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- [00:04]
Narrator
On the afternoon of 13 February 2017, teenagers Abby Williams and Libby German were dropped off at a popular hiking trail near the Monong High Bridge just outside their hometown of Delphi, Indiana. About 40 minutes later, Libby posted a picture of Abby to her Snapchat account showing Abby carefully walking across the bridge. And it was the last time they made contact with the outside world. Although it was not the last time Libby recorded their surroundings. The girls were reported missing later that afternoon and sadly, their bodies were discovered the following day. The day after that, police released a photograph of a man they wanted to speak to. It was grainy, but it was pretty close up. Surely they thought in this tight knit community of less than 3,000 people, somebody would recognise the man in the picture. It would be another frustrating week without a break before police would make an admission that the photo was actually a still image from a video. The video was recorded by one of the victims, Libby German. At that point, they also released a few seconds of the video in which the man ordered the girls to move down the hill. The video turned the case into an international sensation. And yet years passed without an arrest, until finally, in October 2022, a local man by the name of Richard Allen was taken into custody. Richard Allen admitted he was on the Mononghai Bridge trail that day and in 2024 he stood trial for their killings. A jury found him guilty of murdering both girls. He was sentenced to 130 years in prison. The prosecution's case centred on an unspent.40 calibre round found between the girls bodies. It was linked to Alan's firearm, along with multiple incriminating statements he made while in custody. Our guest for this episode of ATC International is Susan Hendricks, an American author, journalist and anchor who wrote the book down the My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. This is Australian true crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created. The Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [02:40]
Susan Hendricks
It was February 13, 2017 when the girls were reported missing. And I remember being on the set that day and we did cover it as two girls missing but nothing had come about meaning they didn't know of course the severity. And at first we didn't cover it because no one knew about it. It the families thinking okay, Libby's dad Derek was supposed to meet them at the trailhead at 3 o'.
- [03:06]
Interviewer
Clock.
- [03:06]
Susan Hendricks
They never showed up. He called Becky, his mom and said the Girls aren't here. What do I do? He started calling their names. So of course, at that particular point, you never think that the worst would occur. Your mind just doesn't go there. But as the hours went on and the girls weren't around, weren't coming home, weren't calling, and Libby, of course, had her cell phone, they started to worry and get concerned, but their thought was, oh, maybe they just got injured. They, they can't move. Maybe someone broke a leg. Kelsey, Libby's sister, told me that her mind was going everywhere. But then the town, such a small town, under 3,000 people, really rallied around this, got together and formed this search party. And they were searching with officials as well. As soon as they were reported missing. I say the search kind of picked up steam around 5:15, a little bit later when they were officially declared missing and the authorities called off the search officially. And Sheriff Toblezenby said, look, it just, it's so dense down there and it became dangerous. So officially they called it off. But no one really left in terms of the townspeople of Deli. They were down there with their flashlights and Becky remembers just that orange glow, that yellow, orange glow of the lights of the flashlights and feeling good, that, okay, everyone's down here, everyone's looking. And they're all were positive at that point. But it was cold that night. It was abnormally warm during the day than it normally is. But at night, of course, the temperatures were dropping and that's when the worry set in. But their minds had never gone to murder at that particular point. Next morning, everyone gets up, starts again, and it's not like they went home and went to bed. I mean, there were people looking throughout the night. And the next day when the sun came up, I believe was around 12 noon their time. And again, it is dense down there. So if you've never seen the area, you may think, well, how could no one have spotted the girls? Well, it's because of all the brush and the small hills and the creek down there. But Becky said she held on to hope that morning, even so. And then she heard a firefighter say that they had found the girl. She heard whispers of that and she got her hopes up and went up to her sister and said they found them, they found them. And her sister knew at that point. And then she said she saw her sister's face and then knew it was the worst outcome that they could even imagine. And they couldn't really grasp it at that particular point.
- [05:37]
Interviewer
No, because it is such a small community, it's a safe community. Right. It was unfathomable that the girls could have been taken by somebody, murdered, let alone as the story progressed, it became such a horrifying story more and more. So it's the kind of community as well, where if there were blow ins, we would call them in Australia, but people who, tourists, people who were new to town, they would have noticed. They would have been noticed.
- [06:07]
Susan Hendricks
Right, exactly. Because it was so small, less than 3,000 people in the entire town. So if you didn't know someone by name, you may have known their family member. And it just felt to me like this perfect small town when I went there in 2019. But the next day on the set, I do remember it was breaking news. I was anchoring and it came in that the girls bodies were discovered. So the producer said in my ear, we're getting an interview with you. Ron Logan, he owns the property. He's coming up after next commercial break. I said, okay. So then we're in the commercial break, I do a mic check and I know that it's his land where the bodies were discovered. And we have about a minute or two in between to kind of gather that information and then so be it. We're live. And he says, this is horrible. I would never imagine that it would happen here. This could have happened to my boys. Saying that his boys were raised there, they went down there all the time to the bridge. What surprised me, it was more difficult to get to because when you see the bridge and you see the man, the video that Libby was able to record on her phone walking, you think maybe at least I did, you don't see the enormity of this.
- [07:20]
Interviewer
You make that point so well in the book. You were so right. When we're seeing her photos and even media photos. Absolutely. We underestimate, I think, the area, the topography, and certainly the bridge. But you go into a lot of detail in the book about this area and the bridge itself. It is a very, very dangerous spot. And I guess locals have become sort of, you know, very relaxed about it. But yeah, Tell us about the first time you saw this, this location.
