True Crime Tonight: The Epstein Files

Summary

Australian True Crime Podcast
Episode: True Crime Tonight: The Epstein Files
Host: Meshel Laurie (with producers Matthew Tankard and Ruby Bartzis)
Date: May 3, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of "True Crime Tonight" focuses on the latest true crime headlines across Australia, an in-depth review of the documentary There's Something Wrong with Aunt Diane, and a special feature interview with acclaimed 60 Minutes reporter Tara Brown. Brown provides insights and clarification about the infamous Epstein Files, cutting through conspiracy theories and explaining what is truly known about Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, and the incomplete quest for justice.

The show takes a critical look at Australian and international legal systems, the everyday humanity seen in courtrooms, and the global ramifications of the Epstein scandal.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Breaking True Crime News in Australia (01:13-06:09)

• Rebel Wilson's Court Battle: Actress Rebel Wilson is involved in a defamation suit, accused of harming another performer’s reputation via social media.
• Port Arthur Massacre 30th Anniversary: Remembering one of Australia's worst tragedies.
• Ben Roberts-Smith, War Crime Charges: Noted veteran commemorates Anzac Day while facing serious charges.
• David Burke (D4V D) Murder Trial:
  • Young rapper (21 y/o) accused of murdering 14-year-old Celeste Hernandez.
  • Discussion about how his notoriety on social media and even Fortnite, where he sold virtual "makeup," intertwines with public perception of his case.
  • Burke’s request to wear civilian clothing—part of the common courtroom ritual of “looking presentable”—was denied. Laurie and her team reflect on the mundane logistics of court, like sharing a “court suit” among friends, which highlights the blend of ordinary and extraordinary in the justice process.
• Quote Highlight:

  "Even in this extremely alien experience where you're in chains and your liberty is being decided, you... still just have to do all of the regular things. You have to get a haircut."
  —Matthew Tankard (04:25)

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2. True Crime Documentary Review: There’s Something Wrong with Aunt Diane (07:09-14:41)

Overview (07:09-07:33)

• Story of Diane Schuler, a responsible mother who caused a fatal car crash in 2009 while severely intoxicated, killing herself and seven others. The documentary probes the tension between her reputation and the shocking toxicology findings.

Family Denial and Investigative Tension (07:33-11:58)

• Family insists Diane was not a drinker despite conclusive reports.
• The documentary explores the psychological defense mechanisms in the face of unbearable truths.
• Second toxicology and private investigator confirmed the original findings.
• Themes of secrecy, high-functioning substance abuse, and societal denial are explored.

Gender Roles, Grief, and Public Judgment (11:58-14:41)

• Discussion about gender dynamics—Diane’s husband is perceived as uninvolved, leaving Diane with overwhelming responsibility ("He takes the dog, she takes all the kids").
• The story’s resonance with many families and mothers is emphasized.
• Memorable moment:

  "If someone has substance abuse issues, especially if you're someone who is known in the community as someone who's reliable, it's going to be a secret."
  —Matthew Tankard (11:21)

• The documentary's name comes from a haunting call:

  "Something is wrong with Aunt Diane."
  (14:02)

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3. The Epstein Files: Interview with Tara Brown (14:51–26:37)

The Scope of the Files (14:51-16:08)

• Brown describes the immensity of the Epstein document “dump” and the challenge in distinguishing between wild rumors and plausible, actionable claims.
• Some allegations remain unverified, e.g., deaths of young girls at Epstein’s ranch.

Quote:

"...the fact that there is a sense of possibility is something kind of new... because the truth itself is terrible."
—Tara Brown (15:12)

Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell’s History (16:08-17:13)

• Epstein displayed predatory tendencies before meeting Maxwell, as evidenced by reports from the Dalton School.
• Abuse, according to some, began as early as 1985.

Quote:

"He continued well after she left."
—Tara Brown (16:53)

The Prince Andrew Photograph & Public Perception (17:13-18:11)

• The crucial Ghislaine Maxwell email confirming the legitimacy of the photograph with Virginia Giuffre and Prince Andrew, debunking years of denial.
• Laurie expresses surprise it didn’t capture more headlines.

