Loading summary
Transcript122 lines
- [00:00]
A
He looked very nervous, Very, very nervous. And I said to him, so, Mr.
- [00:08]
B
Heuerman,
- [00:10]
A
I understand that you were confessing to me on these murders. Can you please tell me how many of these women did you kill? He said, eight. Eight. Was there any hesitation when he said eight? No, he just told me the answer. He said, I wasn't home during all of them. Were any of them killed in the house? He said, yes, they were killed in his room downstairs.
- [00:40]
B
All except one. That's Long island woman Arsa Ellerup describing the jailhouse meeting with her husband, Rex Heuermann, in which he admitted to her that he is a serial killer. It's part of a documentary series called Gilgo Beach House of Secrets. This is Australian True Crime International with Michelle Laurie. In May 2010, 24 year old Shannon Gilbert disappeared after making a frantic 911 call from Oak beach on Long island, telling police someone was trying to kill her. The search for Shannon led investigators to a remote stretch of coastline near Gilgo beach, where they instead uncovered the remains of multiple missing women, beginning what would become one of America's most notorious serial killer investigations over the years. The case remained unsolved until 2023, when architect Rex Hu was arrested after authorities linked him to the murders through DNA evidence, burner phones, and a renewed task force investigation. In April of this year, Heuermann pleaded guilty to murdering seven women and admitted to an eighth killing, though investigators are still examining whether more victims could be connected to him. The women Heuermann admitted to murdering were Melissa Barthelemy, Megan Waterman, Amber Costello, Maureen Brainard Barnes, Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, Sandra Costilla, and Karen Vergada. Today we're joined by Shannon McGarvey, host of the Lisk Podcast and a consultant and prominent contributor to Peacock's Gilgo Beach Killer House of Secrets documentary series. We begin this conversation talking about Rex's wife, Arsa Ellarup. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [02:41]
A
Asa has her own journey with all of this, and I think it probably didn't help that her. Their daughter, you know, toward the end of, you know, the documentary that I was a part of, she started having her own doubts as well. And then, you know, eventually it's just like you get one indictment and then another one comes, and then another one comes, and the DNA evidence is just overwhelming. And at one point, you Just kind of have to face reality and be like, you know, maybe he did do this and it's not my fault, you know?
- [03:17]
B
Isn't it? It's such a massive reality from her perspective because not only did her husband subsequently confess to murdering eight women, but he confessed to murdering seven of them in. In the basement of their home.
- [03:30]
A
It's a huge reality, at least. Yeah, I. I believe he said one of them he. He kept in their actual house proper as well.
- [03:39]
B
Wow.
- [03:40]
A
It's heartbreaking. Heart wrenching. I think about the victim's families. I think about, you know, if it were me listening to, you know, details of my friend's death or my sister's death, my daughter's death. I mean, how terrible for them to just constantly have to relive the horrors of. Of their family members murder, their death.
- [04:07]
B
These families lived through first years of no information, years of just their loved ones remains being found and this stilted, weird investigation which we'll get into. But now the details of what actually happened to their girls just get worse and worse, don't they?
- [04:24]
A
Yeah. And, I mean, it was a. I think I read it was a thousand days to the date from when he was arrested to when he admitted guilt. That on top of years and years and years of either, you know, obviously not knowing, and then just a total feeling of apathy from the media, from law enforcement, no answers for years and years. So I. The pain and torture that these families have been through is unimaginable.
- [04:58]
B
And I think we do. Personally, I do include Assa and the children in this. I do include Rex's family in this. Not everybody does. Are they still living in the house?
- [05:10]
A
No.
- [05:11]
B
Okay.
- [05:11]
A
No. And I'm not keeping. Just to be clear, I'm not like, really keeping tabs on. On what they're doing. I wish them a peaceful existence. I don't believe that they knew anything. I believe that they were victims in their own way. You know, when I was working on the Gilgo beach documentary, the Peacock documentary that I was a part of, I consulted on that documentary and I was also interviewed. And so I had this really interesting perspective of being behind the scenes, kind of knowing what was going on and then being, you know, obviously a voice on camera as well. So I say that because there were some interesting perspectives specifically on Asa and her state of mind throughout the filming of the doc. And. And, you know, there were a couple of times where people, you know, would mention that, you know, just what you said, like, she's a victim as well, but also question, sort of, you know, her, her mental state, like where she
- [06:22]
B
was, and, well, she comes across as eccentric. I mean, that was really prior to the documentary. She is an eccentric character. And even before the documentary, she'd been exposed to a little bit of media by hanging out in the front yard and yelling at people who had gathered around to take photo of her and her children and, and video them just getting on with their lives. So by the time we got to the documentary, we already had this image that she was a strange one, which is not helpful in her situation.
- [06:52]
A
Yeah, well, I mean, I think for context, when he was arrested in June of, of 2023, they, you know, the next day they turned up. I mean, he was arrested in, in Manhattan. She, they lived about an hour away on Long Island. So the next morning, I think the authorities, or maybe that night, the authorities turned up at their, at their house and he obviously wasn't there, but they all but said like, hey, you got to get out and you got to get out now. And so they were kicked out of their house. They have an autistic son as well, so that was quite, you know, traumatizing for him. They're sent to a hotel with their animals. You know, they had multiple animals. And then law enforcement comes in and they basically occupied the house, ransacking it, going through, because it's all evidence. Right. So when they eventually were allowed to go back to their home, when the family was allowed to go back to their home, it was unlivable. They had no home to go back to. So the only place that they could really be was outside. And what was happening outside, but a media circus because everyone was speculating, what did she know? You know, was she complicit? And I think it's really easy for people to speculate when you're not in that situation. And I'm not an apologist by any means for Asa and her family, I just have a heart. And I don't honestly think that she knew what was going on. I do think that if she's guilty of anything, it's kind of being checked out, of being oblivious of not noticing. I mean, but who am I to speculate on a 20 some odd year marriage? I mean, things happen. Marriages are hard. But yeah, I, I think that, you know, he very much so lived a double life, and she was also one to kind of have her head in the sand about, you know, maybe other things that might have piqued interest with wives.
