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- [00:03]
A
This is Australian True Crime International with Michelle Laurie. One of the biggest crime stories in recent memory is the 2022 murder of four college students in the small town of Moscow, Idaho. Ethan Chapin was 20. Zana Kernodle was also 20. Kaylee Goncalves, 21, and Madison Mogan, also 21. They became known as the Idaho Four for their friends and families. Their violent deaths were literally unbeliev. Unbelievable. They didn't seem to have an enemy between them. In December of 2022, six weeks after the murders, criminology student Brian Kohberger was arrested and charged. Last year, he pled guilty to all four murders. But to this day, no one knows how he chose the victims, whether or not he'd ever met any of them, which one was his actual target, or how he seemed to know the layout of the house. Kaylee Goncalves family have always been very vocal. Recently, they channeled their anguish into setting up a foundation in Cayleigh's honour called Murder Has a Name and it has a very practical mission. Caylee's mother, Kristi Goncalves, and foundation board member Tracey Brocco, joined me recently on what would have been Caylee's 25th birthday to talk about the case and the foundation. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung, People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [01:39]
B
Life is full of distractions like this clarinet solo. But you don't have to put up with distractions in your photos. With distraction removal, Adobe Photoshop can automatically delete unwanted elements like wires and people. We're working on the clarinet. Try it@photoshop.com well, today, you know, we all kind of went about our normal day. You know, people had to work. And so in the past, we've kind of taken it off and stayed together, but this year it just didn't work out that way. So I was. I was here by myself for the most of the day and, you know, I was just able to really just reflect on Kaylee's birthday and, you know, think about her. And not that I don't always think about her, but really think about what we're really missing. You know, it's hard not to notice it every day, but then, you know, you sit here and think, you know, what would she be doing here, you know, four years? Well, it's her fourth birthday that she has not been here, so. So what would she be doing now? Where would she be? Would she be married? You know, and I, I, I thought, you know, I, I, I don't think that she would have kids. Not sure she'd be married. I think that she would be like, knee deep into her job, really, just trying to climb that ladder, that corporate ladder, just to get as high as she could before, you know, she had goals, you know, so she was very goal orientated. So I think that that's what she would be doing, you know, right now.
- [03:19]
C
So.
- [03:20]
A
And we'll get to what you are doing right now, which is huge. And joining us also is Traci Brocco. Tracie, you are part of this Murder has a Name project. Can you tell us how you met the family? Are you an old friend or how has this worked out?
- [03:39]
C
I am not an old friend, although it does seem like I am at this point. I just got interested in the case like everyone else did, and I just wanted to start reaching out to Kristi just with notes just to let her know that somebody was thinking about her. And over time, I would say it was probably a year that I was sending cards and just gifts, just thinking about Kaylee and the family. And she just texted me back one day and said, you know, can we talk? And I thought, yeah, absolutely. And I basically just said to her, can we, would you think about starting a foundation for her? I mean, I just, I didn't want her remembered for that awful day in Idaho. She was worth more than that. Her family's worth more, and she deserved more than that.
- [04:25]
A
That is the challenge, isn't it? That is the challenge in a situation like yours is that you have certainly spent a lot of time and energy bringing attention to the case. And in your own way, Christy, the family has. But at the same time, you don't want that to be the only memory we have of Kayleigh or the other kids.
- [04:45]
B
No. And it's, you know, it's hard to avoid, it's hard to change that narrative to something else, you know, you know, they just, they've got this, you know, they're dubbed the Idaho 4, and it's hard to, to unattach that from them. You know, his name is attached to them, you know, the murders. And unfortunately, I don't think that we'll ever be able to unattach that. But, you know, we, we, we do our best to, you know, make it an initiative to not talk about what happened to Kaylee. Although the foundation is, that is the reason why their foundation is where we're, where we're at and where we're doing what we're doing. But it is for Kaylee's legacy, you know, it is to remember her for the person that she was, you know, the. Not the victim that she unfortunately was. And having her life taken in such a horrible manner, the way that she
- [05:49]
A
lost her life was so. It was quick. I mean, the thing is, this was a young woman who had an entire life before that of many, many, many things, many achievements, many thoughts, many hopes, dreams, many moments. And those couple of short moments, you know, we don't want those to be all that her life is remembered for, do we?
- [06:13]
B
No. And, you know, as her mother, it's very hard for me not to think about those last moments, you know, what she was thinking, what she endured, you know, the fact that she was probably very confused, probably extremely scared, terrified, and I hate that. But as her mother and as a lot of mothers out there that know of the case, I think that that will always be something that haunts them. With this case, you know, it's terrifying that someone can actually do this to another human being and intentionally, willfully, you know, enter somebody's house with the intent to murder them.
