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Australian True Crime
Revisiting A Deadly American Marriage with Jason Corbett's Family - ATC International
01:08:27
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- [00:00]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
We have had Molly Martens and our family occupy so much of our life and time that I've left that go a long time ago because I wouldn't want to hold that types of toxicity inside and myself and my body, I've been in that place before and it does no good for anybody for me in our life. And the Martins just don't figure in this life that I'm leading and living or will live in the future.
- [00:33]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Irishman Jason Corbett was living his dream. In 2006, he was married to Maggs, the love of his life. They had two beautiful children and they'd built their dream home near both of their extended families. Tragedy struck in 2008 when Mags died suddenly of an asthma attack. A year and a half later, Jason hired an American au pair to live in his home and help care for his children. That woman, Molly Martins, became his wife three years after that. In 2011, the family moved to North Carolina to be closer to Mollie's family. And in 2015, Jason was beaten to death in his bedroom by Molly Martins and her former FBI agent father, Tom.
- [01:18]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Davidson County 911. Walter Cedar emergency. My name is Tom Martin. I'm in Panther Creek Court and we need help. Okay, what's going on there? My daughter and husband, my son in law, got in a fight with my daughter. I intervened and I hit him in the head with. Fought with a baseball bat. With a baseball bat? Yes, ma'.
- [01:47]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Am.
- [01:49]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Is he conscious at all? No. Is he breathing? I can't tell.
- [01:58]
Michelle (Interviewer)
They were both found guilty of second degree murder and sentenced to a minimum of 20 years in prison. The convictions were overturned on appeal. The pair were convicted of the lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter and their sentences radically reduced with time served. They both returned to prison for a matter of months and today they are free. This story is the basis for the Netflix documentary A Deadly American Marriage in which the filmmakers had access to both sides and even accompanied the now teenaged children to court for the appeal hearings. Jason Corbett's sister, Tracey Corbett lynch and her husband have raised the children since their father's death by both she and Jason's daughter Sarah have released books aimed at defending his memory from what they say was a character assassination by Molly and Tom Martens. They join us on this episode of Australian True Crime to talk about what the documentary got right and what it got wrong. In telling their story, this is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created. The Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People Australia, the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [03:18]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
We found. Obviously, you know, it was a last resort and it was something I felt compelled to do. It's nearly a decade now and, you know, Jason's voice was twisted and silenced and stolen and, you know, like in the law, you can't defame the dead and certainly in the US and Ireland. And that's what happened to Jason. And for me, I felt it was the only platform to honor him truthfully and to correct the narrative, you know, that was used by the Martins to justify something really abhorrent and unjustifiable. And for me, it was an extremely complicated decision, you know, to agree that the Martins would participate. But, you know, people are intelligent and I felt it was important that they could see all aspects that was being presented to the world. But I felt ultimately I was satisfied with my input to the documentary.
- [04:19]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And Sarah, I've had a few people mention to me that they felt a bit uneasy about you and your brother being in the documentary or they felt, they felt uncomfortable watching you go through that, I guess. Tell me about it from your perspective.
- [04:33]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Well, for me, I spent so many years trying to be heard and I'm happy that I did the documentary. Yeah, it was, it was difficult to relive trauma, but at the same time it was something that I had chosen to do. We sat down as a family and I wanted to give evidence in court and, you know, I wasn't able to. I wanted to be a witness for my dad and I couldn't. So I agree with that. Netflix documentary was a good choice because we didn't know where a verdict was going to go anyways.
- [05:07]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And it wasn't something we entered into lightly as a family. It was many years of discussions and Jack and Sarah had been very vocal in wanting to have their voices heard and we had encouraged them, you know, that and explained to them around the judicial system, you know, and the importance of, of it. And we all had our, we had faith in that process. Unfortunately, you know, it didn't go the way we had hoped. And the district attorney had entered into a plea deal and, you know, we didn't have a say in that. We didn't have a seat at the table. Families are not included, you know, in this decision making process. And for the preceding eight years, Jack and Sarah had written, they'd given hours of evidence, you know, recorded with the district attorney and Davidson County Sheriff's Police Department. You know, there was a four week period where they were with two weeks with Molly Martens and her family. And obviously what the Martins had used, as I'm sure we'll discuss, and weaponized Jack and Sarah's words. For them, essentially, to get away with killing Jason, they had to carry the burden of that for so many years. So they were very vocal, certainly to Dave and I, and we were conscious of their age. But this ultimately became, you know, the only resort, really, for us to be able to share with the world what has happened and how such a. How it was such a travesty of justice, and perhaps, you know, it may affect some change in the future for other people. You know, we can't bring Jason back.
- [06:48]
Michelle (Interviewer)
I think it speaks to children's voicelessness in the legal system. We suffer that problem often in Australia as well. And certainly in your book, Sarah A Time for Truth, you speak often, you speak very clearly about your desire to be heard, because your words were used against you and used against your dad in the first instance, weren't they?
- [07:13]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah. I mean, the truth is, I lied for Molly, and she's free now because she used that lie in evidence to get away with killing my dad.
- [07:23]
Michelle (Interviewer)
How did that come about? I mean, I think it's so harsh for you to say that you lied. I mean, I understand what you're saying, but it's heartbreaking to hear you say that, because, yeah, you were manipulated into lying to the authorities just days after your dad was killed. So tell us how that came about.
- [07:42]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Well, the Martins have tried, and the defense have tried to say that it was an unannounced call and that we hadn't. Didn't have time to be coached. But the Martins were aware that the first social worker had planned to interview us, and there's reports that reflect that, and a lot of people think that, oh, how could we have been coached in such a short amount of time? But I had Molly whispering in my ear since I was three or four years old. You know, Molly had been telling me that my dad was a bad man and that my dad killed my birth mom since I was five, so. And I knew I had to go home with her. This was three days after she had beaten my dad to death. And I was giving these interviews while she waited to take me home. And I lied because I lied because I loved her. And Molly told me to lie about my dad, and I was scared.
- [08:40]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah. Jack made that point in the documentary when he said that, you know, she was the only mother, really. Either of you, certainly you had ever known you'd been with her since you were a toddler, you didn't remember your birth mom. And so did you have any distrust or fear of her or, you know, did you love her and want to stay with her at that time?
- [08:59]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Oh, absolutely. I was very afraid of Molly and I didn't trust Molly. Molly said a lot of things and a lot of what she said were lies. And evidence shows that Molly has a very disturbing relationship with the truth. And I knew that, but at the same time, I did love Molly.