- [09:11]
B
Yeah, well, it's interesting you make that point. Firstly, I want to also say that the house was a gift to the media. The actual physical structure of the house, because it looks like a creepy house out of a movie, a horror movie. Right. I mean, it's in a really nice neighborhood, and then right in the middle of it is this little house that I heard someone else describe as looking like something out of Hoarders, which it does physically falling apart again, weirdly. Rex Heuermann's childhood home. He grew up in this house, kept the house, and as an architect, chose never to do anything to it apart from this famous bathroom renovation. So that was, I think, part of the frenzy and part of the image of Asa as being weird. But in saying that, you think that maybe she was a bit checked out and maybe didn't notice things. There is now a civil suit against Asa and her children that's been launched by one of the victims sons, Valerie Mac's son. And I believe one of the accusations is willful ignorance, is suggesting that they deliberately didn't ask questions that they knew they didn't want to know the answers to.
- [10:20]
A
I mean, I think maybe. And granted, I don't know, Assa. Maybe there. Maybe she did know something. I mean, this is just my hot take, but I don't. Maybe she suspected he was, you know, had. Had extramarital affairs. You know, maybe it was something like that. And like, I've known of women that just kind of, you know, they're taken care of. They've been married for a long time. She had breast cancer. She was doing other things. You know, she had bigger fish to fry. And I think, you know, at some point, you know, maybe she just was like, look, I got stuff going over here, going on over here. What am I going to do, leave him? I have no means of income. I have cancer. You know, so whatever he does, he can do. And, yeah, it was weird that he didn't go on vacation with them. It was weird that he had a room in the basement that they weren't allowed to go into. Yeah. Was weird that he has, you know, 200 some on firearms in the house. You know, like, all of these things are strange to the outsider, but I imagine that over time, you just kind of become desensitized when you live with somebody like this and it just becomes normal.
- [11:33]
B
But I have to say, I don't find any of those things weird, apart from the firearms. But then, no offense, that just sounds American to me.
- [11:41]
A
American. American and Trumpian.
- [11:46]
B
Right?
- [11:46]
A
He was a. He's a Trump supporter as well.
- [11:49]
B
Okay. And a man of his age, his generation, his Demographic, all of that stuff that didn't shock me. The other thing I don't find weird is Dad's room. Dad's space. Man cave.
- [12:00]
A
Yeah.
- [12:00]
B
To me, that is very, very normal. And growing up, most of the dads I knew had a space in the house, whether it was the garage or a room, a spare or something that we were. We knew. You don't go in there. That's Dad's room. It's his staff.
- [12:17]
A
But was your dad's room like, you know, soundproof, Bulletproof, like a big metal door, like a vault? His was like a metal vault that they literally had to lower into the. It was like a steel vault that they had to lower into the basement. Like, it was separate, like. How do you say? It was like something that he had, like, ordered, you know, like, you had to have, like, a crew come in and install it into your basement, and it was separate from the rest of the basement as well. So that is a totally. That's like, I'm all for somebody to have a man cave, you know, have your den, you know, have a shed in the back. We also call them she sheds here for women, but have your she shed. But ain't nobody got a bulletproof, soundproof she shed. I mean, like, that's a little accessible.
- [13:09]
B
It is. But again, fundamentally, who is thinking their husband's a serial killer?
- [13:14]
A
And I think that nobody ever thought it was as deviant and dark as it was, including his daughter. I mean, his daughter even worked with him in. In Manhattan. So Asa talks about him as if, you know, she. She called him, I believe, like her knight in shining armor, you know, like, she was her hero. And I think she just wanted to live in that space. Like, she didn't want to know because she couldn't afford to know spiritually, financially, you know, physically. Like, if she knew, then she would have to do something about it. She'd be forced to then confront it and be like, wow, do I want to stay? Do I want to leave? And she couldn't financially leave. She was bound to him. That's what I think was going on. I don't think she knew about these women. I don't. I don't think that she was complicit in their death. I think she was, you know, like we had said, just willfully ignorant.
- [14:16]
B
The other thing that Valerie Mac's son is. Well, at least alluding to in his civil suit is that she's made a lot of money from media since. Yeah, this story broke. And I'm assuming your documentary is Considered to be part of that.
- [14:29]
A
Oh, it was the, it was the primary, like, source of that income. Yeah, I think that a lot of that went to a lot of different places. Like, I don't think she got all of the money. I think that she had to pay her lawyer and she had to, you know, pay legal fees and it just went kind of everywhere.
- [14:49]
B
And I don't begrudge her because I agree with what you've been saying. She's now a single mother who can never work again for the rest of her life. Her kids can probably never work again for the rest of their life because of the notoriety of this case. However, I'm not the child of a victim, so I can see how the victim's families are thinking she should get nothing, they should get nothing. They're being rewarded.
- [15:10]
A
Yeah, I can see both sides and I don't. And that's where I want to be really careful because it's a tough line to hold because you can say, you can hold both at once and you can say, okay, she was this. And, you know, she deserves to live a life and, you know, she has to support herself and she'll never be able to work again. And her daughter's name, I mean, like her daughter was 14 years old or younger when these crimes were committed. And you had people after, you know, Rex Heuerman was taken into custody speculating that she was an accomplice. Yeah, the 14 year old daughter, you know, and then talking about her sexual preferences and all of these things. It was just totally inappropriate. Dragging her through the mud.
- [15:57]
B
Well, they were speculating that she was involved. And there was also speculation that she was victimised by him, that he had molested her. And so all of that for a child, for the world to be discussing is devastating. And one of the most moving parts of the documentary is her time spent with Dennis Rader's daughter. Dennis Rader, known as btk. This is another young woman who's who discovered that her father was a notorious serial killer. A father that she loved, that she spent time with and she thought she came from a very normal family. That seemed to help to me. It seemed to help both women, actually. But did you think that was helpful for Rex's daughter?