- [07:11]
A
And all four families had raised by that stage, really pretty great kids. Pretty great, smart, kind, motivated, ambitious kids. And Ethan Chapin's family, his parents talked about having that feeling a week before the kids died that they sort of looked at each other and said, we've done it. We've got them through childhood. Here they are, they're all at college, and phew, we can relate to. Yeah, I think that's also the feeling that a lot of us parents can relate to, is feeling like you've done your job at some point and you have to trust that you've done it and you have to let them go and spread their wings.
- [07:50]
B
Yeah, you know, you do.
- [07:52]
A
Tracey, your. Your bio on the website says that you have a background in law enforcement. What is that background?
- [07:58]
C
I started in corrections and eventually went back to the police academy and went back out onto the road as an officer, so I finished up there.
- [08:08]
A
What do you make of the group of people? I don't know how large this group is, but they're certainly vocal of people who defend this offender. I gather you don't like to use his name. Is that correct, Christy? Yeah. So there's a name for them that includes his name that I won't use, but yeah. This growing or this group of people who defend him somehow, what grounds do they defend him on? Given that he pled guilty to the crimes. And obviously the evidence is overwhelming. What do you know about this crowd?
- [08:41]
C
It's constantly conspiracy theories over and over again. These people are guessing and making assumptions that they know nothing about. They have not been in the legal system or the justice system. If for one second his attorneys thought he was innocent, they would have never allowed him to plead guilty, let alone four times pleading guilty. And what I don't understand is the attacks that are on the family and the families. I don't understand it. Wouldn't you have a beef with the prosecutor or the defense attorney or his team? Why is it having to go to these families? Why must they get beaten time and time again over the head with these conspiracy theories? If you have a problem, direct it towards the justice system. If you have a problem directed towards his attorneys, his family, those are the people that are responsible for him. Not Kaylee's family and not the other kid's family. They owe him nothing.
- [09:34]
A
And neither have you been directly involved in his incarceration or anything like that. I mean, this is a. If anything, we hear this time and time again that the court system sort of alienates victims families a bit because they're kept to the side of the entire process, the investigation and the court case. So it is. I don't even can't even think of the word to describe it. To discover that you as a family, Christie, receive abuse from people about this
- [10:03]
B
case, it's straight harassment. I mean, it is straight harassment what we get. And, you know, I'm really good about turning it off and just staying away, but then something sparks it, and I'm down that rabbit hole, and it just eats me alive, you know, and I'll get back into it for like a week. And I'm just like, you know, like a. Like a raging little animal. And. And my friends are like, wait a minute, you gotta stop. You gotta stop. You know, you gotta stay off. And. And. And then I do, and I'm a much better person not letting that space, you know, be taken up in my own. On my own head, you know, I
- [10:40]
A
mean, I say that about myself because just as a performer, you get a lot of negative whatever on social media and stuff. But in your situation, it is really unfathomable that a stranger on the Internet could be cruel to you, isn't it?
- [10:58]
B
I. I can't even imagine what type of person that. Because, you know, we have publicly lost our daughter, and everything around what happened to her has became public, and it is absolutely horrible. The details have come out. What happened to all the kids. Matter of fact, just Friday, the official autopsy reports were released. So everybody's having a huge heyday with those, you know, and they think they're fun to put little AI figures up of Kaylee and. And show all her wounds and show all of, you know, her. Her facial damage and. And just damage to her body, and then. Then attack us and say, you didn't love your daughter, because if you loved your daughter, you would be fighting for justice for her. You know, and we feel that 100% the right person is incarcerated. We feel that 100% he acted alone. He didn't have anybody else with him. It was him and him alone. 100%. It's not even like 99%. We are 100% sure. And so to have people saying, we're defending your child and you're not, I mean, it just is like.
- [12:17]
A
It's insane. It's insane. It's insanity.
- [12:20]
B
Yeah.
- [12:21]
A
And because the other thing that's been. Well, the other things that have been made very public are the results of the investigation. And you're right. Anybody can see how authorities got to where they got to with this guy, and we can all see the evidence against him. So it's really willful to try and find a way to disbelieve it when he pled guilty. There's always a conversation around, oh, this is better for the family, because we don't want to put them through a trial. But do you feel that, or do you feel that you lost something in not going to trial?
