Julie Hatton's Death at Darreen

Summary

Australian True Crime – Julie Hatton’s Death at Darreen

Podcast: Australian True Crime
Host: Michelle Laurie (A)
Guest: Natalie (B), daughter of Julie Hatton
Date: April 12, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode centers on the mysterious 1978 death of Julie Hatton, officially ruled a suicide, and her daughter Natalie’s relentless quest to uncover the truth. Natalie contends with decades-old family dynamics, conflicting witness memories, missing evidence, and what she believes to be a deeply flawed original investigation. The conversation provides moving insights into grief, rural family life, and the complexities of pursuing justice in an old, small-town case.

---

Episode Overview

• Main Focus: Re-examination of Julie Hatton’s reported suicide at the age of 22 in outback Queensland, the questionable investigation, and her daughter Natalie’s campaign for a formal inquest.
• Key Issues: Family relationships, rural life pressures, potential investigative failings, timeline inconsistencies, and the difficulties of reopening historic cases.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Aftermath of Julie Hatton’s Death

• From the start, Julie's death was labeled a suicide. The family, especially on the paternal side, reinforced that narrative, emphasizing a lack of empathy:

  “The family were also saying that it was very selfish what your mother did. So that was not, you know, what a mother does.” – Natalie (B), [01:54]

• Natalie grew up angry at her mother due to these repeated messages, only later questioning the circumstances.

2. Julie Hatton’s Life & Family Dynamics

• Julie, a Gold Coast girl, struggled with moving to a rural cattle property and with motherhood, but loved the outdoors and horses.
• The relationship with her mother-in-law was strained, marked by criticism and lack of emotional support:

  “If mum mopped the floors, it wasn't good enough. So then my grandmother would come along and mop the floors behind her...” – Natalie (B), [04:54]

• Material differences, possible jealousy, and being an outsider played into family tensions.

3. Succession, Trust, and Family Loyalties

• As Natalie matured, she began to see inconsistencies in property deals and family stories, especially regarding her father, Paul:

  “It takes a while. But yeah, I finally got to the stage where I just call him Paul because he hasn't really acted like a dad.” – Natalie (B), [08:35]

• Disputes over land, family brands, and financial arrangements eroded trust and sparked further questions about her mother’s fate.

4. The First Doubts – Timeline of Suspicion

• Natalie's suspicions deepened at age 17 after a conversation with her maternal grandmother, who told her:

  “Your father harmed my daughter.” – [11:07]

• Only years later, after personal and financial betrayals by her father, did Natalie actively pursue her mother's case.

5. The Timeline of Julie’s Last Day

• Through meticulous gathering of oral accounts and documentation, Natalie reconstructed the day:
  • Multiple reliable witnesses received phone calls about Julie's death around lunchtime, yet police weren’t formally called until 4:35pm.
  • “Everyone, you've got half a dozen people saying they were either at the property or they got the phone call around lunchtime... police weren't called until 4:35?” – Michelle Laurie (A), [32:33]
• Witnesses described the scene, including the body’s location and timeline inconsistencies, raising questions of whether evidence was manipulated.

6. Police Response & Investigation Flaws

• The original investigation lacked rigor:
  • No crime scene photographs, no forensic testing, and no autopsy.
  • Police who attended the scene noted the unusual lack of blood and absence of ballistic evidence.

  “The strange thing for him was no blood. He just thought it was really weird. Like, he just said it was just too clean.” – Natalie (B), [34:46]

  • Key witnesses never gave statements; some refused and were not compelled.

7. The Quest for an Inquest

• Despite mounting testimonial evidence (aligned timelines, witness corroboration), coronial authorities declined an inquest, citing the age of the case and difficulty in establishing new evidence.
• Natalie points out systemic issues: lack of seriousness around rural women’s deaths, and the risk of setting a precedent if the case remains unexamined.

  “If they leave mum’s case as a suicide in state archives ... how many more women could end up with a gunshot there and be written off for suicide?” – Natalie (B), [45:31]

8. The Ongoing Battle

• Natalie continues to petition for a formal inquest and transparency from the coroner’s office.
• She expresses concern about precedent, the reliability of forensic traditions, and the risk of similar cases being dismissed.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Family Judgments and Silence:

  “Suicide was something that was not ... you never got any empathy from any other family members about it. Definitely not. It was all, oh, you know, she shouldn't have done it.” – Natalie (B), [02:32]

• On Lost Trust:

  “...when you sort of start realizing how much he's lied to you ... you just lose respect.” – Natalie (B), [08:35]

• On Timeline Gaps:

  “Why? Has anyone ever addressed why the police weren't called until 4:35?” – Michelle Laurie (A), [33:12]

• On Official Dismissal:

  “He [the police officer] wanted other people to come over and check it out ... But the sergeant was adamant ... just write it off as a suicide on the spot.” – Natalie (B), [36:30]

• On Persistence:

  “The work you've done in four years is pretty amazing ... I'm trying to push it really hard because all the witnesses, majority of the witnesses that we need are alive.” – Michelle Laurie (A), [45:17]

