The Epstein Files with Tara Brown - ATC International

Summary

Podcast Summary: Australian True Crime – "The Epstein Files with Tara Brown"

Episode Overview This episode delves into the dark and complicated saga of Jeffrey Epstein, guided by investigative journalist and senior 60 Minutes reporter Tara Brown. The conversation unpacks Brown's recent documentary "Inside the Epstein Files," exploring the extensive abuse network orchestrated by Epstein, the stories and psychology of survivors, the influence of powerful enablers like Ghislaine Maxwell, the international fallout, and the slow, frustrating process of revealing the full truth in the wake of Epstein's death.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Overwhelming Reality vs. Conspiracy (00:58–03:51)

• Tara Brown describes the enormity and complexity of information within the Epstein files, noting that much of what once seemed outlandish is now chillingly plausible:

  "The horror of the Epstein saga crime is that so much of what seems outlandish is actually quite believable." (00:58, Tara Brown)

• The hosts discuss how social media and conspiracy culture blur lines, making both real facts and wild stories easier to dismiss or believe:

  "We've become such a conspiracy driven culture that I think that makes things easier to dismiss actually as well when you don't like them." (03:07, Host)

• Acknowledgment that, while not all rumors (like "Pizzagate") are true, the existence of Epstein's powerful abuse network has been proved:

  "So I'm not saying Pizzagate happened... but the most important element of it has been proven true, hasn't it?" (03:26, Host)

2. Survivor Stories and The Grooming Process (04:28–09:08)

• Jennalisa Jones featured as a representative story: recruited at 14, lured from a poor background into Epstein’s world—parallels to many others:

  "Her neighborhood had trailer parks and very low socioeconomic families... Epstein was the other end of the spectrum." (04:48, Tara Brown)

• Epstein’s predatory methodology included:

  • Recruiting vulnerable girls (schools, malls, sports centers)
  • Offering small but crucial sums (e.g., $200 for massages)
  • Creating an emotional hook with promises of education or career advancement

  "The pull that he used was very clever and it robbed the women and girls of real choices, I think. Or it made them feel complicit." (08:01, Tara Brown)

• The mechanism of complicity: young victims were actively used to recruit others, often living with guilt later:

  "Some girls brought dozens of girls and they live with the guilt of that today." (08:58, Tara Brown)

3. Ghislaine Maxwell’s Role (09:08–13:42)

• Discussion of whether Epstein’s abuse began before Maxwell; evidence suggests yes, but her involvement significantly broadened the operation:

  "She made it much easier... Because she traded on her ability to earn the trust of the young women she approached." (09:59, Tara Brown)

• Maxwell’s “legitimacy”—her posh demeanor and accent—was a tool:

  "She was so posh... a British accent in the United States made even more posh... it felt safe, felt completely above board." (12:01, Tara Brown)

• Key revelatory moment with the unredacted email confirming the infamous photo of Virginia Giuffre, Prince Andrew, and Ghislaine:

  "What this photograph proved was that they were lying. Virginia was telling the truth all along." (12:55, Tara Brown)
  "It's just so sad that Virginia isn't around to see that." (13:42, Tara Brown)

4. The Money Trail: How Did Epstein Become So Powerful? (13:42–18:51)

• Epstein’s background: working-class Brooklyn, always driven for wealth and influence.

  "He had this ability to part those businessmen and investors from their money." (14:28, Tara Brown) "He starts out as a physics and maths teacher at Dalton, despite not having a college degree, no qualifications, he just scammed himself." (15:55, Tara Brown)

• His rise through elite contacts led to Wall Street access and eventual connection with Leslie Wexner (Victoria’s Secret), granting him financial power and legitimacy.

• The logic of his ascent is described stepwise, but even Brown finds the leap to such vast influence difficult to explain:

  "I guess the bit that I find difficult to comprehend is how those steps led to such wealth and such influence." (18:12, Tara Brown)

5. Blackmail, Extortion, and Elite Connections (18:51–22:05)

• Persistent theories about Epstein using blackmail/compromising material to control others are raised, but Brown states no concrete proof has emerged:

  "While that theory has been very popular, there doesn't yet seem to be any evidence of that." (19:14, Tara Brown)

  • There is only a hint regarding a possible Bill Gates affair.

• Much is speculated regarding Wexner’s role: tricked? Co-conspirator? Brown details how Epstein gained Wexner’s total trust as sole financial advisor, even power of attorney. US authorities at one point named Wexner a co-conspirator, but that led nowhere.