- [12:55]
B
We absolutely feel that we lost a lot not going to trial. We were. Our family was prepared. We had rented a house in that area, which is six hours away from home for the three months. They said it was going to be about three months. And we were ready to go. We were ready to pack up, and we were ready to go down there. And we understood the process was going to be brutal. Um, we understood there are days that we wouldn't go to court. We also knew there was going to be scheduling orders. So we knew that certain things are going to be talked about on certain days. So we would be like, you know, what, Tuesday we're not going in. They're talking about autopsy resorts. Wednesday, we're not going in. You know, so we weren't. You know, we knew when, what and what we could handle. Or we knew we could also get up and walk out at certain points. You know, so now is. What's happened is instead of it all being over, all being out, seeing the defense argue with the state, you Know, the experts against the experts battle it out right there in the court system through a three month trial. Now it's been almost a year because all the information comes out. It still comes out, but it's trickled out. So it's just constant salt in the wound. Salt in the wound. Salt in the wound. And you'll read and it won't come out with the defense and the state. It will all be defense stuff. Defense. The defense experts all said this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, as you know, the defense has a totally different. They're going to paint this in a totally different picture as the expert or as the state. So when you have them up right there against each other but going back and forth in court, you could keep track of that.
- [14:31]
A
And also it can be debunked and it can be debated and you know, that's the purpose of a trial. But now in everyone being able to release whatever they want to release whenever they want to release it, there's no debate.
- [14:44]
B
It just trickled out and they are releasing everything backwards. So they started in 2025 and I'm pretty sure they haven't even got to 2024 yet. And it's just been this almost a year now. July will be a year of just little pieces. So we just wake up. We don't get any notification. We just wake up like last Friday. And our children's all chaps for results were nothing redacted. There was no photos, but nothing at all in there. And it's very, very private information. Yeah. You know, and I just don't think that some of it was anybody's business
- [15:25]
A
or of benefit of benefit to anyone or anything.
- [15:29]
C
Although they'll argue that it is.
- [15:31]
A
How will they argue that, Tracy, what's the argument pro releasing autopsy results four years after these kids have been killed?
- [15:39]
C
Well, I guess the public feels they have the right to know. And I can understand you wanting to be involved in it somewhat, but there has to be a line somewhere. I mean, how would somebody like it if I showed up at the hospital while you were having a baby and demanded to know what your baby's name was, how much it weighed? Was it a boy or a girl? Where are you guys going to live? And then could you imagine years later having somebody demand to see pictures of your daughter's body that has been desecrated by somebody? I mean, it was brutal what happened to her. And people say, well, her family doesn't have to look on the Internet. How, tell me how you don't look on the Internet these days. How do you not open up a. A page on Facebook or something? And tell me how they don't see that. Tell me how you don't see a picture of her footprints on there from the coroner's office. I just ran across it today.
- [16:29]
A
What is.
- [16:29]
C
What are the chances of that? Pretty damn high. And they have to see this day in and day out and read in verbatim in detail about what happened to their daughter. It's not anybody's damn business. At some point you need to put a stop to it and it's not
- [16:43]
A
of benefit to anybody. It's not. It is not a benefit benefit me to know about Kaylee's injuries. How does it help me in any way as a member of the public?
- [16:52]
C
And they're just breeding for future. There is some sicko out there that is just like him that is reading this line by line. And they are enjoying it. They're enjoying the fame. They're enjoying what they see on TikTok. They're enjoying what could be. And it's pushing them one more step to do that in their own life, giving them one more positivity, like, wow, look what I could get. Look at the fame I could get.
- [17:12]
A
Oh, absolutely.
- [17:13]
C
And what they're doing, they're creating the next one.
- [17:14]
A
Anyone who is motivated that way, who has had those fantasies would be feeding off this scenario. The offender also, we're led to believe, has people sending him money for commissary in jail and all sorts of this. So lots of support from the outside. The offender was. Was apparently obsessed with serial killers, was studying criminology, was doing a specific course about serial killers. I guess the other thing about there being no trial is there are so many questions. Are these questions important to you, Christy, or just to me as a busybody true crime person? The questions about how did he choose the girls? How did he. Why, why, why, why, why?
- [17:56]
B
Every single question drives me crazy. Yeah, Every single question. And, you know, like, I talked to some of the other families, you know, and. And they're like, I don't care. It doesn't matter. None of it's going to bring. So there are different aspects, you know, because there are different. There's four different families.
- [18:14]
A
Yeah, we all cope differently.
- [18:16]
B
Yeah, she tells me, you know, I don't. I don't read any of it. I don't listen to know any of it. She says she. She doesn't do the Internet and she doesn't watch the news. That's hard. I have Two younger daughters. So, you know, I, I, I, I feel like I kind of got to be aware of what's swirling out there and be like, hey, I just want to let you know this came out today, you know, so I don't want you to be totally caught off guard when you see this is going to be the next thing they're starting to talk about. So some people are able to, yes,
- [18:49]
A
you have to shepherd your family through these things. And as a mother, we all know that you kind of put yourself last. The first thing you do is check everyone else. How's everyone else going with this? Before you have a quiet moment in the shower or something like that to yourself.