- [16:41]
A
Absolutely. I mean, she's been there and done that.
- [16:45]
B
He was a very high profile local dad, similar, you know, just a monster,
- [16:50]
A
monster among us type of person.
- [16:53]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Kerry Rawson talks about, I've seen, you know, other documentaries as well where she goes back to see their childhood home for the first time to discover that it's been torn down, but the neighbors are still screaming at her to get. Get out, get away. She's been thoroughly demonized in her own life for her father's crimes.
- [17:13]
A
Yeah, it's. It's quite sad how that happens. And. And it feels very misplaced at once. I can understand, you know, the. The emotion behind it, you know, because you can't have Rex Heuerman right in front of you. You know, you don't have Rex Heuerman in front of you. You don't have the BTK killer right in front of you. So you have this sort of like, stand in. But they did nothing wrong.
- [17:38]
B
And it's expensive to be a victim, and it's expensive to be a victim's family member. You know, the ongoing trauma, the ongoing. And again, speaking of not being able to work and things like that, you know, these are very real practical issues that an amount of money, like, I can guess ASA received for this documentary would go a long way to helping and healing. Mary Gilbert. For example, the sort of, potentially the most recognisable family member, Shannon Gilbert's mum was actually murdered by another daughter of hers who was struggling with schizophrenia. Like intense mental health issues going on within the family during this entire period, and they were still living in poverty, it seemed to me.
- [18:23]
A
That's. That's 100% true. Yeah. Mary Gilbert's story is tragic. And, uh, and I remember when she was murdered, no one, I mean, obviously no one expected it, but in terms of victim advocacy and victims families, she emerged as, you know, the. The sort of champion of all of that after her daughter, Shannon Gilbert, went missing in the Oak beach community. But what's interesting about her is that her daughter was never linked to the Gilgo beach murders, but it was her disappearance that led to the discovery of the victims of the Gilgo beach murders.
- [19:09]
B
But also Mary's advocacy for her daughter and the months, I think it was seven or eight months it took police to really search for Shannon. So Mary, during that period of time, is working very hard to get interest in the fact that her daughter has gone missing in this environment. And this is our first clue that Shannon's lifestyle, to put it, you know, politely as we do, the fact that she was a drug user, she was a sex worker. This is when the question first was raised. Is that an issue in police not investigating thoroughly? You know, all of the issues that came to the fore through this case really started with Mary and her daughter Shannon, didn't they?
- [19:50]
A
Yeah, it was Mary Gilbert Lorraine Ela, who was Megan Waterman's mother. And then we had Lynn Bartholomew, who was Melissa Bartholomew's mother. And then we had the sisters of Maureen Brainard Barnes and Amberlynn Costello. So it was a group of women, sort of a band of sisters. And I think, yes, the question was asked, does the fact that these women were engaged in sex work have anything to do with the fact that these cases have gone cold and unsolved? And, you know, at its heart, I do believe that, you know, the. The Long island serial killer case is a story about class, and it's a story about who matters and who doesn't matter when they go missing. Because you look at other stories that came out in and around Long island, like the Gabby Petito story. Here you have this young, you know, vibrant woman who's engaged in a relationship, and she goes missing, and the whole world stops. Everyone's looking for Gabby Petito. But you have a sex worker that goes missing who's a mother, a daughter, like Megan Waterman, and no one is really saying anything. And I'm talking about, like, when she had just gone missing. Right?
- [21:22]
B
Yeah.
- [21:23]
A
So there's a really interesting imbalance in that, where you can't help but ask, you know, did the. Did the fact that they were engaged in sex work have anything to do with the amount of attention they weren't receiving? And, you know, mind you, this case was cold for years and years and years. I started working. I came onto this case in 2016, which was six years after Shannon Gilbert had gone missing and five years after the Gilgo 4 were discovered, and nobody. I mean, this had. It had gone cold. Nobody was talking about it. I started working on it as a part of a documentary series for television. And we gathered all of these interviews, you know, talked to family members, law enforcement, former law enforcement, all of this stuff, and put together this, you know, a pilot, and nobody wanted. Nobody was interested. You know, the networks were like, you know, come to come. Come back when it's, you know, solved. When we came back to this footage in 2019 and decided to make it into a podcast, it was then that things, you know, the tide sort of started shifting, but still there was, like, very little dialogue about, you know, who did this, why did, you know. Like, it really felt like we were just kind of bang on a drum, like, about the victims and, like, who they were. And by this point, the police chief in Suffolk county had gone to jail, you know, and that was.
- [22:56]
B
I was just thinking that. I was thinking things were constantly shifting on the side of law enforcement too, on Long island, right? Yes. The district attorney, the police chiefs, personnel in and out. So that changes the direction every time.
- [23:09]
A
Oh, yeah. And, and you know what's interesting is that when I first came onto this project back in 2016, it was. I came on as a, as a freelancer. You know, it was pitched to me as a story about crooked cops, Right. Like, it was like, oh, we got these crooked cops in Long island, right, and we got to do a story about them. And it became very clear to me that, you know, it wasn't a story about crooked cops. I mean, that was like a C or a D storyline. It was a story about these women and why this very, very solvable case had languished for so many years as unsolved. And that was the, that was the story. When I, you know, started digging in, it was like, oh my God, like no one is paying attention. And why?
- [24:02]
B
Well, I mean, you call it a very, very solvable case. And indeed this people now talk about it coming together in six weeks in the end, when a particular. Right when the, when the DA and the police, yeah, were really on top of it and really interested and really on it and reinvestigated the case. One of the reasons though, and I'll take you back to the idea that this is a story about class, is that there was a tip off in 2010, very soon after the last known victim disappeared. Amberlynn Costello, her, I believe it was a housemate and another friend. Two blokes called Dave and Bear. They called police and they said, we're friends of this lady who's just gone missing and we want you to look at this. This guy. This is a guy who was at our house as a client. They called him the Ogre. They said he's huge physically. They even they could tell police what car he drove away in. And as one of them points out, I think Dave points out in a subsequent interview, how many 7 foot tall ogres are there on Long island driving this particular truck. Like it. And all of this they said to them in 2010, I wonder if the tip wasn't followed up on because of the type of people Dave and Bear, ah. And were.
