True Crime Tonight: The Case That Stays With Me

Summary

Australian True Crime: True Crime Tonight: The Case That Stays With Me

Host: Meshel Laurie (with Ruby Bartzis, Matthew Tankard, and guest Lex Lasry)
Date: August 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "True Crime Tonight" dives into those Australian true crime cases that haunt the people who cover them, focusing on the case that has stayed with host Meshel Laurie the most. The conversation spans the impact of infamous whistleblower Sally Ann Huckstep and corrupt police officer Roger Rogerson, explores the complexity of familial violence and systemic abuse with a book club review, and features an insightful interview with former Supreme Court judge Lex Lasry about his career, his stance against the death penalty, and the political intersections of law and crime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Case That Stays With Me: Sally Ann Huckstep & Police Corruption

(03:32 – 07:53)

• Listener Asks: “Is there a case you can't let go of, that haunts you?”

• Meshel’s Response: The Sally Ann Huckstep case, centering on her whistleblowing against the New South Wales Police—especially Roger Rogerson.

  • Sally Ann was a heroin addict, sex worker, and one of the few who dared reveal the scale of police corruption in the 1980s.
  • Memorable Moment: Meshel shares a vivid childhood memory of watching Sally Ann on "60 Minutes" with Ray Martin, being mesmerized by Huckstep’s charisma and bravery.
  • Huckstep accused police, especially Rogerson, of her boyfriend Wayne Lanfranche’s murder.
  • She knowingly took great risks: "She knew that, she knew that would happen, she said so in the interview and she didn’t care, she was fed up." (Meshel Laurie, 05:28)
  • Sally Ann's murder came after her whistleblowing, highlighting the cost of challenging entrenched power.
  • The broader cultural context: At the time, public and media attitudes toward sex workers like Huckstep were dismissive or suspicious.

• On Roger Rogerson:

  • Once seen as a likely Police Commissioner, "He was rotten to the core, this guy." (Meshel Laurie, 07:13)
  • Rogerson was later convicted and died in prison for another murder (Jamie Gao, 2014), indicating a lifetime of criminality.

• Reflection: The story’s legacy includes a shift in public perception about corruption and marginalized voices, as well as a chastening reflection on attitudes towards women like Sally Ann at the time.

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2. Book Club: "The Unthinkable" by David Challen

(08:54 – 14:05)

• Recommendation: Meshel Laurie reviews "The Unthinkable," authored by David Challen, which chronicles the story of his mother, Sally Challen, who killed her abusive husband.

  • The book and its accompanying documentary reveal the implicit terror and invisible coercive control inside the family, with chilling details like the Christmas card controversy and home videos exposing anxiety and fear.
  • The Challen case was influential in UK law reform around coercive control.

• Notable Quote: "He would just take all of her jewelry away from her and say she didn’t deserve it. Things like that. Just infantilise her, treat her like a child." (Meshel Laurie, 10:48)

• Core Message: The book is both personal and universally resonant, showing how much children absorb from abusive households, and how hard it is to untangle complicated parental legacies years later.

• Listener Tip: Watch the Sally Challen documentary before reading the book for a fuller understanding.

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3. Interview: Lex Lasry on Justice, Death Penalty, and the Politics of Law

(14:32 – 21:22)

• Background: Lex Lasry, recently retired Supreme Court judge, discusses his career shift to podcasting, legacy, and core legal principles.

• Defining Legacy: Lasry hopes to be remembered for his tenacious opposition to the death penalty, particularly for representing clients like Van Nguyen.

  • "I would guess that it is that I fought pretty hard in death penalty cases and fought hard in public against the death penalty in other countries." (Lex Lasry, 15:16)

• Stance Against the Death Penalty:

  • Firmly committed due to belief in the higher values of society: "If you drop to the level of the criminal by killing the accused, then in many senses you know better. We're better than that kind of revenge." (Lex Lasry, 16:18)

• On Mandatory Sentencing:

  • Lasry critiques mandatory minimums, explaining how they undermine case nuance and can obstruct justice, particularly in domestic violence contexts.