- [19:03]
B
Yeah. You know, but there's nothing that I don't want to know. I mean, I want to know everything that happened to Kaylee. I do want to know that. But like I said, I think some of that is very private. And I think that Kaylee wouldn't want the whole world to know, you know, all of this stuff.
- [19:24]
A
None of us do. You know, you realize I wrote a book about the mortuary and about forensic pathology and autopsies, and it made me realize it's personal. Your death is the most personal moment of your life and who's there and what, you know, they talk about people with terminal illnesses, not wanting to die in front of other people and all these sorts, things, of, of things. And you realized, yeah, it's, it's the most personal thing there is and it doesn't need to be shared with us for no reason.
- [19:52]
B
Yes. Yeah, I was actually watching something on that today. Terminally ill people that, you know. Yeah. That. It was some little blurp that was on YouTube or something. So, so, yeah, you know, they, they don't want people to see that, you know, their loved ones, you know, wait
- [20:09]
A
till they go to the bathroom or wait till they go and get a coffee or something and then, and then pass away.
- [20:14]
B
So for, you know, Kaylee to be like, my clothes were stripped off of me. I was, you know, cut from here to here to open me up, you know, it's a lot.
- [20:26]
C
I'm sure the last thing she would want, too, is her parents to have to go through what they're going through in her, in her siblings.
- [20:31]
A
Yeah.
- [20:31]
C
And her family. I mean, if she could see the hurt in her mother every day like I do, she wouldn't want that either. I mean, all it is, is torturous to them.
- [20:42]
A
This conversation's reminding me of your daughter Olivia's victim impact statement, which was something for the Ages. It was incredible. It was incredibly brave. Smart, but it was. Sort of felt like everything we all wanted to say to this guy. And she talked about Kayleigh in a way that was fantastic, I thought, because she. Well, her exact words were, you know, the only reason this worked is because you attacked her when she was a scientist. Sleep. Because if she'd been awake, she'd have kicked the shit out of you. And I loved that. I'm getting shivers thinking about it, because to me, and I never met Kaylee, but I thought, that's the real Kaylee coming through. That's someone who. Who knew this girl so well, was her sister. That's what Kayleigh, I think, would want us to know of her. Don't you think?
- [21:32]
B
Yeah. And it's the truth. I mean, if Kaylee was not, you know, pretty much trapped in that bed, because the way the room was set up, you know, Maddie's on this side, Keely's on this side. So she's against the wall, and the headboard was the wall. This room is tiny. Tiny. You know, she couldn't have got out. You know, but if she was able to get up, she was able to get on her feet or she was attacked on her feet or something. I mean, I'm not saying that he still wouldn't have, you know, taken her life, but she would have gave one hell of a fight.
- [22:06]
A
Well, I think they all would have. I think they proved that. Janna proved that.
- [22:10]
B
Absolutely.
- [22:11]
A
Do you theorize about those questions that we mentioned earlier, about how he found them, why he found them? I mean, do you. Do you and your husband Steve, spend nights talking and theorizing about that stuff? Or do you try not to think about questions you can't answer?
- [22:28]
B
Almost every day? Yeah, almost every single day we have that conversation. Almost every single day we talk about what? About this. What do you think it was? This? You think it was that? No, I was, you know, like, we, you know, and we've talked to the investigators, and the investigators have told us that, you know, they are pretty sure that it was either Kaylee or Maddie. They just. They don't know which one. They said, you know, some days, Christy, we were like, it was definitely Kaylee, you know, and then other days they say, you know, no, you know, it was definitely Maddie. So they said that will always be their biggest, you know, like, who was it? Which one? And apparently they don't. They don't have that information. But we go back the same way. You know, was it Kaylee? Was it Maddie? Was it Haley? Was it Maddie? And it wouldn't matter to us say that it was Maddie. You know. You know, we would not put any blame there. Like, if we found out 100% it was Maddie, he was after Maddie. Kaylee just was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It wouldn't, it wouldn't change. You know, we wouldn't get angry at Maddie or anything else. You know, he was an animal. He was a murderer.
- [23:39]
A
You know, there's benefit in knowing for, for the rest of the community, for science, for things like the behavioral unit at the FBI, the profilers. You know, we know that most recently, Rex Heuermann, the Long island serial killer, got a plea bargain in his trial. He also pled guilty eventually, but part of that was agreeing to speak to the FBI behavioralists.