- [09:20]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [09:21]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Someone that I loved and trusted was telling me to lie about somebody else that I loved and trusted, and they were calling it the truth.
- [09:28]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And you were how old?
- [09:29]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I was eight years old.
- [09:31]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah. I had to go back and watch the documentary again after reading your book, Tracy, my brother Jason, because it gave so much further context to their relationship and to the whole story. And one thing you did talk about was Molly's, as you said. Did you say disturbing relationship to the truth or something along those lines?
- [09:53]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Very complicated, yeah.
- [09:55]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Some of the things were touched on in the documentary, such as her lying to a bridesmaid about having been a friend of Sarah's birth mum, Mags, having gone to Ireland because she knew Mags and wanted to go and take care of her kids. All untrue. Going to a party and explaining, describing having given birth to you, Sarah, which obviously she never did. Tell us about some other stories that weren't included in the documentary. I mean, the wedding, for one thing.
- [10:25]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, I mean, like, we had become aware, obviously, Maria had claimed to us, which we had found out around the time of the wedding, that she had a sister. She had named that sister Grace, and she told us that sister had died of leukemia. No, as it transpired, she didn't have a sister. And we found that out at a later date. And it was very much like night and day, like a switch had flicked from when she was in Ireland to when she was in America. And of course, we didn't know she had Jason isolated, you know, and that had begun the whole gaslighting and that. But, you know, there were so many things that we didn't know at that time, like that Molly said that she was on the fringes of the Olympic swim team, which wasn't true. She said that she was on the Clemson swim team. Actually, we didn't know that she had a former fiance when she came to Ireland that she broke up with because she got into a relationship very quickly with Jason that she had broke up with and he had subsequently actually written a book about it. But I think, for Us around the wedding when we went over and discovering from the bridesmaids and family members that Molly had told them that she was actually friends with Mags, Jason's first wife, and that Mags had asked her to come to Ireland when she died to look after Jack and Sarah was very disturbing to us and alarming and raised, like, so many red flags. And this was the day before the wedding, you know, and it was of such concern that Jason's friend spoke to him. But at that stage, Jason had packed up lock, stock and bar, you know, changed his job, been reassigned to the us had bought a house for cash. He bought and paid for the house and had transferred €80,000 to Molly to furnish the house. He had paid 50,000 over to Tom Martens to pay for the wedding. Jason actually paid for the wedding.
- [12:31]
Michelle (Interviewer)
But the Martins told people that Tom was paying for the wedding, didn't they?
- [12:34]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yes, yes, yes. The Martins told people that it was Tom that was paying for the wedding. But, you know, and the evidence is there. I don't speak about these things lightly. And anything I do speak about, and obviously in my brother Jason, you know, I go into detail around that and that all of you know, my book and the details within it are backed up by facts and evidence and records and recordings.
- [12:56]
Michelle (Interviewer)
You also talk about the fact that Molly Martens had spent time in a psychiatric facility before moving to Ireland. Jason didn't know that for a very long time.
- [13:05]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, I don't know. Did Jason ever know about that, ever? I don't know. It was something that I discovered through connecting with her ex fiance, who had actually attended the psychiatric facility when Molly was admitted, I believe it was in Atlanta that she went for. She was there for several nights, and she was taking, as Keith, you know, details. Just a lethal mix of medications. And it was just weeks. I think it was within a week, a week to two weeks of coming to Ireland that she was released from that facility, you know, and I guess that makes you question, you know, the parents as well, you know, to allow your daughter to go and care for two very young and a vulnerable family. Because Jason had, you know, only been widowed in the year and a half before that. And Jack and Sarah were so very young, and she flew over to the other side of the world. In fact, she was turned away from Shannon Airport on her arrival initially and went back to New York and got on another plane. She was so determined to come to Ireland through another airport, you know, and it's important to note that a lot of what we have found out was after Jason was killed, you know, through the investigative work that I've done and also through the digital footprint, you know, that Jason has left and Molly and the recordings that we've had access to as well. So, you know, we were aware that Molly had shown pictures of Jack and Sarah before she had ever met them to a neighbor of her brothers to say that they were going to be her future children. You know, and we had no idea of this. What we knew was there was an au pair coming. And at that point in time, as Maddie settled in, it was a relief for us. We were welcoming Tamali. She was good with the kids at that time. Jason had been through such a terrible time and with two young kind of kiddos and having to work full time as well and managing a senior position as managing director in a company. And she was a help to him, and he embraced that. And obviously, you know, they entered into a romantic relationship then.
- [15:29]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah. And Jason spoke in a number of emails that both you have printed and that were in the documentary about his fear of breaking up with Molly because of the effect that it might have on the kids, on you. Sarah and Jack. He talked about they've already lost one mother. And initially he was talking about that in the context of wanting to slow the relationship down with Molly. Right. To say, I don't want to jump into anything.
- [15:57]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah. And to put that into context that, you know, when Molly arrived in Ireland in the March, she was sending in pictures of wedding dresses, you know, three months later. And the period of time where Jason is asking, let's slow things down, you know, Jack and Sarah have been through so much hurt, and they had agreed. So she arrived in March to put it in context. And by July, you know, he'd asked her, let's slow things down. And she's demanding that if you loved me, you know, you would, you know, move forward and don't you love me? And at that point in time, they agreed, or Jason really pushed to have some distance, to let them reflect. And she went back to America, and she was due to return to Ireland to get another job where they could continue in their relationship, but without her essentially having a seat at the table, you know, with Jack and Sarah, because everybody, it was such a fragile relationship, but she didn't. She came back into the house and very much, you know, was that person at the table.
- [17:06]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And it seems to have been a fragile marriage in a lot of ways, too. Got to the point where she, Molly, placed recording devices around the house and in the car to catch Jason in unflattering lights, in arguments and things like that.
- [17:22]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And to put that in context and like, there's a couple of things around that, and it's clear even on the documentary that Molly is not telling the truth.
- [17:30]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [17:31]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
She says that she engaged with a neighbor in the community where they lived in Meadowlands, who was an attorney who advised her in that year to begin recording. However, there is over 150 hours of recordings that we know, and we have records that she has been recording, had been recording Jason for a minimum of three years before that period of time. And if you can imagine, like, all of those recordings, that recording that is in the public and within the documentary was the one that they chose, which.
- [18:07]
Michelle (Interviewer)
I have to say.
- [18:08]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Does it paint either of.
- [18:09]
Michelle (Interviewer)
No, it doesn't paint either of them.
- [18:11]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Well, but there was one person aware.
