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The following podcast contains accounts of child sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. Pamela Nathan is a forensic psychologist and she's spent decades treating and assessing Australia's most extreme offenders. She's written a book called Pain Bleeds Crime, in which she outlines case studies of 23 patients she worked with in the prison system. She joins us on Australian True Crime to talk about it. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation.
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I had just graduated and, you know, I needed a job and this. During my training, I had been encouraged to work in a forensic facility and I'd been working in other public hospitals and I categorically refused and said no, I definitely didn't want to. I was very happy where I was. And so. And then this job came up and was the only job just about that was available. And so I went for the interview and at that time it was just to be in the community. During the interview, it became clear that it wasn't going to be in the community, it was going to be in Pentridge.
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A
That's quite a disclosure in the interview.
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So I remember sitting there and again, there was another thud, thinking, oh, gosh, I bet you I get this job. I definitely don't want it. And yeah, I did get to. I mean, there are only two applicants at the time, so I certainly didn't go into it wanting it. And then I did a tour of Pentridge, which I remember, you know, I describe in the book it was a very hot day and I remember walking out to the car and thinking, my goodness, you know, I just, I cannot do this job. Like, I want to go home and have a shower and decontaminate. And in the end, I have to say that I became interested during the work. And then one began to see that they weren't monsters, but they really became humanized. And I think at that point things changed. I remember saying to a very attractive female psychologist at the outset, how can you work with these pediaphiles? Isn't it so difficult? And I remember her saying, well, actually, you can actually like them. They are human. I remember being so shocked by that comment. And yet that can happen. Not necessarily liking, but the humanization of people and the understanding of their circumstances. And I had grown up in a very privileged situation, so for me to come into that environment was, you know, very new and challenging and daunting.
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A
And because in the community facility, I think this was oftentimes offenders who'd been released from prison, is that correct?
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B
Most of them are there sort of involuntarily. They have to fulfil parole conditions or community orders, which can create resentment, frustration, you know, so they can. Or life's been difficult for them, often on the outside. So they can come in with all sorts of emotional baggage. And you can be in the firing line for that as well.
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A
A former client of yours went on to commit a violent crime. I'm thinking specifically of the man who assaulted men in a sauna.
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B
Right.
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Tell us about that, about having a client. And there's no suggestion that you're responsible in any way, but certainly there must be a feeling of, could I have prevented it? Did I miss something?
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Is that that was a very challenging time, and it often catches you unawares. So, you know, you're often tracking somebody El. Being hypervigilant about somebody else's high risk. And so I think I'm not, certainly not the only one. People would say it could happen out of left field. And in a way, this one did, because not initially. Initially he was up for manslaughter. And I always felt like it was potentially murder. And so I was watching him from the day he was admitted, and I took the case on, and I would take him to every clinical meeting because I was worried about his risk. And then, you know, I started to see him over a couple of years and, you know, he became sort of sick and more disabled. And, you know, the last time he sort of shuffled in, and it's just before the attack, and, you know, he was asking for leave to go interstate, and he was working with a correctional officer about this. And at this point, you know, if you'd asked me, he was not somebody I was watching by that stage. I felt totally lulled by him. And again, we would refer to that now as a sort of simulation, that there was a sort of deliberate compliance, but really other things were being harbored. And so I think in that. I think it was almost a couple of days after I'd seen him, which had been a delay because I hadn't seen him quite as regularly. And that's where I think I felt some responsibility. And then I got a phone call during the week, and it was from the secretary, and she said, you know, there's been this assault, and haven't you heard about it? So suddenly I tuned in, and then the parole officer rang, and then I realized it was my client and from the community facility. And that's quite a. You know, it certainly creates trepidation and sense of responsibility. I think two people had been seriously or three people are involved and one man was seriously injured, another injured, and there was a question of life and death for one man. And I remember in that week, that whole week, you know, every day just watching it and I really did feel like I had blood on my hands. And I think that's the feeling it can create. And I had external supervision also at the time. And there were questions slightly raised about the intervals of time I'd been seeing this person. And then of course, you know, there's issues for the facility. So then. And of course they're very concerned about the welfare of the psychologist. But also for, you know, what, what might have transpired that could have protected or prevented this crime. As it happens, the man survived but.
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A
With injuries and had he not, there could well have been a big inquest. I'm thinking about, for example, the Gargasoulis case when the man who drove down Bourke street mall and killed a lot of people. And in the aftermath there were lots of conversations about his. What was known about him as an offender, what was known about his psychological state and all that. So I mean that it's got the potential for you to. There's a lot of people who sort of say to you why, why bother? Why do this job when you work so hard, you give so much of it of yourself to people and then you could be dragged through a process later on with people accusing you of not doing enough or.
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B
I mean I was certainly wasn't, you know, within the institution. I wasn't accused. But one can't help feel, feeling the responsibility. But yes, it is very disconcerting when it happens and you think you're being vigilant and then, you know, happen. Yeah.