Quote:

"What this photograph proved was that they were lying. Virginia was telling the truth all along."
—Tara Brown (17:58)

Epstein’s Rise to Wealth (18:11-20:06)

• Epstein rose from a working-class Brooklyn background through manipulation, networking, and deception.
• Built his network by ingratiating himself to wealthy and powerful individuals, often misrepresenting his financial and professional abilities.

Quote:

"He just sort of seemed to have a play going on all the time."
—Tara Brown (19:41)

Extortion, Blackmail, and There’s No Proof—Yet (20:06-20:57)

• Popular theories abound that Epstein filmed and extorted influential figures.
• Brown: There is no tangible evidence (yet) of Epstein blackmailing the powerful, though the sex trafficking ring is well-established.

Quote:

"Certainly a sex trafficking ring. Yes. But in terms of blackmailing influential people ... so far, there's no evidence it did [happen]."
—Tara Brown (20:43)

The Wexner Connection (20:57-22:51)

• Explores the financial relationship between Epstein and Les Wexner (Victoria’s Secret founder): from trust to betrayal.
• Wexner made Epstein his sole financial advisor, later alleged being defrauded; also named as a “co-conspirator” by authorities, with unresolved accountability.

The Epstein Transparency Act & Political Momentum (22:51-24:29)

• Introduction to Rep. Thomas Massie, co-author of the Epstein Transparency Act, pushing for the release of all related files and the un-redaction of names.
• Focus on the U.S. government’s resistance to publishing names of potential co-conspirators versus survivors whose identities are exposed.

Quote:

"Really bringing to account the Department of Justice for basically hiding the names of potential co-conspirators and revealing the names of many of the survivors who wish to remain anonymous."
—Tara Brown (23:33)

The Redactions Controversy (24:29-25:23)

• Discusses frustration with key email correspondents’ names being redacted, e.g., disturbing messages referencing “torture videos.”
• Tara Brown: There are inconsistent or confounding justifications for which names are withheld.

International Response and Consequences (25:23-26:37)

• Greater consequences and appetite for justice observed outside the U.S.
• Examples: The UK (Prince Andrew), Norway (former PM), and others facing demotion or legal scrutiny.
• Brown notes that the truth is still unfolding; many stories, files, and consequences remain.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Even in this extremely alien experience where you're in chains and your liberty is being decided, you... still just have to do all of the regular things. You have to get a haircut.”
  —Matthew Tankard (04:25)

• “What this photograph proved was that they were lying. Virginia was telling the truth all along. I mean, it's just so sad that Virginia isn't around to see that.”
  —Tara Brown (17:57)

• "Certainly a sex trafficking ring. Yes. But in terms of blackmailing influential people... so far, there's no evidence it did [happen]."
  —Tara Brown (20:43)

• “There's absolutely wide held acceptance that the consequences seem to be followed through outside of the United States... There seems to be a lot of stories still to be told. There's still a lot of files to be released and there's still a lot of consequences to be seen.”
  —Tara Brown (25:48)

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Key Timestamps

• [01:13] Headlines segment: latest legal and crime news
• [07:09] Documentary Review: There's Something Wrong with Aunt Diane
• [14:51] Epstein Files interview with Tara Brown begins
• [17:13] Discussion of the Prince Andrew photograph and credibility
• [18:11] The mystery of Epstein’s wealth and manipulative skills
• [20:06] Theories about blackmail and lack of evidence
• [22:51] Rep. Thomas Massie and the Transparency Act
• [24:29] The issue of redacted names in the Epstein files
• [25:23] Global appetite for accountability in the Epstein case

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Tone and Takeaways

Meshel Laurie leads a candid, at-times wry discussion of both local and infamous international cases. The team and their expert guest Tara Brown avoid sensationalism in favor of skeptical, evidence-driven analysis—particularly on the Epstein saga, where the need to "separate fact from fiction" is paramount. The casual banter about courtroom fashion and the emotional response to true crime documentaries humanize the genre while confirming the seriousness and persistence of both local and international crimes.

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For Further Listening

Meshel Laurie closes the show reminding listeners that the full interview with Tara Brown and more on the Epstein case is available on the main Australian True Crime podcast feed.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Warning. This is a true crime segment and not suitable for children. It contains references to sexual violence and suicide which some listeners may find distressing. If you need support, you are not alone. Contact Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 or visit lifeline.org au for 24 hour support.

[B]

It's a voice that will send shivers down your spine.

[C]

Standoff with police wanted fugitive step 19 times.