- [24:01]
B
Hmm. That wasn't.
- [24:02]
A
You weren't aware of that because there was a lot of conversation at that time about the offender in your case, about saying, well, hang on. Why didn't they pursue that line in this case? So that all of these questions to force him to answer some questions, because I know that's part of the foundation, isn't it? There's an idea that offenders should have to speak at trial.
- [24:24]
B
I mean, I, I, I, I don't see how they could get a plea deal without giving some information. Like, that's why you get a plea deal. You don't just get a plea deal because, you know, hey, you, you know, you're an okay guy, and we're just going to give you a plea deal. I mean, you just murdered four kids in their beds.
- [24:42]
C
Well, that's where the trust in the justice system came in, and it failed them.
- [24:46]
A
That's what I mean, the relief that there's no trial. Which means it's good for economics, for the justice system. It's good for the whole look of the thing that we've got a conviction.
- [24:55]
B
No, you know, appeals and, you know, I get that. But we are left without answers that, personally, for myself, will torment me for the rest of my life, or until maybe one time he does a jailhouse interview. Who knows? I mean, I, I have hopes that maybe, probably not anytime soon, but eventually, you know, he might get to a place where he says, okay, you know, I'll talk, whether he can believe him or not. Who knows? Maybe he, maybe he dies with it. I don't know. But I do hold out hope that maybe he will and it will make sense, and we will, you know, say, you know, what that makes sense and not make sense. There's nothing to make sense. Of why he murdered them. But his thought process, like, somewhat makes sense, like, you know, you know, why he went in there, when he started following, you know, when, when was the beginning of the end? You know, was it, you know, I saw Kaylee one day in early June. She was walking the dog. I wound up just kind of following her home. And it was born, my idea was born. Like, what? And I know I shouldn't, I know I shouldn't let it. And sometimes it's better, but it's never far. It's always right here, you know, just sitting right on my shoulder. Just.
- [26:24]
C
I wish his parents would encourage him to do it.
- [26:26]
B
Yeah, I do, too.
- [26:27]
C
Why are his parents not encouraging him to listen? You have done this. You have pled guilty to it. At least give them this. At least give them this. I mean, if it was my son, God forbid I would be there every day saying, you owe them this. You do something good out of this. Give them something that they need. But everyone's just silent. And yet they come after this family. It's just, it's mind blowing to me.
- [26:52]
A
Have his family ever made any statements toward you, any statements of apology, any reached out in any way like that?
- [27:01]
B
There was a statement when he was arrested back in 2022, the end of 2022, that they released a statement and they said, you know, our, our hearts go out to the families, but at this point, we're standing besides our son and we're going to let the justice system, you know, do their job. And so it was a, we're sorry for what happened to your family. But, but yeah, I know it was just very generic, but I'm assuming they
- [27:30]
A
are under a lot of advice, a lot of legal advice constantly about every move. So it's hard to know their, their real motivations, what they would like to do, what they would like to say, isn't it?
- [27:40]
B
I think if I had an attorney telling me no, I'd say, why? Why? Like, what's the reason why? Like, you know, I, I, I want them to have answers.
- [27:51]
A
Let's talk about the Foundation. Murder has a name. It is. What's great about it is it's got a very clear mission statement, and it's about helping people in very specific ways. Can you talk us through it, Tracy?
- [28:06]
C
Murder has a Name was born, obviously, from this. We definitely want to carry on Kaylee's legacy, and we want her to be able to help people. And we figured the best way to help people was to help give victims like Christy and Steve were at a time with no answers to help give answers to people that need them. So it will be where police can come, law enforcement can come and fill out an application, which we haven't gotten that on there yet. We've been focusing on fundraising because these are expensive tests and law enforcement can come and fill out applications. And with DNA companies that we work with, once they get a quote from that DNA company, we will agree to pay for these tests that there are no funding for, which is extremely important. I mean, you have rape kits that sit on shelves for too long, means the offender's just out there reoffending.
- [28:53]
A
I was just explaining what you do to someone here in the office before we chatted, and they said to me, what. What do you mean? Why aren't police. What sort of tests aren't just tested by police? I think from our Australian perspective, we assume that these tests, the cost of them is not prohibitive. If they're helpful in a case, they just get done well.
- [29:13]
C
But there's some that end up being cold cases that, you know, unfortunately, you know, crime scenes and crimes happen over and over and over again until it's just a backlog.
- [29:22]
A
Yeah.
