A (2:52)

I'm going to tie in the stories about youth gangs as well because oftentimes this is reflected as, you know, our teenagers are wild. There's gangs on the streets, sometimes there's racial connotations, there'll be like Sudanese gangs or something. But actually these are young people who are being recruited by proper criminals, aren't they?

B (3:10)

They are. And it's almost kind of like, it's been described as almost like an airtasker. So I'm not suggesting they're being recruited on Airtasker, but they are being recruited on other similar apps. So that could be Signal or even Roblox, which is a gaming app, you know. And they're literally posting jobs for them to do. The jobs are being posted, posted anonymously. But often they also want video evidence of the job being done. So there's that post and boast thing because the kids get some cred from I just did a firebombing amongst their peers, you know, they, they don't really understand the implications and a lot of them want to get involved in these gangs because they see the lucrative nature. You know, they're getting rewarded. Key element of this is reward. So they're posting their videos of their successes and we're literally talking like $500,000 up to say 10 or 20,000 for more serious crimes. But the ones the kids are doing, like literally 13, 14, 15 year old kids, few hundred dollars to firebomb a tobacconist or, or a nightclub or, or wherever.

A (4:11)

200 bucks is a lot of money still for a 13 year old for sure.

B (4:15)

Which is why they're doing it. Because they see I get a few hundred bucks and the kudos don't see. And the kudos they. And the access to potentially becoming one of these gang members where, you know, they think that's a good thing, but obviously they don't understand the implications, the consequences. They could get injured, other people could die. People are being injured because they're throwing firebombs around and they just don't get how serious this is.

A (4:39)

There's always, you know, sort of residential properties around these areas as well, particularly the tobacco shops. There were a lot of flats upstairs

B (4:46)

and yeah, and we saw somebody be kidnapped, didn't we? And it was just the wrong person being kidnapped because the bumbling kidnappers went to the wrong house. The family's horror story is still evolving as the case file on wrongly abducted grandfather Chris Bagzarian thickens. Police maintain the 85 year old widower was snatched from his bed in the early hours of February 13th after a group of men burst into his North Rite home and bundled him into a waiting car. He was driven to a property in Dural used as a stronghold where investigators say he was tortured and held for ransom. They believe he was killed shortly after his body found near a golf course at Pitt Town 11 days later. You know, I'm kind of making light of that, but somebody died.

A (5:35)

Yeah.

B (5:35)

You know, this is, this could not be more serious because these amateurs are out there being paid small amounts of money and they just don't have a clue what they're doing. And they're putting members of the community and the public at risk.

A (5:49)

There's this word that's being bandied around because everyone's saying, we don't know who's behind it. We don't know who it is. But it's. Is it this group called the Cartel, which is very camp. To me, it sounds like someone's, you know, seen a movie and like the Cartel is just such a simplistic, basic name.

B (6:04)

Well, it is. And what does that even mean? I mean, is that just an acronym for kind of these organized gangs that are online? We don't know whether it's an international group because obviously these jobs can be posted anywhere. Crime is international. Drugs, guns, like all these trades, alcohol, tobacco, they're all international. So all these networks working in different places in the world. You know, it's been suggested to me that this could be a Russian group that are doing this. Is it Russian? Is it. I don't know, it could be anyone.

A (6:35)

Right.

B (6:35)

Because it's all anonymous.

A (6:37)

I'm fascinated by the Iraqi connection. We know that there was a young man, an Australian man, 23 year old, who was based in Iraq, Kazim Hamad. He was allegedly directing a lot of the violence around the tobacco industry.

B (6:50)

Right. But it could be that he's, he's escaping warrants here or it's getting a bit hot here.

A (6:54)

Well, he was arrested in Iraq.

B (6:56)

It's all alleged though.

A (6:57)

Yes. To get sued. No, we do not. Certainly. I don't want to upset this fellow in any way. Xanthi. I do.

B (7:02)

No. By the way, I live in. I don't know, Singapore. Yeah.

A (7:06)

Just in case he's looking for me. We live ages away and, and we don't have anything against this fella, but he was arrested in Iraq in January 2026 by the Australian Federal Police and Iraqi authorities.