[B]

The suspect lured the victim into the war. Biggest legal dramas in Hollywood Today is amazing. Major win to show what the system can do.

[C]

This is true crime tonight.

[B]

This is true crime tonight across the KISS network. And I'm your host, Michelle Laurie. I'm here with my producers, Matthew Tankard.

[C]

Hello.

[B]

And Ruby Bartzis.

[D]

Hello.

[B]

And every single Sunday night from 6 till 7, we'll bring you the latest headlines, true crime book and documentary recommendations and interviews. This is a true crime show so it's not suitable for kids. Coming up later in the hour, we'll talk to the legendary 60 Minutes reporter Tara Brown. She's going to help us separate fact from fiction in the Epstein Files. But up next, the latest breaking true crime news. Ruby, what's going on around the place?

[E]

Rebel Wilson was in court this week while also awaiting the birth of her second baby. She defends herself against one of two defamation claims stemming from her directional debut, the deb. Actress Charlotte McInnes claims Rebel defamed her in a number of social media posts and and implied she retracted her sexual harassment complaint to further her career. This week marked the 30th anniversary of the 1996 Port Arthur massacre. 35 people died while 23 others were injured, marking it the worst massacre in Australian history. Ben Robert Smith took part in an Anzac Day service last weekend, describing the day as important to the military community and those who have served. It comes as the former soldier is facing five charges of war crime murder relating to his alleged conduct in Afghanistan during 2009 and 20. And singer David Burke has pleaded not guilty to the murder of 14 year old Celeste Hernandez. The teenager's body was found dismembered in the boot of the artist's abandoned Tesla in September.

[B]

Now this David Burke character is, you may know him better if like me, you've read his name many more times than you've heard his name because his name, he spells his name D4V D. So I can hear you all around the country right now going, oh, that guy in the burial py,

[F]

I killed you and I didn't even regret it.

[B]

Remember when he sort of entered the zeitgeist? From my perspective anyway, when the car was found, and they said, okay, this young rapper, his car has been found with a human body in the boot. This is one of the very few times that both my children and I are invested in a story. By the way, they're sharing the latest from TikTok with me about this case as we go on. And one aspect that's taken my fancy is that the video game Fortnite is offering a refund to players who purchased David items. Apparently, David was selling makeup on Fortnite. Now, I'm assuming, as my children are constantly asking me for money for these games. And I always say, do you mean this is for a picture of something? And they go, yeah. So you're not actually buying makeup. I mean, I know that's obvious to you, too, but to me, I was

[C]

like, you're not buying real life makeup.

[B]

You're buying makeup for your character, bloody anything. You're just getting 40 bucks off your mum to pour into this stupid game so you can buy a picture of something. A picture of a jacket or a picture of sneakers. It's really frustrating and infuriating for a parent. But, yeah, I mean, that's the context of David Burke. This is the person we're talking about, obviously. On the other hand, an incredibly sad story. Not only is the victim 14 years old, but David himself's a very young man.

[E]

Yeah, I think he's only like, 21.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

And Ruby, did I see. I feel like I saw some news article that was saying that he wanted to get a new haircut and wear a dress shirt and pants rather than his jail clothes for the trial, but that got denied.

[E]

Yeah, he wanted new clothing, like a whole makeover before his preliminary trial.

[C]

Yeah. And you know what? We were recently at the Supreme Court, which is something that True Crime Tonight team does.

[B]

This is what we do.

[C]

We just found ourselves at the Supreme. And I was looking. We. We were in a court, and I was looking at the accused sitting in the dock, and I was looking at his hair, and I saw that he'd very clearly gotten a recent haircut. And this might sound like a, you know, a mundane thing to say, but that's kind of the point I'm making, that even in this extremely alien experience where you're in chains and your liberty is being decided, you. You still just have to do all of the regular things. You have to get a haircut.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

You have to choose what haircut you want. And it really kind of brings back the whole mundanity and just the human level of that person in the doc,

[B]

there's lots of stories about, you know, the suits, the making sure you've got, at the very least a white business shirt and a tie. And when you hang around the court, as I said to you that day in the morning, I said, God, it's so tense in this part of town. You see a lot of blokes in ties who look like they don't normally wear ties, you know. Yes, it was. And it reminded me of when I was in my early 20s. My best friend had a boyfriend who. He and his brother and their cousin shared a court suit for the magistrates.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So it's. These are. This is the mandanity, is that how we say it? The mundane aspect of going to court. Yeah, you have to. Someone's got to get this kid a suit. So David is looking ahead at that. He's on top of that and he's making sure he's not only got an outfit, but his hair is correct. And I'm guessing a young man of his generation has also got his eye on the fact that we're all gonna see it. This is gonna be on socials, this is, you know, so if he escapes this, if he makes it through this, he's gonna wanna make sure he never looked terrible during the process. He might be able to get back to his career at some stage.