- [29:22]
C
And sometimes some of these have to sit when there's been nothing that is gathered from it and you have to go on to the next one, and it's hard to go back to that one. And you. You need funds for it. You know, you're paying for what. What is up front right now, but you also need to pay for the ones that have been set on the shelves that did not have evidence at the time that may or may not have it now. You know, police, they're very busy and they have a ton of cases. That's not just one case per detective, it's several cases. So it gets backlogged.
- [29:53]
A
And also, we know technology moves on constantly. So even now, most recently, they've had a breakthrough where they don't need the root of a hair anymore to get DNA. They can potentially do that.
- [30:02]
C
I think Christy and I are baffled when we sit here with these DNA companies, and I'm thinking to myself, why doesn't a police department, a local police department have this? Why is this not the front line rather than the last line? I mean, it's mystifying to me. This would save so many lives if this was the first line of defense.
- [30:21]
A
And Kristi, I read that Kaylee was a True Crime fan, that the two of you used to watch True Crime together.
- [30:28]
B
We did.
- [30:29]
A
And so this makes sense to you to be able to contribute in this way. Is that right?
- [30:36]
B
It does. And when, you know. Cause we went through a lot of different things, like, what are we going to do? We want to do a foundation, but it takes time. You know, what is that going to be? So somehow the murder has a name, started being tossed around. And the more I thought about it, you know, I was scared because it is expensive. So I was like, oh, my gosh, you know, this is going to be, you know, we're going to have to do a lot of fundraising for this to happen. But I was like, this is exactly what Kaylee would have wanted for us to get these answers. So what happens is our local law enforcement, most of them are extremely underfunded, so they have what is called codis, and there's certain levels of codis, and they run it through codis, which is previous offenders, violent crimes that are in there, they get no match.
- [31:39]
A
So they so it. So they take DNA from every violent criminal. Everyone who's convicted of a violent crime has to give a DNA sample. Right. And that goes on this database called codis.
- [31:50]
B
Yes, but we have actually found out that a lot of times the police don't even have time to put. To upload that to codis.
- [31:58]
A
Oh, no.
- [32:00]
B
So. So Joe Schmoes was a violent offender and things just got, you know, inundated
- [32:07]
C
and he got released before the DNA was taken from him. It's just, you know, there's a lot of things that can happen circumstantially that are out of obviously law enforcement control too, because it's just a turning page. You know, obviously crime is. It's just quick happening.
- [32:23]
A
It's a brilliant system when it works. So you're also dedicated to helping it work, essentially.
- [32:28]
B
So they don't find this person in codis. You know, it kind of draws pretty slow for them. They're kind of like. And some do have some local labs that they could go to. Most don't. So then you're looking at a private lab, and for the most part, they don't pay for the private lab. And that's what we work with, is the private labs.
- [32:49]
A
How much does it cost if I have. If I was sexually assaulted however many years ago, and I know my rape kit is sitting on the shelf? How much does it cost to have that assessed in a private lab?
- [33:00]
B
Well, it would. It would depend on how many pieces of evidence they are testing.
- [33:05]
C
But it depends too, on the lab. They each have different price ranges. So it's like a menu of the. I say menu, but, you know, for. For lack of words of what they. They charge.
- [33:15]
A
We're talking thousands, I would assume.
- [33:18]
C
Well, we were told in the beginning it was anywhere from 7,000 to $10,000 to carry a case all the way through, but that's not. I believe. I believe we're still learning as we go, too. I believe that's not. If you have to retest something or you can only maybe do five at a time, and those five, you have to make sure that you pick the right piece of evidence. So that's between the lab and the law enforcement. So it's. It's convoluted. We're trying to figure it out as we go as well.
- [33:44]
B
Some can be very expensive, you know, 50,000 or more. You know, honestly, an easy one. You know, seven to $10,000. You know, one piece of really good DNA.
- [33:57]
C
Maybe $500.
- [33:58]
B
Yeah. So, you know, it. You know, in our case, it was a very good sample. And it was. You know, it was. It was. When I found out how much they charged the state of Idaho, I was like, oh, my gosh, are you kidding me? And that's kind of what turned us to be like, look, we could. We might be able to do this. I mean, it's not going to be easy. We're not going to be able to do thousands of them a year. But, I mean, at this rate, at this point, I'm like, if we could do one a year, which I want to do way more than that, but I'm like, if we could do one a year, you know, we fundraise and we do one. It's one. One less family that has to go through. Not because there's a lot that we don't know, as we just discussed.
- [34:41]
A
Right.
- [34:41]
B
And how. What. That tears me up, you know, but not knowing who murdered your loved one or raped your loved one or yourself, that is. That's a whole nother ball of wax. Yeah, that's a whole nother grief, terror, despair. That's a whole nother level to live through that day after day after day. That answer of, here's your person. This is who did it. He has been apprehended. It was a huge, you know, weight off of our shoulders. You know, we could. It was almost like I was suffocating at that point until we got that.
