The Young Woman a Country Town Didn’t Believe

Summary

Podcast Summary: Australian True Crime – "The Young Woman a Country Town Didn’t Believe"

Date: March 15, 2026
Host: Meshel Laurie
Guests: Andy Burns, Charlotte King (hosts of the "Hometown Boys" podcast)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the harrowing true story of "Elise," a young woman from Balmoral, a tight-knit farming community in western Victoria, who reported being raped by two men at a local party. Despite overwhelming evidence and two guilty verdicts in court, Elise was largely shunned by her community, while the accused received robust support from townsfolk, including adults in positions of power. The hosts, joined by investigative journalists Andy Burns and Charlotte King, discuss the case as told in their ABC podcast "Hometown Boys" and reflect on broader themes of small-town culture, rape myths, victim-blaming, and the complexities of justice in insular communities.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Psychology of Community Denial and Support for Accused

• Community Loyalty and Rationalisation
  • The core idea is that denying the possibility "our boys" could do wrong is a way for the community to protect its identity.
    • “We want to rationalise the good men...how do we do that? We other the victim.” — Meshel Laurie (00:00)
  • The myth of false accusations is persistent despite evidence to the contrary and is even seen in urban or elite sporting cultures.
  • Historical/biblical roots of “cry rape” and its enduring cultural relevance.

2. The Night of the Assault and Elise’s Experience

• The party atmosphere was described as wholesome, intergenerational, and familiar—a “safe” setting that set up the profound sense of betrayal.
• Details of the assault are provided (see Timestamps and Quotes section). Elise’s own testimony is included, highlighting her trauma in the immediate aftermath.

3. Institutional and Social Responses

• Immediate Response:
  • Elise was supported by a nurse and friend, Lisa, who insisted on going to the police, despite her spouse's hesitance:
    • “Do we really need to involve the police?” — Lisa’s husband via Charlotte King (13:54)
• Community Isolation:
  • Elise’s close circle evaporated; no friends checked in, and the dominant social response was to close ranks around the accused.
  • Social media posts and continued inclusion of the accused in sports teams highlighted the community’s shifting loyalties.
• Family and Social Ties:
  • The accused and key witnesses are entangled by family and close personal bonds—affecting perceptions and reactions.
  • Strong football culture and “good family” vs. “bad family” reputations influenced the community’s defense of the perpetrators.

4. Policing and Legal Process

• The police, particularly Detective Alison, took Elise’s case seriously—towing the assault site (the caravan) for forensic analysis and conducting thorough interviews.
• The court case was marked by key witnesses (including Lisa and her daughter Rosie) being notably unsupportive or inconsistent in testimony—possibly reflecting community pressure or personal conflict.
• Witnesses sometimes physically sided with the accused at court, further reflecting the fracture.

5. Trials, Appeals, and Sentencing

• First Trial: Both men convicted; sentences of ~5 years, with audible emotional shock in the courtroom upon hearing the verdict.
  • “I've never heard anything like this in my life.” — Andy Burns (34:01)
• Appeal and Retrial: Lisa provided a “bombshell” statement after the original conviction (claiming Elise may have consented to one man), not previously mentioned, leading to a retrial. Suspicion was cast on the motivation and timing of this evidence.
• Second Trial: Again, both men were found guilty, but sentencing was controversial—only serving time already completed, due to COVID delays and community support. The DPP (Director of Public Prosecutions) deemed the sentence “manifestly inadequate” but a subsequent appeal upheld it due to “exceptional circumstances,” including character references and rehabilitation prospects.

6. Broader Social Commentary and Legislative Impact

• In the aftermath, community attitudes remained largely unchanged—victim blaming persisted, and the football club acted only minimally.
• The power of “good bloke” character references (over 40 were tendered) prompted legal reform: character references are now to be excluded from consideration in sentencing for sexual offences in Victoria.
• The case has since been used as a teaching tool in local schools and prompted regional conversation about consent, sexual violence, and the culture of silence.

7. Moments of Courage and Reflection

• Unique voices, such as “Twiggy,” a local man, articulated the conflict and complicity experienced within close communities:
  • “Luke and Sean completely fucked up and did something horrendous and atrocious... I'm still part of this club... You can’t just shut away.” — Twiggy (56:10)
• Meshel Laurie and the guests reflect on the difficulty and bravery of speaking out in isolated places, and the import of sparking dialogue, even if cultural change is slow.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments with Timestamps

On Denial, Victim-Blaming, and “Our Boys” Mythology

• “We want to rationalise the good men...so we have to rationalise this and how do we do that? We other the victim.” — Meshel Laurie (00:00)
• “Well, as a lawyer said in one of the court cases, women do cry rape sometimes...fundamental kind of mistrust.” — Andy Burns (03:07)
• “Very, very rare to actually have a false accusation.” — Michelle Laurie (03:49)
• “Who would put themselves through this?” — Andy Burns (03:59)

Elise’s Voice and Trauma [Graphic]

• “Once I realized where their hands were going and the intention of what was like, going to happen, it, like. Yeah, it was not good. It was pretty brutal. Yeah, yeah. Everyone knows what happened.” — Elise (10:37)
• “It was the way they were talking to each other and about me that just made me feel sick to my stomach.” — Elise (11:32)
• “I didn't even know how to describe the emotions...It was horrific.”—Elise (12:22)

Policing, Testimony, and Court

• “She was so great with that in the interview. Like, I was surprised that she was happy to...” — Charlotte King, discussing Elise’s willingness to recount the ordeal for police (14:26)
• “I would stand anywhere, you know... I'd rather stand on hot coals than stand next to a rapist, to be honest with you.” — Andy Burns (27:48)

Courtroom Emotional Toll

• “…audible distress from the courtroom as voices cry out in horror.” — Charlotte King describing verdict delivery (33:14)
  • “This is just the ripple effect, you know, playing out.” — Michelle Laurie (34:08)

Difficulty of Social Change, Complexity of Small Communities

• “...the first time that we heard it, we were like, oh, my God. It was gut wrenching, really.” — Michelle Laurie (33:58)
• “It's really hard to accept that we could have raised a bully or indeed a rapist.” — Andy Burns (50:37)
• “If you've been convicted of rape, you're not a good bloke.” — Victorian Premier, cited by Michelle Laurie (53:19)
• “For me it's been frustrating...we don't see the accountability within that club to go, actually. What are you talking about? Let's have a, you know, a good hard look at this.” — Michelle Laurie (65:01)

On Allies and Speaking Out

• “Luke and Sean completely fucked up and did something horrendous and atrocious... I'm still part of this club and so many people that did support the rapists are still part of the club...” — Twiggy (56:10)
• “He needed to say it for his own soul kind of thing.” — Charlotte King about Twiggy’s brave interview (59:16)

On Cultural Legacy and Teaching

• “We know that the podcast is being used as a teaching tool at the Eden Hope College...the kids were all listening to it.” — Michelle Laurie (67:38)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–04:38 – Introduction: “Our boys” psychology, victim-blaming, rarity of false accusations
• 06:30–12:42 – Party dynamics, sequence of events, Elise’s account of the assault
• 13:01–15:22 – Aftermath: seeking help, police involvement, the intrusive evidence-gathering process
• 16:25–19:50 – Elise’s social isolation, community allegiances, impact of family standing
• 20:21–23:35 – Shift in witness support, information vacuum, men’s narrative becoming dominant
• 24:58–32:07 – Legal process: court, inconsistent witness statements, police/prosecution challenges
• 34:08–36:01 – Courtroom grief; post-verdict backlash against Elise
• 38:11–41:36 – Appeal and retrial, new (previously undisclosed) statements from Lisa, legal maneuvering
• 46:11–50:22 – Second prosecution, controversial sentencing, use of character references
• 52:26–54:39 – Legislative reform: exclusion of character references in sentencing
• 55:14–58:41 – Community attitudes, intergenerational victim-blaming, internalised misogyny, “Twiggy’s” perspective
• 65:01–67:54 – Football culture, lack of institutional accountability, efforts at change and teaching

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Reflections and Takeaways

• The episode highlights how sexual violence, disbelief, and victim-blaming are not confined to one “backwards” town but are widespread, woven into the fabric of sporting, familial, and rural traditions.
• The ripple effects for victims extend far beyond the legal process—ostracization and trauma are compounded by community denial.
• Small positive changes—legal reform, increased conversation, new teaching tools—are part of the legacy of Elise’s case, empowered by her testimony and brave reporting.
• The voices of allies, however rare, remain critical for hope and change.
• Ultimately, as the hosts observe, “That's something that Hometown Boys really touches on: the idea that it couldn't be our boys, because that's a reflection on us.” (00:00/19:19)

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This summary omits ad breaks and procedural wrap-up as requested. For more detailed personal support or resources, see episode notes or visit 1-800-RESPECT.

