Forgotten Bombs: The Other Bali Bombings

Summary

Australian True Crime: "Forgotten Bombs: The Other Bali Bombings"

Date: January 4, 2026
Guest: Joe Frost (survivor and host of the "Forgotten Bombs: Bali 2005" podcast)
Host: Meshel Laurie (Bravecasting)

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode shines a light on the largely forgotten 2005 Bali bombings that followed the more notorious 2002 attacks. Through survivor Joe Frost’s perspective and research for his podcast "Forgotten Bombs," the discussion delves into collective memory, survivor experiences, trauma, and the social and political context of terror attacks and their aftermath, with the goal of reclaiming space in Australia's collective memory for the 2005 tragedy and its impact.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Forgotten 2005 Bali Bombings

• Public Memory Lapse

  • Despite regular memorials for the 2002 bombing, the 2005 event is absent from collective memory.
  • Joe recounts calling Randwick City Council (01:25) to discuss a 20th-anniversary commemoration and being met with blank confusion about the "second" bombing.

    “...you have something to do with the first Bali bombing every year, and you’re not even aware that there’s another one...that’s pretty much the case for a lot of Australians.” — Joe Frost (02:01)

• Why "Forgotten"

  • Joe reflects on the podcast title, initially feeling silly, but realizing it underscores this lapse in memory (01:25).

Survivor Experience: The Night of the Attack

• Background on the Group

  • 45 people from Newcastle (simple holidaymakers, parents, and teens) had traveled together, cautious but determined to reclaim fun in Bali post-2002.
  • Parents accompanied teens for added safety (04:15, 05:39).
  • Casual, relatable detail: the exhaustion and family wrangling common to group holidays (06:46).

• Atmosphere at Jimbaran Bay

  • The host and Joe reminisce about the beauty and serenity of the beach scene (08:06–09:41), highlighting the surreal contrast to the violence that occurred.

• Moments Before the Blast

  • Guests recall odd absences that night (such as beach hawkers), but Joe resists suspicion toward locals, emphasizing the randomness of such attacks (10:36–11:47).

    “...there is just no accuracy with a bomb...it seems implausible that you would know there’s going to be a bomb and you’d still come to the place where the bombing’s going to be...” — Joe Frost (11:19)

• Attack Unfolds

  • The first bomb: a sudden, deafening bang, initial confusion (12:17–15:05), most assumed it was a gas explosion.
  • Joe’s internal struggle over whether to run (“stupid male pride”—16:11).

    “I didn’t want people to think that I was scared...the things that go through your head when you’re millimetres from death...” — Joe Frost (16:23)

  • Second bomb: Directly hits their group’s table. Joe finds himself face down, burned by sand, stripping to his underwear, and running into the water (16:46–19:12).

Immediate Aftermath, Trauma, and Community Response

• Shock and Instincts

  • Initial belief among survivors: the explosion was far less deadly than reality.
  • Joe and others process trauma by attempting to rationalize (“pop gun terrorists,” optimistic reassurance) and drawing analogies to people living with violence elsewhere (27:07–27:45).

• Seeking Safety

  • Disoriented survivors regroup—Joe, Dietmar (his friend’s father), and others try to find missing people, fearing more bombs might be hidden under the beach tables (22:18–27:07).
  • Kindness of locals: a Balinese man offers shelter and water (31:18).

• Reuniting and Relaying News

  • The group reconvenes at the InterContinental Hotel, where staff were still unaware of the catastrophe (29:22–29:52).
  • Survivors experience the chaos of misinformation and conflicting news reports as they search for loved ones (35:50).

    “We were watching various TVs...some people are watching CNN, some are watching BBC...it was just what the camera footage was showing...game of telephone...I went to bed just secure in that knowledge.” — Joe Frost (35:50)

  • The tragic reveal comes hours later, as Joe’s father (a doctor) briefs the group on the true extent of injuries and deaths (37:34–40:29).

• False Hope and Survivor's Guilt

  • Survivors gave unintentional false hope to children and others about missing family members, not realizing the true death toll until morning (35:26–37:16).

Broader Political and Terrorism Context

• Terrorists' Evolving Tactics

  • Host and Joe discuss how terrorists adapted after the 2002 attacks (04:51), shifting from car bombs (due to increased security) to more unpredictable tactics.

• Australian Diplomatic and Medical Response

  • Notably, Tony Abbott, then-health minister, happened to be in Bali and jumped into action—relaying credit card concerns from survivors, mobilizing logistics for medical evacuation (42:31–44:54).

    “Tony Abbott turning up at the hospital...this isn’t even on the podium of weird shit that’s happened in the last 24 hours.” — Joe Frost (43:03)

  • The story of a survivor who simply asked Abbott, not knowing who he was, to help cancel a credit card—an anecdote highlighting both chaos and the mundane amid disaster (43:06–43:46).

Lasting Trauma and Recovery

• Returning to Bali?

  • Joe has not returned to Jimbaran Bay or Bali, prioritizing new destinations and recognizing it wouldn’t be a relaxing experience. Other survivors have revisited for memorials (45:16–47:54).

• Mental Health and Resilience

  • Joe discusses therapy, the difference in coping styles between him and his father, and how the event shaped his reactions, especially in crowds and around backpacks (48:08–50:15).

    “Everything that happens to you changes who you are...this was a really, really big thing, and it changed who I am, but in ways it doesn’t really bear thinking on...loud bangs still get me a little bit.” — Joe Frost (48:36)

  • Survivor’s support: Joe emphasizes the importance of emotional vulnerability, supportive friends, and not holding guilt about what 20-year-old friends could or couldn’t understand (50:15–53:22).

Investigating the Bombers and Context

• In-depth Podcast Research
  • Joe interviews Nasir Abbas, former member and trainer of Jemaah Islamiyah, who trained the bombers—gaining unique, personal insight into the radicalization process, guilt, and the human complexities of those on "the other side" (54:09–57:47).

