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Australian True Crime
The Nancy Guthrie Case with Nancy Grace and Ann Burgess - ATC International
00:30:57
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- [00:01]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Everyone is looking for you, mommy, everywhere. We will not rest. Your children will not rest until we are together again.
- [00:13]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Today's show anchor Savannah Guthrie, along with her siblings makes an emotional plea for her mother's return.
- [00:20]
Nancy Grace
And really a truly heart wrenching video.
- [00:27]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
This is Australian True Crime International with Michelle Laurie. On this episode, we're looking into the disappearance of Nancy Guthrie on the night of January 31, 2026. We're now over 100 days into this investigation. We have an 84 year old woman taken violently from her home in Tucson, Arizona in the middle of the night and the offender caught on camera. We have a million dollar award and intense media attention due in part to the fact that the victim's daughter is a very famous journalist. Savannah Guthrie, co host of America's Today show. And yet, according to law enforcement, we have no suspects. It hasn't played out like a normal abduction from the very beginning. The ransom demands are now believed by many to have all been hoaxes. We'll talk to two high profile experts today to find out what they're thinking about the case. Dr. Anne Burgess was part of the team that invented profiling in the basement of the FBI headquarters in Quantico. You've probably seen the series Mindhunter, which is based on that experience. But first we go to firebrand personality and former prosecutor Nancy Grace, who is keeping the pressure on law enforcement in the matter. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation and a warning. This episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [01:56]
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- [02:26]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
nancy, you've said from the very beginning that a vehicle lies at the heart of this mystery. What exactly do you mean by that?
- [02:34]
Nancy Grace
I said early on in the search for Nancy Guthrie and still stand by my claim that vehicles will be extremely important in the search for Nancy Guthrie. Nancy Guthrie did not walk away from her home. She didn't leave on a bicycle. She didn't leave on Foot. She didn't leave on a go kart or unicycle. She had to be put in a vehicle and taken somewhere. She could not walk over 50 yards, according to her family. So there has to be somewhere either in that neighborhood or on the streets surrounding the neighborhood. Video footage of the vehicle containing Nancy Guthrie. Unless she is somehow still secreted in that neighborhood, and after extensive search searches by Pima county sheriffs and the feds, I do not believe she's in the neighborhood dead or alive. Cadaver dogs would have found her body if she were dead. Scent dogs would have found her body if she were alive. Dogs can even smell underwater, for Pete's sake, much less down the street. So she's not in the neighborhood. She's not dead or alive in the neighborhood. She was taken somewhere by vehicle. Get me the surveillance and get it now. Speaking of vehicles, there's an actual live witness placing Brian Kohberger, the mass killer, at the home of a quadruple murder in Idaho. The murders of four beautiful young college students. I don't know his motive, and I don't care about his motive. Not only did he leave a digital footprint placing him there on many occasions leading up to the murders, but a doordash driver was there at the scene delivering a really late night food delivery. And she saw Brian Coburger and his vehicle outside the murder scene the night of the murder, about 30 minutes before the murders go down. Yes, he did it. I believe that vehicles, vehicle dash cams, vehicle surveillance, such as on a Tesla, will come into play in the Nancy Guthrie case just as the doordash driver came into play in the Kohberger case.
- [05:17]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Now, Annie Guthrie has given police a map. What can you tell us about that?
- [05:21]
Nancy Grace
Nancy Guthrie's daughter, in addition to Savannah Guthrie, our friend, one of the hosts on the today show on NBC. The other daughter is Annie Guthrie, and she reportedly gave a map to police that she believes best would detail best. We track the kidnapper's route. This is based on her intimate knowledge of her mother's neighborhood and the streets to which traffic funnels out of the neighborhood. You can't stay in Nancy Guthrie's or any neighborhood. You have to eventually lead by a surface street and then possibly onto an interstate. She gave her best guess, her estimated guess, her opinion as to what route the kidnapper would take. And I think she's probably right. Along the way, there are red lights and businesses that have video cam.
- [06:20]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
How important do you think Annie Guthrie's theory is?