Transcript

[Michelle Laurie]

We want to rationalise the good men. We want to be able to understand our position in the world in relation to that. And that's something that Hometown Boys really touches on, is this idea that it couldn't be our boys, because that's a reflection on us. And so we have to rationalise this and how do we do that? We other the victim.

[Andy Burns]

This is Australian True Crime with Michelle Laurie. Balmoral is a small farming town in western Victoria, the kind of place where everyone knows each other and local football sits at the heart of the community. In 2016, a young woman we're calling Elise reported that she'd been sexually assaulted while attending a birthday party. What followed was a case that would divide the town, with Elise and her family saying they felt increasingly isolated. While many locals publicly supported the two men accused of the attack, though two separate juries ultimately found the men guilty of rape. The story is the focus of the ABC podcast Hometown Boys, hosted by journalists Andy Burns and Charlotte King. They join us to talk about what they uncovered while investigating the case and the impact it's had on the community. This is Australian True Crime. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast is created, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation, and a warning that this episode of the podcast contains graphic descriptions of sexual violence. I guess the danger is to look at this story and think, oh, that's just a really weird town. Balmoral in Victoria, this small town is a weird joint and this terrible thing happened there. But I found a lot to relate to in the story. I mean, I did grow up in the country, but still.

[Michelle Laurie]

Oh, where?

[Andy Burns]

Toowoomba in Queensland. Oh, Toowoomba, Yeah. So it's much bigger than Balmorra, but the whole footy valley vibe, you know, is still is very big there, the sporting teams and the families that are dominant.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I don't think Balmoral is unique. And it's certainly become very clear since the podcast that it's resonated with people who grew up in regional areas across the country.

[Andy Burns]

But can I tell you something? I just remembered I working in radio, you work with a lot of footy players, professional footy players. And I remember maybe 10 years ago, a guy who I like very much, professional footy star, telling us that they had sessions at the club about how to treat women. And the big takeaway that he got out of it was, if you have sex with a woman, you get the taxi, you make sure she gets home safely, text her in the morning, maybe send her some flowers. You don't want her to walk away with a negative feeling of the experience. Cause she might say something happened.

[Charlotte King]

I've heard this a few times.

[Andy Burns]

Right. So this is not a country town. These are not kids. This is, this is. These are grown men.

[Charlotte King]

There's a lot of universal ideas that we touch on in the podcast and I think that's why people are enjoying it. And. Absolutely. It's not unique to Balmoral.

[Andy Burns]

Well, as a lawyer said in one of the court cases, women do cry rape sometimes. So there's that fundamental kind of mistrust of.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, it goes. This is tale as old as time, you know, goes right back to.

[Charlotte King]

Well, that's actually a biblical reference. Cry rape.

[Andy Burns]

It's.

[Charlotte King]

Is it really? Yep, it goes right back to the Bible. So it's amazing that we're still hearing that term or that phrase in a modern courtroom because it's. Yeah, it's to do with the biblical story of like, Potiphar's wife, like, being like, told. No. Basically by this young, handsome slave. And then because she's embarrassed and she says, oh, he tried to rape me.

[Andy Burns]

Wow. God, that is deeply ingrained in our culture, isn't it?

[Michelle Laurie]

And also, like, for the record, you know, very, very rare to actually have a false accusation.

[Andy Burns]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Laurie]

Like, who would put themselves through this?

[Andy Burns]

It's far more common for women not to report.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

Far more. Because. Yeah. Who would put themselves through. We all know, we're all very well educated in the pitfalls of accusing someone of raping us. When, you know, you have to go and have these examinations that are humiliating. You have to have interviews with the police that are humiliating. If it ever gets to court, they will tear you apart. They will try and make out that either you're lying or you're a slut or who among us would put ourselves through that?

[Michelle Laurie]

It's horrendous.

[Andy Burns]

Voluntarily.

[Michelle Laurie]

And yet people are so quick to pick up that narrative and go, oh, well, you know, which kind of amazes me still.

[Andy Burns]

Well, it happened recently in Melbourne, didn't it, in a high profile case where a woman accused a footy player from a great family of raping her and he was convicted. But there was still. There's a very strong thread of.

[Charlotte King]

Really, I think there's still this idea that that woman has to be a certain, like, character or worth certain amount to damage the reputation of this. This man.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

And are we gonna, we're gonna weigh that up, like, hold on a minute. This is gonna be really bad for him. So is that. Is it worth it?

[Andy Burns]

Is it worth it?

[Charlotte King]

Like, who is this woman? What's her character like?

[Andy Burns]

Because he is a great football player.

[Charlotte King]

Exactly.

[Andy Burns]

From a great family.

[Charlotte King]

We value him.

[Michelle Laurie]

And not just that, we want to rationalise the good men, we want to be able to understand our position in the world in relation to that. And that's something that hometown boys really touches on, is this idea of that it couldn't be our boys because that's a reflection on us. And so we have to rationalise this. And how do we do that? We other the victim. I did actually try to reach out to the informant in the case, the police officer, and she is in the podcast. Alison.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

Just the most brilliant woman.

[Andy Burns]

Well, she works in sex crimes in regional policing, so that I can imagine is an intense job and one in which you need to be pretty down to earth.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, Salt to the earth. Yeah, just great. But so straightie. 180, like letter of the law. And so I remember trying to reach her one day and just ask her, like, is this a thing? Like, is this just over egged or. And she was like, I can't talk about anything because it's ongoing. And I just remember saying to her, if this is something that should be looked at, like if this is a thing where this town has turned its back on this victim, just don't say anything. And there was a silence.

[Andy Burns]

Oh, wow. All right, let's begin. Tell us about what happened. Our victim is called Elise in the podcast. She is in the podcast. This woman is speaking for herself in the podcast and telling her own story, which is brilliant. This is a party in town, isn't it? A few years after high school. So by this stage, all the players have left high school. Some are working, Elise is at uni and it's sort of a reunion at someone's 21st. Right.

[Charlotte King]

You know, they've got music, fire pits, everyone's having a great time. We talk about in the podcast how there's this picture frame being handed around and every. Everyone's taking happy snaps in the inside the frame and it just looks like a really lovely time. And Elise, when she's talking about the, you know, early part of the night, says same thing. It was so lovely to catch up with everyone. Everyone's having a laugh, you know, mucking around. So there's absolutely no, nothing to indicate that anyone is in any danger at all. These are all people that they've known for years, you know, very trusted.

[Andy Burns]

There's parents there too, isn't it?

[Michelle Laurie]

There's oldies, different generations, a joint 60th as well. So the dad and this friend from school's joint party. So, yeah, there were generations there.

[Andy Burns]

It sounds incredibly wholesome. Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

Elise has been asked to stay overnight so she can help cook a breakfast, like a fry up in the morning. So she's brought her swag, but in the wee hours of the morning, her friend, whose birthday party it is, says, hey, sleep in the caravan. Don't worry about your swag. And she's like, all right, well, I'm ready for bed now, kind of thing. And so they head on in and she's pretty wasted. The birthday girl ends up sort of half asleep on the bed with Elise when all these other, like, not kids, but, you know, boys that they'd known from class come in and they're really rowdy and mucking about in the caravan, drunk, you know, rocking it up and down. And around that time is when the birthday girl gets taken out by her partner, back into, inside, into bed. But most of the crew that's in the caravan sort of drifts in and out and then suddenly Elise is on the bed where she'd been with her, with her girlfriend, but she's left in the caravan with these two guys.

[Andy Burns]

Everyone else drifted off. Right.

[Charlotte King]

And everyone else is gone.

[Andy Burns]

Around that time, the people were drifting off. These two, Luke and Sean, were watching porn, I guess, on a phone.

[Charlotte King]

Luke was watching porn with this other guy who was actually the boyfriend of the 21st birthday girl. We weren't able to verify whether Sean was involved in that. But, yeah, there's court testimony around the porn watching. And I don't know what they were watching, but it was making them laugh and they would.

[Andy Burns]

It feels ominous because I think sometimes people. I'm going to say, boys, I'm going to be sexist, try to make light of it, but I personally find it unsafe, yucky. Like, I feel like it's sexualizing an environment and I don't want to be in a sexualized environment. I've been in workplaces where, like years ago, the Pam and Tommy video came out, you know, and everyone in the radio station was gathered in a room watching it. And I wandered in, like, what's going on? And it just felt immediately dangerous, even though it wasn't. But, yeah, yeah, it's a vibe, right?

[Michelle Laurie]

It's not.

[Charlotte King]

It's not a great vibe.

