Loading summary
Transcript79 lines
- [00:01]
A
Warning. This is a true crime segment and not suitable for children. It contains references to sexual violence and suicide which some listeners may find distressing. If you need support, you are not alone. Contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or visit lifeline.org au for 24 hour support. We don't know precisely. It's a voice that will send shivers down your spine.
- [00:23]
B
Standoff with police wanted fugitive step 19
- [00:27]
A
times the suspect lured the victim into the war. Biggest legal dramas in Hollywood today is amazing. To show what the system can do.
- [00:35]
B
This is True Crime Tonight.
- [00:38]
A
Hello, everyone. It is True Crime Tonight night. It's Sunday night and I'm here, Michelle Laurie. And I'm here with my producers Matthew Tankard and Ruby Bartzis.
- [00:46]
B
Hello.
- [00:47]
A
We're here every Sunday night from 6 till 7 bringing you our true crime show. We've got book reviews I'm going to tell you about, possibly my all time favorite true crime book tonight. I'm very excited to tell you about it. We've got documentary recommendations, we chat with you, our listeners and we have an interview coming up later in the show. This one is about I just can't even, I struggle to find the words to tell you about Katherine Knight. Well, let me put it to you this way. She has the longest sentence ever given to an Australian female prisoner. So that should tell you a little bit about this special lady we'll be hearing about a little bit later in the show. But up next we're going to hear from one of you, from a listener that's on True Crime tonight. When his employee Sergei Magnitsky uncovered a $230 million government fraud scheme and was murdered to be silenced. And his friend Alexei Navalny was imprisoned. American attorney Jamison Firestone was faced with a fight back or walk away rule of Lies is his explosive first hand account of taking on Putin's regime. The corruption, the COVID ups, the murders that changed everything. And the inside story of a relentless pursuit of justice and 3 billion of Russia's money. Rule of Lies by Jameson Firestone, available June 23 from Harper Books, wherever books are sold around Australia. This is True Crime Tonight. I'm Michelle Laurie. I'm here with our producers Matthew Tanket and Ruby Bartzis. And we are about to listen to a message of like a voicemail message from one of you, one of our listeners. I call it the true crime hotline. Yes, Matthew, remind us how this person found us.
- [02:27]
B
If you want to leave us a question or a comment about the show, just go to the show. Notes of any episode from the Australian True Crime podcast, or if you find us at Australian True Crime on Facebook and Instagram, there's a link there.
- [02:37]
A
Very easy. That's exactly what this lovely person did.
- [02:40]
C
Hi, Michelle.
- [02:41]
A
My question for you is, how do you go about making sure that you provide that safe space for guests to come onto the show where you strike that balance of being, you know, a very confident and empathetic host, but then also being able to enter into some pretty confronting and distressing topics? I think it's pretty fine line and you handle it really well and definitely harder than it seems. So really curious to hear how you go about creating that environment for your guests really successfully. Yeah. So nice and so true.
- [03:15]
C
You are really good at that.
- [03:16]
A
Well, thank you. But big part of it is these days is Matthew sends out this, like, questionnaire to the listener. So that's new since Matthew's been on board, so for the last three years or something. Tell us the sorts of questions that are on here. It's so great.
- [03:29]
B
Well, yeah, it's just about, you know, let us know if there's anything you're not comfortable speaking about. Let us know if there's any trigger words. But, you know, oftentimes they've done lots of other, like, TV shows that are a lot more like legacy media type shows that at times can be pretty sensationalist.
- [03:45]
A
Yes.
- [03:45]
B
And so basically, I'm just saying we're not. That we're not gonna edit them in a funny way. We just wanna make it really clear that once they record with us, it's not like you into the ether and out of their control.
- [03:57]
A
Yeah. And we always make it clear that they can contact us later if they want something cut out, basically. Or even as we're recording, if they say something and then they wish they hadn't, they can just say, oh, I shouldn't say that, I don't want to say that, or whatever, and we'll cut it out. So I think that from the outset creates a very comfortable environment. And also I just. I'm just honest and open. So I try really hard to ask a question if I don't know something I hate. The only thing that annoys me is when I get home and realise I've pretended to know something when I didn't know and I should have just admitted I don't know what that means. So, yeah, I try that really hard. I try to go, hang on, what does that mean?
- [04:37]
B
Yeah, but, you know, we've also, you know, spoken to offenders too. Does that feel different for you? No.