6. The Question of Epstein's Death (22:18–23:06)

• Brief and wry mention of Epstein's alleged suicide:

  "Diddy. Tara, diddy. We'll get... you don't have to answer that." (22:28, Host)

  • Brown notes Epstein’s brother disputes the suicide story.

• Family loyalty is highlighted—both Epstein’s and Maxwell’s families remain staunch defenders despite the overwhelming evidence.

7. Congressional Action and Redacted Files (24:01–28:41)

• Thomas Massie, US Congressman, emerges as an unlikely hero, co-authoring the Epstein Transparency Act to force the release of files:

  "His fight doesn't just stop at writing legislation... making sure that legislation is adhered to and bringing to account the Department of Justice." (24:35, Tara Brown)

• Controversial, frustrating redactions: key names hidden, including those who emailed Epstein with disturbing content. Victims (survivors) have often had their anonymity removed while powerful suspects remain protected:

  "We are talking about a major mess... there are some redactions that, if you search another way, it exposes who they are." (26:44, Tara Brown)

• The files themselves were sometimes delivered to the DOJ already redacted by the FBI; confusion and bureaucracy shield many alleged perpetrators.

8. Justice and Accountability: Ghislaine Convicted, Powerful Men Unscathed (28:41–30:21)

• Only Ghislaine Maxwell has been convicted; powerful men named in the files remain untouched. Internationally, there’s greater political fallout, particularly in the UK and Norway:

  "There is absolutely wide held acceptance that the consequences seem to be followed through outside of the United States." (29:29, Tara Brown)

• US businesses and individuals have lost positions, but few legal actions:

  "That doesn't mean the investigation should stop here." (30:21, Tara Brown)

9. Will the Story Fade or Persist? (30:21–33:32)

• Hope and realism about ongoing investigation; Brown is currently filming further stories, focusing on why early law enforcement attempts in Florida failed and how high-profile cases can fall through bureaucratic cracks.

• Survivors and public sentiment remain committed to truth, inspired in part by Virginia Giuffre’s legacy:

  "There is a real mood for this to be cleared up and sorted and for justice to prevail." (31:51, Tara Brown) "We don't want the vague, the vagueness to exist where there are people who have potentially committed terrible crimes getting away with it." (32:22, Tara Brown)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Tara Brown on truth vs. conspiracy:

  "The true horror is the stuff that's not made up of conspiracies but the allegations made by the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein." (03:51)

• On the recruitment of girls:

  “He would recruit girls from schools, from sporting centers, from anywhere where girls... They became part of that web that he created.” (05:34)

• On Maxwell’s impact:

  "She traded on her ability to earn the trust of the young women... she had this ability to make them feel beholden to her." (09:59)

• On the effect of Giuffre’s photo confirmation:

  “What this photograph proved was that they were lying. Virginia was telling the truth all along.” (12:55)

• On frustrating justice:

  "It just seems perverse to me that as we sit here today, the only person convicted of any crimes to do with this is a woman... It feels like there are a lot of very powerful men... who haven't faced court." (28:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:58 – Navigating overwhelming conspiracy and reality in the Epstein case
• 04:28 – Survivor recruitment: stories and mechanisms
• 09:08 – Ghislaine Maxwell’s role and influence
• 12:22 – Ghislaine confirms the Prince Andrew photo; impact on Giuffre’s legacy
• 14:28 – Epstein’s meteoric climb: from Brooklyn to billionaire
• 18:51 – Blackmail theories and the Leslie Wexner question
• 22:18 – Discussion of Epstein’s death and family responses
• 24:35 – Thomas Massie and the Transparency Act; ongoing fight for real accountability
• 25:52 – The continuing problem of redacted names and survivor exposure
• 28:41 – Global consequences: only Maxwell convicted, but Europe acts more aggressively
• 30:42 – The fight to keep the case alive; ongoing investigations
• 33:32 – Hints at next steps: failed law enforcement interventions early in the case

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Final Reflections

This episode offers a comprehensive, compassionate, and unsparing look at the Epstein case. Tara Brown brings clarity to the timeline, methods, and the chilling banality of the abuse, while also exposing the persistent reluctance of institutions to provide real justice. The international dimensions, psychological toll on survivors, and the systemic failure to hold powerful accomplices to account leave lingering questions and demand continued attention.