- [25:17]
A
I mean, yeah, so he was struggling with drug addiction. I mean, they all were. And just to give, you know, a little bit of backstory on Amber, Amber had been married before. She was a born again Christian. She had had a whole life prior to this life that she found herself in, in Babylon, which is a community and on the south shore of Long Island. So she had come out there at the behest of her sister and had been living with Dave Shotler and I believe maybe dating Bear. So, yeah, they were taking in calls in their house to fuel their addiction. And yeah, the, you know, when we spoke to Dave, he was still in the throes of addiction and he was bereft. I mean, totally taken by guilt, overcome by guilt. Said several times, I should, I shouldn't have let her do that. You know, what were we thinking? I remember that night I almost saw the truck. I didn't, you know, I couldn't quite make it out. And I remember we were showing pictures of him, showing pictures of the possible trucks and suspects to him. And he, in this interview, appeared to be under the influence of a highly sedative substance and was kind of in a stupor. And when we showed him this one truck, he perked up and he was like, what is that? That? That's the truck. So I found it interesting when it came out that it was a Chevy Avalanche and that a witness had identified that and I instantly knew, I knew it was Dave Schaller because he had told us. Right. I think it's absolutely possible that law enforcement dismissed his claims. I also think it's possible that they didn't really follow up or talk to him much at all. Because you have to understand, during this time there was a confluence of events happening in the Suffolk County Police Department. We had a sort of changing of the guards of sorts when all of this started happening. So when the Gilgafor are discovered, you know, there is one police chief and then a few months later there's another one. And when the other one comes in, when the new guard comes in, everything is shaken up. And the new guard is headed up by a man named James Burke. And he was just about as crooked as they come, honestly. And, and I think that, you know, during this time you don't, you know, if you're dealing, you know, if you have assorted past, if you're dealing in crooked activities, you know, you don't really want the feds coming in and investigating a serial killer case.
- [28:18]
B
Well, that's right. The point has been made many times since that, that the FBI have specialised agents and units to deal with serial killers and yet they were never allowed near this case for many, many years.
- [28:29]
A
Correct.
- [28:29]
B
And that's specifically down to James Burke, is it not? The police chief, yes.
- [28:34]
A
And the DA at the, the time, yeah.
- [28:36]
B
Yeah. Again, it's hard to believe though, that they could have that much power. It's Hard to believe that someone, the FBI perhaps, couldn't say, too bad. This is. This is our jam. This is what we do. So we're coming. But they were able to keep them at arm's length, keep them away. If we can go back to Dave for a minute, I just wanted to say, I can't imagine how one recovers from an addiction after living through this. I mean, you know, again. Again, to go back to the effect on the family and friends, it doesn't surprise me that some of them continue to struggle with addiction issues and many other issues.
- [29:12]
A
Oh, I mean, I. I had a very, very long discussion with Bear a few years ago, and again, I. I find it hard to characterize these people as all one thing or all, you know, another. I mean, they're human beings. They found themselves in a terrible situation through, like, the arbitrary circumstances of life. You know, they were struggling with a very, very real disease, and some horrible things happened, and they have to live with that for the rest of their lives. And they feel awful. They feel terrible about it. And I think Bear in particular. And again, I don't really want to speak for him, but what I heard from our conversation was that, you know, he was racked with guilt that he felt like he could have done more, he should have done more, and, you know, wanted to dedicate his life, so to speak, to making it right and giving any information, doing any sort of press, to kind of write the record on Amber and write the record on what was actually happening in that house with Dave. I mean, there were people in the beginning calling him her pimp, calling Dave her pimp. Amber was a sole proprietor. She was like her own boss, you know, like, there was no pimp here.
- [30:38]
B
Well, that's the context of the time as well, isn't it? That 2010, we've suddenly got smartphones, which revolutionized the sex industry. It meant that women could work for themselves. Women no longer needed to go into brothels or have pimps or any of that stuff. They could run their own business on their phone. They could decide who their clients would be and how much they would charge them and all of that. So that's this revolution that's happening.
- [31:03]
A
Yes. And also the Internet, like Backpage, Craigslist.
- [31:06]
B
Yeah, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. So we're taking out the middleman. And the other thing I think, that comes through is that so many of the family and friends are feeling guilt because they maintained close relationships with these women. These women hadn't been thrown away by society or any of those cliches we often think about with women living this lifestyle. They were all. Most of these victims that we know about were close to their families, were in constant contact with their families and friends, and were missed very quickly.
- [31:37]
A
That's right. You know, there were some. Some stories that have come out about Valerie Mac, you know, being estranged from her family only, you know, she was an orphan and had been adopted. And I think, you know, she might have been estranged from her family.
- [31:54]
B
I think a lot of people are shocked to know that a lot of their families knew they worked in the sex industry. You know, the. The closeness.
- [32:02]
A
Yes, they were very, very close to their families. For example, Melissa Bartholomew. I mean, God, that story, if I, you know, if I sit with it too long still to this day, it will make me cry because her. She was so loved by her mother, by her sister, by her grandparents. I mean, she was such a beloved member of the family. And she had gone to New York, like many women do, like I did, once upon a time. Once upon a time, chasing a dream. You know, she had a dream of opening a salon. She wanted to be a business owner. And she, you know, fell in with what people call a Romeo pimp, you know, which was like a boyfriend that eventually coerced her into sex work. And her parents did not. Her mom and her family did not know that she was engaged in that. Like, they did not know. And when they found out, they were shocked. Similarly, Marine Brainerd Barnes, you know, she was actually. She was engaged in sex work willingly, you know, like she was doing it to support her family. She had two children. She was out there just trying to, you know, make a living. I. I think maybe her sister probably knew about it, but Megan Waterman, I don't know that her. Her family knew about it. She had a daughter at home. She was trafficked across state lines by another Romeo pimp. So to your point, they were all loved and cared for, and they had families and lives, and through the arbitrary circumstances of life of life, found themselves in these horrible situations that for reason, they could not escape. And unfortunately, it ended up, you know, killing them.
