Strange Investigations with Charlie Bezzina

Summary

Australian True Crime – "Strange Investigations with Charlie Bezzina" (Feb 15, 2026)

Episode Overview

This episode of Australian True Crime features veteran detective Charlie Bezzina alongside host Michelle Laurie. Together, they delve into some of the most unusual and perplexing investigations of Charlie’s career in Victoria Police, emphasizing the unpredictable nature of crime scene work in Australian suburbs and the challenges of interpreting evidence that might not align with initial impressions. The conversation takes listeners deep into the practical and emotional realities of homicide investigation—discussing everything from evolving forensic technology to the mental health struggles of police officers.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Crime Scene Process & Teamwork

• Structured Approach: Charlie outlines the routine procedures at crime scenes and post-mortems: systematic photography, collecting evidence (“collect it and we can always throw it away”), and reliance on a diverse team (forensics, pathologists, ballistics, etc.) ([01:19]–[02:54]).
• Minimal Contamination: Emphasizes minimizing personnel at scenes—normally six to eight specialists—to avoid contamination and ensure all evidence is collected ([02:15]–[02:54]).
• Life Goes On: Humanizes investigation, noting realities like retrieving personal items for families and the challenges when returning a processed scene ([02:56]–[03:51]).

“You work under the adage that once you've gone to the crime scene and you leave, you can't go back.” — Charlie Bezzina [02:56]

---

2. Forensics: Past, Present & Future

• Evidence Preservation Evolution: Importance of photography and video as the only records once a scene is released, and recognizing how seemingly innocuous items can be crucial at trial ([04:04]–[04:36]).
• Modern Technology: Discussion of AI, 3D imaging, and virtual goggles for juries, which can immerse them more fully in a scene, reducing monotony and boosting understanding ([04:36]–[06:17]).

“This 3D imaging, just hone in on that coffee cup... take the whole caption. It was magic.” — Charlie Bezzina [04:58]

---

3. The Human Element: Stress, Judgment Calls, and Training

• Pressure on Investigators: Charlie describes the pressure of noticing every detail and the “fatal flaw” in cutting training for police—especially exposure to autopsies ([03:51]–[11:19]).
• Critical Early Decisions: Uniformed officers are often relied upon to identify cause of death, but misuse or lack of experience can create failures in suicide or homicide assessments ([06:49]–[11:19]).
• Gaps in Training: Recent policing trends allow officers to “opt in” for mortuary experience or skip it entirely, leading to unnecessary escalation and poor investigation outcomes ([09:07]–[11:19]).

“It's the only unnatural death not done by a detective.” — Charlie Bezzina on suicides [06:58]

---

4. Respect for the Deceased

• Maintaining Dignity: Importance of referring to victims by name, treating bodies respectfully, and maintaining empathy to counter the risk of emotional detachment ([14:09]–[15:15]).
• Vulnerability of the Deceased: Discussion of historical instances where undertakers took advantage, underlining the need for respect and vigilance ([13:10]–[14:09]).

“You lose your identity once you die... but by naming, they're a person. Doesn't diminish the fact that they were living, walking, human being and they deserve respect.” — Charlie Bezzina [14:16]

---

5. Crime and Community: Sex Offender Registries & Neighbourhood Safety

• Registry Debate: Discusses Queensland’s public registry for sex offenders, weighing victim family advocacy against risks of vigilante attacks and ineffective deterrence seen in the US ([15:29]–[16:47]).
• Neighborhood Awareness: Charlie favors public knowledge and laments the erosion of community policing roles ([16:06]–[16:47]).

---

6. Strange Cases

Case 1: The Elderly Woman with Facial Fractures ([22:03]–[31:04])

• Initial Suspicion: Found deceased, face covered and severely fractured, splayed legs, missing underwear—initially seeming like a sexual homicide ([22:03]–[23:17]).
• Investigation: Gathering background—known as a prolific climber and eccentric. No forced entry; evidence of a fall onto a concrete surface causing symmetrical fractures ([26:28]–[27:36]).
• Forensic Insights: Entomologist timed maggot gestation; found buried house keys, reasoning she hid the keys herself ([29:46]–[30:07]).
• Final Determination: Despite sinister staging, concluded a tragic accident—died after a fall trying to re-enter her property. Coroner agreed on misadventure ([31:05]).

“That was my sticking point—I was happy with the rest... but the killer may have put her on the blind side.” — Charlie Bezzina [28:41]

---

Case 2: The ‘Bound’ Woman in the Country Town ([31:05]–[35:51])

• Initial Scene: Young woman found naked, loosely bound with a phone cord, room in disarray, history of family violence ([31:05]–[33:44]).
• Findings: Pathologist observed only leg bruises; no signs of sexual assault or forced entry. History of substance abuse—Serapax, Jim Beam ([34:47]).
• Explanation: Bruises likely incidental; death determined as overdose. Cord entanglement accidental as she thrashed post-ingestion ([34:54]–[35:51]).

“She was thrashing around... able to entangle herself in that phone cord. But it served no purpose, so it didn’t make sense that an offender would do that.” — Charlie Bezzina [34:54]

---

Case 3: Ingenious Suicide in a Locked Cupboard ([37:15]–[42:24])

• Discovery: Elderly man missing, found dead in a locked outdoor cupboard, ankles and hands tied, plastic bag over head with an LPG bottle ([37:15]–[41:48]).
• Complex Scene: Padlock and slide bolt secured from outside. Initial suspicion of homicide.
• Analysis: Realized victim engineered own death using string to slide bolt after entry, avoiding chance of changing mind—a highly intelligent, planned suicide. Left a note citing grief for his wife ([41:48]–[42:24]).