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A
You're making me think of those. Some of the hardest men in the history of Australian crime. The famous guys, the Neddy Smiths, the Chopper Reeds, those guys all have very similar backgrounds in terms of neglect at home, ending up in boys homes and sexual assault. And I've read a report, obviously it's secondhand cause I never met Neddy Smith, but that he was a hard man in Sydney gang circus and that he was sexually assaulted and abused at the boy's home and that he made the decision to never be vulnerable again. Correct. And became a very violent offender.
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Yeah.
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I'm just tapping into something that you talk about a lot in the book that eventually it seems like in your sessions you realise, okay, this is the way this person was treated by their Mother. So now they want to be in the powerful position.
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Yes, look, exactly. You know, there then becomes an identification with the aggressor. So then when they become the aggressor, they don't feel the feelings of fear that's sort of instilled into the victim. And there is a sense of trying to regain a sense of control and omnipotence and to certainly avoid those feelings of fear. And I think, think for men who've been sexually abused, I certainly came across this with, working with men who'd been charged with paedophilia, that for them to admit to a sexual abuse, particularly if it was maternal, was extremely painful and difficult and that obviously had long lasting effects. But I think really, you know, what you're referring to is that, yes, most of these people, including a lot of absent fathers in this cohort, would reenact earlier trauma that hadn't been remembered, but they were sort of repeating repeatedly in different actions like rape or violent thoughts or so on. And I think one of the cases that I mentioned, for example, in the book was where a young youth had been charged with rape, which he at the time denied. And he had become mute when he was young, but it wasn't clear why from talking to him. And he had moved to England and moved from England to Australia. And when I was trying to get a handle on the case, you know, I brought the mother in to talk to and it had emerged in that session with this young offender and the mother that she had actually been violently raped and he'd witnessed it and he became mute afterwards. Now, the youth never recalled that and she had never talked about it, but in a way he then reenacted the rape and it was a very powerful, you know, aha, moments session also, because we don't.
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We're still coming to terms with how much children absorb. I'm just thinking she probably felt relieved in thinking that he'd forgotten that that happened. He'd forgotten that he saw that as he grew older. Yes. As a mum, you would. You would think, good, I don't want you to remember that.
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Absolutely, yeah. Yep. Very important point. Yeah. But he was completely oblivious consciously to what had transpired. So, yes, there's, you know, neglect and all sorts of poverty, abuse, absent fathers, alcoholism, prostitution, a lot of physical violence that people have endured.
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So is it a constant sort of attempt to resolve those things? You know, feeling victimised? Let's say down deep, if I victimize someone else, it might resolve that feeling in me, might finish?
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Yeah, I think that's a Good question. It's certainly not conscious. And you know, Freud would talk about that there's repetition versus remembering. So, you know, I think people want to avoid remembering and the pain gets buried. And of course, it's often not talked about or recognized, so it's not metabolized. And I think that's another purpose of the book is to say, you know, you need to be alert to these. When children appear to be delinquent or obviously going into gangs, but when they're younger, hyperactivity disorders, psychopathic behavior from toxic home environments that actually they need help. Not just discipline and sort of punishment, but also understanding and a place to talk and to be able to talk.
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There are many people in the community, you will know better than anyone who say, I'm sick of hearing about offenders childhoods. I don't care. They'll say, lots of people have terrible childhoods and they don't grow up to murder people.
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B
Yep. So I think as a counterpoint to that, I just. I mean, I used to say, really, every time there go I, by the grace of God, because I would think if I was plunged into those situations, honestly, when I. One, you'd have so much less containment, you'd be much more impulsive. You know, you've been abandoned, neglected, like, what hope is there for you? So on. If you can talk and try to understand, and if the offender can understand, they're far less likely to go out and act again. They're not just seen as this buildup of, you know, I'm a bad person, I'm monstering, I'm, I'm, you know, that's my life. Then if there's understanding, you know, like, I think with this youth who committed rape, he'll never rape again. I'm quite sure that he won't rape again because he had such an understanding of what had happened to his mother and what he had done in the enactment. So I think it's not, of course, a blueprint, but it could help.
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We culturally lump offenders together. We'll say, oh, that'll be a shit childhood. Or he was probably, you know, molested as a kid and that's why he's molesting kids. Obviously, from your perspective, every individual is much more complicated than that. Yeah.
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And I think that's a really important point. So what you in a way have to try, you sort of investigate is, you know, who is this person? What is the internal crime scene? What has happened to them? How like you might have, two people have been sexually abused, but from very different circumstances, who have responded very differently to what's happened, who have sustained original trauma in different ways, you know, where there's different unconscious relations, conflicts and so on. So that's where I think the work also becomes. You know, it's important to be able to see who is the individual behind the crime and not just to lump everybody into categories. And that can be a danger in the work. As I say, people can come and say, oh, they've been sexually abused. This and this. Yeah, but that's just descriptive. Now what? Where's the rest of it? So, I mean, it's a flag. But then you say, well, what's underneath all of that? Let's go deeper.
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Thank you to our guest today, Pamela Nathan. Pamela's book Pain Bleeds Crime is available now and there's a link in the show Notes to this episode to help you get your copy. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800Respect.orgau. Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.orgau.
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The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.