Join the Kleptocracy

Summary

Autocracy in America: Episode Summary – "Join the Kleptocracy"

Release Date: September 27, 2024
Host/Author: The Atlantic
Guests: John Bolton, Leopoldo Lopez, Sergio Popovich, Darya Kalinyuk, Casey Mitchell, Sheldon Whitehouse

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Introduction: The Rise of Kleptocracy in America

In the "Join the Kleptocracy" episode of Autocracy in America, hosts Peter Pomerantsev and Anne Applebaum delve into the alarming trend of authoritarian and kleptocratic influences infiltrating the United States. This episode explores how traditional democratic institutions are being undermined by secretive financial networks and corrupt practices, drawing parallels with global autocratic regimes.

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Historical Context: Alliances Strengthening Domestic Democracy

Anne Applebaum begins by highlighting the historical role of alliances in reinforcing American democracy. She notes, “NATO was created to be a deterrent, to prevent wars... It worked because most members shared the same values” (02:28). These alliances not only ensured collective defense but also reinforced democratic values domestically by fostering strong economic, cultural, and political ties with like-minded nations.

Peter Pomerantsev adds, “Historically, it is kind of true... Britain has had a big influence in America” (04:24). He underscores how international relationships have historically bolstered American democratic ideals and identity.

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Transition to Kleptocracy: Modern Autocratic Networks

The conversation shifts to the emergence of a global network of kleptocracies—countries unified not by ideology but by mutual interests in corruption and wealth extraction. Applebaum explains, “They are united in their need to undermine the rule of law and repress their own people as a result of wanting to steal more money” (06:31).

John Bolton, former National Security Advisor, illustrates the perilous moment when President Trump nearly withdrew the U.S. from NATO: “Right up until the moment when Trump spoke... we didn't know what he was going to do” (02:35). This moment epitomizes the destabilizing potential of American flirtation with autocratic tactics.

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Case Study: Venezuela’s Descent into Autocracy

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Venezuela’s transformation under Hugo Chávez and Nicolás Maduro. Former mayor Leopoldo Lopez recounts how Chávez’s shift toward autocracy entangled Venezuela with global kleptocratic allies: “The Chinese ... lock in investments ... take ownership of critical infrastructure” (08:43). Applebaum adds, “Venezuela was once one of the most successful democracies... but it aligned itself with Autocracy Inc.”

Lopez highlights the extensive financial ties with Russia, China, and Iran, which facilitated Maduro’s retention of power despite widespread opposition: “I truly believe that the main reason why Maduro is still in power is because of the support he gets from Russia, from China, from Iran, from Cuba” (11:18).

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Parallels in U.S. Politics: Dark Money and Real Estate Corruption

Applebaum draws parallels between Venezuela’s corruption and current U.S. issues, particularly in real estate and political financing. She points out, “American real estate... became a magnet for foreign wealth” (16:37), illustrating how anonymous investments obscure the true ownership and perpetuate corruption.

Casey Mitchell, author of American Kleptocracy, warns, “Donald Trump as president would task his administration with rolling back... transparency requirements” (17:30). He foresees a trajectory similar to Russia’s, where a secretive elite controls financial resources, undermining democratic institutions.

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Impact of Super PACs and the Citizens United Decision

Senator Sheldon Whitehouse discusses the detrimental effects of Super PACs on American democracy. He states, “The super PAC can hide who you are giving money... you can dump unlimited amounts of money into politics” (19:20). Applebaum notes the explosive growth of secretive funding, with dark money groups spending over $21 million, compared to $6 million in 2012 (19:18).

Whitehouse emphasizes, “If American citizens aren't allowed to understand who's who... you have disabled perhaps the most fundamental foundation of democracy” (18:55). This opacity shifts power toward special interests, eroding public trust and diminishing voter agency.

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Expert Insights: Sergio Popovich and the Corporate Nature of Modern Autocracies

Sergio Popovich, an activist and scholar, explains the evolution of dictatorships into corporate-like entities: “Modern autocracies... look like corporations... tools of maintaining the corporation, like military, media” (12:02). This transformation facilitates the seamless integration of corruption and control, making modern autocracies more resilient and covert.

