The Energetic Healer Who Assisted The Search For Frank McGonigle - ATC International

Summary

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Australian True Crime: The Energetic Healer Who Assisted The Search For Frank McGonigle – ATC International

Date: March 12, 2026
Host: Meshel Laurie
Guests: Carol Williams (clairvoyant/energetic healer), Jim Cosgrove (author and friend of Frank), occasional reference to a mutual friend Robin

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the mysterious disappearance and death of Frank McGonigle, focusing on the unusual involvement of Carol Williams, an American energetic healer and clairvoyant whose abilities played a role in the investigation. The discussion revolves around Carol’s psychic experiences, her interaction with Frank’s spirit, the emotional impact on his family, and Carol’s work on other high-profile cases, including JonBenét Ramsey and Susan Smith.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Carol Williams’ Background and Abilities

• Carol describes herself as an “energetic healer,” emphasizing that everyone has intuitive abilities. She discusses psychometry, telepathy, meditation, and her involvement with a group called the “Spook Group” (00:47).
• She notes that her sensitivity can be overwhelming, picking up others' pains and emotions physically and emotionally:

  “When I’m dealing with people in great pain… I pick up on that pain and I experience it… it bothers you physically, it bothers you emotionally. Sometimes it’s just heartbreaking.” (B, 01:35)

The Search for Frank McGonigle

• Jim Cosgrove was Frank's childhood friend. Unsatisfied after years of investigation, he invited Carol to help (03:46).
• Carol had no prior knowledge of the case or the site, but experienced a sudden physical shove at the location where Frank’s remains were found, leading her to believe they’d found Frank (04:15).

  “I knew immediately that we’d found Frank… it was like Frank was telling me what happened to him.” (B, 04:15)

• Carol relayed specific details about the scene and injuries, which matched facts Jim hadn’t told her (04:15).
• The emotional message from Frank was for closure, especially for his mother and older brother, who carried guilt (05:27).

  “He wanted desperately for his mother to know that he loved her… and for his brother.” (B, 05:27)

Impact on the Family

• Carol passed on Frank’s message, bringing comfort and closure; Jim recalls an emotional conversation with Frank's brother, Mike, who was “sobbing on the phone” (D, 06:22).
• Carol later met Frank’s parents, who spent hours with her and expressed that her insight allowed them to finally move on (B, 12:58):

  “This has brought me closure, Carol. This has helped me to accept. And now I don’t need to take him home. You say that he’s… he’s gone. He’s moved to the other side now.” (B, 13:20)

Unique Experiences and Limitations

• Carol recounts the challenge of explaining visions—once hearing “Grateful Dead” repeatedly during an unrelated missing person’s case, only for the girl to later be found at a Grateful Dead concert (B, 14:05):

  “If it comes into my head, it’s going to come out of my mouth. And I hope I don’t offend you… but I have to say what I pick up.” (B, 15:34)

• She emphasizes never charging for her help, seeing her abilities as a gift (B, 31:06).

High-Profile Cases

JonBenét Ramsey

• Carol was contacted by Patsy Ramsey, JonBenét’s mother, for astrological chart readings (B, 17:02).
• Carol and her friend Robin told Patsy that no family member was responsible for JonBenét’s death and revealed Patsy’s cancer would return (B, 17:02):

  “You’ve had cancer and you suffered pretty much with it… it’s coming back.” (B, 17:02)

• Carol’s assessment that Patsy would not find her daughter’s killer before her death and her cryptic “Santa Claus” comment about the perpetrator (B, 18:42).

Susan Smith Case

• Carol foresaw Susan Smith’s children were dead before the police confirmed it, visualizing them in an angel’s arms and describing where the car would be found in John D. Long Lake (B, 26:22):

  “I told him I had a vision… the children are in it and that’s where you’ll find them.” (B, 27:57)

Experiences of Skepticism, Friendship, and Community

• Carol and Jim developed a lasting friendship after their work together, despite his initial skepticism (B, 09:08).

