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- [00:01]
A
Last time on Australian True Crime. We spoke to Dr. Xanthi Weston about the so called hospitality wars raging in Melbourne. Firebombings and drive by shootings are rocking the city's entertainment strips, along with WhatsApp threats and allegations of an online marketplace used to connect criminal gangs and young people prepared to carry out attacks for money. Today we're joined by former police member and prolific author Duncan McNab, his take on the situation around the country. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung People of the Kulin Nation. I'll tell you where we can start. A couple of days ago we spoke to Dr. Xanthi Mallett, now known as Dr. Xanthi Weston, about the hospitality wars going on in Melbourne. Nightclubs, restaurants, even a brothel shot up and firebombed and all sorts. And she was saying to us that she thinks it's a lot to do with the importation of illegal alcohol. Maybe the next step up from the tobacco wars.
- [01:09]
B
It's possible, but the problem with the current borrelia In Melbourne, it's 15 plus arsons or attempted arsons in the last fortnight. The problem with that is I've heard the theory about it and a lot of people have run it and there may be some case by case war story in it, but one of the commentators is saying it's about supply of vodka and I can see that in a high volume business like a nightclub, but in a brothel, maybe not.
- [01:42]
A
Well, it's illegal in brothels in Melbourne. I was a brothel receptionist for many years. And alcohol is illegal in brothels.
- [01:48]
B
Yes, yes, God forbid. Some brothels were illegal before they were legalised.
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A
I know, but I do believe that. I mean, I never. I worked in a lot of brothels and that was a rule that was taken very seriously. I know, you know, scoffing at the idea that a brothel would do something
- [02:01]
B
illegal, but I can tell you that up in New South Wales, even in the legal brothels which have been around for quite some time as well, not as groundbreaking as Melbourne on that, but I'm aware of an establishment not far from where I live and it was during the lockdown and I was chatting to the local bottle shop owner and Happy and Natter and he said, thank God the lockdown's being lifted. The brothel is one of our best clients.
- [02:23]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [02:24]
B
Which brothel? He said, the one upstairs. Stupid. No, I did. But the bottom line, the one that surprises me is you've got all those businesses, some of which aren't high volume sales. I mean, I mean the pubs, pubs run legit businesses, otherwise they don't run. I can understand it in a nightclub where there's five volume business that people aren't always sort of scrupulous in how they do business. And some of the alcohol might not be quite what you order. But the one that gets me in all this is they also were looking at firebombing Francois, which is not exactly a huge gin mill. I mean Francois, a lovely place in South Yarra for a glass of wine and a long lunch, but not quite a place that turns over vast amounts of bootleg booze, I would suggest.
- [03:06]
A
No.
- [03:07]
B
And that's the one that got me when I was reading, I said, I've been there to lunch for a couple of times over the years when someone else is paying. If you were trying to, if it was this was all collectively about illicit booze, black market booze, then Francois wouldn't be my target. And that's why I just wonder whether or not they're also different operators using similar systems.
- [03:27]
A
When you say operators, do you mean the criminal operators?
- [03:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, right. Some of them might be targeting the high volume alcohol sales places because they know, well, they want to get their product in there. But when you target decent pubs, you know, just nice pubs in South Melbourne, are they actually looking at and thinking, well, the kids are in the marketplace, there's a bit of a rhythm going on. Why don't we join the bandwagon and see if we can scare a few nightclubs into buying our booze? That's what gets me about this. I can't find a consistent story that works for all the attacks. If I could, I'd be much happier and I'm sure the cops would be delighted. But there's an inconsistency in the premises they're targeting and that's, I think, an issue. Curiously, some of the other pubs, particularly the pubs I've been looking at and the restaurants, haven't got a threat, they've been terrorized. They've got the text message saying, you know, we're going to come and get you and your family, but there's been no follow through. That's what makes me a little bit curious as to is there one singular motive in all these attacks or there are the different operators with slightly different agendas running? So it's extraordinarily strange, I would expect after all this terror campaign over 14 days that someone would have said, and this is what we want from you. And what we missed in these days, it's the most important thing in crimes, as coppers will tell you, is we need the evidence. It's the jigsaw puzzle coming together. We might look at it on the table and think, oh, that's pretty cool. Yeah, this looks good, but we've actually got to get those pieces locking into each other before we've got a. Before we've got an investigation running. And it's really hard for coppers, too, and those involved in it, because if they're using this, I think it's been humorously referred to as crime Tasker.
- [05:01]
A
Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Santhi was talking to us about that, finding young people to do these jobs.
- [05:06]
B
And basically we have something similar in Sydney as well, where the gangs are isolated and they use online services, crim task or other methods to put a job out to bid. You pick up the job and you do it, you get paid for it. But the critical part is that you often don't know who the client is, so it gives them that separation, which is good for business, I'd have to say. Likewise, we're hearing things from the underworld in Sydney where this is also being used. A similar style of thing is being used to commit murders or attempt to commit murders or abductions.