Peter Pomerantsev shares a personal anecdote from Moscow, illustrating the pervasive nature of money laundering: “the whole city was basically one big money laundering exercise” (13:14). Applebaum elaborates on the complexity and secrecy designed to obscure these financial crimes from public scrutiny (14:32).

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Ukraine’s Struggle and the Stakes for American Democracy

Darya Kalinyuk of Ukraine's Anti-Corruption Action Center discusses Ukraine’s fight against kleptocracy and Russian aggression: “We want freedom, dignity... trust in our institutions” (25:04). Pomerantsev connects Ukraine’s battle to the broader implications for American democracy: “If America loses that battle inside, then Ukraine and perhaps other vulnerable democracies would likely lose their battles as well” (28:22).

Kalinyuk warns of the dire consequences should the U.S. abandon its support for democratic allies, stating, “If there is alliance between America and Russia, between America and China, there will be end of democracy in America” (27:33).

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Conclusion: The Interlinked Fate of Democracies

The episode concludes by reinforcing the interconnectedness of global democracies and the risks posed by internal corruption and kleptocratic influences. Applebaum expresses a chilling vision: “My nightmare is that fascism comes to America, but it's marching under the banner of freedom” (30:00). Pomerantsev echoes this concern, emphasizing that corruption and secretive networks degrade the very foundations of democracy, making it vulnerable to authoritarian takeover.

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Key Takeaways

• Kleptocracy Defined: A system where the state is controlled by a corrupt elite, prioritizing personal wealth over public good.

• Impact of Dark Money: Secretive financial flows undermine transparency, erode public trust, and skew political influence toward wealthy special interests.

• Historical Parallels: The decline of democracies like Venezuela serves as a cautionary tale for the United States.

• Global Implications: U.S. engagement with autocratic regimes like Russia and China poses threats not only internationally but also to domestic democratic structures.

• Urgent Call for Transparency: Strengthening democratic institutions and enforcing transparency in political financing are critical to resisting the encroachment of kleptocratic influences.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John Bolton: “Right up until the moment when Trump spoke... we didn't know what he was going to do.” (02:35)

• Leopoldo Lopez: “I truly believe that the main reason why Maduro is still in power is because of the support he gets from Russia, from China, from Iran, from Cuba.” (11:18)

• Sheldon Whitehouse: “If American citizens aren't allowed to understand who's who on the political playing field... you have disabled perhaps the most fundamental foundation of democracy.” (18:55)

• Anne Applebaum: “My nightmare is that fascism comes to America, but it's marching under the banner of freedom.” (30:00)

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Conclusion

"Join the Kleptocracy" serves as a compelling examination of how kleptocratic practices are seeping into American democracy, threatening its integrity and global standing. By drawing parallels with international examples and highlighting the internal vulnerabilities exacerbated by secretive financial networks, the episode underscores the urgent need for transparency and accountability to preserve democratic values both domestically and worldwide.

Transcript

[Peter Pomerantsev]

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[Anne Applebaum]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Peter Pomerantsev]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Anne Applebaum]

Of $45 for a three month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required new customer offer for first three months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy. Taxes and fees extra.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[John Bolton]

It started as we were going out to the NATO headquarters for the summit. He had spent the night before in the ambassador's residence, as presidents often do. I was coming over from the delegation where we had stayed, and he called me on the car phone and said, you ready to make history today?

[Anne Applebaum]

This is John Bolton, the former national Security Advisor for President Donald Trump.

[John Bolton]

And I said, pardon me, or something like that. And he said, I think we need to get out. So I said, let's talk about it as soon as I get there. And shortly thereafter, Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State, came by. It was very clear what Trump wanted to do. And we all rode out to the NATO headquarters. I called Jim Mattis, the Defense secretary. I called John Kelly, the Chief of Staff. I said, it's all hands on deck.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

And even the idea that America might leave NATO, and of itself, pretty destabilizing for global security, right?

