Neil Mitchell’s Life in Crime

Summary

Australian True Crime: "Neil Mitchell’s Life in Crime"

Australian True Crime, Bravecasting | Aired December 14, 2025

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Main Theme & Episode Overview

This episode features legendary Australian broadcaster and journalist Neil Mitchell in conversation with host Meshel Laurie. The focus is on Mitchell’s decades-long career covering crime in Australia—from infamous kidnappings to serial killer cases—and the broader social and media responsibilities in reporting and responding to crime. The discussion traverses the media’s impact, police relations, systemic challenges in youth crime, and the human stories that haunt or inspire change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Neil Mitchell’s Introduction to Crime Reporting

• Early Exposure: Mitchell recalls being thrust into coverage of the Faraday kidnapping (1972) and the real-life drama that made crime reporting compelling.
  • "I was standing in the kitchen of a lovely local family whose kids were missing. And I think I worked for the next 36 hours." —Neil Mitchell [05:28]

Building Trust: Media’s Role with Victims' Families

• Victims as Community: Laurie highlights that many victims' families turned to Mitchell not only for coverage but for empathy.
• Media Cynicism: Mitchell acknowledges the reputation but insists sincerity matters, especially to traumatized families:
  • "Often the victims need representation... At times you need to be a bit of a social worker." —Neil Mitchell [07:16]
• Example—Russell Family: Known for support post-Frankston murders (Paul Denyer case), Mitchell maintains friendships and remembers speaking at funerals.

Community Mobilization After Crime

• Blue Ribbon Foundation: After the tragic 1988 Walsh Street police shootings, Mitchell led fund-raising and establishment of charities to honor slain officers—demonstrating media’s capacity to empower communities.
  • "If you can mobilize the audience at a time like that and mobilize them financially in whatever way you can, it gives them a sense of power and it achieves something." —Neil Mitchell [09:27]

The Frankston Serial Killings (Paul Denyer)

• Atmosphere of Fear: Reflecting on the serial killer's reign, Mitchell discusses balancing coverage—informing without inciting terror.
  • "That was probably the most fear I can remember in the community because he was just… random serial killer. Random. Just women off the street." —Neil Mitchell [16:38]
• Dignity of the Russell Family: Emphasizes the responsibility in reporting such cases respectfully, aiding both investigation and public healing.

Talkback Radio and Social Division

• AM Radio’s Reputation: Laurie critiques the sometimes divisive image, citing the spread of fear or misinformation via talkback.
• Mitchell’s Approach: Distances himself from sensationalism, arguing for responsible, fact-based discussion—even on contentious topics like immigration or crime.
  • "I was trained on the age. I understand journalistic responsibilities and ethics perhaps more than some..." —Neil Mitchell [20:09]

Youth Crime: Crisis and Solutions

• Data vs. Hysteria: The pair explore rising aggravated burglaries, machete violence, and the disproportionate fear it generates.
• Racialized Narratives: Debunking misrepresented statistics during the "Sudanese gang" panic, Mitchell recalls having community parents on-air, who were often more concerned than outsiders.
• Media-Driven Anxiety: Both admit even they lock their houses now, showing personal impact of widespread fear narratives.

Learning from Overseas: Scottish & LA Models

• Prevention over Punishment: Laurie brings up Scotland’s holistic approach—treating youth crime as a social welfare issue, not just a judicial one.
  • "One thing that really impressed me...the mother of another gang member got up and talked to them...most of the kids were in tears. They respected the mum." —Neil Mitchell [28:20]
• Political Short-Sightedness: Mitchell laments politicians' reluctance to take long-term or innovative action due to electoral cycles.
  • "It's not really about the issue." —Host [31:11]
• Call for Independent Expertise: Advocates for non-political, experienced panels to advise government policy.

Knife Crime and Measures Like “Jack’s Law”

• Mitchell supports trialing UK/Qld style measures (e.g., proactive searches for knives at stations), questioning political resistance to such pragmatic reforms.
  • "Jack's Law...you can go and search kids with reasonable cause...look for knives." —Neil Mitchell [35:33]

Juvenile Sentencing and Recidivism

• Moral Dilemmas: Both discuss judges’ trauma in sentencing children, with references to Justices Lex Lasry and Frank Vincent.
  • "It keeps him awake at night still." —Host [39:57]
  • "Compassion’s appropriate, but it needs to be blended with an approach that protects the community and reduces the chance of recidivism." —Neil Mitchell [41:12]
• When Is it Too Late?: Recognition that some young offenders are lost to the system, but also frustration at lack of meaningful early intervention.

Mental Health, Systemic Failures, and Dangerous Individuals

• Case Examples:
  • Peter Dupas—serial rapist/killer whose multiple chances baffled both.
  • Gary David—traumatized as a child, became a notorious violent offender.
    • "From the days he was nailed to the wall as a little boy by his dad was doomed and it was a matter of how much damage he did on the way out..." —Neil Mitchell [43:25]
• Mental Health System Gaps: Overwhelmed ERs, lack of accessible treatment, and police forced into de facto mental health roles.

Trauma of Reporting True Crime

• Personal Impact: Laurie and Mitchell both recount cases that ‘stay with them’, including the Bega schoolgirl murders and the Port Arthur massacre.
  • "I found myself obsessing over it and really troubled and really had to have a little break..." —Host [57:04]
  • "To read [the Port Arthur court transcript] always stay with me..." —Neil Mitchell [57:36]

Systemic Scandals and Unanswered Questions

• Carl Williams’s Death in Jail: Both reflect on whether incompetence or conspiracy led to the infamous gangland figure being murdered behind bars—a case with no official inquest.
  • "I don't know...I do know there are people still around who believe it was a conspiracy at some level." —Neil Mitchell [53:59]
• Nicola Gobbo Scandal: Frustration that the Royal Commission’s exposure of “Lawyer X” has led to so few consequences or answers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Representing Victims’ Families:

  • "They need to give a sense of purpose to the life that’s been lost." —Neil Mitchell [07:16]

• On Community Mobilization:

  • "It gives them a sense of power." —Neil Mitchell [09:27]

• On Serial Crime Atmospheres:

  • "You can't have people needlessly terrified, but you do want them to be aware and alert. Alert and aware." —Neil Mitchell [16:38]

• On Youth Crime Solutions:

  • "The whole part of it is to try to put them on a better path, to distract them, to take them away from this, what they're doing." —Neil Mitchell [29:15]

• On Social Media and Desensitization:

  • "I hate bloody social media. I think it's the worst thing that's come across our civilization in a very long time." —Host [37:53]

• On Judges Sentencing Children:

  • "To send them to jail for the rest of their lives, it keeps him awake at night still." —Host (re: Frank Vincent) [39:57]

• On Mental Health System Gaps:

  • "These are the doctors and nurses. A big part of that's the mental health problem. And the coppers have got nowhere else to take him." —Neil Mitchell [46:40]

• On Systemic Injustices:

  • "It goes to the heart of the very system we rely on to keep us civilized." —Neil Mitchell [56:04]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| MM:SS | Segment | |:-----:|:-------------| | 05:03 | Mitchell's introduction to crime reporting; Faraday kidnapping story | | 07:16 | Media’s role with victims' families, the Russell family | | 09:27 | Community response after police shootings; Blue Ribbon Day | | 16:01 | Frankston serial killings (Paul Denyer), emotion & responsibility in crime coverage | | 20:09 | Talkback radio: division or service? Mitchell’s ethos | | 22:01 | The "Sudanese gang" panic and media responsibility | | 27:52 | Scottish model for youth crime; alternative approaches (Lex Lasry’s anecdote) | | 31:05 | Political short-sightedness vs. real reform in youth justice | | 35:33 | "Jack's Law" and response to knife violence | | 39:35 | Sentencing youth offenders, judge’s trauma (Frank Vincent) | | 43:25 | Gary David and systemic failure stories | | 46:40 | State of mental health and links to public safety | | 53:46 | Carl Williams’s murder in jail; conspiracy or incompetence | | 56:04 | Systemic failures: Nicola Gobbo scandal | | 57:36 | Crime reporting trauma—Bega schoolgirls, Port Arthur massacre | | 59:23 | Port Arthur and the national response/gun reform |

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Tone and Atmosphere

• Candid and reflective, with moments of deep empathy, especially towards victims and their families.
• Critical yet constructive, especially regarding governmental, judicial, and media shortcomings.
• Balance between horror at the worst of humanity and hope in community resilience and systemic improvement.
• Sprinkled with personal anecdotes, giving listeners an inside view of both Mitchell’s and Laurie’s emotional journeys.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, behind-the-scenes look at crime, media responsibility, and reform in Australia—anchored by Neil Mitchell’s career and conscience. It is both a chronicle of the country’s darkest moments and a call for humane, intelligent responses at every level—from newsrooms to courts to Parliament. The conversation is at once sobering and inspiring, ideal for listeners wanting context, compassion, and expertise on Australia’s true crime realities.

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(This summary excludes advertisements and promotional material, focusing entirely on substantive content.)

Transcript

[Host]

Before we begin today's episode of Australian True Crime, I want to tell you about a new project we've been working on behind the scenes. It's called she Matters. It's a new podcast from award winning journalist and femicide researcher Sherrelle Moody. Each week Sherrelle speaks with families of women and children killed in Australia, sharing who they were, the joy they brought, and the love they left behind. She Matters isn't a true crime podcast, but it's about lives lived, lives loved, and lives lost. She Matters is produced by Dash made Podcasts in association with bravecasting Media. She Matters is available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Neil Mitchell]

You've got to walk this fine line in talk radio. Such a direct form of communication that you want to help people, you want to comfort people, but not so much that they don't see the danger, but you don't want to terrify them. And that's not a commercial. For reasons not cause, people will turn off. That's a simple community responsibility.

[Host]

Neil Mitchell is a legendary Australian broadcaster and journalist. In 1985, he became one of the youngest ever editors of an Australian newspaper, which was the Herald. He then went on to write for the age before beginning his extraordinary 37 year run on three awards. Best known for his Talkback Show, Neil Mitchell established himself as a dedicated supporter of victims of crime. His podcast, Neil Mitchell Asks why is available wherever you get your podcasts and he joins us on Australian True Crime to talk about the cases that stick with him. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

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[Neil Mitchell]

I started on the age as a kid going to uni part time and at the age. And the age in those days was a very good paper was about politics. But I did the usual stinton Brussels street police headquarters in a little hellhole of an office they had up there. They called them media room. But I do remember one very early exposure to major crime that intrigued me. And maybe, maybe you're right, maybe that kept me interested. That was The Faraday kidnapping 1978 when John Eastwood and Clyde Boland kidnapped six kids from one teacher school in a place called Faraday. I was just knocking off work as industrial reporter about 11 o' clock at night and the Herald the Herald or their son as it was, had the scoop. And there was panic in the Age office when I walked in, full of good humour and red wine, and they sent me straight up to Faraday. And a few hours later, I was standing in the kitchen of a lovely local family whose kids were missing. And I think I worked for the next 36 hours. The kids were found safe only after their teacher managed to get them out. But the drama of it. I remember Lindsay Thompson was the man who was the education minister and the ransom was that we want a million dollars in cash in 1972 and you are to stand with it in a suitcase outside the Wood End railway station at dawn. Word got through to us and we took the aged car down and parked it opposite the Wood End railway station. I was hiding under the dashboard so the crooks couldn't see me and a police officer kind of knocked on the window. What the hell are you? Who are you? What are you doing here? And I said, oh, we're from the Age, we're waiting for the handover. Oh. He said, okay. And off he went. I mean, now you'd be locked up. But that intrigued me. Real people, real issues, real passion, real drama. That intrigued me. I didn't focus on crime, I went on to a lot of other things. But I'd certainly did a lot of it on radio.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're famous for it, but maybe that's just from my perspective as well. I mean, you're famous for lots of things, but over the seven or eight years I've been doing this podcast, I've lost count of the number of victims and victims families I've spoken to, who've mentioned you, who've talked about this happened and then that happened. And then of course, we went on Neil Mitchell and it changed everything. Even if it was just how they felt they were being cared for, to be honest, it's a strange word to use. But they felt cared for by you.

[Neil Mitchell]

No, that's exactly it. Often the victims need representation. They need to give a sense of purpose to the life that's been lost. It gives the life of that person, the victim, more significance and importance when there is a public involvement in it, in radio in particular, as you well know, you need to be very directly connected with your audience. You need to care about your audience. And at times you need to be a bit of a social worker. I mean, I won't be too altruistic, all of which makes good radio, but I used to get, I still do a bit deeply Involved for those reasons. I still know a lot of these people and talk to them regularly. And there's no cynical media motive in that now, Feline.

[Host]

No, obviously not. And I think it was obvious all along. Certainly we all in the media can be accused of cynicism when it comes to dealing with crime and dealing with families and. But I think there always was a sense of sincerity with you and the families felt it. I remember meeting the Russells, beautiful family who lost their daughter to serial killer Paul Denyer in Frankston. We'll talk more about that in a sec. But when they were in trouble many years later, or when they were in need, when they were elderly and in need of basic sort of repairs around the house and things like that, they came to you and they trusted you and you helped them.

[Neil Mitchell]

I don't think I ever come across a more decent family than the Russell family. I spoke at Carmel's funeral not all that long ago, and I said that and I genuinely meant it. I mean, Brian's a lovely, gentle man, beautiful man, Carmel. Determined, feisty, funny even right to the end, a really great family. And it was an honour to deal with people like that. And journals get too cynical. Most of the world is decent out there. I don't think I've come across too many victims of major crime over the years. Oh, you say, what a pain in the ass. I don't know what you'd do with them. They've been good people.

[Host]

Yeah. I agree with you about the cynicism, but I know, I experience it. I know I am really often reminded I have to stop myself and say, hang on. Most people are really good people. Bad things happen, people do bad things, all those things. But that's real. I think sometimes I get a bit guarded because of the work that I do and the research that I do and things like that. But I can't avoid the fact that people are mostly good.

[Neil Mitchell]

That's another reason I think I sort of found myself involved in campaigning around crime issues like the Wall street shootings. The two police killed in 1988. The two young constables were raced to hospital, but they were dead on arrival. Both had been shot in the head with a shotgun. And Damien Ayre was also shot twice with another weapon, probably his own service revolver, which is still missing. I was doing drive at the time, but within 24 hours we had $250,000 arranged to go to a foundation in their name that later morphed into the Blue Ribbon Foundation. After the death of Gary Silk and Rod Miller, two other Police killed. And we did a similar thing around the Bali bombings. Both times the public felt empowered. They see something awful like two young coppers getting shot dead in the streets and they, they can't do anything about it. They're frustrated. They say, oh, God, look, that's awful. And if you can mobilise the audience at a time like that and mobilise them financially in whatever way you can, it gives them a sense of power and it achieves something.