[Andy Burns]

No.

[Charlotte King]

But, yeah, so that's happening as the rowdiness in the caravan at the same time. Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

And then people just wander out as they do wander home, whatever. But she's then in the caravan with the two boys, Luke and Sean.

[Charlotte King]

Yep.

[Andy Burns]

Now, we have two options here. Would you like me, Would you like to tell us what happened, or would you like us to drop in a grab from the show?

[Charlotte King]

I can play the show. We think it's important to describe exactly what happened next, but it does contain details of sexual assault, so if it's too much, just skip forward. When Luke gets onto the bed beside Elise, she immediately rolls away from him, but she comes up against Sean because he's on her other side. Luke suggests a threesome and Elise says, no, no way. And then Luke puts his hands under her shirt and she says no and tries to elbow him away. Now Sean has his hand inside Elise's underpants and he's kissing her face and neck.

[Elise (Victim)]

Once I realized where their hands were going and the intention of what was, like, going to happen, it, like. Yeah, it was not good. It was not good. Yeah, it was pretty brutal. Yeah, yeah. Everyone knows what happened.

[Charlotte King]

Like, gets up on his knees and he pulls off Elisa's jeans and he rapes her. While this is occurring, Sean has a hold of Elise's hand and places it on his penis. Immediately after Luke finishes, he leaves the caravan.

[Elise (Victim)]

It was the way they were talking to each other and about me that just made me feel sick to my stomach.

[Charlotte King]

And just before he exits, he turns to Sean and he mutters something along the lines of, she's all yours, you

[Elise (Victim)]

know, I'm all done, your turn now. And he just left the door wide open, like there's zero care.

[Charlotte King]

Elise tries to roll into the blankets but is unsuccessful. Sean takes his turn next and stops only when Elise pushes with all her might against his chest. And then Sean gets up and he leaves the caravan too and joins Luke outside by the fire before they both walk home together.

[Elise (Victim)]

And then they left door open. Nothing. I didn't even know where I like, I like. It was just my head was. I was just. I don't even know how to describe the emotions that I went through in those minutes. It was horrific.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

Directly after she's been raped by two friends at a party. She started calling her friends. She's alone in the caravan by this stage. She's thinking, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do. She starts calling people four in the morning, something. So Rosie, her friend, answers, according to

[Charlotte King]

Rosie's original statement, she's crying uncontrollably. She's saying things like, I didn't want it to happen.

[Andy Burns]

And Rosie's mum, which seems like A great thing is the district nurse. She's a nurse. So Elise knows this lady and also knows that professionally she will help her.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

And they get in the car and they go straight over there and they pick her up. What happens after that? The conversations and things that happen in the car and all of that becomes very contentious. But in the moment it seems as though it's a great thing that she's picked the right people to call.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

She's been rescued from Lisa's. Rescued her. Taken her back to her own home, wrapped her in blankets and saying to her, we need to go to the police. And I'm just cheering at that point, thinking, what a great woman. Fantastic. Lisa's husband apparently gives it a bit of, oh, can you just leave it alone, don't do anything.

[Charlotte King]

Do we really need to involve the police?

[Andy Burns]

Do we need to involve the police? And Lisa has a go at him, says, yes, we do.

[Charlotte King]

What if it was your daughter?

[Andy Burns]

Right.

[Michelle Laurie]

What if it was Rosie?

[Andy Burns]

Yeah, yeah. So then they go to the police, they do the forensic testing and all that kind of stuff. She also then talks about having to do an interview with the police and talking about how invasive and how detailed that was. And I had to say, and then this finger went there. And then like, this is stuff we don't know if we've never been in that situation is you can't just say, well, they raped me, I don't want to talk about it.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

And she was so great with that in the interview. Like, I was surprised that she was happy to, because I wanted to know about that process, going to the hospital, what happened next. And she was very much like, yeah, well then they did this and then they did this and then I stood over a tarp and I dropped, you know, my hair and my, my clothes were dropped onto the tarp.

[Michelle Laurie]

And almost the, like the cruelty of the mundanity of that process. Like, I remember when we were sort of going through that part of the interview and she was talking about what she wore that night to the party and then that becoming the crime scene evidence, you know, and she's like, I had a nice, you know, my black jeans and a nice top, you know, I wore the denim jacket and it was just like, this is a 20 year old girl who's, you know, like got her whole life ahead of her and now this stuff is in evidence.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. Pulling on clothes at the start of the night, like, I'll wear this, I'll put band earrings on, like, and then

[Michelle Laurie]

it all just becomes part of this Forensic kind of gathering process.

[Andy Burns]

So everything becomes a crime scene. Then the caravan is actually, actually towed away to Hamilton. So police are taking this completely seriously.

[Charlotte King]

Absolutely, yeah. They're crawling with police.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah. There were locals drove past in the morning after the party. There probably had police tape all around it. Yeah. The caravan was gone from the get go. The police were on it. They were interviewing everybody that was at the party. Most of the witnesses though, obviously were just party goers and nobody was in that caravan at the time except these three people. So all of these witnesses are kind of peripheral to the actual incident. The witness statements were all kind of useless and pointless. Like I was there and I did this and then I went home.

[Charlotte King]

Like, Darcy was quite useful.

[Michelle Laurie]

He's the ex boyfriend of Elise.

[Charlotte King]

You know, he went into the caravan briefly and he saw Shawn sit down on the bed while Elise was there with Cherie, the birthday girl. And she heard, he heard her say to him, fuck off. Like in a like, fuck off. Not in like a fuck off kind of way. But after that, then he left after that and you know, that was the end of it.

[Andy Burns]

Well, you do know that nobody, nobody contacted Elise. Nobody, she says none of her friends, nobody who was at the party, nobody contacted her to say, are you okay? Oh my God. Or anything.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, it, it, I mean, her. I don't think her phone was on and you know, she. But they all knew where she lived.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. And they're all on socials. They could have messaged her, they could have.

[Michelle Laurie]

Nobody popped by as far as I know, to check on her.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. And I mean, I think that she's talking, when she's saying that, she's really talking about her closest friends.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

I mean the classmates who she spent, you know, her adolescence with who just evaporated. So that's where she's directing that at

[Michelle Laurie]

the girls that you do your dead ball with. You know, those girls, and they are at that age even still, I think at 20, they're everything to you because they're kind of all, you know, and

[Andy Burns]

you're still going home a lot. Wherever you work or you're at uni or whatever, everyone still goes home in inverted commas and catches up and. Yeah, yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And that just. Yeah, that evaporated.

[Andy Burns]

Luke and Sean are playing footy. You know, go back to footy. Luke's best on ground. A week later, there's posts, social media posts from the birthday party. The birthday girl just going, oh, God. Thanks everyone for a rip a night. Brilliant. No mention, not that you would mention it on Facebook. But I think I would probably refrain from uploading photos of a party in which my friend was raped. It feels like this is the beginning of the support becoming visible for the two boys rather than for release. I guess the other thing we have to take into account is the influence of the adults, I'll call them all of these people's parents who are all involved because as we've said, the town is small. The community's tight knit families have reputations. Good, bad. If you come from a bad, inadverted commas family that will haunt you no matter how you live your life in a town like that, in a town like where I grew up as well. But if you come from a good family you can basically get away with anything and you're still from the good family. Like that's, that's how it was where I grew up. So we have to remember some of their. I think some of their parents would have been influential in things that they did as well in the way they reacted, the way they showed publicly their support or Lisa, the district nurse, Lisa Hutchins, she's actually related to Luke, one of the offenders, but also very close family friends and close to his mum who was actually in palliative care at this time, Luke's mu. And so that sort of makes everything awkward as well because Lisa's working, you know, with Luke's mum for her palliative care but also very close personally. It's a very sad thing that's happening to Luke's family and I guess this is just something the family doesn't need is probably something people were saying.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, that definitely was being said. Yeah, they've got enough on their plate. You know, Luke's mum was a really big influential member at the football club as well. Like they have a trophy named after her, they have the club person of the Year named after her. She got a posthumous life membership and so it was. Yeah, this is the last thing that Rhonda needs really was the kind of sentiment. I think I would just clarify that Luke Mary Full is related to her husband Tony.

[Andy Burns]

Right.

[Michelle Laurie]

His dad, Luke Merriful's dad. Peter and Tony are first cousins.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. Right.

[Michelle Laurie]

So he's not technically Lisa's relative, but yes, by marriage.

[Andy Burns]

So yeah, not closely related. But there is a moment where she, Lisa uploads a photograph of her children with Luke and captions it my favourites.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, four of my five favourites.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

So she definitely is affectionate towards this young man and increasingly so publicly as the story goes on. Lisa gives a statement to police and she just tells the story that we've heard that you shared with us earlier, that, yes, I picked her up, I took her back to my house, this is what she said, and then took her to the police. Very straightforward.