  “We became immediate friends.” (B, 08:10)

• Carol’s no-nonsense view on her abilities, her interactions with skeptics, and her firm ethical stance (B, 09:08; B, 25:43).
• Carol receives many requests for readings but maintains her boundaries and does not seek profit (B, 31:06).
• Jim expresses his continued reliance on Carol’s insight for new projects (D, 33:17).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the physical experience in the woods:

  “We were there when I got shoved, yes. And Jim caught me and kept me from falling to the ground… I said, ‘No, somebody pushed me.’” (B, 02:55)

• On relaying Frank’s message:

  “He wanted desperately for his mother to know that he loved her… and for his brother.” (B, 05:27)

• Jim on telling Frank's brother:

  “I remember calling Mike on the phone shortly after… and he was sobbing on the phone.” (D, 06:22)

• On the impact for Frank’s parents:

  “We laughed and we cried and we shared. And she said… ‘This has brought me closure, Carol. This has helped me.’” (B, 13:20)

• On JonBenét Ramsey’s case:

  “She said, ‘Will I know who killed JonBenét before I die?’… I said, ‘No.’ She said, ‘Who did it?’ and I said, ‘Santa Claus.’” (B, 18:42)

• On unexplainable phenomena:

  “Everybody can do this. Everyone.” (B, 33:28)

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Notable Segments (Timestamps)

• 00:47 – 03:46: Carol Williams contextualizes her abilities, the challenges of “reading” others, and introduces the case of Frank McGonigle.
• 03:46 – 06:22: The physical encounter at Frank's grave; relaying the message to Frank's family.
• 10:24 – 13:54: Carol’s insights into Frank’s emotional state, her subsequent interactions with Frank’s parents, and issues with law enforcement admitting to psychic involvement.
• 14:00 – 15:34: The “Grateful Dead” vision and lessons about trusting psychic information.
• 16:10 – 21:10: Detailed discussion of involvement in the JonBenét Ramsey case and experiences with law enforcement.
• 25:43 – 29:32: Discussion of the Susan Smith case, including Carol’s vision preceding police discoveries.
• 31:06 – 33:28: Carol’s principles on not profiting from her gifts and her close ongoing relationships with those she’s helped.

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Summary

This episode delves into the complexities—and controversies—around psychic involvement in crime investigations, through Carol Williams’ experiences. Her detailed sensory and emotional accounts, her impact on grieving families, and her narratives from high-profile cases challenge listeners to consider unexplained phenomena with empathy and open-mindedness. The deep, enduring friendship between Carol and Jim Cosgrove testifies to the profound human connections forged in tragedy—and perhaps, in the unexplained.

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Transcript

[A]

This is Australian True Crime International with Michelle Laurie. And welcome to episode two of this special double feature. I hope you've listened to episode one already with Jim Cosgrove. He was the childhood friend of a missing man. In this episode, we're going to talk to clairvoyant Carol Williams. Jim was actually there during the conversation, but he didn't get much in because Carol and I both love a chat. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.

[B]

I can pick up other people's energy. I don't read their minds, but I can tell. And if I get close enough for a start to talk, I can sometimes see things about them that's going on in their lives. And at one point, I really tried to dial back. I got to the point where if I passed you in the grocery store, I'd say, oh, check your right rear tire before you get. And it got to the point where it was making me nuts. I think everyone, number one, has the ability. Everybody I've ever met has had deja vu, and they think, boy, I've heard this before. I've been in this room, I've talked to, that I know what they're going to say. I mean, that has happened to so many, many people. And I think everybody depending upon the personality and the mindset. I'm a meditator. I, you know, enjoy gathering with groups of people that do psychometry and telepathy and astrology. And I belong to a group starting in the early 90s, we called ourselves the Spook Group. We didn't want to be so heavenly. We were of no earthly value. And we did all these things. And we did a lot of meditating, which I found so relaxing. And I was just amazed at some of their abilities. And the more I worked with them, the more I realized that I can do this, too. The most important thing when you start developing this is to learn to protect yourself. And when I say that when I'm dealing with people that are in great pain, are facing something very difficult, I pick up on that pain and I experience it. Not so much physical. Well, I do pick up on. I have physical reactions to their pain. And the drowning case that I worked on, I knew they were dead. I had a vision. And then for a couple of days after having the vision and dealing with the FBI a little bit, I had a horrible Asthma attack. And I don't have asthma. I mean, I just. I couldn't breathe. I couldn't get good breath. I was tired. I felt heavy. And it bothers you physically, it bothers you emotionally. And sometimes it's just heartbreaking when you start picking up what's going on in their lives. You have to keep your distance and not become completely involved with what they're going through. You have to learn to keep your distance and learn what questions not to ask and what questions are going to give you more information. With Jim, when I was with him and he asked me to go and hoping to find Frank, I knew we were there when I got shoved, yes. And Jim caught me and kept me from falling to the ground. And I said, oh, you almost fell. I said, no, somebody pushed me.