[Host]

You're right. I like to have that opportunity myself. We all do. When we see something we. We feel powerless about, something we don't like that's happening in the world, to be given the opportunity to do something. And you have done that many, many times over the years. You were fundamental in the creation of Blue Ribbon Day and the Blue Ribbon Foundation. Do you think we Australians have a broadly positive relationship with police? I do. And I do because I talk to people from other countries, certainly from, you know, war torn countries, who are constantly shocked at our positive attitude toward police. They're like, where I come from, we're terrified of police. You guys hold your kids on your shoulders to wave at them as they drive past.

[Neil Mitchell]

I think we've got a pretty good relationship. Was threatened during COVID in Victoria because of some particularly unpleasant incidents like rubber bullets being fired at protesters and old ladies being arrested. But I think we will come back from that. Like you, I'm fortunate in that I grew up, and I grew up in an era with police when we're actually mates, you know, we'd go down to the old police club and drink too much every night. You felt you were working on the same team. There's a bit more tension now and it's more media managed. There was a great Victorian policeman called Paul Delanis who was. He ended up as deputy commissioner in charge of crime, but he was head of the homicide squad, head of the armed robbers. He was a real heavy copper and a very good one, a very, very good one. And I remember him saying to me very early, media and police need to work together because we're both on the same side and we're going to fight crime. And he introduced this technique of drip feeding stuff to the media if he had a murder. And after a week he's getting nowhere. Suddenly the place a story in the media about something that got attention and if that didn't work, then a week later he'd do something else. He just held back all these things which could be public and managed the media into a situation. And we all knew It. But he managed us into a situation of helping get attention and help catch the crook. I've had lots of troubles with the media. I mean, both Christine Nixon and Simon Overland banned me for a while at two chief commissioners in Victoria, another one threatened to punch me in the nose. We're good mates, dad, but it was funny at the time and I've had troubles with. I used to perhaps fight with the chief commissioners too much, but my view was they were running a huge and important organisation, they had to be fairly accountable.

[Host]

Actually, now that I think about it, is it possible that we have you to blame for the fact that police media is so shy? I'm always complaining about the fact that they just won't talk to us about anything they won't give us serving police. And then I try and temper that by saying, look, I get it, police are under a lot of scrutiny. Usually when police are spoken about in the media, it's negative. I don't have data to back that up. But it feels that way, that it's usually criticizing them for something. And now that you talk about, I think, is it Neil Mitchell we have to blame because you were always pretty tough on them.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, I think it goes back further than that. I was. When I was chief of staff of the age, a couple of million years ago, we set up a panel called the Police Media Liaison Committee. I was on it, representatives of other newspapers and TV stations were on it and a couple of police were on it. And we would thrash through these problems and I remember raising them then and this would have been what, late 70s? And they showed me some guidelines that the police had to follow in doing interviews and they were terrified. And I remember saying that a young junior constable, I've turned up at a triple fatality. The media comes along and puts a microphone under my nose and I've got to follow these guidelines. I'm not going to open the mouth. And I think there's still a bit of that going on. Incidentally, a funny story from that committee. I remember Mick Miller was the chief Commissioner who's got to be one of the most respected chiefs we ever had. And he had decided on a policy or somewhere. They decided on a policy. They wouldn't release the amount of money stolen in an armed holdup. And bank holdups were very big in those days. So somebody's got away with 20 grand in a bank hold up and they'd say, oh, it's an undisclosed amount. And we in the media committee thought that was outrageous, of course. And we fought an office I got the short story and I was delegated to go to see Mick Miller. So it's just me and Mick in his office and I'm arguing the case and why I think it's outrageous. And I said, look, I've been told by my editors at the Age that if this isn't sorted out, I am to approach the police minister, who is Tom Roper. Approach the police minister and have him instruct you to change his policy. Mick Miller looked at me and he said, yep, feel free. You can do that. By all means, you do that, I'll quit.

[Host]

Wow.

[Neil Mitchell]

It's the sort of man he had. It's a matter of integrity. If the government tells me what to do, I'm outta here. And I go, oh, we better sort this out. We never did sort it out properly, but there has always been that tension.

[Host]

Tell us about when there's a major crime going on in Melbourne. I suppose there's no greater example than a serial killer on the go in Frankston, where we've got a number of young women attacked and murdered in a short period of time. By his own admission, Paul Charles Denier.

[Jerry (Insurance Advertiser)]

Is a sadistic killer.

[Host]

At 21 years of age, he brutally.

[Neil Mitchell]

Slaughtered three young women and abducted a.

[Jerry (Insurance Advertiser)]

Fourth woman in the Frankston region southeast of Melbourne.

[Neil Mitchell]

Can you tell me why you attacked her on that night? On this night? Just wanted to kill.

[Host]

It was a killing that horrified the.

[Jerry (Insurance Advertiser)]

Country and caused an outcry for justice.

[Host]

What's it like to be in a position like the position you have been in for many years, where people do tune in and look to you for information about that?

[Neil Mitchell]

Well, and I noticed this through Covid, too, through the bad days of COVID and the lockdown. It's a privilege. And you mentioned the Frankston killing. Paul Charles Denyer, Teddy Frame, Elizabeth Stevens, Natalie Russell. I know far more about that than I want to, partly because of being close to the Russell family. But I also read detailed coroner's reports from all of them. So that man, thank God he's never getting out. But it's a great privilege and a great responsibility. That sounds twee, but it is true. The privilege is that people trust you. The responsibility is that they need you. And I remember during the year more than most, there was a real atmosphere of fear. Large part of that, the whole Southeast, not just Frankston, because it went into Lang Warren and areas like that. And people in the city were, you know, we were getting called, can I carry pepper spray or a can of pepper in my bag. We're taking self Defense advice. The positive side, that everybody was out looking for clues, and in the end, that's really what caught Daniel. You've got to walk this fine line in talk radio. Such a direct form of communication that you want to help people, you want to comfort people, but not so much that they don't see the danger, but you don't want to terrify them. And that's not a commercial for reasons, not because people will turn off. That's a simple community responsibility. You can't have people needlessly terrified, but you do want them to be aware and alert. Alert and aware. When I look back on it, it was probably the most fear I can remember in the community because he was just. It was just random serial killer. Random. Just women off the street.

[Host]

Oh, you know, the idea of a young woman nipping down to the shop to get milk while her baby's at home walking into the shop coming out and a man is hidden in the backseat of her car while she's in there, abducts and murders her, is the stuff of horror movies. And for that to happen in our community, which, you know, I still think of Melbourne as the sort of not a country town, but a cozy town. It seems unfathomable in our community that that could happen. And to happen then again and have a teenager murdered on her walk home from school.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah.

[Host]

Unbelievable.

[Neil Mitchell]

It is unbelievable to think that he was going to get out. And that's part of the reason I was talking about the Russell family being such good people. The dignity and the strength that they showed in that. Remember coming into the studio and talked to me not long afterwards. And this, at this stage, pretty sure Denier hadn't been caught. And that's probably the reason they were talking, to get attention for it. And they just had, you know, how would you do that? Your daughter's been murdered in the most horrific circumstances and you do that. And that was the beginning of our friendship. There is an extraordinary responsibility on media to report it carefully and constructively from a public point of view. You can't remove the horror and the drama, but you've got to. Yeah, that's one of the things that worries me. Going on about the machete and aggravate burglaries at the moment around Victoria. And they're terrifying. So the figures are terrifying. They're really bad. But there's an element of fear that maybe is as bad as it was in the Denier days. Although we've been through bad bursts of aggravated burglaries before over the years. Not this Bad.