Virginia Giuffre’s memory haunts the conversation, a powerful reminder of why thorough investigation and public accountability are still urgently needed.

Transcript

[A]

The following podcast contains accounts of child sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. Tara Brown, senior reporter for 60 Minutes, joins us to unpack the Epstein files. We focus on her documentary, the Inside the Epstein Files, exploring the network and influence of Jeffrey Epstein, the experience of survivors and the fallout after his death. That documentary is available on nine now and also on Stan. In exciting news for us, this interview will also air nationally on our brand new KISS FM radio show. It's called True Crime Tonight and it's on every Sunday around Australia at 6pm this is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation.

[B]

I too felt completely overwhelmed by the information coming at us. And I don't want to make it sound like it's an explainer, but in a way that's what it evolved into. We certainly couldn't cover everything that had been dumped in the Epstein files, but it was just to try and get an understanding of it. And I was on that. I hate the phrase, but that journey myself, you know, it was like, what, what? And the horror of the Epstein saga crime is that so much of what seems outlandish is actually quite believable.

[A]

Right? Absolutely. My, my daughter is saying to me, she's 16 and gets all of her information from TikTok. And she's saying to me, you know, they killed children, they killed babies. And I'm saying, Darli, that they. No, I don't believe that. That's insane. That's crazy. And I still, I haven't seen any evidence to that. But I think there is a feeling of things that we thought couldn't be true have turned out to be true.

[B]

Well, that's right. I mean, right now in New Mexico, following a tip, there's allegations that there were two young girls who died during violent sex on, on Epstein's ranch, Zorro, it was called at that time. And that they were buried either near or on the ranch somewhere. I mean, that's a tip and that's an allegation. So it is yet to be verified or even investigated properly. But, you know, sadly, as your daughter's identified, that is not, perhaps not far from the truth. Obviously, it's yet to be investigated, but as you're identifying in the past, you'd go, that's ridiculous. And let's move on. And there is a lot of ridiculousness in this. I think there are lots of extraordinarily outlandish allegations and tips and that's Part of the issue with the Epsen files working through that. But the fact that there is a sense of possibility is something kind of new.

[A]

Well, more than one person has mentioned Pizzagate to me recently. The old conspiracy theory that the Clintons were involved in this high profile paedophile ring was run out of the basement of a pizza shop, which is a whole other detail. But I remember when I first read that thinking all of it is insane. And also we've become such a conspiracy driven culture that I think that makes things easier to dismiss actually as well when you don't like them. But now it feels like years later we know that there was a huge paedophile ring of important people, powerful people around the globe. So I'm not saying Pizzagate happened was true, but that the most important element of it has been proven true, hasn't it?

[B]

Well, that's right. But I think if you can remove yourself in some way from the more crazy conspiracies because the truth itself is terrible in a way. I get the point that understanding what is truth and what is a conspiracy theory is a very difficult thing to determine in this case. But I think the true horror is the stuff that's not made up of conspiracies but the allegations made by the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein you famously spoke

[A]

to spent a lot of time with Virginia Giuffre, who I never met, but I'm just brokenhearted for. And in this documentary you spend time with another survivor, Jennalissa. Jennalissa, tell me from your personal experience from survivors, victim survivors that you have met, what did happen?

[B]

Well, it's a, it's a story that is repeated over and over and is extraordinary for how similar it each account is. So Jennalisa Jones, who appeared in our special was a 14 year old girl from West Palm Beach. Wrong side of the tracks, certainly polar opposite ends of the world to the one inhabited by Jeffrey Epstein. Her neighborhood had trailer parks and very low socioeconomic families living there. He of course, was the other end

[A]

of the spectrum and the other end of the island of the town, isn't it? So it's one of those environments where people are living quite geographically close together but living in completely different worlds.

[B]

That's right. I think it was like 8-10km between where Jennalisa Jones grew up and lived and where Epstein had his mansion. That's a very short amount of distance, but as you say, completely different worlds. But it's one that Epstein mind. We discovered this with other victims as well. Courtney Wilde in other stories I've done for 60 Minutes as she tells a very similar story. He would recruit girls from schools, from sporting centers, from anywhere where girls shopping centers, anywhere. And they became part of that web that he created. And so the stories within that are very similar. Girls offered by friends, normally, you know, people they trusted to come and massage a weird old bloke for 200 bucks. All you have to do is massage him. I mean, 200 bucks for these girls was, you know, for many it was food, it was rent. You know, they came from very difficult families. In some cases, you know, mums and dads in jail or, you know, out to it because of drug addiction and they were looking after siblings or just themselves. So $200 was a lifeline and seemingly benign was the task. Just give this weird guy a bit of a massage and you'll be fine. And as soon as they were ensnared, then that was the process. They would go up to his massage room and massage him. He would invariably abuse them or assault them in some way. But they're also, also what was at play was a game of offering of sort of getting close emotionally in this process. So these girls would reveal their dreams. One might want to be a musician, one might want to be a professional masseuse, one might want to be a ballerina. And what Jeffrey Epstein dangled was that opportunity.