- [05:40]
A
Well, the point that Xanthi raised about it, though, is that oftentimes she thinks they're getting, you know, less than stellar people to do these jobs, that there's a lot of mistakes happening, that there could be people being kidnapped, the wrong person from the wrong house and all these sorts of things. I mean, the calibre of criminal is not great when you go through crime. Tasker.
- [06:02]
B
No, they're paying peanuts and they're getting unskilled labor, to put it bluntly.
- [06:06]
A
Yes.
- [06:07]
B
But one of the. One of the things about this, too, is that the unscrupulous people who are hiring these people really don't care. Back in other parts of the world, crims were very smart in some respects, in that if they do something overt, they want to make sure they don't put a target on their backs. So they were careful. They used professionals. You know, in the grand Australian history of hitmen, we've actually had some very competent players around.
- [06:30]
A
Yes.
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B
Melbourne's gift. Gift of the world. Christopher Dale Flannery.
- [06:33]
A
Yes.
- [06:34]
B
Never, ever got convicted of murder committed. No doubt, quite a few got away with pretty much all of them. He did a bit of time for other offenses. These guys actually understood that they needed to do the Job. Keep the risk to the public to a minimum because the last thing they want is the coppers descending like the hounds of hell on them for endangering the public. Public.
- [06:53]
A
You've got me thinking about a bloke called Rodney Collins who is now suspected of doing a number of underworld murders here in Melbourne. Never convicted of any. Died of cancer.
- [07:04]
B
No. And these people have got some basic skills that I think the contractors don't have at the moment. They're careful in how they do it. They select their target, they do surveillance on them to get their routine sorted out and then they strike at a moment when the target is at its most vulnerable. That's a couple of things come to mind. There's in recently in Sydney, and I think it applies around the countryside. There was a bloke who was targeted by a professional hit team. Anyone who knows Surry Hills in Sydney knows that Surry Hills in Cleveland street is incredibly busy on a Friday night during dinner time. Packed with restaurants, pubs, everyone having a great time. They targeted the bloke. They waited till he drove into a nearby service station after his dinner had finished in Surry Hills. As he was filling up the car, they descended on him, they attacked him, they opened fire. He managed to get away briefly. They chased him up the street and shot at him. Then they disappeared in the ether. And I don't think they've been captured so far. That's professionalism. They know what they're doing. They also know, they know their weapons.
- [08:01]
A
I seem to recall there was a Porsche involved, a stolen Porsche that was then found burnt out, you know, some hours later. But yeah. No weapons.
- [08:08]
B
No. It wouldn't be at all surprising. The criminals today also have a passion for nice cars. And if they're going to commit a crime, they'll usually do it in a Porsche, a Mercedes, Mercedes suv or a Mercedes or an Audi or something of that ilk. It's. It's long gone at the days of the Valiant. Yeah, it's Flannery as to like, but, you know, these people plan it. And these raids in Melbourne, they seem to have a modicum of planning, but not very much. And if you're dealing with kids, and it's interesting that the suggestion is a lot of the offenders are 15 plus 15 to 20 range. There's no common sense, there's no sense of the damage they could do to
- [08:46]
A
the public or themselves.
- [08:47]
B
Or themselves. And what I think the organizers may find useful about this is not only the kids unaware of who they are, but if they are arrested, then they'll go in before, if they're under 18, they'll be dealt with as a juvenile, which has a lot less penalty risk than as an adult. You turn 18, different game. So these kids are also good targets for these people. And I use the word grooming very specifically. They know these criminal figures who use these kids or youths, they groom them deliberately. It's also how gangs work these days and for many, many years for that matter. You pick vulnerable, disenfranchised kids. This is more broadly kids who are looking for a little bit, something a little bit different, get away from the life. Their parents have got them on them and they groom them into these organized crime gangs as well. Bike gangs are doing it now, not 20 years ago. Other organized crime gangs are doing it. And you give the kid a little bit, little bit of something to tantalize him. Can you hang on to this package for tonight? Here's 100 bucks. Don't tell your mom. And step by step they get more and more involved until they're hiding guns under their bed, for example. Then they'll invite them out on a job. And all of a sudden these kids have been enrolled almost in the gangs, groomed into the gang. And then they're getting a glimpse of a lifestyle they've never had. They've got money in their pocket, they've got access to really nice cars, booze and drugs. It's a lifestyle you wouldn't have got in southwest Sydney or in some of the western suburbs of Melbourne. It's all of a sudden this really flash looking life. The consequences don't dawn on them.
- [10:24]
A
No, it's pretty exciting. Can I ask you a potentially controversial question at the same time that I'm reading into all of this stuff to talk to you and Xanthi, I'm reading a book on the Ndranghetta, the Calabrian mafia. And it's got me thinking about similarities and differences and also it's got me wondering what difference it's making in Australia at the moment that it seems as though the, the underworld is being run by Middle eastern families, whereas 20 years ago it was run by more Italian style families. Is that crazy?
- [10:59]
B
It's sort of half there. But the organised crime at the moment in Australia, Nadrangheta. God, I try to pronounce that for 30 years.
- [11:07]
A
I know, right?