[Host]

Well, tell us about that, about the way that things are reported and then the ripple effect of that in the community. Because talkback radio, AM. Talkback Radio, from my perspective, has a bad reputation. I'm sure you'll disagree. But, you know, we on my side of the fence used to say, oh, Christ, they'd stir people up. They get everyone, you know, get all the old girls going on about burqas at the bank and all the sort of classic seem to me, the classic tropes and that it's not constructive and it's not helpful and that it actually stirs up division in the community. Because also, though, you know, my mum, I have to admit, and I know a lot of people have this experience, you go to your mum's house, who's elderly, and the bullshit she comes out with Neil, and you just go, where did you hear Neil told? Yeah, well, obviously it's not you, but it's. There are others in the mix and more certainly, you know, there are some really extreme guys that she listens to. I think they're extreme, but it causes division at Christmas. We've got Christmas coming up. There'll be families around the Christmas table arguing about what their S side of the fence. And the commentators on their side of the fence, the information that they're offering up. What do you think about that?

[Neil Mitchell]

Look, it clearly it concerns me. I. I would hope if people wanted to get up my nose when I was radio, they just call me a shock jock. And I wasn't a shock jock. And I never wanted my training as journalistic. I was editor of a newspaper. I was trained on the age. I understand journalistic responsibilities and ethics perhaps more than some, particularly in other states, care about. But of course it worries me. I mean, the sky after dark stuff sometimes makes my hair curl. And I know some of the people involved. You don't really believe this. You don't really think this. That doesn't mean you avoid difficult issues. I did a podcast not long ago on immigration because I saw it survive emerging as an issue and I did it on radio, on a radio spot I still do on aw, and there was, oh, we're going to stir up the racists. And I said, well, maybe we are and we'll deal with that, we'll deal with that. But that's better than ignoring it and them thinking it's a conspiracy. I think you've got to handle these things responsibly. And that means crime, immigration, whatever division is up in the Middle east war, whatever division there is in the community, you should handle it sensibly. I think it's been a bit of a tradition in Melbourne radio that it's been pretty sensible, certainly compared to Sydney, and I hope it continues.

[Host]

Yeah. The machete crime, the youth crime and the reporting of that. There is often a racial element to that, to the reporting. I remember a couple of years ago, there was a very bad period where Sudanese gangs were the big topic. One network absolutely was using old footage of a riot and pumping it out on social media and saying it had happened in Melbourne the night before and all sorts of weird tactics like that. Where do you think we really sit when it comes to youth crime at the moment? Is it a crisis? Is there a racial element? Are we too soft? You know, people will say, oh, kids get caught and they don't get any punishment. All these kinds of things that they do pick up from some commentators.

[Neil Mitchell]

I was in the middle of that time when issues with Sudanese gangs too, and I remember being attacked for it. But when you looked at the figures, there was a massive misrepresentation of these kids. And when you say Sudanese, they may well have been Australian born, but when.

[Host]

You say representation too, don't you mean as a representation of their community, like, not of our community?

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, well, no, I haven't got the figures in front of me. I'm going back to them at the time and for the size in the. In the community, they were unduly represented. Nearest figures. Now, some would say that was racial profiling. I doubt that. But I remember at the time, I got into the studio, parents of offenders and community leaders, and the parents were more horrified than the broader community because they lost control of their kids.

[Host]

Oh, I know a number of Sudanese families who sent their kids back to Africa, to Congo or somewhere like that, to go to school, because they felt like it just wasn't working here.

[Neil Mitchell]

Extraordinary social pressures. I mean, you've got. Even the kids are Australian born. The parents are coming from a different culture. They've seen the most horrendous things, most of them. And these kids are saying, what are you. Can't. You don't relate to me. I'm an Aussie. As to the current situation, youth crime's up significantly. Can't avoid that. Aggravated burglaries are up significantly. The nature of the violence has got worse with the machetes and things like that, and the brawling in the shopping centre. The figures are the worst around Australia. Even the United States has had some success in reducing youth crime, Los Angeles in particular, and gang crime. But I do the figures. In the last year, 14% of the population in Victoria has been a victim of crime. The opposition. I hadn't checked these. I reckon there's a crime every 49.4 seconds now. I don't know the comparison. Was there a crime every minute a year ago? I don't know that but I do know the percentages, so they're increasing significantly. And if you've got 14% of the population as a victim of crime, it's. It's a problem.

[Host]

Yeah. It seems to me at the moment we've got it almost a form of. Or it feels like a. The similar result to terrorism in that there is also then an explosion of terror in the community and that it's like people are afraid. Even though we have this percentage of actual crime, which is high, far more people are frightened, people who haven't been impacted by crime yet.

[Neil Mitchell]

Touch wood.

[Host]

I've got teenage kids who won't leave the house because they think there's going to be machete gangs at the shops. You know, that's a problem that's going on in our culture at the moment.

[Neil Mitchell]

Of course, you know, I was talking to a man who was a very, very senior politician in Victoria the other day. He's going to buy a baseball b put aside the bed, right. And I said, yeah, you know, statistically it's highly unlikely you'll be a victim.

[Host]

And this is a very serious guy who knows his business.

[Neil Mitchell]

He's been around politics and public life a long time and he knows that things will be talked up for the sake of politics. I, perhaps even myself, I think I locked the house at night now, maybe I didn't a couple of years ago. I mean, you're asking for trouble if you don't.

[Host]

You are, but I'm the same. I used to leave the back door open for the dog, you know, things like that. And I don't anymore. If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you, you can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800-Respect Org au. Or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 1114.

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[Neil Mitchell]

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[Neil Mitchell]

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Oh, you're definitely a groupie.

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[Host]

I spoke to another friend of yours not long ago, Justice Lex Lasry. He's a fantastic man and he introduced me to Scottish perspective on youth crime. I was unaware, but since then I've done lots of research. I've been reading and watching everything I can. It's a fascinating approach they've taken to youth crime. Do you know much about it?

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, the Age got very excited about it a few weeks ago and I. I too hadn't heard of it and I looked in. This is where they're bringing the gang members together. Into meetings and things like that.

[Host]

And it's also just a completely different attitude. The attitude of not looking at as a crime issue but as a social welfare issue and really trying to nip it in the bud, as it were. Look at reasons behind youth crime. So it's very different to our approach at the moment. Our approach at the moment is build more jails, be tough on youth crime. We're not tough enough. They've gone the completely other way, haven't they?