[A]

He had the means to do it, didn't he? He had the means to send some girls to university, to send them away on amazing trips and educational trips and things like that. And he did that for some girls.

[B]

He did and he offered the bait to many others and he always kept it alive. It was always something to come back for. And I don't know, you know, it's a very difficult thing to explain and I'm not the best person to explain it, but the pull that he used was very clever and it robbed the women and girls of real choices, I think. Or it made them feel complicit in what was going on.

[A]

That's interesting because it's not the first time I've read about or heard about a pedophile rings utilising victims, turning victims into co conspirators. And again, we're talking about very young people whose boundaries have already been torn down and saying to them, go and bring your friends over here and tell them I'll give them $200. And these young people don't understand that that's making them complicit in a crime.

[B]

Yes. And you know, some girls brought dozens of girls and they live with the Guilt of that today?

[A]

Yeah. When you're describing, you know, going over to Geoffrey's house to give him a massage. I've read Virginia's book, which is excellent, and it goes a long way to, I think, really humanising and explaining the psychology of how this can happen, how a young woman can find herself in this situation. But I have to visualise Ghislaine in that room, in the car, in the conversations, making those young women feel comfortable. Is there any evidence that Jeffrey was offending before he and Ghislaine teamed up together? Do you think this could have happened without her?

[B]

That's a good question, Michele, and I'd be lying if I knew the answer to that. I'm just trying to think of the dates, because there's some suggestions that he was abusing girls as early as 1985.

[A]

And I know there's conjecture about when he Engeln met, but I think that

[B]

was before they met. And certainly the tendencies to sort of be inappropriate around young women was evidenced by people at the school that he taught at in Dalton in New York City, an incredibly prestigious school. But the commentary from that was that he made people feel uncomfortable, students feel uncomfortable about his approach to the theme, particularly the young women. So, look, I think that Jeffrey Epstein was very capable of assaulting young women and he had a penchant for it, I think, well before Ghislaine Maxwell came on the scene. And he continued well after she left. So she made it much easier, is certainly what Virginia Giuffre told me, because. And the harm that she did, as you probably know, through Virginia's account, in some ways was greater, because she traded on her ability to earn the trust of the young women she approached. And in a way, she had this ability to make them feel beholden to her, that they didn't want to disappoint her. And that was a skill that she seemed to create this environment very quickly. And so Gillian Maxwell very much enhanced Jeffrey Epstein's ability to reach these girls. And she was a recruiter. She'd see girls in the park and she'd stop the car and race over and say, I know somebody who would like to make you a model. And a girl with braces on and 14 years old is taken to the mansion.

[A]

And that beautiful accent of Ghislaine's and her whole. The way she carried herself, I can understand how seductive that would have been for me at 14.

[B]

Well, it speaks of legitimacy, doesn't it? I mean, she was so posh and made more, you know, a British accent in the United States made even more posh than perhaps back at home for her. But, yeah, it was legitimate. It felt safe, felt completely above board.

[A]

I think one of the pieces of information that's sort of floated to the top in the Epstein files being made public is the email in which Ghislaine confirms that that photograph of Virginia and Prince Andrew and Ghislaine taken in her house in London is legit. After years of claiming that it wasn't. That, to me, just demonstrated her callousness. You know, I don't know why of all of her actions, but there's. Maybe it's because I'm so emotional about Virginia not being with us anymore, but that email to me was one of the biggies. How about for you?

[B]

Oh, it was huge. And I think I was kind of surprised and a bit disappointed that it didn't capture the headlines as I imagined it would. You know, the dispute about the photograph captured the headlines. The former Prince Andrew was, you know, was happy to call Virginia a liar, and so was Ghislaine Maxwell from an interview in jail. She said she knew she was lying. What this photograph proved was that they were lying. Virginia was telling the truth all along. In, you know, we now know, in Glenn's own words, she knew that that photograph was the real deal. I. Yeah, I find it. I mean, it's. It's just so sad that Virginia isn't around to see that.