    “He actually trained and taught the guys who set up the 2005 Bali bombing...he had a moment of telling me how guilty and awful he felt about what he’d done.” — Joe Frost (56:42)

  • The podcast examines the mechanics, grooming, and psychology behind terror recruits.
  • Host lauds the podcast's ability to showcase the humanity of all involved, including victims and perpetrators (57:47).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Forgetting:
  • "You’re not even aware that there’s another one. And...I think that’s pretty much the case for a lot of Australians." — Joe Frost (02:01)
• On Survivor Guilt:
  • “I didn’t want people to think that I was scared...the things that go through your head when you’re millimetres from death...” — Joe Frost (16:23)
• On Trauma and Rationalization:
  • "...try to think like, well, there’s always someone worse, isn’t there?...I was lucky enough to have Dietmar with me." — Joe Frost (27:45)
• On Media and Hope:
  • “We accounted for everyone...it was like, no, no, we saw her, we thought she was okay, but it turned out she passed away by that point.” — Joe Frost (37:22)
• On Everyday Heroes:
  • "[Tony Abbott] said, no worries, I’ll handle it [credit card]. As you said, he was one of the few people there in 2005 who had a mobile phone.” — Host (43:06)
• On Mental Health:
  • "Everything that happens to you shapes who you are...I had my struggles, but I also had support, and that’s, you know, isn’t that the best you can hope for?" — Joe Frost (48:36, 53:22)
• On Interviewing a Former Terrorist:
  • "He actually trained and taught the guys who set up the 2005 Bali bombing...telling me how guilty and awful he felt about what he’d done." — Joe Frost (56:42)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Public Memory and Forgotten Bombs: 01:25–03:05
• Pre-trip and Holiday Group Dynamics: 04:15–06:46
• Describing Jimbaran Bay: 08:06–09:41
• Moments Before Bombings & Initial Blast: 10:36–19:12
• Aftermath, Searching for Loved Ones: 22:18–27:07
• Reflecting on Global Trauma: 27:07–27:45
• Medical, Emotional Response, Misinformation: 31:37–40:29
• Broader Terrorism Context, Tony Abbott’s Involvement: 42:31–44:54
• Returning to Bali, Trauma and Recovery: 45:16–50:15
• Mental Health, Therapy, and Resilience: 48:08–53:22
• Interview with Nasir Abbas/Jemaah Islamiyah: 54:09–57:47

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Tone and Delivery

Heartfelt, frank, at times darkly humorous and always authentic. Joe Frost delivers vivid, self-deprecating recollections, underscoring both the banality and horror of trauma. The host, Meshel Laurie, is empathetic, probing, and openly emotional, emphasizing compassion while maintaining focus on both personal and broader sociopolitical impacts.

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Takeaway

Joe Frost’s account and his podcast "Forgotten Bombs" shed much-needed light on the shadowed legacy of the 2005 Bali bombings—the ongoing impact on survivors, failures of memory and commemoration, the complexity of trauma, and the continued relevance of asking who is included or forgotten in our stories of tragedy and survival.

For deeper perspectives and survivor voices, listen to the "Forgotten Bombs: Bali 2005" podcast.

Transcript

[Interviewer]

In 2002, Australia's favourite holiday destination, the Indonesian island of Bali, was rocked by three bomb explosions, one outside the Australian Embassy and two in the middle of the nightclub strip. 202 people were killed, including 88 Australians, and jihadist group Jamaaa Islamiyah claimed responsibility. Such is Australia's love affair with the island that by 2005, just three years later, tourism had largely resumed. A group of teenagers from Newcastle were determined to travel there, but rather than let them go alone, many of their parents decided to make the trip as well. In the end, the group numbered over 40, and many of them travelled to the picturesque Jimbarran Bay on the night of October 1st for dinner on the beach. That night, three more bombs were detonated at Jimbarran Bay. Joe Frost was one of the teenagers who organised the trip. He was on the beach of Jimbarran that night and he's produced a podcast about the experience called first forgotten bombs, Bali 2005. He joins us on Australian True Crime to talk about it. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

[Joe Frost]

It felt like a silly title for a little while there because the anniversary came along and I was obviously getting interviewed a little bit. And when people are sort of saying, tell us about this podcast, it's called Forgotten Bombs, that you're sort of saying everyone's forgotten, but that we're really making a big effort to remember at the moment. So I felt a little bit silly for a little while there, but for the better part of the 20 years, it was forgotten. And I suppose, like, a good example was when we were talking about doing an anniversary for the 20 years, I called someone at Randwick City Council and every year they've got that really beautiful. I don't know if you've been. You've seen that the 2002 memorial that they've got on Coogee Beach. Yeah, the three interlocking, like, it looks like people sort of leaning on one another. It's. It's gorgeous. Yeah, I think it's really wonderful. And so every year they have a memorial for the 2002 Bali bombing there. And I called Randwick City Council and spoke to one of the people there who's got something to do with that memorial every year, and he couldn't have been more helpful. He was really, really lovely and sort of like, midway through our conversation, he just goes, what Bali bombing are you talking about? Because, like, I only know about the 2002 Bali bombing. And you just have to laugh where you're like, mate, you have something to do with the first Bali Vomic every year, and you just. You're not even aware that there's another one. And it's. I don't think that's. I don't think that's uncommon, you know, even for someone who has an active role in memorializing the first Bali bombing. Every year that there was a second one just wasn't even on his radar. And I think that's pretty much the case for a lot of Australians.

[Interviewer]

I think it's a great title and I think it works because I was surprised by the title. But then as I'm listening, I get. Reveals itself to me. As you talk as a survivor about experiences like that, I realised, oh, I feel terrible. Yeah, you're right, we do. Maybe we lump them in together. Maybe we talk about the Bali bombings and immediately think the sari club. I mean, I even had to remind myself about the embassy bombings. You know, in both cases, embassies were targeted, which I'd forgotten about. That had passed me by. But for me, Jimbarran Bay is maybe one of my favourite places in the world. It's a place that I spend a lot of time. I've. I've spent time there for many, many years. So maybe for that reason it stays in my mind. I'm there probably at least once a year. I'm sitting at those cafes, I'm sitting on the beach at a table and I'm trying to imagine that night. And you describe it unbelievably. I've heard a lot of people talk about, you know, give me witness accounts of events, but yours is astounding, I.

[Joe Frost]

Suppose, just to give a little bit of the broader context. So it was a group of. There were about 45 people from Newcastle. We all came over to Bali in. It was the. The last sort of days of September in 2005. And it had started out as a group of mates who were sort of 16, 17 years old. And I. I got the version of it from the parents for the podcast. And then sort of, which didn't make it to air, was that I got the version from the boys themselves. And I was like, oh, this is slightly different.

[Interviewer]

It was great because it also goes into, you know, it was only three years after the first bombings. And so I remember that period of time. I think I, you know, gave Bali a miss for maybe a Year, like, we. We got back to business as usual pretty quickly in terms of going to Bali. But I remember the security being stepped up. I remember them looking for car bombs all the time, always with the mirrors under every car as you went in and out everywhere. And you go into the fact that the terrorist organisations responded to that. Again, in your research, it's unbelievable that, yeah, they realised, okay, we can't do car bombs again. But I love that the boys, the kids, they're 17, they wanted to go by themselves. And the mums went, well, no, that's not happening. But as we do, they went, we'll come with you. We don't want you to miss out. We'll all go.