- [11:07]
B
Nadrangheta have been with us for a lot of years. And what I think is, not is the case, is that these days, since Griffith, and in part since the Melbourne, the Victoria markets wars back in Gee whiz, let me date myself here. Late 80s, we had some terrible crimes committed in the Victoria market, or people who worked in the Victoria markets. Just some horrific crimes since that time and again that became very public. So the wise old organised criminal figures take a step back again. We don't want to tie it on our back. So I think those organised crime outfits like Ndrangheta Consiglieri is crime facilitators, more your crime consultant.
- [11:51]
A
Yeah, but you. I know that you're talking lately about the rules being changed, the rules changing when it comes to crime, and you're not the only one. A lot of police and former police are saying, you know, there was a time when and there were very clear rules around organised crime about who could be a target and all that stuff, and those rules don't apply anymore. And I guess it's got me wondering, is that because we're dealing with a different culture now?
- [12:16]
B
I think it's a broad brush, to be honest. It's a culture that's changed. It's also a different mix of people. Yes, absolutely. But it's also more money and money drives all these things. I think we did have nothing different in the old days. We had rules. Well, yeah, sort of had rules, but they were pretty much governed by common sense and crims knew that what would happen if they stepped over the line. And back in those days, we had some cops as well who would also step over the line for all the wrong reasons. I always remember when I start talking about this, I've got to stop myself is who would have thought that In Father's Day 1984, the Comancheros and the Bandidos would go to a car park in an innocuous family gathering, you know, barbecue, sausage, sizzles, swapping of parts on bike gloves, and think it's a really good idea to have a barney which resulted in seven dead. So when I talk about how things were different in the old days, I do pause and remember that sometimes it wasn't quite as rosy as we think it is.
- [13:11]
A
Sometimes those neat family rules weren't followed.
- [13:14]
B
Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. A case of greed and testosterone. Not a good mix, but yeah. But I think, broadly speaking, the old Crimson. I used to know Kims, I still know, look at this mob and think, you got it. They're all mad. And for a couple of reasons. The practical reasons is, one, we wouldn't do this because we don't do that. We don't attack people's families, we don't chase people down the streets. On a Friday night, blazing away with guns. You just don't do that. But likewise, they also realize it was bad business for them and Mil Pera. Just as a curious example, we'll get back to what you're talking about. Organized crime security takes it back in the years following Neil Pera Adler Motorcycle gangs with dead quiet. In part because a lot of them have been arrested. Of course, coppers and broadly were thinking, well, that's that done and dusted. Outlaw motorcycle gangs, nothing to see here. They busy for a while, then nothing. What the outlaw motorcycle gangs did. As people became more involved, a couple of things happened. First of all, recruitment went through the roof. Who would have thought that Mill Pera would be a recruiting poster? But it was the bizarre things about it. So numbers increased, people came out of the woodwork. That's all cool. They joined the gangs. The gangs run by some very sensible people, people who are also astute. Business people then started building the gang's businesses around Australia, which is why they became the biggest supplier and logistics manager of drugs in the country. Driven on the back of not heroin. That was something the old guys avoided, which is good. But meth, amphetamine stuff, party drugs. Huge business and party drugs are up. I'm old enough to remember when if you went to a party in Sydney, you always had a reasonable supply of things to keep you awake all night. They boomed. That boomed. Cocaine trade boomed for them. At one stage, I think we had the highest per capita cocaine usage on the planet. We also have the most expensive cocaine on the planet as well. So at one point it was $10,000 per kilo. Ex Mexico, where the cartels control the business streets of Sydney or Melbourne. 250k. And that's before you cut it.
- [15:15]
A
Yeah. Cause it never puts Australians off. Australians love drugs, so the cost does not put us off.
- [15:21]
B
No. And it's also a very small market, so we'll pay top dollar. So the profits are exceptional. So these gangs grew and their tentacles all went around Australia. So we've got great logistics managers. If you're going to bring stuff in, you've got to know how to get rid of it.
- [15:34]
A
They also opened up to different kinds of blokes, didn't they? This is where we started to see the Nike Bikies. The blokes who don't even own a bike.