---

Important Timestamps & Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Initial Family Response & “Selfish” Label | 01:54 – 03:00 | | Julie's Rural Life and Family Relationships | 03:13 – 07:01 | | Trust Issues with Father and Discovery Pattern | 08:35 – 18:44 | | Natalie’s Moment of Suspicion | 11:01 – 12:49 | | Reconstructing the Timeline | 22:16 – 33:17 | | Police Delays, Witness Testimony | 32:09 – 34:46 | | Investigation Weaknesses & Lack of Inquest | 36:16 – 42:16 | | Ballistics, Forensic Anomalies | 42:16 – 44:24 | | Systemic Issues & Precedents | 45:17 – 46:22 | | Final Updates and Call to Action | 46:37 – End |

---

Resources & Further Actions

• Natalie runs a private Facebook group called The Guarantor for those interested in updates and detailed evidence.
• The case is also explored in detail on Graeme Crowley’s podcast, The Guarantor.
• Call to Listeners:

  “To learn more about the case, we strongly encourage you to listen to Graham Crowley's podcast, The Guarantor.” [46:37]

  • Links are provided in the show notes.

---

Tone & Style

• The conversation is heartfelt, direct, and occasionally raw, balancing analytic scrutiny with lived emotional experience.
• Listeners are invited not only to hear facts but to imagine themselves in the shoes of rural women, grieving families, and determined justice-seekers.

---

Note: No one mentioned in the episode has been charged with a crime relating to Julie Hatton’s death.
Content Warning: Discussions of suicide.

---

For those new to the case, this episode serves as both a detailed primer on the facts and a testament to the tenacity required when the system resists reopening old wounds. It’s a must-listen for true crime enthusiasts and anyone interested in justice for the unheard.

Transcript

[A]

This is Australian True Crime with Michelle Laurie. Julie Hatton was just 22 years old when she died from a gunshot wound in 1978, leaving behind her 10 week old daughter, Natalie. For decades, it's been maintained that Julie took her own life, but Natalie has long questioned the circumstances surrounding her mother's death. A coronial investigation found no evidence of suspicious circumstances and ruled that an inquest was not in the public interest. However, Natalie is now appealing that decision, citing unanswered questions, including the reported absence of powder or burn marks, the missing Winchester.22 rifle, and concerns raised by a former attending police officer who has publicly questioned aspects of the original investigation. We also strongly encourage listeners to hear the full story in the podcast the Guarantor, in which Natalie has teamed up with former detective turned private investigator Graham Crowley. It's important to note that no charges have been filed against anyone mentioned in this episode for any crime. Natalie joins us to talk about the loss of her mother, Julie Hatton. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains discussions around suicide. At vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support. So we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay, through the moments in between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist, but we've got the peace of mind part covered.

[B]

So basically I was told that, yeah, my mum committed suicide. I knew it involved a gun. And the family were also saying that it was very selfish what your mother did. So that was not, you know, what a mother does. Like she's not supposed to commit suicide. How could she leave me behind like I was a little 10 week old, brand new little baby. How can a mum do that? And that is why I, you know, essentially didn't like her because, you know, I just couldn't understand why mum would do that to a child. Yeah.

[A]

And you're obviously being encouraged in that attitude as well.

[B]

Yeah. Like suicide was something that was not, you know, you never got any empathy from any other family members about it. Definitely not. It was all, oh, you know, she shouldn't have done it.

[A]

Yeah. Selfish was the big word that was used.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No one. There was no mention of mental health or definitely not. How Did a girl from the Gold coast whose parents lived literally virtually next door to Pacific Fair. And any most Australians will know exactly what that means. It's a beautiful big flash shopping centre. It was in our day, that bit of the Gold coast, but it's beautiful. And so how did that girl end up out in sort of northwestern Queensland on a cattle station?

[B]

Yeah. So mum was family friends with the Gitchin family who are on the podcast. Yeah. So they grew up in Marabah and Julie and Mum, I'm pretty sure they might have went to kindergarten together and then they went to different primary schools I believe. But yeah, they hung out a lot in Maryborough. Mum used to go out to their place and ride horses. This is in Maryborough. And then mum's family relocated from Maryabah down to the Gold coast because her father got cancer.

[A]

Your mum also was struggling while struggling with motherhood. You were as you said, 10 weeks old. A couple of people say, oh look, she just didn't really know how to take care of a baby. She'd never been around a baby before. And simple things like cleaning the bottles in a certain way, sterilising them, but another lady showed her and then that was fine. But wasn't she living with her mother in law?

[B]

Yeah, correct. So my grandparents were actually living with my mum and my dad and so as you can imagine. So my mum's from the Gold coast. She's out in the middle of, you know, the back of Icevald there. It's, it's not too isolated but it would have been very isolated to a person like my mum. Yeah, she did struggle but most newborn mums do struggle with a brand new baby. Like, you know, it's not an uncommon thing like most mums struggle.

[A]

But I was thinking though, you know, the idea of living with the baby's grandmother is normally is about the support of that and being with a woman who's raised kids and knows all that stuff and is going to help you with all that stuff. So what was their relationship like?

[B]

Well, I heard stories like for example, say if mum mopped the floors, it wasn't good enough. So then my grandmother would come along and mop the floors behind her sort of thing. My mum was very good out in the paddock. Like she loved horse riding so she loved going mustering apparently. But when it came to like housework, probably not her favorite task. And to be honest, is it any of our favorite tasks? Not mine either.

[A]

Certainly not.

[B]

If I've got much, I'd rather go mowing.

[A]

I'd rather be out with horses, I can tell you that much.