[Joe Frost]

And so, you know, it started out as, I suppose, probably about half a dozen boys. And then their parents got involved. And then, you know, other parents came and other families came. And so I think my family were in the sort of the second wave of families invited. I was the oldest of my siblings that were there, but my youngest brother would have been 10 at the time. So, you know, there were. There were kids. He would have been the youngest kid there, but, you know, sort of kids age 10 through to 17. And then myself and my friend Alita Letter wash, who was 21, I was 20. And then, you know, a big group of parents, so all told, about 45 people on the Saturday we went and we did this cultural tour where we, you know, got on a bus and went off into the countryside there, sort of went up and went to the markets, went to Ubud and, you know, had this. What was it? It was a lovely day, but it was. It's a big day and obviously Bali is really hot. And the bus didn't have air conditioning and the bus driver didn't have an off switch, so everyone was just sweating and this dude just didn't stop talking.

[Interviewer]

And the traffic, even in those days, the traffic's hardcore when you're driving a bus around Bali. Long.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah. So, yeah, it had been a really long day and we got back to the hotel and the bus driver said, look, does, you know, as an added extra, would anybody like to go for dinner on Jimber and Bay? And, like, all the kids were just, like, hard. No, absolutely not. Which, of course understandable. And I think a bunch of the adults sort of said, yeah, like, let's go do that. And I was on the fence. I was. I was sort of leaning towards no, but had an hour to decide and I went for a swim and I had a chat to my dad and he Said, look, your mum and I, we're not going to go because we like the, the kids don't want to get back on the bus and you know, we'll hang around with them. But he gave me a little nudge. He was like, look mate, you know, it's going to be this beautiful fresh seafood. It's, you know, this gorgeous sunset. Like, you know, what's to lose?

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Joe Frost]

So we all went along and there were, I think it was 16, like parents sort of people in, aged in their 40s and 50s. And then a leader who as I say was age 21 and myself and yeah, and I was 20 at the time. And so we, we went to, to one of the Warungs there called Nyoman.

[Interviewer]

Can you just, can you describe for us Jimbarrum Bay? Jimbarrum beach, that, that area again, it's one of my favorite. It's incredibly beautiful. It's like something out of a movie to me or a magazine.

[Joe Frost]

But you know, it'd be so bold as to ask you to describe it because I've not been there in 20 years and I feel like I'm fair enough.

[Interviewer]

I did wonder that actually. I thought, I wonder if he's ever been back. Well, you know, it's like the tables and chairs are on the sand and then when the. And then behind you up the top of the sand there are the warungs, they're called in Indonesian, the cafes. And each one of them selling lobster, fresh lobster, prawns, fish. So you're all sitting out on the sand on timber tables and chairs. People are falling off them constantly. Cause a combination of being drunk in the sand and when the tide comes in, it's washing up on your feet and the odd chair washes away and they run out and grab it and. And there's the guys walking along the beach selling toys for kids, light up toys for kids. And it's just like, it's just the most beautiful to me. The most beautiful, relaxing, magical environment. That's how I remember it. And it's sort of nestled between two big resorts, isn't it? On one end you've got the Intercontinental and on the other end you've got the Four Seasons. So there's that however many hundred meters there of restaurants and that. So that's where you guys went that night.

[Joe Frost]

That's unbelievable. Like it just sounds like it hasn't changed at all.

[Interviewer]

It hasn't.

[Joe Frost]

That's exactly how I remember it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Joe Frost]

And I mean like, you know, if it's not broke, don't Fix it. And I guess the only thing that is that, as you say, it's all these wooden tables and chairs on the sand. And even though there are all the different warungs. And then so therefore it's, you know, maybe a dozen different restaurants, it feels like one big restaurant because it's just all those timber tables and chairs on the sand. And so they came down, we ordered some food and drinks, and they went off and they got some drinks. And then we. We waited for food. And we waited for, like, it was probably the better part of an hour. And like, I don't think anyone was particularly suspicious at the time, but in hindsight, it has become a point of contention for, like, well, you just never wait that long for food in Bali. People are. They're on it.

[Interviewer]

And also one of the ladies on your podcast said that there were no guys selling toys and things along the beach that night. And I thought, that's really weird.

[Joe Frost]

I think it was more that they weren't coming up to get in out. I remember seeing a couple of people selling stuff, but they didn't come up to the tables. So they were down on the water there. And I, For a long time, I had the same suspicions of, like, what did they know? And the thing that I keep coming back to is that there is just no accuracy with a bomb. And so if someone. If I knew that there was going to be a bomb at my place of work, I'm not avoiding a table, I'm falling in sick. I'm not going to be there that day. So I have nothing to go on either way. But when people raise these suspicions, my own personal belief, and as I say, I don't have evidence either way, is just that it seems implausible that you would know there's going to be a bomb and you'd still come to the place where the bombing's going to be and just be like, oh, I might avoid the table of white people. Cause there are other tables of white people.

[Interviewer]

I'm so glad to hear you say that, because that's just not my experience of Balinese people at all. And it really hurt my heart when I heard some of the mums in particular, talking about their fear after the bomb that they weren't safe anywhere. They felt like they didn't want to get in a taxi because does that guy want me dead? They didn't want to. You know, they wanted a police escort to the airport because they were scared of being attacked again. And I thought, oh, that's so awful. And the Balinese would be devastated.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah. So we. We waited and I guess we didn't get food, but we got drinks. And that became important because there were bottles and glasses on the table. And I think the sun had set. And then. So I was facing away from the ocean. I was looking up, you know, inland and had the. The ocean at my back. And I just heard the. Just the loudest bang I'd ever heard in my life. Going off to my left, which was up to the. The north of the beach. And I sort of scrambled to my feet and I gripped the top of my chair and just sort of acting out of. I guess it was just a. Like, it was involuntary. I didn't. I didn't have a moment of. Of thinking about what to do. And Alita, who was the. The other one, who was 21, she. Her parents were there, and she sort of had a moment of. She called it clarity. And funny enough, I didn't mention it in the podcast, but we. We'd had a discussion maybe two or three days before. We'd been sitting by the pool, and I'd been going out at night. I'd been going out to the pubs or whatever, having a few drinks and enjoying myself, and she hadn't. And she'd said to me, like, I think this is a dangerous thing to do. You know, like, they. They targeted nightclubs last time. And I. I said to her, I was like, alita, if you come to Bali and you were gonna go to the pubs and you don't because you're scared about being attacked in a terrorist attack, you're letting the terrorists win. So, like, I'm doing my part here, like, I'm fighting terrorists, fighting terrorists.

[Interviewer]

But we were all saying that at the time. That's why I went back to Bali. That's what we were all saying at the time.

[Joe Frost]

So you've got to continue to live your life. So she. She got up and. And ran. She sprinted off away from where the. The noise had. Had gone off from that loud bang, had ran to the southern end of the beach, went.

[Interviewer]

What's really interesting to me when you talk about that moment is how many people assumed it wasn't a bomb. How people in your group, people on the beach, a lot of people thought it's a gas cylinder or something like that, wasn't it? There was quite a few moments of people kind of standing there chatting and wondering, what was that?