[C]

So Jim took you to a place in the woods where Jim knew that the remains of a boy he knew in childhood, Frank McGonagall, the remains had been found there. But you didn't know that. And you didn't know anything about Frank or his family or how he had been killed or found or anything. But you started to, not only to feel the presence, but things came to you about Frank and about his death. But this physical shove was a really strong moment for you, wasn't it?

[B]

I knew immediately that we'd found Frank. And I asked Jim, I said, would he do that? And he said, well, yeah. When I started explaining to Jim what had happened to him and the fact that he had a graze on his head and he had a hole in the top of his head and that he was propped against the tree with his one arm behind him, and I couldn't see it. I knew it. Yeah, I felt it. It was like Frank was telling me what happened to him. He wanted to communicate with his family. He was refusing to go the other side. Jim hadn't told me anything about the fight or the verbal disagreement had with his brother, nor his mother. And that's what he wanted.

[C]

I mean, in that case, it felt like he had so much that he needed to clear up with his family and for his family, because he had left sort of suddenly. I mean, he was known to go on his trips and all of that kind of stuff, but he had these few niggling things that. That were really upsetting for his family. A few of the family members were blaming themselves and all of that unnecessarily. Do you think that was a big part of the reason that was such a strong experience for you?

[B]

The only way I can explain it is I was able to tie into Frank's energy level. Okay. And I could pick up his emotion and his heartbreak and the fact that he wanted desperately for his mother to know that he loved her, he loved his whole family and for his brother.

[C]

Because they didn't have a great communication style as a family, did they? They weren't like a sort of affectionate, expressive family in that way. And so it was so moving actually that you were able to pass on these messages, wasn't it Jim? Or that because of you, Jim, you were able to pass on these messages, particularly I felt to his brother, who's this like pretty macho guys, the boy, the other boys in the family, Frank wasn't, but the other boys and this older brother's carrying this heartbreak that the last interaction they had was kind of, you know, chest thumping guy stuff.

[D]

Yes, you're absolutely right. I had kind of run into a roadblock. I, I wasn't getting, getting much information, but when I met Carol and she said she would help me, I thought, well, why not? And she, it turned out she was able to see some things that not only helped me but then in turn helped the family. And I remember calling Mike on the phone shortly after maybe that night that we met and telling Mike what, what Carol had told me. And he was sobbing on the phone

[C]

because again, none of that you knew, you didn't know how relevant it was to him, right?

[D]

Oh yes, he, he, I just relayed the information and he responded and said so much of it was correct and. Right on.

[C]

That's the beauty of your book, as I said to you initially, Jim is like there are so many levels to it. And this is one of them is it starts out with you sort of going on this search. It's this true crime book. But then there's the serendipity of meeting a lady one night in a motel. Two ladies, one of them is Carol. And then it opens up this whole other side of, of everything, of their family, of the story. And Carol and I said this to Jim and I was relieved that I wasn't the only person who said it. I thought for a bit of it there was going to be a love story between you and Jim. I thought surely there's, there's going to be this, this charming.

[B]

He already has a mother.

[C]

No, no, this charming, slightly older lady is going to also. I thought it was going to be a bit of Mrs. Robinson action going on here as well. And I was a little disappointed there wasn't to.

[B]

Well, we became immediate friends.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know we went out and we had so much fun the night before. And I paid for it all day the next day. I'm surprised I couldn't pick up anything.

[C]

What a meeting it was between you two. How old were you, Jim, when you met Carol?

[D]

I was 29.

[B]

I was 47.

[C]

And that was some years ago. We won't go into how many years ago. It was decades. And I think it is this incredible synchronicity that you have just as human beings that's allowed this, this friendship to continue through ebbs and flows of life and meeting partners and having kids and all these things. And to this project now, this. That popped up where you felt like you had to write the book about this experience so long ago. Jim.

[D]

Well, I will say without Carol, there really wouldn't have been a book I would have written about family, but it wouldn't be. The story became. Without Carol.

[B]

Well, see, he. He wasn't a real believer to begin with. He was so skeptical of in the ability. And besides that, we were laughing and giggling and my friend was out talking to me. And, you know, he thought, well, Carol's just letting my door talking for her. But I didn't have anything to say. But we, we just started out having fun and laughing and sharing. And I think once we got into the woods, the story changed. And he's always a whole different side of me.