• Self Defence in Domestic Murder:

  • Lasry explains how self-defence can apply when a woman kills an abusive partner, even outside of imminent threat: "You don’t have to have the knife in the stomach. If you have a belief that it’s necessary...that’s self defence." (Lex Lasry, 19:14)

• Law and Politics:

  • The podcast "Law the Podcast" aims to unravel complex intersections of crime, politics, and policy, with recent episodes touching on international legalities (like the Iran strikes), Assange, and controversial judges.
  • "A lot of people don’t want to admit that, but it is political." (Lex Lasry, 20:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Sally Ann:
  "What a hero, what a hero of a woman." (Meshel Laurie, 06:32)
• On the cost of whistleblowing:
  "She knew that would happen, she said so in the interview and she didn’t care, she was fed up." (Meshel Laurie, 05:28)
• On Rogerson’s public persona:
  "By that stage, everyone was sort of treating him like he was a bit of a cutie. And he still had another murder in him." (Meshel Laurie, 07:43)
• On abuse and control:
  "The panic in her, in that moment that she’s done something wrong, that she’s gonna get in trouble for it. He policed what she wore." (Meshel Laurie on Sally Challen, 11:22)
• On death penalty and justice:
  "To kill someone is just to reduce the community to that level." (Lex Lasry, 16:47)
• On the law’s political nature:
  "A lot of people don’t want to admit that, but it is political." (Lex Lasry, 20:59)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:32 — Meshel discusses the listener question, introduces the Sally Ann Huckstep case
• 05:28 — Meshel reflects on Sally Ann’s courage and the 60 Minutes interview
• 07:13 — Conversation about Roger Rogerson’s conviction and death
• 08:54 — Book club review: "The Unthinkable" by David Challen
• 10:48 — Chilling details of coercive control in the Challen family
• 14:32 — Start of interview with Lex Lasry
• 15:16 — Lasry on legacy: fighting death penalty
• 16:18 — Lasry explains principled opposition to state executions
• 17:10 — Discussion of mandatory sentencing and its effects
• 19:14 — On self-defence and legal nuance in domestic violence killings
• 20:59 — On the politics of law, as discussed in his podcast

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Episode Tone & Style

Lively, direct, and empathetic, with Meshel Laurie’s characteristic honesty and wit. The conversation rides the line between hard-hitting crime analysis and nuanced exploration of social justice, spiced with dark humor and candid reflections.

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Summary

"True Crime Tonight: The Case That Stays With Me" is a haunting, insightful episode highlighting the lingering emotional and social impact of landmark Australian cases like Sally Ann Huckstep's stand against corruption. The show's rich book club segment and deep-dive interview with Lex Lasry offer layered perspectives on the complexities of justice, trauma, and reform—making it essential listening for both dedicated true crime fans and newcomers interested in the human stories behind the headlines.

Transcript

[Michelle Laurie]

If you love digging deeper into the stories behind the headlines, there's a new podcast I think you'll love. It's called Law the Podcast from the team behind Australian True Crime, hosted by former Supreme Court judge lex lasry.am Peter

[Lex Lasry]

Dutton described me as a left wing

[Michelle Laurie]

ideologue and leading barrister Greg Barnes.

[Lex Lasry]

SC leave aside, you know, the issues of human rights, et cetera, it doesn't decrease your crime rates.

[Michelle Laurie]

Going beyond the headlines. To explain what the law means, why it matters and how it affects us all, get Law the podcast on the free Iheart app app or wherever you're listening now. Warning. This is a true crime segment and not suitable for children. It contains references to sexual violence and suicide, which some listeners may find distressing. If you need support, you are not alone. Contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or visit lifeline.org au for 24 hour support.