[Joe Frost]

I think it was a response of like, just trying to maintain calm. I think. I think logically they probably knew what it was, but if you don't know for a fact, don't jump to the assumption. And let's. And also, it's rare that panicking is the right response.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Joe Frost]

So I think that was probably the thing to just be like, let's all just stay calm, stay, stay chill. You know, like people are already. Because there's, you know, maybe hundreds, if not a thousand people on the beach and a lot had immediately, you know, probably been close enough to know exactly what it was. So there was, it was a panic stricken situation. People screaming and running into the water and, you know, just getting out of there. Whereas, yeah, at our table, for the most part, you know, there had been the. No, no, it's probably just a gas bottle exploding from one of the barbecues. Stay calm. But we should probably start to think about getting out of here. Like the, the night's over either way. All that said, you know, we're talking about the space of 30 seconds between the first bomb going off, a leader running, people sort of deciding what to do. And I just remember gripping the top of my chair and I had this moment of like, I should run. And every part of me was saying, run, run, run, run, run. Get out, get out. It was like this ego and like stupid male pride of being like a leader. Ran. I don't want to be. Look like I'm scared like a leader. And so. And like all these people who are also like adults, and I didn't want them to think that I was like. I just didn't want people to think that I was scared. I was just like the things that go through your head when you're millimeters from death and you still have a moment of like. But what if people think I'm. I'm. Yeah, what if people think I'm scared? It's like, dude, you should be.

[Interviewer]

And I mean, you're talking about. You're literally looking to your left, which is where that first explosion, the sound of that came from. To your right, I believe, are the Zelensky's. Mr. And Mrs. Zelensky.

[Joe Frost]

Yes. So to my left was where the bomb had come from. And I'd been sitting next to Penny Anisich and her husband Paul came and stood behind her and just sort of put his hands sort of protectively on her shoulders, as I recall it. And then to my right were Fiona and Colin Zelensky. And I wasn't looking at them, I was just looking towards where the blast had come from. And then the next thing I knew, I was just face down in the sand. And it was pain. But, you know, when something so otherworldly happens, your body goes into shock, and it's like your brain sort of says, yeah, it hurts, but we're not going to. That's not important right now. So there's more important things. We'll deal with the pain later. And so I remember that it hurt, but that it wasn't a pain that I was particularly conscious of, but I was face down in the sand. I had no visual of what was going on. I just had that flash in my mind that I think anyone, you know, who's old enough to remember the Sari Club would have seen. And it was just that burning building. And I'm. I'm unable to see anything, but I felt a burning sensation on my legs, and it. And that fire in the Sari Club flashed through my mind, and I thought, my legs are on fire. So I jumped up and I pulled off my board shorts, and I sprinted into the water. Getting to the water, I sort of thought, all right, I'm safe now. And there were hundreds of people in the water, all screaming and yelling. And at that point, it was just me. I'd lost everybody else that I'd been with, and I sort of had a moment to assess what was going on, and I, in that moment, realized that I hadn't been on fire. I wasn't on fire. And what it turned out was that it had been. The sand had whipped up from the blast and had sprayed my legs, and I'd got, like, sandblast from it. And, you know, it's a burn, but it's a friction burn, not a flame burn. But as a consequence, I was standing there in. Yeah, just. Just a pair of undies and my Rift up shirt. So it was. It's not the ideal. It's not exactly the clothes you want to be wearing in a situation like that.

[Interviewer]

I love how you talk about that in the podcast, by the way. It's so down to earth, and it's great. And too. Too often we. When we're doing things like writing books or making podcasts, we forget to be just real and just talk about how. How we really felt, because it's a bit embarrassing. And I love the fact that finding yourself in this horrible situation in your undies and how that's just adds to the whole shitness of the story. It's great. But what had happened in that period of time, as everyone is looking to the northern end of the beach, where the first explosion had come from, Is that where you guys were at the Southern end, another bomber had approached your table, is that right, when you were looking the other way? Yes.

[Joe Frost]

And so Obama had come up and look, what went through that person's mind in the final moments of his life, we'll never know. But in my research was found a copy of the plan that they were working off and it had said explicitly, target white people. And so we had been, you know, a table of 20 white people. It seems logical that we had been a fairly clear target. And yeah, so this person walked up and wearing a bomb that was, it was full of shrapnel. And for years I had thought that it was a mixture of ball bearings and glass, but the glass had actually been the glass that had been on the table. So the bomb goes off, the glass smashes and, you know, blasts out along with the rest of it. And so because people had suffered glass cuts and had bits of glass, you know, lodged in their skin, but it turned out that had just been from the glass that had been on the table itself and rather it had been explosives and ball bearings that had been within the backpack itself and yeah, went off at our table and. And, yeah, and killed three people.

[Interviewer]

If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you, you can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800-Respect.org au or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 11, 14. So you were just saying that you found yourself in the ocean, but, you know, surrounded by people, but alone in the sense that you didn't know where your people were. You don't know the bombs are finished yet, or you don't know if they've finished yet. You don't know if you know. How do you do? Were you ready to run then, like a leader?

[Joe Frost]

I mean, I had, I'd run into the ocean and quite what to do from there. Like, I mean, it was one of those situations where it's like, I just let this stand here for now because as you say, we didn't know what it was and whether it was over or not. And the, the very concept that someone would kill themselves, to kill others was just, I, I couldn't even fathom it at that stage. It was. And so that was nowhere near my, my frame of reference. I did not think that that was what had happened. I Hadn't seen the first one. I'd felt the second one, but I hadn't seen anything. And so my logic, based on the way that I'd fallen and just like, what. What else could it have been was maybe someone's planted a bomb under our table. And that's. That's why I've blown sort of the way that I have on the angle that I have that, like, it was. It was the. The closest thing I could come up with that made sense, because why would you kill yourself? Why wouldn't you just plant a bomb somewhere and put a timer on it to go off around about sunset when, you know, people will be there, the table will be full? That, like, that just made sense to me. And so I need to find other people. I need to find the rest of. Of my group. And I guess most importantly for me was I needed to find a leader. My mom and my mom are best mates. Her dad and my dad are best mates. She's, I don't know, 11 months older than me. I've known her my whole life. She's my oldest friend. You know, we're family. So I was in the water and I just started to yell her name, and then I heard someone else yelling her name, and I went splashing out of the water and followed the sound. And I found her father, Datema, and. And. And he grabbed me and we hugged and he said, oh, those bastards. And then we just started looking for his wife and his daughter because he'd lost both of them. And what had happened was Alita had run and then Julia had run after her, and Datema had walked slightly away from the table to get a better perspective of what had just happened. So he hadn't seen them run off. And then obviously what had happened had happened, and we'd sort of lost everyone. So he said, you know, where are they? I said, look, I saw a leader running to the south. So we started walking south and we walked, you know, as far as. Until the sand. It wasn't that the sand stopped. It was that there was nothing else on the sand to the south. It was just like, look, there's nobody else. There's nothing more here. Maybe at some point they've turned and gone to the north. So we turned and we walked to the north, and we got back towards the tables and we had the idea of, look, maybe everyone is as reassembled at the bus, and the bus had driven off. But it was like, maybe they've come back and they're at the car park. So we Went up to the car park and there was just this. It was like a huge group of Balinese people, and they were squared off at one another. And it was just so. It was. It was getting very, very intense. People screaming at one another, obviously, in a language that I didn't understand. And I just sort of remember, sort of being like, this looks like things are about to kick off. And I remember then having a moment of looking at all the people in this group and realized that they're all Indonesian. And then there's deep. Ma and I, and I thought, we stand out like sore thumbs. I don't know what's about to happen here, but we. We need to get out of here. So Dean and I sort of made our way away from the. From the. The. The car park, back down onto the sand. And then we had to walk through the tables to get back onto the sand. Thought we'd just keep going north. Maybe that's the way they'd gone. And those moments walking through the tables, it was a minefield. Now, I know logically now, of course it wasn't. I was at no stage in any danger. But during those moments when I had thought that there had been bombs placed under the tables, and there were all these dozens of tables, I was just like, any one of these is another bomb that's about to go off, and my footsteps could be the thing that sets it off. So that was, you know, the height of fear. And I remembered having a moment of, like, thinking that I was, what, 20 years old? And I thought, look, there have been people that, particularly in, say, in the First World War, who would have been my age and would have had bombs raining down on them from above every minute of every day for weeks, months, years on end. I just gotta get through these tables.