B (7:19)

That's interesting that we managed to get an arrest warrant in Iran. Yes, that's interesting that we, we have that kind of relationship. I mean, yeah, I mean, possibly if he's organizing allegedly things here. But what happens with these gangs though? The problem is if, if one person is arrested or one piece is taken out of play, as it were, then that void is filled pretty quickly. So, you know, these gangs are not going away.

A (7:46)

Well, it's interesting timing when you look at that. I guess if he was arrested in January, these firebombings have really ramped up since then.

B (7:53)

Yeah, absolutely. We've seen something like over the last two, three weeks we've seen at least 15 that have been all connected to this, all the hospitality and it seems to be around that illicit alcohol trade.

A (8:07)

Yeah, right.

B (8:08)

And so, yes, somebody has stepped into that void and is really upped the ante in the last few weeks.

A (8:14)

Okay, so this is about. I hadn't even joined the dots on the alcohol. I couldn't figure out what was going on. But that makes sense because we know that the tobacco war was about importing cigarettes from overseas. Cheap cigarettes, selling them cheaply. I've told you before, every mum I know smokes these illegal cigarettes. A lot of Australians just don't see the problem with it. All they see is that the Australian tobacco has a tax on it that makes it 50 bucks a packet. And these ones are feeding, which I get.

B (8:42)

Right, but they're feeding organised crime. They're like. And these the same people who are involved in people smuggling and sex trafficking and all these other things that we would go, oh, that's awful.

A (8:55)

Yeah, I don't want to support that,

B (8:57)

but no, oh my God, we wouldn't support that. But I'll go and buy my, my cheap, cheap cigarettes. Was. I don't want to pay 50 bucks pack.

A (9:03)

Right.

B (9:04)

Which, yeah, okay, but you're actually giving this money to these organized criminals, just like when you buy illicit alcohol. But so it feels like it's only one person doing something a bit naughty. But actually the people engaging with black market goods are feeding this industry and causing this harm. If there was no money in it, these criminals wouldn't be doing it. But equally, is it something, you know, do we need to start looking at the way things are taxed? Because the the more and more expensive these things get. People will find ways around it, the criminals will get involved and supply it on the black market. And these are the kind of issues we're going to have. So this is not something we can police our way out of. This needs to be a whole system. We need to look at the way we're taxing things. We need to look at the conversations we're having around this. Do not feed these criminal gangs by buying these products.

A (9:55)

Isn't it a fascinating knock on effect from this very simple idea the Australian government had, however many years ago, probably 20 years ago now, saying, oh look, we've got too many people smoking, it's bad for their health, it's costing us money.

B (10:07)

Make it too expensive.

A (10:08)

Yeah, let's try and stop them doing it. And we only have to look back a hundred years in the United States when prohibition of alcohol, exactly the same thing was a law and it gave rise to the mafia in America. Yep.

B (10:20)

And you've got the speakeasies right, where all the alcohol is still available. It's just available on the black market. And people are still gonna, people are still gonna engage in the things they enjoy. I've never smoked, but you know, if they said alcohol's il, I'd be like, well, how am I gonna have my glass of wine on date night?

A (10:38)

You know, like that is an interesting question. Let me put you on the spot, you know, with everything you do know, with everything you know about, you know, can you even see a place where you would think, bugger it, I, I want my bottle of wine. The law is stupid, you know, I know where I can get wine. I'm gonna one bottle. I'm not, you know, one bottle, I'm only one bottle.

B (11:01)

You know what, I totally get it. I do. But I probably wouldn't because I know that I'm feeding that illicit trade that comes from that, even those little acts. And I also married a police officer.

A (11:11)

That's not helping. You two are not a good example.

B (11:14)

But you know, because I know what the bigger picture is just because of what I do. But I totally get why those little acts that look like more like you're being a little bit deviant rather than breaking the law, you know, and it

A (11:26)

feels like you're against the government. It feels like you're sticking it up,

B (11:30)

you're being a bit naughty because you're not doing what you're told by overreach of the government. Right. That's how it feels. Whereas actually by buying them, you're feeding those Underground trades which leads to real serious harm. You know, every, every one of our neighborhoods, there'll be people who've been sex trafficked or being used as, you know, free labor in homes. So if you just look around, like, you won't see it because it's very covert, but it's there. It's the same people trading in humans as alcohol, as drugs, as cigarettes.