[A]

That's my overwhelming feeling whenever there's a development. Certainly when there was the development with the former Prince Andrew when he was arrested, I just thought, oh, if only she could have held on to see this, would it have made a difference to her? You alluded to a few minutes ago, the difference in Jeffrey Epstein's life to those of the young women that he was preying upon. But his life wasn't always. He wasn't born into that, that money. One of the questions that sort of remains is how did he get there? How. How did he make it from a working class kid in Brooklyn to a billionaire? Do we really have an answer? I'm. I'm assuming the answer is Leslie Wexner. Basically.

[B]

Well, I think it started really back when Epstein was a kid living in Brooklyn, in Seagate. And what I mean by that is that he somehow was either born with or learned the tools of being able to take a lot of money from seemingly sophisticated investors and businessmen. He had this ability to. To part those businessmen and investors from their money. And so people, you know, the New York Times has done some great work on this. And what, you know, what they say they've uncovered is a man with an incredible, possibly an unrivaled ability to lie and driven to be wealthy. So in those, you know, as you identified, he came from kind of a working class background. He didn't go to any special schools or universities, but he had this drive to get out of that neighborhood and he had a drive to be rich, according to people who went to school with him, who overheard him saying, I'm going to be rich one day, filthy rich. They just never guessed that he would be so infamous or how he would make his money. And he set himself on a trajectory of making contacts. He seemed to understand that to get far in this world, in the world he wanted to be in, it came down to who you knew. And so he was very adept at making those connections and he was very adept at scamming and lying and selling himself as some sort of financial whiz. So he starts out as a physics and maths teacher at Dalton, despite not having a college degree, no qualifications, he just scammed himself.

[A]

And Dalton's a flash school. I looked up some of their alumni. Prudence Murdoch, Rupert's daughter, went there. It's a very prestigious school.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And I mean, he ended up getting kicked out because he didn't perform well enough. So they, they were onto him at some point. But he'd already made connections there with parents of his elite students and that catapulted him into Wall street and Bear Stearns. And he was revealed there too, for being a liar, but when confronted, admitted that, yes, he didn't have the two college degrees that he'd claimed. Yes, he'd lied, but he knew that if he'd been honest, he wouldn't be given a chance. And in that atmosphere, that was rewarded. He was given a second chance, but he kind of ruined the nest a bit there by overspending and abusing his expense account and allegations of being involved in insider trading or at least being investigated or questioned about it to begin with. But then again, that only kind of stopped him. They didn't get rid of him. They said, right, well, you've been a very naughty boy, so we're suggesting that you be suspended for a while and you get fined. And he goes, well, no, thanks, I'll just, you know, set up my own shop. And which he did, and then continued to work with Bear Stearns and lean on those connections he made.

[A]

This is what's great about the documentary, is this is a classic case of a question that I think Is in a lot of people's minds, how did he become a billionaire? But you've been able to say, kind of give us the steps. Okay, well, this, then that, then this, then that.

[B]

Yeah. I guess the bit that I find difficult to comprehend is how those steps led to such wealth and such influence.

[A]

Yes, we all do. Yeah.

[B]

And I guess that speaks to the craft of the person that he was able to. He just sort of seemed to have a play going on all the time, so.

[A]

Well, that was part of the Ghislaine relationship too, wasn't it? That she. He knew right from the beginning that she would be able to introduce him to a whole other world of important people. Royalty and all sorts of people that she had in her world from England.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And how does that then play into the. Again, is this a theory or is this fact? Do we know. Is there any evidence that he was extorting people? That he was befriending people, either getting secrets from them or actually filming and recording them in awkward scenarios and then blackmailing them? Is that a fact or is that another theory?

[B]

Well, it's a theory at this point. And in fact, while that theory has been very popular, there doesn't yet seem to be any evidence of that. Certainly, sex trafficking ring. Yes, but in terms of blackmailing influential people, I don't know that you can say it didn't happen, but so far there's no evidence it did. Though there was a hint of blackmailing of Bill Gates around an affair. An alleged affair. So there seemed to be a tendency. But maybe it was more about calling in favors. I'm not. I really don't know.