[Interviewer]

I think it really speaks to your group of people. I would love to think that it speaks to Australians. I don't know if we're all this compassionate, but you say that now. And one of the ladies you speak to in the podcast who was on the beach that night, she said she remembers thinking, this happens all the time in places like Iraq. Those poor people, you know, like, immediately thinking about. I'm getting shivers just even repeating it to you, immediately thinking about, okay, this happens. I'm not the first it's happened to. I'm not the last. Some people live with this every day as a way of comforting yourselves is really remarkable, I think.

[Joe Frost]

I mean, look, I hopefully never have an experience like it again, but I suppose it's just where the mind Goes is try to think like, well, there's always someone worse, isn't there? There's always someone worse off. And I also just was lucky enough to have Dmar with me. And, you know, as I say, he's my dad's best mate. He. I've known him my whole life, and he is one of the most positive people I've ever met. And having him there helped because he's a mate. And, you know, you always feel a little bit better having a friend and having that point of reference of like, well, someone's worse off. And I'm like, yeah, that. That someone is standing next to me at the moment. He doesn't know where his wife and his daughter are. He must be. This must be the. The worst thing he's ever gone. Like, it's the worst thing I've ever gone through. And I'm safe and all my family are safe. He is in of unknowing right now. That must be killing him. And at some point, he made a joke about that big blast going off back there, maybe perhaps having been a fart, asking me, it's like, was that you? And I was like, oh, mate.

[Interviewer]

Oh, God. You guys are a great advertisement for Newcastle, I have to say, this whole story. So how did you find. You know, there's one lady talks about getting a taxi back. Somebody talks about. In your podcast, talks about running into some nurses who were on holidays, and they bundled them into a taxi and got them to the hospital. You know, how did you end up at the next place and where was the next place for you?

[Joe Frost]

So we went north and ended up in the. I forget whether it's the Intercontinental or the. The Four Seasons Intercontinental.

[Interviewer]

It's my favorite, the Intercontinental. So, again, I can visualize it. And you talk about. This was weird to me. You talk about stumbling in there and. Cause it's so beautiful. Beautiful grounds, big grassy area, a bar to overlook the beach and the sunset. And it's almost like they didn't know what had happened because it's like you wander in in your undies, and they're like, what do we got here?

[Joe Frost]

Which was that moment of like, well, that means nobody else has come here. You know, we'd sort of walk the beach to the point where we're like, there's. There's nowhere else to go but to this, you know, whatever, to the Intercontinental. We walked in and said, look, you know, have you seen any more people looking like this? And they just. They had no idea what had happened.

[Interviewer]

I mean, this has got to be at least a few minutes right after the first explosion. It's also like, you know, in Australia, it would be full sirens by that stage, and it would be like, our, you know, emergency services would be arriving, or so we could hear them coming. So I think that's worth noting as well, that in Bali, that doesn't necessarily happen. Not as quickly.

[Joe Frost]

Well, having gone up there and them saying, no, like, you know, we haven't seen anyone, we then thought we would cover the. The. The ground back to the car park along the road in case that had happened. And going that way, that's when the sirens, the cars. And it was. It was military. It wasn't like, I'm sure the police were there too, but I recall military because, hey, maybe police have guns like that in Bali. But there was a guy standing at a roadblock and he had an enormous assault rifle. And we went up to him to sort of say, like, hey, can we come through? We just want to get to the car park to see if we can find our friends. And he was. He wasn't having a bar of it. And a young Balinese man came and translated for us.

[Interviewer]

And.

[Joe Frost]

And it was made abundantly clear that we weren't going to be able to go through. And so this young Balinese man said, look, come to my place, you know, I'll get you a drink of water, and we'll work out what happens next. So he was. He was so kind and so generous bringing us into his home like that.

[Interviewer]

So Dietmar still doesn't know where his wife and daughter are, though, at this stage.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Joe Frost]

And so I don't know the details of how we got the cab, I'm not entirely certain of, but from this man and his family's home, we got into a cab and drove back to the hotel. Just cars just pouring out of Cuda. And at that point, we'd heard there had been another bomb in Kuta. So it was, you know, if. If you. If we were uncertain as to the truth of that, it was well and truly confirmed. Because on a Saturday night, cars aren't coming out of Kuta at that rate. You know, like one car going into this party city and a thousands of cars pouring out of it. Something's gone wrong.

[Interviewer]

So. So the other bomb had gone off at Raja's restaurant. And I guess the feeling, and this is what terrorism is designed to do, is feeling like it's just everywhere. You don't know what's next. You don't know where it's gonna be next. It feels like it's surrounding you. It reminds me of the September 11th. Anyone old enough to remember that night in Australian time remembers the feeling that, has it stopped? Is it still going? What's next? Where's next? So I guess that's the, that's the environment they've tried to create and they have, yeah.

[Joe Frost]

And I mean, you know, I think people on the, on the podcast speak about, you know, someone saying, I'll take you to the hospital. And she said, no, no, they'll attack the hospital next, you know, and that's sort of where you're at, just nowhere is safe. And we got back to the hotel and. And my family were, were waiting and yeah, they were pretty obviously very emotional. They'd heard conflicting reports as to what had happened. There had been stories that I'd been accounted for and then it had, you know, been said, no, no, he's not at the hospital, we don't know where he is. And so they'd been obviously terrified. But I turned up, you know, in one piece.