- [07:48]
Susan Hendricks
It was February 2019 and it was almost two years to the day that the girls were murdered. And I went there to cover the story. A producer said, we're sending you to Delphi. And I interviewed Sheriff Hope Lessenby, a detective, Becky, Patti, I had gotten to know Mike, Patty, I was in their living room. And Kelsey, Becky and Mike are Libby's grandparents who she lived with. And so I got to know them and I became closest to them because Abby's family had chosen and Mike and their family, Libby's family, respected that just differently how to deal with the media, because everyone, you never think, what would I do? And you don't think you're going to be in that situation. They're more of a private family. And I remember before I met Mike, he stood up at the podium, I believe it was in early March, reading a statement from Abby's family saying they chose to be more private at this particular time and to please respect that he was speaking to the media. So it had been almost a month or less than since the girls have been murdered when he, he said that. But when I said to Kelsey, Libby's sister, that that's where we were going next, it was two photojournalists from cnn, myself and a producer. And Kelsey said, I'll go with you. And Mike, I remember looking over and he said, are you sure? Are you okay? Because if you think about the bridge and the memories, and Kelsey was the last one to see them. She dropped them off. So she said, no, I'm okay. So I remember walking down with Kelsey and it was pretty cold that day, but we had hand warmers. We were ready. Boot warmers. And I was joking about how freezing it was. And she was just so kind and very young. Only 19 at the time. 18 when her sister was murdered.
- [09:32]
Interviewer
But very, very mature, isn't she?
- [09:34]
Narrator
She.
- [09:34]
Interviewer
She was already working. Yeah, they were very, well, they are assaulted the earth kind of family.
- [09:39]
Susan Hendricks
Yes, and very mature in certain ways, but also very young in other ways. So you realize, oh, she was only 18 at the time. And look, she was thrust into that, an advocate for her sister, not to mention all the guilt that she told me she felt on the inside. So as we approach, I went, I mean, you just, you walk up to it. It took about 15 minutes to get there, maybe 10, 15 minutes during the walk. But we did stop for a short time on the way there. And the CNN photojournalist said, hey, we're not allowed to get arrested anymore. You know, we're going to get a lot of trouble. We're calling CNN because it said no trespassing. But Kelsey said, no, it's fine because they're used to that area and saying those signs are always there. And he said, I'll, we'll wait back and we'll. We'll call. And Kelsey was talking to Barbara, my producer at the time, and I just thought, oh, I'll walk up a little bit. Maybe I'll see it And I started to walk a couple feet. And then it felt very isolating. It really did. I understood, okay. I could see this because we reported so many times as different media outlets were that how could this happen in the middle of the day? Well, it's dense and no one was there when I was there. But it's not what you would picture. Oh, kids go there all the time. You could see how there's little pockets of hidden areas and how, of course, I knew why I was there. The double murder. So it may have been a preconceived notion I had, but it just felt chilling. So I paused and said, I'm not walking anywhere near this bridge alone. I ran back. Then we all go. And I see it, and I thought, oh, my gosh. I mean, that moment, massive. It was 63ft up. I didn't know at the time. You could have told me a hundred. But what was most chilling were the big gaps in between. It was an abandoned railroad. So just. I mean, gaps. And I'm scared of heights. As a young kid, I guess, Abby and Libby's age, I wouldn't have been. I could see myself walking across there. When you have no fear and it's kind of what you do.
- [11:39]
Interviewer
We get a little bit of a sense of that in the photo of Abby where she's. She's obviously sort of. She's looking down, she's being quite cautious as she's taking a big step across. But you're right in the video, though, of the man walking towards them, he. He appears to be walking very, very confidently. I don't feel as though there's any gaps beneath his feet at all.
- [12:01]
Susan Hendricks
That's a great point that you bring up about Abby, because she had never been there. Maybe not never, but not often, according to her family. Well, Libby had been there a lot. So to Libby was. She was used to walking across it. It was no big deal. That's exactly what I saw with the man on the bridge. To him, you would have thought that it was just a sidewalk, that he was taking a stroll. So it was clear to me that that person had been there. Especially once I saw the bridge. And I went, oh, my gosh. And I did mention Paul Holes earlier. He said that to me too, that when he. He didn't understand. He saw pictures, but he didn't understand certain things about the crime. And just what. I mean, that's what he does. And he's excellent at it, obviously. So he can see things and assess things and maybe put his mind in a killer's mind and look around and see. He said to me in the chapter, I see things that don't have to be there. Meaning the crime didn't have to. This didn't have to be part of this. And why was it there? His question was, why down the hill? Why that particular area? When there's houses, there's a few in the background. And then he understood, once he saw it, how isolating it was. And he essentially said to me, at the end of that bridge, at the end. And maybe Richard Allen waited for that and that was the trap. That is what his plan entailed was to get the girls on the other side of the bridge, take them down the hill, knowing that he would have time to do what he wanted to do.
- [13:34]
Interviewer
So were they kind of trapped at the end of that bridge? There was no. Yeah, that's the sense I get. They couldn't run, for example, by that stage, right. Because they could see him coming for quite a ways. And clearly Libby, if not Abby, or maybe both, she got a bad feeling. She got a bad feeling for quite a while when he was approaching them because she started recording.