- [18:13]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. One person knew they were being recorded. But I was just going to say, you know, no one comes out looking great, but at the same time, no one comes out looking terrible. I, I, again, I've spoken to people about it who've. Is that the worst recording she could find? That. Yeah. They're arguing over feeding the kids dinner. It feels like an argument we've all had when we're tired.
- [18:34]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And it's actually because Michelle, I'm married over 30 years and, oh my gosh, like, you know, we've had some hung diggers over the years.
- [18:42]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Right.
- [18:43]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
You know, and that's, that's a relationship, you know, none of us would like to have our worst selves aired. Jason would be awfully embarrassed.
- [18:51]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Of course. Yeah.
- [18:53]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
You know, to know that something like that was out there, however, you know, it's. I think if we all look honestly at ourselves in our own relationships, you know, we don't always cover ourselves in glory. The other side of that recording is that, you know, Molly had not been following up on Sarah's medical. She'd had bloods and that done the week before. But the other more important thing is that that was a specific section that was submitted at the end of that recording. Molly is actually can be heard on that recording whispering to Jack because Jason goes up to speak with Sarah and she is overheard whispering to Jack to go up and eavesdrop, you know, because she was very obviously divisive, you know, separating Sarah and Jack and Jason.
- [19:42]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
And another thing that's puzzling about that part of the documentary is, you know, I've been saying for years that there was recording devices in Molly and my dad's bedroom and all over the House. And Jack says in his victim impact statement that he saw recording devices in Bobby Martin's house a few days after my dad was killed in Ziploc bags. But Molly corroborates this and says that there is. That there was a recording device under her dresser next to her bed. So, you know, it makes you wonder.
- [20:14]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Does beg the question.
- [20:15]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
It does beg the question, where is that recording?
- [20:19]
Michelle (Interviewer)
The recording from the death of your father? That's another question that I had. Everyone I've spoken to has had. Hold on a minute. If. If there were recording devices all over the house and they were noise sensitive or something, they were kind of automated.
- [20:32]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Voice activated. Yes.
- [20:34]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Voice activated. So why was your father's, you know, death, the attack on your father, not recorded? Or was it.
- [20:43]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
There was two. There was multiple in that room. Do you know? I know that there was one in his wardrobe as well, and there was one in the bathroom. You know, I know where they all were because me and Jack had gone looking for them. And Jack saw recording devices in Bobby Martin's house in Ziploc bags, next to my dad's iPhone, his laptop and his hard drives, which all were asked to put into evidence, but were never found.
- [21:08]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
They were never recovered.
- [21:10]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Bobby Martins is Molly's brother. And you guys went there after your dad died, right? For a period of time, yes. The other question is, how did you kids sleep through this brutal attack? Much is made of the fact that you were in the house when this happened. You were sleeping in the house. And in your book, Sarah, you mentioned that you remember so much of that night. It's remarkable because you were so little. But you talk about having felt dizzy a little bit earlier in the night. You even said, I think, that you hallucinated a bit.
- [21:42]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yes, I did.
- [21:43]
Michelle (Interviewer)
What do you make of that night, of how you slept soundly through all of that?
- [21:48]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Oh, I believe I was drugged. You know, Molly gave me two pills, and I woke up twice that night. And one of those times, Molly gave me more medication and then brought me back upstairs. And the last time I woke up, I heard what sounded like loud shouting whispers between Molly and Tom. But I couldn't move and I fell back to sleep.
- [22:13]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And the next thing you knew, you were awoken by a police officer carrying you down the stairs, right?
- [22:18]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [22:22]
Michelle (Interviewer)
I can't believe how much you can remember. In your book, you talk about the fact that you think it's the therapy. You've done a lot of therapy. Jack's chosen not to. He's doing it his own way. But you think that the therapy has enabled you to remember so many details of that night. Is that a good thing, do you think?
- [22:39]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I think it's something that you can't forget and because, you know, I'd been interviewed so many times by police and I wrote down diaries since I could write and went to a lot of therapy that, you know, these are things that you can't forget.
- [22:57]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And given that your dad has never been able to tell his story of the night, even the details you remember are intriguing, to say the least. Interesting. And they really kind of add to the overall vibe of the thing. I mean, you talk about being taken downstairs, carried downstairs to the basement where Molly's mother was staying. Her parents were staying in the basement and she was reading her book with the dogs.
- [23:21]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I mean, what mother turns around and goes back to sleep when her husband runs up the stairs with a baseball bat? I believe Sharon Martin's mother knew exactly what was happening. And I also believe that she was in that room when my dad was killed.
- [23:34]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Do you?
- [23:35]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Absolutely. And, you know, both Molly and Sharon were wearing different pajamas before I went to bed.
- [23:44]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Wow.
- [23:46]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
And I do state that in the book, and I've said that from the beginning as well, but it's just, it's never been brought up in court or by media.
- [24:03]
Michelle (Interviewer)
If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you, you can contact 1-800-RESPECT on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800-RESPECT or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 11, 14.
- [24:35]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I think the travesty of justice was that there wasn't a retrial, you know, that all of this evidence would have come to light. You know, that the only thing that was used was Jack and Sarah's words, you know, at a time when they were in the care and control of the Martins for that two weeks period where they were isolated. Molly would not allow us to see or speak to them, even in a supervised visit. And that statement was used against Jack and Sarah. And it was a truly awful thing for any mother to do, in my opinion.
- [25:11]
Michelle (Interviewer)
I mean, look at the trauma that you still. That's obviously still very close to the surface with you, Sarah, about, you know, that interview that you gave when you were 8 years old. And I mean, both you and your brother talk about feeling that you'd Let your dad down and feeling. It feels like you've spent the rest of your lives trying to make up for that childhood interview.
- [25:32]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Absolutely. It was four weeks after my dad was killed that, you know, I was put back into the care of Tracy and David and I was just loved. And, you know, it gave me a chance once I got into therapy to make up my own mind of, you know, what actually happened, to actually be able to think for myself. But of course I, I carry a lot of guilt because I said those things. You know, those were my words and I understand why I said them and I do forgive that little eight year old girl. But I think A Time for Truth and the documentary is a small bit of redemption for me so that people will actually listen to me and understand that what I was saying in those interviews was just Molly's words. And even in the reports it says that when I talk about my friends, I'm very calm. And when I talk about Molly or my dad or their relationship, I get very tense. And some of the vocabulary that we use was not vocabulary for a 10 and an 8 year old.
- [26:33]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah, absolutely.