- [04:42]
A
If anything I have to stop myself being over empathetic with offenders because I'm so immersed in the idea of the victim offender overlap that most offenders have been victimised first before they become offenders. So I'm always right into that, trying to figure out how we got here as an offender. And then, yeah, I have to stop myself. Cause I think, oh, this will get really annoying for listeners if I keep being too kind to this guy.
- [05:07]
B
Yeah.
- [05:07]
A
If I forget what he has done to somebody else. So, yeah, that's probably the riskiest time for me is talking to offenders. However, I mean, if you are an offender and you would like to talk to us, please do.
- [05:19]
C
We'd love to chat.
- [05:20]
A
I think there is much to learn. Yeah.
- [05:22]
C
Yeah.
- [05:22]
A
So thank you so much for that question. Love it. On our True Crime hotline, please keep sending us, you know, questions or suggestions or whatever you like.
- [05:30]
B
Come find us Australian true crime podcast on Instagram or Facebook or listen to any of our episodes and you'll find a link in the show notes.
- [05:36]
A
Yes, this is True Crime Tonight. Coming up later in the show, we are talking about Catherine Knight, who, as I said, very difficult lady to describe in a couple of words, but she does, she is currently serving the longest sentence ever handed down to a female offender in Australia.
- [05:51]
C
So.
- [05:52]
A
So that is going to give you an indication of the kind of lady we're talking about. That's coming up on True Crime Tonight across Australia.
- [05:59]
C
This is True Crime Tonight with Michelle
- [06:01]
A
Laurie, Matthew Tankard and myself, Ruby Bartces.
- [06:04]
C
Coming up, we've got an interview with
- [06:06]
A
Lauren Casamatis about the Katherine Knight case.
- [06:08]
C
But first, Michelle, you have a book recommendation for us?
- [06:11]
A
Oh, do I ever. I think it's my favourite true crime book. I know I mentioned this book ages ago, but I finally finished it again and this is one that I read every couple of years. Cause to me I. I think it's the best example of a true crime book, believe it or not, the best. It's called the Stranger Beside Me by Ann Rule and I think you guys are a bit young to remember. When I was a kid, probably the first true crime books I read were ann rule books. 80s 90s. I think our mums were all about Ann Rule. She's just brilliant writer, true crime writer. It's called the Stranger Beside Me and it is about none other than Ted Bundy. Right?
- [06:51]
C
Oh, hot Ted Bundy.
- [06:53]
A
Hot Ted Bundy, right. One of the most famous serial killers ever to walk the earth. And is it because he was so hot? Maybe it is. And that was certainly. I Think part of his. The way he lured his victims. Young women. Here's the mind blowing bit. So imagine Ann Rule is a single mum in her 30s, trying to make ends meet, and she really wants to be a true crime writer. That's her dream, deep in her soul, right? And so she's sort of writing bits and pieces. She's writing some articles for local newspapers and things like that. She takes a job at a crisis phone line. It's like in Australia we have Lifeline. Yeah, yeah. She is working with a guy called Ted.
- [07:33]
B
Oh, that sounds great.
- [07:35]
A
Lovely guy. You never met a lovelier guy than the guy she works with called Ted. Young, handsome, smart. She and this Ted. So at this stage, he's in his late 20s, so she's a bit older than him. But because of their lifestyles, I think it feels like a much bigger age gap. She's a mum, she's mumsy. He's a cool guy, still at college, studying law. Yeah, he's out and about, he's got girlfriends and he's talking to her about his girlfriend troubles and all that. They're top mates, work besties. Like Matt and I. Yes, exactly.
- [08:07]
B
And this Ted works at a suicide prevention hotline, man.
- [08:12]
A
He does.
- [08:13]
B
Wow. And Ruby, just between us, I. I have a hunch as to who I think this Ted might be.
- [08:18]
A
This Ted fella in the book, she's telling us this story. It's so well written. And what I love about it is she never went back and changed it when the story played itself out. She really writes it. As a naive, lovely suburban lady at this job with this nice young bloke. It's good to know she's still alive. Well, she's not now, but. Because she'd be 150 now, like, she died of natural causes. Don't worry, she's. Yeah, but then these, these murders are happening. Everyone at work's talking about them. Ted's joining in the conversations about it. And then eventually, as months go by, bits of information start coming out. A sketch, a survivor. There's a survivor, they have a sketch. A few people start to go, that looks familiar, but no one really wants to go there. Another person comes out and goes, I heard him. I heard him talking to that victim. And he said, hi, I'm Ted. And she and a few others go, is it? And she starts to have this feeling, but she thinks she's crazy. But eventually she does actually call. She's got friends in the cops, right? And when they get to a point where they go, okay, we've got this image. Someone thinks his name might be Ted. Someone else thought they saw him in a Volkswagen, a brown Volkswagen. She calls her mate in the coppers and says, hey, can you just look up my friend from work, Ted Bundy? I feel really bad even bringing it up. Just see what car he drives. Put him in your system. Copper puts him in the system. He drives a tan vw.