- [06:22]
Nancy Grace
I have been asked many times as a Former felony prosecutor. How much importance I put on family theories? A lot. Who most wants to find Mrs. Guthrie? Her family. Therefore, their theories have the most motivation. They are trying the hardest with their knowledge of their mother, her behavior, her routines, her comings, her goings, routes she may have taken. People that were allowed into her home who would have knowledge of all of that, they know better than anybody. So I always pay attention, rapt attention to family theories.
- [07:09]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
How planned was this kidnapping, do you think?
- [07:12]
Nancy Grace
I have said that Ms. Guthrie's kidnapping was a planned attack. Well, that's very obvious. Number one, she was singled out. There were plenty of people in that neighborhood that could have been kidnapped. Why her? Most likely because she has what people perceive to be a wealthy daughter. She lived alone, Easy target, elderly. They sense she's alone, she's vulnerable. She may have money pick her. But not only that. Video surveillance has emerged of the porch guy who was fiddling and removing her door cam the night she was kidnapped. That guy, he had been there before. Caught on video in early January. There's no telling how many times he cased the home, either going up into the yard or driving by the home, Walking by the home, front sides and back, noticing entries, exits, problems, obstacles, and ways to get around them. He's caught on video days and days before the attack in her front yard at night. So, yes, it was planned. He didn't just fall off the turnip truck in front of her mailbox and say, hey, I'll kidnap the old lady. It was planned. Obviously. Many people have asked, do I believe Nancy Guthrie knew her abductor? That's a tough question. I believe the abductor knew her, knew her patterns, knew her traffic patterns, knew her routine and was most likely watching her home. And had staked out her home for quite a while in advance. So to that extent, knew her. I believe it's entirely possible that the kidnapper was somehow connected to her. Not the that fact family, not her immediate circle, such as the granny nannies, but possibly someone connected to them. Someone not within her tight circle, but on the fringe. It doesn't always have to be the son or the daughter. It could be the delivery person. It could be the black sheep, son, grandson, nephew of one of the granny nannies. It could be the pool repair, the lawn maintenance or landscape son, cousin, nephew that knew Nancy Guthrie lived there. So while it seems like it would be a lot of people to investigate, it's really not. It's under 50 easily.
- [09:55]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
So do you think this kidnapping was carried out by porch guy alone?
- [09:59]
Nancy Grace
I Definitely think there were at least two people involved in Nancy Guthrie's kidnapping. When you watch the porch guy, he seems to be looking off to one side as if he's communicating with someone. And not only that, Savannah Guthrie stated that she believes two of the ransom notes were real. And I do not believe the idiot on the front porch trying to put foliage over the door. Cam could have written an elaborate ransom note that still has evaded authorities. The two do not mesh. Somebody had to have more brains than he did.
- [10:37]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Do you believe this mystery will ever be solved, Nancy?
- [10:40]
Nancy Grace
I absolutely believe the Nancy Guthrie disappearance will be solved. Not only do I believe it, I pray that it be true. I think it will be true.
- [10:56]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Nancy, why are you so passionate about this case?
- [11:00]
Nancy Grace
Number one? Why wouldn't I? Doesn't everybody have a mother and a grandmother? I do. They raised me. Both of them. My grandmother and my mother worked long, hard hours and then took care of me. Ms. Guthrie is a wonderful woman. Savannah, her daughter, is a longtime friend of mine. We work together at Court tv, and she is just as she appears on the Today show, genuine, kind, caring, and also very smart. She is a lawyer by trade. I would challenge anyone not to care about Mrs. Guthrie's case. I think it's impossible. It's hard to look at Ms. Guthrie's picture and not care about her the way anyone would care about their mother or grandmother. And what is more ruthless other than possibly kidnapping a child, kidnapping a granny that can't even walk 50 yards, and most likely beating her in the face at the front porch and making her bleed. I want them caught, and I want them brought to justice.
- [12:20]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
That's Nancy Grace. And you can keep up with Nancy's thoughts on this case and lots of other high profile cases by becoming a subscriber to her YouTube channel. After the break, we talk to profiling pioneer Dr. Ann Burgess. To say that criminal profiling would not exist without Dr. Ann Burgess is. Is not an overstatement. In the early 70s, she teamed up with two FBI agents who were developing an interest in studying convicted serial killers. And the art of criminal profiling was born. Dr. Burgess is still very active in consulting, commentating, and educating, and she joins us to share her thoughts on the Nancy Guthrie case. Dr. Burgess, firstly, I know your expertise. Your life's work really is victims, is talking to victims, working with victims, helping victims to express themselves and learning from that. How does victimology help law enforcement find perpetrators?