- [26:35]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
The children do both make some statements about Jason. We have to pay close attention to that. But they also use a lot of words that 8 year olds and 10 year olds don't generally use.
- [26:47]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
You had physically and verbally hurt my. Physically and verbally hurt my mom.
- [26:51]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
That's unusual and stands out.
- [26:54]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
And who told you about that? On my mom. My mom told me. She told me.
- [27:01]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Your mom told me there's a possibility the kids may have been coached. There's a lot of. This is what my mom told me about that night and about things that had happened in the past.
- [27:13]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
My mom told me. Not when I was 4, not when I was 5. Your dad is not. Thanks for your dad.
- [27:22]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I think it's very clear when both Jack and Sarah at the time, you know, Molly said, Molly said. And that's very much reflected in Molly's friends who were her character witnesses, you know, and it was very much any claims that she had made of abuse against Jason was very much Molly told me.
- [27:41]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Nobody heard any of the things that Molly said happened. And they didn't live in the home. You know, I lived there. I saw the way that Molly behaved.
- [27:52]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And the way your father behaved.
- [27:54]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yes, I saw their relationship. You know, I saw my dad bringing Molly home flowers and telling her that she looked beautiful. And I saw Molly tell my dad he looked fat and that he needed to lose weight. And I saw Molly beat my brother. And Molly taught me how to vomit. You know, none of them saw that. They didn't live with us.
- [28:12]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Okay, that's new information as well for those of us who've watched the documentary. I got from the documentary that she treated you differently, you kids, you and Jack, even from a video from very early on where the two of you were on swings. You remember that video? You're in Ireland. You're just a little one. I felt like I was bringing joy.
- [28:33]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Into Jack, Sarah and Jason's life. Sarah, how old are you?
- [28:39]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Two.
- [28:40]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Two and a half.
- [28:41]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [28:42]
Michelle (Interviewer)
How old are you?
- [28:43]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Four and a half.
- [28:44]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Are you sure you're not one and a half?
- [28:46]
Michelle (Interviewer)
No.
- [28:47]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Are you sure? But that noise you make sometimes, it kind of sounds like this.
- [28:53]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
That's kind of like a one and a half year old.
- [28:56]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And the way she speaks to you is different to the way she speaks to Jack. And he's only three and a half at that point. So tell us about those things that we don't know about what was behind her facade of perfect motherhood.
- [29:07]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah, I think that video does fly under the radar. I mean, we all picked it up straight away when we watched the documentary. But you can see that Molly speaks to me saying, oh, you're two. And as soon as Jack starts talking about how old he is, she makes fun of him.
- [29:21]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And she makes fun of him. She calls him a baby, which no 3 year old wants to be called. And she says, you make that, eh, sound like a baby. That really cut me. I was like, me too.
- [29:31]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [29:31]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Oh, that's an awful thing to say to him when you. And he's. He's being so loving to her in that video. It's heartbreaking.
- [29:39]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And it was. He's like, she got in his head at such an early age and such a vulnerable age. And like all he wanted, both Jack and Sarah wanted, was to be loved. That's all we all wanted was for them after the tragedy of losing their birth mother, was to love and be loved. And to actually see that, like, for me as a mother and obviously to Jack and Sarah now just like really, like gets to the core of my soul because they're the things, those insidious things that begin, you know, with coercive control that we don't always recognize. And again, you know, I do go back to the reason why we're here, Michelle, and interviewing is that we can't change or experience, but perhaps there's somebody there listening, you know, and wondering, is that me? And to perhaps encourage them to go and talk to someone or just be a Bit more reflective on their own experiences in my career, you know, in the nonprofit and working, you know, with families from, you know, lower socioeconomic areas, you know, with different challenges and difficulties. And, like, for me, like, trying to understand this is another level entirely, an understanding, coercive control of children as well, you know, it really is, you know, deeply disturbing, I suppose, because I was in it. I mean, I was kind of friends with them.
- [31:12]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I suppose the hardest thing through therapy, one of the hardest things for me was realizing it, you know, because when you're a kid, whoever your mom and your dad or your dad is, you know, mom and dad love you. And as you get older and as I was going through therapy, you know, you realize that the person that you thought was your mom and loved you unconditionally never did, you know, and it took years for me to confront my trauma, and it left me quite scared because someone that I loved and I trusted could do all of these awful things and betray my trust. Like flying the plane over our school when we came back to Ireland, or contacting friends or going on national radio in Ireland. And, you know, if you love your kids, you want the best for them, and if that means that you can't be in their life, then that's what that means. You wouldn't try and make their lives harder.
- [32:11]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah, but abusers just keep finding ways to abuse people, don't they? I mean, through the legal system, through. In your case, through social media, through trying to hire a company to fly a banner over your school. It's extraordinary the lengths that she went to. To try and keep that control over you.
- [32:30]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah. Molly. I do say, when people ask me, do you think Molly loved you? I don't believe Molly did love me and Jack.
- [32:37]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I believe she taught you.
- [32:39]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I believe that she believed that she did.
- [32:41]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah. She's got a twisted idea about what love is. Right.
- [32:44]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I don't think. I don't think she knows what love is. You know, I. I don't. I don't believe that she can feel that. I think she loves control. And she could control me and Jack because we were so young and she got into her head so young, and she liked that feeling. And we were all pieces on her chessboard.
- [33:03]
Michelle (Interviewer)
This has got me thinking back to what you said a minute ago. She taught you to vomit. Do you mean in a bulimic sense? Yes. Which is, again, a control issue. Right?
- [33:11]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah. Molly and Sharon were very strict on food and diet. And Molly showed me how to get sick so that I could stay skinny for swimming and she also showed me how to shoplift. And Molly, it was like she liked the excitement of it. And when she got caught, she would blame me and say, oh, my daughter must have picked this up.
- [33:36]
Michelle (Interviewer)
My jaw is on the ground. Wow.
- [33:40]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
You know, and when I was younger, this was my normal. I didn't know any different until we were at dinner and Tracy realized that I was gone to the bathroom for ages and caught me making myself sick. Or the time I tried to put a bracelet in her bag.
- [33:53]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Oh, Tracy.
- [33:55]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, it was. We were grieving, you know, there was trauma. And then we were uncovering these things that we had absolutely no idea or experience of. And it was. It was a birthday, and Sarah had been missing from the dinner table for, you know, an extended period. So when I went to the restrooms, she was vomiting, and I just actually didn't know what to do. Sarah was nine at the time.