- [09:53]
C
Oh.
- [09:54]
A
Even then, they don't grab him. They've got. They're like, there's thousands of VWs in the state. Even his girlfriend, she calls up the tip line and goes, I can't remember what her query was, but can you check this about my boyfriend, Ted Bundy? Even then, they don't straightaway go to Ted, but eventually they work their way through it and they get to Ted Bundy.
- [10:15]
B
Wow.
- [10:16]
A
I think there's DNA involved, but again, this is the 70s, so it's a pretty rudimentary investigation. But the way an RIL writes it, she never gives up on him for such a long time. I've got some sound of him talking here, and I just want you to imagine, because she talks a lot about. And a lot of people did. A lot of people talked about what a great guy he was. Charming, lovely. The judge in his case, the judge who sentenced him to death because Ted Bundy represented himself in court, because he'd done a bit of law school, and he's just a raging narcissist. And even the judge said, you know what? I'm gonna put you to death. But this is a real shame because he's like, you could have been a great lawyer. The judge was completely charmed by him. This is the charming Ted. I'm not guilty. Does that include the time I stole a comic book when I was five years old? I am not guilty of the charges which have been filed against me. No man is truly innocent.
- [11:13]
B
I mean, we all have transgressed in
- [11:16]
A
some way in our lives.
- [11:16]
B
And as I say, I've been impolite and there are things I regret having
- [11:22]
A
done in my life, but nothing like the things I think that you're referring to. That audio that you just heard was from the Ted Bundy tapes, which is an excellent documentary series on Netflix. It's all good. Ted Bundy's a fascinating guy, but for me, the perspective of the stranger beside me, well written. And this incredible perspective that she had, you've got to read it. But, Matthew, do you have anything to tell me?
- [11:50]
C
The guy sit next to work, just
- [11:52]
A
take his license plate number just in case you ever need it.
- [11:56]
B
This is True Crime tonight with Michel Lurie.
- [12:00]
A
This break is brought to you by Adobe Creative Cloud, the ultimate creative Toolkit. With over 20 apps at your fingertips, there are always new ways to explore your creativity. Transform images with Photoshop, design graphics with Illustrator, edit videos with Premiere Pro, or Animate. Just about anything, no matter what you want to create. Adobe has the tools you need to bring your ideas to life. It's all in Creative Cloud. Welcome back to True Crime tonight Across Australia. Joining us is Lauren Casimatis. She is a defence lawyer and among many other things, she can talk confidently about our next subject, Catherine Knight. She is currently serving the longest sentence ever handed down to a female offender in Australia.
- [12:46]
C
When you look at the case, it's remarkable in that it's probably the most, I'd say, reprehensible crime at that stage in Australia that it occurred. And what makes it more, I'm not going to say attractive, but people fascinated by True crime. And why were they so fascinated by her? It's because she was a female. A lot of people don't expect women to be so aggressive and also because it was just so, I guess, tragic
- [13:10]
A
and barbaric, we can say we don't expect women to behave in a certain way. But also when I look at her background, her early childhood, it ticks all the boxes of a violent offender. She was born into violence, domestic violence in the home, sexual violence in the home. And so again, if she were a man, we'd go, okay, yeah, well, that's a great start for a violent offender in adulthood.
- [13:32]
C
Right. And I always say there's no such thing as an evil person. People commit crimes because of something that's happened in their lifetime. And often what you see with women is that they are a victim of domestic violence to begin with, and it turns into crime because either they've learned maladaptive behaviors, they've sort of inherited these actions and they go on to do it themselves, or, or there's such a deterioration in their sense of worth, their sense of esteem and their sense of, I guess, belonging that they look for crime as a way to heal.
- [14:01]
A
So in 1976, and I think this was the first time that Catherine's mental illness became very clear to everybody. She, she took her new, her only baby at that stage, her first child, and she left the baby on the train tracks, like in the middle of the train tracks, and she walked away. And by a miracle, a man heard the baby crying and rescued the baby. So obviously evidence of postnatal depression.
- [14:27]
C
Yeah. And I wonder Also, if it's the first signs of borderline personality, they often.