- [35:24]
A
Yeah. You know, I was gonna say I can imagine, but obviously I can't. I really imagine. So how do we donate? This is. The public can donate. Obviously, you'll be looking for big corporate partnerships as well. You've got some already. I'm Just on the website now.
- [35:39]
C
People need to realize that this can happen to you. This was not an isolated incident, just family. To Ethan's family, to Zanna's family, to Maddie's family. This can happen to you. How many times does Dateline 48 hours in these other shows start with these people saying, I never, never thought this could happen to us. We need to get these trees populated. People need to upload their DNA. I know people think that law enforcement takes it. And I can promise you, in all the years I've been in law enforcement, I have never, ever worked with one single person that says, hey, I got a great idea. Why don't we take Jill Blow's DNA and put it on Jane Doe's DNA and just mess up this entire case? It doesn't happen.
- [36:18]
A
And similarly to what you were saying about, you know, if, God forbid, your child did something terrible that you. The right thing to do is to encourage them to do the right thing. I think this is a similar sort of scenario in that if my DNA is uploaded and can assist in solving a crime, then I want that to happen. If my cousin or my third cousin or my second, whoever has, yeah. Done something right.
- [36:43]
B
Yes.
- [36:43]
C
Uploading the DNA is really the first and most important thing to do because you are creating a bigger pool from law enforcement to draw from so that we encourage people to go to GEDMatch and do that. I don't know what you all have there, but GEDmatch is here and we encourage people to that and to give because every single dime that we make, not one of us take a salary. We are never going to take a salary. I don't. We will. I paid for things out of my own pocket and so has she. I will never have dip into that. That goes strictly to families and helping them. So that's exactly what it's there for and what every dime is used for.
- [37:17]
A
We just spoke to CC Moore the other day. So she gave us all the details on how we in Australia can upload and upload to international databases and all of that. So I'm glad to know that that's part of this mission. Your board of directors, very, very impressive group. Christy and Tracy, Wow. Chris Hansen, an absolute legend in crime solving. Nancy Grace. John E. Douglas, one of the original profilers from the FBI. I mean, incredible. What have they expressed to you about why they want to be involved, these board members?
- [37:52]
B
Tracee has made every connection. She is the woman that doesn't sleep. She gets emails, she finds emails, she finds phone numbers. And she's cold calling, calling and cold emailing. And they respond to her and they're like, what can I do?
- [38:08]
C
I have never been. I thought, what are the chances of me getting a hold of Chris Hansen? Yeah, I did. He responded right away. His first words were, I'm in. How can I help? Same with John Douglas. I mean, that's a legend in itself right there. The fact that he would loan us his reputation, his name, his face, just. It speaks so highly of him and who he is. Nancy Grace, I mean, there's nobody better than Nancy Grace. Andy Kahn, Beth Karras, I mean, they were in from the word go. And I have never in my life been so appreciative over people and just humbled when they said, what can I do? And they meant it. It really touched my heart.
- [38:46]
A
Busy people who must be asked every day to be part of projects. But I think there is something about. And every family deserves support, Christy. We know that. But there is something about the horror of this scenario, the nightmare sort of scenario that we're talking about with your kids that does. And I'll say it again, I can't imagine how anyone doesn't have an open heart for you, for your families. I can't imagine how anyone could want to inflict any more pain on you. You've all carried yourselves with so much grace during this. Are the families still aligned? I mean, we've mentioned before, everyone grieves in their own ways. Everyone copes with trauma, and there's nothing more traumatic than what's happened to you. In their own ways. Are you aligned as families, as a group?
- [39:39]
B
Absolutely. Solid. All four families.
- [39:44]
A
Yeah.
- [39:45]
B
We all feel the same. We feel the same way. I mean, some of us are more vocal, you know, but we all align with. This is the person that murdered our child. None of this other stuff, this chitter chatter, these conspiracies, theories that are just, you know, winding and winding. No, no. One person. Him. Him alone. And all four families stand in very strong solidarity with that. All four of us.
- [40:16]
A
I'm glad to hear it. Because you need each other's support, too. Yes. Nobody else knows what you're living through.
- [40:23]
B
No. But each other.
- [40:25]
A
Yeah.
- [40:25]
B
Yeah.
- [40:27]
A
Tracy, so tell us, can you just summarise? What would you like us to do? What do we need to do? I know a lot of our listeners are going to want to support you guys in your project. We've talked about uploading our DNA. Donate. We can donate on the website. Mirta has a name.