[B]

Yeah. So Whereas my grandma was extremely strict at running the household and she did, she. She was very good at running a household as far as always spotless. Everyone had meals, she could feed a number of people just so easy.

[A]

It looks a country woman.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Profile. And a lot of women, a lot of those older ladies were very efficient at it. But they've had a lot of practice too to, you know, I'm sure when they were all 17 and 18, they all would have struggled as well.

[A]

I got the impression she didn't exactly welcome your mum like another daughter or anything like that. Your mum described her in a letter as sour.

[B]

Yes, that's it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it seemed to me I come across family members who are a bit jealous of Mum in that regard. Like she came from the Gold coast, she's a very well dressed lady and she seemed like she had a bit of her own money.

[A]

Do you think they thought she was up herself?

[B]

That would have been. They would have put her in that basket probably. Yeah. But everybody I talked to that, you know, went to school with Mum and sure, they all say that her own father spoiled her. Like whatever Mum asked for, she got God sort of thing when she was. She was younger at the Gold coast and stuff. But no one said she was nasty. Like no one said anything nasty about Mum. Everyone's been. And I'm sure somebody would have said something by, by now. Oh, you know, I. Your mum wasn't very nice to me one day or something like this. Yeah. But I sort of got the impression that money to Mum was sort of. Oh yeah, whatever sort of thing. I guess she didn't.

[A]

Well, your dad's family had money, they owned a few properties, they owned a few cattle stations.

[B]

Well, when she. When Mum first came on board in 1976 at that stage, there was a cattle depression going on. Oh, right, yes. So there was a cattle depression going on because Mum talks about with her wedding in her letter. It might have to be. It'll depend on the cattle market and the prices and stuff like that. Yeah. But the other thing I noticed from Mum's letter was she talks about getting a ring that's worth a thousand dollars. And I was a bit like, oh wow, that's a lot of money. Back then, when the cattle depressions on Mum, what were you sort of thinking sort of thing. And I did ask a few other ladies of that era as well and I asked, you know, straight out, how much did you know was your ring and they all said about a hundred dollars or two hundred dollars sort of thing. So mums, the fact that mums was a thousand, where did that come from? Yeah, so my father, he was. That family originally came from Gmary and then When Paul was 10, they bought Darwin in 1968.

[A]

Darrin's the. The property.

[B]

Yeah. In Icefold.

[A]

In Icevold.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Which is a small hamlet in Queensland in rural Queensland. And there's lots of beef farmers and they had.

[B]

There was definitely three lots of cattle yards that I know of.

[A]

Sale yards. Right.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I can remember going to all three as child, you know, like it was huge.

[A]

I noticed you call. You refer to your father as Paul.

[B]

Yes. It's taken me a long time. Like, you know, I idolized my father when I was growing up and. Yeah. And I guess when you sort of start realizing how much he's lied to you and how much he's, you know, like the last 40 years of my life has just been a lie really, you just lose disrespect like for somebody that, you know, lies to you that much. And it's not only mum's story. This actually all came about because he'd lied to me about property transfers, bank loans, brands. There's a whole heap of stuff that he's lied to me about. And yeah, so once you put it all together you just. It takes, it takes a while. But yeah, I finally got to the stage where I just call him Paul because he hasn't really acted like a dad. You know, a father loves their child and. Yeah.

[A]

So when did tell us about the unraveling from the 10 year old girl who adores her dad and her stepmom by the sounds of things and who accepted that your mum killed herself and you're a bit angry with her and thought she was selfish. So how do we get to this point where you're uncovering evidence of discrepancies on the day of her death? You're pushing the coroner to reopen the case, you've got suspicions about how your mum died. When did that start to rumble in your brain?

[B]

When I was 17, I went and saw my grandma. So this is my mum's mum, Nana Lillis. I was at Schoolies. I was at Schoolies at the Gold coast and I thought I'll go over and see my grandma while I'm down here. And I wasn't drunk. I had no alcohol in my system or anything like that. I was clean, I was tidy. I went over and saw my grandma. Anyway, we got into a conversation And I'm pretty sure it was that time I tried my mother's wedding dress on and Mum had a blue wedding dress and it did. It just fit me like a glove, that wedding dress. Yeah, I still remember trying that on. It was. Yeah, it was pretty cool and it was blue, so, you know. Yeah, yeah. It was sort of like, oh, wow, Mum is. Mum is a bit different. Yeah. And I like that. Yeah. To me, it was signaling. Signaling that she wasn't like a virgin as such. I don't know.

[A]

I thought the same thing. I know my mum would have said she mustn't be a virgin.

[B]

So I thought, oh, well, at least Mum's being honest about it, you know, that was what I got from the blue dress. So my grandma actually said to me this. This is her exact words. She said, your father harmed my daughter. She never said, your father harmed your mother. She said, your father harmed my daughter. And by this stage, I was 17. I really loved my dad then. And I kind of walked out of there a bit annoyed with my grandma thinking. She had every right to think that, but I just don't know if it was something she should have shared with me. Like, I was 17, I loved my dad. The devastating part of this whole story is I kind of turned my back on my grandma for many years after that conversation. And then when I had my daughter Grace, my grandma was unwell and she was in a home and it was Julie Gitcham, actually.

[A]

She your mom's bestie.

[B]

Yep. She sent me a message and basically said, get off your freaking ass and go down there and see your grandmother. And you know, what you've been told by your own family is not the full truth. And I did. I went and saw my grandma. I took my little girl with me, guys. And apparently my grandma said to Julie Gitcham, she said, oh, Julie walked in today and visited me. Yeah.