- [14:33]
A
I think she was diagnosed at that point.
- [14:34]
C
Had she diagnosed? Yeah, because I would say that they act impulsively. They're not. They disassociate, so they disconnect in terms of judgment and they're just on autopilot in a way, and not thinking about the consequences. There's no empathy as well. So I would say you're right, there's postnatal. There must be a combination of things there. But at least, I guess, obviously it's a blessing the baby survived. And also, it's probably this terrible cry for help, or at least there was a bystander that could then redirect her for treatment, because, as I understand it, she didn't get any criminal.
- [15:02]
A
No, no, she wasn't charged, so. But also no intervention, or if there was insufficient intervention. This is the 70s, 1976. So you would think now, looking back, that that was the turning point, perhaps, you know, where someone should have said. Could have said, this woman is in desperate need of very serious support, mental health support, and it could have stopped everything that came after that. But as it was, it seems as though there was very little intervention. Baby was given back to her and she went on to have more children. And, yeah, it became a footnote in her history. She cycles through a couple of husbands and they report it. Must be them reporting it because they'd be the only witnesses that she's violent with all of them. Let's get to Pricey. So I think there's three husbands before we get to John Price. And I call him Pricey because that's what everyone called him.
- [15:52]
B
Right.
- [15:53]
A
And he just sounds like a fantastic guy. He's a guy who's rattling around Aberdeen, a town in New South Wales, where there's a big abattoir and that's where she's working. And I think Pricey was a minor and he was divorced, but he had a couple of kids living with him. He owned his own house. He seemed like a fantastic guy, didn't he?
- [16:12]
C
Yeah, no, he did. And I think from what I understand, the evidence shows that there were other episodes where he forgave her or he. Yeah, he put it down to, oh, that's her. That's her character. That's a Chaos supporter. So he must have been in a blur or under a spell eventually. A lot of victims of violence are where they. They can't rationalize anymore. They believe what they're being told. So she would have made him feel like he is an offender, he is a bad person, he needs to be reprimanded. The evidence showed that he'd made certain claims to neighbours about, you know, if you find me dead, it's her. And I know to the children as well, he'd sort of hint that things aren't safe or that he felt unsafe.
- [16:51]
A
There's two ways about this. We can talk about what happened that night or we can talk about it from the police's perspective, which is probably the evidence that you've read, because it's quite extraordinary, isn't it, when you step through it the way they did tell us about that.
- [17:03]
C
So they got a call from. It was a staff member at the victim's job. They were worried he hadn't turned up. Police did a welfare check. And then that's when they actually walked in on the pot of boiling water and a decapitated head in it. And she was about to serve dinner.
- [17:20]
A
Well, the first thing they saw was the what they called a pelt hanging from a doorway.
- [17:26]
C
So she had, because she worked in the abattoir, she developed such precise skills in terms of being able to. I hate to say this, but fillet, a carcass and skin. A carcass that she'd actually perfectly skinned. They say a pelt, because from head to toe, it was almost like a draping blanket. So they found this draping skin on the hook and then pot of boiling water with carrots and all sorts of ingredients. And that's what they walked in on when she was about to feed her own children, the deceased, so.
- [17:59]
A
And his children, more to the point. She wanted to feed his children.
- [18:04]
C
Yeah.
- [18:05]
A
What led up to it? Did she ever describe what. What put her in a mind to do something like this?
- [18:11]
C
From my understanding of the evidence, she suspected he was having an affair and she was angry. And I think at one point he said he wanted to end the relationship. Her lawyers were trying to convince the court that she had suffered from, I guess, a form of psychosis where she disassociated and had amnesia, is what that saying. And the court rejected that. And because I think there were so many elements of planning and constructed conduct, the sentencing judge, and in fact, the Court of Appeal as well, just thought, no, like the other factors were so aggravating that we couldn't even give her any kind of parole period, because of. Notwithstanding her mental health issues, everything else was far too severe.
- [18:55]
A
And, yeah, we absolutely cannot assume that she won't offend again.
- [18:58]
C
That's right. They said she was in absolute danger because of the past behaviours. Yes. Yeah.
- [19:02]
A
Okay. So she got life without parole?
- [19:04]
C
Yes, she did.
- [19:06]
A
Thank you to our guest, Lauren Casimatis. If you would like to listen to the full interview with her, you can check it out on our podcast, Australian True Crime. It's available on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening to True Crime tonight and you can join us every Sunday from 6 till 7. We'll see you next week.