- [40:41]
C
Yes, just. That's donate. Upload your DNA and just talk about us, spread the word. Just know that we're share us. We're doing it for every victim out there, past, present. We are trying to help all three of those categories. And the more help we can get, the more we would appreciate it.
- [40:57]
A
And the website is fantastic. It explains very clearly what the mission is, what the process is. You're donating through stripe, so, you know, we know it's all secure, and you've really done it perfectly. Tracy. What an idea. Congratulations to you.
- [41:15]
C
Thank you.
- [41:16]
A
And congratulations to you, Christy. You guys are a real beacon of survival. I heard someone describe you as living victims the other day, and I don't know how you feel about that, but I thought it does. It makes you stop and think about the fact that his victims are more than those four people in that house. Many more.
- [41:36]
B
Yeah. Yeah. Because so many people, you know, were affected by his crimes. I mean, so many. You go to the University of Idaho, where, you know, where the crime was close to. And these were students on November 13th, and they have a huge memorial there for them on the November 13, and it is huge. And these kids are past the time that. So the kids that are there now don't know them. Do you know what I'm saying? The four years have rolled. They would have been out. And these are all new kids, and they're out there with their little camera lights or their little candles, and it is massive. And you see something like that, and you look back and you see these people crying and holding each other. They're victims. They're affected so deeply by this, by just the. I don't know if it was the brutality. I don't know if it was just because, you know, they were just kids living their life, not doing anything wrong. They weren't involved in, like, you know, weird things. You know, they were literally just living their lives.
- [42:55]
A
They weren't risk takers. I think also we talk about crimes taking the innocence of communities, and I think that happened here, don't you? I think that as a town, as a. An environment, there was a sense of safety that parents could send their kids there. And it was a safe, gentle, fun college town. And I think that's forever been taken.
- [43:15]
B
It's beautiful there. It's. It's tiny. It's very quaint. They've got, you know, a little. A little strip, the main street that has some restaurants on it that are super fun, super cute. Some little stores, you know, mom and mom and dad, you know, type stores. And. And then there's the University of Idaho, you know, like, it's a beautiful campus and when school's not in session, it's like a ghost town. There's nothing there. But it's a very clean. It's just very, very quaint. You know, we always love going down there and visiting the kids for. At college, you know, we'd go down and stay the night or whatnot. And. And obviously now we don't it now even driving through. I mean, I'm just like. I can't even like drive through. But it was a very much so a safe place. And it just goes to show that there is no place safe because he's not the only one like him that's out there, unfortunately. I mean, I wish we could say, you know what? He's the only one. There's nobody else out there. Like, you know, the one, the only. We've got him. It's over. But he's not the only one. I mean, there's more people out there that think like him, that want to do the things that he did.
- [44:34]
C
They live amongst us and he generationally hurt them. You know, he stole what she should have had. He stole future kids, he stole their children. He stole where her siblings are gonna talk. Their. Their children are gonna talk about their aunt years to come. He stole a lot. Not just her life. He stole the lives that come after her too well.
- [44:56]
A
And also he changed things for her siblings, for your other kids, and for everyone else's. He changed the way they will raise their own children. He' right. The com. The confidence, the comfortability they can have in having children themselves. I've spoken to many people who were in situations like that who lost a sibling to violence, lost a family member. And it's generational, as you said. It affects everybody for generations.
- [45:23]
B
Yeah, it does. Olivia literally, with her kids, she lives in like a bubble. She's like, I don't want. She never posts any pictures of her children online. I mean, if they're in the background photo, she'll even be like, I don't. She's in the background just taking them. Like, you can't even see her. It's like the back of her, she's like, I don't care, mom. No, no. You know, And I'm like, okay. You know, she doesn't want people knowing where she lives at all. She just is. Is very much so, like, leave us alone. Like, leave. You know, I have these babies and I have to protect them.
- [45:59]
A
Absolutely. Thank you so much. I wanna let you go. You've given us an hour and I just, I'm so conscious of the day that it is, Christy, and I know that you've said, well, you know, this is how we're dealing with it this year, we're getting on with our lives. But it's still, it is what it is. So thank you so much for spending time with us, especially today. Thank you, Tracy.
- [46:20]
C
Thank you for having us.
- [46:21]
A
And I hope that you and Steve and the rest of the family can have a peaceful night.
- [46:27]
B
Christy, Steve's home, so I will go join him and probably just get up in bed and put on a movie and just try to release our minds. Yeah.
- [46:38]
A
Good plan. If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or. Or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800Respect.org au Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org au.
- [47:16]
B
The producers of this podcast recognise the
- [47:20]
A
traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.