- [13:22]
Dr. Ann Burgess
How does victimology help find anyone? I think is the important thing that that's who you have that's who you're looking for. Especially at a homicide, that's generally all you have is the victim. So finding out who she is or he is, why they're there, all of that becomes very important and is the start of your investigation. And I know that's essentially, if you listen to many crime shows, that's exactly what they do is they start off with the victimology. So I think we had help there because my work had always been with victims from the rape study that I had initially done, and because people, especially law enforcement, did not know much about the victim, you know, they're always who did it and let's just find the person, their investigation. So I think we, we tried to help law enforcement as well as other people with getting as much information on the victim as possible and, and start there.
- [14:27]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
And also profiling is about getting a database, isn't it, of working with similar cases. Ideally. I, I've been doing a lot of research on you, of course, and I must admit, I think prior to that I thought profiling was like a magic trick that you guys somehow learned to do. But now I understand that, for example, with a case like the Nancy Guthrie disappearance. Well, am I correct in saying that the unusual nature of the crime makes it difficult to profile, to make predictions, to make guesses.
- [14:58]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right. I mean, and that's a good case to discuss of how hard it is because we have no, very little information. We certainly know information from what family can tell us, but in terms of what happened to her, we don't have anything. And I think that has been very frustrating. And for whatever reason, law enforcement or the people that are directly working at the crime scene have been unwilling to provide that information. I think that's unfortunate because look at how long that's been. And the longer it goes on, the less likely you're going to get any kind of closure in terms of what happened. That's why we don't know very much. And then people are very interested in that.
- [15:45]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
We know a lot about the victim. We know a lot about Nancy Guthrie because her, all of her children have been very focused on getting that information out to us and no doubt to the perpetrators as well. They want them to know that this is a beloved grandmother, that she is a vulnerable person, she has various medical issues, but apart from that, she's a pretty low key lady, isn't she? So we, we know that about her. What does that tell you, if anything, about the perpetrators?
- [16:13]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Well, we're really handicapped also that there have been very few cases that you can use as backup. A lot of times you're looking for the pattern. And most kidnappings are with children or older people or older children, but not anyone 84. So you don't have anything that you can really even compare it to. And for again reasons why they we don't even have crime scene if you will. I guess there's a little bit out there that they've had, but it's very minimal.
- [16:48]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
And even the way it's unfolded has been unusual, hasn't it? I mean they haven't treated and I say they, we'll get to that because it seems to be the most common idea is that there's more than one person. But my understanding is that usually when you've abducted somebody and you want a ransom or something, you treat that person with kid gloves because they're very valuable to you. Whereas in this case we know that not only was she injured at some point because her blood has been found around the house, but they didn't take her medications and things like that. So the way it's unfolded from day one has been unusual, hasn't it?
- [17:23]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right. And the basic question is who would benefit from a case like this? In other words, that gives you some clues. You can't answer that. Who would benefit from somebody where a 84 year old person was missing? Something went very wrong. I think the best that we know is something went so wrong in the, whatever the person who got in there and removed her. We just don't have that, we don't even have what she was wearing. I mean we could, they could show us anything about the crime scene. You'd be able to put some information together, you know, because it, it looks like it was two o' clock in the morning when she was taken out. And everybody would just assume that means that she was sleeping or in, in her own bed. And even if we had, was she in night clothes? Had they dressed her in any way? And then the other important thing is you can look at some background and most of these cases, family is somehow involved and yet they have kind of closed that door. Whether that's by design, we don't know. But they say, oh no, it's, you know, we've cleared the family. Well, that's a strange thing to say because that's not usually the way investigations go. You don't close anything, if you will, until there's something's found.
- [18:55]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Until you know what happened.
- [18:57]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Keep all doors open, so to speak.
- [18:59]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Well, you've said, you know, the first question is who would benefit from, from this crime. And I suppose the second question is, and I know you've asked this question, who would suffer most from this crime? Is another perspective.
- [19:11]
Nancy Grace
Right.
- [19:11]
Dr. Ann Burgess
You generally think a crime of any type of kidnapping, that money is somehow going to be involved. Right?