- [34:25]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [34:26]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
You know, so we obviously, you know, we didn't address it right there and then, of course, you know, and then on another occasion, we were shopping in a large department store, and she just picked a bracelet, I think it was a tennis bracelet, up, and dropped it into my handbag. And I was. I remember being so angry, you know, just that response of, like, you can't do that. And, like, I was terrified. I thought, you know, security. And it was quite an expensive store.
- [34:55]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And Sarah just didn't understand, you know, that this is theft. This is not okay. And again, we obviously dealt with it, you know, at a later date, later time when we got home and that. And these are all isolated things. I think it took some time and for Sarah to look at all of those together in terms of her experiences.
- [35:19]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I mean, when I came back to Ireland, I thought that I was gluten free, dairy free, and that you're allergic. Marty had told me that I was allergic to gluten, to dairy, that I was celiac. And it was actually my brother, Adam. I asked him for the toast or bread, and I said, is this gluten free? And he said, yeah, it is, and it wasn't.
- [35:40]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Now, we had had her bloodstone. We knew.
- [35:42]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [35:42]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
We just hadn't introduced Sarah. We didn't feel she was quite ready to the concept of. Look, this is because we knew they were dealing with so much trauma.
- [35:50]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And it sounds like you'd survived a cult by that stage, doesn't it? It sounds like sort of deprogramming somebody. Yeah.
- [35:58]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, actually does.
- [35:59]
Michelle (Interviewer)
What do you think was Molly's actual motive for all of this? I got the impression from everything I watched and read, I have the impression that she was more into your kids than she was into your dad. In a weird way, like she didn't want him, she just wanted you to.
- [36:16]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I think that's clearer to everybody and had becoming clear to us and to Jason and leading up to certainly the months and in particular the weeks before he was killed, because, you know, the relationship was deteriorating. On the August before Jason was killed, actually the 12 months before, he had come home for two weeks on his own to Ireland with Jack and Sarah. And I recall having a heart to heart with him in the beach. And he was, you know, the relationship was in trouble and he was starting to have some concerns about Molly. He had no idea what Molly was doing to Jack and Sarah in terms of, you know, telling them that Jason had suffocated their birth mom, his wife, who he had adored, who died of an asthma attack. But he had from that point been discussing how he would get home and that he would have to have the kids out of the country before the Martins knew. When he returned after those two weeks, he actually came back again and he would have stayed with my husband and I and our two kids with Jack and Sarah. Molly wasn't on that trip in August, but he returned in December for Christmas. His last Christmas on Earth was with us, and he'd spent the two weeks with us. And Molly had come back with Jason and the kids at that time. So we were certainly aware that Molly wanted and was obsessed with Sarah and Jack and just didn't want, you know, the relationship with Jason, but she wanted his kids. At any time.
- [38:00]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
She went as far as dyeing our hair blonde so that we looked more like her. And unfortunately for Jack, it turned out to be gingerbread. And she told my dad it was just a joa fad with all the kids and everyone was doing. Was doing it, and that just wasn't true. She said it was lemon juice, but I remember with the bleach of sitting on the side of the bathtub and.
- [38:22]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Her bleaching her hair, I think one of the most difficult things for me was how divisive she was between Jack and Sarah.
- [38:31]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
And, yeah, we had this thing every winter that it was called the Polar Bear Challenge. And it was an indoor pool that we would go to, but there was an outdoor pool. And the whole point of it was that, you know, you jump in and you swim across the pool, you're a polar bear. You jump in, you swim a little bit, you're a seal. But if you jump in and you get back out again, you're a shrimp. And some of the kids, you know, wouldn't dare even getting in. And Molly didn't care if they didn't get in. But, you know, I wouldn't have said, no, I'm not getting into Molly. And every year, Jack was a polar bear, and every year I was a shrimp. And, you know, I remember her pointing at me and laughing in front of all of the other. Other kids there and saying, oh, Sarah, you're just little shrimp. You're a useless little shrimp, you know? And even in the swimmer months, she would put me down to the baby groups because I didn't swim fast enough for my heat. And if Jack lost or I lost, we didn't eat. She pit me and Jack against each other to the point where I would tattletail on Jack to get him into trouble, and he would tattletail on me to get me into trouble. Because if Jack was in trouble, then I was the favorite, and if I was in trouble, then Jack was the favorite.
- [39:42]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
We actually have a video of Sarah at a swim. Jason had sent it to us. Sarah was swimming. I don't what was the stroke I.
- [39:52]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Was meant to be swimming. Front crawler, freestyle. But I. I got in the water, and I started swimming butterfly by accident, and he. He was cheering me on. And I realized halfway through that I was swimming the wrong stroke. But if I changed, I would have been disqualified, so I had to stay with that stroke. And I remember afterwards, and I still placed really well. I think I got second, and I got out of the water, and, you know, I. I went over to Molly, and she pulled me aside and told me how I embarrassed her and how. How could I be so stupid? And she was giving out to me. I started crying. And I remember I went up to the stands to my dad, and I was saying that I was sorry to him. And I was crying, and my dad looked at me kind of funny and kind of laughs a little bit. And he was like, sarah, why are you crying? You did so well. He was like, you stayed in the hardest stroke, and you still managed to place really well. And he said he was proud of me and that he had sent the video then to back home to everyone to see it. And that was the difference between Molly and my dad. My dad was just happy to see me happy, happy, you know, he wanted to see me try my best and enjoy myself.
- [40:57]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Do you think Molly was raised this way?
- [41:01]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I don't know.
- [41:02]
Michelle (Interviewer)
You said earlier that her mother was equally sort of obsessive about Weight and skinniness and all of that.
- [41:09]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
The reason I say that is because I'd gotten a new dress one time, and I had gone in to show Sharon because I was really excited to show your grandmother the pretty new dress. I was swinging around and showing her my new dress, and she looked me dead in the eye, and I think I was probably 5 or 6, and she just said, you look fat in that, and walked away.
- [41:29]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Oh, my God.
- [41:31]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
And I just remember feeling absolutely deflated. And I think that's kind of where I started the thought of, oh, I need to be skinnier. I need to be skinnier.
- [41:40]
Michelle (Interviewer)
It's very conditional, isn't it? Their love and. Well, their love is very conditional on meeting these standards. How long did it take you kids to unravel all of this when you got home to Ireland to unravel the relationship that had been created between you by Molly, to unravel this sort of cultish mentality about your eating and all of that kind of stuff? How long do you think it took?