- [15:41]
B
Yes. I love the Nike Bikies because I used to bump into them at the gym in Sydney, the city gym. And bikies, the traditional bikies. Tattoos, possibly not well clean, not clean shaven. No bling. And a certain, shall we say, fragrance on occasions. The Nike Bikies at the City Juma or A Hoot. They came out of the Nomad gang, which is quite prevalent in Australia. The Nike Bikies were cool because they saw the Cross in Sydney as a massive opportunity. The bike gangs were a little bit disparate at that stage. And the Cross was a crown jewel because that's where most of crims went to organize their crime. Nike Bikies turn up. They're slightly less fragrant, they're buffed, they've got nice bling, they've got lovely almost creased jeans. Nike shoes. Ride a bike. How do you do that? Needs training wheels. They lasted for a little while because people started giggling at them. Oh, they weren't that tough. And they sort of fell apart. But around about the same time, to go back to your point, the cultural changes in the gangs were happening too, back in the old days. Well, the Hell's Angels at their inception flatly refused to have anyone who was black. You had to be absolutely white. And the Bandidos had a couple of people, may have been of Latino descent and one black person when they started, but. And that sort of flowed into Australia as well. It was. We weren't a multicultural gang, so basically all white blokes. Then around about late 90s or so, it started changing. The gangs actively started recruiting into. Not so much the Asian community. That's very different crime gang as well. But they started recruiting people from Middle Eastern origins, the occasional person from Southeast Asia and a lot of boys from the Pacific. Big, buff, hard blokes. And that changed enormously. And you got to the situation where the Comancheros, a locally grown gang originally run by a bloke called Jock Ross who was ex British Army. The Comancheros. By the roundabout, the late 90s, early 2000s, their boss was a black call Mick Howey. H A W y Mick was the new look of Bipe gangs came from southwest Sydney. Utterly different cultural background. Very, very much involved modernizing how the gang's recruited, recruiting also from that broader diaspora in southwest Sydney. Not exactly the same in Melbourne and Brisbane as well. Howie is no longer with us. And this. Sorry, just remember there's a great picture. He took the Comancheros out on a Sydney Harbour cruise. They've got this big flash boat. I wonder where the money came from. Yeah. And all these blokes and their girlfriends down the back, they're all wearing white linen. There's big, big Rolexes, all that sort of Shit. And they're sipping champagne. I thought, how cool is this? But that's the new look bike gangs. Unfortunately, Mr. Howey got arrested for murder at Sydney airport when they decided to bash each other up on a Sunday afternoon. Bad move. And then he was coming out after he got out of prison, he was coming out of his gym, I think fitness first from memory in Rockdale or somewhere. Went the same time every day. This is how you set up a hit, by the way, to get back to work.
- [18:42]
A
This is how you set up your own hit, by the way, is go to the gym the same time every day.
- [18:46]
B
Yeah. Car parks in the same spot and the gym has only got one door. So he came out of that one door and that was the end of Mick.
- [18:54]
A
God.
- [18:55]
B
But again, it was done professionally. They had the exits, they knew what his routine was, they knew where the exits were, they knew he'd come out. They also had a getaway car. You usually have two getaway cars for any aspiring criminal. First, the one you commit the crime in, which you then dump nearby and then hop into the next one. So if you're picked up on CCTV or there's a witness, you've changed cars, so you've cleaned your exit up. Just smart business.
- [19:19]
A
Yeah. But again, something that your average 15 year old, 16 year old might not think about.
- [19:22]
B
They're not that sophisticated thinking. They also might think, oh, it's a bit too much trouble. So. And that's the problem we're facing with these gangs and, you know, different faces, different backgrounds, but the restraint seems to have disappeared. Sure, we did some wild things back in our youth, but the restraint of the current crime crop is seem to disappear. Kids are making that worse because they don't have the common sense, judgment or experience. And they become cannon fodder for organized crime because they're utterly disposable if you're the gang leader. And that's why the face of our crime is changing dramatically. And what we're seeing, which scares the hell out of me, is that all these circumstances come together and we're having crimes in public endangering everybody. It's the wildness and the utter unpredictability of it. And it makes it really hard for police to get intelligence from these organised crime outfits. I mean, it's hard enough traditionally to get information out of an organised crime gang. And if you happen to be undercover in it, you're probably one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet.
- [20:25]
A
Yeah.
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B
I was chatting this morning to my mate Steve Utah, who I wrote Dead man running about 20 years ago, and we're just commenting it was 20 years ago that he actually escaped the bandidos who were trying to kill him because he was undercover and been blown and he landed in Canada, the only place he could get away from him. But getting people like him or other informants into the gangs to get the information we need is becoming increasingly difficult. Hard enough in the old days when if they had even had a whiff about you being undercover or an informant, chances of you ending up dead were very high. They don't believe in beyond reasonable doubt. Not even the balance of probabilities is just a whiff of. But these days too, with the rise of ethnic gangs as well, or changing the recruitment patterns, it's incredibly hard to get a source into the game because you don't look like them. You don't pass this sort of community test that gets you in the initiation rights, you don't pass those. And if you've got gangs using kids 15 to 18 or so, a police undercover is going to look pretty bloody conspicuous. So it's a real challenge for law enforcement.
- [21:34]
A
Who is running Sydney at the moment? Duncan, who? What the hell is going on up there?
- [21:39]
B
I think, well, it's a bit like the old days we always love in Australian history, say the Mr. Big. Yeah. And yeah, and I've always thought, well, that's largely bullshit. There are quite a number of Mr. Bigs depending on what business they're in. And in Sydney, at one stage, the sex workers were being run by Mrs. Big. I think it's multiple people. The certainly the importation of drugs is now becoming more fragmented. But at one point it was being run in conjunction with bike gangs. They were the major suppliers, Southeast Asian crime gangs as well. But the bike gangs tended to be the most significant or people affiliated with them, which can be other gangs. We keep saying, oh, they wouldn't deal with the other one. Bullshit. If there's money involved, they're best friends for the transaction. And then worst enemies five minutes later. It's all in the art of the deal. So I think There are multiple Mr. Bigs around Sydney. It just depends on which particular market you're looking at. Also makes it harder because they're fragmented, harder to police.