[Interviewer]

But also your parents were effectively babysitting a lot of other people's kids, weren't they? Because they said, look, we're not going out, so if you guys want to go and you want to leave the kids behind were here. So they were dealing with a lot of kids not knowing where their parents were, what had happened to their parents.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah, yeah. So there must have been. There'd be 20 odd kids, as I say, aged between sort of 10 and 17. And all the parents, bar my folks and, and one of the other mums, Geraldine o', Connor, had had stayed back. And so then it was left to the three of them to sort of oversee things. But when I got back with Dietmar, my dad is a doctor, and he immediately, with the two of us accounted for, was just clicked into work mode and was like, I've got to go to the hospital, I need to help. So he jumped into the cab that we had been in and he made his way off to go and help with the situation medically. And that then left my mum and Geraldine o' Connor as the two adults back at the hotel, sort of trying to keep a hold of things with, with all these kids who, yeah, just petrified, not sure where their, their parents were. And throughout the course of the night, you know, kids came to me and said, look, have you seen my parents? And I just said to them, I haven't, I haven't seen anyone. But what I genuinely believed was, look at Dietmar, look at me, we're fine. Everyone that We've seen thus far and heard from thus far is okay. And I use the phrase pop gun terrorists. These guys have turned up with a bag full of fireworks and have given us the fright of our lives. But everyone's okay, so you don't need to worry about your parents. Your parents are going to be fine. And I, you know, look, I. There was no malice, but I relate a lot of false hope to people, you know, regarding the state of people's health and, you know, the, their actual life.

[Interviewer]

At that stage, I probably would have done the same thing. Cause I'm an optimist by nature. And so I'm always like looking on the brightest side of what might have happened. And certainly when you're talking to kids about their parents, I would be saying the same thing. I'm sure they're fine. And you were literally sitting at the same table as them. So for you to walk out the way you did, it would be a reasonable assumption that they were sort of behind you somewhere.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah, yeah. And as I said, it had been, you know, we got reports throughout the course of the night of people who had been accounted for. And we were, we were watching various TVs throughout the hotel, you know, and, you know, some people are watching cnn, some are watching BBC. So we're getting different reports as to what's going on. And it wasn't so much the reports as just the what the camera footage was showing. And we would see people that we knew. And there was this sort of game of telephone going on of like, oh, there's, you know, there's the Anna Sitches, there's the Zolinskis. And so we sort of slowly accounted for people and we're like, I think everyone's taking it is, is, is accounted for. I think everyone is, it feels like everyone's okay. And through such and such as seeing someone and such and such has seen someone else. And then what I had seen, I went to bed and was just like, we're okay, everyone's, you know, they're in hospital, they're accounted for, it's going to be okay. And I went to bed just secure in that knowledge. It was late, like 2, 3 o' clock in the morning. And I went to bed, sort of like, this is all just going to have been a bad dream. We'll all, you know, you know, the holidays ruined. But what are you going to do?

[Interviewer]

One of the, one of the Zwolinsky boys talks in your podcast about seeing his mum on the news.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And realizing later that she was Actually deceased in that video that he was watching. He assumed you have seen her. She's bloodied, but obviously she's okay because she's on the news.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah. Which, yeah, I mean, I, I'd not spoken to them until, well, I speak to them, but I hadn't spoken to them about what they'd gone through until we, we discussed it for that podcast. So, yeah, I remembered those moments of like, we accounted for everyone and I remembered accounting for the Zelinsky. So I was interested to hear what their take on it was and whether I was just remembering it the wrong way. But no, he confirmed it. It was like, no, no, we saw her, we thought she was okay, but it turned out she, she'd passed away by that point and they were, you know, showing, you know. Well, I, you can't say that the cameraman knew anything beyond. It was just a, you know, another bloodied person who'd been through the attack. I woke up in the morning as, you know, sort of cracker dawn and mum woke me and you have that moment of like, can you just give me a few more minutes, Mom? Like, seriously? Yeah, I'm in holidays and I'm on holidays and it was a pretty big night, like not the kind that you have on a Saturday in Bali, but a big night all the same. I've had about three hours sleep. I need a bit more. And she's just said, look, your father's at the hospital and he wants you to take the passports for everyone and go to the hospital. And I was just in, I, I sort of like, why? Like, what are we doing this board? She said, look, I don't know, but that's what he's asked for. So get the passports and you need to, to make your way there. So I went around and I, I collected the passports from the various rooms from the kids, you know, they gave me their parents passports and along the way I picked up Dietmar who said he was coming with me, and, and Dane Griffiths, whose parents were in hospital as well. And he, he's my age, he was my best mate in primary school. So the three of us made our way into to Sangla Hospital, which is sort of in the heart of, of Denpasar. And we got out, it was probably about 7am, 7:30ish. And dad was waiting for us and he, you know, greeted us at the taxi and gave us a hug and walked us through. And we got to sort of the doors of the, the, the ward that he had been sort of put all the, the Aussies in Our group in. And at that point we just said, look, dad, what's going on? You know, why are we bringing these passports? What's happening? And he proceeded to tell us that everything was not all right and that our assumptions of the evening before were pretty wide of the mark and that people were seriously injured. You know, a woman had lost her eye. Her husband was blinded, and it didn't look like he'd ever regained sight. There were people that had been just peppered with. With shrapnel. And he described it as looking like they'd been blasted by a shotgun. He described Paul Anas itch as basically that he didn't expect him to survive.

[Interviewer]

And.

[Joe Frost]

And then he said, and Jennifer Williamson, she. She hasn't survived. She. She passed away.

[Interviewer]

So at that stage, what a shock for you guys. I mean, yeah, you've genuinely gone to bed thinking, what a crazy story to tell. You know, what we've lived through and to find out how much more serious it is. There's another man in the group who lost the use of his legs, isn't there?

[Joe Frost]

So he was at Rajas. Terry Fitzgerald. And he was. Yeah, with a different party.

[Interviewer]

That's right. And you talk to him as well. Oh, he lost the use of his legs and he lost his son. That's right. He was out with his son and daughter at Raja's. So, again, the more you listen to this podcast, the more you feel the pain of the title.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

You know, the Forgotten Bombs, you just. I feel like it keeps coming back to me and the start of every show, you know, say the name again and it's like, oh, yeah, this is crazy that we don't. We aren't more aware of what happened. And the people that you talk to are so amazing. They're great talent, they're great at explaining, but they're also pretty much universally really compassionate people. You've talked to, people who chose to go to the trial in Denpasar of a man who built the bombs. She talks so compassionately about. I just thought this poor boy when she looked at him in the dock. Yeah, it's an incredible piece of, like, really bringing us to the place, the time, the situation even. Bugger you. You made me appreciate Tony Abbott, and I'm really unhappy about that. Cause when I heard him in the preview, I thought, I'm not listening to that bit. But I did listen to that bit. And him talking about he was health minister time, who happened to be on holidays in Bali, took himself straight down, ran into your dad and the logistics of Getting Australians somewhere. Some of them woke up in Singapore, some of them woke up in Denpasar, some of them woke up in Darwin. Someone has to do that.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

And he coordinated that.