- [42:04]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
It took years of counseling and, you know, different types of therapies and understanding what a real family looks like and the way your mother's meant to treat you. And I think a lot of it kind of came to me in segments with therapy. You know, it didn't all come to me at once, but anytime I had a memory, anytime something came to mind, I wrote it down. And I suppose that's where a time for truth kind of came from, because it was all of the memories that I had I wrote down.
- [42:33]
Michelle (Interviewer)
That reminds me, by the way, you make me think about your counselor, who you talk about in the book. Both of you have written books that feel like they're full of thank you notes. They're so sweet, the way you both name everyone. You go into the detail of what they did for you, of how grateful you are to them. It seems, if I may say so, very Irish, very well mannered, very kind, very gracious.
- [43:03]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I think it's acknowledging the truth. Yeah. And that was for me with my brother Jason, from the very beginning, you know, I was in a foreign country dealing in the courts, you know, absolutely at sea. And I looked for support from my network and my friends and obviously the media to a certain extent, when we were looking at getting custody and guardianship, because the Martins had, you know, Molly Martin had filed for custody, adoption, and guardianship of Jack and Sarah, and she was trying to cremate Jason's body. And there was just so much. And I was in a foreign country that I was trying to deal with. And I had so many people that had come out and just supported me. And I think it's important to acknowledge that because I simply could not have done it alone. I am not an attorney or an investigative journalist or a rich person. Or a rich person. Absolutely not. And we liquidated absolutely everything we had, and I do it all again in a heartbeat. I really do like the concept of pay it forward. You know, I've tried to. And Jason had, you know, volunteered and tried to live a good life, you know, and to, you know, be socially minded. So I think when I needed the help and the support and the advice or referrals, I got that. And I really felt it was important to acknowledge what people do, and hopefully, you know, we can all do it. And I hope to do it, you know, by speaking here and now by sharing our lived experience with others. So. Yeah, I mean, is it an Irish thing? Yeah, I think it's a thing. But we've. We've had, you know, support from all over the world. I mean, and particularly since the documentary from Australia.
- [44:55]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Oh, that's so Good.
- [44:56]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
We had 10 messages last night on social media from people, you know, who've. Who've had not such. Has had difficult experiences, but those who've just seen the documentary and offering their support. So it gives a sense of solidarity and support as well to you, because it's a very lonely space to be in.
- [45:27]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah, I think it's. It's important for us to thank the people who did help us, because people always say it does take a village and, you know, even a light away home for Jack and Sarah. That happened in Limerick before me and Jack even came home from America. I didn't even know that happened until months after I had gotten back to Ireland. And seeing the amount of people that showed up just to light a candle and hope that me and Jack got home safely, it made me cry because I just. I didn't realize how many people, honest, kind people, just cared for two young kids. And I think it really showed, you know, what we can do if we all work together.
- [46:02]
Michelle (Interviewer)
From my perspective, your story is really valuable because it's a story of domestic violence where a man is the victim. And, you know, we try and tell stories about that situation, but for lots of reasons, they're hard to come by in terms of having families share them. There's a lot of stigma. Yeah. Shame attached by men who are victimized.
- [46:27]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah. And I felt. Jason perhaps felt that from uncovering the details of his life and, you know, the Recordings and, like, with him looking for the divorce and the difficulty that he was experiencing. And you can imagine being almost the fulcrum of the information, be it the recordings, the digital disclosures from Jack and Sarah independently, because Jack and Sarah didn't actually speak to each other for a long period of time. I mean, Molly had really done a number on their relationship and their trust and their relationship with each other. So, like, for us, we certainly it uncovered a very sad, lonely, and isolated period in my brother's life, down to the fact when Molly had been, you know, recording him while he was, you know, he would take the driving to work to call to speak to me or his best friend Paul, which was early in the morning in North Carolina and it was lunchtime for us, and, you know, then he would be able to speak a bit more freely. However, you know, he then discovered a week before he came back that Molly had had a recording device in the car. So I think the sense of betrayal and isolation and loss and shame, you know, I mean, must have been just incredibly visceral for him.
- [47:51]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And helplessness, I'm sure.
- [47:52]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And helplessness. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and it's really difficult, as his sister, when you uncover that after. When it was too late.
- [48:04]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Absolutely. When she's killed him. And that is a fact, that is a legal fact that she and her father killed Jason. And if the genders were reversed, it would be a pretty clear narrative. It seems to me that we have all of this evidence of coercive control. We have things like one partner recording the other, and one partner going home, making trips alone, starting to think about escaping, getting out of the relationship. And we know that that is the most dangerous period of time for victims of domestic abuse, and he was murdered during that period of time. So for her then to claim victimhood is. I think it only works because of the way the genders are.
- [48:51]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I agree. I agree, because I believe that. What I believe is that obviously the relationship was deteriorating and Molly was spiraling. I believe she planned to kill him. Jason had looked for a divorce in the week or two prior, and there's a recording of that. Jack, Jason's son, had discovered the recording device in the car the week before. The hidden devices all around the house and, like, under the nightstand, as Sarah has said, there was a recording device. And I believe that she panicked and started to spiral and called her parents, who had dinner reservations with Tom's boss that night. And that has been proven and entered into evidence. Sharon, Molly's mother, had been there 48 hours beforehand it was five hour drive away, you know, so she called them after finding out that Jason was leaving. He had a bag packed. He had looked up flights. He had told Jack and Sarah that they were going on a trip the next day. He had asked him already did they mind moving back to Ireland. And I think that realization for Molly that he was leaving really sent her into a spiral. And Sharon and Tam arrived. Sharon arrived with her mint. You know, we know that Jason had ingested drugs prescribed to Molly, which was Trazodone.
- [50:19]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Well, the other thing is the Martins talked about Jason being drunk. Molly and her dad talked about him being very drunk during the attack. The forensic evidence came back to disprove that the blood alcohol reading was low.
- [50:32]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah. And Michelle, I demanded that the Davison County Sheriff's Department did the toxicology and checked for drugs in Jason's system. And I remember they had said, but it can't definitively prove that she actually gave them, which how could you without having a video of, you know, her putting it into a mojito, for example.
- [50:53]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Her sedatives.
- [50:54]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, yeah, her sedative. So, you know, it was very much, you know, I like, wanted them to check because that's exactly what I felt had happened. Because actually, Jason had gone to his doctor a week or two beforehand feeling unwell, and her dad had actually told a story around Molly drugging him when he'd asked her for two painkillers while they were at a baseball.
- [51:16]
Michelle (Interviewer)
That's right. As a joke.