- [19:18]
Advertisement Voice
Mm.
- [19:18]
Dr. Ann Burgess
But we don't have that. We don't have anybody saying we need X amount of money. There's no ransom, if you will, that's been inferred in any way. So everything that you normally would think about is not there. If anything, it certainly is a new type of case. You have to give it that, whatever it turns out to be. But you have to ask, who's going to benefit from this?
- [19:48]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
There were ransom notes delivered to TMZ and various other places. But am I correct in saying that the thinking now is that all of those were hoaxes?
- [19:56]
Dr. Ann Burgess
I think the ones that they have given us information on have not turned out to be legitimate. I haven't heard anybody say that sounds like a really legitimate ransom note.
- [20:09]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
And there's also a million dollars on the line. There's a million dollar reward.
- [20:13]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Well, right. And the bitcoin. I think a bitcoin was stated. But so much of that could be traced. So who is going to put out something where they think they're going to be identified? That's usually exactly what they don't want. So if you don't have money as a motive, what do you have?
- [20:36]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Hurting people, Hurting somebody. And we guess it's Savannah because she's the most high profile member of the family, but not necessarily Savannah.
- [20:44]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right. I mean, people have been reluctant even to say what they think has happened. I mean, look at this. It's been months now. If there had been any possible lead, it's not there. So where could she be? I mean, the most that people have said because it was Arizona. Well, maybe she was taken to Mexico. Why would that. What would that prove? You know, who would benefit from her going to Mexico? Right.
- [21:17]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Yeah. I think it's great to hear from somebody like you, because I think the rest of us can get really caught up in exciting theories like that. Like what if they took her to Mexico? It's kind of exciting in a way. Sensational. But people like you, Dr. Burgess, you just ask very simple question. Why? Why would that benefit anybody? What would anyone get out of that? How would that help anybody? Who. Who has her? Nancy Grace, we spoke to earlier, she has. She. She talks about the nanny. Nanny? No, Granny nannies. She talks about the granny nannies. And I guess by that she means the various helpers. My Mother's elderly, and she has various helpers come through the house, you know, a couple of times a week to clean, to help her with medications and all sorts of things. So I suppose there is a. A wider circle once we factor in people like that have been to the house. Tradespeople. Goodness knows how many people have been inside that house, really.
- [22:14]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right, right. Yeah. Again, if there was anything to benefit from it. We've tried to exhaust the other possible motives. You know, we do have women or people abducted for sexual reasons. I think they've looked at that and said, there's no way that that is a motive. So it gets you back to the money. Who would benef if there was money involved for ransom? And nothing seems to have happened, which leads me to say something went very wrong between the time they think someone that 2 o' clock in the morning, getting her up and getting her out of the door, something went wrong at that point.
- [22:57]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
So whatever's happening now is not what was planned?
- [23:00]
Dr. Ann Burgess
No, I don't think it was, because nothing has happened. I think there was a plan, and then as it got carried out, something happened. And it has to have been that she got ill or she. Something happened to her.
- [23:18]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
The question is, you know, even whatever's happened, wouldn't you think that if. If it was a planned kidnapping for money, wouldn't they still try and get the money even if they know they're not going to be handing Nancy Guthrie over at any point?
- [23:31]
Dr. Ann Burgess
That's a great question. How are you going to get the money without getting identified? See, that you can't get. You can't take a risk and be identified. That's the purpose of these ransoms. And you know, where to leave it, how to leave it, et cetera, et cetera. So if they had her, somebody had her, they would have carried it out.
- [23:53]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
The other point I've read about is the fact that there's been no proof of life. There's been no suggestion, no offer. Even though Savannah Guthrie and her siblings have said repeatedly they will pay a ransom. And as I say, there is a reward available. No one's offered proof of life.
- [24:09]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right. Nobody's come forward. Right. And I think that's important that they at least did that as a way to certainly try to. They're doing whatever they're being advised to do. I'm sure law enforcement or FBI is helping them with how to respond, if you will. Cause it's such a big media case.
- [24:33]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
There's a lot of conversation around the man in the video, the man who Was filmed at Nancy's front door. Nancy Grace calls him porch guy. There's a lot of conversation around the fact that he seems amateurish. His gun doesn't fit his holster. The holster's in a weird spot. Can you, if not profile this fellow? What are your thoughts about this guy? Is he acting alone? Is he the mastermind?