[Charlotte King]

And the key thing is that she says that Elise told her she'd been raped and that it was Luke and Sean who'd raped her.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. But then Lisa starts. This is where Lisa, kind of the first wobble, I think, is she says to police, but I just don't think Luke's capable.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah, she says that to Geoff Barcham, the community copy, as she's signing her statement. So this is a moment where it's sort of an administrative thing that he's come down to get her signature on this statement that she's already given to Alison, the detective, over the phone. So it's just this sort of throwaway comment after signing it. I don't want to change my statement, but I just don't believe he's guilty of that.

[Michelle Laurie]

I just don't think he could have done that. Yeah, I think was what she said.

[Charlotte King]

And Geoff is sort of just like, sorry, what?

[Michelle Laurie]

Like you're signing a statement to say this is what happened, but then you're also saying this, that you don't believe it. And so the cracks are starting to appear. And that was probably six weeks after the incident. So there'd been some dust settling time, there had been some visits for palliative care. And in court, Lisa talks about speaking with Luke, that his mother asked her to go and speak with him and check on him and see if he was okay, and that he'd said that he had not done it. And so there was sort of a parallel investigation going on there, if you like, taking it upon herself to find out what had occurred from the men's perspective.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. And Lisa talked about that in court, how she had, you know, asked these questions of both the men, both Luke and Sean, about consent, but she'd done that within, you know, the first week or so of it happening, which is, yeah, an interesting decision to basically make those investigations yourself. And I think that, I mean, part of. Part of who she is in the town, in the community, she's a big figure, she's important, People value her, she's an authority. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, it's easy to sort of look at it from your perspective in a. From my perspective in a. In a bigger regional city or, you know, I grew up in Sydney. Like, you know, you wouldn't. You'd be like, police investigation don't get involved, don't ask questions, you know, stay out of it. But this is a small town and it's got its own little world way of working.

[Andy Burns]

And also the police process is slow. Yeah. Like she's. People get impatient and they go, I'm just gonna ask him. Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna go on.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah, I want to know.

[Michelle Laurie]

And at that time that that was happening, the family of the victim were told by police, say nothing, stay home, don't get into any, you know, thing. And obviously it's very difficult for them, like to go down the street. And. And that also meant that there was an information vacuum.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

Which allowed the men's narrative to take hold.

[Andy Burns]

Good point.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so that at the same time is doing the rounds and suddenly that is the dominant narrative.

[Andy Burns]

Of course, they and their families. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

They're telling everybody in sundry what their

[Charlotte King]

story is and nothing's changed. Luke's on the footy field.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Charlotte King]

Sean doesn't live in town at this point, he's in Horsham, but he's working as normal, doing his hunting, camping, fishing, you know, everything. Whereas Elise is hidden away, you know, ashamed and, well, just trying to cope with that.

[Andy Burns]

But, I mean, that's the vibe, isn't it? The vibe is that she's not showing

[Michelle Laurie]

her face and she's shooting and she's losing the information campaign.

[Charlotte King]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

Because it's all political, Right.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so who's out there on the hustings telling the story? Who's got control of the narrative?

[Charlotte King]

And if you see the football club rallying around this guy in particular, Luke, then has the person who's accused him of rape, would you be thinking, well, I'm going to head down and watch the footy. I mean, you're probably going to want to be nowhere near the place. And then. And then it just entrenches this idea that she's got something to hide.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

If you'd like to talk to someone about abuse that's taken place in your life, no matter how long ago it happened, your GP is always a good place to start. If that's not going to work for you, you can contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or via their website, 1-800-Respect.org.au. or you can call Lifeline's 24 hour phone counselling service on 1311. It finally makes it to court. And we know that statistically that is rare for a sexual assault charge to make it to court. So it's great that it does. And we have to say police appear to have done a really great job in investigating this case.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

Alison was fantastic.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. So it gets to court and Lisa Hutchins, the nurse, she is a witness for the prosecution. She just, again, just reiterates what she'd said in her statement, basically. Right. We picked her up and.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah, she does to a point. Although that it has to be coaxed out of her by the prosecutor, actually.

[Andy Burns]

Yes. Wasn't that the case that the judge sort of kicked everyone out for a minute and said, can we talk about this witness? She doesn't seem to be.

[Michelle Laurie]

That was more to do with Rosie.

[Andy Burns]

Right.

[Michelle Laurie]

Than Lisa.

[Andy Burns]

Right.

[Michelle Laurie]

So they were both obviously giving evidence,

[Charlotte King]

but Rosie went first.

[Michelle Laurie]

Rosie went first. And there was like. It seemed to be difficult to pin down what was in her statement.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

To the point where the judge. Yeah. Removed the jury and the witness and said, do we need to have a discussion here about an adverse witness?

[Andy Burns]

Basically, he said he was taken aback by how inconsistent Rosie's evidence is with her original statement.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. So she. She appeared reluctant to, for whatever reason, confirm elements of her statement about how upset Elise was. The kinds of things that she was saying that, you know, they were sort of like, did she say they wouldn't. They wouldn't get out? And then she'd say things like, well, if it's in my statement, it must have happened. But she'd sort of say it in this way. And it's interesting. Cause we've got the tapes of that evidence. Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

We couldn't play it. We had to recreate it for the podcast. But we have seen it and heard the tone and.

[Charlotte King]

And it's.

[Courtroom Audio / Judge]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

And you watch her facial expression and she's. Yeah. She just sort of looks a little bit impatient with the process. Like. Like it's in my statement. I guess it must have happened. That kind of vibe. And the judge is picking up on it and a bit like, hold on a minute, this is not. You're not. This is not consistent with your statement. Your statement's talking about this friend of yours who's sobbing uncontrollably and. And telling you that these guys wouldn't get out when you wanted them to. The caravan. That's not coming through right now. What's coming through is that you're. You. You were she really focused on the point that she wouldn't tell us what had happened.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Charlotte King]

And then there's this key question from the defence team and they say, was it that she was too upset to tell you what had happened or was it for some other reason that she wasn't telling you what had happened? She said it was definitely for some other reason.

[Andy Burns]

People say that when they rolled up to court, a lot of people were physically standing with the two young men, including people who were about to give evidence against them. Like Lisa and Rosa.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah, Alison. That was from Alison, the detective. She noticed that and she thought that was interesting because normally the witnesses and the complainant stand together and that wasn't happening here. So she took note of that as being. This is where the support is.

[Michelle Laurie]

And those witnesses, we did ask, you know, why did you, did you do that? And why? And they just said, we stood where we were told to stand.

[Charlotte King]

So, you know, there's always the possibility that you're reading into it more than you should.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah, but I'd rather stand on hot coals than stand next to a rapist, to be honest with you.

[Charlotte King]

Fair.

[Andy Burns]

I would stand anywhere, you know.

[Charlotte King]

So what if you didn't believe they were a rapist?

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, if this is it, basically the way that that all played out, that adverse witness discussion was that it was too late in the piece to make that call to then turn her into a witness for the defence, essentially, or

[Charlotte King]

to allow to cross examine.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so they just rolled on. Yeah, basically.

[Andy Burns]

But her mum, Lisa wasn't much more helpful, I have to say.

[Michelle Laurie]

When she got in the stand, then the prosecutor seemed to be alive to this fact and was like, okay, we need to make sure that she knows what's in her statement and she won't stray.

[Andy Burns]

And then she's suddenly saying, Elise appeared upset, whereas initially she'd said she was crying. Very upset, very upset. Now she's saying, well, she appeared upset. And she even says, doesn't she specifically? It's not like she was sobbing or anything.

[Michelle Laurie]

There's crying and there's crying, there's a tear on the cheek.

[Charlotte King]

This was more a tear on the cheek. And again, watching the video of that, which we couldn't, you know, play was so fascinating because again, you can see her facial expression and she's exasperated in there. She's just like, oh, this, you know, when will this end? Kind of thing is the vibe.

[Andy Burns]

Well, I think she tried to suggest later that she was frustrated because she wasn't being asked the right questions.

[Charlotte King]

She said she felt badgered and overwhelmed. And of course it wouldn't be easy to be a witness in court, especially when you're from a small community, you know, all these families. None of that is easy. And I'm not suggesting that. But it is. Yeah. It's just her behavior on the stand was interesting.

[Andy Burns]

She eventually admits Elise told her she

[Charlotte King]

was raped, which is what the prosecutor's the bear for. He's like, can you just tell me this one thing, please?