[Anne Applebaum]

NATO was created to be a deterrent, to prevent wars, to stop a Soviet invasion of Europe in the past, a Russian invasion now. And it was built around a promise of collective defense, that if one of the allies is attacked, the others will come to their aid. But over the past 75 years, it also came to represent something else. The alliance helped cement the deep economic, cultural and political ties between the United States and Canada and Europe. And it worked mostly because most of the members shared the same values. But as Secretary Bolton told me, the most successful alliance in history almost didn't make it through the first Trump administration.

[John Bolton]

Right up until the moment when Trump spoke at that huge table in the NATO headquarters, we didn't know what he was going to do. And I think he was within an inch of withdrawing. I believe that, and I believe that's still what he wants to do.

[Anne Applebaum]

Trump's threat implied that he would not honor the promise of collective defense. It also created discomfort because everyone understood that it reflected something deeper, the emergence of a different kind of America, an America that could turn away from its democratic partners and instead draw closer to the autocracies, a completely different vision of America's role in the world.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Well, even though it was new to the U.S. it's a move straight out of the autocratic handbook.

[Anne Applebaum]

ANN I'm Ann Applebaum, a staff writer at the Atlantic.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

I'm Peter Pomerantsev, a senior fellow at the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University.

[Anne Applebaum]

This is autocracy in America.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

This isn't a show about America's future. There are authoritarian tactics already at work, and we're showing you where. There's the rise of conspiracy theories, widening public apathy, politicized investigations, the takeover of.

[Anne Applebaum]

The state, and in this episode, America joining the kleptocracy club. PETER I've always thought of the United States as a country that leads an alliance of like minded democracies, and I never questioned our promise to defend them in Europe as well as Asia. We have military bases in Germany, Italy, Japan, more recently in Poland for exactly that purpose. But lately I started thinking about how our alliances and our friendships around the world and our promises to help defend people also help strengthen our democracy here at home.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Historically, it is kind of true. Britain is one of America's oldest allies, and one of the countries America has this long, supposedly special relationship with. Britain has had a big influence in America. The British abolished slavery before America did, for example, and a lot of British abolitionists inspired the Russians of American abolitionism. Frederick Douglass spent time in Britain, as did many other abolitionists, and American and British campaigners against slavery supported one another. I think that mattered.

[Anne Applebaum]

Yeah. We also forget how, even more recently, American thinking has been affected by our awareness of our international role and reputation. Consider what the Justice Department was saying at the supreme court during the 1954 Brown vs Board of Education case. They filed a brief arguing that desegregation was in the US interest, not simply for domestic reasons and not simply because it was right, but also because racist laws prompted, and I quote, doubts even among friendly nations as to the intensity of our devotion to the democratic faith.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

That's quite a phrase, our devotion to the democratic faith.

[Anne Applebaum]

That's what I mean by the influence of our allies. America put democracy at the center of its foreign policy. But it was also part of our national identity. This is who we were. This is who we want to be. This is how we want to be seen. These are the countries that we have the closest relationships with, other democracies, other republics, they can be constitutional monarchies, they can have parliaments instead of congresses. But these are our friends, and this is our world. And I think Americans felt it was important to remain in that group, and that had consequences for domestic policy as well.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

But just as there is a network of countries who push each other towards ever more democracy, and there's also a network of autocratic countries whose leaders are kleptocrats, essentially, they're governments who share the same interest in stealing and hiding money.

[Anne Applebaum]

And oppressing or arresting anybody who tries to stop them. Right.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

I mean, they aren't connected to one another by ideology. They're not all, I don't know, theocracies or communist regimes, but they are united in their need to undermine the rule of law and repress their own people as a result of wanting to steal more money.

[Anne Applebaum]

Absolutely. And countries have moved from one camp to the other in the past. Look at Venezuela.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

Chavez created close relation with Putin.

[Anne Applebaum]

Leopoldo Lopez is a former mayor of Chacao, a municipality of Caracas. He saw things begin to change there in 2006.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

It started when Chavez decided to change the assault rifle of the Armed forces of Venezuela from a Belgium FAL rifle to an AK103 and changing the F16s to the Sukhois.