[A]

So she called you by your mum's name?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, so. And the other sad thing was I didn't go to my grandma's funeral, so I was still loyal to my dad. Yep, very much.

[A]

And he did things so that I can understand. I mean, obviously I never saw him parent you, father you. He must have done a nice job because you loved him very much and were very loyal to him. But also he did things like when you were 19, he installed you in a property of your own. When I say of your own. I'm sure the financing was complicated, but you made the point that that was really rare in those days. It probably still is. I don't know, but it was usually the sons of farmers who were installed on their own property or who inherited the property. It was not common for a 19 year old woman to be set up on her own property like you were.

[B]

Well, I wasn't set up on my own property, but I was in a share with my grandparents and my parents. And you're right, it's very rare.

[A]

Must have felt good.

[B]

It did, yeah. So I actually thought, oh my God, my father's different to all these other fathers. Yeah. Like I was thinking, oh my goodness, this whole female's actually going to get given a go here in this family. Absolutely, I did. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought it was all him, that. But I think it was my grandma, Peggy Hutton, who stipulated because at the time Paul needed their backing to buy Dalopra. And Ted, my grandfather, was not a well man. He'd been in intensive care and stuff and. But Paul needed his signature as well. And I'm pretty sure it was Peg's ruling that said, we will back you, but Natalie's name's to go on it. And I think that's what happened more so. And then what happened was it was after I'd finished boarding school, after we bought Delobra. So it was in the year 2000. Yeah, it was actually because Ted's Paul's father. Ted had an accident. And you could tell when he had an accident, Paul was getting, you know, concerns about who's Ted gonna leave?

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

He's land too. Etc. Because the strange thing is in all these land title document searches that I've done is Ted never had a joint tenancy with Paul.

[A]

Right.

[B]

On any of his land holdings.

[A]

Okay, so. So what you're saying is that it wasn't automatic go to Paul. Yeah, right.

[B]

No.

[A]

And he started to worry.

[B]

Yep, he started to worry. And so with the brands, Paul then started burning cattle in his own brand.

[A]

Oh, not the hat brand.

[B]

Not the hat brand. So Paul was obviously, you know, him and I were at wars with each other over this brand business because I wanted him to sit down with his mother and work it out. Like, you know, go and sit down with your mother and try and work it out, like, you know, what's going to happen and stuff like that, because we didn't have a lot of cattle and properties and stuff. And then us three kids were coming along as well.

[A]

So it sounds complicated, but actually it's quite simple and many families can relate to this. So what happened was your grandfather was aging, he was unwell, and your father then was Starting to freak out about what's gonna happen when he dies, who's gonna get what. And I mean, got all these businesses that we're all tied up in. So you're right. It was really a conversation was all required for forward planning, succession planning, actually.

[B]

And.

[A]

But they didn't do that.

[B]

No, no. And it was. And Paul and his mother didn't get along either. And I was like this person in the middle all the time. About four years ago, so I just finished my divorce, it was 2020, and my father said to me, I want to buy you out of your share of your cattle property. I've got a share on a cattle property called Dilopra. And he said, I want to buy you out of that. And I just said, yep, Otto, we can sort it out. But I said, just remember, that whole property was to come to me. It was set up in a joint tenancy. And he said to me, you are off with the fairies. So when he said that, what he didn't know was because I'd just come out of a narcissistic, abusive marriage. I had done a fair bit of research on narcissistic personalities. And. And as soon as he said that to me, I was like, oh, my goodness, he's trying to hide something here. So then I went to the lands department, got the land title document, and it was. Duluva was set up in a joint Tennessee, when it was purchased with my grandparents. So that was Ted and Penghattan, my father, Paul and my stepmother.

[A]

So you felt he was gaslighting you, in a sense, by saying, you're crazy if you think that you're owed more money or whatever from this deal. And that made you think, well, I know I am. So why is he.

[B]

Well, it was just, you know, that was the truth. That was the truth. It was set up in a joint Tennessee to come to me. And also. But hang on, I've also signed all your loans. Like, I've been signing loans since for him and my brothers, half brothers, to keep purchasing more cattle properties. And today they've got 16 cattle properties today. And to be honest, at that time, he offered me half of what it was worth. And I said to him, but hang on, it's worth this amount. And he's offering me half for a start. So when somebody's talking like that, you're just like, what is going on?

[A]

Well, he's not somebody. He's your dad.

[B]

Yeah, that's right. You know, for 16 years, I've been tied up to all their family debts and on the way through, there was another conversation that we had. He said to me, I want you to go up to National Australia Bank. He said, because I've left the Commonwealth bank, we've got a better interest rate with National Australia Bank. I want you to go up there and I want you to sign the paperwork. So I thought he meant that we had left Commonwealth bank and shifted all our loans over to National Australia Bank. So in the last three years, when I asked both banks to give me every bit of paperwork that I'd signed, that was a lie too. It was actually a second mortgage. So basically we kept all the loans with Commonwealth Bank.

[A]

Doubled your debt?

[B]

Yeah. So there was all these, you know, he just didn't tell me the truth about a lot of things. So that was when I was like, well, I wonder what really happened to Mom.