[Andy Burns]

Did she say on that morning when you picked her up that she was raped? Yes, she did. So then the two men give evidence. Sean and Luke give evidence.

[Charlotte King]

It was fascinating to read and listen to the transcripts. Particularly, there's a line in the podcast where. Which really just stopped me in my tracks when I first read it, where the prosecutor is asking Luke on cross examination. You know, just sort of questions, like, you know, if it was because he's like, it was friendly, it was fine. She was comfortable.

[Michelle Laurie]

She.

[Charlotte King]

She. I never heard her say no kind of thing. And he's like, so what? Like, did you say anything to her? Like, no, no, I didn't say anything to her. You know, did you. When you'd finished, did you, like, why did you leave? He's like, well, I wanted a drink of water. And then he's just. He just volunteers this. And he says, well, there was no point staying in the caravan after I've ejaculated. I don't think.

[Andy Burns]

I know.

[Charlotte King]

And it was just like, okay.

[Michelle Laurie]

It was incredibly telling, we thought.

[Charlotte King]

Wasn't it just the entitlement around that. It's like, well, I've got what I've come for, so I'm leaving.

[Andy Burns]

Sean says the threesome was Elise's idea. The idea of having a threesome was Elise's. And Luke, though, takes a stand and admits that it was his idea, that he suggested it.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. I think the defence team described that as a wrinkle in the evidence from Sean.

[Michelle Laurie]

I think the inconsistency was the. The point of it.

[Charlotte King]

I think they wanted to.

[Michelle Laurie]

If it's true, then you would have the same story.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And, you know, I think they made

[Charlotte King]

a decision that, okay, no, we can't go with that, with what Sean says, which is that it's Elisa's idea, because clearly it wasn't. And it's totally out of, you know, step with what she said and. And the whole idea of consent. So, yeah, I think the defense. I don't know exactly, but the defense lawyer makes the decision that we need to put this out there, that actually it was Luke's idea just to keep things on an even keel. So he does accept that. But then, yeah, the prosecutor goes in with Sean. Yeah. With the idea that, well, that's a green light, isn't it? To sex. And why would you never have mentioned that before? That it was Elise's idea?

[Michelle Laurie]

But, yeah, it felt like it was being made up on the hop.

[Andy Burns]

Well, there was a lot of that. I think there was a lot of that sort of reflecting back on the statements that were taken at the time and then the evidence people were giving in court. There seemed to be a lot of. Hang on.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. Or at the end of the day, you need to decide who you believe here. Yeah. And the prosecution's argument to the jury is Elise has always been consistent with her story from the get go. She's done it again in court. You just need to decide whether you believe her.

[Andy Burns]

So the jury, in the end, didn't seem to struggle with reaching a guilty verdict for both men.

[Charlotte King]

No, it wasn't. It didn't take an enormous amount of time. And they came back with guilty on all counts, so.

[Andy Burns]

Which is great. Sounds like a victory. Sounds like, you know, common sense sounds and all of that. Their sentences. Sean was given five years, eight months on the top and three years and four months on the bottom. And Luke. The sentencing seems to hold Shawn more responsible.

[Michelle Laurie]

He had more charges.

[Andy Burns]

Right. So. And Luke, four years, 10 months on the top, two years, 10 months on the bottom. So sort of happy days. I mean, we're never happy with the sentencing for sexual offenders, to be honest. Well, I'm not. I won't speak for you, but. So that seems like a successful conviction.

[Michelle Laurie]

So they're taken into custody and sentenced and they go to prison. There's some extraordinary audio.

[Courtroom Audio / Judge]

Gentlemen, I understand we have a verdict.

[Charlotte King]

The jury returns their decision on the charges one by one. It's guilty on all counts. There's audible distress from the courtroom as voices cry out in horror.

[Courtroom Audio / Judge]

Please, please.

[Charlotte King]

As the judge delivers his instructions, the crying out continues from the supporters in the background.

[Courtroom Audio / Judge]

Ladies and gentlemen, the next part of this process involving you is very brief. I'll keep it as brief as I can. What we'll do is I'll just raise something with the family of the accused men. It's necessary that I move to the next part of the process. It's necessary that that happens uninterrupted. These are tense times. I understand. But please. Now, ladies and gentlemen, the first time

[Michelle Laurie]

that we heard it, we were like, oh, my God. It was gut wrenching, really.

[Andy Burns]

I've never heard anything like this in my life.

[Charlotte King]

It's just such raw distress, and it's very hard not to be affected by

[Michelle Laurie]

it, to be able to, like, hear that and how impacting it is. On the people who surround the perpetrators as well, and who lost it. There are no winners here. This is just the ripple effect, you know, playing out.

[Andy Burns]

And I'm always shocked at how well behaved people are in court, to be honest. Like, it's such an emotional environment. There's crazy stuff happening. It's a rollercoaster, to use the ultimate cliche. But usually. And they're told, everyone's told, the families on both sides are told, don't react. We have to, you know, remain dignified and all that. But this is sort of the reaction I would expect would happen more often. And I, again, felt like there's just a sense of ownership, I think, in a smaller community over everything that everyone feels like, this is my town, this is my courtroom, that's my kid, and I'll do what I want about it. Basically. I'll react how I want. I don't think they're as dignified affairs as they are in big cities.

[Michelle Laurie]

I think it was a guttural reaction of disbelief to the verdict and shock. And shock that this was actually happening, this was real, and that they were going to prison.

[Andy Burns]

And just after this, Elise gets a message, a nice message, on Facebook Messenger, I think, and I'm being sarcastic from a former classmate who says to her, you're just ruining two people's lives. I hope you're happy. Oh, that's right. Because she had a wedding coming up, this girl, and Luke was supposed to be part of the wedding. So she's furious that it's ruined her wedding, but that's very much. And again, no one's ringing her with support or sending her messages of support. So from her perspective, she's feeling very much like that's. That's the vibe of the town.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. And I think her words were that it broke her, that message. She's already at a point of collapse, basically, at the end of this court case. They've won the court case, They've been found guilty. It's over. And then this message comes through. So it is just like this stab

[Andy Burns]

in the heart, basically, that not even conviction is going to change this. She's been living for this stage for years, knowing that a lot of the town supports them, doesn't believe, and all that stuff. So not even a jury, a judge, a conviction is changing the tide.

[Charlotte King]

And she referred that message. She refers to it as her mistake, Elise's mistake.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

Which is just. Yeah, just that old, you know, that narrative. It's like from the Handmaid's Tale, you're

[Michelle Laurie]

crying rape because you are embarrassed about

[Charlotte King]

what you've done and they all have to shout out, you know, whose fault was it? Her fault, her fault, her fault. Like it's that kind of thing.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah, definitely.

[Michelle Laurie]

I mean, we did reach out to this person who sent this message and in retrospect, she said she regretted sending it and that she was in a difficult time for her in her life and that she might not have sent it now, but, like, hindsight, I guess, is a wonderful thing. But yeah, it was a pretty vicious thing to send to somebody at that point and it was very indicative of a feeling in the town.

[Andy Burns]

Yes. Yeah. And make no mistake about it, from Elisa's perspective, but look, some people took it. Well, one person in particular took it further than messaging or just gossiping or feelings or whatever. Lisa, district nurse, actually contacted the court, was it?

[Charlotte King]

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't like to get into where she was coming from when she did that and say that there was any relationship to the message.

[Andy Burns]

No, no, no, I don't think there's a message. But I mean, you know, people were reacting in their own ways and sending a nasty message is one level. But Lisa actually contacted the court.

[Michelle Laurie]

So the day after the men go to prison.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

So it's real now, right? They are in prison? Yes. These two young men from the town.

[Charlotte King]

Yes. And they've been sentenced for years. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And it's years. Lisa said that she attempted to contact the informant, couldn't get through and so she ends up going to the defence team to make a new statement and that new statement will completely turn everything on its head. And it revolves around two words that she says she recalls being said on the night in question when she picked Elise up from the caravan. Luke, maybe.

[Charlotte King]

And the question to that, to get that answer is, did you consent to this? According to Lisa's statement, did you consent to this act? And then she's saying that Elise is standing there sort of umming and ahhing and saying, luke maybe, but not Shawn.

[Andy Burns]

Now, she has never mentioned that before. Lisa has never mentioned that when interviewed by police, when interviewed, working with the prosecutors.

[Michelle Laurie]

No.

[Andy Burns]

When they were prepping her, she'd never mentioned that this happened before.

[Michelle Laurie]

No. So, yeah, that all those processes went forward, you know, committal trial. She had the mobile number of the police officer, there was plenty of back and forth email exchange. She spoke to the community cop, Jeff Bartram, she had email exchanges. At no point until the men went to prison did this new statement arrive.