“A lot of suicides... they want to be in a position that they don’t want to change their mind and they’re very tentative about them.” — Charlie Bezzina [39:02]

---

7. Broader Reflections on Policing and Community

• Changing Police Recruitment and Careers: Lowering standards and glamorizing police life leads to high attrition and disillusionment ([11:29]–[12:41]).
• Dedication Beyond the Force: Even after retirement, Charlie remains involved as a PI and victim advocate, asserting his ongoing passion for investigation and service ([36:33]–[37:14]).

“You never retire. And that’s why I became a private investigator... what do I know to do best?” — Charlie Bezzina [36:33]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Evidence and Trials:
  “My adage always has been, well, collect it and we can always throw it away.” — Charlie Bezzina [04:04]

• On Jurors and Modern Evidence:
  “Anything dynamic like that seems like it would be a great idea. The 3D imagery.” — Michelle Laurie [06:08]

• On Thinking Like a Cop:
  “Always expect the unexpected.” — Charlie Bezzina [21:02]

• On the Limitations of Forensics:
  “None of this other crap about, oh, look, I died between 11 and 12 o’clock. Doesn’t work that way, as you’d know.” — Charlie Bezzina [23:17]

• On Keeping Perspective:
  “Even things like taking out warrants, you know, I built up reputation up to about 35 years.” — Charlie Bezzina [21:02]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:19] – Charlie discusses standard crime scene and postmortem processes
• [04:36] – Michelle and Charlie discuss advances in crime scene visualization
• [09:07] – Training gaps and issues with new police recruits
• [14:09] – Respect and dignity for the deceased
• [16:06] – Discussion of the sex offender registry debate
• [22:03] – Elderly woman strange death case
• [31:05] – Country town overdose mistaken for homicide
• [37:15] – Ingenious suicide concealed as murder
• [42:24] – Closing remarks

---

Tone and Style

The conversation is brisk, candid, and grounded in years of experience. Charlie’s no-nonsense style is balanced by Michelle’s curiosity and empathetic approach, inviting listeners behind the police tape for a raw look at what real detectives face—mystery, grief, doubt, and the perpetual challenge of separating truth from surface impressions.

---

For anyone interested in the intricacies of crime scene investigation, the limits of forensic certainty, and the strange realities just beneath the surface of suburban Australia, this is an episode that brings both insight and respect for those who do this essential—if difficult—work.

Transcript

[Charlie Bazina]

Foreign.

[Michelle Laurie]

This is Australian True Crime with Michelle Laurie. And as promised, we are back today with the legendary Charlie Bazina. But this time you can watch the interview in full living colour if you want by checking out the Australian True Crime YouTube channel. There is of course, a link in the show notes. Charlie is here to talk about some of the stranger and more unpredictable investigations he was part of the during his decades as a detective with Victoria Police. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung, People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

[VRBoCare Representative]

Day or night. VRBoCare is here 247 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And, hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.

[Charlie Bazina]

Crime scenes have a set process you follow, and so do postmortems. You know, you go there and it's okay, you look at the body, you photograph it, do that, then you strip it, then you wash it down and do stuff and away you go. And then ultimately. And then it works so well because then you gotta keep saying, well, I'm the investigator, they're the tools that help me whilst I'm the face of the investigations, the team behind me from pathologists, my team members and the like. So the pathologist said, well, anything else you want to cover off? Oh, can you do the, you know, can you just swab, let's say it might be a rape or something, or can you just swab here and can you swab there for any DNA and something that they may overlook and stuff like that? So the more eyes on it, the better.

[Michelle Laurie]

How many people are at the crime scene? Say remains have been. A body's been found and it's a violent attack. You've got cause. I know that the police have their forensics team as well. So there's the mortuary guys, the pathologists.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah. So you start off with a crime scene examiner and then a photographer. In my day, photographer, video operator. And then if it's a shooting, you got the ballistics guy with you. And if it's a stabbing as such, or if not with. And even if the blood splatter, you got a biologist with you for blood splatter interpretation, you've Got a pathologist with you. If they see the body in situ and then your team members, not we all go in there and then you sit back, wait for it to be processed. And you want to keep it to the minimum of going to a crime scene, but other than that, you might have six or eight at any given time with those resources so they can take it all up there. So away you go.

[Michelle Laurie]

And then uniform out the front, keeping everyone.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So and then, you know, unlike the underworld murders, then you might have issues with the violent family members coming in and you're dealing with them. And so it becomes a pretty dynamic and fluid because you work under the adage that once you've gone to the crime scene and you leave, you can't go back. Even if you find some evidence afterwards, it's diminished because they say, well, hang on, why didn't you find that in the first place? Could have been put after you left. So you gotta make sure that you're happy with it. And you might process. And unlike America, you see the American movies, they keep the crime scene till the court case. But we rehabilitate crime scenes and give it back to the family or we might have a family that we've disposed out of there because of us processing it. Oh, I've got the baby. Can you go and just get me some nappies? So you're doing that. Life goes on. You don't say, well, no, you're not. Go and buy something. You say, well, what do I need? I've got no clothes, you just got me out of there.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so it seems to me incredibly stressful. I guess I'm probably not a detail oriented person. Cause I think, oh my God, the pressure of making sure you notice everything you need to notice. You get every photo, you get everything.