- [22:37]
A
Yeah. But it felt like Sydney went really quiet for a while until very recently. Is that right?
- [22:42]
B
Yeah, Sydney was. It had sporadic problems and I think the gang leaders realized that they were making a really big mess for themselves and the cops were getting very, very aggressive. And in New South Wales, we have something Called Strike Force Raptor, which highly visible and one of the successes. It started about Jesus 15 years ago, I suppose, targeted the outlaw motorcycle gangs and it's lot in life was pretty much to make life as a bikie untenable.
- [23:09]
A
Yeah, they wanted to break up bikie gangs around Australia, didn't they? There were all those consorting laws. They weren't allowed to gather in numbers more than whatever. And did it work?
- [23:18]
B
No, but what it. Well, it worked in part. What it did was actually a couple of things. But the coppers tell me it acted as a disincentive to join. It just got too hard and that's a huge bonus. And knowing that they could break things up irritated them enormously. But it's really hard to stop people meeting quietly in the back of a pub and having a conversation about drug importations. But it does cause enormous irritations and it has been on a policing level quite successful. The other great success the copper's had with these people is they managed to fit them out with phones so they could listen in the ANOM app, which is Australian US cooperation, which really upset them beyond all belief.
- [23:58]
A
Talk us through that right from the beginning. What is that?
- [24:00]
B
It's a masterstroke of law enforcement, short story. The outlaw motorcycle gangs and drug dealers, you know, suppliers from Mexico and all that sort of jazz. And this is the US and Australia links. Very heavy years ago. They invented when we had BlackBerry phones, a very enterprising Canadian whose name I think is called Victor Ramos, I may have it slightly wrong, gets a very secure phone app called I think the Phantom secure phone. So you and I, if we're planning a nefarious crime, could talk to each other full in the knowledge that no one could listen in. And of course these things are bulletproof. And they got. It was so good, it went around the world. Australia is a major player in this sort of stuff in gang related drug dealing and that sort of stuff. We are bloody world class and we've always been that strong nation for this sort of stuff. Quite successful as criminals. They started using it, talking to each other internationally. This is where the Drangut also have influence because they could arrange European drug supplies, for example. Arms supplies. They had the contacts, they set the deal up, they take a slice. I think one of the notable ones was in Melbourne quite some time ago, motorcycle gang members, members of the Ndrangheta and so on and so forth. Cans of tomato from Italy imported, containing not much of the way of tomatoes but a hell of a lot in speed and that sort of stuff.
- [25:23]
A
At the time, I believe it was the biggest drug.
- [25:25]
B
Yeah. 600 kilos or something or other because
- [25:28]
A
police intercepted it at the port.
- [25:30]
B
Yeah. And that was in the Dranga to facilitated things. So they put the players together. Good consultancy work. The app has gone worldwide. Everyone loves it, it's fabulous and they think it's great. What they didn't realize is that someone was listening in on it because the. I think the US authorities had cracked it. So they're getting some great stuff. Arrests happen around the the world and everyone's thinking oh shit, this is terrible. One of the big victims of it was a bloke who was one of the major coke importers in the Sydney in America. Owen Hansen, known as O Dog, a beach volleyball player from San Diego as I recall.
- [26:04]
A
Wow.
- [26:04]
B
And he was bringing in shitloads into Sydney and laundering the proceeds substantially through one of the casinos. This wonderful arrangement. You go in, you had them all the money, they give you a credit. Then you go to Las Vegas and get a check. Great work. That all fell apart when someone who was involved in the laundering got into a bit of trouble and lost a lot of money. So around about this time in San Diego they do some more arrests based on all the sort of. Based on the intercepts they've all got. And one of the people they intercepted and caught with a big drug deal says I can probably do you something better. So this very clever soul puts together for the fbida, one of the law enforcement mobs puts together the brand spanking new phone, the Anom app and then using the same network that had been compromised earlier, comes along and says this is how clever some of them are. Sales pitch. Sorry about the last one. This one is guaranteed. I mean you can always see him doing a 30 second grab on Channel 10 in the morning.
- [27:11]
A
Buyer's world.
- [27:12]
B
Yeah. Bit like the bloke from Bar Mix. You can't get wrong with this, it's fabulous. So everyone's. So they pick it up and Australians swarm to it. They love it. It's promoted by a guy called Hakan Ayik who's now in Turkey. As I understand. We're very keen to get Hakan back and a few other common sharer related blokes. It goes around Australia, goes around the us, it goes into the uk Germany, blah blah blah. What they don't realize is they're plotting assassinations, drug deals, gun running, running of people. These guys will do anything for a quid that the coppers are listening on then I think it was in June 21st around the world, coordinated attacks. Lovely to see police forces acting together rather than against each other. Sometimes around the world, same time they
- [27:58]
A
attack and they have massive, wasn't it,
- [28:00]
B
arrests around the world.
- [28:01]
A
Yeah.