[Andy Burns]

She says it's because I was never asked the right questions. Doesn't she?

[Michelle Laurie]

In the first trial, she was asked an open question. What did she tell you on the night? There was no, you know, specific about this or about that. It was just an open question. It is never mentioned. So we can't speak to the motivation for that new statement, but it definitely was an absolute game changer because the Court of Appeal decided that it was enough to grant the men a new trial. And so they were released. From prison.

[Andy Burns]

From prison.

[Charlotte King]

And that a miscarriage of justice has taken place because the first jury wasn't aware of this information.

[Andy Burns]

Their release didn't happen overnight. And that's important because what was about 19 months they spent in jail while this process was working its way out.

[Charlotte King]

That's right, yeah. So the statement's the day after they're jailed, but obviously the defence has to mount an argument for an appeal. The appeal has to be heard. But when the appeal actually was heard, it was immediate that they were released. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so they ended up serving around half their minimum sentence at this point.

[Andy Burns]

So then they're released, they go back to their communities. Although, interestingly, the footy club has a new president. President who makes a stand and says, actually, no, Luke can't come back and play footy while all of this is going on.

[Michelle Laurie]

We've heard that there were discussions in the footy club between him and some of the power brokers who had brought Luke back after the 16 incident to play those two seasons. And that he put his foot down and said no, and these guys wanted

[Charlotte King]

him to play again.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so they did get him over to the cricket club.

[Andy Burns]

Cricket club. Not so choosy.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, I don't know whether everyone at the cricket club was happy, but he. He played that season at the. At the cricket club.

[Charlotte King]

And they are pretty starved for players at that cricket club, are they? Yeah, yeah.

[Andy Burns]

And it's very important that we deal with that matter above all the cricket club, the depth of talent at the cricket club. So they go to trial, they have a second trial, and now this time around, Lisa is a witness for the defence. And at this point she starts bringing up some other stuff she's never mentioned before, such as Elise was flirtatious with a number of males at the party.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

And this kind of is volunteered by Lisa. She's not asked that question, actually. She's sort of asked about what she remembers from the party, just generally. And that's what she comes out with immediately. Amorous.

[Michelle Laurie]

Flirtatious.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. And immediately the. The prosecutor takes issue with those who

[Andy Burns]

was the prosecutor by the way.

[Charlotte King]

Was it Eric Thomas?

[Andy Burns]

The way you were talking, I thought, was that Nanette Rogers? Because I suppose there's an ilk of ladies who work for the Department of Public Prosecutions who are just so brilliant.

[Michelle Laurie]

She is an external barrister brief. So she's at the bar. But you would not fuck with her.

[Andy Burns]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Michelle Laurie]

And she. Yeah, she ruled that courtroom.

[Andy Burns]

You just want to be very careful when you're giving evidence.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, she went, sorry, you know, I'm gonna.

[Andy Burns]

She described it as scandalous. That.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, it was scandalous material.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. To say that in front of a jury, to suddenly say, o, I do remember now that she was really flirtatious and amorous with all the guys at the party. And the prosecutor. Yeah. Put the brakes on and said, that is a scandalous accusation to make here and now.

[Charlotte King]

Has no relevance whatsoever, but is also.

[Andy Burns]

But very powerful.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. What are you doing here?

[Michelle Laurie]

And there was a discussion while the jury was out of the room about this, about whether or not they needed to discharge the jury.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

Which is a massive deal to, you know, start the whole bloody thing over again.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

So she obviously, the prosecutor obviously felt that. That pretty damaging.

[Charlotte King]

It's like a grenade dropping a grenade into the room when you're talking. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And an unprompted grenade, no less.

[Andy Burns]

And look, it makes no difference, you know, in the bigger picture, because the boys have felt I shouldn't call them boys, even I am infantilising them.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, the show is called Hometown Boys, but that is specific decision made to.

[Andy Burns]

Because that is the language.

[Michelle Laurie]

Our boys.

[Andy Burns]

It is. And I kept having to stop myself from infantilising them, from calling them the boys. They are.

[Michelle Laurie]

We're the same. When we were recording, we would often say, and the boys. Because it's done in a chat format.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

Sorry. The men. The men, they were adults.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

I mean, they are all young. And that's why I think the tendency is somehow sometimes to do that, to sort of allow. But it is part of that excusing of behaviour, isn't it? It is just boy think.

[Andy Burns]

So, that language. Boys will be boys. You know, all of that is about not holding them responsible for their actions because they're just being boys, you know, boys alike.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

So we know that Lisa's brought this evidence, but what about when she said the bombshell that. She said that she remembers Elise saying. When she asked Elise, did you give consent? Elise sort of said no. Well, Luke maybe, but not Shaun. This was the bombshell, new evidence that enabled these guys to get another trial. How was that handled well, this is

[Michelle Laurie]

the moment to test that.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. And to be honest, it was a bit of an anti climax for me. Cause I was watching it in court and I was like, what's gonna happen when they get to that part?

[Andy Burns]

This is the moment.

[Charlotte King]

And she kind of just said it in a similar. Almost exactly the same way as in her statement to the defence lawyer who's there to, you know, make the argument. And it wasn't very powerful, I didn't find. It was just sort of like. Well, she stood there and she said, luke maybe, but not Sean. And he's like, well, you know, why didn't you say this before? And she's like, oh, I just, you know, it's very overwhelming being in court and I just didn't really. I was badgered before and overwhelmed and they move on. It's not this sort of massive moment that I was hoping for or expecting. And then, yeah, it gets more interesting when it's under cross examination. Because then Sarah Thomas, the veteran barrister, just slowly sort of whittles away basically at this witness's credibility in front of the jury. And I was quite surprised that, yeah, the prosecutor just came out and basically said that. That she made the allegation that you fabricated this.

[Michelle Laurie]

She brought up the familial connections, she brought up the connections to the dying mother.

[Charlotte King]

Cause there's no other argument from the prosecution's perspective to explain this. Because she's saying, you never raised it before. You've got these family ties, you're upset with the acquittal. And she denies all of this in court and says, I would never risk

[Michelle Laurie]

my registration to do this.

[Charlotte King]

Absolutely not. It's a blatant lie that you're saying this. This is Lisa. And. But yeah, as far as the prosecutor's concerned, it's like, well, we've got Elise. She's still there with her consistent statement, with this consistent testimony that she's been, you know, repeating year on year since the minutes after this happened. You make a choice between her and what she's said and this woman who. Who is not a witness of truth. And so she kind of pits them, the two women against each other to the jury. There's no reason that you should believe this woman.

[Andy Burns]

They were found guilty for a second time, but sentencing controversial. This is a full seven years, by the way, after the party, isn't it?

[Charlotte King]

It is, yeah. So they weren't sentenced until April 2023. There was an expectation definitely on the part of the prosecution that they would serve more jail time. Rape's a serious offence. Sean had been charged with two counts of rape from the same event and sexual assault as well as. So these were serious charges and they're serious crimes. Everybody from both sides was quite of the opinion that the first sentence was fair from Judge Mulally in the first trial. So that was a good base sentence for everybody to work from.

[Andy Burns]

And they were thinking probably just go back and serve the remainder of that sentence.

[Charlotte King]

Well, I think that's the prosecution.

[Michelle Laurie]

That was the second one of the prosecution and the informant and the detective.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah, yeah. It sort of came almost as a surprise to the prosecution that the judge was asking questions about, well, what if I. Is there a situation where they wouldn't go back to jail? And she's sort of like.

[Michelle Laurie]

Like a community corrections order situation.

[Charlotte King]

And then. And then he started to just go down this and. Cause the defence was saying, we don't, you know, we don't think that they necessarily should go back to jail. It wasn't clear actually, where. Where it was gonna go, where it was gonna go in the end. But the judge was. Really. Seemed really interested in that community corrections order idea and he wanted it to be developed, you know, can you give

[Michelle Laurie]

me a suggestion if it was a lever that he could pull?

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. He seemed moved by the support that was shown for the men.

[Michelle Laurie]

And there was also the long delays Covid. There was arguments made about being in prison during COVID and how there was lots of lockdowns and people had their

[Andy Burns]

sentences reduced because of that.

[Michelle Laurie]

Because of that. So that was in the mix as well.

[Charlotte King]

Yeah. And, yeah, the argument was that the delay between the actual crime and sentencing was so long and it was actually extraordinarily long. They talked about it. Just didn't seem fair to then send them back to jail when they've had that hanging over their head.

[Andy Burns]

Basically, the judge talked a lot about the value or the weight of compassion, balancing mercy, mercy, mercy, justice and justice, and that that was part of his remit. Yep.

[Charlotte King]

Which it is.