A (12:04)

Every now and then we do a story breaks through. You know, in Australia recently, we had a story of a couple who were prosecuted because they had a maid in their home who they didn't pay and they didn't always feed. I mean, he was a slave.

B (12:17)

We're talking slave labor. Literally slave labor. Sane people. Do you want to fund them? Is the question you need to ask yourself when you're buying your cigarettes. And I would also add, smoking is really bad for you.

A (12:31)

So, you know, well, this is it. This is why the government, you know, raised the taxes to try and keep us alive, theoretically. Also, they love big tax, but I guess they never realised that.

B (12:41)

I think it's also that.

A (12:42)

Yeah, I guess they never realised that somebody would slip in and take advantage of that space in between. But then again, as I said, of

B (12:49)

course they were going to.

A (12:50)

They should have realised this historically happened.

B (12:52)

Of course they were going to. Yeah, yeah, we've got. Yeah. History shows us that when things get too expensive, especially we're in a cost of living cris now we've seen, you know, the interest rate go up again just, you know, very recently, people are struggling, people are hurting. And so, yeah, if they can get their cigarettes for, I don't know, $20 a packet, $25 a packet, they're gonna do it, right?

A (13:15)

13 Xanthi, $13.

B (13:16)

13, 13. Massive difference. Massive difference.

A (13:20)

Well, that's what it is in my neighborhood anyway. What do you make of this, this fellow who, again, we don't know what anyone's done, but he's alleged to have been running a. A criminal organization from Iraq, 23 years old. Again, to me, that's not what we imagine. That's not the kind of person.

B (13:40)

These entrepreneurs, these young entrepreneurs doing it.

A (13:43)

Yeah. Where does that come from, do you think? I mean, you're our data person.

B (13:47)

Well, look, you know, young people are getting more and more involved online. He's probably allegedly, possibly got connections. He's learned to do this, you know, on, on Mass. We've. We're seeing things more and more crime being conducted online and when you can do it from your computer and you can organize a firebombing via, you know, signal. And it's all encrypted and it's. It's hard to. For that to come back and bite you because it's, it's so anonymous. And it's an easy way to make money, right, if you've got the connections to bring the goods in. Yeah. These young people are very motivated to make a good living at this.

A (14:25)

Well, aren't we all? We're all looking for an easy buck, aren't we? We're all looking for a way to make a lot of money easily and seems like there are ways to do that. Now, what about this message, this WhatsApp message that's apparently gone around to businesses in Melbourne? It says, hello, if you. Very nice start.

B (14:41)

That's nice.

A (14:42)

Hello, that's lovely.

B (14:43)

Was there a comma after it? Was it, well, punctuated?

A (14:45)

No, the punctuation's terrible. But anyway, it says, hello, if you got this message. We are after you, your family, your business, homes and souls.

B (14:55)

Wow.

A (14:56)

We will take it by force. If you don't comply, the police can't help you. It's inevitable. We won't stop till we get what we want. Now, this message arrived in the whatsapps of business owners, bar owners around town. There's obviously confusion about whether it's real, is this a copycat group?

B (15:16)

But also it doesn't even say what they. What they want. And that's. That's been something that's been a question over all of these bombings. No demands have actually been made. So I did wonder whether they don't actually necessarily want anything from these specific businesses. It's not about, we want a ransom from you particularly. It's just about putting the fear of God in all of these hospitality businesses so that when somebody does come knocking on your door and say, you know, we want some money, sell these products, you're not going to say no, because it's like, look what happened to your competitor down the street. We firebombed them three times in two weeks. So it's a warning. Is this a warning that these demands are coming?

A (15:58)

Yeah, preparing people, I guess. And to me, it's terrorism, isn't it the point.

B (16:02)

It absolutely is terrorism.

A (16:04)

The point of terrorism is that one attack over here actually terrifies everybody.