[Joe Frost]

I think I've said it. You know, he turned up at the hospital, you know, wearing a polo shirt and. And he's joggers. So, you know, if you need an indication that he's not there in a. In an official capacity, I think that was it. And it had just been such a constant stream of, what the hell's going to happen next, that Tony Abbott turning up at the hospital. I was like, this isn't even on the podium of weird shit that's happened in the last 24 hours.

[Interviewer]

Right on.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah, yeah. You're down in 10th place.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a great story about one young guy who didn't know who he was, just thought, I know, I've seen him on the news, Bas. I know he's important. And he's asked him for help in canceling a credit card. Cause his mum had said from her hospital bed, my purse is still down there and it's got my credit cards in it down on the beach. And so he just goes and grabs Tony Abbott and says, can you cancel my mum's credit card? And he did. He did. He said, no worries, I'll handle it. As you said, he was one of the few people there in 2005 who had a mobile phone, which today, today we jump on the app and cancel it. But Even, you know, 10 years ago, it was 20 years ago now it was different.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah, but it's funny, like, I think back to, like, why didn't I just text everyone and tell them that I'm fine? And it's like, because I didn't bring my phone with me because it was just a brick that served no purpose, especially in a foreign country. Like, well, I didn't have international roaming that, you know, like, I wasn't a millionaire. That wasn't going to happen. Whereas, you know, these days, it's like five bucks a day or something and you. It's the same as being at home. So. No. But, yeah, back then, to have a mobile phone that actually worked, you know, it just provided a lot of really human. These really simple things that I think you all take for granted until you're faced with it not being available. You know, something. Something as simple as lying in a hotel, in a hospital bed, in a foreign country and thinking, oh, God, my credit cards are on the beach, like, someone's going to pick them up and I'm going to get home and have this crazy bill and I'm going to have to go through all the drama of explaining it and canceling it and all that sort stuff. And particularly for Vicki Griffiths, who at the end of it, I think spent another six weeks in hospital, it's just a drama you don't need. And so to have someone there who just says, yep, I'll take care of it, it's, you know, it's a small thing, but it's an important thing.

[Interviewer]

It's a massive thing for her overall, you know, emotional wellbeing in that moment. And again, it's heartbreaking the, the distrust, you know, from her perspective. She's thinking, well, someone's just tried to kill me down there. I'm sure they'll take my credit card if they come across it. But. Have you ever been back? I understand you haven't been back to Jimbar and Bay, but have you ever been back to Bali? Has anybody else in the, in the podcast ever been back to Bali?

[Joe Frost]

Lots of people have been back and a number of them went back for the 20th anniversary. I, I haven't, I haven't gone back and I, it hasn't stopped me from experiencing the world, from traveling, from doing the things I want to do. I spent seven months going through South America with my, my then girlfriend. And I'll never forget crossing over into Colombia from Ecuador. And the first thing you do as you cross over the border is there's this huge billboard that just says, like, my Spanish isn't great, but I know what terroristos means.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Joe Frost]

And it was a dozen photos and there were just X's on the faces of the guys that had been accounted for. So I remember having a moment of like, well, at least I take it seriously. And, you know, then lived in England for a number of years, traveled through Europe, did all that sort of stuff. And then on our honeymoon, on our way back, moving from England back to Australia, we went through Southeast Asia and went through, you know, Vietnam and Cambodia and Thailand. So I've traveled, I've done a lot of things. And just as far as Bali goes, I guess the main thing I've always thought with it is there's like 200 countries in the world, give or take, and like, I want to get to as many of them as I can. And particularly as you get older, it's like, okay, I'm going on holiday, I'd like to enjoy my time there. And I feel like going to Bali, it would be like, certainly for the first time, it wouldn't be a relaxing break. You know, it'd be there. I'd be heightened, I'd be tense. I'd feel uncomfortable for a lot of the time. And I'm just like, look, at some point in my life, I want to go back. And I really, really thought about it for the 20th anniversary. And this sounds selfish, but, like, it is what it is. I was like, the government paid for people for 2002, the 20th anniversary, to go back to Bali. And I was like, if the government are going to pay for it, if they're going to pay for me to feel uncomfortable, sure. But I didn't want to pay for my own feelings of discomfort. And in the end, they did. They were willing to pay for people to go to Bali for the memorial. But by that stage, I'd been fairly involved in the memorial in Newcastle, and I sort of felt like I needed to be there and bring that one home. So it wasn't to be. And as I say, I think at some stage in my life, I'll go back, but I don't. There's no feeling within me of, like, oh, I'm avoiding it. It's, you know, it's. Or that I'm missing something, or that I need to go back and make my peace or anything like that. It's just. It's just another one of the many countries that I went to once and I, you know, haven't been lucky enough to visit again at this stage.

[Interviewer]

You talk a lot in the podcast about mental health, obviously, and you talk about the fact that you, you know, why am I doing this podcast? Why am I doing it all? Well, because you can basically, you sort of give the impression that you don't feel like it's impacted your mental health negatively in a massive way. Is that fair to say? The load. You talk about the load and that you can carry it.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah. I think everything that happens to you shapes who you are, and everything that happens to you changes who you are. You know, I went for a run the other day, and I tripped over on a particular piece of pavement, and I nearly went sprawling out into the middle of the busiest street in my suburb. And you have that moment of like. Like, if I hadn't caught myself at that last moment, I would have died just then. And you know what? I'm super careful when I run over that piece of pavement now. So, like, the tiniest little thing changes who you are now. This was a really, really big thing, and it. It changed who I am, but in ways that it doesn't really bear thinking on because it's happened, it is what it is. And for a number of years, it meant that I was unable to do certain things with any level of confidence. Being in big crowds, it just didn't work for me. Loud bangs still get me a little bit.

[Interviewer]

You talked specifically about being at a big sporting event and there being too many backpacks. And I thought, oh, of course, horse. I never thought of that.

[Joe Frost]

Like, just that it's funny, they. I can't remember how many years ago it was, but they made a reasonable song and dance about how they had replaced all the garbage bins at Central Station in Sydney with clear bins so that you wouldn't have to worry about there being bombs in the bins. And I'm like, that's great, everyone's got a backpack. Yeah, I'm not worried about the bin.

[Interviewer]

Yes. And again, I don't think like that because I've. It's never happened to me. Yeah. I don't notice backpacks and you do.