- [33:56]
B
Well, I mean, talk about the arbitrary circumstances through which they cross paths with Rex. Human, even. You know, I mean, these are girls who. They don't work every night, they don't work every day, they don't accept every call, and yet, unfortunately, they happen to have their phone switched on. On a night where his family was out of town, where he was in a position where he could murder somebody. They fit the description that he was looking for. Petite Young women. The bad luck of it is just horrifying. And I think about Melissa Barthelemy at the moment, when I think about the statement that Heuerman's lawyer made when someone asked, why did he plead guilty? Why after all these years of claiming innocence, has he chosen to plead guilty? And he said, oh, well, part of it is that he wants to spare the families a trial. And immediately when we hear, you know, we call bullshit on that, and we. We think about Melissa's sister Amanda, who was a young teenager when her sister went missing, and she.
- [35:00]
A
15.
- [35:01]
B
Tell us about the contact that Heuerman had with this child.
- [35:05]
A
Oh, God. So, yeah, Amanda. Amanda Funderberg is her name. And she. She actually. She sat down with us on the Lisk podcast. But, yeah, she was 15 years old at the time, and she was very close to Melissa and had a trip planned from Buffalo down to the Bronx, where Melissa lived. And I think, you know, she might have known a little more than. Than the mother did about, you know, what Melissa was engaged in. But, yeah, they. They were very close. And because she had a trip planned, you know, they had been calling a lot and texting, you know, just communicating a lot about the impending trip. And when Melissa went missing, her phone, you know, we now know Rex Heuerman took her phone and, you know, when she disappeared, you know, kept it and called the family, called her sister Amanda and taunted her with just these terrible, terrible things. You know, like, they said, I know. You know, I know where your sister is. I murdered her. She, you know, was. I killed her in a. In a whorehouse in Queens, you know, describing certain things. And this poor girl who was, like I said, 15 years old, sat there and listened to it and then had to tell the authorities about it. I've seen, you know, they made her write it down. I've seen the page that, you know, in her handwriting that, you know, she wrote all these horrible things that he had said to her. And when we sat down with her, she recalled it as though it was like. And it just happened, you know, it was like. You could just see. It was like ptsd.
- [36:59]
B
Absolutely. But she's reacted with rebellion. It's like she has been rebelling against him ever since, in her own little ways, long before she knew who he was or had a face for him. She talks about not making herself invisible. She talks about opening Facebook accounts, opening all those accounts under her real name, weirdly hoping he would contact her again in a way, if that could help track him down, if that could add evidence. I Mean, she's incredible strength.
- [37:30]
A
Yeah. I've often wondered why he stopped trying to contact her. Because, you know, in the bail application, there were. They detailed his search history and on his computer, and he Googled himself a lot. You know, he was consuming content about the. The murders. He got off on it. And so I've often wondered why he stopped, but it's probably because, you know, she started. I think. I think she said, like, the third time, the second or third time he contacted her, they were trying to trace. You know, they were trying to record it and trace, like, where it was and all this stuff. So. So he probably just felt like it got too. Too hot, you know, and, like, wasn't going to do it again. But, yeah, I admire her strength. I. I can't even begin to imagine what she has had to deal with and lives with every single day. You know, I've had a person close to me who was murdered, and it's haunting, and I can't imagine adding that layer of just like the. The murderer contacting you and taunting you and telling you details about your loved one's death that they committed. I mean, it's just.
- [38:58]
B
It's sick, the fear that he's coming for me, you know?
- [39:01]
A
Absolutely.
- [39:01]
B
Again, we're talking about a teenage. A child who knows they've been in contact with this person. And. And she talks about that for years, looking over her shoulder, thinking, is he coming for me? This is all part of. Part of it, I'm assuming from his perspective, you know, we'll never know, because by the grace of God, our brains don't work the way his does. But as part of the plea deal that he's done, he has agreed to submit himself to analysis right. By the behavioral analysis unit at the FBI, most commonly known as the profiling unit. Why. Why do you think that? And do you think we're dealing with a guy here? I'm thinking about a Ted Bundy, or again, a btk. Someone who wants to. Who's kind of proud of what they've achieved and wants to talk about it.
- [39:47]
A
Well, when law enforcement collected evidence from his home, they found that book, Mindhunter, which was. I can't remember the author's name, but John Douglas.
- [39:59]
B
It's the. Yeah, so it's the classic. And then there was the TV series about it.
- [40:03]
A
I was thinking about it.
- [40:03]
B
Yeah.
- [40:03]
A
So he. Yeah, he. He fetishized all of that, that behavior analysis, that behavioral analysis, and he used it as sort of like a textbook, you know? What did he say? He said, I think Rex Heuerman described it as like, the. The artist and the painting or something. Like, it was like, you can't. Like you can't study the artist. You have to study the technique, which is disgusting. I mean, he's talking about, you know, I think he fancies himself as some sort of maniacal artist or something like that, you know, so.
- [40:34]
B
And a genius. They always think they're genius.