[Michelle Laurie]

And, you know, certainly it's not for us to criticise that, but I would say that if you are back living in a community that has embraced you, playing footy, having.

[Andy Burns]

That's the trick, isn't it?

[Michelle Laurie]

Because are you suffering as much is not more of an aggravating factor for the victim.

[Andy Burns]

But in any case, the judge decided to go ahead and give them the community orders. No more jail time. So in the end, they served that initial 19 months jail time for raping Elise.

[Charlotte King]

They did, yeah. But the DPP did appeal that Sentence, they said it was manifestly inadequate. They started working on that immediately, by the behaviour of the prosecutor. Sarah Thomas did not look happy. They put in that appeal and tried to argue that because. Particularly because there's no remorse, basically, that's been shown. It doesn't actually make sense to grant them mercy or to grant them this. This very lenient sentence when they haven't actually accepted that they've done anything wrong.

[Andy Burns]

No.

[Michelle Laurie]

Or apologized.

[Charlotte King]

Or apologized, you know, any of that. So. But in the end, the Supreme Court found that the sentence was fair in the very unusual circumstances, particularly around delay. But it's interesting because the delay was obviously caused by the men appealing their original sentence. So it's not something that the prosecution asked for.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. The judge in the appeal, in his findings said, he says that he believed they have prospects of rehabilitation. The fact that they'd already served 19 months and done so during COVID and their otherwise good character work history and the principle of parsimony, well, that's where

[Charlotte King]

the good character comes in, isn't it? And they had 40. Around 40 between them.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

Luke had 23 and I think Sean had 14, which is a lot character references.

[Andy Burns]

I don't know if I could pull together 23 character references, to be honest. Certainly not both court case.

[Charlotte King]

And a lot of those came from outside the community, I would say, like from Geelong and Highton and other places. Balrap. It wasn't exclusively Balmoral. People giving those character references.

[Andy Burns]

So, again, it's not about this weird little town.

[Charlotte King]

Not really, no.

[Andy Burns]

I guess I often think, you know, what parent could accept that their child is a bully? Like, we all talk about our kids being bullied. Everyone reckons their kids being bullied at school and yet no one's kid is a bully. And that's probably me as a mum. You know, that's something that I've noticed. And I think, well, you know, what would I do if the school or someone rang me up and said, your kid has been bullying people? And obviously this is a much bigger example of that. But it's really hard to accept that we could have raised a bully or indeed a rapist.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I certainly don't blame families of perpetrators for wanting to believe that. And, you know, having.

[Andy Burns]

Well, that's the other thing.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Andy Burns]

Your son looks you in the eye and says, it's a lie. I swear to God, Mum, you've got to believe you want to believe him.

[Michelle Laurie]

That's where it gets interesting, I think. And in small communities like this, where you are so interconnected, I Think it's probably more likely that that kind of wanting to believe happens because there are just so many ties that bind.

[Andy Burns]

And some of them. I got the sense from some of the character witnesses and things that popped up that they were almost saying, yeah, we accept they probably raped this girl, but they're such great guys. They work hard. They like almost accepting of, okay, that probably did happen. But as you said, is it enough? Is it important enough?

[Charlotte King]

And also, a lot of them referred to them as allegations. I noticed a curveball that had been thrown at.

[Andy Burns]

Even after conviction.

[Charlotte King]

Even after conviction.

[Courtroom Audio / Judge]

The.

[Charlotte King]

The prosecutor actually raised that in court and said, I actually have a problem with these character references even being tendered because they don't accept the verdict. And they refer to these. These convictions as allegations were past that point. This is the. Actually the second time they've been convicted and these people still do not accept it. They just won't accept it.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, now that's not going to happen anymore. There won't be character references in these types of trials anymore.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah, tell us about the decision. Tell us how the law's changed.

[Michelle Laurie]

So now, basically, there is no good character references to be given in consideration of sentencing for these types of crimes.

[Charlotte King]

Hasn't come into effect yet in the

[Michelle Laurie]

process, and there's obviously been fantastic campaigners working on this for some time. There's been changes in other states, but, yeah, the victim in this case, Elise, was very keen to talk to the Attorney General about this type of stuff and what happened in her case, and so got an opportunity to do that. And they said that they had heard the podcast, the premier and the ag, and they were both horrified by what she went through and that that was part of the reason that they pushed forward to get this happening.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And the post that the premier put up the day that they announced it was, it's like, if you've been convicted of rape, you're not a good bloke.

[Andy Burns]

Right. You don't have good character. That's what I think when I'm reading this. No, I'm sorry, you don't have good character.

[Michelle Laurie]

And it was quite heartening to read because it was like. You feel gaslit by that stuff.

[Andy Burns]

Absolutely. You know, and to be gaslit by 40 people, imagine hearing 40 people's references. He's a fantastic worker. He's really reliable.

[Charlotte King]

We felt gaslit in the process of making the story, because you're hearing this kind of thing from people in the community or. Or things like, you know, this community has had so much hurt. It's Been so difficult for us. You know, we're a small community, regional community, you know, we've got a subject to commodity prices, it's an agricultural community. We just want to move on. And you sort of think, are we doing the right thing here? And, you know, we were so amazed by how little people knew about the actual incident and the event because it, you know, it was talked about in court and it was summarised in the newspaper afterwards. So I assumed that people would know the basic facts about what had happened, but everyone was like, well, I don't know, you know, it's complicated.

[Michelle Laurie]

And oh, and she went in there with them, you know, and oh, and everyone was very dreaded.

[Andy Burns]

None of that happens between two people.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, all of those things. And it was just the narrative in the town that was. That was spread.

[Andy Burns]

What about the old ladies in the op shop that you got? At one point you sort of gone back to town and you're just fox popping. You're just asking people, they remember it, what are their thoughts. And these two dear old nanas in the op shop and one of them's sort of on top of it, she's a bit like, oh, I just don't want to say much. But the other one's like, well, you know, they were drinking a lot. The other one's like, that does that shouldn't matter. And then the first one says, and from what I've heard, she wasn't an innocent. So, I mean, that's years after the events. It's a pervasive attitude in the. In the town, isn't it?

[Michelle Laurie]

That exchange obviously was fairly surprising to us and that conversation actually went on for quite some time after that. And I have a lot of sympathy for that person who made those comments because she's of a time and of a generation and she talked about her own life and, you know, seeing footballers changing nappies on the sidelines at the netball these days and being like, absolutely amazed by that, that that would happen. You know, in her day it was like going to the pub, see you later, cook my dinner, you know, that kind. And so she's kind of a victim of that as well.

[Andy Burns]

Absolutely. And at least the victim in this story mentions the internalised misogyny, that. Which is a saying, an expression that is used a lot these days. But I thought, God, what a perfect application this is of it. If something like that happens to me, it's my fault somehow.

[Charlotte King]

Oh, it's, yeah. A tale as old as time.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. I love. My favourite person is Twiggy Yeah, just biggest belief.

[Twiggy (Community Member)]

How many people have, you know, taken the side of the rapist? Luke and Sean completely fucked up and did something horrendous and atrocious. You know, leadership at the time must have thought that it was worth trying to support them for their mental health. I'm still part of this club and so many people that did support the rapists are still part of the club. Yeah. I'll possibly lose a lot of friends over this and it might be hard. It probably. Yeah, it will be hard. We say Luke all the time. He's around all the time. You see people that are supporters of him all the time. You feel horrendous, you know, associating with these sorts of people, but sort of your friends are your community, it's your life. You can't just shut away.

[Andy Burns]

I love his very Australian country, straightforward attitude. I understand everything he's saying. Of course. We love that he just calls people rapists when they are the rapists. And the way he says it is so weirdly heartwarming to me that he is a man from that community who by his own admission is friends with the same. Like he's in the circle and he talks about seeing Luke in particular. I see him around, I see him around town, his family. I'm friends with very close friends of his. He's very close with the Hutchins family. He's really worried about talking to you because. But he does talk to you and not only that, he talks to you in such a blunt, honest, open hearted way. It's making me emotional to think about what Twiggy has done. Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

So brave, so powerful, so brave, so courageous.

[Andy Burns]

Because he also doesn't paint himself to be an angel. He also says, well, you know, what am I supposed to do? This is my social circle.

[Michelle Laurie]

He talks about feeling complicit in that and the guilt of that.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I think that is something that people in small towns will understand and resonate with.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

Because there isn't a hell of a lot of choice. No, we actually, we met Twiggy the day that we went up to the football game and he was very chilly and didn't speak and like I was chatting to his partner and you know, that was friendly but nothing. And so then we actually found out that he had been quite good friends with Elise during school and so I thought we'll just give him a ring. Like this was months later and it was like this, something had switched and he was like, why don't you come up and see me?

