened to you. It's okay, we're here. You know, they were just. They were just really, really supportive.

[A]

That must have been a breakthrough moment for even your own understanding and acceptance of what had happened to you.

[B]

Yeah, it was. And it was a relief to kind of have it out there because I've been holding onto something and it's really hard to feel seen and understood by people when you're carrying a secret. You sort of go, well, you don't. You don't know what happened and you don't know why I am the way I am or why I think the way I think. So it was a huge weight off my shoulders to eventually be able to talk about it. And then it just started coming, you know, as I just word vomiting. I couldn't stop talking about it for a time. And I think that was probably a process of catharsis and a processing for myself of what had happened. I just talked and talked and talked about it to anyone who would listen until eventually that passed, thankfully. But, yeah, there was a time in my life when I couldn't really think about much else.

[A]

Yeah, fair. I think Fair enough. And as you say, processing just must have been memories coming, thinking, holy shit. And then that happened and then they said that, like, you know, it's hard to. Sometimes I think you've got to pull it out to look at it, don't you, and really see that it happened.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And I was also starting to experience a lot of symptoms of ptsd, so I was trying to practice yoga and then all of a sudden I couldn't pract practice yoga anymore because I'd start keeling over and shaking and crying.

[A]

Because it's triggering now. Now it's connected to that experience.

[B]

It's not anymore. I practice yoga again now. Good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But for a time. For a time it was triggering and so was meditating. Was triggering as well, because a lot of the meditative skills that I had learned were associated with the school and I had to kind of throw the baby out with the bathwater because all of these beautiful tools and traditions and rituals that are actually really good for us became the same triggers for my trauma and my pain. So it was really paradoxical and confusing.

[A]

And, yeah, they bastardised really good, positive things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a great moment in the documentary that I think is quite profound because, again, these days we're talking a lot about trafficking and really, I think, waking up to how prevalent it is around the world. There are more enslaved humans on the planet Earth today than there ever have been before. And sexual trafficking is a big part of that. And you talk about sort of realising having a moment where you thought, I want to do something about this, but how? And where. And as you said, I couldn't exactly walk into the police station in Horsham and say, I felt, you know, I was coerced and all of that in France and expect them to do something about it. Like, where do you. Yeah. How do you. If you have been trafficked internationally, who do you call?

[B]

That's a good question. You know, I didn't know who to call and. And I tried multiple avenues before I finally felt like we were heard and we got linked in with the relevant authorities that actually could help us. Like, the first thing I did was, was lodge a complaint with Crime Stoppers International because he was. Or maybe it was through Interpol, you know, because he was wanted at the time. Nothing ever came back from that. I never heard back. That's crazy.

[A]

He's an international fugitive and you've just been in the same house as him or, you know, you've got really good information about where he is. And they didn't call you back.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, you know, given them a tip or, you know, put lodged something and nothing happened. And the other thing I did was contact the Royal Charity Commission in the uk, because they're a registered charity and they get all sorts of benefits for that as well as credibility, you know, oh, they're a registered charity. Well, you know, they must be all right. And I reported to them what I'd. What had happened, but because I wanted to remain anonymous at the time, they said, we can't really do anything with it and it sort of just got put into a file, I think. I think they approached them, maybe asked them about it. Of course, they would have denied everything, but nothing came of it. Later on, I approached them again and said, I don't care about anonymity, I'm quite happy to put my name to this, I'm lodging a complaint. And again, I'm not. I don't recall anything happening that I could see from it. And I. I mean, understandably, it's not under their jurisdiction, they can't take legal action against them, but I. I at least hoped maybe they would be stripped of their charity status, which they weren't. And then the police in the uk, through the Yoga Teachers Union, I had. They had said that there was a, you know, they were going to open a case. And I said, great, who do I get in contact with to take my testimony? And the person that I had been given the contact that was meant to link me in with them didn't get back to me. And then I sent about one or two other emails again, saying, you know, I'm here, I'm ready, can someone take my testimony, please? Nobody ever contacted me, no one ever took my testimony. So that was another dead end. By this point, I was thinking the only other place I could think of going was the media, because sometimes having your story public can then put pressure or actually give information, and then maybe something might come of that and also

[A]

it can help other people find you.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I'd started a Instagram page by this point as well, a cult awareness page where I was trying to spread the message to anybody that might benefit from it. And I was having people reach out and connecting with people that had been involved with the school through that. And then my. There's an article that got published and there was this man in France who's in the Docu series and he had these. These kind of keywords set up that he would be alerted if they had come up in an article.

[A]

Google Alert.

[B]

The Article I was in hit all of them.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Romanian goo? Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Because why? Because he. He was investigating GB himself or what happened.

[B]

Yeah, he. He, for whatever reason was. Was invested in this case already and he had it set up. So words like Romania, Yoga, tantra, all these. These words and this article had all of them. So he suspected that he might be in hiding in France because that's where he'd previously been hiding, but he'd never had any tangible evidence or any testimony since his previous escape into hiding. That. That's where he was. And all of a sudden he has this article from 2018 that's sort of confirming he is in France. And I went there. Then he was able to. He's connected to the French police, or he had a contact within the French police and then he started to collect testimonies and forwarded them onto the police, which linked us in with Khaimard, which is the coolest thing that actually exists in France. It's. It's a. It's a police unit that specifically specializes in cult organizations and cult abuse. So abuse by abuse within a cultic organization.