- [13:55]
Susan Hendricks
Oh, she did. And Becky said to me, you know, Susan, she watched those crime shows, she wanted to study, be in that field in some way. She would talk about it. So I think, and Mike said to me, you know what, Susan, I think that she wanted to come home. The reason she hit record and say, grandpa, look at this guy, isn't he creepy on the bridge? Because you don't, your mind doesn't go, especially as a 14 year old, really. I mean, you may get a sense, and I believe fully that they both sensed, of course, something was off. But to hit record, you don't think this person can murder the both of us. The reason why it was a trap is that that now is private property. And that is where. Because the entryway on the other side is where they were dropped off. So the chances of seeing other people. And that's where witnesses, according to the probable cause affidavit, saw someone they thought looked like Richard Allen. But on this side it's a lot more isolating. I mean, essentially, yes, it is a trap because where are you going to go? There. It's private, proper. The homes are too far, of course, two young girls. It's been a question from some who ask, well, how do you think this person. A rhetorical question, control two girls. Well, I could see that if I was 13 or 14. Anyone has a gun, I'm going to listen to them.
- [15:14]
Interviewer
Yeah, absolutely.
- [15:15]
Susan Hendricks
And then of course, the unspent bullet which was found in between the girls bodies was matched. And I had to learn a lot about the bullets and what you can see and can't see and what an unspent bullet, bullet even is, because they,
- [15:28]
Interviewer
they did interview him, didn't they? Very, very early on. They did speak to him.
- [15:31]
Susan Hendricks
Exactly. That's the beginning. Right when he came forward, which it's frustrating and infuriating all at once for the families because he put himself there. Which is interesting to me because the recording at first, first what was released from Libby's phone was a still shot. And then they came out with the sketch and then later, of course, the video. But down the hill, the voice, we did guys, down the hill came later. April 2019, the word guys was added to down the hill, but that was not released to the media at that time. When he came forward and said, I was there, this was with a conservation officer meeting him in some sort of parking lot, saying, I was there. This is what I was wearing. I was looking at my phone, at the stock ticker, and I was watching fish, looking at fish, which seemed odd and. But put himself there that particular time. Since then, he's kind of dialed back that time, or his attorneys have. Meaning what time he put himself at the bridge. But would he have put himself there if his image was released in the media? I don't think so. So apparently the frustration is that that conservation officer took down the note, said, thank you. I believe maybe he looked at this. Of course, nothing like this had ever happened in this town. He looked at this person working at cvs, husband, father, as more of a witness than a possible suspect.
- [16:59]
Interviewer
Absolutely. Because that's obviously how he was presenting himself, you know, in those early days when police say, if you were there, please come forward, you may have seen something, you may not realize you saw something, but please come forward. So no doubt that's how he was presenting himself as a potential witness who came forward and said, I'd love to help you. I didn't see anything, but I was there looking at fish. Very innocent, very innocuous. Yeah, I just work at the local pharmacy. I'm a local guy.
- [17:25]
Susan Hendricks
And I think though, that the question that has been brought up even to me saying, but wait, wait, if the video came out and the audio came out and you see the guy, wouldn't you say that's, wait a minute, Richard Allen came to me, Is that him? That connection never happened. Of course, I'm not blaming by any means one particular person for this massive Investigation where the FBI was involved. But I will say the Indiana State Police came out and said this was a misfiling, quote unquote by the FBI. It was a mistake, it was filed in the wrong spot. I don't know, literal files, I think maybe on the computer is what they're saying, but somebody messed up. So they're saying the FBI misfiled. Well, the FBI came out right away with a statement and said, it wasn't us, we didn't misfile anything. So you kind of see the cracks in the cohesiveness and I wonder if the cracks were there all along.
- [18:15]
Interviewer
We. It's very, very common story, don't you think? I mean, we certainly, you know, I'm sure you've heard of Ivan Millet, our backpacker killer here in Australia. There was a young British man who was kidnapped by Ivan Millet and taken to the spot. And they went through all the. The kind of M.O. and he managed to escape. And he called in that attack to police years, years before Millet was captured. And it was misfiled. It was just lost.
- [18:41]
Susan Hendricks
It was just lost. Right. And so if. If there's one thing that may be missing or if, if. Because the cohesiveness obviously wasn't there at that particular time, no blame on anyone in particular, it does make you wonder because the biggest fear for the families was if this person is capable of this double murder, horrific murder, slaughtering two young girls, he's capable of doing it again. Yeah, that was the family's biggest fear.
- [19:08]
Interviewer
Yeah. Because that's a big attack, isn't it? You would think people don't usually start that way and they don't usually finish that way. It's not usually an attack that someone carries out once.
- [19:18]
Susan Hendricks
Right. And he was 44 years old.
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Interviewer
Yeah.
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Susan Hendricks
In his 40s. I asked Paul that, I said, can it happen? Does it happen? Is it odd to you that it would happen? And he said, well, it is, because you think a father, a husband, you're going to wake up at 44 years old and kill two young girls in the middle of the day. He did mention, though, the fantasy of this. If he had been thinking about it for years and years and acting on this and then having that fantasy and having that sustain him because there was no arrest for close to six years. But that was a fear for everyone in the community.
- [20:02]
Narrator
If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you. You can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800-Respect.org au or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 13, 11, 14.
- [20:35]
Interviewer
What about the idea that there was a. Or that one of the girls at least was in touch, I think via Snapchat, with an account that was actually a group of men sharing an account and using it to contact girls. Young girls, yeah.
- [20:48]
Susan Hendricks
Keegan Klein, it came out through. And again during the investigation, whether it was connected to the murders of Abby and Libby or not, there was really no information that was given to the media. It was trickling in and out. But the Indiana State Police, when they did come out and say, has anyone interacted with this handle? It was Anthony Schatz, AKA Keegan Klein. They connected it to someone that looked nothing like Anthony Schatz, it turns out.