[Neil Mitchell]

They have. And one of the things that really impressed me there was, there was a report of a meeting where they've got these gang members in and the mother of a gang member I think had been killed or jailed, I think killed the mother of another gang member got up and talked to them and said, kids, look at me, I'm going through hell, my son's dead. You're on a path to this sort of thing. And the report was that most of the kids were in tears. These big tough gang members didn't respect the public and the people they were beating up, but they respected the mum. I thought that was a magnificent idea. Lex, I don't know if he talked about this but Lex Lasry, when he was in the Supreme Court of Victoria, he's sentencing young children for murder and murder was his area. Imagine that, sentencing a 12 year old, 13 or whatever year old for murder if it was a murder or something else and they're going, he was giving them bail because he wanted never want to lock up kids. If he didn't avoid it, he would get down the bar table with him because it doesn't wear the wig and the nonsense. They'd say, now look, mate, he's a good communicator, as you know, this is your chance, you go away and do this, you've got to come back next week and if you've stuffed up, I'll know it and I'm going to get more serious about it. And the kid had come back in a week and Lex would sit down and go, how did it go? What did you do? Did you stuff up? Oh, yes, I did. What happened, you know, or no, I didn't. No, I've done well. I think at the time he resigned it was probably a bit early to tell, but it was quite a different approach. That's what we've got to be looking for. I mean we have really been talking about how to do this as long as I can remember. And the big youth crime thing seems to have come in surges over the years but, you know, probably 15 years ago, it's, oh, do we need to lock them? No, we don't want to lock out kids if we can avoid it. No argument about that. But we do need to protect the community. So when they're bad enough, we don't give them bail. When they've got, you know, when they've breached bail often enough and gone out and done violent, dangerous things, you have to protect the community. But the whole part of it is to try to put them on a better path, to distract them, to take them away from this, what they're doing. I remember the police were heavily involved down in the Geelong area, down sporting clubs. This is many years ago. They'd actually go around and see the kids who had done the wrong thing and they'd go to their house and they'd talk to them, they'd sort of get them involved in community issues.

[Host]

I remember there was a basketball program in Melbourne as well between police and Sudanese kids.

[Neil Mitchell]

That's right. And they walk. Kokoda.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Neil Mitchell]

These are marvellous ideas. How did Los Angeles get on top of it? How did Scotland get on top of it? We're just not looking up and at the bloody government for a couple of years now. We are not looking broadly enough. Okay, except we've got a problem which they're only now starting to do, having denied it. Except we've got a problem with youth crime and these aggravated burglaries and increased violence. Look around the world, what are they doing? Have they got on top of it? We've got to look smarter.

[Host]

Well, that's the thing. We have the information, we have very clear data about the ineffectiveness of sending kids to jail and about, you know, the recidivism rates and the number of those kids who end up in grown up jails and all those things. But don't you think it's a shortsightedness of the political cycle? It feels to me like people are always just trying to get votes. These things take time. The Scottish program's been up and running for a decade, but people seem to just look at the next election cycle and go, well, I don't want to look like I'm doing nothing or I'm being soft on kids. I'll be hard on kids, I'll be hard on crime, I'll make bail tougher to get votes. It's not really about the issue.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, I think, I think you're spot on. I was talking to a very senior current member of the state opposition in Victoria and he's of the belief that and he knows the area well. He's of the belief that you need to restructure the police force and that's going to cost money and there ain't no money in Victoria to fix the roads, let alone fix the police force. They'll do as much as they can without money. But all right, if it needs restructuring, let's actually work out what we want to do and start it, rather than playing. You're quite right. These political games lock them up for longer. Thump the table in outrage. A year ago, I was arguing for a Dad's army panel of Lex Lacery, Deborah Glass, the former ombudsman. She's looking for work. They're bored. Lex Lasari, Deb Glass, maybe Ken Lay, Bernie Geary, who's the retired youth worker. A number of people who are retired, are independent, have got plenty of experience and good minds. Get them together, not in a public thing, but a little advisory panel. And so here's the figures. What do we do? Just don't put political appointments on there. Put people who have got a view and are willing to support it.

[Host]

This is going to sound grandiose, but I really would like to commit this show, commit myself, commit time to our youth crime crisis in my home state, the state that I love, the city that I love, and to kids who I love. I actually quite like kids. I like teenagers and I would like to help them. I suppose I am a bit soft on offenders sometimes. I've certainly been accused of that, but I am always interested in the why. Where did this come from? Why is this happening? It goes back to that feeling of powerlessness. Neil, what can we do?

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, interesting. You say being soft on offenders. I mean, once the offence is committed. I don't know that tough punishment works with kids. I look more at the issue of softness as being. Well, when the warning signs are there. And as I said, they've committed 10 agbergs on bail and slash people up. But then you say, hang on, hang on, you've had enough. Not because you've reached bail, because you're a bloody danger, it will lock you up. The starting point is to have that independent advisory, hate advisory groups. But the government's not going to decide, they're going to make political decisions. You need people who can look around the world. They don't have to travel around the world, look around the world, talk to the people who've introduced these things, see where it's working, where it is. Nobody can tell me the international trends on youth crime. If you get online, you can have a Look at the LA police department, all these sort of things. But there seems to be no central point anywhere. And this is what Victoria should be doing is saying, well, even if New South Wales, Queensland, Queensland changed government changed their bail laws and they. I don't know if this is right, there might be political speak, but they claim that the youth offending rate has dropped about 40%. Is that right? I don't know. Have a look. If it is, why?

[Host]

Have a look.

[Neil Mitchell]

I mean it's just. It's not that far north. Go and have a look at that. New South Wales doesn't have the same depth of problems. Why South Australia did have. But they've come back a bit. Why? It's no good just saying, oh, jail punishment be tough on crime. Jacinta's weak on crime. In fact, in some ways it'd be crook to blame the government entirely. There's a mood started amongst younger kids outside the edge of normality, of the normal society, which is dangerous. Why? Maybe the government aggravated with the softer bail laws. That was part of it. But there's something else going on. What is it? How do we deal with it? And machete bends, you know. Sure, they're not gonna work.

[Host]

How did London do it? Years ago, remember there was massive knife crime problem with kids. And from memory I think they did a similar thing in terms of a ban certain knives. But then there was a lot of stop and search, wasn't there? There was a lot of stopping the kids at the train station and searching them and a lot of people don't like that. People are very soft on their own kids these days, Neil. I'd be perfect on AM talk back with that attitude.

[Neil Mitchell]

Well, Jack's Law. I don't understand the government's objection to that other than the fact the opposition raised it.

[Host]

Tell us about Jack's Law.

[Neil Mitchell]

Jack's Law is. Well, when you can go and search kids with reasonable cause, less cause than you now know, you can go and pat them down. Run a metal detector over, look for knives.

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[Neil Mitchell]

122,000 people have been scanned across Queensland since Jack's Law was first trialled in 2021.

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[Host]

My train station, near my place, we're near the beach. It would be a perfect spot for police to be. There's lots of kids there every weekend. Why aren't we doing that, that seems so basic because they're not going to go and throw them in the bin.

[Neil Mitchell]

That's an interesting thought. Say you've got 100 kids at your train station, the corral, all of them, and search them.

[Host]

Well, the police are there, Neil. That's the ridiculous thing. They're. They're just standing there looking, I don't know what, looking daunting or trying to create an image to the kids, but they don't actually do anything.

[Neil Mitchell]

And how many knives would they find? They'd get a smattering of weapons for sure and charge them. And the kid here sees the other kid getting nicked for having his knife on him and we see him going to court and getting into strife. Maybe he doesn't carry a knife, you know, that's preventing crime to do that. But it's also sending a message to the innocent kids who are there. Oh, geez. You know, you don't want to be walking around with a machete in your pants when. Why suddenly a machete is fashionable?

[Host]

I don't know. Where'd they all come from? I don't know. I've never seen a machete in my life when I was a kid.

[Neil Mitchell]

No, neither did I, but they weren't hard to buy. I think simply that you've had a few high profile crimes and fights with kids carrying machetes that the words got around and it looks cool. So we'll get a machete and the next thing you're using it.