[A]

So is that sort of peculiar to France? Do most countries not have that, not have a task force dedicated to cults?

[B]

No, that's really unique to France.

[A]

Wow, okay. Yeah, brilliant. Of all the countries that this bloke could have set himself up in, then he's. It feels like uncharacteristically done something really sloppy here and set up in the one country that has a police unit dedicated to crimes in a cult context, to cult crimes.

[B]

It's very ironic. And yeah, so eventually we got linked in with Khaimard and they had. They took our testimonies online and it was several months after the testimonies that the arrests were made. And I think that is a reflection of just how big the case was and just how much they wanted to make sure that they got it right because they didn't want to, you know, arrest him without a strong enough case because then he might just. Just get away again. So it took a really long time.

[A]

Okay, so he's arrested in France by this crack unit. How many? You said a couple of people were arrested. Who else was arrest?

[B]

There was a few dozen, I think.

[A]

And what sort of charges are they facing?

[B]

That they're facing charges of human trafficking, rape, abusive, weakness of persons as part of a. As part of a gang and. Or, you know, abusive, abusive, weakness and vulnerability of a person. Sequestration, which is that. Oh, kidnapping and sequestration. So that's. You Know, kidnapping, taking and keeping them

[A]

captive, essentially in a place.

[B]

Captive, essentially, yeah. So these are the, the sorts of the charges and yeah, there's also some quite high up leaders that were arrested in Georgia.

[A]

I believe they were in Georgia the country or Georgia, the state of Georgia?

[B]

Georgia the country.

[A]

Okay. So the Central European sort of. Okay. Wow. Now when was this, by the way? When were these arrests?

[B]

This was in November 2023. So coincidentally, the docu series was already underway at that time and they were in Australia with us. And the day before I'd been doing some filming with them and talking about how, you know, I just felt like nothing was happening and I was scared that nothing was going to happen and he was just going to get away with it. And then literally that night we found out that he'd been arrested. So it was, it was quite remarkable that they were kind of there and able to capture the real authentic response to that arrest.

[A]

It's so unlikely, isn't it, from your story that you, Ashley, would find yourself in this situation? All of it is unlikely, but it's so unlikely that it would end this way. Not that it has ended per se. Tell us where we're at at the moment. Is he still in custody? Has he been convicted?

[B]

He's still in custody. It hasn't gone to trial yet. I think technically, Technically nothing's guaranteed to go to trial, but I'm, I'm confident that it will go to trial, but I don't know when. I think because it's such a big case, probably not quickly. No, I'm not sort of holding my breath. So he's been in custody now since 2023. So, you know, I, I think that in itself sort of points to how strong the case is. You know, you can't just hold somebody without a pretty strong case, I think.

[A]

And he would have great lawyers. Right? I'm sure he's got lots of money. That's, that's possibly. It's one of the first two rules of having your own cult is get lots of money out of it. So I'm assuming he's got great lawyers.

[B]

Well, it's actually a good question. I'm assuming he's got lawyers. I'm not sure how good they are, but I mean, he would certainly be sinking a lot of resources into them.

[A]

What about the groups around the world, the various outlets that come under the umbrella of his organisation? They tell us what their reaction is publicly and privately. As far as, you know, are they still supporting him? Are they still. Are they raising money to his defense,

[B]

where are all those people supporting him? They've started a website that's basically saying that that's trying to debunk everything that's in the documentary. So they've kind of like trying to like put forward their counter argument that is actually very self incriminating. If you, if you read what they write, they sort of not actually diffusing anything, they're just sort of admitting guilt really. And the schools are still running, just things are carrying on business as usual.

[A]

Did everyone who was arrested that, that day, are they all still incarcerated somewhere? Like, have some people already cases been dropped and where's everyone else at?

[B]

Many were released and I'm not sure exactly how many are still in custody, but I know that it's only a fraction of the number that were arrested at the time.

[A]

That would be to be expected, I would think. I think that seems to be the way it goes in these sorts of cases, doesn't it? There's a big net thrown on that first day and then one by one people are filtered in and filtered out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So as long as he is still in custody in France, do you know, has anyone spoken to you about possible outcomes in terms of sentencing and things like that? What are they, what are the prosecutors hoping for?

[B]

No, no one's really talked about that. I guess my, my assumption is that he won't be getting out of jail. Well, my hope is that, you know, he will, he will remain in custody until the end of his days, but I can't say for sure what, what will happen. But that's, you know, I like, that's what I believe will happen. I don't, I don't think anything else. I can't, I can't see him getting out. Like, I just, and I really hope he doesn't.

[A]

Are you giving evidence in the trial?

[B]

Yeah. So I went to, I went to Paris in 2024 and met with the magistrate to give my testimony and additional evidence. And yeah, so if it goes, if and when it goes to trial, which I believe it will, then yes, I will be, I will be there to, to support the case in whatever way I can. We have, we have an excellent lawyer and if anybody, also if anybody listening has been involved with the school and wants to join in with legal proceedings, please reach out because, you know, if, if, if this has happened to you or something similar has happened to you, your voice matters and it's, it's not too late to, to kind of get involved.

[A]

If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU. Indigenous Australians can contact 13 YARN on 13139276 or 13 yarn.org AU.

[B]

The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.