- [40:36]
A
And a genius. Yes, absol. Absolutely. And which he's not. He's sick and he's a deviant. He's not a genius. And the only reason he got away with it for so long is because the Suffolk County Police Department was so inept and the FBI was kept at arm's length because. And again, if there's any, you know, potential killer out there or whatever, listening, it's like, you're not a genius. You know, it's just the only reason this guy even got away with it is. Is because of all those factors. It was just luck. It was dumb luck. And that's my fear with this whole, you know, behavioral. Behavioral analysis, you know, is like, wow, you are really playing in to this idea of this man being a genius. And so now you're going to study him. And I understand that there's some benefit, you know, because in a way, serial killers are very antiquated. You know, they're. They're. They're becoming increasingly more rare because we have DNA, you know, analysis and cell phones and technology and all of these things. Right. So they are quite rare. And I think that to have a serial killer operating, you know, with all of these things and to have gotten away with it for so long, I think there's something to be said about studying that. But also. Yeah, I just. I'm concerned that it only sort of fetishizes it more.
- [42:07]
B
It raises his status, certainly it raises his status to that of the iconic serial killers. I mean, this department focused on Ed Kemper, on Charlie Manson, on. And yeah, so it definitely, I'm sure, in his mind, raises him to a certain level of killer. I think there's so many other aspects of this case that raise its status as well. And the families. The work that the families did to de. Stigmatise their daughters, you know, to try and keep the story in the media, and all of that all goes to why this is such a big case. Do you think his lawyer has said that he expects that he will speak, he will have something to say at his sentencing hearing where the families will give their victim impact statements. What are you expecting from him there? I I have two cases that come to mind. The first, obviously is BTK Dennis Rader, who stood there for an hour and detailed every murder, how he did them. The other, though, is Brian Kohberger, a recent case. The man who murdered the four students in Idaho who said nothing. And that was devastating because the families still have no idea of motive, no idea how he even connected with these kids, how he found them, how he chose them. So what are you expecting from Heuweman?
- [43:26]
A
I mean, I think what I'm expecting and what I wish, maybe in conflict. I hope that the families can address him. You know, I hope that there will be some, I don't know that there is ever quite closure in cases like this, but some peace that they might find at, you know, getting years and years worth of trauma off their chest. Talking to him, addressing him directly. I don't think he's capable of remorse, whatever he says. Honestly, I'd fear that it would only traumatize the families more. I think that we know everything that we need to know about what he did and how he did it. It's been detailed to the nines. And I think that any apology he offers them is empty, it's hollow. But again, I'm not them. I don't know what they want, but I would hope that they would be given a platform to address him directly in a private way. And I hope that it's not televised or recorded. But yeah, whatever he says is not. I mean, what is. What could he. I mean, and seriously, what could he possibly say? We know everything. If he says sorry, would you believe him?
- [44:41]
B
No. And there's no point, there's no mitigation for him in terms of sentencing. So I, I suspect anything he says will be self serving and in his mind, feeding the iconic status exactly of himself and what he's done. So the eight victims that he has now confessed to murdering, there was seven that he was charged with, but he added the eighth, interestingly. Maureen Brainard, Megan Waterman, Melissa Barthelemy, Amberlynn Costello, Sandra Costilla, Valerie Mackay, Karen Vergada and Jessica Taylor. Sandra Costilla stands out because she is the earliest known victim. Is that correct? 1993, she went missing.
- [45:26]
A
Yeah, November 1993, she was killed. And, you know, initially she was lumped in with, you know, she was attributed to a different murderer. A man named John Bitroff was originally attributed to Sandra Castilla. So when her name came out, it was, it was interesting and a bit shocking, honestly, for all of us who had been following the case, because she was always A question mark that kind of leaned more toward John Bitroff. So she was just kind of always like unsolved.
- [45:59]
B
So if she's the earliest. If she's the earliest known victim, Amberlynn Costello, the last known victim in 2010. So that's a 17 year span that we know of. I guess what I'm getting at is there any agreed, even ballpark of real victims that can be attributed to this guy. For one thing, I wanted to ask you about some of the other remains that were found at Gilgo Beach. There was famously, the remains of a toddler found, and those remains were unidentified for many, many years, but eventually connected with another Jane Doe left at another location who was known for many years as Peaches because she had a tattoo of Peaches on her body.
- [46:43]
A
Correct.
- [46:44]
B
Now, though, neither of those two, so that it turned out the toddler was her baby. Neither of those two have since been attributed to Heuerman. What do you make of that?
- [46:54]
A
Yeah, you know, I actually, I was told a while back from a source that they were not victims of Huberman, that they were suspected domestic violence. And they have since come out after they identified the woman and her baby and said basically that they were looking at the father of, of this baby as a possible suspect, that they don't have enough evidence to link him. And, and honestly, before we knew all of this when they were still unidentified, that was the hardest part of the case for me, is thinking of a serial killer out there, you know, harming children or, you know, it was speculated that Peaches was a, a sex worker, which we now know she was not. She was an army veteran and a single mother. But, you know, there were a lot of stories that people were concocting about what could have possibly happened, you know, and how sex workers would take their children, you know, on calls, which was just horrific. And I'm sure that has happened. But we were just, you know, for years and years, these unnamed victims, I mean, Internet sleuths, investigators, all of this, like, we were just kind of speculating and people. I mean, I remember being a part of a forum where, you know, the, the baby was found in a certain type of. With a certain type of blanket. And people were literally tracking down the make of the blanket when it was sold. What area of town, you know, what stores in what area of town carried this blanket. I mean, like, we literally knew nothing for years and years and years. So it is honestly, you know, even though they're not connected to Huberman, it is a prayer answered that they are named and that they have their names back, which was probably one of the. The most haunting parts of this case for me is how many unnamed victims there were. Honestly, I never, ever thought that we would find, you know, that anyone would ever be arrested. I never thought that we would have a suspect or that this case would ever be solved. Like I said, I thought it was solvable, but I never thought it would be solved. So I, A long time ago, just stopped kind of thinking about him, whoever he was, and focused more on what I thought was maybe a little more attainable, which was naming the victims. So for me, the fact that they've all been named, with the exception of one, has just been kind of like a wish granted, a prayer answer, or a dream come true.