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I Rang Charlotte and I'm like, he wants us to go and see him. And so of course we zipped straight back up there, you know, three and a half hours up to his place. And I knew that it was high stakes, but it wasn't until we asked about the Hutchins and that he started to cry that I thought, oh, shit. Like, this is really close to home.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

And he's doing something pretty brave.

[Charlotte King]

Absolutely.

[Michelle Laurie]

Like he's gotta go down the main drag, go to the pub. He's gotta, he's got, he's the treasure of the footy club. He's gonna go to the game that weekend.

[Charlotte King]

But he was just desperate to say it as well.

[Andy Burns]

He sounds it, he sounds it.

[Charlotte King]

He needed to say it for his own soul kind of thing.

[Andy Burns]

And you make the point. This is a 10 year old story, but for him it's still very immediate, important, close to the surface. And you can hear his passion in. No. So I've decided to say this. I'm going to say it. Yeah.

[Charlotte King]

But he's also torn and conflicted and like, they're just gonna think I'm a fucking idiot.

[Andy Burns]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlotte King]

It was just. Yeah, it was beautiful how many moments like that there were with people that we interviewed where they really were just so honest and genuine with us. You know, these people haven't given media interviews before, they haven't dealt with journalists and there isn't a hell of a

[Michelle Laurie]

lot of journalism being done in, you know, the middle of nowhere in Western Victoria. So there isn't like. And there is also a real trust of the ABC because of emergency broadcasting and the work that, the great work that local radio does. And so to be there doing a negative story about a town is kind of hard for people to stomach. I also felt like after the last episode came out and it kind of went crazy, like it was at the top of the Reddit forums and people were like laying into the place and saying pretty full on stuff on Reddit. And I actually said to Charlotte, like, I don't like that because there are lots of great people in Balmoral who didn't agree with what happened there.

[Andy Burns]

And also, as we've said, I don't think it's about that place. No, so much of it is not about that place.

[Michelle Laurie]

Absolutely not.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

So it did feel like a bit of a mob. But then this thing did happen.

[Andy Burns]

Yes.

[Michelle Laurie]

And it was very, very hard to find supporters of Elise in the town. You could count them on one hand.

[Andy Burns]

And you're not the only people saying that Alison the copper says that the judge, you know, notices the swing of support.

[Charlotte King]

And they're in the podcast.

[Andy Burns]

And they're in the podcast. Yeah. So, yeah, that's not opinion, but we grappled with that.

[Michelle Laurie]

Like, we didn't. Like, we weren't, like, out with pitchforks

[Charlotte King]

at dawn, like, and was always conscious that we are coming from outside, we're not from that community. And it is, you know, such a visible. A small town is visible to everybody in a way that other communities aren't.

[Andy Burns]

So everyone talks about this has changed the town. It's just changed us. It's changed us. It's just changed the town. Has it? Could this happen again? Do you think it's changed in the way that we three women would hope that it's changed?

[Charlotte King]

I mean, I think it's pretty impossible to get a sense of that without interviewing more people. And we. We tried very hard to interview people, particularly around the football club, which is really a barometer of where things are at in that community.

[Andy Burns]

Yes. People describe it as the church of the community. It's the heart.

[Charlotte King]

It's such a big part. And so until you. I do. I do think people look to that for leadership. And I think that there was an opportunity here, a really clear opportunity to come out with that leadership and take a stance and say, you know what? We probably should have done things differently. And we do, you know, respect women and sexual violence is never okay.

[Michelle Laurie]

But there's been a real siege mentality, and that has continued. They did release a statement the other day to a local paper, the Footy Club. The Footy Club did broad sort of stuff. They didn't answer any of the particulars of the podcast or whatever. The stuff that I hear coming back from sources and contacts in the community doesn't fill me with hope about, you know, change. But what we're talking about here is, like, generational ideas that one little podcast isn't gonna change a culture. But what has happened is right across the Wimmera and probably beyond conversations, people talking about these issues, and particularly for me, the stuff around murky consent, alcohol and what happens in those spaces. There's been a lot of discussion about that with Laura, the person in the last episode.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. Who was a victim, who never reported, but she reported to you, again, relating to the story, having had a similar experience with the footy star of the day when she was about that age, years before release.

[Michelle Laurie]

That story in particular, I've heard from a lot of people since then saying, that was my story.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And there was one Woman in particular who got in touch, who grew up in the area, who said, I listened to Laura and it could have been me, and asked if she could send her a note and tell her, you know, thank you. Cause it lessened the load to hear. I wasn't actually wrong about this.

[Andy Burns]

Yes. I was so glad that you found Laura and that you played her testimony, essentially because you could feel that she felt so defeated by it all for such a long, such a big part of her life. She said, you know, you have sex with someone at 15 and it makes you unmarriable. It's so impactful. Whereas the boys are encouraged to just keep racking up roots and this is the environment. But she alleges that she was raped by somebody around about the same age. Right. As Elise was, but earlier a little bit younger.

[Michelle Laurie]

We're sort of specifically murky about time costs. Tiny place.

[Andy Burns]

You had another lady who talked about being bailed up at 12 at a footy function, an older boy pushing her against the wall and saying, give us a kiss and all that.

[Michelle Laurie]

And another person reached out after the podcast to say a similar story about 12. Same sort of thing.

[Andy Burns]

And that's that entitlement that we've talked about, murking the waters for the men,

[Charlotte King]

I think, in terms of excusing that behaviour. What were you wearing? What did you do? How did you make these happening as well?

[Michelle Laurie]

And so for me it's been frustrating because, like, we're hearing these stories, you know, we've had women coming forward, we've said as much as we can in the podcast, but then we don't see the accountability within that club to go, actually. What are you talking about? Let's have a, you know, a good hard look at this. I think it also is difficult because these clubs, they are volunteer run organisations. There is no policy at AFL level when it comes to these issues. Like, what do you do if you have a perpetrator of sexual assault, domestic violence, et cetera in your club? What does the handbook say? It's not in there. And so it's largely left to the club to make those calls on their own. And so it does leave open the, the grassroots for these kinds of situations.

[Andy Burns]

Again, so lack of leadership.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah. And also obviously, you know, in these tiny places, they're desperate for players and like football is life out there. And so that was one thing that we, I don't think we realise just how like, big a deal that is.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And how much the trade off people are willing to make in order to have a Successful football team.

[Andy Burns]

Bloody good footballer. I grew up in Queensland, and that is like a. That is the mark of a man. Like people would be telling you about their new neighbour, about a bloke they work with. Oh, he's, you know, this is a bloody good footballer, you know, So I totally understood all of that.

[Charlotte King]

It does go beyond football, I think. I think it's something for people to focus on.

[Andy Burns]

Absolutely. But I think that saying that it's like the church really does a good job of explaining. If you think about how churches used to bring the community together in one place at a designated time every week and sort of everything flowed on from there.

[Michelle Laurie]

But then the church has also excused and protected bad behaviour for the good of the greater institution. And I think that's what we see happening here, is that the good of the club trumps the right of the individual. I hope that this has been a point of reflection. There's obviously people within the club that have spoken to us, like Twiggy and ed Ferguson, the under 14s coach who went rogue and had us come down and see him at the game. But, yeah, a lot of the power brokers who were involved at the time are still there. So, yeah, it's an interesting time, I think, at that club, and it's certainly within that Horsham District League and beyond. There's been a lot of discussions at other clubs about, okay, so what does this mean for us?

[Andy Burns]

Oh, I bet.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I know that some clubs have had lawyers come and have discussion about consent. We know that the podcast is being used as a teaching tool at the Eden Hope College. We haven't actually spoken to them directly. We've heard it from a parent, but the kids were all listening to it.

[Andy Burns]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And so they're talking about these things.

[Andy Burns]

And again, I think you can't really

[Michelle Laurie]

ask for more than that.

[Andy Burns]

No, you can't. No. And the way that you have, you know, assisted Elise in telling her story and all of that, I think is really valuable for. That's fantastic for a school to be that progressive. Thank you so much. The podcast is excellent. I'm so. I couldn't wait to talk to you about it. The twists and turns. It's like a movie or a TV miniseries, but it's very, very real and as I said, very relatable, I think, to most women, to be honest. I think most of us have found ourselves, as I said, in situations that may not have escalated the way Elise's did. But, yeah, I think it all sounds very familiar to most of us. So Congratulations. Well done. Thanks for joining us on Australian trip. If you would like any more information about anything you've heard on the show today, or support numbers, just check out the show notes. The producers of this podcast recognise the

[Charlotte King]

traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders

[Andy Burns]

past, present and those emerging.