[Charlie Bazina]

Exactly. And then my adage always has been, and then of saying, well, collect it and we can always throw it away. Now he's going back. Because your only recourse then is your photographs or your video, the crime scene. And say, well, hang on, because something innocuous as a glass that was there might become quite important at the trial. And you say, right, so you process that glass, what was in the liquid, what was that? Was there any fingerprints? Was DNA, was there any lipstick on it? Was this? What does that tell us? And how many people and what glasses were there, what's been cooked and all this other stuff. So you open it. And that comes from experience.

[Michelle Laurie]

I mean, it only seems recently, I suppose, a couple of decades ago that crime scene photos were the only things available, and they were in black and white. And now I went to a forensics seminar thing a couple of years ago, and they were talking about bringing in AI, you know, goggles to be able to show the jury the crime scene. What do you think about that?

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, excellent. Because we had it and I don't know why they haven't do it. The major collision have it just before me leaving. We were able to get a. As a prototype, put a tripod on there, and this thing would spin around and take 3D images of everything. And then they could show that to the jury and say, okay, rather than take a video, this 3D imaging, go just hone in on that coffee cup. And they can zoom out. So what about that planned over there? Okay, let's zoom in on that. It takes the whole caption. It was magic.

[Michelle Laurie]

That is magic.

[Charlie Bazina]

I don't know whether they still do it or not, but yeah, you gotta record as best you can. And apart from having viewings, you take juries to certain viewings, not all the time. You take a jury to a viewing, but to see it in actual situ, have seen the body there. And that's what they've done. And you're seeing it as I saw it as an investigator. Yeah. Valuable tools because juries like to play detectives and they can. Oh, yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I'm just thinking about how boring a lot of the evidence is at trial. You know, thinking about the mushroom murder trial, the high country. In both cases, there's days of like sort of teaching us how phone ping towers.

[Charlie Bazina]

That's right, yeah. And getting your head around that. Correct.

[Michelle Laurie]

So I know a juror fell asleep during the mushroom lady trial at one point. So anything dynamic like that seems like it would be a great idea. The 3D imagery.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, that's right. And that's what they love. And that's where, okay, black and white was to save the feelings of juries. But then they said, well, no, it's gotta be black colour. They have to see it as is. That's what it's all about. You know, they make the apology and say, look, you are gonna be confronted with actual mortuary photographs. People prepare themselves and you can see them grimace and they see the video, they're going like that. But that's what it's all about. You know, we're not a bloody law of morals or saving feelings, you know, so you've got to see it. In Aurora, we've seen it.

[Michelle Laurie]

So who normally is it uniform who get to a scene and decide this is a homicide or this is a suicide or this is an accident.

[Charlie Bazina]

So they go to a scene and it's, oh, we've got a person who's deceased. They don't know if they're going through natural causes, a suicide or a murder. So they go there and they go, oh, this is pretty sus. I'm not happy with that. They call in the local detectives. So local detectives come in, they make the call and they come in and say, yep, it's a drug overdose or it's a suicide. If it's a suicide, that's where it stops. They give it back to the uniform branch, which I'm very critical about, and the uniform branch are left with it and they want to get rid of it as soon as they can. They're not investigators. It's the only unnatural death not done by a detective. So. Or they say, yep, definitely this is a shooting. From their experience, from their detective training school. Yep, let's call in the rape squad, let's call in homicide squad. Then we come in, we make an assessment and then we either then do the postmortem, go that way, they give it back to the local detectives and say, no, it's a murder, suicide or whatever, do it that way. So that's a process as you go through and a lot of times you're running the job at home, you know, I'll get caught out and I'll say, mate, it doesn't sound, you know, like it's going to be a murder to me. Do your job, start doing a door knocks and let me know or someone's going to die. You know, this guy's going to. Who told you that? Oh, the ambos. Well, the ambos aren't doctors. Let him go to the hospital. If a surgeon then says he's not going to survive, then call me. Because I'm then balancing my resources. I'm servicing the state of Victoria with one team of detectives. So while I'm going out two or three in the morning to a half baked job, I think you had a fair ninkum job. So you're mindful of that. You're running a job from home at 2 in the morning, saying no. Sounds like a drug overdose to me. Go through the process or close the scene down, photograph it. Let's organise a post mortem, let's say for sids or something like that. Let's organise a post mortem in the morning. We've lost nothing. You preserved the scene, you photographed it, have a guard there, let's do the post I booked a post mortem for 9 o'. Clock. I'm then liaison with the coroner's court. I've logged the body in. When can the pathologist come? I organise a photographer. Okay, let's do that. As I'll be one example and say, yep, it's a cerebral haemorrhage. Okay, fantastic. But we've overseen it.

[Michelle Laurie]

Another detective was telling me he was critical of the change at the training college, police in police training, where people could. Had to opt into the class where they go to the mortuary and see an autopsy.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, I thought it was completely knocked out.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, there you go. Last I knew they could opt into it, but maybe they don't even do it anymore.