B (16:09)

And that's the point, right? You can. You can harm a small group of people, but do it in such a way that you cause fear amongst a whole city. You know, how long before this spreads to, if it works, Sydney and Brisbane and other places. I'm interested by that. Message, though, because apart from the lack of punctuation, which does upset my ocd, saying you're after your souls, this to me doesn't sound like somebody who's a native English speaker the way that was written to me. That sounds like something written by somebody where English is a second language, don't you think? Can you see most people who are sending a threat that are English speaking going, we want your soul.

A (16:52)

It's a bit over the top, is

B (16:53)

actually nothing to do with it. What they want is for them to sell the illicit tobacco or alcohol or whatever.

A (16:59)

It's over the top, but it's also adds to the terror of it for me. I'm like, oh, my God, they want my soul.

B (17:05)

I know that to me sounds really strange and makes me wonder who wrote that.

A (17:08)

It also reminds me, I'm reading a book about the Ndrangheta at the moment and so it reminds me of that, the way the Calabrian Mafia is steeped.

B (17:16)

You love your downtime, don't you? I do, yeah.

A (17:18)

Yeah. Just chilling, you know, just reading about the Calabrian mafia and how it's steeped in that. That very superstitious kind of Catholicism.

B (17:26)

It's like the horse's head on the bed. It's got that kind of element of Mafia Mafioso to it, doesn't it?

A (17:33)

That real old school Mafioso.

B (17:35)

You expect people to have those guns with those like round barrels on them. You know, it's just.

A (17:39)

And the hats.

B (17:40)

It is a bit like that in Melbourne at the moment, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it's. It's like the gang wars all over again. And the police have obviously set up task forces to try and deal with this. They'll be trying to investigate where that WhatsApp message has come from. But we know WhatsApp is, is incredibly difficult to trace. They'll be trying to figure out exactly what the game plan is here without any ransoms being demanded as yet. But, yeah, I think the young people we've really got to worry about are young people getting involved in these crimes. Because even if you take out those small pieces, they're the ones who are going to get caught, but they're going to be dozens, hundreds of others willing to step up into those places.

A (18:18)

Yeah. And teenagers are mental at the moment. Xanthi, I have to tell you this as the mother of two.

B (18:23)

You have teenagers, don't you?

A (18:24)

I have two. And mine are pretty sedate and pretty. They're scaredy cats. But in general, I Covid and their online lives and all of this has made them a generation that the rest of us are finding really hard to get our heads around. I think they're, they're a different animal.

B (18:40)

Certainly as a university lecturer I saw significant changes in the students that came to university after Covid. I mean I've been doing it. God, I'm not going to say how many years now. Long time. Right. So I had a big period pre Covid, then I obviously taught through the COVID years and then the post Covid years. And there was a huge shift, I mean, trying to get students back into the classroom. So many had anxiety, depression issues, social anxiety. They couldn't come into a room with other people. I'd have them messaging me going, I can't come to tutorial because I can't get out the car. I'm in the car park. Yeah, like serious social anxiety. And everything in the world got wrapped up with online likes, rewards for doing things. And that's what we're seeing here. These really risky behaviors being rewarded financially or with likes or with kudos. The post and boast issue that we've got. So that's our big problem. How do we actually undo that and take that reward system away so that young people no longer want to engage in these activities because they're not seeing the benefit of it.

A (19:51)

And superficially it seems like two ends of the spectrum when we're talking about one kid who can't get out of their car to go into a university tube because of anxiety and another kid who's doing firebombings. But to me they're the same. Yeah, to me it really, they're related in this really skewed relationship with our society.

B (20:09)

Yeah. And getting self gratification is achieved by impressing other people. They can't just keep themselves happy anymore. It's always gotta be about how do I, how do I get adoration or credit or something from someone else.

A (20:24)

I talk about self soothing with my kids. I say to them, God, when you were, you know, thinking three months old, I had to teach you how to self soothe so you can put yourself back to sleep at night. And I feel like we're doing the same thing now at 16. I'm trying to teach you to self soothe. Like just be, take care of yourself and not seek it outwardly.