[Host]

And maybe they don't realise what a serious weapon it is. We had an attack again in my neighborhood where a bloke had his hand cut off by a teenager with a machete because it's quick. It's not a forgiving weapon.

[Neil Mitchell]

No, it's not. And you see some of those fights in the shopping centers and the way they're waving them around. There's a lot of force by having got to hit an arm and the hand's gone.

[Host]

And at the end of the day they are kids. And anyone who's got kids and teenagers knows what bloody idiots they can be, you know, because they are kids, they don't know. They don't understand a lot of stuff.

[Neil Mitchell]

We weren't idiots when we were kids, were you?

[Host]

No, I was brilliant. I was right on top of all of it. I never made a mistake.

[Neil Mitchell]

We were idiots. We weren't running around with machetes.

[Host]

We weren't. We didn't have social media. I sound like an old lady, but I say this, I hate bloody social media. I Think it's the worst thing that's come across our civilization in a very long time. What do you think?

[Neil Mitchell]

Oh, yeah, I think you can't put it back in the bottle. I think only the government ban on kids under 16 is nonsense. It's not going to work. And what, you turn 16 and suddenly you can cope with it? They're coming from the right reason, they're doing it for the right reasons, but it's not going to work. And it's going to affect adults as well. When you log on, you'll probably be affected as well. But of course it's got a huge influence. But there's always been that influence. It's just much more broad now.

[Host]

It's reaching more people and it's desensitizing us too, isn't it? I do think that as a culture we're less impacted by violence.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah. I was looking at the people being executed by Hamas in the streets of Gaza the other day after the ceasefire and I thought during the ISIS days you'd see footage of people about to be beheaded, but they would stop at the beheading. Here we, there's the rifle, there's the bang, there's the head burning, blown away. Now he's dead, you see, the whole thing hurts. That has to be desensitized. And the kids with the machetes, I don't know that they understand the consequences. I mean, you know, I think of myself as an 18 year old on the roads. I wasn't stupid and I'd been around media journalism long enough to see the horrendous nature of what can happen on the roads. But I still drove fast.

[Host]

Yeah, well, I always say there's a reason we send 18 year olds to war because they don't really understand the consequences. It goes back to what we were saying and what you were saying earlier about Lex Lasri and Supreme Court judges having the responsibility of sentencing children. Yes, I understand their crime is terrible and they've ruined other people's lives. But at what point do we accept that they're kids and I can't lock them up for the rest of their life? Can I take their life as well?

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, I know I haven't talked about specific cases with Lex. He's too proper for that. But I do know that he sentenced very young children and what angst had caused him. I guess when a child has murdered another, you've got no choice other than some form of incarceration. But you've then got to look to the next step. Well, we've got to get them out and we've got to get them back in the real world. We can't have them coming out a more accomplished murderer.

[Host]

Well, I spoke to Frank Vincent, former justice. Yeah, beautiful man. And I mean, how many years was he sentencing people? And that was the first sort of topic that he raised with me, was the pressure, the responsibility of having a very young offender standing in front of you who's committed a terrible crime. But to send them to jail for the rest of their lives, it keeps him awake at night still.

[Neil Mitchell]

Look, Frank Vincent's gray sense denier, by the way, initially never to be released, and as I recall, had tears in his ass. He did. A very compassionate man, very good judge, very good thinker over his time. And he's right. It's a bit like capital punishment. I'm not sure that when the section of public talks about capital punishment, they say, hang him or shoot him or whatever. It's a bit like saying, lock these kids up for 10 years. Well, where are you? Hang on, hang on. Just think this through. It is not that simple. You. Okay, you execute that man, is it really going to reduce the murder rate? No, it's not. You lock this kid up for 10 years, what's going to happen when he comes out? He's going to be another lifelong incarcerated person.

[Host]

And again, we have data, we have very clear data to tell us what happens to young people, the younger they are, when they're locked up for longer. As soon as someone looks weak on crime. Oh, my God, everybody, the media, the opposition, you know, it's like the worst sin a person can commit is compassion when it comes to offenders.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, but have we got any answers? I mean, compassion's appropriate, but it needs to be blended with an approach that protects the community and reduces the chance of recidivism. Because the recidivism rates are just appalling. These are kids who go. Who get caught, go to court, go to detention sometimes, or get punished, and sometimes. And they're just at it again. So something's not working there. Something's failing badly with this cohort of recidivists.

[Host]

Well, those involved in the Scottish program would say, because it hasn't been nipped in the bud, because they haven't addressed the issues that are leading this person to crime, that are making it seem like a positive outcome for them.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, but it also gets to the stage where it's too late. If a child at age 12 starts committing serious offences and they're still doing it at age 18, you've probably got a crook for life.

[Host]

But how do you know, Neil? That's the thing, you know, how do you look at a bloke and say, okay, we're done with you, we're done.

[Neil Mitchell]

I know the police, I think it was Shane Patton said to me, it might have been Graham Ashland, but Shane Patton said we've got to effectively give up on a certain group here, these long term recidivists who are now getting into adult levels. So therefore adult prisons, we've just lost them. So it's a lost section of that generation.

[Host]

You know, it's interesting for some reason, Peter Dupass just popped into my mind because I'm always furious. A serial rapist who became a serial killer.

[Neil Mitchell]

Dupass is a serial rapist with convictions dating back to 1974. He murdered Nicole Patterson and Margaret Marr in a similar brutal fashion. Pat Both women's bodies were mutilated. Justice Hollingworth described Jupass's attack on Messina Helvagas as savage and ferocious. Trying to explain his actions, Justice Hollingworth stated that Jupass seemed to be motivated by a deeply entrenched, perverted and sadistic hatred of women and a complete contempt for them and their right to live.

[Host]

When I read and researched his criminal history, the number of opportunities this man was given, the number of short sentences this man was given for rape, aggravated rape, it felt like no one gave up on him for a very long time. He was given opportunity after opportunity.

[Neil Mitchell]

Just a quick story about Gary David. His father was a career criminal. As a child his father nailed him to a wall, mistreated him horribly, abused him. He shot up a pizza parlor in rye in the 80s and left one of the people in the shop paraplegic. He went to jail, became a self mutilator, fought the system, was sort of in and out of jail a bit. I know his story well because he decided to write to me and then started ringing me in the days they were allowed phone calls. He's smart man. In fact, I used to have Jeff Kennan on every Tuesday at 9am and he'd ring at 8:30. He was due to be released and they found in his cell a manifesto for urban warfare and how he was going to get at flinderstreet Station and killed how many people. When this was found they said, well we're not, you're not getting parole. And he said, oh, it's all just a fantasy. If I write it out there, it's not going to happen. The labor government under Jim Kennan, like Jim Kennan was attorney general, passed A one man law to keep him in jail and he died in jail, he mutilated his stomach and didn't recover. But he was a man who was always, from the days he was nailed to the wall as a little boy by his dad was doomed and it was a matter of how much damage he did on the way out and who knows if he'd been allowed out of jail he may well have gone down to Flinders street and killed 10 people, who knows? There was no hope for that man and it wasn't identified or he wasn't. If there was help it should have been at the stage he was being nailed to the wall.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the idea I guess. Gary David is a fascinating. I had no idea he had any kind of. I tried to research him, he and couldn't find anything so I had no idea that he was ringing your radio show and writing you letters.