[Charlie Bazina]

Well, and that's what these psychologists said. The psychologists said, oh, well, what's to be gained by them seeing you? They're. Well, hang on, in their normal life as a banker or mechanic, they've never seen a body and they're gonna see bodies.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, and also this person, I can't remember who it was. Now this detective said to me, so he had just one example. He goes, you know, I've been called out to jobs that are clear suicides because the young uniform guys had never seen a body before, never seen a death scene before, panicked and called us for everything.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause they just see a body and they might see a bit of blood or something, they go, hey. And then they get rid of it straight away. Then all of a sudden they end up with it, it's a suicide. And. And these poor kids will say they want to get rid of it. So they cut corners and the reviews that I've done for families, for suicides and as you know, with suicide, my daughter wouldn't have killed herself. It's a murder. And then they get the inquest brief, the coroner's brief, and it's full of holes because the uniform branch haven't followed every trail down there, left these gaping holes. And they come to me and say, well, what about this? What about the alibi for the husband? What about this? I had one with suicide. She had a lover, married man with two or three kids. He owed her money. The husband was an estranged, violent husband. He was never alibi. The lover was never alibi'd, no forced entry. And it went on from there. And the copper stuffed it up. She had a bag over her head. Then they found, you know, bottle of chloroform in the house and stuff like that and even the parents were. Then I did a covering report on it. Reviewing and all the holes in it, it went to John Kane, the state coroner. He referred it to the homicide squad and I said look, gut feeling to the family, look it's a suicide but you've got to camp for all these holes and we can't go back. So I've said that to Shane Pattenman who's in there. He said Shane, it's not appropriate that a uniform branch. It's an unnatural death. You gotta tell the family.

[Michelle Laurie]

It seems like a fatal flaw, doesn't it to be cutting back on the training in the with regard to dealing with dead bodies and then giving that responsibility to young constables.

[Charlie Bazina]

Let's wait and see. In years to come now they've lowered the standard to the entrance for the police. The dramas we're gonna have with the police, they're not getting vetted that well. They're gonna put em out. It's an accelerated training process and then they'll just fall off the other end. There'll be armed robberies and there's a number of coppers being charged for this but there's gonna be a lot more.

[Michelle Laurie]

And also you would think mental health.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct.

[Michelle Laurie]

That there'll be attrition due to people just not being able to.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, not being able to because they come in and they see all these great marketing. Oh, jumping out of helicopters. I'm going to search and rescue, I want to work the dogs. I'm going to go on the horses. And they get in there and they go okay, we're going to transfer to the mounded branch. I love horses. Maybe five or 10, 20 years because they're not going to move. There's a line waiting and then they get this garage van say well hang on. But that's reality. You'll be on the van for at least 10 years working the div van and then they get disillusioned and they leave so promoted property and just say this is what you're going to be exposed to and you will not get promoted or you can't transfer because no one leaves those squads, Search and rescue, they love diving on the boats and these other ones and take the reality.

[Michelle Laurie]

These people love that job.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct? Yeah, correct. And they're good at it.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

And that's what you need. And that's where apart from when I was in a drug store, sure. They rotated to say it after three years because you're exposed to being corrupted. But how can you be corrupted? At the homicide squad we're the last ones on scene and if you're gonna Take a gold ring off the deceased's body or bracelet. Well, hang on, you're not alone. So it never even occurred to me.

[Michelle Laurie]

That anyone would think that you would. But I suppose that's cause I know so many of you as well, so it would never occur to me that.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, but the allegations are always there.

[Michelle Laurie]

Really.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah. Well, hang on, what happened to Dad's bloody ring or what happened to this? Well, you were at the scene and did you see the ring? And let's go back to the photographs and there's an allegation put in, let's say I. And years ago where I'm not reasonable, not involved me. But we had an undertaker was taking stuff off the body. You know this northern suburbs, they'd do that and they oh, I want to put Dad's ring in there, I want to put that. Or put this crucifix and then up come the lid. They'd done their viewing and this particular family member got a bit sus. She said, oh, I want to see, I want to see dad again. And all these excuses and then finally got on there and he ended up getting charges by the funeral director.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, writing a book about the mortuary, about VIFM and talking to you guys as well, it made me realise how vulnerable we are when we're dead. I know that sounds weird, but more so for the family members, how important it is to know that this deceased is treated with respect, treated gently.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct.

[Michelle Laurie]

Treated like a patient really, in the.

[Charlie Bazina]

Mortuary you've got to be very careful and you lose your identity once you die.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

You're a deceased or the body, not Michelle. Michelle. And I was very mindful of making a point of addressing the deceased by name to the families and say, oh, Dave was this and Dave was this and Dave was that not. But the deceased was this. So you got to be very mindful of. And it gives them dignity and by naming they're a person. In fact, they've stopped breathing. Doesn't diminish the fact that they were living, walking, human being and they deserve the respect. You address someone living in it that way, why not address them? Same similar with the fact they've died to their families.

[Michelle Laurie]

Cause if you stop thinking like that, I guess the next step is, well, he doesn't need that ring where he's going.

[Charlie Bazina]

This was. You gotta keep reminding yourself because they become a product and because you're doing so many as an investigator and that's where you've got to keep your team focused and say, well, hang on a minute and Even with doing the reviews that I've done, I say, well, okay, say to this particular member, we're trying to get this member to do something. Well, is that what you would expect if that was your son or your daughter?

[Michelle Laurie]

I always think that about sex offenders, to be honest. When judges give them six years, you know, and when they've been convicted of rape before and they've raped again, and I always think, okay, well, in six years, can he move into your joint?

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, correct.

[Michelle Laurie]

Your wife and daughters.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah. Or a pedophile. Do you want to move him in your neighbourhood?

[Michelle Laurie]

Yep. That's interesting you bring that up, do you think? So Queensland's passed the law and has the sex offenders registry, the public registry. Right. So you can find out.

[Charlie Bazina]

All right.

[Michelle Laurie]

In your neighborhood.

[Charlie Bazina]

Excellent.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, I remember when they were talking about it, they were lobbying for it. Victims, victims, families, people really, you know, amazing people were lobbying for it. But I remember the other side of the argument was that, well, in the States it's proven ineffective. It's proven that the numbers of assaults haven't come down in the States, that they have it in America. And if anything it's led to some vigilante attacks and some mistaken identity attacks. So you reckon it's a good thing to be able to.