B (20:44)

Yeah. And they, but they are seeking it outwardly. And I wrote a piece with some colleagues for the Conversation recently and it was about crimefluencers. And I don't know if you've ever heard about that. What is that? But they're basically, it's a disorganized criminal networks online who are actively engaging young people to commit crimes not for money. So it's a slight sideways, but for actual, just sadistic pleasure. So the things they're getting them to do are self harm, hurting animals, hurting their siblings, hurting strangers and posting the images. So again, part of this online reward, it's like a game they get these kids to play. It's like, how far will you go? And the further you go, the more rewards, the more points you get for what you've done. And it's pure sadism, sadistic pleasure. And these are other kids egging on, for want of a better phrase, coercing people into doing more and more serious things. And so it's all part of this online world. And this is a new phenomenon. And sadly a lot of girls are being preferentially targeted, kind of preteens, teenagers, ones who are already vulnerable to other people's expectations and you know, needing those likes to feel good about themselves. And they may have histories of self harm or depression, et cetera. And they're the ones who are getting caught up in conducting these activities and they don't know how to get out of it because by time they realize how serious it is they're in, right? They posted these videos, they've committed criminal acts, you know, they're in trouble. And so it's all this online coercion and it is coercive control. It's a new form of coercive control that we're seeing and it's being perpetrated a lot of the time by young people against other young people. So there's this whole scary online world and our young people are caught up in it in a myriad of ways. And some of those ways are criminal and I don't wanna scare all the parents out there, but some of those ways are criminal. And these kids are committing serious acts of harm against themselves, against other people. And they will be the ones held to account when actually we need to be finding out who's organizing it, who's orchestrating it, who's generating these activities.

A (23:02)

I think we do need to scare parents because I think there's too, too much.

B (23:06)

I think we need to scare the kids too.

A (23:07)

Absolutely. Don't do this because the messaging is too skewed in the direction of, as I said, it's Sudanese gangs. It's like a certain kind of kid. And I think it's important that we say no, it's not about that.

B (23:20)

It's not a Lot of the kids who are committing these criminal acts, like as part of these gang, you know, these firebombings, they're vulnerable kids too.

A (23:27)

Yeah.

B (23:28)

So they're the ones who maybe not in school, they may have already had contact with the police, they may be in out of home care. So they're the ones who already don't have adults who are there protecting them, intervening, you know, they're already vulnerable, so they are easier to target and coerce into these activities.

A (23:49)

Criminology, you've taught me over the years, is a lot about data. It's a lot about collecting data, comparing data.

B (23:55)

I love my data.

A (23:56)

I know, right? And I love it. You've given me a love for it. But what do you think historically, what are we going to see this period of time as? I mean, it feels at the moment like it's just out of control, spinning out of control. But what do you see as the patterns and the reality of what's happening?

B (24:13)

God, that's. I think we're gonna look back in 10 years time and see the level of harm that's been caused to young people. That I think. I mean, talking to my dear friend and colleague Tim Watson Monroe, when Covid was on, we recognized the harm that was being caused to young people and their social development at the time. And we knew then that that tail was gonna be long. Like, how is this whole generation of people gonna recover? And also kids, you know, who for years didn't meet any other kids, how do you then provide them the social interaction and skills when they've been stripped of that?

A (24:46)

It's only two years, but it made

B (24:47)

a massive difference, huge difference in social development, you know, and especially for teenagers, those preteens, teens who were hitting those ages where social interaction was important. And we gave them this really warped world in which they lived online for likes. And we're still seeing, we're still seeing that play out now, we haven't had that. And I don't think the ban on under 16s on social media has really helped. They found a way around it. Platforms aren't necessarily being particularly supportive of that ban. So I think there are some things that we can do to help. Help kind of drive kids away from these activities. I think education, we need to educate them and the parents. But an education campaign needs to be from the other young people. Yeah, maybe young people who've been caught up in this, who've. Who, you know, who've seen the problems, who've suffered the consequences.

A (25:38)

I've noticed a few organisations popping up Because Australia's becoming more interested in the Scottish example. What do you know about the Scottish example?