[Neil Mitchell]

The first time he wrote to me actually was interesting. Was I singing for Hinch? Hinch had gone to jail for one of his contempts, one of his early contempts. And we got all these letters as they were in those days, letters saying oh you know, we're with you Darren, that sort of thing. And I wrote a form reply, there were so many of the thousands of them which was thank you very much and you know, Darren will be back soon we hope. And one of those form replies went off to Gary Davis in Pentridge at the time and he of course thought it was a personal letter because it was addressed to you Gary and I'd signed them. I wasn't even aware I was writing to Gary David in Pentridge and he embraced me and started writing letter after letter after letter complaining about things and arguing about things and claiming he was hard on criminals. And I remember a very senior police officer I told him was happening, he said stop now, don't have anything to do with that man, he is seriously dangerous. And I stopped and he kept sending letters and phoning but I stopped taking the phone calls as well and in the end they cut his phone off, they wouldn't let him make calls but he was a very disturbed man and dang was.

[Host]

Yeah. I spoke to a former Pentridge guard who dealt with him who told us about the self mutilation but then also would fill his wounds with excrement to try and create infections and like seriously it seems to me I'm no doctor mentally ill and how does our mental health system factor in at the moment? Neil, I know that's a huge question to Ask you, but it just struck me as you were talking about Gary David and Jeff Kennett on your show on Morning, or Gary David wanting to be on the show. Geoff Kennett, of course, radically changed the mental health system in Victoria. Closed down. A lot of institutions had a plan that people should live in the community. How has that affected our crime rate, do you think?

[Neil Mitchell]

If you talk to anybody who works, and I've got good friends who work in the merchants departments at major public hospitals, talk to any copper in the van. What is happening in the major public hospitals and emergency departments? Frightening, because a lot of the people, a lot of what they deal with, the mental health cases being brought in by the coppers, usually aggravated by some sort of substance which they may or may not be high on at the time. The offer. They've got a room called the Behavior of Consume Room. It's just a padded cell and they put them in there, they tie them down and try and administer some medical treatment. People are getting attacked, stabbed and threatened and bashed. These are the doctors and nurses. A big part of that's the mental health problem. And the coppers have got nowhere else to take him. We've got this bloke storming around Chapel Street, Prahram, with a knife. We grab him, we put him in the cells, he's talking to God as we put him in the back of the car. Do we put him in the cells or we take him to hospital?

[Host]

Well, I've spoken to families of offenders and I'm sure you have as well, who have said, we knew we were in trouble, we knew our child, our sibling, was a danger to themselves and other people. We begged for help and, you know, we couldn't get any. There was nowhere to send them. We're hiding knives in the house and.

[Neil Mitchell]

Often the families of the victims. There was a period in Victoria that I can't remember the numbers, been over a very short period, there were eight people shot dead by police and several of them, probably most of them, were mental health cases. The police didn't do anything wrong. I mean, they were under attack from dangerous people and if they didn't use lethal force, they may well have died themselves. But Operation Beacon was introduced then to teach them some different skills. And it has worked to an extent.

[Host]

Which is a credit to them, because that's a lot to ascertain in a matter of seconds. When an offender is in front of you or a person, a human being is in front of you, is aggressive, is acting in a certain way, may be armed for a young Copper to have to ascertain in seconds as they're being charged. Is this a mental health issue? What is this?

[Neil Mitchell]

I remember having a tape one day. I don't know how it had been recorded, looking back, but it was in a street in a Bayside suburb and there was a person screaming and threatening and the police had been called and this person subsequently was shot dead and they had a knife as I recall. But the sound of their scream and the way they were shouting, you couldn't work out what they were saying was one of the most chilling things I've ever heard. I mean, it wasn't human and they were having a full on psychotic episode and they end up shot dead. No option. They were going to hurt the coppers or somebody else. But God, Jesus, you'd hope there's a better system, wouldn't you? When a person's sick and that's sick, and maybe there is, maybe it's a bit better now, but it can be dangerous on the streets, as we've seen a bit lately.

[Host]

Well, in Australia you can't present yourself to hospital and ask to be admitted for psychiatric care. No, you have to go to emergency, you have to be triaged and you have to ask and hope that they will agree. But depending on the bed situation, I mean, even in America, Neil, you can go to a psychiatric facility and say, I need to get in here for a while and they'll do it, they'll let you in. But in Australia, no, I'm not surprised.

[Neil Mitchell]

I didn't know that. But I do know from my friends who work there that they're dealing with cases of people who either brought in my family or police or come in and are seriously, seriously unwell and a danger to themselves and they can't admit them, it's not enough beds or they've got to wait or whatever and that person's walking back out onto the street, which is not good for them or us.

[Host]

No, it is absolutely not. I'm excited that you're a podcaster. What drew you? What's your mission statement? What's your purpose with your show?

[Neil Mitchell]

Talk to interesting people and be interesting on the news a bit, but not always on the news.

[Host]

So the show's called Neil Mitchell Asks why, which is a great title because it does give you the scope to just ask why about anything, anyone, any. I love that. And you're a curious person. That's what's led to your success and I'm glad that you're still curious and you're over it. Did you Ever get over it? Do you ever have a period in your career where you went, oh, God, I just need two months in Bali?

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, I probably did. I remember having a rating slump and we were still number one, but the figures were down a bit.

[Host]

My heart bleeds, Neil.

[Neil Mitchell]

I used to. I used to dread ratings. I used to sit on the edge of the chair and be analyzing them. If I dropped half a point and if I went up three points, I'd say, we're going to come down next time. And a person I knew very well and a very successful business person in the business world, contact me one day and said, do you sound like you don't want to be there? And I think it was probably right. I did want to be there. I wondered. So I kicked myself in the butt and said, well, back to basics and do what actually interests you. Obviously, you try and assess what will interest the public, but if it doesn't interest you, you've got no hope. I can't act. The microphone exposes the soul to me. And I think any good broadcaster is like that. And if you can't act, well, you get caught. Out of caution.

[Host]

Yeah. Because there are two things going on, aren't there? There is the motivation, I get it, to have the numbers, to keep the numbers, to not lose. That's a huge pressure that we have on us as broadcasters in radio. We don't in podcasting necessarily, but also there is the passion. You gotta love what you're doing. You gotta get up every day and wanna get in there and do it. And I guess that's what I was asking, if you ever lost that and have you ever suffered vicarious trauma that's made you think, I need a break, this is too much. I'm talking about misery all the time.

[Neil Mitchell]

I have, but I always tried to make the program more variable, and except during COVID particularly the early days, it was. You'd get off air, absolutely rang out.

[Host]

You must be missing talkback.

[Neil Mitchell]

Oh, yeah. It's the best part of it. It keeps you honest. It surprises you. If you can identify the right caller to interview, you get great interviews. And I've had crooks ring me out of the blue with a guy called the After Dark Bandit. I was talking about crime one day, and he'd done 20 years of time for robbing tabs. That twin brother and I could never work out how he got to the different sites so quickly. And he rang and we talked at length about his criminal career and about how to deal with crooks and what it was like In Pentridge and the bad days, you know. So you used to rang me between the crime driven the Maria Corp. Yeah, absolutely. Murdered by her. Well they never went to tribe committed suicide but her husband and his partner, ex girlfriend, he used to ring me regularly pleading and crying and asking for people to help find Maria court when he'd already put her in the boot of a car in the city where she was slowly dying. Carl Williams would call me the gangster and his dad, that doesn't surprise me. So he's misunderstood Carl, that's all. And his dad would call me as well.