[Lex Lasry]

It's a voice that will send shivers down your spine.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Standoff with police wanted fugitive step 19

[Lex Lasry]

times the suspect lured the victim into the war.

[Michelle Laurie]

Biggest in Hollywood. Today is a major win to show what the system can do.

[Ruby Bartzis]

This is True Crime tonight.

[Michelle Laurie]

This is True Crime tonight. We're back again at Sunday night and that means True Crime tonight with me, Michelle Laurie and my producers, Matthew Tankard.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Hello.

[Michelle Laurie]

And Ruby Bartzis. Hello. Hello, guys. We're here every Sunday night from 6 till 7 where we bring you True Crime Book Club. We chat with our listeners. We interview some of the biggest names and faces in true crime, which is kind of a weird thing to say, but you know what I mean. You're true crime fans, so you know what I mean. And don't forget, this is a true crime show, emphasis on crime, so it's not suitable for kids. All right, coming up later this hour, we talk to Lex Lasry. Now, Matthew, you and I are Stans.

[Ruby Bartzis]

We're big fans of Lex Lasry. Well, he was our white whale for a long time for our podcast, Australian True Crime.

[Michelle Laurie]

Ruby, he was. He is a Supreme Court judge. He's only just retired from the Northern Territory Supreme Court. He's retired to become a podcaster, which is great. And I've met him once and he's the cutest little man ever. Well, and he'd probably hate me calling him cute, but I don't know that he's so lovely. Would hate it.

[Ruby Bartzis]

But I think he'd like it because I think he's happy to shake off, like, the seriousness of his history in Supreme Court. He said himself that if he had his time again, he wouldn't do it.

[Michelle Laurie]

He did. Oh, but I'm just imagining all the murderers sitting in court in jail right now. Who would love to hear that you think he's the cutest little man ever? Because they think, well, not always, mate. He's not cute when he's sentencing you anyway. He is delightful. There's no two ways about that. And that's coming up later in the show. But next, my favourite thing we hear from a listener that's on True Crime tonight. Hi, Michelle. After all of these years of covering and discussing a series of international and Australian true crime cases, it's probably a bit of a cliche question, but is there one that still sits with you that you always come back to, that you haven't really been able to make peace with in any regard that. That, you know, perhaps spurred you on to even enter into this space to begin with? And you've got lots of questions and not many answers for. Did she leave her name, by the way?

[Ruby Bartzis]

No, she didn't.

[Michelle Laurie]

Oh, well, thank you very much.

[Ruby Bartzis]

But that's part of the beauty of the True Crime hotline, by the way. If you want to be anonymous. Yeah, leave us a mess. It's just a voicemail. It's a speak pipe link in any Australian true crime podcast episode, show notes. And you can also find it on social media.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, it's like Crime Stoppers. You can be anonymous.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Exactly like Crime Stoppers.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yes. So similar. And you're being very specific in your question because you're asking if anything stuck with me. Cause I didn't really have answers. Cause my normal answer to this question about cases that stayed with me or episodes that stayed with me is always the episode about Sally Ann Huckstep, who she was many things. But one of them was a whistleblower about the New South Wales police in the 80s, late 70s, early 80s.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Is that the time of Roger Rogerson the Dodger?

[Michelle Laurie]

Roger the Dodger.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Roger the Dodger.

[Michelle Laurie]

He was like the king of New South Wales Police.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

In fact, a lot of people at that time thought he would eventually be Commissioner of Police, but actually he was just completely rotten to the core. And he is the very man that she blew the whistle about him and his crew because her boyfriend, Wayne Lanfranche was murdered by them. Wayne Lanfranche was a drug dealer, drug user and just a King's cross personality, colorful character.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yep.