- [28:02]
B
And they've got them nailed. In Australia, there were a couple of core challenges as to the validity of the using the app. Was it in the terms of the search warrant? And they lost those. So these cases are now still before the court. Copper scooped up a lot of people around the globe. It was a wonderful bit of police
- [28:19]
A
work and they scooped up a lot of leadership, didn't they as well? Which again, is crucial in this world because normally we know that the lower down the rung you are, the more likely you are to be arrested. The higher up, the less likely. But in this case, it actually worked.
- [28:34]
B
They got some top brass. The only slight problem with that is that these outlaw crime gangs in general, once you lop the top off the head person, there's always going to be someone taking over. We see this in Mexico in the drug cartels, when they arrested Shorty Guzman and everyone's thinking, is that the end? Nah, just business as usual. We got someone else up who then probably gets shot by one of their own people. It's a brutal will, but succession is not always planned. But it's always, someone's going to succeed. Secede. I'm sorry, so both. Yeah. And that's the constant battle against these people. They're smart, they're well resourced, they're resilient, they're powerful.
- [29:12]
A
Did it change the personality of these groups to have the tops lobbed off consistently across such a big network that day of those arrests?
- [29:24]
B
I think after getting over the shock and wondering whether or not some of their senior brass would rat on them as well, that's always a consideration. I mean, but they talk about brotherhood and all that sort of stuff, but the brotherhood dissipates the moment a deal comes your way. Am I going to do 40 years or can I get a discount? They didn't go back to business as usual. They were very scarred by it and there was a dip in their abilities. But, you know, the demand flies on Australia. Come back to us. There's always money to be made here. So you think, oh, will I get caught? Won't I get caught? Let's give it a run.
- [29:57]
A
I think the tobacco wars, or the tobacco, the importation of tobacco into Australia, was that a surprise? Was that. It seems to me, it was a surprise to me that that suddenly became this huge industry and certainly that Australians Took to it the way they have. But was it a surprise to you and to law enforcement, do you think it wasn't?
- [30:17]
B
Well, the, the volume and the recent explosion and publicity around it as well. Sure was quite surprising. I live in the Cross and we've suddenly, I think we've got seven or eight shops that sell illicit cig cigarettes and think why are you here? At the same time there's been importation of. It used to be gray area gray market cigarettes for years and years and years and I think it suddenly became a massive, massive business. The excise on cigarettes has gone through the roof. People even, you know, reasonable people thinking, why would I pay 50 bucks when I can get it for 20?
- [30:50]
A
I always say every mum I know is smoking the illegals. Yeah.
- [30:54]
B
Not unlike with drugs. We've created a demand and organized crime is there to say congratulations, let's move in.
- [31:00]
A
Yeah.
- [31:00]
B
We also had a massive steroid market which I think is diminished slightly as well. And again, outlook organized crime. Broadly thinking, here's another business we can tack on. Steroids were great because you bring them in, you could get caught with them and the penalties were quite low. Illicit tobacco I think is about to change. But bottom line is the penalties, the chance of going to jail for a long time, about zero.
- [31:27]
A
Right. That's what I mean. It feels like it's a no penalty crime. It feels like the people I know who are smoking these cigarettes don't see a penalty and therefore don't see a problem. As you've identified in your neighbourhood in the Cross there are three shops openly selling the cigarettes. In my neighbourhood in suburban western suburbs, Melbourne, there's any number of shops selling it openly.
- [31:46]
B
Yeah. I just look at them, think, how many convenience stores do we need in 500 metres?
- [31:50]
A
Yeah.
- [31:51]
B
Yeah. So we've got a packet of dupes or something or other in the newspaper. That's not what they're there for.
- [31:56]
A
No. And it's not like they're hiding it. You know, you don't need a secret door knock or a secret handshake to get.
- [32:02]
B
And it's also some of them I've noticed us, we'll do a better deal for cash.
- [32:06]
A
Oh, yes. Yep.
- [32:08]
B
You got to wonder whether or not there's a bit of laundering happening.
- [32:11]
A
Yes.
- [32:11]
B
Just I couldn't possibly allege that. But one of the great downsides that one of the big. Apart from in organized crime, the biggest problem is get personally is getting caught. Sure. But the biggest problem for a gang is what to do with the money. And you know, even Though we're changing these days and moving away from a cash economy, which I suspect is presenting some challenges.
- [32:31]
A
Yes.
- [32:31]
B
If you've got bucket loads of cash, what the hell are you going to do with it? Because we've improved our legislation and our banking operations. I can't walk in BMW down the road with 100,000 cash. And if they give me a car, can't do that anymore.
- [32:44]
A
As you said, we're changing. We're becoming a cashless society. So I. My washing machine was working a few months ago, so I had to go down to the Laundromat and I'm thinking, oh, I go to coles and get $20 worth of $1 coins before I go there. And I get there and no, idiot, it's just all tap and go. And I thought, geez, so you can't launder money through a Laundromat anymore?
- [33:03]
B
I mean, that used to be as a curiosity, but just in America at one stage, the Mexican cartels, they were laundering a lot of their money through white goods.
- [33:12]
A
Yeah, right.