[Charlie Bazina]

Well, I think it is. I think I'd rather know about it than not know about it. And that's where they stopped years ago, you know, the old copper in the neighborhood. And they become, oh, this so and so's moved in, you know, house number seven. I reckon there's shonkies going on. Can you find who lives there? And we used to be able to go, yeah, oh, that's so and so living there and then. But now taboo, you can't do it, you lose your job. You say, but hang on, I'm still doing a service to the community. I'm not gaining anything by it, ah, privacy and this type of stuff. But I'd rather be aware of it because we had one in my neighborhood, house got broken into and fella crawled in through the window and he was a neighbour and he was a sex offender and all this stuff. So you look at closeness of it and that's where. And denya.

[Michelle Laurie]

Oh God. Well, he's the one I'm thinking of when I think of the sentencing and I think, well, okay then have, you know, Denia move next to your place.

[Charlie Bazina]

That's right. But he did move. That's where he lived in the flat where the, the first his victim and stuff like that. So that's where you look. And then we had one years ago where this woman was disemboweled and all this other stuff, this elderly woman and it was a next door neighbor really and I had one where 13 or 15 year old sisters, we go to this house, this Asian lady being basically slaughtered and she was climbing, crashing through the front door and she collapsed at the front door. Long story short, turned out to be the two girls next door who were friendly with her daughter. They knew that the daughter had gone away so they just said, I will burgle the place. Burgled it. And they obviously stood and fought and stabbed the bloody mum to death. So you look closely to her home and that's where. But that's where, unless it's changed with the prisoner program, they put them back out in the community and even us as police, you might say, you got your patch there. Geez, we've got an increase of burglaries in Parsons street and Sunshine. Why is that enormous, a quiet place? And then you find out, well, there's a prisoner that's moved into a government house and he's doing burgers in these patch. So. But we're not allowed to know about it as investigators to say, well, Charlie, look, they moved to these locations. We're not allowed to know that.

[Michelle Laurie]

If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you, you can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800respect.org au or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 11, 14. Let's get into this one. I know you know, as we've discussed, you know, the process is someone finds remains, whatever, and somebody decides, I think this is a homicide, we need to call it homicide squad. So how did this one unroll?

[Charlie Bazina]

Well, it basically works. Your workhorse of any area statewide is your. And everyone knows about the old divi van, go and aim in the divi van, blah, blah, blah. So your div van is manned by two people and they respond to anything. Everything is your first response unit. So they respond, oh, we've got a deceased person, there's been a welfare check done or whatever. This person's elderly person's deceased or this person's deceased. So the police arrive, not knowing what they're going to expect. They get the names of the People, they go in, they then make a determination, say, I don't think this is natural causes. A whole, you know, is it elderly? Was death expected? Was a family there? No. Or there's blood or there's bloody trauma. Okay. They call in the local detectives. Look, can I have the sunshine? CIB come down? Well, CIU now, they come down, the detectives who are more trained criminally, they make an assessment and then they call in the specialist squads. Or they may say, you know what, it's a suicide. Pretty brave call. They might say suicide. When they make the call, it then reverts back to the uniform branch to do it. But once we get called in, we get called in to make an assessment. And that should be done more often than not, I think, because we can then our expertise, that's what we do, we're specialists. And then we look at it and we then say, yes. Or we might say, shut everything down, let's do a post mortem. And then we make an assessment there, then we'll take on with it. Or if it's a murder, suicide or whatever. So because you never take for granted what an offender would do, given the fact an offender's probably had hours within a particular crime scene. The crime scene tells you a story, then the body tells you a story, and then you put that all together with your witness statements, your forensic evidence, and you build up your case from that.

[Michelle Laurie]

I'm always sus when people go, oh, you wouldn't do that. You just wouldn't do that. Who would do that? Nobody would do that. And I think people do some really unexpected things.

[Charlie Bazina]

Unexpected. And never, always expect the unexpected. And I gotta be satisfied, you know, what with different ones and. Cause my name's on it, I've got to stand by it. And reputationally, that's where it sits too. Because I've got a reputation with the coroners, with the defence, barristers, with magistrates, with judges. And if it's a line ball, even things like taking out warrants, you know, I build up reputation up to about 35 years.

[Michelle Laurie]

When you've built up your reputation, you can go to a judge and say, listen, I really. I would love to be able to bug this guy's car.

[Charlie Bazina]

Warrant, search warrant, line ball. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And he's more likely to go, well, Charlie knows what he's doing, you know, it's probably worth it.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct. Because your reputation. So it might be line ball with the affidavit. And because your reputation, the judges and the magistrates say, yep, I know every warrant that Charlie's taken With me has had results, I'm confident on it. And they give us the authority based on your own reputation. You've got evidences there. It's not job for the boys, but. Yeah, so, so, so important.

[Michelle Laurie]

This first case that you wanted to talk about is a fascinating one because on the face of it, and I shouldn't use the word on the face of it, because this elderly lady's face was severely injured.

[Charlie Bazina]

Fractured. Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

So. But it turned, there was a twist. Tell us about it.