[C]

Well, certainly that's all the difference, isn't it, with American courts and Australian courts. They've got cameras in there.

[B]

Yep, yep, yep. Look, I don't know if Jeffrey Epstein ever had a deliberate glow up before he gave evidence in any of his cases. The reason I bring that up is because later in the show we're talking to Tara Brown, who's going to give us a. What do we call it, a simplified sort of Epstein for Dummies. Although, you know, I think we all feel a bit dumb when it comes to the Epstein files, don't we? Where are we at? What's true, what's not? Are we going anywhere with all of this? Well, keep listening because coming up, Tara will let us know where we're at with the Epstein files. That's on True Crime tonight on Kiss. This is True Crime tonight on Kiss. Tara Brown and the Epstein files coming up soon. But right now it's time for one of my favourite things, and that is a documentary review. A true crime documentary review. So if you have an opinion about this, please leave it in the comments. Let's have a chat about this ongoing. And also, if you've never seen it, maybe you're about to find your next favorite doco, Matthew.

[C]

Well, I think that happened to me. I watched Something is Wrong with Aunt Diane the other day.

[B]

Classic.

[C]

It's about a woman named Diane schuller. She was 36 years old in 2009, and basically she's driving home from a camping trip with her family. Her husband goes in a separate car, and she's in a car with her daughter and three of her nieces who are little, right? Who are little. Yeah. They're like five and seven years old.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And what's really important to know is that Diane in the family is kind of just known as the responsible one. She's known as the one that everyone can rely on. She's the breadwinner in the house. She's got a really successful career, and basically everything seems completely normal. In the morning when they go to leave, they have a few stops on the way. They go to a gas station, they go to McDonald's. Everything seems fine.

[B]

Classic Mum Journey.

[C]

Classic mum Journey.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Then she drives onto the other side of the highway onto oncoming traffic going 70 miles per hour for about 2 miles with kids in the car.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And These are the 911 calls from that one.

[F]

State Police. 911, State Police. You got northbound Iconic. There's a city head in the right lane going southbound 91 1. Hi, I'm up at the Connick Expressway. We just passed 100 exit. 100ft. There's a car going like 30 miles an hour. The wrong direction.

[B]

No, it's in shivers down my spine thinking about that.

[C]

I know. And even the title. There's something wrong with Aunt Diane has that feeling too. And ultimately they do crash into an oncoming car. Eight people die, including Diane. The toxicology report comes out, and Basically she had 0.19 blood alcohol reading and also cannabis and THC in her system. So then of course, all of the headlines. Drunk, druggie mother. And so the whole point of the documentary is her family trying to change that narrative because they don't want her reputation to be that she's this, in their eyes, this incredible, reliable person. And there's like these two conflicting realities of people knowing Diane as this extremely reliable person. To then the fact that she had all of this alcohol and drugs in her system.

[B]

Yeah, they were like, she was blind drunk. Like, weren't they? When they saw the level, the toxicology level, they were like, she couldn't have been functioning. So she's left the campsite in the morning, seemingly fine. Oh, don't forget the bottle the vodka bottle was also in the car.

[C]

There's a whole bottle of vodka in the car.

[E]

So she'd been drinking while she dried.

[C]

Well, so this is what they say. So there's a few sightings of her after they leave the campsite. They stop at. Yeah, McDonald's and a gas station. And both times there's witnesses there saying that she's acting completely normal. You couldn't really tell that she's drunk. But I was just thinking with that, if you're only seeing someone for a minute and you don't know what they're like, usually kind of hard to make that call, don't you think?

[B]

Especially if. And I guess the gist of the documentary is had she been a highly functioning alcoholic for a really long time. Because there's no one in the documentary who admits to knowing that she was a drinker, particularly, let alone a woman who would drink that much, plus smoke some potatoes while she was driving home. So the tension is like, who was Diane? Isn't it, really?