[Host]

Matthew Charles Johnson told Victoria's Supreme Court he has no regrets about killing Carl Williams. In April 2010, Johnson beat Williams to death in one of the most secure jail units in Victoria, but says he did so because Williams was planning to kill him using pool ball stuffed in a sock. How is it that a prisoner in this high security unit, you know, arguably the highest security unit in Australia at the time, is beaten to death with a piece of exercise equipment for 20 minutes without anyone noticing? That's my first question. And in fact dragged to his cell by his assailant because he was finished with him before anyone else came looking. My second question is how has there never been an inquest into that?

[Neil Mitchell]

The simple answer is I don't know. I have spoken to some former police, very senior police, who believe it was conspiracy.

[Host]

It's a bit, you know, if it walks like, and quacks like.

[Neil Mitchell]

I spent a career saying if you think it's a conspiracy, expect stuff up because I don't know how many conspiracies that I've investigated that turned out to be stuff ups. But I've also spoken to senior police who believe it was just a stuff up. But I do know there are people still around who believe it was a conspiracy of some sort at some level. Your key point though is that why has it never been properly investigated? And I don't, I don't know that if it has been. I haven't seen anything.

[Host]

No, there's been no inquest. Roberta continues to ask for one.

[Neil Mitchell]

But you know, if it was a conspiracy, something should have leaked by now. If it was just a stuff up, well, it was a stuff up, but if it was a conspiracy there'd be some whisper of it by now and why no inquest that couldn't be part of the conspiracy? Nobody's going to be able to block an inquest. If the coroner wants to investigate, he can. So obviously you would assume the coroner, who's a very good man believes that there's nothing there to investigate, but for the sake of public. I don't know, it's in people's mind now. They probably say he got what he deserved, but for the sake of public confidence, I think we should have a clear slate on it.

[Host]

Yeah, I think the Royal Commission raised it again as an issue once we learned that former Commissioner Simon Overland was not the person he presented himself to be or the organisation wasn't what it presented itself to be under his stewardship, the Nicola Gobbo, all of which, you know, Karl and Roberta were actively contacting the Ombudsman about Nicola Gobbo at this stage and saying something weird's going on there.

[Neil Mitchell]

There's a lot going on and we don't know yet. Both in the Carl Williams murder and a lot of the Gobbo stuff, we don't know.

[Host]

Will we find out, do you think, or has that all been sort of dealt with in terms of.

[Neil Mitchell]

Well, we still haven't got anybody responsible for the Gobbo thing, really.

[Host]

No, not technically. No one's been charged.

[Neil Mitchell]

I don't think any political party wants to reopen it. And it would need a political appointment of some sort, wouldn't it? A Royal Commission, another Royal Commissioner. I don't think we'll ever know. And I sure can remember the exact wording of the High Court was damning on what an obscene travesty it was.

[Host]

But then nothing. There's no charges forthcoming. So it feels like, I think we're aware as a community that the expense that goes into a Royal Commission and it's like, well, what was the point? The point? To let the Age print more stories about stuff. That seems to be the best thing that came out of it, you know, no one was charged or.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah. And again, I think the overwhelming public mood is, well, you know, crooks got locked up. Even though it was done wrongly, even though some we've got out. The public probably see it as a legalistic subtlety, which it isn't. It goes to the heart of the very system we rely on to keep us civilized. We haven't got enough answers on either of those things, either Gobbo or the Williams killing. And I don't know we ever will. What's the worst crime that sticks in your mind?

[Host]

You know, I was just thinking last night, for some reason I must have had a psychic flash that you can ask me this, that the time I used to edit this podcast myself for years and years and years, and I found myself one day I'd been Working on this one edit for days and days and I realised that I was absolutely tripping out on it. It was the Bega schoolgirls Camille and.

[Jerry (Insurance Advertiser)]

Lindsay Beckett dumped the bodies of two New South Wales teenagers in 1997.

[Host]

Bega schoolgirls Lauren Barry and her friend.

[Jerry (Insurance Advertiser)]

Nicole Collins were abducted, raped and murdered. Their deaths are still remembered as one.

[Host]

Of Australia's most horrific crimes. I'd spoken to Roland about it, Roland Legge about it, so he was one of the interviews. There was another interview and I'm trying to edit this 40 minute podcast, but for some reason I just couldn't finish. It wasn't good enough. I found myself obsessing over it and really troubled and really had to have a little break after learning everything about those two girls wandering away from a bonfire party and happening to cross paths with these horrible men. Even now, it's sort of putting a lump in my chest, you know, oh.

[Neil Mitchell]

That'S one of the worst I've seen. And I think the closer you get to it and you talk about trauma, I mentioned the Denier case and what I'd read there. Port Arthur I read through because I wrote a chapter of it in a book I was doing. I read through the entire court proceedings of his plea because he pleaded guilty and that gave the most horrendous details of what happened in the killing of each person. And at the time you already got to know Walter Mickak well, who lost his daughters, Alana and Madeline, his wife Nanette Gay and John Fiddler, who lay on the four of the Broad Arrow with their dead friends around them splattered in brain matter of their friends pretending they were dead while the killers took over them with his gun. And I knew these people and to read it always. Stay with me, Amanda. A lot of good was done after Port Arthur by Walter and Gay and John and others. The Lana and Madeleine foundation came out of that and it's done superb work.

[Host]

Well, in the gun buyback, I mean, when we're talking about trying to disarm a community, that was a very successful program.

[Neil Mitchell]

I remember we were setting up the Alana Metal foundation in my office with Walter and Gay. And I'm not sure Walter was there at that stage. He was still deep in grief. And they said, who do we want as the patrons? And I said, well, it's Prime Minister, Governor General, he will never get them. Let's have a go. Within hours, both the Prime Minister and the Governor General have agreed to be part of it. That's the mood that created. I mean, Walter's a lovely man and has gone on with his life. Gay and John are terrific people, but.

[Host]

That was a moment that challenged us culturally. And I think that's what knife crime is doing at the moment. I think we're looking at it going, this is not who we are. A mass shooting at a tourist site, it's like, that's not an Australian thing. It made us think about who we are and who we want to be and the culture that we want to live in and somehow unified and mobilized us.

[Neil Mitchell]

So, you know, but we also, around that time, a little bit earlier, had Hoddle Street, Julian Knight, Queen street from Witkovic. Seven people dead. There were a number of mass murders going on then. But you're right, port Arthur was 96. They were in the late 80s, Wall Street. But you're right, Port Arthur, sort of. No, we can't do this, can we? This. This isn't us. We've got to do better than this. And despite the horrible nature of some crime since and mass killings as well, thank God, as yet, we haven't gone down that path again.

[Host]

We have to find a way to find that unity and mobilize now with knife crime.

[Neil Mitchell]

Yeah, Tia, I don't know. Has the world become too cynical?

[Host]

I just have faith in Australians, so I'm actually very parochial at heart. Neil and I have faith in us. I think we are the luckiest country in the world. I won the dumb lottery of being born here. My parents won the dumb lottery of being born here. Like, I'm a very fortunate person and I'm aware of that. And I think we gotta protect it. Thank you to our guest today, Neil Mitchell. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Indigenous Australians can contact 13Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org au.

[Neil Mitchell]

The producers of this podcast recognize the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present, and those emerging. Hey, you want to pay just 10 bucks for your phone service at Boost Mobile? Just 10 bucks for your phone service at Boost Mobile.

[Boost Mobile Delivery Advertiser]

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[Neil Mitchell]

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[Host]

Requires autopay take control of the numbers.

[Jerry (Insurance Advertiser)]

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