- [21:16]
Interviewer
So Keegan Klein is the real man, right?
- [21:19]
Susan Hendricks
The real person. And Anthony Schatz was a model and they took modeling pictures. And now a police officer and he has two daughters now. He came out and spoke to a local news outlet and said, I just feel horrible about this, that my picture was used if it was connected to the murders. But what we do know is there was communication from Libby's phone to Anthony shots, not knowing, of course, because. And so that was it. Thinking, could this be it? Because the Indiana State Police saying, look, we're not saying why we want to know, but if you have interacted with this handle, who you thought was Anthony Schatz, come forward. And at that time, these, let's say there were young girls who were in contact with this with Anthony Schatz five years prior. So Kelsey posted on Twitter saying, if anyone interacted with this, please come forward. Investigators want to know that information. So it was clear they wouldn't say how or why that that piqued their interest.
- [22:18]
Interviewer
So the Anthony Schottz account was a classic catfishing account. That. That is. That we know.
- [22:23]
Susan Hendricks
Yep, that we know. So Becky was devastated, saying, I spoke to Libby. I feel like I failed her. In the beginning, it was called the Snapchat murders because Libby did post that picture of Abby to Snapchat. And. But then that went away kind of the. The thought. Because everyone thought that in the beginning, could this be connected to something with social media at all in any way? And investigators telling the families, look, right now, no. But then when this name came up, Becky was thinking, did I fail her? Did I not talk to her enough. And we were on stage at CrimeCon, and Paul looked over and said, first of all, these predators are very good at what they do. They're very good at grooming. It's not your fault. These are 13. Abby and Libby were 13 and 14. Girls that age want to meet cute guys. He was cute. And they thought, oh, this is fun. And that. Don't blame yourself. And, of course, no one blames the young girls. Now, the big question was, was this connected to the murders? Well, with the lack of information that we had, and I understand the superintendent, Doug Carter, fielding questions for years, some of the same questions with media outlets everywhere, saying, first of all, how did the sketches change? Why haven't you arrested someone? It's a small town, under 3000 people. Cut that in half, let's say about 1500 people. Why is there no movement here? And he. He took that and he said, we're working as hard as we can. We're working in unison with the FBI, Indiana State Police, I mean, doing what they can. And the families really had a good relationship with authorities as well, saying, we know how much they care. Abby's grandmother told me, you know, Susan, I saw their phone. One of the detectives, and the screensaver was Abby and Libby, they stay up at night. They sleepless nights. Couple of investigators put off retirement. So she said it wasn't a lack of caring, but if you think about it. And there was no connection. I've heard this from several people saying, if it is a murder where there is no connection, it's not your family initially. If there's no. Those are very difficult to solve. So what I think they were banking on during this long, tedious investigation of tip after tip is someone recognizing the man on the bridge, saying, that's my dad. That's my uncle. That's my cousin. And that, I think, is where all of their resources at first went, like, oh, someone's got to come forward.
- [24:45]
Interviewer
Because he did seem so recognizable, right? That was the frustration for years, as this is a small community. And this video, while grainy, it seemed pretty distinctive. The walk, the. The body shape, the voice, it all seemed pretty distinctive.
- [25:01]
Susan Hendricks
Like so many people I've watched that piece of video. It's a couple seconds over and over again. And because Libby was so far back, you can't make out any facial features. And I believe he had something covering here and maybe a hat. So it's hard to see, Right? And you can zoom in. And I've listened to that over and over again. And then you wonder is the Jacket bulky, Is he thin? Is he heavier? Does. Is he holding something in there? I mean, so many people were analyzing this and saying, who could it be? I will say that being in the town, so many men look like that. They just do. They all do. They all do. They all have the blue jacket, they all have blue jeans, they have the boots that it doesn't feel like out of place. So that's why I think unless you're there and you see it, that you say, oh, I understand why it's not solved.
- [25:48]
Interviewer
I shouldn't chuckle. But when you say that. Yeah, I think I look around in my own town and I think, yeah, there are men of a certain generation who do all dress and look the same. Absolutely. Because I remember seeing a photo after Richard Allen was arrested where he was wearing a jacket that looked very much like the jacket in the video. And people were saying, oh, well, there you go, it's the jacket. And now that you say that, I think, oh, God, probably every man in town has that jacket.
- [26:11]
Susan Hendricks
Yeah, every man in town has a jacket. And they're either older or younger, but they all look like that from what you could see, although it's blurry. And I even thought to myself, I wondered if that was a relative of mine, would I know? Would I know if he walked that way? Maybe. Maybe the voice I would know with down the hill. And then when he said guys, it seemed more friendly. So it was. So I think that's why it did generate so much attention and garner so much attention, number one, because he's that horrific crime and these innocent young girls having the wherewithal to record this. So we were able to hear the voice of a killer, which was chilling. And everyone, of course, that the family said, we need your help. Please call in a tip line. It seemed like there were so many people who wanted to get the guy on the bridge, and it just wasn't happening. Year after year.
- [27:01]
Interviewer
Were people calling in a lot of names, though. Were people. You know, were police tied up for a long time. Yeah. Sifting through people who were not connected.