[A]

So it's fascinating. It seems like all these pennies drop years apart, just, you know, things are said to you, things happen to you and it starts to. To add up after years. So when do you actually take this formal? I know. So about four years ago, you're having dramas with your dad financially and all of that stuff. What's your first step? Because now I'm aware and we'll get to it all, you've compiled an incredible dossier about your mother's death. But what's the first step in that? Where do you start? Who do you ask?

[B]

So when I sort of question, well, you know, what happened to Mum? Then I wonder, really, what happened to Mum? Oh, Julie Gitcham, actually.

[A]

Julie G, Yeah, her bestie.

[B]

Because I spoke to her about the guarantoring of stuff because her family had to do it and I had. I wanted to check with some stuff with her, like, you know, so we had that conversation and we moved on to the conversation around Mum. I think she said to me that Ian, her brother, went down, but he was there.

[A]

He was, yeah, she went down and.

[B]

And then I got to speak to Ian and then it just sort of, you know, family member after family member.

[A]

It can see. I can see, though, from their perspective, from you, from Paul's perspective, let's say.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

That it can seem as though Natalie's off with fairies. She's losing it. She's just suddenly behaving crazy. She, you know, from his perspective. All of a sudden she won't just do what I tell her, she won't just sign the bloody thing that I'm telling her to do. She won't. Now she's asking about her mum, so I can see how some people could believe him if he told them that yarn at the pub.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Oh, poor bugger, his daughter's going crazy. And also, though, there's always rumors, certainly in the. In country towns, rumors about, oh, I heard this and I heard that and I heard that.

[B]

Yeah. So there's a lot.

[A]

So much to sift through.

[B]

Oh, for sure. But the stories that I. Oh, you know, the information that I was gathering, for example, another one of Paul's cousins, like, there was a 21st birthday party on in Brisbane. Now there is four people that are still alive today that were at that party. And strangely enough, all their stories line up. This is on a Saturday night, and they heard a phone call come in

[A]

that Mum had died on the Saturday night.

[B]

On a Saturday night. So this is not discussed on the podcast at all because we just felt it was too confusing, like, too.

[A]

Well, I can say now for listeners that that is pertinent because theoretically, your mum died on the Sunday afternoon.

[B]

Correct. So this is what I was going through when I was doing all the research was to try and get this timeline.

[A]

Let's talk about the timeline. And again, we know that, look, memory is a tricky thing. But you have.

[B]

I've got all these people that are a number of people, and I've recorded conversations and I've got all this written down.

[A]

So what we know for sure is that police were called at 4:34.34,35. 4:35 on the Sunday afternoon.

[B]

Correct? Yep.

[A]

To say that your mother has taken her own life. She shot herself at this location next to the tennis courts on the property of Doreen. Right.

[B]

Now she. The police report does not have any location.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. The only thing that's in files is that Paul just said she was down the eastern side of the house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the only thing. But I spoke to another witness and she told me exactly where the body was. So the timeline that I have put together with everyone that's spoken on the podcast and statements. So the timeline that we have put together, it starts off Mum actually phoned up Jan Hutson in the morning in that Sunday morning.

[A]

Jan's a neighbor.

[B]

Yep. She was. Mum was a bit upset. I was a bit sick and Paul wanted her to go mustering, and she just didn't know how she was supposed to go mustering with a baby.

[A]

And. And wasn't she also expected to prepare a big meal?

[B]

Yeah, because what you and Cheryl Hutton would do to come over as well. And normally, you know, the whole family comes over and like, if they're Mustering at darling, it all gets done.

[A]

You got to feed everyone.

[B]

Yeah, feed everyone and. Yeah. Yep. But mom, according to Jan. I didn't know this. According to Jan, they expected mom to go outside and muster all day and then come in and do the meals as well. Which a lot of rural women are well and truly capable of doing that. But that was probably beyond Mom a bit.

[A]

She had a 10 week old baby.

[B]

10 week old baby.

[A]

And you had a few little health issues and things like that.

[B]

So that was.

[A]

You and I both know she hasn't slept.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In months.

[B]

So, yeah, she. She actually phoned up Jan Hutson in the morning and she was a bit upset and she didn't know how she was going to do it, like she was. She was upset. We know that Ian and Ellen Gitcham, they had driven past earlier in the morning to go to Icevalle to run their race horses and they had morning tea with Ian's parents, Mr. And Mrs. Gitscham, and then they drove back to. Back to their property that they were living on. But as they drove past, they drove past Darren and they saw Mum and they waved to Mum, but Ian thought she was actually waving for help. Like after he sort of got past, it sort of played on his mind and it played on his mind for years. And he carries a lot of guilt.

[A]

Their memories are, I think, potentially the most significant because they talk about that. They talk about seeing your mum eyeballing your mum. The lady said, I thought she was waving at us. Ian said, I don't know, I think maybe she was waving us in. But that stuck with him on the day, didn't it? Cause when he said to his wife, listen, let's get these horses home, tidy up, feed the baby and we'll go back.

[B]

Correct. Yeah.

[A]

So he was. And also we gotta remember in those days, forget mobile phones, not everyone had a phone to the outside world. There was like all these party line phones and stuff like that. So you wouldn't just ring her. They wouldn't. They'd go back there and check on her. But they didn't even make it back, did they? Because they got a phone call as they were preparing to go to say, there's been an accident at Doreen.