- [33:13]
B
It's the ingenuity. The head of the money launderer, she was really good at it. She was. She was in Los Angeles. She'd go to all the white good outlets, buy absolute container loads of washing machines and fridges, send them to Columbia and sell them for cash. Great business these days, I suppose. Tap and go, I suppose, is the way to go for crime these days.
- [33:35]
A
You almost feel sorry for them, Duncan.
- [33:37]
B
No. Yeah. I mean, your local drug dealer will just pull up beside you with one of those little white cubes and say, just tap me if you wouldn't.
- [33:43]
A
Or in the States, Venmo me in the States.
- [33:46]
B
Or it'll go off and it'll go off to a company somewhere.
- [33:49]
A
Yeah, well, you know, homeless people in the States hasn't made it here yet, but I'm sure you've seen it where people in some parts of Asia where homeless people have got their Venmo account on a sign because they know none of us have got cash.
- [34:00]
B
There's actually a bloke in Sydney near Town hall does that, and he's been working it for years. I do appreciate the fact that he's embraced modern technology, but got it on him.
- [34:08]
A
Got it. You got to. I always feel bad I don't have five bucks or two bucks rattling around in my bag anymore. What's going on around the rest of the country. You know, Xanthi and I talked the other day about Melbourne. You're right on top of what's happening in Sydney. But both of you mentioned Brisbane as we were chatting.
- [34:24]
B
Brisbane's always been a significant market, but Brisbane's just very quiet at the moment. I think it's a bit well sorted up there. In the past, we had the Gold coast bike wars, which almost happened.
- [34:35]
A
Yes.
- [34:35]
B
They're keeping a low profile up there.
- [34:37]
A
Does that mean that there's. That no one's squabbling, that everyone's making money? Someone told me about Sydney's, say about three years ago, they said to me, oh, everyone must be making. Making plenty of money in Sydney, because everyone's quiet. There's no battles going on.
- [34:48]
B
Yeah, the battles happen when they're all making plenty of money, and that's good. And it works for a couple of years. And human nature, greed. They're making a bit more than we are. Let's just give it an. And they look a bit weak at the moment, so let's give it a bit of a nudge, which is why In Sydney about 10, 12 years ago, we had all these turf wars, tattoo parlors being shot up. What a surprise. Or just edging in on each other, saying, if we can give you a big push. The moment they see weakness, the moment they see significant arrests as well, they think, well, there's a vulnerability. Let's have a crack at it. It's all about money. And they think they can get away with it. Brisbane seems to have been fairly well behaved over the last couple of years, so let's hope it stays that way a bit longer. It was intriguing at one point because it was also the amphetamine cooking capital of Australia.
- [35:36]
A
Brisbane.
- [35:37]
B
Yeah. Used to be Victoria, back in the old days when it first arrived. 1977, when the hell's Angels family recipe arrived in Australia, and they were cooking away merrily up in northeast Melbourne, up in the farmlands there. The cops did a good job putting that down. Actually, they broke that up fairly nicely. Queensland, up in southeast Queensland, up in those lovely rolling countryside behind the sunshine coast, became Myth Lab central. I think there's. I remember a quirky stat which I always enjoyed. The largest number of facial burns at emergency in Australia was always in southeast Queensland, because there is a moment in the meth cooking process which in those days involved going to every chemist shop you could find, buying every bit of.
- [36:20]
A
Oh, the sudies. Yeah, the Sudafed.
- [36:23]
B
Take it up, take it to the factory that they've set up in rolling countryside that no one can see. And in the process of extraction, there was a moment where, if you're not astute, take your eyes off it or use too much of your own product, something may go slightly wrong. And it was this weird figure that so many facial burns are coming into Southeast Queensland emergency units. I wonder why.
- [36:45]
A
Oh, God.
- [36:46]
B
How awful that I've sort of dawned on people that the big burly bloke with the nasty burns might have had another job.
- [36:52]
A
Oh, God. Speaking of big burly blokes, earlier this year, Kazi Hammered was arrested in Iraq, which we spoke to Xanthi a little bit about the other day, and we were talking about what another. What a great moment of policing that was between the two jurisdictions, Australian Federal Police and Iraqi Police. Is there anything to the fact that since. So he's arrested in 2026 and he's been accused of running a huge criminal network from Iraq, a huge network in Australia, and then, since then we've had these arson attacks. Do you think those things are related? Are we talking about a new boss and a new way of thinking, a new way of doing things?