[A]

That's one of the theories around the Wexner money, isn't it? That somehow, through some scenario, he's extorted money out of Wexner, the founder of Victoria's Secret. Was Jeffrey stealing from him? Or was. Was Wexner a co conspirator? Was there an arrangement between them? How did so much of Wexner's money end up in Jeffrey's possession?

[B]

Well, I think the. I think it starts again. It's. It's. Has parallels with how he was able to sexually abuse so many young people. That. That. Because I think the relationship with Les Wexner to begin with was. Was one of trust and friendship. And Jeffrey Epstein sold himself as a financial whiz. He sort of had this mantra where he was the only guy who knew what was going on and he could find all those missing assets that your other advisors have lost, that he could bring something New. And I think as a businessman, Les Wexner was very attracted to that. And. And again, Jeffrey Epstein was very good at selling himself. And so we have a situation where Epstein becomes pretty much Liz Wixon's sole financial advisor and he is given power of attorney, which means that he can make lots of financial decisions on Liz Wexner's part. Now, in 2019, Les Wexner claims that he was tricked by Jeffrey Epstein, that he'd been lied to, that Epstein had stolen lots of money from him, and that it was a terrible mistake. But we've also learned from the Epstein files that Liz Wexner had been named as a co conspirator by the FBI and the Department of Justice. What we don't know is why that went nowhere, and that's yet to be determined. But, you know, so he was named,

[A]

he's been questioned, and by 2019, it's interesting that that's when he came forward to denounce Epstein, because by that stage, Epstein was on the nose again, very much under investigation again. Good time to distance yourself.

[B]

Yeah, that's when Epstein was, you know, arrested in New Jersey and. And a month later, you know, killed himself.

[A]

Diddy. Tara Diddy. We'll get. You don't have to answer that.

[B]

His brother says no. His brother says no.

[A]

His brother says a lot of what? A lot of interesting stuff. He's an interesting cat, his brother, isn't he? And in the video, you're in the. In the documentary, you're on the phone to him, and I found the dissonance really interesting that he is saying to you, I only want to talk about my brother's death. I mean, you know, somehow he's. He's compartmentalizing and he doesn't want to talk about all the other terrible. He says, my brother did some terrible things, but he's still my brother. And Ghislaine's family similarly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Very staunchly in support of her, aren't they?

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. They, you know, they believe that she's been wrongly convicted and fighting for her release. And, yeah, they stand by her completely. Mark Epstein, interestingly, that he won't go on camera. He was happy to talk to us for a short time on the phone. And he does accept that his brother did wrong things by having underage sex or sex with minors, but that he was a, you know, that he was an interesting guy. I mean, that was a response to my question, you know, do you think he was a good person? You know, he did. He did wrong, but he was an Interesting guy.

[A]

Tell us about Thomas Massie. This was the ray of light, I think, in the documentary. Again, I wasn't aware of it felt to me like the Trump government had sort of stifled a lot of, you know, real work on these Epstein files. And then you introduced us to a fellow I was not expecting, a Republican congressman from Kentucky who is, seems to be the spearhead of the fight to keep the files in the news, to actually bring about some real resolution to this situation. Tell us about him.

[B]

Yeah, so Thomas Massey is the co author of the Epstein Transparency Act. And so effectively he and a Democrat congressman made sure that these Epstein files were released. And that's what the act essentially and in a very simple way does. So he was saying there are all these files and they need to be released. It was a promise made by Donald Trump to do so. And Thomas Massey has made Shaw and is fighting for them to be released. And his fight doesn't just stop at writing legislation, which is what happened, but making sure that that legislation is adhered to and is really bringing to account the Department of Justice for basically hiding the names of potential co conspirators and revealing the names of many of the survivors who wish to remain anonymous. So you have this, as you'd be aware, this terrible situation where the victims in this case are being exposed and the people accused of hurting them beyond Jeffrey Epstein remain protected. So the fight for Thomas Massie goes on.

[A]

You've just led us into a good area which is the redaction of names in the files. I think when they said we're going to release the Epstein files, I assumed there was going to be a lot more, that people's names were just going to start falling from the sky. And yet we see so many files redacted and most importantly the names of people who are sending emails to Jeffrey and whom he is replying to. And there are some really disturbing, some classics that are all over the Internet. Someone writes him an email saying, I loved the torture video, but we don't know who that email is from. Someone wrote one saying, thank you for a fun night. Your littlest girl was a little naughty. And again, we don't know who sent that email. And it's incredibly frustrating. What do you think is the way forward here? Are we ever going to ever gonna expose those people? What needs to happen for that to happen?