[B]

Correct. Yeah. So, yeah, they've gone past, got home, unloaded the horse. In the meantime, at Dahrang, you've got Paul, he was mowing the lawn. Apparently Mr. X has phoned up Ken and Jan Hudson.

[A]

Now, Mr. X, tell us about. Obviously you don't want to say who Mr. X is.

[B]

Yeah, I can't because of a undertaking order, because I basically spent two nights in jail. Yeah. A couple years ago because I called Mr. X a liar on a Facebook post. And unfortunately today that is classed as stalking, even though you don't go near the person's house. I never harassed him on phone calls or sent him any harassing type messages. It was the fact that I just called him a liar on Facebook on a public post.

[A]

So he's somebody who's in the orbit of your family and your mother's death

[B]

and he lived just up the road. So, yeah, Mr. X has somehow got to Darwin at lunchtime and he has phoned up Mr. And Mrs. Hutchin, Jen and Ken Hudson at Scotston and has asked him to come down and help. Like he said, look, Julie shot us, shot herself. Can you come down and help us? And her and her husband got in the car and then they went down to Darwin and that's about 15, 17 minutes away. Draw down. So they get down there, they see Mr. X and Paul there. Jan said Mum's body was just out on the lawn not far from the office steps. So that's where she was.

[A]

She saw it there?

[B]

Yep, she saw it there. She was nursing me on the veranda. And when I spoke to Jan, you ask somebody a bit of a trick question just to see how good their memory is as such. And I said to Jan, oh, were you standing out on the front veranda, like, oh, no, no, no, Natalie. It was the little veranda between that outside toilet and the office. So Jan was crystal clear about where she was standing with me and where the body was. So that's how I've always known where the body is. Jan and Ken Hutson are there. Jan said other Hutton family members arrived and in their discussions they asked her to leave the property and take me away. So then Ken and Jen have left the property, they've taken me with them and they've gone back up to their property, which again is 15, 17 minutes away. While they're back at their property, they then phoned up Ian and Ellen Gitcham, who are at Kildare now. They phoned up what they call, like an internal party line. Yeah, so it's their own, like, little, little line. So nobody could hear their conversation or anything. It was an internal party line.

[A]

Forgive me, but it's like cans with a piece of string between it, effectively.

[B]

Yeah, that's all it is. Like the. Oh, what do you call it? The old cup against the ears. Yeah, conversation. Yeah, just straight across like that. So Ellen answered the phone and Ken had thought, you know, he said, oh, something's happened to Julie, she shot herself. And Alan was a bit. What she couldn't have. He's. We just drove past, like she just felt like they'd just driven past not that long ago. And she was waving to him. Yeah. You know, so she hung up and then she went out to get Ian. But then Ian come into the house and he said, ellen, phone Ken back. And I phoned Ken back and it was agreed for Ian to go down. So then Ian heads down to Dharang and then he has walked down the eastern side of the house. Now, the eastern side of the house is where Mum's body was. That's where Jan Hudson said it was.

[A]

The area between the office, the outside toilet and the tennis courts.

[B]

So Ian's walked in and it also lines up with Paul's statement because Paul statement has said that he was mowing on the western side of the house and he's come around the back of the house and he. And he walked down the eastern side and that's where Julie's body was. So I now have confirmation from three different people or where her body was rather than, you know, Paul told me as a teenager that she was sunbacing over near the tennis court and it's. She wasn't there at all. Like she was in this other spot near the office, you know, so that's where she was. So Ian's walked over that scene where she should have been, Ian's walked there past the birdcage, around to the front of the house and that is where he saw Paul and Mr. X. Now you can show Ian an exact image of that veranda and Ian can point exactly where Paul was sitting and he can show you exactly where Mr. X was as well.

[A]

So Ken and Jan have seen your mum's body?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you're saying that by the time they left and by the time Ian arrived pretty soon after that, they'd moved her.

[B]

Well, where was her body?

[A]

Right. He never saw it.

[B]

He never saw it, he never saw a gun and I was in there because he never heard a baby crying or anything. So Ian, for years always thought that Mum's body had already gone.

[A]

Gone to the hospital, gone to wherever, the mortuary.

[B]

Yeah. And he just thought it was strange, like Paul wasn't upset.

[A]

But this is. He says it's about quarter past one and just to reiterate, the police weren't called until 4:35.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. So Ian goes over there. Obviously it's a shocking situation.

[B]

And don't forget Ian's already been pre warned that Julie has shot herself. So it's not like you're just la dee da skipping into the house yard sort of thing. He's already cautious about walking in.

[A]

He said he expected there to be people everywhere and there was no one there except your father and Mr. X.

[B]

Yeah, and he really clearly remembers there was no car. So how did Mr. X get there?

[A]

Now obviously this is very complicated but you go into, you've interviewed all these people on the podcast, so please do listen to the podcast for more clarification and to hear these people tell their stories and all of those things. But I mean when I'm just so shocked by this time period, everyone, you've got half a dozen people saying they were either at the property or they got the phone call around lunchtime in adverted commas they'll say, I don't know, between 12 and 2. Let's say we were told that there'd been an accident at Doreen or we were told straight out that Julie had killed herself at Dureen. Why? Has anyone ever addressed why the police weren't called until 4:35? Has anyone ever said no?