- [49:45]
B
Yeah, absolutely. To me, the evidence now that more than one person was dumping remains along Gilgo beach sort of belongs in the same column as the Shannon Gilbert disappearance, not being a murder by Rex Heuermann. It's weird, but weird stuff happens sometimes. And to me, it speaks to the environment more than anything. Gilgo beach clearly presented itself as a great place to dump bodies.
- [50:14]
A
Oh, my gosh. So for listeners who have no context about what this area looks like, so you have New York City, which we all know, you know, we have a picture of that in our head. Right. High density, population, spark, you know, huge buildings, all this stuff. Right. You drive just east of the city for maybe 30, 30 minutes, and you're in this long, you know, on this long island. Yeah. And it's quite rural. Parts of it are quite desolate and empty. And you have an area called Ocean Parkway, which stretches the length of, you know, the south shore of the island. And when you're on this, like, a freeway. Right?
- [51:02]
B
A road.
- [51:03]
A
Yeah, it's like a. It's a highway. And. And it just. On either side, there's like a. There's a bay on one side and then there's the ocean on the other. And at nighttime, it's black, like pitch black. And it goes for miles and miles and miles and miles. And now there's, you know, like a bike path. And, you know, some areas that, like, where the victims were disposed of, it's like, sort of cordoned off, and you can't, you know, there's a bike path that runs along alongside of it. But back in the day, it was not like that. And you could just literally pull over to the side and you could see somebody coming from the east and the west, you know, for miles and miles. Right. And you could do whatever you wanted to, and you See some headlights, you hop in your car, you drive off. Right. So it was quite literally the perfect place to dispose of anything, including a body. And no one would catch you.
- [52:06]
B
No one would have ever looked there were it not for Shannon Gilbert. But Shannon Gilbert's being on the island, to me in retrospect, speaks of what a roaring trade sex workers were doing on the island. It's a very affluent neighborhood. A lot of holiday homes.
- [52:25]
A
Right.
- [52:25]
B
And things like that, too. I mean, I noticed that even. Was it Megan, one of the other women, had booked a hotel room there for a couple of nights to work, and that tells me that there was a lot of work there to be had.
- [52:39]
A
Yes, that was Megan Waterman. She was. She was trafficked. And her. Her boyfriend, or if you even want to call him her boyfriend, but her boyfriend had. Had booked a room in Haupaud for her and had trafficked her in from Maine, a few states to the north.
- [52:56]
B
So that tells me there's a lot of work there. There's a lot of clients.
- [52:58]
A
Oh, yeah, it was. It was on Memorial Day weekend, so it's a holiday weekend. And he would, you know, and I think they'd done it a couple of times before, but, yeah, they would come for the weekend, make some money, and then leave. But, yeah, and. And Shannon didn't typically go out to Long island, but she was offered a large sum of money and had a driver and who was available at that time. And the driver sort of, you know, worked for her, was not a pimp, nothing like that, but acted as security, you know, so facilitated the call and then also kind of acted as, like, a safeguard, and took her out to the Oak beach community, which was an affluent community on the south shore of Long island, not too far from Gilgo beach, which is also on the south shore.
- [53:51]
B
All of it makes sense to me in terms of why she was there and why all of these women were working. The one thing that really spins me out is the police found a receipt for a type of paper towel that was found with one of the victims. And then it was also a sheet of it found in Heuerman's desk drawer. Now, it's a peculiar paper towel for many reasons, but I just thought to myself, whenever police find these things, receipts for things bought years before, and I think, surely I don't have any of that crap lying around my house, but maybe I do. Maybe we'd all be really shocked by what police would find in our homes. What's the most shocking piece of evidence for you in this case? That was found in their home. I mean, what about the lists on the computer where he's got his sort of list of things to remember that.
- [54:43]
A
Yeah, yes, that was, that sent a chill down my spine. I, I would say, yes, the, the Internet search records, the list of like, kind of like how to, you know, dispose where to, you know, be careful about this. Like the things, the mundane, you know, just the way that he would speak about these horrific acts in such a mundane manner. Like the way that we might write a note to ourselves like, oh, pick up the laundry, or like, do, you know, this? Or whatever, go to the grocery store, don't forget to. It was the way he was talking about murdering someone. Or like, be careful, like, watch out for, you know, people in Maynardville when you dump the body there. You know, it's just crazy how methodical I think he was and the way he sort of just compartmentalized it as if it were some mundane rote activity. But yeah, the, all the, the digital archives were really interesting. I think, if I'm honest with you, there was some speculation that, you know, he had, he had googled like some podcasts about the Gilgo beach murders and obviously like we had a pretty prominent podcast about the Long island serial killer. So.
- [56:02]
B
Wow, I never thought of that.
- [56:04]
A
That was so. That was haunting to me. Like, that was probably the, the biggest one.
- [56:10]
B
It's a 12 year investigation right from when police have first uttered the word serial killer, when they started finding these bodies to when he's arrested is 12 years. So I guess the question a lot of us have is, what's he doing during those 12 years? I must. Did he stop killing? And. No, he didn't stop killing.
- [56:29]
A
Okay, I should back up and say I don't have evidence. I don't know that he stopped killing. I mean, like between 2010.
- [56:36]
B
But we heard your answer. Your, your gut is pretty determined.
- [56:40]
A
I mean, but I mean, but these people. But also, I mean, it doesn't make
- [56:44]
B
sense that he would have at all.
- [56:45]
A
It doesn't? Yeah, it doesn't make sense. I mean, if you look at the record, it goes all the way back to 1993. Some people speculate it goes back to 1982. So I mean, like, he would just spontaneously stop killing. I mean, and maybe he did, but some people speculate that it went out of state. Others say there's no possible way it would have gone out of state. Like, he loved the torture aspect of this and like, he needed that, you know, basement where he could keep them and all of this Stuff, you know, so. But, you know, he wasn't the seasonal killer. It was like his wife's seasonality, you know, her leaving that allowed for him to murder.
- [57:27]
B
So it's hard to believe that given the opportunity, he would be able to resist it when his wife took the kids out of town. Again, that for 12 years he could resist. Doesn't really make sense.