- [27:11]
Susan Hendricks
I was on stage with a panel with Sergeant Kim Riley, who was on this from the start. I mean, he was the one who was at the first press conference making the announcement saying, two bodies were discovered. We suspect foul play. He has since retired, and he was on stage and this was two years later. And he said, said, look, we want to give you some facts about what a good tip is. They literally had to spell it out, because I think with good intentions, people would call in and Say, I saw a guy and a greyhound in Michigan. It looked like the guy, and that would be the tip. I mean, so what are they going to do with that? Or it's my cousin Jim, he lives in Florida, and that's it. So it's who you think it is and that you. You could remain, of course, anonymous with this, but who you think it is. Why their name and the families did say when they were pleading for help from the public, no tip is insignificant. So they also wanted you to recognize people in your own family. I believe once they saw the way he was walking, they knew he was from there because it's difficult to even find the bridge, much less be able to navigate that area and walk on the bridge like he was. So they thought he was in town. So saying is someone. Did they gain weight? Did they lose weight? Are they using drugs? Are they using alcohol? Are they acting. Has their behavior shifted after the murders? And I think they were really pleading with family members to say, look inside of your own house. Abby and Libby need you, and the public needs you. One of the press conferences going as far as to say, this could happen again if you don't call in, almost saying, we know someone recognizes this guy. Tell us it's him, and let's get him. And that didn't happen.
- [28:54]
Interviewer
One of the most incredible moments I've ever seen in my life at a press conference was when the lead detective started saying, you might be in this room.
- [29:01]
Susan Hendricks
I mean, that was chilling directly to
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Sheriff or Lead Detective
the killer who may be in this room. We believe you are hiding in plain sight for more than two years. You never thought we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but we have. We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you, and you want to know what we know, and one day you will.
- [29:39]
Interviewer
Wasn't that amazing? I'm sure you're listening to this. I'm sure you're watching this. You might even be in this room. It was really reminding, I think, reminding everyone that this is a small community. He is here. He is among us. He is. You know him. Don't forget that. Like, we are. We are all involved in this investigation, and we need to turn inward again and focus, refocus on this.
- [30:02]
Susan Hendricks
Is that.
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Interviewer
Was that. What do you think was happening there? That was amazing.
- [30:06]
Susan Hendricks
Yeah, I think that's a great point. Exactly how you said it, I believe, is what occurred. Because my first trip, as I mentioned, to the bridge with Kelsey flew home to Atlanta. And a couple weeks later, I get A text from Sergeant Kim Riley. You should come back. We're having a press conference on April 22, 2019. You should be there. It was a Monday, so I thought, oh, they're gonna. In my head, I thought, oh, maybe an arrest. Because I knew that they were inviting a lot of the media. And I said, okay. It was right after Easter. We have to be there. So what I was thinking is, okay, what's going to happen here? It's obviously big, but how many shows? I was thinking logistically. So I'm on the 5am in the morning to talk about what we could see. So I'm writing down, thinking what we could see. So the press conference is about to start. We go in the room. I had done some live shots on various shows. So I'm sitting in the front row on the rug, sitting there with my notes, and then he comes out. I did mention going back when. When we walked in, I had to go back and forth a few times for live shots and then back in the room before the press conference started, back and forth. And these nice volunteers, nice women, kept asking me, did you sign in? Did you sign in? So it was clear to me that it was their job to make sure everyone was signing in. It was very important to them. In hindsight, you think so that there
- [31:28]
Interviewer
was a record of exactly who was in the room.
- [31:31]
Susan Hendricks
I think they thought he was going to be there and that he would sign in. So it was very important for us to sign in. So once I saw the superintendent come out and say, change of direction. We're onto you. We believe you live in Delphi or from Delphi, lived here once or still live here and could be in this room like you said. And at that time, there's lines of cameras behind me and of course, reporters next to me. And I even have it on my phone. I hit record at that particular time and have that chunk. But it was then you hear the cameras. It's like the clicks increase. The paper started to do this, and I started to get texts. You're live, you're. Because no one. You would see that in a movie and think that that's not realistic. That wouldn't happen. No, it happened. So right after that, we did a special. I was live the whole next day on every show. Then we fly back, we do a special. Detective Holman calls me that and emails me, Susan, I watch the special. Give me a call when you can. I thought, okay, hi, Detective, it's Susan. And he said, well, I watched it. You did a good job, but you Mentioned the FBI a lot. And he was kind of a funny guy, a nice guy, just kind of like an older brother type, like always, like jabbing at first. When I first did the interview with him, I'll preface this, my first time there, he said, well, I don't think I'm going to talk to you. I don't like you. And I said, okay, I don't like you either. And then he said, okay, I'll do it. I'll do it. So he's kind of that type of guy, funny. So he said, well, you mentioned the FBI a lot. I said, well, you don't tell us anything. What do we. And he said, well, it was our idea. They didn't even think we should do that. So I got the sense of, okay, there's kind of egos here, and they're not as cohesive as people are saying. And a cousin of mine, Kevin Hendricks, is in the FBI. I called him after that and said, what is the dynamic? Because you see it in movies and you wonder, is that true? And he said, well, if two girls are missing, the FBI is immediately. Or anyone, a minor missing, The FBI is called in. They're in no matter what. If their bodies were discovered as they were with Abby and Libby the next day, the FBI is to be invited in. And invited meaning then it's up to state police, local police to say how much access they have. So as far as we know, they could only have, let's say, the tip line to the FBI, but they're blocked off from anything that local and state police don't want them to see. So apparently it was their idea, as he told me, and FBI said, we don't think you should do it. So that always stuck with me thinking, why didn't they think they should do it? Was this a Hail Mary to get some movement, like, let's do this? And of course, I'm speculating here because we still. A lot of these details we won't know until trial. I'm wondering, was it a thought of, okay, we got to do something. We need movement here. It's been more than two years until I. I think, as you mentioned, I think it's. It was also. He's in this town because the. It was open to the public and not a lot of press conferences are. Not necessarily. I mean, they're just not. And they gave people enough time to make plans to get there. I wonder if he was really just speaking to the family of the guy in the bridge and saying, we know you live here. We're onto you. We have more witnesses. Time's up. Make the call. I think that that in hindsight is really what was being said.