- [51:17]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
As a joke, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I believe that she absolutely drugged him. The toxicology did show and they claimed that Jason was drunk. That was not correct. The forensic evidence shows that he wasn't at all. I think it was my daughter who was under the limit, safe to drive. And the forensic evidence, like I have written to the forensic specialist several times and nobody has, from the very moment I have believed that Molly had drugged him and had hit Jason over the head, which was the point that broke his nose while he was asleep and that he was awakened and disorientated making his way into the bathroom.
- [52:03]
Michelle (Interviewer)
The blood spatter evidence also suggests that he was first attacked when he was in bed.
- [52:07]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there isn't anything I am saying that isn't corroborated by the forensic evidence. And I believe that it was Molly and the door was closed. And, you know, the blood evidence on the back of the door, there's a hand print. And I believe that was Jason trying to escape. And, you know, I believe that Molly went and got her father after the fact. And in an attempt to cover Molly's carnage, Tom Martens used the baseball bat to cover what she did. And that's the reason why nobody could ascertain the amount of times Jason was hit. You know, So I believe that he was absolutely, you know, should have been convicted of murder as well, you know, but I do believe Molly planned it.
- [52:59]
Michelle (Interviewer)
This is just a nightmare. All of it is a nightmare. It's a nightmare for you both to know these details, for it to have happened and for you to have to know these things.
- [53:08]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [53:09]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Sarah, how do you have a normal life? You're a young woman. You were a child when this happened. How do you get through your teen years and get on with your life?
- [53:21]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
You know, I, I, A lot of therapy, like I've said, and I've had a really good support system as well, you know, having my family there for me and I mean, I think because I was so young when everything happened, it was kind of what I was used to. But I've had a normal life. You know, I, I have a normal life in Ireland and I have a really good family who have supported me for many, many years, since the day I was born. And, you know, I've done everything that I could with therapy. I've done everything. I've thrown myself into it because I wanted to be better. I wanted to feel better. I didn't want to be sad all the time. And I'm not saying that I don't have bad days. I do have bad days. I think everybody has bad days, but I have more good days than bad days now.
- [54:13]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I think we live along. It lives alongside you, you know, and your experiences. And we have, like, where we are living with it, but we're not stuck in it either. Michelle, you know, like Sarah's, she's, you know, 18, she's turning 19 in September. And she's a qualified swim teacher, a commercial and surface supplies diver. She's just qualified as. She's studying as a master diver at the moment.
- [54:39]
Michelle (Interviewer)
I didn't know that was even a thing. Congratulations.
- [54:42]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's like master diver, which is recreational, and then the commercial side where you're under and working offshore and that. So she just qualified in that.
- [54:51]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
So.
- [54:52]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And as a huge circuit of friends. So, yeah, I think we kind of like there is this experience, but it doesn't define us.
- [54:59]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
No. I think although it's been really, really difficult, I think we realize how important it is to live our lives as well and to be happy, because I Know, my dad wouldn't want me to sit at home and cry all the time. He would tell me to get up and get out or something, you know, like, he. That's the type of person that he was. He would want me to go out and do horse riding. I remember the last Christmas we had together, I was absolutely obsessed with horses. And he was there when I had had my obsession. We were walking on the beach together, and these big giant horses came galloping past with jockeys. And I remember my dad kind of was startled because I was tiny and they were huge. I was walking towards them. So he picked me up and I was like, dad, I want to do that. I want to do that. And he was like, okay, all right, Sarah. Thinking that it was just something that I was saying. And little did he know I was going to be obsessing and ask for a horse till I was 14.
- [55:53]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
You're still asking?
- [55:54]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah, I still ask. I ask Santa every year. But the next Christmas, he got me, Went into this really nice place and got me horse riding boots, a helmet that had, like, bows on it and flowers on it and a crop. And Joe, what was the. The nicest thing about that gift was that the boots were too big for me, that I actually didn't get to wear them until I was 12 years of age. So it was like I had gotten a Christmas gift from my dad, even though he had passed away years before. That's just the type of person that my dad was. He. He. He wanted us to go out and live our lives and live it to the fullest. And, you know, we didn't have a lot of time together, but he taught me a lot of lessons, you know, to love people. And I hope I got some of his traits, you know, but definitely to just be a nice person. I remember we were going through a drive through me, Jack and my dad as sheets in America. And me and Jack sitting in the car. And my dad started talking to this woman who was really upset, and her. Her kids seemed to be crying in the back of the car. And I don't know what he had said to her, but he went inside and when they came back outside, he had bought her groceries and had filled up her car with gas. And I remember he got into the car and I asked him what he was doing, and he said that she didn't have the money to get the groceries or the gas. And I kind of looked at him funny. And my dad just looked at me and said, you should never judge a book by its cover. You don't know what's going on in someone else's life. And that's something that I've kept with me because I definitely relate to it. Not everyone knows what's going on in my life. And it's important to think, okay, put myself in that person's shoes. Maybe they're not in a good mood today because they've had a really bad day or they've had some really bad news, not just to jump to the conclusion that they're being mean because they want to be.
- [57:51]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [57:52]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And you're clearly surrounded by memories, other people's memories, which are. I remember someone telling me once that whenever they meet a new person who knew their loved one, it's like such a gift to hear a new memory, to hear a new story they hadn't heard before. I mean, I feel like we got such a great sense of your mum.
- [58:10]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah, absolutely.
- [58:11]
Michelle (Interviewer)
In the documentary, you know, and also in your book, Tracy. So you've got that gift, haven't you? You're surrounded by a pretty large extended family, all of whom absolutely loved both of your parents.
- [58:22]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I love when I meet people who, you know, have come across, and even with the documentary, you know, that I didn't know, that has a story or has crossed paths with Jason or Mags or went to school. And recently, you know, there was a priest actually, who reached out to us and we had lunch with him, and he had actually been Mags mentor, and she was a leader in a leader course at school. And, like, he just shared so much of her when she was young with us, which was really special. And it was so nice and it brought so much memories back for me because, you know, we were friends and when we were younger and, like, had such wonderful experiences and time together. And then obviously, kids came along and then, like, that was a beautiful period of time as well. But it was so nice to actually just revisit those lovely memories.
- [59:17]
Michelle (Interviewer)
And I can relate to. I mean, how isn't it a beautiful relief when your baby brother marries a great woman? Mine did as well, isn't it? It's just. And has a beautiful baby, and to see your baby brother happy and settled and in a great life is just one of the best things that can happen, I think. And you had that with him and Max.