[Michelle Laurie]

And he. Yeah, was. Was working with these coppers. Cause they were all in on the. On the drug trade. And somehow Wayne Lanfranche displeased the Dodger and So then Wayne said to his beautiful girlfriend Sally Ann, one day, I've got to go and meet the Dodger and some other blokes in this alleyway. He was shot in that alleyway and they said, the police said he had arrived with a gun and he'd ambushed them and all sorts of rubbish. So Sally Ann was a heroin addict, a sex worker, another colourful character in the Cross. And the reason I bring those aspects up is because at the time I don't know how different it would be now, to be honest. But in the early 80s that was not a person who most people wanted to hear from or would take seriously or would certainly take her word over police. And I have a very clear memory of sitting on the couch next to my mum watching mum's favourite show, 60 Minutes. And Ray Martin, her favorite guy, was interviewing this girl, Sally Ann Huxtep. And in this interview and so I'm like five, six. And you still remember this? I remember it so clearly because Sally Ann really took my imagination. She was beautiful. She was just had this way about her that was really charismatic. And she was telling Ray Martin she was blowing the lid off New South Wales Police. This was the beginning of the end for the corruption in that force and of course she was murdered for it a couple of years later. She knew that, she knew that would happen, she said so in the interview and she didn't care, she was fed up. And so after that very long preamble that is the episode that sticks with me because I just felt even more moved. We spoke to her sister and she talked just about how Sally Ann was always this really charismatic little girl, you know, had childhood memories of her and I, I just thought what a hero, what a hero of a woman. And at the time I remember my mum thinking or sort of saying things about her that you wouldn't. I wouldn't say now. I mean, you know, we wouldn't say it because we have different vibes about sex workers and things now. But at the time my mum and everybody else in Australia I think was thinking, why are they putting this girl on 60 Minutes? Well, she's probably talking rubbish.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Pretty ballsy by 60 Minutes too to be running a story, trying to take down basically the police.

[Michelle Laurie]

New South Wales Police.

[Ruby Bartzis]

New South Wales Police. Police.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I mean obviously the Dodger ended up dying in jail on a murder, in a murder conviction not too long ago.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Right?

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, he died last year, I think. Yeah, yeah, you know, convicted of murdering Jamie Gao, I think a 19 year old man and they were doing a drug Deal. When Roger's in his 60s or 70s, I mean, he was rotten to the core, this guy.

[Ruby Bartzis]

And he got to live. He's one of those guys, right, that got to live the majority of his life unchecked.

[Michelle Laurie]

Oh, totally.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Because didn't he retire from the police and then he would do like a. He went on the speaking circuit with what. Yeah, but also that other.

[Michelle Laurie]

That footy player, Mark Jackson. Yeah, Jacko.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah, yeah. You can see them on the footy show. And it's.

[Michelle Laurie]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But it just goes to show, too, that just because you're in show business doesn't mean you're still not an evil. I'm gonna say prick.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And I know you must be the first. Your children aren't listening, I hope. But, you know, he. By that stage, everyone was sort of treating him like he was a bit of a cutie. And he still had another murder in him.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

You know, so he was just rotten. And I love Sally Ann Huckstep for being the first person with the real balls to stand up to him and the whole system he'd created. And he was so. He was supported by politicians and everybody. Good on her. But we'll be back shortly with a different book recommendation. This is True Crime Tonight with Michelle Laurie across Australia. This is True Crime Tonight with Michelle Laurie, Matthew Tankard, and myself, Ruby Bartsis. Coming up, we've got an interview with Lex Lazari about his new podcast, Lore the Podcast. But first, Michelle, over to you with a book club review. Yep. I've been reading again and. Oh, this one. I have no hesitation in recommending such a good book. It's called the Unthinkable. It's by a guy called David Challen, and it's about the fact that his mother murdered his father. And. And his father was incredibly abusive throughout their lives, throughout the marriage. And so after she was convicted, her son. Well, she has two sons who both work together, but one who's particularly ambitious about all of this stuff, he worked for years to have her released from jail, basically. And they changed the laws in the UK about coercive control because of this case. So it's such a good book, and I recommend that you maybe do it the way I did it, which is there's a documentary about Sally Challen. It's a BBC documentary in Australia. I think it's on Stan, but you can just Google around, you'll find it. If you watch that first and then you read his book, it feels like you are hearing two people's versions of the same events.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