- [34:49]
Interviewer
And that's a good point. He lives in the town. The FBI for all their expertise always have that broader and they seem to be more formal perspective. Whereas this is a resident, this is a member of the community who is frustrated and he is so much closer to the families. And yeah, it is a small town and it's like they need a shake up. I need to shake you guys up. Re energize you and everybody needs to get back in the game, you know. So tell us about Richard Allen. It seemed to come out of the blue, certainly from this distance. Did it for you? Did that arrest come out of the blue? This is, as we've mentioned, for all intents and purposes, a mild mannered pharmacist or certainly he works at the local pharmacy. Chemist, we call them. He's worked there for many years in town. There are photographs of him sitting at a bar with his friends with the sketch pinned to the notice board in the background of the perpetrator they're looking for. Who is this man or who did people think he was prior to the arrest?
- [36:00]
Susan Hendricks
Isn't that common that we all think of? I'm sure you do. You don't think of a monster or someone capable of a double murder as looking. I picture them looking evil.
- [36:12]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [36:13]
Susan Hendricks
You think they're going to look like a monster. And they rarely do. They. That's what's so frightening. They rarely do. What's so fascinating to me or to everyone really, how could they live their normal life? How could they go on it? How can they? Well, according to Paul Holes, and we all know this, they're not like us. So they can do that. The psychopath, he was able to stay married. He was able to raise a daughter. She's married, walked her down the aisle. All of the things that you think that can't be true. A man is married. Right. At cvs. And chillingly so the day that this arrest happened because I had heard names throughout, as I mentioned. And one year I was in Florida, I think it was like four years in and I get a call from a producer. But I was off and I was away. But I would have done something on the phone or in a studio in Florida, but she said Inside Edition wants to talk to you.
- [37:10]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [37:11]
Susan Hendricks
And I'm looking at this. Oh my God. Because obviously it was an arrest and of course the connection is there with his wife. People at CNN are taking The. The wife's Facebook page. You know, pictures you want to see. Not putting it on the air, but gathering that it has since gone away just to find out everything we could. And still there were so many secrets, I guess you would call it, or info that we weren't getting as to what led them to Richard Allen on that particular day. But I called Becky, Libby's grandmother, as soon as I heard. So I drove home, waited about an hour, and thought, should I. Should I? I'm calling her. So I called. No answer. She calls me right back. I said, oh, my gosh. She said, hold on. I'm walking out in the hall. I'm at my nephew's wedding.
- [37:56]
Interviewer
Oh, my.
- [37:57]
Susan Hendricks
And she said, I'm so. I don't want to ruin the wedding, but I could. I could sense excite, almost like a jittery excitement, but it's what everyone's talking about. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I said, what does Mike say? And she said, well, he's still hesitant. He wants. He. We didn't get the call yet from the investigators, so he wants the. Like, this is. Mike was hesitant because he had been. His hopes were up in the past, but they knew, of course, when someone's in custody, this is serious. And I said, do you know who he is? And she said, oh, my gosh. Tara, her daughter, which is Libby's aunt, who I'd met several times, she said, tara remembers him. She went into CVS the day of the funeral. She was getting pictures developed to put near the casket of Libby blown up.
- [38:40]
Interviewer
That story's true. I was going to ask if that's true. Oh, my God, it's true.
- [38:44]
Susan Hendricks
She was crying, and he said it on me. Like, here. I know my. I go to FedEx a lot to send stuff to my parents or my sister, so I know the FedEx people. Don't you like. Or CVS. Don't you kind of have familiar faces?
- [38:54]
Interviewer
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [38:55]
Susan Hendricks
That was it. So he said, it's on me. And to think that. That. That he would be able to say
- [39:02]
Interviewer
that, that he handed over these photos of the victims and said, it's on me. That's unbelievable.
- [39:08]
Susan Hendricks
It's unbelievable. So that's. It was so shocking.
- [39:11]
Interviewer
And you're so right, that point about, you know, how we. We always say, how could they do that?
- [39:16]
Narrator
How could a person do that?
- [39:17]
Interviewer
Because we. Of course, we don't understand. And it's a good thing that we don't understand. We don't think that way.
- [39:22]
Susan Hendricks
Yeah, we don't think that way. And I think that tends to be the fascination in, in someone like Bundy that we've seen over and over and over again or Dahmer or these people that it's like, wait a minute. But what I think is also, I guess, hard to comprehend, shocking, is that someone could have that double life, that family life.
- [39:44]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [39:44]
Susan Hendricks
We didn't see that with Jeffrey Dahmer. We saw that with btk.
- [39:48]
Narrator or Additional Commentator
Yes, he terrorized a Kansas community for decades. A serial killer who called himself BTK for bind, torture, kill, because that's exactly
- [40:01]
Susan Hendricks
what he did to his victims.
- [40:03]
Narrator or Additional Commentator
His spree lasted from 1974 to 1991,
- [40:07]
Susan Hendricks
during which time he claimed 10 lives, including two children. I got to know BTK's daughter through the years and she had no idea.
- [40:16]
Interviewer
I was just thinking of her. Absolutely, because she's written books and stuff about it, hasn't she?