[B]

Yeah. So I mean, Thomas Massie and his supporters are pushing for those names to be revealed and they say that in some cases they do know who those people are. The defense of not revealing Their names. In some instances it's. Well, in the case of the naughty one, the suggestion is that that was actually written by a woman, which does not mean that that is not a co conspirator. But in somehow in this very confusing way they've just automatically redacted the author of that email. So, you know, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be sorted out and there's a lot of stuff that's sort of happened in confusion and mess and you know, there's some redactions that if you search another way it exposes who they are. We were talking about a major mess, but yeah, and I don't know if it'll ever be sorted out. But some of the difficulty also is that the files have arrived at the Department of Justice already redacted. So there are redactions that, that were made by the FBI and that's how they are. And Thomas Massey is calling for those redactions to be removed. And then there are redactions made by the Department of Justice. And it does seem that there are in some cases there are good reasons for that. In other reasons it's confounding. And that's the biggest complaint, I think, from the survivors, as I said, is that, is that they felt exposed yet again and at risk yet again. And that the interest in prosecuting the people accused of hurting them just doesn't seem to be followed through even by the most simple procedure of revealing who they are.

[A]

And it just seems perverse to me that as we sit here today, the only person convicted of any crimes to do with this is a woman is Ghislaine Maxwell. And I know she deserves to be convicted and she's a terrible woman, but it feels like there's a lot of very powerful men whose names have been connected with this story who haven't faced court. Although is there people seem to think Americans are saying, hang on a minute, how come the Brits have started arresting people and we haven't? Do you think there is more of an appetite for it in other countries? I've got the list of. And you again in the documentary sort of talk about the people who have faced consequences around the world, who've lost jobs, lost titles, all sorts of things. Is it the Prime Minister of Norway or somebody? I should say the former Prime Minister of Norway, Thorben Yaglund.

[B]

Yes. And the Crown Princess of Norway. No, I think you're right. There is absolutely wide held acceptance that the consequences seem to be followed through outside of the United States. So yes, certainly in the United Kingdom with the biggest scalp of all in terms of the arrest of the former Prince Andrew. Yeah, I mean, there are people in the States who are losing businesses too, because of their connections with Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, they're all very quick to say, just because you are friends doesn't mean you were involved in illegal activity. And of course that is true, but that doesn't mean that the investigation should stop here.

[A]

Well, tell me if your investigation's stopping here. I think I know the answer to that question, but I know that, you know, there is a concern that with the various wars and cost of living crises and things going on in the world, that this will eventually slip from the headlines and slip from the public consciousness and it'll just go away. Are you, you know, you still on it this week?

[B]

I'm currently filming a story on it, so yes, I am. And, you know, to that point, if you do look to the United Kingdom, for instance, the investigations into the former Prince Andrew are continuing. And, you know, so there, there are legal avenues that are being pursued. Where they end up, we're yet to see. But I accept that there are big headlines at the moment around the world and they don't involve the Epstein saga. But I know that people like Thomas Massie and his supporters say this will continue the way the act is written, it goes to the next Attorney General, whoever the next Attorney General is, they have to deal with it. There is a legal requirement to do so. So I don't know, I don't know the answer to your question, but there seems, you know, we're still interested in pursuing it. There seems to be a lot of stories still to be told. There's still a lot of files to be released and there's still a lot of consequences to be seen. And I think Virginia Giuffre, who, you know, this story for us at 60 Minutes started with Virginia in 2019, but the impact that she has had, not just from that time, but from the release of her memoir, as you cited earlier, I think has just affected the mood. I think people are heartbroken for her. And as they've seen her allegations come to something, further allegations and illegal action, then there is a real mood for this to be cleared up and sorted and for justice to prevail. And for those who, you know, I think we want investigations, don't we? We don't want to know. We don't want the vague, the vagueness to exist where there are people who have potentially committed terrible crimes getting away with it. The really sad thing about this story in my mind is that Epstein exposed himself very early on, and law enforcement in Florida were trying their best to. To nab this guy. And if they'd nabbed him, he'd be in jail today or dead a lot earlier, a lot sooner, without having ruined the lives of so many more. And so the story that we're looking at next is, how did that happen? There was a will by law enforcement, that investigation was taken over at a federal level, and that investigation stopped.

[A]

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[B]

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