[C]

Well, yeah, basically the documentary leaves it quite open. Yeah, basically her family think, yes, okay, there was this alcohol and drugs in her system, but, you know, she had the. I think it's called a tooth abscess.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And they were saying that she would have been in extreme pain, that she may have had, like, a first sip of the vodka to dull that and then some kind of, like, physiological.

[B]

Again, I think that's a stretch.

[C]

I know, but this is what they're

[B]

saying, because she stopped at the servo to get painkillers. Right? They didn't have it.

[C]

They didn't have it. Yeah.

[B]

So to me, again, that's the tension. And it is one of the most tense documentaries I've ever seen. And I think the way they unfold the story is really clever, too. Like, at first, you're like, she's had a stroke, she's had a medical episode. And then they fold in this toxicology report and suddenly everything changes, Which I love in a documentary. But as I said, no one comes forward and says, yeah, I knew she was an alcoholic. I knew she drank daily. But you've got this science, you've got this report saying, well, this is what was in her system, guys, when she died. And she was driving like someone who was very drunk.

[C]

And I think that's kind of by design. If someone has substance abuse issues, especially if you're someone who is known in the community as someone who's reliable, it's going to be a secret. So then obviously, when something like this happens, everyone is going to be in just full denial about it because not only do they not want to believe it, it seems like they literally can't believe it. They. That she could be capable of doing this.

[B]

Like her husband and his sister. Is that who it is? The sister in law. There's a woman and they just fighting and fighting to get another autopsy, aren't they? Another.

[C]

Which they did. And they, they hide their own private detective and another toxicology report is found and they found that everything was done great. The autopsy was done great. The results were the same.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So even in the face of that, the, the documentary shows this struggle between those two conflicting realities of. Well, the toxicology report shows this, but we can't believe this about the person we know.

[E]

I feel like it's so, so common for these people to go home and be functioning alcoholics.

[B]

Hugely successful people. Absolutely. And stressful. So her life's stressful. She's got a big career, she's got kids, her husband, to be honest, I think from a woman's perspective, Ruby, I'd be interested in your opinion when you've seen this. There's a lot of kind of, oh, well, her husband's a useless lump of. You know, like, we don't like the husband after a while because we go, hang on a minute. He's a grown man but he acts like a child.

[E]

Yeah.

[B]

The impression you get is this woman under so much pressure. Husband's not helpful.

[C]

I mean, it speaks, it kind of almost speaks to their setup. Driving home, he drove by himself and then she was responsible for driving all the kids back.

[B]

He takes the dog.

[E]

And was, was there a reason?

[C]

They don't say that in the documentary. And you know, it's also good to remember as well. This documentary was filmed six months afterwards, so still extremely raw. So, yes, I've been seeing all that stuff online about both him and the sister in law. That's pretty nasty.

[D]

I bet.

[C]

And I think if you literally can't believe that about your wife would do that and you've gone through so much trauma, it'd be hard to come across as likable on a documentary, I think.

[B]

Absolutely. And I didn't dislike him that much. In a way, my heart went out to him for his belief in Diane and for his continued fight to clear her name. If anything, I thought that was the most motivated he seemed to have ever been in his life to do anything, which is impressive and great. But the driving situation, Ruby, to me is just reeks of every mum and dad I Know where the dad'll go, I'll take the dog, babe. And you take all the kids.

[E]

All the kids. And that many kids too. Like I get you'd want to be with your cousins. But like.

[B]

So they're well behaved. But they're exactly. He could have taken half the kids, but he's left her with all these little kids who are well behaved. But still it's a cuss. Every mom knows this story.

[C]

And that's where the name for the documentary comes from because there's a few phone calls in this trip back. There's multiple phone calls are made off Diane's phone, some to wrong numbers, but one of them was one of the nieces. And she goes, she calls her dad, her brother, saying something is wrong with Aunt Diane. And then they tried speaking to her and then it's basically that you can't hear it in the documentary. But she's making no sense. She's being completely delirious.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So the oldest girl, she was like 8 or 9. She wasn't. And she's.

[E]

One of the kids passed away.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, there's one.

[B]

Diane's son.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But he has life changing injuries.