- [57:38]
A
Well, and if you look at the frequency at which he was killing through from, like, 1996 to 2010, it would just be every few years, Right. Like, whenever he kind of got the opportunity now, his children got older, maybe there were less opportunities, you know, less family vacations, who knows? And maybe he replaced it with something else. I mean, I think there were. There were sex workers and women that came forward and said, oh, he contacted me just a few years ago where, like, I flew in from Las Vegas to, you know, to see him. Or like, he. So there is a lot of speculation about, you know, what he was doing during that time. Some people think that he was just, you know, because of all the technology and all the, you know, the. The rise of the Internet or whatever, that, you know, he could just sort of satiate himself by reading about it online, you know, the notoriety, listening to these things. He got off in a different way. So it wasn't so much about the killing anymore, but, like, the fetishizing and like the reading about himself and all that. But I also find that hard to believe. And then some people said that the reason why he was apprehended the way he was because they kind of just descended onto him all at once, or seemingly all at once, is because he was gearing up to kill someone again, you know, or there were signs that he was going to strike again. I don't know that that's true, but there were some people that were saying that when he was apprehended in 2023,
- [59:19]
B
you've reminded me of Dennis Rader, BTK, saying that he had to take a break for a few years because life got so busy with the kids and which is, you know, the most mundane excuse we give each other for not calling or not hanging out with old friends and things like that and losing track of hobbies, not going to the gym. But you've just reminded me, you know, life. Life does get busy. And when you've got kids and stuff like that, it's. It's. It's possible that that at least changed his habits and the household habits.
- [59:49]
A
Well, it's interesting, too, because before he was apprehended, you know, when we were still speculating on, like, you know, one killer, two killers, and, you know, like, is it possible that killers can change their MO and it is possible, and they do, and, you know, they adapt and they change and they move places, you know, so that's why people have speculated that maybe he, you know, he owns property in South Carolina. Maybe there was, you know, some crimes connected to him down there. You know, something about Las Vegas. You know, there was a trip out to Las Vegas. So it's all speculation at this point. And I just hope that while he's incarcerated, after the sentence, the sentencing takes place. You know, what often happens is, like, you know, law enforcement can kind of bribe these killers to confess to more and more and more. And I hope, because he has nothing, literally, like, nothing left to lose outside of his life, he's going to be in jail for the rest of his life.
- [60:52]
B
He's going to be in solitary confinement for a lot of time, certainly initially. Right. So he's going to lose even access to conversation to any kind of stimulus like that. Once the trial is over, he loses his access to even his own files and things. I believe so. Yeah, that seems to work sometimes, doesn't it? Just the promise of having police to come in and talk to, just to keep them interested to come and visit.
- [61:15]
A
Oh, yeah. I mean, I have a homicide detective that, you know, we often spoke to, and he would tell me about another killer who they would take out bowling, you know, like, give him wine in an effort to get him to confess or tell them where he buried some of his victims. And if. And I was like, well, what if he was lying, you know, just to get these things? And. And he was like, well, if he's lying, then we wouldn't offer him again. So there was like this thing, this give and take, and they would. And they would almost kind of have like a date with him, like a standing date, like, okay, once every three months, we're gonna do this and you're gonna tell us, you're going to give us some more information. And it was just the stance that they did. So, I mean, I don't. Ethically, I don't know, I can't speak to that. But I mean, if you're giving confession and it's. Yeah. And if it's leading to something, go ahead.
- [62:07]
B
Yeah, I'm really fine with it. And you can see how much you would hang out for that date. As I say, you're in solitary, you're eating prison food. You're in. The reality is, is really with you now, all the excitement of the crimes is behind you. And now you're stuck in jail and the idea that you could get out, have a wine, have a burger, have, you know, every three months.
- [62:28]
A
Yeah. Go bowling. Did you see that? Did you see the. The video of him in court where the. The judge was asking, you know, all of you know, like, do you understand what's happening? And did anyone promise you anything for this? And I was just looking at him and thinking, like, here's this guy with, like, kind of a lisp. He's just kind of just like, ogre this nerd, you know? And I'm like, you have no remorse. You don't seem, you know, it's just very blase, like, oh, yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah, totally. And I'm like, how. It was just so hard for me to reconcile, like, looking at him and thinking like, you've done these, like, these horrible, horrible, terrible things.
- [63:13]
B
But it always is, isn't it? You never see. I've never seen anyone in the dock or anywhere and thought, yep, you look like you murdered that lady.
- [63:22]
A
You look like Ted Bundy was a little bit like. I was like, oh, you look like a murderer.
- [63:26]
B
But even then, he was so charming. Even the judge said, you know, wow, you're a charmer. You could have been a great lawyer. You know, I mean, these. I think Ed Kemper. Ed Kemper was a scary looking dude because he was so huge. But, you know, I. Look, I. I don't think they ever. I can never. I can never reconcile it. Like, I look at their hands and I think, with those hands, you did these things. But I. I can never make it real.
- [63:52]
A
It's sick. And. And there's just this other side. And I think that's why, you know, I think that's why people are intrigued by serial killers. You know, like, it's the. It's the heart of darkness. You know, it's like, it's that. How could you do that? Like, where does. Where do you go? Like, where does. Like, how can you turn your humanity off? You know, you brought up Shannon Gilbert a couple of times, and, you know, I feel like she's gotten a lot of attention for, you know, her disappearance, but there hasn't been a lot of resolution when it comes to what actually happened to her.
- [64:30]
B
Absolutely.
- [64:31]
A
And so that's something that I often like to bring up, but that's a whole different rabbit hole to fall down. But it is one of those things where I feel like not a lot, not enough attention has been placed on what actually happened to Shannon Gilbert.
- [64:55]
B
If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU. Indigenous Australians can contact 13Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org AU. The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded.
- [65:36]
A
They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders
- [65:39]
B
past, present and those emerging.