Australian True Crime: Shortcut – The Inner Worlds of Violent Offenders

Host: Bravecasting | Guest: Pamela Nathan, Forensic Psychologist
Date: January 15, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores the psychological landscapes of violent offenders through the experiences of clinical forensic psychologist Pamela Nathan, author of Pain Bleeds Crime. Nathan shares her insights from decades of treating and assessing Australia's most extreme offenders, including her work within the prison system. The conversation delves deeply into what motivates violent crime, the impact of trauma and neglect, and the struggle to balance empathy with accountability in mental health treatment.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pamela Nathan’s Reluctant Introduction to Forensic Work

• Early reluctance: Nathan never intended to work in forensic psychology, initially resisting placements in forensic settings.
  • Quote:

  “I categorically refused and said no, I definitely didn't want to. … then this job came up and it was the only job just about that was available.” (B, 00:39)

• First impressions of prison work: Nathan describes her first overwhelming encounter at Pentridge Prison.
  • Quote:

  “I remember walking out to the car and thinking, my goodness…I want to go home and have a shower and decontaminate.” (B, 01:20)

• Humanizing offenders: Over time, she was surprised to find herself empathizing with offenders and understanding them as complex, damaged individuals, not monsters.
  • Notable moment:

  “They are human. I remember being so shocked by that comment. And yet that can happen… the humanization of people and the understanding of their circumstances.” (B, 01:45)

2. The Challenge and Weight of Responsibility

• Unexpected violence by a former client: Nathan recounts a case where a former client, whom she no longer saw as high-risk, committed a violent assault.
  • Quote:

  “He was not somebody I was watching by that stage. I felt totally lulled by him. And again, we would refer to that now as a sort of simulation… other things were being harbored.” (B, 04:23)

• Professional guilt and fear of oversight:
  • Memorable admission:

  “That whole week…every day just watching it and I really did feel like I had blood on my hands. And I think that's the feeling it can create.” (B, 05:53)

• Systemic pressures and public scrutiny:
  • Discusses how high-profile cases and public attitudes can make the work emotionally perilous.
  • Host reflection:

  “Why bother? Why do this job when you work so hard… and then you could be dragged through a process later on…” (A, 06:55)

3. Trauma, Childhood and the Road to Violence

• Shared patterns among notorious criminals: Discussion of well-known Australian offenders like Neddy Smith and Chopper Read, noting common backgrounds of neglect and abuse.

  • Host observation:

  “They were sexually assaulted and abused at the boy's home and… made the decision to never be vulnerable again and became a very violent offender.” (A, 07:47)

• Identification with the aggressor:

  • Nathan explains how early abuse can lead offenders to seek control and replicate harmful dynamics.
  • Quote:

  “There then becomes an identification with the aggressor. So when they become the aggressor, they don't feel fear…” (B, 08:38)

• Cycle of trauma:

  • Nathan provides a case where a youth, now mute, unknowingly reenacts trauma he had witnessed as a child.
  • Notable moment:

  “…She had actually been violently raped and [her son] had witnessed it and he became mute afterward. … in a way he then reenacted the rape.” (B, 09:43)

4. The Role of Memory, Repetition, and Treatment

• Freud’s theory in practice:
  • Offenders often unconsciously repeat, rather than remember, their trauma.
  • Quote:

  “Freud would talk about that there's repetition versus remembering… people want to avoid remembering and the pain gets buried.” (B, 11:30)

• Call for compassion and early intervention:
  • Nathan argues that delinquency should be seen as a call for help, not just punishment:

  “…Actually they need help. Not just discipline and sort of punishment, but also understanding and a place to talk…” (B, 12:10)

5. Public Fatigue and the Limits of Empathy

• Common rebuttal:
  • Many say, “Lots of people have terrible childhoods and they don’t grow up to murder.”
  • Nathan’s response:

  “Every time there go I, by the grace of God, because I would think if I was plunged into those situations… what hope is there for you?” (B, 12:37)

• The transformative power of understanding:
  • Reflecting on her experience with a youth offender:

  “If the offender can understand, they're far less likely to go out and act again… I think with this youth who committed rape, he'll never rape again.” (B, 13:27)

6. The Danger of Oversimplification

• Every case is unique:
  • Nathan urges not to reduce offenders to their trauma but to investigate their full internal world.
  • Quote:

  “…Who is this person? What is the internal crime scene? What has happened to them? … That's just descriptive. Now what? Where's the rest of it? Let's go deeper.” (B, 13:58)

Memorable Quotes with Timestamps

• "I really did feel like I had blood on my hands. And I think that's the feeling it can create."
  – Pamela Nathan (05:53)

• "There then becomes an identification with the aggressor… there is a sense of trying to regain a sense of control and omnipotence."
  – Pamela Nathan (08:38)

• "Every time there go I, by the grace of God… what hope is there for you?"
  – Pamela Nathan (12:37)

• "Who is this person? What is the internal crime scene? … Let's go deeper."
  – Pamela Nathan (13:58)

Important Timestamps

• 00:39 — Pamela Nathan describes her unlikely start in forensic settings.
• 01:45 — Realization that offenders are more human than “monsters.”
• 04:23 — Case of a former client’s unexpected violent act and the psychologist’s feelings afterward.
• 08:38 — Mechanisms behind offenders' violence: identification with the aggressor.
• 09:43 — Case study of childhood trauma leading to reenactment.
• 12:37 — Counterargument to public skepticism about the trauma/crime connection.
• 13:58 — The importance of viewing each offender as a unique individual.

Summary Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, introspective, and at times deeply personal. Nathan does not shy from expressing both her empathy and her ethical concerns, and the host approaches sensitive subjects respectfully but directly. The episode successfully humanizes both therapist and offender without excusing violence, emphasizing the value of understanding, early intervention, and nuanced care for profoundly damaged individuals.

For Further Reading

• Pamela Nathan’s book: Pain Bleeds Crime (Available via link in show notes)

This summary is intended for those seeking a thoughtful overview of the complexities explored in the episode, emphasizing psychological depth and the difficulties of treating violent offenders in the Australian context.