[D]

I really am a believer. And even then I wanted. But I was trained as a journalist, not, you know, to be all, you know, gotta be by the book, be more FBI like, and not admit. But no, as soon as there was a little opening, I was in, yeah.

[C]

And. But that comes through in the book too, you know, and, and had it not, had you jumped in with, you know, both feet initially, it wouldn't have had the same narrative. You know, you have to, of course, because Carol, you know, there are a lot of people who claim to have abilities and they just don't. And then it's disappointing. And that's why I think so many people. That's probably why law enforcement can't admit to working with people. You know, there are very few people like you.

[B]

When I picked up Frank, I didn't pick up horror. Even though he was shot in the head. I didn't pick up that pain, I didn't pick up that fear. I picked up the emotion. I picked up his personal energy.

[C]

That's a really interesting thing you've just said, because to me, that scenario does feel horrible, horrific, like horror movie. Like he is in this place that reads to Me like the set of a horror movie. The scenario feels like a horror movie. He's been taken to this, like, the woods. It's in this port town, as Jim and I discussed, that feels like everyone's a little bit kind of creepy or a little bit sort of suspicious.

[B]

That's sketchy.

[C]

Sketchy. It seems exactly like a horror movie to me. So that's a really significant, beautiful thing. You've said that. You didn't pick up horror. Wow.

[B]

Well, I think he was past the horror. Yeah, he. Had I been there a day or so after he was shot, I would have probably picked up some of the horrible fear, but he was past that. He wasn't in pain anymore. He was in emotional pain with the urgent need to get a message to his family. Through communicating with his energy, I began to pick up things about the town, about other people. It's like Jim asked me could I could identify the person that had murdered him. And I described what I thought.

[C]

Didn't you?

[B]

It was what Frank communicated to me.

[C]

It's like you were looking through his eyes at that person. It was amazing.

[B]

Well, I could. I could see him sitting on the ground and where they positioned him. But I grew up in the area. I spent every. Every summer of my life at Myrtle Beach. It was very gratifying because his parents came to see me. Gosh. Several months later, they were on the way to either bring Frank home or to get a tombstone.

[C]

Well, I'm glad they did because they were deeply religious, Catholic, and for a lot of Catholics, the idea of speaking to the dead is verboten. It's.

[A]

It's.

[C]

You know, it's sinful. And yet the idea that you may have had some communication with this beloved son they'd been looking for for nine years must have been irresistible to think that you may have communicated with their boy. I'm so glad they visited.

[B]

They were going to stay 15 minutes, and they were there almost two hours. And we laughed and we cried and we shared. And she said, well, this has brought me closure, Carol. This has helped me to accept. And she said, and now I don't need to take him home. You say that he's. He's gone. I said, he's moved to the other side now.

[C]

He's.

[B]

He stayed all these months and years. You're hoping to get a message to his family, and he's done that, you know? And she said, I don't feel the need to do anything other than to give him a headstone, you know, because he'll. He'll Always be with us now because we have the answers. And I thoroughly enjoyed their visit and they were the kindest, nicest people. And I could see what a close knit family they would have had, you know, even with more than half a dozen kids. And I can imagine that.

[C]

Can you tell us about some other cases, please? Would you mind talking us through? Because you mentioned earlier that you had worked with the FBI.

[B]

Well, I can tell you. I can tell you one of my big goof ups.

[C]

Oh, if you don't mind.

[B]

Okay. I had a local detective call and they were just certain that this father had killed his stepdaughter. She had just disappeared. There's no trace of her. Nobody had seen them. So I met him and halfway between here and the town where he left and where the girl had left. And I got in his car and we're riding down the road and I said, is that we last saw her? And he said, well, she stopped there. That's the last place she was seen. I said, okay. So we rode around a while and rode around the whole time we're riding around. In my head I'm hearing the Grateful Dead, the Grateful dad, the Grateful Dad. And I'll go, what am I supposed to say? The Grateful dad is going to put me out on the next corner. That just sounds awful. Grateful dad. What's going on? What's wrong with me today? Anyway, we talked for a while longer and, you know, I told him, I said, well, she's not dead. The father did not kill her. She's pretty much of a spoiled brat. She gives her stepfather horrible, horrible time. And they bickered a lot. I said, but she's just hard headed and doing what she wants to do. She'll be found. Anyway, it's about a month later, they found her in Washington at a Grateful Dead concert.