- [24:57]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Well, I think that's why it's been thrown off. I think that person was put in there to mess up, so to speak. The scene for one possible thing is here, I'll give you some money, you go and just try to get into this house and we'll videotape it. So the person that did it, who is in the video, didn't know anything about it. The other is, could something have happened to whoever set him up? Why haven't we seen him? Has something happened to him? He's been, if you will, kidnapped. In a way. He could have come forward and given a lot of information on this. He didn't. Nobody has. So I think that was a distractor. I think that is something that was added because they couldn't follow through with the original plan as a way to. So that is what makes me. I've always thought that there were multiple people involved that could be a good thing in terms of getting it solved, because you always hope somebody is going to say something. So why haven't they? Have they been removed, if you will, from the scene? So you could really have a more complicated case here.
- [26:17]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
I've read sort of profiling suggestions about this guy, that he is a local guy, that he may have quit his job and left town soon after this happened and all of those things, which makes you wonder how has nobody come forward and said, I think that's someone I know. But then I think about the Delphi case and I mean, that was happened in a community in Delphi and Indiana. The community's only 3,000 people, less than 3,000 people. That man Again was filmed. It was grainy, it wasn't perfect, but we thought for years, surely someone in that community recognises the way that man walks, recognises the outfit. And it took five years for law enforcement to arrest Richard Allen for that crime. So do we overestimate how recognisable people are? Or is it more about how we humans sort of believe someone we know could do something that bad?
- [27:18]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right, that's true. But how about if you had somebody play that role that was from, say, Alaska? I'm just trying to think of some far away place where nobody would recognize him. It has to Be that because I could. I agree with you and others that certainly somebody should have come forward if they could have identified him. So he is just not someone that is known to anybody in the area. So what does that do to thinking he's local? Well, it kind of put cold water on that theory.
- [27:51]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Are you leaning into the mastermind theory? The theory that there is a person who's masterminded all of this, including the fact that Portugal was captured on video?
- [28:00]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Well, if that's so, what's the payoff? Who's to benefit? Is that person benefiting? I don't think that person is benefiting. Again, it goes back to something went very wrong. So if it was a mastermind, it couldn't have been planned very carefully.
- [28:16]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
I didn't say he was a good mastermind. I just meant maybe. Maybe he fancied himself as a mastermind.
- [28:25]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Right.
- [28:26]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Do you, in your vast experience in these cases, do you think it's solvable? I mean, is it? We've got a number of long running cases in Australia where now people say, you know, there were so many mistakes made early on, it's now just exponentially more difficult to ever solve it. What are your thoughts on this one?
- [28:46]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Well, my thoughts are you'd like to say that all cases at some point become solvable. The problem is how many years have to go by for that to happen. For someone to finally come forward that. That I think multiple people were involved, at least two. Gives me more hope that it could be solved more quickly than. Not quickly, I guess, to put it that way. But so much time has gone by and nothing has come up is really troubling. It certainly is a unusual type of case and it's one that we have to look at. I've tried to find. There are a lot of people out there trying to find this type of case, looking for a match, if you will. You always try to match and they can't find anything. Where is any case that's similar to this and there's not been any copycat case again, because what's the benefit?
- [29:45]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
There's people who ask the question, is it somebody who has a grudge against Savannah Guthrie and some journalism that she has done, you know. But I don't know a lot about Savannah because we don't see her here in Australia. But my understanding is she's not that really hardcore investigative journalist. Is she? I mean, is she taking on the mafia or is she taking on people like that in her work?
- [30:07]
Dr. Ann Burgess
Well, and it doesn't have to be her. Could be somebody in her family.
- [30:12]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Yeah, absolutely.
- [30:13]
Dr. Ann Burgess
There's been no dis. It doesn't. Yeah. I think that everybody has looked at her and not given any information about other people in her family. In which you can hurt people, you know, by going after a family member.
- [30:29]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
Yeah.
- [30:30]
Dr. Ann Burgess
That probably is one of the more viable motives.
- [30:40]
Podcast Host (Michelle Laurie)
If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800Respect.org au. Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org au.
- [31:10]
Dr. Ann Burgess
The producers of this podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.