[C]

So yeah, there's something wrong with Aunt Diane.

[B]

Wrong with Aunt Diane. It is an absolute classic of the genre.

[C]

This is True Crime Tonight with Michelle Laurie, Kiss.

[B]

This is True Crime tonight across the Kiss network. And joining us to talk about the Epstein files from 60 Minutes, it's Tara Brown.

[D]

I don't want to make it sound like it's an explainer, but in a way that's what it evolved into. We certainly couldn't cover everything that had been dumped in the Epstein files right now in New Mexico following a tip. There's allegations that there were two young girls who died during violent sex on Epstein's ranch. And that's an allegation, so it is yet to be verified or, or even investigated properly. But you know, sadly, as your daughter's identified, that is not, perhaps not far from the truth. In the past you'd go, that's ridiculous. And let's move on. And there is a lot of ridiculousness in this. I think there are lots of extraordinarily outlandish allegations and tips and that's part of the issue with the Epsen files working through that. But the fact that there is a sense of possibility is something kind of new. If you can remove yourself some in some way from the more crazy conspiracies, because the truth itself is terrible.

[B]

Is there any evidence that Jeffrey was offending before he And Ghislaine teamed up together. Do you think this could have happened without her?

[D]

That's a good question, Michele, and I'd be lying if I knew the answer to that. I'm just trying to think of the dates because there's some suggestions that he was abusing girls as early as 1985.

[B]

And I know there's conjecture about when he and Ghislaine met, but I think

[D]

that was before they met. And certainly the tendencies to sort of be inappropriate around young women was evidenced by people at the school that he taught at in Dalton in New York City, one of an incredibly prestigious school. But the commentary from that was that he was. He made people feel uncomfortable. Look, I think that Jeffrey Epstein was very capable of assaulting young women, and he had a penchant for it, I think, well before Ghislaine Maxwell came on the scene. And he continued well after she left.

[B]

I think one of the pieces of information that sort of floated to the top in the Epstein files being made public is the email in which Ghislaine confirms that that photograph of Virginia and Prince Andrew and Ghislaine taken in her. Her house in London is legit after years of claiming that it wasn't.

[D]

Oh, it was huge. And I think I was kind of surprised and a bit disappointed that it didn't capture the headlines as I imagined it would. You know, the, the dispute about the photograph captured the headlines. The former Prince Andrew was, you know, was happy to call Virginia a liar, and so was Ghislaine Maxwell. From an interview in jail, she said she knew she was lying. What this photograph proved was that they were lying. Virginia was telling the truth all along. I mean, it's, it's just so sad that Virginia isn't around to see that.

[B]

You alluded to a few minutes ago the difference in Jeffrey Epstein's life to the, to the, those of the young women that he was preying upon. But his life wasn't always. He wasn't born into that, that money. One of the questions that sort of remains is how did he get there?

[F]

How.

[B]

How did he make it from a working class kid in Brooklyn to a billionaire?

[D]

Well, I think it started really back when Epstein was a kid living in Brooklyn. And what I mean by that is that he somehow was either born with or learned the tools of being able to take a lot of money from seemingly sophisticated investors and businessmen. You know, the New York Times has done some great work on this, and what, you know, what they say they've uncovered is a man with an incredible Possibly an unrivaled ability to lie and driven to be wealthy. So in those, you know, as you identified, he. He came from kind of a working class background. He didn't go to any special schools or universities, but he had this drive to get out of that neighborhood, and he had a drive to be rich, according to people who went to school with him. And he set himself on a trajectory of making contacts. He seemed to understand that to get far in this world, in the world he wanted to be in, it came down to who you knew. And so he was very adept at making those connections, and he was very adept at scamming and lying and selling himself as some sort of financial whiz. He just sort of seemed to have a play going on all the time.

[B]

We'll be back with more Tara Brown after this break. This is True Crime tonight on Kiss. And part two of our Epstein conversation with Tara Brown. Is there any evidence that he was extorting people, that he was befriending people, either getting secrets from them or actually filming and recording them in awkward scenarios and then blackmailing them? Is that a fact or is that another theory?

[D]

Well, it's a theory at this point. And in fact, while that theory has been very popular, there doesn't yet seem to be any evidence of that. Certainly a sex trafficking ring. Yes, but in terms of blackmailing influential people, I don't know that you can say it didn't happen, but so far, there's no evidence it did.