There's so many like and terrible events. He'll say, I don't know, everything just went weird on that holiday. But I felt like, oh, I know what happened, because as an adult. I know. But, you know, he's writing. As a kid, we went on holidays, then it turned bad. We went home early. I know what happened was that the guy that they were staying with tried to crack onto Sally. Her husband lost his mind and then he assaulted her very badly. But of course the kids don't know that, so It's Unthinkable's a really good book about growing up in coercive control and violence and trying to piece it together. We know that kids see and hear everything. We know that we as adults try and protect them from things we don't want to tell them. We think we're hiding things from them, but we're not. And so, yeah, it's a lot about him trying to piece together who's who in his own family. Who's good, who's bad, who's right, who's wrong. Cause his dad is constantly creating this impression, trying to create this narrative that his mum's terrible and for nothing in particular. He would just say. He would just take all of her jewellery away from her and say she didn't deserve it. Things like that. Just infantilise her, treat her like a child. He was physically violent with her too. There's an incredible moment in the documentary. They have quite a bit of home video and there's a little video of her sitting on the couch with her two sons. They're only little at this stage. They're toddlers. She's wearing a red dress. And her husband, who's filming. He filmed everything. He's always filming it. He said, you're wearing red and you can see her stiffen. And she looks up at the camera, so at him, and she says, you didn't say I couldn't. So horrible. It's so chilling. It's so real. It's so. The panic in her, in that moment that she's done something wrong, that she's gonna get in trouble for it. He policed what she wore.

[Ruby Bartzis]

And to even feel so comfortable policing while he's filming. I know as well, if you could just imagine what it's like without the camera.

[Michelle Laurie]

This is how comfortable this bloke was. Yeah, he went through a phase of. He worked in a garage in, like a service centre. You know, you go to the Holden service centre and get your car done, whatever. He worked in one of those. And one year he proudly comes home and says, oh, I've printed the Christmas card and I've sent it out to everybody already. Here it is. It's him sitting on the front of a flash car with two naked women. And it says, thank you for being serviced in adverted commas at our shop. Just Sally freaks out. She goes, you can't send that to people we know. You can't send that out. He's like, well, I have.

[Ruby Bartzis]

That's disgusting.

[Michelle Laurie]

So everyone's looking at her like, everyone thinks he's a creep. Everyone's just looking at her like, that's your husband. Like, did you know? Or this is how she felt.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

People thinking, do I know about this? Do I condone this? Or do they think I'm pathetic? He did it twice. He did it twice. He came home the next year and he goes, here's the Christmas card. And again, it's him with two naked women. Again. Hearing David talk about it from his perspective, about the day he gets a phone call to say that his mum has killed his dad. And at this stage, he's still not sure what's happened in their relationship. He's still not sure.

[Ruby Bartzis]

How old is he at that point, do you think?

[Michelle Laurie]

He's like, 18, 19? He's grown up.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

He's out of the house, got a job. He and his brother have got jobs. Sally and her husband, they had broken up for a period of time. She'd initiated that. She'd escaped. She got out.

[Lex Lasry]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

But she couldn't cope. She. She felt it was all her fault. She felt she'd made a terrible mistake in leaving him. Of course, he's encouraging those feelings in her.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

She says, I've made a mistake. Can we get back together? So he just sees a green light here to go for it. He writes up this list of demands. He'll take her back if she does all these things, agrees all to these things. And again, it's just. It's hideous. And she snaps. She snaps one day and she kills him brutally. And so, yeah, a lot of the book is David trying to make sense of his mum, who was this gentle, very meek, mousy lady who brutally attacked his dad, killed him. And on top of all of that, David's very talented, really, really great writer. So, yes, you won't regret it. The Unthinkable is the name of the book by David Challen. Please let us know what you think. Get ahold of it and listen to it. Also, I listen to it on audible, so he Reads it himself.