- [37:33]
B
I really don't know. I've read all the reports and I'm trying to sort of get them together, but it's still missing. The void of evidence is still significant and I always get a little scared when people say, yeah, we've got them now. Confirmation bias is a terrible thing in an investigation. When you think you've got them, let the evidence get them to. If you start with an assumption, which is, I think what a lot of this might be based on, getting it to reality is a whole different ballpark. So I prefer the reverse. I got an idea it might be you. You're really interesting. I got a list of four or five people, but I'll let the evidence walk me towards it. Journalists do it as well all the time. Coppers do it. And that's how the great mis injustices also happen. Every major stuff up I've investigated, either for defence or policing, and looking at it, you think you had your eye on the wrong ball. I always remember a bloke called Scott Austick in Western Australia who finally was released after 12 years for a crime he didn't commit. There was an assumption very early on that he was the P. So they worked all their evidence towards him. So in the case of Hammett, it's a theory you'd certainly have foremost in your mind. But gee whiz, there are other players, there are other opportunists kicking around. I think it was great, great work between Australia and Iraq and I think we're seeing. It was curious, all the gangs when they first started moving offshore either to get away from a bit of heat or to expand their empires. I mean, the first stop was always Thailand. Thailand and Bali, incredibly popular, sunny place for shady people. Boomtish, that's where they went first. And then in the last decade or so they 10 to 15 years they've seems to be they've left Thailand, which is doing a fairly good job saying don't do this. They then went to. Went to the Middle East. It was convenient for a lot of reasons. There were some in Spain, but the Middle east is that sort of hub. Middle East, Turkey and a couple of Melbourne blokes went to Greece after they went to Middle east as well. And the Middle east became a haven for these guys. You know, not a bad lifestyle, lots of bling strutting around.
- [39:41]
A
But Iraq, I mean, it seems to us that Iraq is the last place you'd go.
- [39:46]
B
I would suggest that he might have got a bit too warm somewhere else, so he went to Iraq where he thought it might be really safe, not realizing the Iraqis don't like it anymore. Anyway, Middle east is becoming less comfortable for these organized crime figures. And last tip I got, there was one suggestion I read last week. Well, they're thinking they're looking at parts of Africa and the Central Asian republics as a haven for them, but it doesn't give them the lifestyle they want. I mean, it's a bit hard to drive your Lamborghini through Nigeria. It's not the right look. The last word I heard was that they're eyeing Thailand again but trying to keep a really, really low profile this time. These offshore places are good for them because it can also help them expand their work into Europe particularly.
- [40:29]
A
Put Bali into context for us, Duncan, because a few things have happened there in the last couple of years. One is that a lot of Russians, wealthy Russians, have moved into Bali since some people say oligarchs and criminals. I'm not in a position to say. And the other thing is we've seen, we saw a hit carried out in Bali.
- [40:51]
B
Yeah, I think broadly on the Russian. Unsavoury people you wouldn't like to spend time with.
- [40:56]
A
No.
- [40:57]
B
They're also proliferated in Thailand, which also was saying maybe not. Bali was easy going. Get in there. Far be it for me to suggest that some of the law enforcement may be malleable if the money's right or look the other way. Heaven forbid. Bali's close for an Australian area, it's really close to Australia. Even though this is extradition, you've got to do something pretty stupid.
- [41:24]
A
But isn't it extraordinary that we had a gangland hit in Bali centred around three Australians, victims Australian. And the two men who have been and arrested are Australian.
- [41:34]
B
Bizarrely, I see a reason for it, really. If you do it in Australia, your chances are you'll have the coppers on you like the hounds of hell. In Bali, there may be some ways to navigate that, but likewise, you also know where the person is. They're comfortable, they're on holidays. Yes. They've got a drink with a sort of bit of fruit hanging out the top of it in their hand. They're lying down beside the pool. They're really vulnerable. And the trick if they're planning it well, with any hit on somebody is make sure they're vulnerable when they're lying beside the pool when they're getting into their car. Like Nick, how he found out. Or bike gangs. Used to love airports.
- [42:10]
A
Yes.
- [42:10]
B
I think the safest place in the world. You'd think.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah.
- [42:13]
B
But exactly which door they're coming out.
- [42:15]
A
So there's no speculation and we're sort of off our. Off our guard because it's a chaotic place, there's just lots of strangers around. Yep.
- [42:22]
B
So. And if you're a crim on holidays in Australia, you might be looking over your shoulder.
- [42:26]
A
Yeah.
- [42:27]
B
But in Bali, you're thinking you're just looking over your shoulder to get the next drink.
- [42:30]
A
I tell you what, those two blokes they've nicked for that crime in Bali have got a bit of the crime tasker about them. From my perspective, they don't seem like professionals to me.
- [42:39]
B
No. Sort of cheap, nasty and a lot of bravado. We think we can get away with it and you can't. I mean, the good hitmen are the ones you never, ever hear about. I remember just as a young detective, I met one once and I had no idea. And it wasn't until after we I'd gone off, the bloke who introduced me to him said, you know what he does for a living, don't you? And I said, he told me he was a lobster fisherman. He said, oh, yeah, that the chicken wire comes in handy. Yeah. And then I found out what he actually did do. But personable, easygoing. Not for a moment would you think he had a second job which was more lucrative than lobster fishing. They're the good ones. But, you know, blokes like those in Bali, I think you're right. This on the cheap, not really bright. And it pays for their holidays and
- [43:27]
A
it feels like whomever hired them doesn't care whether they get caught or not,
- [43:32]
B
just caused them damage. And bottom line is, in this business, if you buy the cheapest and the nastiest, then you'll get a really rotten result.
- [43:47]
A
If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org AU. Indigenous Australians can contact 13Yarn on 139276 or 13yarn.org AU.
- [44:17]
B
The producers of Biscuit Podcast recognise the traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.