[Charlie Bazina]

Well, it was February, height of summer. We get a call. There's a deceased elderly female on the blind side of her house, lying on her back. She's wearing a skirt, her legs are splayed open, there's a towel, a face washer on the face and it's pretty well decomposed. It was maggot infested. I only say that not for shock value, but that becomes part and process of the investigation. So, yeah, very sinister. And we've got a blood trail up the driveway and a shoe, a female shoe on the driveway. We arrive at the scene, we have a look at the crime scene. The we look at, there's a blood trail up the driveway, there's a shoe. There's two wrought iron gates at the end of the driveway. One wrought iron, gates open. We go around to the blind side of the house. Sure enough, as described, there's a female.

[Michelle Laurie]

Was she found by neighbours? How was this?

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, yeah, right. Yep. And the other twist to it, she didn't have any underwear on. So from experience, you do know that as an investigator, that one trait is when. When a female has been assaulted, let's say a rape, or that then leads to a death, or they want to rape a person post mortem, that they don't want to look at the face, they'll put a covering over the face. Here we've got a covering over the face, legs sprayed open, no underwear. Well, you think of the sinister. We then start your investigation. You want to learn as much as you can about the deceased person. Ultimately, woman lived on her own. So we processed the crime scene and part and parcel of processing that crime scene. And as you see in the movies, time of death becomes an issue critical for us. None of this other crap about, oh, look, I died between 11 and 12 o'. Clock. Doesn't work that way, as you'd know. But one way we can do it, we then get an entomologist come in. So when you're talking about earlier about what services, you bring in, ballistics, forensics, biology for Blood splatter and the like. So here we have a body that's infested with maggots. Then you know, as an investigator, that we may be able to get a time span on these maggots being. Or the eggs being laid by the blowfly. So we bring an entomologist in and she collected the maggots from the body. We then start our investigation. We then talk to neighbors, et cetera. She had no relatives, lived on her own. There's no forced entry into the house because of the severe decomposition. You can't look at any bruising or issues. Nothing significant. We got gaping wounds or anything like that. So we don't. We can't remove clothing at the scene. We leave it in situ, we process the crime scene. We then learned that she lived on her own. Bit eccentric, this lady. And we learned that she was a prolific climber. She'd been found on outside garages, in backyards. She would have a shopping trolley. She'd go to house to house at nighttime, pinching pavers, gnomes, shoes, whatever might be in the front yard. So we start building this picture up. So we get the body back to the coroner's court and the pathologist does the post mortem. Pathologist comes back and like any expert, a lot of them have an each way bet. So we come back, he's unable to tell us where she's been sexually assaulted because of the decomposition. He tells us her symmetrical fractures to the face. Now, it would have to need a flat surface to get symmetrical fractures. If you smack someone on the side of the face, you're gonna get a fractured right cheekbone or whatever. But here we have symmetrical fractures on the face, like you got a fry pan, something flat, and hit this woman. So the pathologist said, charlie, it's an accident or it's a murder as an investigator. So he steps away and says, well, that's my finding. They leave an each way bet. Not firm up on that one. Because if it goes one way, they don't get discredited and say, well, I put it down as a homicide. And then Charlie found out it was an accident or whatever.

[Michelle Laurie]

And that's not their job, Right. Their job is to say these are the injuries.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct? That's their job. And my job is to go where the evidence takes me.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

So he come back. So we. Okay, has he been assaulted? So we start building up this picture within. Prolific climber, lived on her own. So doing the investigation, look at the broader crime scene. We then learned that she used to tie up her wrought Iron gates with these toweling similar to what's on her face. And a lot of times you can't explain a lot of things. So looking at the crime scene, at the back of the. Behind the gate, along the fence, you got the cross piece of timber. And I looked at it and it looked like it was all worn down. Next door was a block of flats with a concrete car park. So we then surmised that it's possible that we'd learn that she's a climber, that she's climbed over the back fence, ties up why she tied the gate up behind the gate, not in front of the gate, and then climbed the fence. So we surmise that she's climbed the fence, she's fallen and her face is smashed onto the concrete, like flat.

[Michelle Laurie]

Like that.

[Charlie Bazina]

Flat on that. And that accounts for. Exactly. So she's got that flat, which gave us symmetrical fractures. So symmetrical fractures are unusual.

[Michelle Laurie]

But again, a classic example of thinking, who would do that? I don't know. She did.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct.

[Michelle Laurie]

We don't know why.

[Charlie Bazina]

Correct.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

So. And then we then start putting things together and I can't physician say, how can you prove that? Well, I can prove it, not prove it, but I can show it through my investigation, through my experience, and I can draw a conclusion. And then there might be up to someone else to look at it based on my evidence. So I then surmise that she's fallen at the top of the fence, she's there. Then made her way down the driveway of the other side, stepped over the small fence in the driveway, loses a shoe because the other shoe's on her foot, she's bleeding from the nose or the mouth or whatever, and she's making her way back up through the wrought iron gate, undoes her wrought iron gate. My biggest concern was that it had the traits of a killer, because why is she on the blind side of the house? Scenario may well be the killer has put on the blind side of the house so the body's not discovered. That was my own sticking point. I was happy with the rest of the stuff, the scenario that I put together, based on the circumstances I was confronted with.

[Michelle Laurie]

But, yeah, if she's hurt herself, how is she? Why did she take herself to the blind side of the house?