B (25:47)

Just that they're really trying to tackle this harm being caused to young people and how to educate them and divert them away from engaging in the activities. So they've set up all kinds of educational platforms and a lot of that, I think is being driven by young people. Because, like, we can sit here and we can talk to young people till we're blue in the flea site and a 16, 17 year old is going to look at me and think I'm super uncool, although I like to think I'm cool. But, you know, kids look at us and go, what do they know? Right. But another 17 year old who's, who's maybe been to juvenile detention or who was harmed in a firebombing or something, they can reach them on a different level. So I think we're seeing that kind of thing being trialed, like how to reach these young people. That's going to be a lot more successful. But also I think we need to take away the rewards generally on these platforms. The likes, the posts, the boasting, the algorithmic upscaling of, of harmful content. If you take away the reward element, kids aren't going to want to do it anymore.

A (26:52)

That's so interesting. I never thought about it that way. Was it, was it Instagram that did it for a while and then put them back where you could see how many likes someone else could have. But if we remove like system.

B (27:02)

Yeah.

A (27:03)

What an impact that remove the likes,

B (27:05)

take away the, the incentive because we've actually made a game of harm. Yes.

A (27:10)

Yep.

B (27:10)

And we need to take away that reward system. I mean, I don't know how many apps you use that they use this. We call it gamification. So on my health apps, it's like, oh, you've won this badge because you've done this. You've trained for so many days in a row. Or my hydration app. Great. You've drunk so many water bottles, you've saved this many fish. Like, you know, like it's all of this reward system.

A (27:30)

My watch congratulates me for standing up.

B (27:33)

Right. Mine too.

A (27:34)

Right.

B (27:34)

Because it's the health thing and it's like, oh, if you do just do a few moments movement, that'll be good for you. Great. In health, in education, these kind of rewards can be really beneficial and you feel like, oh, but it's the same in a negative context. Yes.

A (27:50)

Oh, God. Xanthi for Prime Minister. Thank you so much.

B (27:53)

I would Love that. I would love to go into politics. I am all full of opinions.

A (27:59)

I mean, I would love it. I would love for you to do that. But I always think, oh, God, God, what a. What a lifestyle. Anyway, you've just got married. You don't want that. You'll never see your lovely husband.

B (28:07)

Yeah, that's true. That's probably true. I should stick to what I'm doing. Stick to educating the next generation of criminals. Because I do wonder if I'm doing that some days.

A (28:15)

I was going to say, you mean criminologists. Oh, no, I see. I hear what you're saying.

B (28:18)

Yeah. No, some days, you know, especially when I was teaching forensic science, I was actually thinking, am I just teaching people how to get away with crime at this point?

A (28:27)

Did you think that after Brian Kohberger in the States, the man who killed the four students from.

B (28:32)

Oh, yeah. Criminology student, PhD student. Yes. Yeah. But he didn't get away with it. So there's the caution.

A (28:39)

Yeah, he really, really cocked it up, if I may say so. It was very slow.

B (28:43)

Yeah. Because, you know, getting away with the crime is super hard, though, because no matter how much you may know, whoever you know may know, then they're up against not only all the detectives who also know a lot, but also all of the experts they can bring in at their disposal. So you've got to be able to outmaneuver everybody.

A (29:00)

Not as easy as you think, guys.

B (29:02)

No. And kids don't commit crimes, don't commit firebombings. Like, it's not worth it.

A (29:07)

Imagine if you killed somebody. Imagine, you know, you're a 12, 13 year old kid, you've been offered 200.

B (29:14)

Horrendous. I know. Horrendous.

A (29:15)

And so easily can happen in this

B (29:18)

scenario because these hospitality venues are well populated. They're in, you know, busy areas. Somebody's gonna die soon.

A (29:26)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (29:27)

And the police absolutely know that. And they're doing everything they can to kind of try and get a handle on this. But we've seen it before. It's very difficult with these online organized networks who are anonymous and organizing it. Yeah, it's really hard. The police are up against it. So, yeah, we have to take away that reward system. And I think the online platforms have got a huge part to play in this.

A (29:53)

If you need support after listening to this podcast, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or contact 1-800-Respect on 1-800-737-732 or 1-800-Respect. Org au Indigenous Australians can contact 13 Yarn on 139276 or 13 yarn.org au. The producers of this podcast recognize the

B (30:27)

traditional owners of the land on which it's recorded. They pay respect to the Aboriginal elders past, present and those emerging.