[Joe Frost]

Yeah. So I certainly. I had my struggles with it. I have never been worried about asking for help in, like, 90% of situations. I'm. I'm pretty, pretty upfront about when I'm having struggles with almost anything. I'm really lucky that I have super supportive friends and family. So I remember came up with my dad. My dad is obviously had. He saw things that I couldn't imagine and went through things in that hospital over Those, sort of 24 then back in Darwin. And yeah, he had a series of days that I just. I couldn't ever fathom. And I asked him at some point, like, did you ever want to go see a mental health professional about that? And he said, no, I've got mates. And I was a bit like, oh. And so I was like, a bit like, oh. Like, I don't. I don't want my dad to know that I'm going to see a mental health professional. And it wasn't until later on that he was like, mate, that's me. I'm not you. And what works for you, works for you. And what works for me works for me. Like, don't ever think that I know, like, you do what you got to do, mate. Like, he's always super, super supportive. And obviously my mom, you know, she was the one I called when I said, I'm not dealing with things well, I need. I think I need help. And she organized for me to go see a psychologist. And so, you know, my family were always really amazing, you know, helping Me with that sort of stuff. And it was funny. I lived with a group of mates over that summer. My parents owned this rental property in, in Newcastle and a few of my mates and I, we moved into the top floor and then dad very kindly, slash, foolishly rented out the bottom floor to more of my mates. So there were eight of us living in this two flats and it was just the best summer ever. But that was the summer that followed on from Bali. So we were partying, we were having a good time and I, you know, I don't want to pretend like I was miserable or anything, but I was going through some different stuff than the rest of the boys. And one of my mates listened to the podcast and he sent me a message recently and he said, look, I'm really sorry that I wasn't a better friend to you during that period. I just sort of thought, mate, you were the best friend that you could have hoped to have been. You know, you were a 20. You were 20 years old. Never mind that very few 20 year olds have any of the emotional maturity to deal with basic stuff that people are going through. This is, I would hope, a completely unique situation that none of us have any experience with and none of us will go through again. And I just remember all my friends being so amazing for me and I'm sure they have those moments of like, oh, I should have said this, I should have done that. And that's the kind of thing that you think, yeah, and if you were 40 years old, well, that's how you would have reacted. But at 20, I know you hugged me and you gave me a beer and those were the tools that you had at your disposal and you were always too willing to give them. So I think, yeah, I, look, I had struggles, but I also had support and that's, you know, isn't that the best you can hope for?

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And you make the point that you and these Walensky boys and some other of the young people who were there have, you know, are living great, productive lives. You, you know, great partners, you are fathers, you are, you know, normal, dare I say you have managed to, to move past it. They lost both their parents that day, the Zwolinski boys. There's so much more in this podcast that we haven't covered, which is good news because people need to go and make sure that they download and listen to your podcast. Forgotten Bombs Bali 2005. As I said earlier, the research that you go into, into the bombers, into the, the political context, the regional context, it's a really impressive piece of work.

[Joe Frost]

Speaking to Nasir Abbas was, I think, one of the few things that I was really quite astounded by. I. He was an inaugural member of Jamari Sulameya. And when you. When you sort of get on the trail of this particular subject, a number of sources seem to be used and reused by a lot of people. And so Nasir had come up in a number of the interviews and papers and things that I'd read and researched. And I was speaking to one of my very, very first sources, who. She didn't end up appearing on the. On the podcast, but she was one of the first people that. Speaking to her, I was like, oh, there's something more here. There's a big story. Because she had such amazing context to give me. And we spoke at the start of the whole thing when my wife was about eight months pregnant. And then on my. My daughter's second birthday, I went, I need to call Sydney again, because you didn't exist the last time I spoke to her. So we spoke, and we had another really great conversation. And by that stage, it had been two years of sort of me being initially the church mouse and then growing bolder and bolder and realizing that it's like you just got to ask people, because if you don't ask, they won't say yes, and if you do ask, all they can say is no. And what's the harm there either? So I just said to her, I was like, do you know Nasira Bass? She went, yeah. I went, jack, and I could talk to him. And she went, what are you going to ask him? And I said, oh, I think I'll talk to him about, like, the internal structures of Jamar Islamia and the way that it worked in that regard. And she went, no, no, don't waste his time with that. I. I want you to think of three really important, worthwhile questions, and then you can speak to him. Okay? And I was like, oh, okay. And now tell us in touch with him.

[Interviewer]

Tell us who Nasir Abbas is.

[Joe Frost]

So Nasir Abbas, an inaugural member of Jamari Sumiyah, he, as a teenager in the 80s, went to Afghanistan, and he spent three years in the military academy there. And this was at the time when the Russians had invaded Afghanistan. So he was initially learning guns, bombs, you know, basically how to be a soldier, but also how to be a guerrilla warfare soldier.

[Interviewer]

So not just funded by America. We should point out, in those days, the mujahideen were funded by America and Osama bin Laden. Yeah, that's right, yeah. And so he met Osama, didn't he? He said, oh, yeah, yeah, I met Osama. Yeah, he was around back in the day.

[Joe Frost]

It's, it's a wild story.

[Interviewer]

It is.

[Joe Frost]

And he, he spent three years learning, and then he spent three years as an instructor himself. And then when he went back to Malaysia, reported directly to the founders of Jemaos Lemay, and he helped them to set up training camps. And obviously, having spent six years in an active theater of war, he was, you know, a great resource to them and rose through the ranks to become one of the leaders in Jamaris Lamia. And he actually trained and taught the, the guys who set up the, the 2005 Bali bombing. So he had a moment of, you know, telling me how guilty and awful he felt about what he'd done to teach these guys, you know, to, to do the things that they did. But having been warned, look, don't waste his time. I, I get on the, the, you know, the zoom meeting with him, and I'm just sort of like hearts going a mile a minute, like, what's this going to be like? And he's this just happy, smiling Indonesian man in his 60s, and he's like, jo, hi, it's so nice to meet you. And I was just like, what's going on?

[Interviewer]

But again, it's a great way, you know, of reminding us, telling us, showing us that these are people, these are people. And you do that in many, many ways. If it's the lady talking about the guy that she saw in the dock and, or this conversation that's part of the podcast, that people are people. There's no monsters in this story. There's people who make decisions. Or one guy talks about being groomed. Was it him? Talked about being groomed, being groomed by the organization as a teenager. So you're very successful in that regard. I'm so glad you brought that up, because this is what I'm saying about the so much more that you bring to the story. It's not just your story. You really look into how this happened, why this happened, who were these people? So it's a fascinating piece. Well done.

[Joe Frost]

Thank you very much.

[Interviewer]

Thank you to our guest, Joe Frost. There's a link to his podcast in the show Notes. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-RESPECT on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800RESPECT.org Indigenous Australians can contact 13 YARN on 139276 or 13 yarn.orgau.