[Charlie Bazina]

Like, that's right. It doesn't make sense. Doesn't make sense. So ultimately, that was my sticking point, as luck had it. And a lot of times you do get luck in an investigation or fate. The pathologist had to go back there and get a temperature reading because that Would then work out the gestation of the maggots coming from the egg to the. And that would have said, okay, it's five hours to gestation. The maggots are at this particular level of gestation. And that would narrow down the time of death for me. And then ultimately then focus about if I ever got an offender down the track. So the entomologist goes there. She's in the process of burying her thermometer. So she gets her reading. What does she find? She finds house keys that are buried. So. Yep, house keys fit the house. Why would an offender bury house keys? The skirt's got no pockets. Her skirt's got no pockets. She was eccentric enough, as we believe, and again build a scenario that she would go out on her nightly troop. She would then tie up the gate, climb over the fence, get a trolley and away she'd go. She would have then buried her house keys on the blind side of the house. She had lawn at the back. You find these, like hiding your own key at home.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

Where you think about, we're not going to hide the key, but the crook won't find it. But in her mind, I'll bury it there. So that ticked off. Once that was done, I said, you know what? I was more than happy the circumstances. I found where the evidence took me. I could account of her being on the blind side of the house. I could account for the symmetrical fractures. There was no other injuries or broken bones or anything at all. Just on the face. The flannelette that she's either got that off the. Off the royal iron gates as she's bleeding as you would holding the flannelet to her face. Either stop the nose bleeding or whatever.

[Michelle Laurie]

Even you know, you've lost a shoe. You think, oh, come back and get that. I just.

[Charlie Bazina]

That's right.

[Michelle Laurie]

Later, she won't go get inside.

[Charlie Bazina]

But I think then she succumbed to her injury. She lay there.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

And being eccentric. Okay.

[Michelle Laurie]

So she went around there to get the keys.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah. Get the keys. And then succumbed to injuries. And in fact. Okay, she didn't wear underwear. Well, that's not highly unusual.

[Michelle Laurie]

It's not illegal.

[Charlie Bazina]

Exactly. So I went, put an inquest brief in there because I'm not gonna make an accident to a homicide. I've got enough homicides to deal with.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlie Bazina]

I don't wanna make one and say, well, I'll leave for the coroner to work out. The buck stops with me as a team leader. So I had to make the decision that it was a. An accident. But I maintained it. I Didn't push it off to another, to uniform branch. I maintained it. The coroner side with me and said, yep, I'll put it down as a misadventure accident. And based on everything else, so that's where that worked out there. The next one I'll do is we get a call. This was a country town. We've got a naked female in her early 20s and she's bound by electrical wire. So that's the call you get. Quite sinister. Country town, not too kosher. Let's better go and look at this one. So off we went and sure enough, we go with the crime scene. There's a house. She's in the bedroom next to the bed in that bedroom. The window's broken in the lounge in the bedroom. House is a bit of a topsy turvy. We find there's chimpan cans in the lounge room, medication there. But then what does a crime scene tell me? She's got bruising below her knees, she's lying on her back and being bound by electrical tape. Electrical wire was in fact the phone cord, but it was quite loose. It wasn't restraining her at all. So I'm reading that your door knock, we find a couple of young teenagers, they come and say, well, look, we went there Saturday, so we know she's alive on a particular. Forget what day we got there might be the Monday or Sunday. I forget what it was. And they said, oh, yeah, we tried to knock on the door. Whatever reason, we heard the woman inside. Okay, then more you do, she's in a family, violence involved comes more sinister. Broken window, place is turned up. Where's the defect, though? Oh, he's nowhere to be found. Okay, let's start looking for him. We got a family violence stuff. Boyfriend, girlfriend. And the only injury she exhibited was below the knee, so on her legs. So we get the body back, we take the body back to Melbourne, do the post mortem down there. We had the pathologist come up, which was good. It's always good for the pathologist to see the body in situ because if there's a particular injury to a body, you can say, oh, that happened from that. They can piece it together rather than you try and explain it. That's why it's so important.

[Michelle Laurie]

I would think they would have to go there every time because you can have an injury in a certain shape and if you go to the scene you can realise, oh, that's the corner of the bedside table or whatever.

[Charlie Bazina]

Exactly, exactly. So we did that, take the body back. We then find the de facto or the partner. And he comes and says, well, yeah, I got no issues. I gave her an ultimatum, get out of the house. And, yeah, look, that window was broken from another altercation we had, but it wasn't physical. The fact is we got throwing things around the place so we could account for the damage in the window. No forced entry. She wasn't sexually assaulted at all. And we then find out that she was a heavy user of drugs. And the Serapacs we had and the Jim Bean cans, we know she was in the lounge room when the boys knocked on the door. She's alive then. No other injuries. How we account for the injuries, Be like an alcoholic, that they bruise quite easily. She was walking around. Why she was naked, I don't know. Not sexually assaulted and bumping into the coffee table and that type of stuff, which account for that. No other injuries whatsoever.

[Michelle Laurie]

I think the Seropax and the Jim Beam are accounting for that. Bumping into things.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah. And then ultimately it was a drug overdose based on all of that.

[Michelle Laurie]

So what was the phone cable? Was that.

[Charlie Bazina]

Well, she was thrashing around, either being on the floor and because it's a really long extension phone cable and she's either in pain or she's thrashing around and she's able to entangle herself in that phone cord. But it served no purpose, so it didn't make sense that an offender would do that. So all the things fitted in place. And this is where even doing the corporate talks that I do only just recently. And you're very mindful, that's why you don't identify locations, names, et cetera, et cetera, just from that description. I had a lady come up to me and she said, oh, was it at this particular country town? I said, yes, it was. She said, oh, that was my daughter. No, true. As I said here. Oh, God, yeah. You know, you've just got to be so respectful and you don't do it to glow, what you've done. It just. It's an education tool to the community because as you know anyone better than anyone, people are fascinated by crime.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, we're around everywhere. I mean, as I say, it's a small, small world. And it surprises me, though, the people who engage with true crime either listen to us or come and see you, who do actually have a personal.