- [59:36]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Absolutely. It was lovely. And it was the sweetest time in all of our lives. Really lovely. You know, and the weeks leading up before Mags died suddenly, you know, we're just. Sarah was 12 weeks old when Mags died. And, like, in the weeks before that was Jack's birthday party and like, everybody, all our friends and family were all out in the house. And then it was Sarah's christening, you know, and all those really lovely special memories when they got married, you know, still would stay with us. All people leave that kind of wake up, you know, when they leave us. And that's what kind of keeps us going, really. You know, I mean, life. What's life about if it's not love? You know, ultimately.
- [60:18]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah. And people leaving a great wake. That's a really beautiful way of thinking about it because it's still. Those ripples are still huge.
- [60:26]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah. I'm sitting next to one of Jason.
- [60:31]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yes, you are. Can I ask if either of you are tempted or maybe do you keep tabs on Molly Martens in any way? I mean, I think to myself she's a danger to other people out there in the world and other kids and all of that, but how much do you engage with that? Do you know what she's up to? Do you?
- [60:52]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I do believe she's a danger in the world. And that's the ultimate travesty of justice, is that we can't protect people from Molly Martens. And she's out there. And I hope perhaps the documentary and my brother Jason and Sarah's book A Time for Truth, is, you know, will help people understand if they ever come in contact. However, I don't. And, you know, genuinely, we have had Molly Martins and our family occupy so much of our life and time that I've left that go a long time ago because I wouldn't want to hold that types of toxicity inside. And myself and my body. I've been in that place before and it does no good for anybody. So I don't. I do have people sending me who has crossed paths or, you know, who've been in school with her, or people who've actually had really raw and difficult experiences. And people continue to. I mean, recently, you know, we've had people reach out that are having really difficult time. So I think that does happen. But like I said, for me, in our life, we need to move forward in our life as well. And the Martins just don't figure in this life that I'm leading and living or will live in the future.
- [62:07]
Michelle (Interviewer)
No. It's a strange thing to say, but I'm really jealous of your lives, you guys. You just have such a beautiful family and you seem to have a really beautiful life despite these terrible things that have happened to you and your family. You know, I'm jealous of Your family.
- [62:22]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
It's really hard on Michelle. You know, there are times and like initially in the first couple, couple of years for me and my husband, you know, one of probably, if I had to say, the biggest sacrifices was not to speak negatively about the Martins.
- [62:38]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [62:39]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Because Jack and Sarah, I think everyone will like or we certainly acknowledge loved, had been grieving the loss of their father, but they also had a relationship. Molly had a parental role in their lives, however way she normalized the abuse. But we acknowledged that in how much we love Jack and Sarah. And we, we didn't, we stayed silent.
- [63:03]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
I think that's one of the reasons, as I got older, why I really trusted Tracey and David, because I think the hardest thing they could have done was not say anything negative or not push their opinions or push the truth, you know, onto me and Jack. And I think it just shows how much they loved us unconditionally, that they cared more about our well being and us having our own opinions than their own thoughts and their own opinions. And I don't know whether I would be able to do that, but I'm really glad that they did.
- [63:37]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
We come into the world on our own love and we leave it on our own. I think it's resilience, you know, like I would be really strong in terms of my values for all four of the kids that, you know, they learn to do things and learn about the world for themselves. You know, we can give them the tools, but it's up to each of us. It's not what happens, it's how you respond to the external factors in your life. And I think that's something that I, myself and my husband felt, I've always felt very strongly about. But in terms of, I don't want people to think that, you know, look, we're sitting here and it's, you know, we are well adjusted, but that was really hard. 1. There was lots of support and nights crying and not knowing what to do or how to respond. And it also took a different level of approach in terms of your health and wellness, you know, down to like what I eat and getting a little bit of exercise, small things. Actually, sometimes it was just a matter of getting out of bed and showering, you know, so there, there is those periods in life when you lose somebody. And I don't mean it has to be this extreme experience that we've had, but certainly. And how you look after yourself, I think is so important because if you don't take care of yourself, you can' look after other people in your life.
- [64:57]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Your emotional stability and maturity stands in such stark contrast to Molly's emotional immaturity. And Jason's does as well. Even down to Jason's, I think, probably greatest and wisest act of love for you kids in ensuring that if anything happened to him, you would go to Tracy and David and not allowing Molly to adopt you.
- [65:20]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
And I'm grateful for that every day.
- [65:23]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Oh, it's a miracle, isn't it? It's just the best part of this terrible story, I think.
- [65:29]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [65:30]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Thank you. It's been such a joy spending time with you and remembering Jason. In a weird way, that's the one thing about this document. It does. It's very intimate. You know what? I wanna send a cheerio to David. What a beautiful man. I just loved him every time he popped up. And when I read the story about Molly being rude to him at the wedding, I was furious. And, yeah, what a lovely dude.
- [65:54]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
He's like my absolute, like, rock, you know? And David is like. He switched from, like, to an iPhone from Anakia, like, a year ago, and he's not on Facebook or Twitter, like, WhatsApp. He made a mistake and uploaded a picture onto his profile last week and nearly shut. He wanted to just get rid of WhatsApp. And it's the family group, you know, for us. Yeah. So, like, the kids have been saying, oh, my God, like, there's such a thing on, you know, when. When Davis ain't going into the court, you know, in the car on the documentary, head up, shoulders back, you know.
- [66:31]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Has he gone viral?
- [66:32]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yeah, apparently the kids have been saying it to him, and he's like, no idea.
- [66:37]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
No, he has no idea. I was reading some of the comments to him, and there was one that was like, I would let Dave lynch lead me into battle, no questions asked.
- [66:45]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
Yay.
- [66:46]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Agreed.
- [66:47]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
My daily affirmation, it was really nice to see that, like, people saw how loving David is to us as well. Like, he is our dad.
- [66:57]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Yeah.
- [66:57]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
You know, he's the person that will always make me laugh when I'm about to bawl my eyes out, crying, you know, so it was nice that people actually got to see that side of him, just being a dad and not caring about anything else other than how his kids and his wife is.
- [67:12]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
And I think to finish that, the documentary does show us as we are.
- [67:16]
Sarah Corbett Lynch
Yeah.
- [67:17]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
I also think it shows the Martins as they are.
- [67:25]
Michelle (Interviewer)
Thank you to our guests today, Tracey Corbett lynch and Sarah Corbett Lynch. Tracey's book is called My Brother Jason, and Sarah's book is called A Time for My Father Jason and My Search for Justice and Healing. Both books are available now. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU. Indigenous Australians can contact 13Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org AU.
- [68:12]
Tracey Corbett Lynch
The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.