[B]

Nobody at all. And when the two police did arrive at the scene at 5:30 because it took him an hour to get there after they got the phone call. And Paul's talking about, oh, you know, she was, she's been depressed ever since she had the baby. Well where was the baby? Do you know? What, what was the police officer? You know you've got two men, a lady that you know somehow miraculously aimed there with a long rifle. You know this is a very unusual case for a woman to get a life long rifle gun to her cabela, which is that area just above your eyebrows. But also at the same was Paul's brother Roger. So he's on the 1978 police report and Roger refuses to do a statement. And the current investigation, like the coroner could have issued instructions or an order for Roger to do a statement. He has the powers to do that. And they haven't done that either, surely the police.

[A]

I guess he didn't have the experience to see that there's a difference between a deceased person who's been deceased for half an hour, say it happened at 4:30 they call them at 4:35, they were there around 5. The body would present differently if it had been deceased for half an hour to if it had been deceased for four hours. But no one seems to have noticed.

[B]

Well, the police officer that did arrive there and he's on the podcast, like, he's okay. Yeah, he speaks on the podcast. And the strange thing for him was no blood. He just thought it was really weird. Like, he just said it was just too clean. Like, where was the blood? Like, he. He just thought, jesus is giant. This is very clean. He was one that wanted detectives to come over because he said they didn't have cameras and stuff back in those days. You call the detective in and they're the ones that take photographs and stuff like that. But he remembers Mum was still breathing at 5:00'.

[A]

Clock.

[B]

5:30. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And you've got just again, to reiterate, you've got a number of witnesses saying, we knew about it at lunchtime. At lunchtime, yeah. 12 to 11.

[B]

And even another lady, she talks on the podcast as well. She clearly remembers. She was just about to get in the car, she had a plate full of food. They were heading over to Ken and Jan Hudson's place for a fire meeting, like a rural fire brigade type meeting on Sunday. They got a phone call from Ken Hudson again. So they got a phone call from Ken and Ken said, look, no fire meeting, darling. There's an accident at Ding. And she actually told me that. She said, look, I didn't know that there was a gun involved, didn't know anything, but there was an accident at Darring and the fire meeting was cancelled, so they didn't go to that fire meeting.

[A]

So again, the wording is.

[B]

And that was before lunch.

[A]

The wording is significant because it feels as though someone at Dahraen has described it as an accident. What's happened? And then a bit later on when people start arriving, it's being described as a suicide, correct?

[B]

Yeah. And current, the police officer is still alive. The one that said that the scene was just too clean, he said, sergeant above him, just write it off as a suicide on the spot. Right then and there. Just voted off then. Yeah. And he wanted other people to come over and check it out and all that sort of stuff. But the sergeant was adamant, was swearing at him, basically, like, you can hear him on the podcast swearing, like what? The sergeant told him, you know, just shut up and mind your own business, basically.

[A]

All right, so there was an inquest.

[B]

No, there was never an inquest in 1978. Still no inquest today. All it's been is an investigation. It's very minimalistic investigation. It's basically the police just asked people to do a statement. The recent investigations was completed by the local Oswald police officer, which I jumped up and down about to the coroners. I said, why are you getting just a local Ozil police officer to investigate this? Soon you have somebody a bit higher up and the district thinks the same, unfortunately. Well, I don't know why he's done it, but that police officer in his report is dismissing all those witnesses statements. He is saying that it was too long ago. Their times are going to be a little bit, you know, out. And people don't have to do a statement. It's only if they want to.

[A]

But you made the point that an inquest. Part of the point of an inquest is the coroner can compel people to make a statement or to be interviewed about something, to give evidence. And so that's part of the reason you want one.

[B]

Exactly. Yep. Because there's people that were at the

[A]

scene and they've refused to give.

[B]

They refused to do statements. Yep, yep.

[A]

And, you know, we can understand people saying, oh, it's a long time ago. Memories aren't that great. But, I mean, you have a number of people whose stories line up. That's what struck me from the podcast is it's not like you've got one elderly person who thinks it happened this way. You have a number of people.

[B]

No, have quite a number. And that's what I always sort of happy about, because then you can sort of poke holes in, you know, Paul's statement and Mr. X's statement, for example. All right, if you, if you had them in at the inquest or in the room, you could ask them questions about, okay, well, what time did Ken and Jan Hudson come in? Where did the baby go? Like, while you were waiting 50 minutes for the ambulance and police to arrive, what was the little baby doing? Like, you know, in the 1978 statement, I see Rogers turned up to help you. When did he arrive? Like this. So much stuff that you could ask. Yeah, and.

[A]

And no one's asking yet.

[B]

And that's. That's how, you know, these cases get resolved. Because of the. What do you call it? Inconsistencies.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

In the, in the statement, like.

[A]

Yeah, but, you know, Graham Crowley, who we love, he does the podcast with you and he makes the point and he has a lot of experience in this area that this. There's sometimes not a willingness on the part of the coroner's court to pursue old cases like this because they feel like, what's the point? Essentially, you know, it's like there's this expense. I've got a caseload up to the ceiling on my desk of cases that I'm looking into whether or not to have an inquest. He cites a case, a recent case, where the coroner said, look, most of the witnesses are dead. This is a 45 year old case. There's no point in pursuing it, spending the resources on it. That's what you're up against really, isn't it?

[B]

Well, I think it's. I think in 1978 we can clearly see that it was not investigated properly because they never took photographs, they never took ballistic testing, they hardly did anything. There wasn't even an autopsy. So you're looking at a body that's got no GSR anywhere. There's no. Oh, like gunshot and powder residue. Residue, yeah, yeah, there's. There's none of that. There's no sort. Carbon. It's same, same wording. It's all this powder.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. None on the hands.