[Ruby Bartzis]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

Okay, so the book is called the Unthinkable. It's written by David Challen. It's available in every format, paperback, audible, Kindle. Just get your hands on it. You won't regret it. It's fabulous. This is true crime tonight. And finally, it's time to talk to the man, one of the hosts of the Law, the podcast. It's Lex Lasry. Lex Lasry, formally of the legal profession. Yes, newly. Of show business.

[Lex Lasry]

What a great description. 34 years, the bar. It's enough.

[Michelle Laurie]

It's a lot.

[Lex Lasry]

It's enough. And I'm just tired of dealing with other people's tragedies and conflicts, so it's good not having to do that.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, that is a lot, isn't it? That is every day at work is pretty much every day is someone else's tragedy.

[Lex Lasry]

Yeah. Well, I mean, in the Supreme Court, for me, it was mostly somebody else's death in one form or another, and it is for the other. I mean, it's not just me. All judges are the same. And I'd had enough.

[Michelle Laurie]

What do you think your legacy will be? What will you be saying about, you know, when in years to come, he became a podcaster. Yes, that's true. And then he became a podcaster, and he's a superstar. What do you think your legacy will be in legal circles?

[Lex Lasry]

If I had to guess without being egotistical about it, I probably. I would guess that it is that I fought pretty hard in death penalty cases and fought hard in public against the death penalty in other countries.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Lex Lasry]

I think. And there are other people who've done that and more, but probably that's. If anyone remembers me for anything, it'll probably be for that. I think it is Ben Nguyen and so on.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, it is pretty memorable because obviously you had a day job, you were busy. It's not like you were looking for a hobby.

[Lex Lasry]

No. And it wasn't much of a hobby. No, we lost. He was executed. So it was tough.

[Michelle Laurie]

And also, talk to us as someone who has seen, frankly, some of the worst of humanity. Why do you still say. Let's say you've seen Farquharson. You've seen people who a lot of us would say, shoot him. A lot of us would say, I hate this person. He's a malfunctioning human being. Why should he be allowed to live when he's murdered his three children, for example? That's one example. But you've seen hundreds of them, so why are you, of all people, so passionately Saying it is never appropriate to kill someone on behalf of the state

[Lex Lasry]

because I'm concerned about the civilisation of our community. And if you drop to the level of the criminal by killing the accused, then in many senses you know better. We're better than that, we're better than that kind of revenge. Sentencing has to occur. Community is entitled to be protected against dangerous people. But there are all sorts of other things about sentencing that can have a beneficial effect. But to kill someone is just to reduce the community to that level.

[Michelle Laurie]

And not to mention even really smart guys like you can sometimes get it wrong.

[Lex Lasry]

It can happen and does happen, has happened. We need to be careful. Our system basically still mirrors the British system. There's a lot of differences and I think in many ways ours is better. But in both systems things have changed, which I don't like. Mandatory sentencing's probably the best example of it.

[Michelle Laurie]

Describe mandatory sentencing for us. What does it mean?

[Lex Lasry]

It means there's an act of Parliament that says if you commit a particular offence then you get a minimum of 10 years imprisonment or whatever. Some of the provisions have a get out clause by saying unless there are exceptional circumstances, but others don't. So in the Northern Territory, for example, where I've recently been, the mandatory sentence for murder is life imprisonment. The mandatory minimum period for someone who murders their domestic partner is 25 years. I think there's an exceptional circumstances provision there as well. But if no one pleads guilty anymore because there's no benefit, the sentence is the sentence.

[Michelle Laurie]

There's a lot in there, isn't there? There's a lot, yeah. Because crimes are nuanced. Every crime has its own situation, its own details.

[Lex Lasry]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

And of course I am thinking about, okay, what if a woman murders her partner because he's been violent to her for 30 years and. But in that scenario she still gets this very heavy sentence, she's committed a domestic murder.