[C]

Well, that's great. That's not. That's not terrible.

[B]

If, no, if I had said, right, the Grateful Dead, the Grateful Dead, she must have followed. The Grateful Dead found the Grateful Dead and you might find her. But I thought I was going to sound so outrageous if I did that. And I had to learn, this has nothing to do with you. That's why I've always told everybody, if it comes into my head, it's going to come out of my mouth. And I hope I don't offend you or hurt you, but I have to say what I pick up.

[C]

Well, that must be really hard too, because oftentimes you would have to say things that you know are shocking.

[B]

Well, I did to Patsy Ramsey. God bless America.

[E]

Six year old pageant contestant JonBenet Ramsey was found strangled in the basement of her own home in Boulder, Colorado the day after Christmas 1996. So who did it? Early on, suspicion fell on JonBenet's family.

[F]

I'm Patsy Ramsey, JonBenet's mother. I'm appalled that anyone would think that John or I would be involved in such a hideous, heinous crime. But let me assure you that I did not kill JonBenet. I did not have anything to do with it. I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul.

[B]

Patsy called me and said, I've been referred back to you. I understand you read charts and that you can read energy, whatever that is. And I said, well, yeah. And she said, well, you know who I am? And I said, yes, she's JonBenet's mother. And we had a pretty good conversation. She called me several times. She sent me birth dates and times and my friend Robin and I read charts on the entire family. The brother, John Bonet, her husband and her. And she called back and my friend Robin is a phenomenal astrologer. She does Vedic astrology, which is predictive. She called back and we talked about it. We told her no one in your family did it. Your husband is not guilty, you're not guilty. You know, your son is not guilty, Number one. None of you are capable of it. It shows in this chart. And she said, what do you see about me? And I was so afraid she was going to ask that. And I said, well, you've had cancer and you suffered pretty much with it. And she said, so is it gone? And I said, well, technically, yes. And she said, but it's coming back. And I said, yes, ma', am, it's coming back. And then, then she cried and I cried. And you know, how do you talk with someone and tell them that they're going to die of cancer? Yeah, but you asked me and I have to tell her. I can't hide what I, what I feel and what I know. And if you want to say, well, you're crazy. I said, okay, good, I'm gonna go home now.

[C]

If someone asks you straight out, you can't lie.

[B]

Yeah. And she said, well, am I going to know who killed JonBenet before I died? And you know, the tears started again and I, I said, no, no. She said, who did it? And I said, well, Santa Claus, that's one of the things you don't want to say. Okay. When you ask, and if you ask me today, I will tell you. Santa Claus.

[C]

And you're not the only one who's saying that.

[B]

Well, anyway, I told her, I will work with you until the FBI calls me. And when the FBI calls, I'm out. You know, I have a friend that was accused and actually jailed at one point because she knew so much. She must have been involved, and she had a time getting that straightened out. And I wasn't about to put myself in that position if I could help it.

[C]

Wow. But you have worked happily with the FBI, haven't you?

[B]

certain points, I've worked with them several times, and they've always been very open to listening to me and to following any clues that I gave them.

[C]

It's interesting because no one ever admits in law enforcement to working with people with your abilities. And yet I know that they do. I mean, I sometimes on the side, they'll admit that they have, or I've met people, you know, with your abilities who tell me they have, and I believe them. Why do you think that is, that they don't admit it?

[B]

I guess they feel like they can't prove it. There's no way to prove where you got the information. So if she knows all this, she must have been involved or he must have been involved. And so when the FBI called me, my husband answered the phone and looked at me and said, carolus, the FBI. And I got on the phone and he wanted to know, I understand you've been talking with Patsy Ramsey. And I said, well, I don't think that's any of your business who I converse with. And he said, don't get upset. We're trying to solve something here. And he said, do you want to share your conversations? I said, if you want to know what Patsy. And I had to say, then you'll have to ask Patsy. She called me. I didn't call her to talk. She called me. So I called Patsy and got her voicemail, and I said, patsy, the FBI has called me. I never heard from her again. That was the last. The last communication. She had given me her word, and she stood by.

[C]

Do you think that the JonBenet matter will ever come to any kind of conclusion?

[B]

Yeah, I think so.

[C]

You do?