[B]

That's one of the theories around the Wexner money, isn't it? That somehow, through some scenario, he's extorted money out of Wexner, the founder of Victoria's Secret. Was Jeffrey stealing from him, or was Wexner a co conspirator? Was there an arrangement between them? How did so much of Wexner's money end up in Jeffrey's possession?

[D]

Well, I think the. I think it starts again. It's. It's. Has parallels with how he was able to sexually abuse so many young people. That. That. Because I think the relationship with Les Wexner to begin with was. Was one of trust and friendship. And Jeffrey Epstein sold himself as a financial whiz. He was the only guy who knew what was going on. And he could find all those missing assets that your other advisors have lost, that he could bring something new. And I think as a businessman, Les Wexner was very attracted to that. And again, Jeffrey Epstein was very good at selling himself. And so we have a situation where Epstein becomes pretty much Liz Wixner's sole financial advisor. He is given power of attorney, which means that he can make lots of financial decisions on Liz Wexner's part. Now, in 2019, Liz Wexner claims that he was tricked by Jeffrey Epstein, that he'd been lied to, that Epstein had stolen lots of money from him and that it was a terrible mistake. But we've also learned from the Epstein files that Liz Wexner had been named as a co conspirator by the FBI and the Department of Justice. What we don't know is why that went nowhere.

[B]

You introduced us to a fellow I was not expecting, a Republican congressman from Kentucky who is, seems to be the spearhead of the fight to keep the files in the news, to actually bring about some real resolution to this situation. Tell us about him.

[D]

Yeah, so Thomas Massey is the co author of the Epstein Transparency Act. And so effectively he and a Democrat congressman made sure that these Epstein files were released. And that's what the act essentially and in a very simple way does. So he was saying there are all these files and they need to be released. It was a promise made by Donald Trump to do so. And Thomas Massie has made sure and is fighting for them to be released. And you know, really bringing to account the Department of Justice for basically hiding the names of potential co conspirators and revealing the names of many of the survivors who wish to remain anonymous.

[B]

You've just led us into a good area which is the redaction of names in the files. We see so many files redacted and most importantly the names of people who are sending emails to Jeffrey and whom he is replying to. And there are some really disturbing, some classics that are all over the Internet. Someone writes him an email saying I loved the torture video, but we don't know who that email is from. Someone wrote one saying, thank you for a fun night. Your littlest girl was a little naughty. And again, we don't know who sent that email and it's incredibly frustrating.

[D]

Yeah, so I mean, Thomas Massey and his supporters are pushing for those names to be revealed and they say that in some cases they do know who those people are. The defence of not revealing their names in some instances it's. Well, in the case of the naughty one, the suggestion is that that was actually written by a woman, which does not mean that that is not a co conspirator. But in somehow, in this very confusing way, they've just automatically redacted the author of that email. There are redactions that, that were made by the FBI. And Thomas Massey is calling for those redactions to be removed. And then there are redactions made by the Department of Justice. And it does seem that there are in some cases there are good reasons that in other reasons are just. It's confounding.

[B]

Americans are saying, hang on a minute, how come the Brits have started arresting people and we haven't? Do you think there is more of an appetite for it in other countries? I've got the list of. And you again in the documentary sort of talk about the people who have faced consequences around the world, who've lost jobs, lost titles, all sorts of things. Is it the Prime Minister of Norway or somebody? I should say the former Prime Minister of Norway, Thorben Yaglund.

[D]

Yes. And the Crown Princess. No, I think you're right. There is absolutely wide held acceptance that the consequences seem to be followed through outside of the United States. So yes, you know, certainly in the United Kingdom with the biggest scalp of all in terms of the arrest of the former Prince Andrew. I mean, they're all very quick to say, just because you are friends doesn't mean you were involved in illegal activity. And of course that is true. But that doesn't mean that the investigation should stop here. You know, we're still interested in pursuing it. There seems to be a lot of stories still to be told. There's still a lot of files to be released and there's still a lot of consequences to be seen.

[B]

And that's it for True Crime tonight on Kiss for this week. I'll be back next Sunday night at six with producers Matthew Tankard and Ruby Bartsis. If you'd like to hear more of our Epstein conversation with Tara Brown, you'll find it on the Australian True Crime podcast.