[Anne Applebaum]

Venezuela was once one of the most successful democracies in our hemisphere. It was the richest country in South America and on a trajectory to become even richer. But when Hugo Chavez was elected leader, democratically elected, he went on to slowly dismantle Venezuelan courts, to break up the media, and eventually to undermine the economy. And Venezuela aligned itself with the group that I like to call Autocracy Inc. Or Autocracy Incorporated.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

The level of investment that went from Venezuela to buy Russian equipment was huge. Billions of dollars have been reported in the arms.

[Anne Applebaum]

And they were buying Russian arms because the Americans wouldn't sell them arms or other things.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

Well, it started because of that, but then it just became more comfortable. And then Chavez invested billions of dollars in the air defense.

[Anne Applebaum]

Lopez not only witnessed the decline of Venezuela, the end of Venezuelan democracy, but as a longtime prominent leader of the Venezuelan opposition, he experienced it as a political prisoner in solitary confinement, as a leader behind bars. He now lives in exile, where he writes and speaks about the rise of the modern autocratic kleptocratic network and also about how Venezuela became part of it. He told me that Russia wasn't the only country that Chavez made deals with.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

The Chinese came in with investments and this is the practice of China in Africa. It's very well known what they do in terms of locking in investments that then they basically take ownership of critical infrastructure. And that happened in Venezuela.

[Anne Applebaum]

Peter Lopez is talking about billions of dollars pouring into Venezuela. But although it was described as a Chinese investment in the country, it didn't ever really translate into improving the well being of the Venezuel Venezuelan people.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

Just to give you an example, one of the flagship projects of this relation between China and Venezuela was a train system.

[Anne Applebaum]

Yes, that train system which was only partially built and even now 15 years later, reportedly less than 1% operational.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

But billions of dollars were channeled into this. Then billions of dollars went into programs for housing of Venezuelan people. And that's nowhere to be seen.

[Anne Applebaum]

It all just vanished.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

It all just vanished. The Chinese don't ask questions. Basically it's about using these investment engagements to create tighter relations and to lock in governments. So that's Russia, that's China, and then there's Iran, Peter.

[Anne Applebaum]

Iran came for business agreements, for economic exchanges, even some involving nuclear energy. And Iran wasn't just funding Venezuela. The Venezuelans also began helping the Iranians.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

They were giving Venezuelan passports to Iranian nationals, to people that ended up being members of Hezbollah.

[Anne Applebaum]

If America continues down a similar path away from democracy and towards something different, what does that mean for countries like Venezuela?

[Leopoldo Lopez]

Well, that would mean, I wouldn't say the end, but that would mean that the possibilities to transition for democracy in Venezuela would be greatly affected. Without a doubt.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Thousands protesting Venezuela's contested election.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

The demand for freedom and democracy playing.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Out in cities throughout Venezuela as well. Condemning leader Nicolas Maduro who insists he.

[Casey Mitchell]

Won re election over opposition candidate Edmundo Gonzalez Urutia.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

People hate Maduro.

[Anne Applebaum]

Venezuelans voted in huge numbers against Maduro in July's elections despite his enormous campaign of propaganda and harassment. When Lopez and I talked, I had asked him how Maduro managed to stay in power for so long.

[Leopoldo Lopez]

Even though there are many ways to answer this question, I truly believe that the main reason why Maduro is still in power is because of the support he gets from Russia, from China, from Iran, from Cuba. So the struggle for a transition to democracy in Venezuela, as much as we would like it to be a sovereign issue, it's not true because we are fighting a global fight. We are fighting really against Maduro, but also against Putin, against Xi Jinping against the mullahs from Iran because they are the lifeline of Maduro.

[Sergio Popovich]

We figured out that outer sectarianism dictatorships are very different animals than they were 20, 30 years ago.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

And you know Sergio Popovich, he's an activist. He helped overthrow Serbia's dictator, Slobodan Milosevic in 2000. Hearing you speak with Leopoldo Lopez and his description of the changes in Venezuela over the last 20 years made me think of the work Popovich has been doing. He studies how dictators function in the Middle East, Latin America and Asia. And Anne Popovich's research supports the thesis of your new book, Autocracy Inc. And how you've described this club of autocratic.