[B]

I think it will. I was called by a TV show, and I know the woman's name, and I'm not going to mention her name. But she called me and she said, I want to bring you on my TV show, but I have to have verification from the FBI. You've worked for them. And I said, you're not going to get it. And it's just not going to happen. And she said, well, I'll have to tell you this. I think you're fake. I think you're fraud. I think there's no such thing as being psychic. I said, I've never claimed to be psychic. Little psychotic, maybe. Psychic. And she said, well, what do you think you are? I said, a weed Energy. I said, energy is never ending, you know, your spirit and the energy of people don't die, you know. And I said, so this is never ending. And she said, well, if you are such a good reader, read for me. I said, okay, you're divorced. You're heartbroken. It's fairly fresh. You have a little girl. I said, and she is so spoiled because you're trying to be both mama and daddy, and you're giving her everything she wants and you really raising kind of a bratty kid. She need to quit trying to be a best friend and be a mother and teach her responsibility and their consequences. And she said, okay, okay, I've had enough about the mother. She said, tell me about the guy. And I said. I said, well, you know, you're going to meet him. You're going to just be head over heels. She said, I've been head over heels in my life. I said, you're going to be head over heels. You're going to marry. She said, oh, my God, I'm. I'm not that far away from divorce. I can't do this. I said, and let me tell you this, do not move to Charleston, South Carolina. You will not fit in. You will be miserable. And she said, so he's evidently a producer or has something to do with the industry like I do and maybe has an opportunity on the East Coast. I said, yeah, it'll be beautiful. Opportunity don't take. Will damage your relationship. You're going to be miserable. Your daughter's going to. Don't move to South Carolina. Okay? So she said, okay, well, I'll keep you informed. Well, a friend of mine knew this woman's sister, and she is the one who gave her my name. And she failed to tell me. And I mentioned it to her and she said, oh, I know what she's talking about now. She said, you know, she got married. I said, yeah, I knew she was getting married. She said, well, I'm gonna tell her to call you. She said, you know, they're getting ready to move. Her husband's gotten this big promotion, and she's talking about giving up her spot on. She's thinking about giving that up and, and moving, you know, To South Carolina. I said, charles, I said, she's going to Charleston. And she said, yeah. I said, have a call me. And she called me. She said, I understand you wanted to call. And I said, yes. She said, okay, tell me the rest of it. I said, I thought I was full of poo.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Didn't know what I was talking about, huh? And we kind of bantered back and forth and laughed a lot. I mean it. There was nothing angry or hostile about any of it. It was very, very much fun. And she said, well, I'm moving to Charleston. She said, I get along with everybody. I said, you've never lived in South Carolina and you never lived with the wealthy in South Carolina. They're all different breed, they're cliquish. You're not going to fit. You will move back and I hope you and your husband make it through it. And this mutual friend, or the friend of her sister, it's my friend, told me that they didn't last a year and they were going, they were going back to the west coast and that they thought that they could work out the marriage, but they definitely didn't like living in Charleston, South Carolina.

[C]

Was it the Susan Smith case that you worked on? Our lives have been torn apart by this tragic event.

[E]

In 1994, Susan Smith claimed she was carjacked by a black man who took off with her two young sons. In the backseat, she pleaded for the safe return of her boys, 14 month old Alex and 3 year old Michael.

[C]

I would like to say to whoever has my children that, that they please, I mean, please bring them home.

[E]

Little by little. 23 year old Smith's story fell apart until this bombshell announcement.

[B]

Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children. I saw her on TV and got up and went downstairs. Okay. News was on and I couldn't stand watching it and I was really upset and I walked downstairs and my hallway, my father's house is like 50ft long. The house is very long house. And I started to walk down and I looked up and there was an angel in the, in the hallway holding the children. Now that was, that was when, you know, and I knew they were dead and I knew mama did it. Now there was no question in my mind, but I couldn't watch it on the news.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, and then my friend Narco called the editor and I was involved at that point, but that one is still painful to talk about because those little boys look so much like my little boys. So I don't talk about it very often. It was really a hard, a hard thing to deal with. Yeah. The FBI called me, had a friend who called editor of the paper in Union and talked with him and he talked to the FBI and they called me.

[C]

Where was the case at at that point?

[B]

At that point they had searched for the car.

[C]

So a young woman said that her car had been. Her car had been stolen by an African American man and the children were in the back, is that right?