- [40:20]
Susan Hendricks
Yeah, she's a wonderful person. She said, I had zero idea. She said now that she's in therapy, she has ptsd. She, she felt like, should I have known? I should have known. She didn't know. He would say, don't forget to fill up your tires and make her scrambled eggs and walk the aisle. And the human brain, I, I think with anyone's family who you love, who you think you know, can conceptualize or maybe even go there. And now that I'm saying this out loud, I wonder if that was the problem with the tip line. We can't as quote, unquote, healthy, normal human beings who aren't sociopathic killers can think that someone I'm living with is capable of that.
- [40:58]
Interviewer
Absolutely. I think no matter how many times you see that video, guys down the hill, you hear the voice, I don't think we could cope with thinking, that's my father, that's my husband.
- [41:11]
Narrator or Additional Commentator
In Delphi, Indiana, husband and father turned convicted killer Richard Allen handed the maximum sentence, 130 years in prison for the 2017 slayings of 13 year old Abby Williams and her 14 year old best friend, Libby German. The judge telling Allen, you rank right up there with the most hideous cases I've ever presided over. Adding, you continue to roll your eyes at me as you have throughout the trial tonight. With a gag order lifted, the girl's family's able to share their anguish for the first time in court. She would be 22 and she should be here. Libby's mom said so many what ifs, she doesn't get to fall in love and have babies. Abby's grandfather comparing the pain to losing a limb that will never Grow back. Libby's uncle leaving the courthouse.
- [41:58]
Susan Hendricks
It still ain't justice.
- [42:00]
Interviewer
Nothing is gonna bring the girl.
- [42:03]
Susan Hendricks
Richard Allen, during a hearing in June, confessed to his wife. It was discussed at this hearing, June 2023, that he in prison, was on a call with his wife and mother and confessed several times that he had done it. Confessed to the murders.
- [42:20]
Narrator
Yeah.
- [42:21]
Richard Allen (recorded confession)
Are you good? Are you good? Yes. Babe? Yeah, babe, what's going on? I just wanted to apologize to you. What's going on, sweetheart? You did what? What? I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby. No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't dare. Yes, I did. Don't say.
- [42:49]
Susan Hendricks
So it was mentioned at this hearing. There weren't cameras in the courtroom. And both the prosecution and the defense attorneys all said, yes, that did happen. And you know, it's on a recording. And the wife hung up abruptly is what we heard. And fast forward to this Odinous theory and this 136 page memorandum. What the defense attorneys did, they name names, too, of people who had been looked at or maybe investigated. They named names and they said that it was Odinism. And guess what? We talked about all of it. And guess what was not discussed? The confession. It worked. I feel like it worked because no longer were we talking about a confession. It was being tried in the media. And I was right there, too.
- [43:32]
Interviewer
And it's also raising reasonable doubt. Right? Oh, my God. Planting an idea that. Yeah, hold on a second. Maybe there's something else involved because is he capable of this really complex crime scene? Odinism. I've just googled because I couldn't. I couldn't get my head around.
- [43:49]
Susan Hendricks
I didn't know what it was either.
- [43:50]
Interviewer
No. An ancient Nordic religion. I do know that it was. And the idea was that the bodies had been staged sort of along the lines of runic. What's the word?
- [44:00]
Narrator
Yeah.
- [44:02]
Susan Hendricks
Could it have been sticks that were thrown? Could it have been staged? Could. And they said that Richard Allen, they were alluding to this, but in that memorandum, or what you want to call it, 136 pages, there was a footnote at the bottom because it said in there, those working in the prison had Odinism patches. And that turns out to be true. There was an Odinism patch. Now, they were alluding to the fact that he felt threatened. So we had to make this confession. But then at the bottom it said a footnote. That actually didn't really happen. So it was all of this stuff. It felt like thrown against the wall. Even if it had once been investigated, it was just all thrown out there after years of nothing being released. And then all of a sudden, all of this, the snowball of conspiracy theories is just out there.
- [44:48]
Interviewer
And it's so sensational. And it's such a perfect time in the history of mankind to throw out a conspiracy theory like Odinism, isn't it?
- [44:57]
Susan Hendricks
And my question would be, because guess what's also lost in all of this? The families. They want this solved like anyone does. If it's not Richard Allen, the families don't want him wrongly convicted. Why would they? Then the guy who did it is still out there. And if it's an. An Odinism group, you know, can you really convince other people in this cult to kill two girls? Is it all of these people? And, yeah, none of them came forward. Usually it's one. Because the more you that are involved, as we've seen through history, it's usually one person. The serial killer. You. You work alone. This many people knew about this, and no one came forward. It just seemed ridiculous. And I feel like it was a slap in the face to the families.
- [45:41]
Interviewer
The families always are the losers in. In every way, it seems. And you posted on X, formerly known as Twitter, a really powerful photograph from Patti. Who's Patty?
- [45:56]
Susan Hendricks
Oh, yeah, that's Becky. Patti. So that's Becky, that's Libby's grandmother, who I'm closest to. The one I called when someone was in custody. Like, oh, my gosh. So that's.
- [46:04]
Interviewer
And the post was about. Her comment was, this is how we spend vacation with our loved ones. How do you spend yours? And there's a photograph of Libby printed on a blanket that they've sort of gently spread over the back of a couch. It's a beautiful photo of Libby smiling, just looking like a beautiful, innocent teenager.