[B]

There's none on the hands, none on a forehead anywhere. And there's no blood. And the other thing Ian talks about is if she was laying out on the ground, if mom was laying on the ground within 20 minutes, there would have been meat ants all over.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

[A]

And even I'm just thinking, even if the police were told, yeah, we cleaned up the blood, that would seem reasonable to me. If such a horrific thing happened at my house and I'm sitting there for an hour with my loved one's body, I might forget, I might go out and try and clean it up. But you kind of need to say that needs to be part of the.

[B]

Well, when you picked your wife's body up and got her in the car and taken her to the hospital.

[A]

Yeah, all of the above. Especially if she was still breathing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, you got your best mate there. Wouldn't be that hard to get in the car and get to the hospital. Like, how hard would that have been, like. And rural people do that. More so than fighting around for ambulance and stuff like that. Because we know that we're 40 minutes from town. You don't really wait that long.

[A]

I mean, rural doctors do appendectomies in their offices, you know, and all sorts of things like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People just go, so where are you at now? You've done an excellent investigation. I noticed the coroner said, I don't know if you'd say criticized you, but said, oh, look, she hasn't provided enough evidence. And you made the point. Wasn't that your job, like? But you have done a lot of work on this. So. So where are you at now?

[B]

Yeah. So I've actually asked the state coroner to provide me with other gunshot wounds, just female only of the Gabella area and a long rifle.22. So I would like to have a look at other files of that because the fact that Mum had no carbon or soot indicates it. Well it can indicate that it was at a distant shot more so than a close up.

[A]

Because I just want to remind everyone, including you, that you are a cattle farmer, you are not a homicide detective, but you are doing a lot of work. Work. Yeah.

[B]

Cuz I actually got someone else to pull a 22 out and shoot into a white container.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And because I didn't really understand it initially because I'm not really a gum, not a ballistics expert, I'm not really a gum person either. And person's like oh, you know, powder and stuff. I'm like, nope, got no idea. So when you actually do it and I've got it on one of my Facebook posts or you know, up close, 30 centimeters and 60 centimeters. So once you start going over 60 centimeters, there's no powder. Yeah. So that's how they can roughly tell the distance. The other thing with mum's file I did notice was so the entry point was through the Guerbella but the bullet ended up say I can't remember if it's left or right side of her head, but say it ended up on one side of her head but she had a fracture on the opposite side. So just think is a fracture, the doctor hasn't written that the doctor that the fracture runs from the Gibella up or anything like that. So is that a different injury? There's all these questions and the fact is, because they didn't do an internal autopsy, which is what they should have done, they should have extracted mum's brain out to follow the, you know, the bullet markings to see where it went and if it didn't hit the skull on that side of a head then that should have been looked at as well, you know, potentially a second injury as another injury.

[A]

And you have presented a lot of your findings on the website, on your Facebook page.

[B]

I do have a group called, it's a private group called the Guarantor in Facebook. So if anyone's got any questions, I've sort of been probably a lot more detailed in there. Like I just recently published photograph or you know, the conversation I had with Ian and he described to me where the two men were on the steps. So yeah, there's, there's a whole heap of information in there. And I've really tried really hard to try and find another Cabela case, long rifle gun, and I'm struggling. I can't find anything. I've asked a lot of police, ambulance officers, anyone that's been in their job for a long time and no one can recall one. And it would be something that you would vividly remember if you did come across one, because it's such an unusual location.

[A]

So nobody can remember a suicide, a self inflicted injury in that area. The work you've done is unbelievable. I thought it was much longer, to be honest. The work you've done in four years is pretty amazing.

[B]

Well, I'm trying to push it really hard because all the witnesses, majority of the witnesses that we need are alive. And I think that's half the reason perhaps for this file might, you know, just go to the bottom again, is because, oh, well, by the time the witnesses pass away enough to have this case. But what I'm trying to also do is if they leave mum's cases of suicide in, you know, state archives, as such, how many more women potentially could end up with a gunshot there and be written off for suicide? So the fact is that they're saying, oh, an inquest is unnecessary. I think it's very necessary because you need to protect further potential suicide homicide cases because they could use this one as a, oh, well, Julie Hutton did it there, you know.

[A]

Yeah, I never thought of that as a precedent to say, yeah, yeah, we have seen it happen once. It was Julie.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And because there are a lot of women in regional areas that have had a gun up against their head. A lot, a lot of women.

[A]

Since recording this episode, Natalie's most recent request for an inquest has been denied. Natalie's inquiries remain regarding the timeline on the day of her mother's death, including how a number of events, such as phone calls to the Hudsons cancelling the fire meeting, traveling to collect the baby, family members arriving at the property, returning to contact the Gitchams and Ian attending the scene could have occurred within a 50 minute period, particularly given reports that no police, ambulance or family members were present at that time. To learn more about the case, we strongly encourage you to listen to Graeme Crowley's podcast, the Guarantor. There's a link to help you do that and to join Natalie's Facebook page that posts updates on her mother's case in the show Notes of the this episode.

[B]

The producers of this podcast recognise the

[A]

traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded.

[B]

They pay respect to the aboriginal elders

[A]

past, present, and those emerging.