[B]

Yeah, they were carjacked and I think they determined had come to the point where they didn't believe her. So they called me and my father answered the phone. I was staying, helping take care of my mother who was in her last days. And so I talked with them and I told him I had a vision and that I saw the children in an angel's arms and they were dead and that they had drowned. And they said where? And I said, well, it's a lake, it's a man made lake and it's very long and it's in the nearest entryway into the water from the road that leads into that lake. And I said and you'll find the car 16 to 18ft over in a bit deeper water, submerged. And they said the children in it? I said, yeah, the children are in it and that's where you'll find them. And they call me back at about 6, 6:30 the next morning. Tell me they'd found the children that fast? Well, they, they dispatched I guess right away and you know, went to. Because they'd already searched the lake.

[C]

John D. Long Lake.

[B]

It was, but I visualized it like in my head and it was just a very, you know, very long lake. I had no idea it was, it

[C]

was John D. Long Lake. That's amazing. Yeah. And her two children, 3 month old Michael and 14 month old Alexander were in the back of the car.

[B]

That one was the one that had the asthma attack, couldn't breathe and just took me, I don't know, 10, 12 days to actually start feeling normal again.

[C]

Does your spiritual life help you in any way, your understanding of. Because I feel as though you've got a sort of more sophisticated understanding of the afterlife. Does that help you when you're dealing with something like your mother's final days, do you think?

[B]

Well, it helps me immensely. When my mother was dying, I was on. I was here in the low country of South Carolina. My brother was in the service and had gone home to be with my father. She had had surgery and she had been in Intensive care. And my brother called and said, they moved mom downstairs. And I said, enjoy your time with her. Enjoy your visit with her. I said, john, she's going to pass. He said, how can you say that? She's eating tomato soup and talking. I said, she was sent downstairs to expire. It's a matter of hours. John, she's going to die. And he slammed the phone in my ear. Okay. He was just heartbroken. And within the hour, he called me and he said, she's gone. And hung up on me. And he didn't speak to me very often or really infrequently when he had to because he was so angry. He was just so angry that I

[C]

would say that when people know you or have a little bit of access to you, say they know your brother or they know Jim, or do they. Are they begging you a little bit? Oh, let me talk to Carol. Please. Let me have a reading with Carol.

[A]

I don't know if you ever.

[C]

Did you ever do readings for people for 100 bucks or.

[B]

I've never charged anybody a nickel. Really, I can't do that. No. If I was given a gift, and I do believe it's a gift, I believe that I'm here to be of service, not to be a wealthy, renowned anything. I'm here to. To help where I can help. I at one point shot darts and belonged to a very large dark league. Okay. And the word got around. I don't know who said what or when or my mate at that time may have said, she scares me to death. We're running down the road and she told me about my girlfriend. She busted me and gave me a final warning. I'm out of here.

[C]

Your actual. Your romantic partner?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

What a silly man he was.

[B]

Had been involved with the woman and they had broken up, but he kept going back to going back and having little dates with her and little lunches. And I just. We're riding down the road, wait until I got him on the interstate highway to tell him. Long distance between exits so I could have. Have my say. Yeah, I mean, I'm not.

[C]

He couldn't run away, Couldn't walk away.

[B]

No, no. He was in my Miata, so he didn't have room to get hide. So anyway, I don't know if he's the one that mentioned it. He probably did, but it was odd. Nobody ever came up and said, you put the funny thing on me. I'm thinking about taking a trip to Bahamas. Should I fly, should I swim, Should I stay at home? Nobody ever ever approached me. And I guess it's because I guess I can be rather intimidating sometimes myself.

[C]

But do you have people's coming to you going, hey, you know that Carol lady in your book?

[D]

Oh, yes. I, I get people when they read the book, of course they want to meet Carol. That's the first thing. And I often. Carol, I have to admit there were times when I wanted to call you and Jenny also, my wife will say, why don't you call Carol and ask her. Yeah, I don't want to bother you, but I did reach out to Carol.

[C]

What?

[D]

Last week about a new project I'm working on and I've run into a roadblock. And I said, do you think you can help me with this? So we're working on it together.

[B]

There are a whole lot of funnies out there. But I'm telling you, everybody can do this. Everyone,

[C]

Thank you to our guests today,

[A]

Jim Cosgrove and Carol Williams. And don't forget, you can get your own copy of the book Ripple by using the link in the show notes to this episode. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13 yarn.orgau thank you for downloading this episode of Australian True Crime. We'll be back next week.