- [46:23]
Susan Hendricks
I'm glad you mentioned that, because that was their biggest fear too, of course, this from happening again. But with the girls, they're. Every day, they miss the laughter of Libby coming in the kitchen. They miss her every single day. So as we're arguing over Odinist theories, they're missing Abby, they're missing Libby. They don't have the girls there anymore. It's a. It's a gaping hole in their heart. And their fear was that the girls would be forgotten. And she said she makes it a point. Libby's family, they think the first year she wanted to go to Chicago for spring break, the first year after she was killed, they all went to Chicago. They brought her picture, they went to the restaurants, what she would like. I remember a year after Libby's Grandmother said, you know, Libby would have wanted me to ride the scooter. She'd always say, come on, Grandma, or come on, do this, do that. And so she did it. And we were on a panel and the crowd laughed and she just said, I feel like she's with us. Not physically, but with us. So with that, they bring a picture of Libby on a beach, whether it's a blanket or a sheet, they always bring her with, if you will. But she said, it's the little thing, Susan. Like your dental insurance card comes, but Libby's name isn't on there. Everyone else's is. She said, it's the little things that are just heart wrenching. But that post, the reason I reposted it, I could feel her anger. It was after all this crazy stuff, it's just. I felt for her. Sorry.
- [47:47]
Interviewer
No, it's okay. I did too. Yeah, it's funny. It's such a. It's an unexpected. I've never seen anyone do that before. I've seen a lot of people mark occasions, mark holidays, or bring their lost loved ones with them in different ways. But this beautiful fluffy blanket with the photograph printed on it so that she's on the couch, that's what. That's what really touched me. I thought, that's so beautiful. So that when everyone's relaxing together in the living room, Libby's there.
- [48:18]
Susan Hendricks
She's there. And they never are without thoughts of Libby, ever. Even with Kelsey. She had a baby girl this summer. She did say to me in Austin, Texas, we were together on a panel and we were at dinner after and it was a group of us. And I heard her. We were. I said, oh, you're. When are you getting married? You're engaged. And she said, it's coming up. And I'm so excited in this. And she said, but, you know, I'm not going to have kids until a person's caught or arrested. I can't do it. I have to be there for Libby. Almost like she was reiterating what she had decided years ago, you know, maybe before she even met her husband. Fiance at the time. And I wanted to say, but I didn't because I thought, who am I to say anything like this? I wanted to say, no, you should. And I just didn't. And then fast forward. I remember when Kelsey's grandmother said to me, kelsey's pregnant. Someone was in custody. I think she. She felt. Because there's a guilt, they say, that they feel that they connect with other victims in terms of family members, of, we can go on with our lives, and we can laugh. And, you know, I'm getting married. The milestones, graduation, marriage, kids. Libby should be here. She's not. Why isn't she here? They wonder. It dampens everything. But they know when Kelsey said this that Libby would want her to live on and be happy, because then he wins with Libby. Just seeing the videos that Kelsey showed me and her laughter and really going through. As I was writing the book, I was on Facebook, and I'm looking at her Facebook page that has now turned into a memorial page. But going way back to the beginning, I mean, that was. She was on Facebook a lot. And the joke she would play on Tara. I saw their relationship in a new light, how close. They were more like best buds than aunt and niece. And they. They played jokes on each other. Like, Libby would get on her page and say, my favorite niece is Libby, hands down. So they would joke with each other. And some of the messages, she said, like, be your strongest on your darkest days. Videos that she would post. There was a video of Abby, who said, thanks so much. She was showing her different friends and a quick, like, montage of pictures. And she said, thanks for making this year one of my best. So you just saw the regular Libby, like, the. Yeah. And you saw her, and she almost came to life in her posts. And you saw, okay, this is just a regular kid who's funny, who's sweet, who. Who left sticky notes around the house. And you open the door, pull down your visor, and say, I love you. And she was just. She always thought of others first. Always. And Mike said early on, you know, at the press conference, when he stood up, he said, because someone was asking about the video with Libby. And he said, you know what? I think both girls are heroes. He said, we don't know exactly what happened down there that day, but I believe that one of them could have possibly made a run for it, and they didn't. They stuck together. He said, they're both heroes. And I do want to end on this note, which I think it's a bright light in all of this. And I do remember asking Superintendent Doug Carter when someone was arrested, I remember him saying, because his father was in law enforcement that I heard. I said, good outweighs evil. You had said that to me years ago. Do you still believe that? And he said, susan, I. I do. I promised my father I wouldn't become bitter like he became because of being in law enforcement. Everything they say, he said. And I'm proud of that, because I'm not bitter. I believe that good outweighs evil, which I believe. And the families, their focus has been on, I think throughout. It helped them, at least throughout the process. The Abbey and Libby Memorial park, and it's Abby and Libby Memorial park that you can log on to and go see, and there. And there's pavers that you can buy where you can have messages. And it's just a massive park, which it started out. They. The families were joking. Oh, maybe a softball field for the girls because they were getting ready to play softball together before their murders. It would have been the first time they played together on a team. Well, they thought, why not a softball field? And then it turned into an amphitheater. It's just massive. And their. Their pictures are there. You see Abby and Libby and you. That's what the family says. Healing for them, hearing the laughter. They have charity events, walks, bike rides. So it's a place where they have some sort of solace, where it is peaceful and they can remember the girls and kind of escape from all the noise. I just think it just brings the heart of the girls who they were just wonderful girls. And the emptiness that they left is being able to, though, fill it with happiness. Because if evil outweighed good, that would be for nothing. The family wants everyone to remember the girls in that way of who they were.
- [53:03]
Narrator
Thanks for joining us on Australian True Crime. If you would like any more information about anything you've heard on the show today, or support numbers, just check out the show notes.
- [53:16]
Interviewer
The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders, past, present and those emerging.