[Lex Lasry]

Well, yes, but I've had a couple of those cases and women in that situation are almost certainly able to run self defence.

[Michelle Laurie]

Okay.

[Lex Lasry]

On the basis that I had an honest point belief that if I didn't kill him, he was going to kill me.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Lex Lasry]

I had a famous example of that where the woman who was charged and was acquitted said, I've never forgotten the phrase she said, I looked at him and I know that look.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Lex Lasry]

And I'm sure that resonates with a lot of female victims of domestic violence. I knew that look.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Lex Lasry]

And so self defense is, I think, often available.

[Michelle Laurie]

So even that's interesting. Again, it's so nuanced. But I think the law is reflecting that more now. I mean, certainly with coercive control laws and things like that, isn't it? Because I would have thought to claim self defence, you would have to be in an absolute moment of threat. He would have to be in the process of trying to kill you rather than. I know that look.

[Lex Lasry]

Yeah. But no, you don't have to be. You don't have to have the knife in the stomach. You don't have to have got to that stage. If you have a belief that it's necessary to do what you did to defend yourself and save your own life or the life of someone else, a child, for example, then that's self defence.

[Michelle Laurie]

Okay, that's interesting. And positive. Positive development.

[Lex Lasry]

Yeah.

[Michelle Laurie]

What's happening on your podcast, though? Because I am like all about the crime. I'm all about the. You know. And then what happened, Lex? And who was that bloke? And I love that. Talking about your career. But firstly, you're very forward focused.

[Lex Lasry]

Yep.

[Michelle Laurie]

And secondly, this is about. There's a lot of politics in this show.

[Lex Lasry]

Well, because I'm doing it with Greg Barnes, who's a very energetic young man.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yes.

[Lex Lasry]

If young man is the correct description.

[Michelle Laurie]

I would describe you both as energetic young men, actually.

[Lex Lasry]

Yes. So it's called law, the podcast. It's intended to be about the law. We started, for example, in the first episode talking about the legality of the attack on Iran by the United States and Israel.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yes.

[Lex Lasry]

So that's an example of the sort of thing that we're wanting to talk. We do talk about criminal cases. We had Rob Starry on recently and we talked about crime with him.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yep.

[Lex Lasry]

Tim Marsh about mental illness and its intersection with the criminal law.

[Michelle Laurie]

We loved him.

[Lex Lasry]

We had Tim on.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah, Defence counsel.

[Lex Lasry]

We do those things. But we've just had Gabrielle Shipton, Julian Assange's brother, on talking about the Assange campaign and the resultant organisation that's developed from that campaign. So we're. And we've been talking about judges and particularly the controversial judges. I love controversial judges. So we'll always talk about them when they get into the media. So I hope it's pretty broad ranging. Yeah, there's going to be some politics involved.

[Michelle Laurie]

Well, it sort of reminds me of how political the law is.

[Lex Lasry]

It is.

[Michelle Laurie]

Yeah.

[Lex Lasry]

And a lot of people don't want to admit that, but it is political.

[Michelle Laurie]

Thank you to our guest, Lex Lazari. Can we say his name any more times? I don't think we can, but we're very, very stoked to have him on board. If you would like to listen to the full interview with him, which Matthew and I will obviously be listening to on our drive tonight, you can check out the conversation on our podcast, Australian True Crime, available on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ruby Bartzis]

And same goes for Law the podcast, by the way. That'd be out by now, so listen to the first two episodes of that.

[Michelle Laurie]

Oh God, you're mad if you don't seriously, because everyone's gonna be talking about it and you don't wanna be that person who can't keep up with the podcast.

[Ruby Bartzis]

You're gonna lose all of your friends, all of your community if you can't

[Michelle Laurie]

keep up with this Law the Podcast. And thank you so much for listening to this show, True Crime tonight. You can join us every Sunday from 6 till 7. We'll see you next week.