[Charlie Bazina]

Yeah, connection. Connection. And some come and see you and say, oh, I had this case and I had this. And I get it to this very day, people contact me about certain things. Again, just to digress, unfortunately, nobody can ring A crime squad detective. They're siloed. And I reckon in my day, I want to talk to Charlie Bazuna. They spoke to me as the investigator on a particular job.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, most of you guys of your generation, your phone numbers are still available online. It always amazes me. Like again, as I've said to you before, you never retire.

[Charlie Bazina]

No, you don't. And that's why I became a private investigator. They say, well, what do I know to do best? I've done 38 years of investigation. I've been operationally police officer for 38 years of my whole career. What else do I know? What to do?

[Michelle Laurie]

Also, you've got a passion for service.

[Charlie Bazina]

You guys, very victim focused.

[Michelle Laurie]

Right. So it doesn't surprise when someone rings you or contacts you, sees you at a gig and says, hey, I've got this thing going on. It doesn't surprise me that you'd phone them.

[Charlie Bazina]

Well, people get surprised when you're hearing them back. But you know, it cost me nothing. That's what I say. And the same as when if I do a review, well, it's all pro bono, like a mercenary, but at the end of the day, yeah, I just. You don't lose it, like you say. No, you don't lose it.

[Michelle Laurie]

Thank goodness you don't.

[Charlie Bazina]

Then. This other one's a very interesting one. Now we spoke earlier about what people would do and et cetera, et cetera. So this particular call is down to a seaside property, it's a unit and the male occupant's gone missing, been missing for over a week, elderly gentleman. So in that case, when it becomes a suspicious disappearance, in those days we didn't have the missing person squad we have of today. Missing persons were done by us as a homicide squad and same as cold case. We didn't have a cold case unit. We did it all. It's left at that stage, missing persons left with local detectives to investigate. So eventually this particular detective, good hard nosed detective, which is good, they'd done the search of the place. Then at the very back of the, in the backyard little unit, there was a wooden cupboard, probably about 3 meters long by about a meter and a half wide, with two doors on it. One door had a slide bolt with a padlock, the other one had a slide bolt in place. In front of the cupboard as bone boys overlooked, was a big sheet of plasterboard. So the plasterboard was facing over this cupboard. So in desperation, this particular detective said, oh, well, there's one place I haven't looked because he can't account for him disappearing. He moved the plasterboard, moves the slide bolt out because that one had a padlock on it, opens a slide bolt, opens the door. There's the deceased lying on his back in there. So the deceased in his pajamas, he's been tied from ankle around his neck and around his hands. He's got a plastic bag over his head which is tied on. Very sinister.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, I think it's time to call homicide. Right. I mean, I'm a terrible detective, but even I would call homicide.

[Charlie Bazina]

So he does call homicide. So that's what I'm confronted with. So we do that. Okay. So we look at the crime scene and I look at it from an offender's perspective. Here we have a elderly gentleman and a lot of stuff I said earlier we may not be able to explain. Here he is lying in his bag. He's lying on a hessian mattress, if you will. Quite comfortable just lying there. We take the plastic bag off his head and there's a small LPG gas bottle inside the plastic bag. And a lot of suicides. People with suicide, they want to be in a position that they don't want to change their mind and they're very tentative about them. That's one trait which is going through your mind because you've done different crime scenes, but quite significant that he's tied up from his feet to his hands around there. So again, a lot of stuff we can't prove and how things happened. So I then look at and say, would an offender go through all this process of doing that? So we remove the body as best we can. And what about the slide bolt being in place now they're padlocked. Very sinister. But it didn't make sense to me to say, well, an offender wouldn't have put a deceased person in, then tied him up, or even as a tired person, he's on a comfortable little cushion mattress. Why the LPG gas bottle in there? Did he murder, look like a suicide, et cetera. So these things are going through your mind all the time. Keeping that open mind. Get the body back to the coroner's court. No sign of any injury whatsoever. And it's in inhalation of the LPG gas. Is the cause of death. Has it been set up by this particular an offender? It turned out to be suicide. We eventually found a note in the house saying his wife had not long died. He cannot live without his wife. So he took his own life. But went to such a an extent to do all of that. How he tied himself up. I can't explain how did he get the slide bolts in place from the outside. What we then find is it was a piece of string tied to the slide bolt. And this guy was a very highly intelligent individual. So he's got himself in there, pulled the string, pulled the slide bolt, but he's obviously holding the plasterboard at an angle that opens the door. So he's got in with the plasterboards, made the slide bolt put in place, been able to tie himself up while he's in this confined area.

[Michelle Laurie]

But even once the time he's pulled the slide, by the time he's pulled that across, he's locked in.

[Charlie Bazina]

He's locked in.

[Michelle Laurie]

He can't escape.

[Charlie Bazina]

Exactly. But then he can't undo it. He wants to make sure. He doesn't want to change his mind. He's put the gas and the gas bottle's only turned on minutely. Now, would an offender do it minutely? The offender would turn it on full blast if he was gonna. So they're the traits to say an offender wouldn't be smart enough to set up this intricately. No other third, second person involved. And we're more than happy to say it was a. But this is the whole purpose of having a specialist unit having those skills. Cause we are exposed to all these weird and wonderful deaths that occur.

[Michelle Laurie]

Thanks for joining us on Australian True Crime. If you would like any more information about anything you've heard on the show today, or support numbers, just check out the show notes.

[Charlie Bazina]

The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders, past, present and those emerging.