[Sergio Popovich]

Leaders studying the field, working with people from authoritarian countries 20, 30 years ago, they would always require some kind of ideological component. Whether you're talking about the Soviet Union, whether you're talking about the Nazi Germany. It's a different ideologies in the core of it. Modern autocracies, take Russia, for example, they look like corporations. You have the boss of the corporation, and then you have in Russia, case Tyco, that own all the companies. And then you have tools of maintaining the corporation, like military, media. These are all the tools. Basically, part of being incorporated means that you are cooperating with other parts and legs in the corporation.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

So what Popovich describes here, Ann, is an authoritarian network that functions as a corrupt corporation, basically. It's funny, I saw this for myself when I was living in Moscow. It was in the mid 2000s. I remember walking down the high street down to Askaya, and it was full of these glitzy shops everywhere, and everybody was dressed in a very glamorous way. And the city was full of bankers and lawyers, like the financial district of many Western capitals. And every couple of meters there was a bank. And I was like, what on earth are all these banks doing? I remember going into one and trying to open like a personal checking account. And they just stared at me like an absolute moron, like, why would you open a bank account, a personal account in this bank? So I started asking people that I knew, Russians, what are all these banks doing? And they just started laughing, going, well, they're not banks the way you understand banks. They're money laundering vehicles. They're vehicles tied to this minister or that businessman. And they open loads of these banks or pseudo banks and move their money through them and then move them abroad. But they were every everywhere. This wasn't like one little money laundering exercise. You know, the whole city was basically one big money laundering exercise. And I remember thinking, I don't understand the model of this regime very well at all.

[Anne Applebaum]

And you didn't understand it for a reason. You didn't understand it because it was deliberately made. Incredibly complicated. Ordinary citizens, ordinary people aren't meant to know where the money is or what the bank does. They're not meant to have any influence or understanding or knowledge of politics at all. Because the essence of modern autocracy and modern dictatorships is secrecy. They have ways of stealing and extracting money. They hide the money in different places around the world. It's done through anonymous companies, it's done through shell companies that are able to move money very quickly from one jurisdiction to another. So from Cyprus to the Virgin Islands to the Bahamas to Delaware and back again in a blink of an eye, it's very, very difficult to trace this money. It's very hard for civil servants or police officers or white collar crime investigators to find it. It's very, very hard for journalists to find it and understand it. And you aren't meant to know and you're meant to be confused by it.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Up until now, and we've been talking about how these things work in other places, but it's here in the US too.

[Anne Applebaum]

Yes, dark money, hidden wealth, untransparent purchases, anonymous companies. These aren't just things that exist abroad on palm fringed Caribbean islands or in some distant dictatorship. More on that after the break.

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[Anne Applebaum]

Peter, when you were talking about the empty banks that weren't really banks, I immediately thought American real estate. Until recently, Realtors here were not required to closely examine the source of the funds being used to buy property. And it was perfectly legal for anonymous companies to acquire real estate, providing no information about the owners at all. And that's why the sector became a magnet for foreign wealth.

[Casey Mitchell]

There has never been a figure in American political history quite like Trump that opened up himself, his administration, his businesses to so much foreign access, so much foreign lobbying, so much foreign Wealth. We've really just scratched the surface. Much of that is because Trump rose from one of the key industries in modern kleptocracy, the real estate, especially the luxury real estate sector.

[Anne Applebaum]

Casey Mitchell is the author of American Kleptocracy.

[Casey Mitchell]

I have no doubt in my mind that Donald Trump as president would task his administration with rolling back all of the progress we have seen in the last few years, not only in terms of the transparency requirements for shell companies that we've finally seen imposed. I have no doubt that he would say, do not enforce this legislation whatsoever. But that's just one element. If he is back in the White House and aligns himself more fully with Russia, what we're going to end up seeing is the trajectory that Russia has undergone maybe 20, 25, 30 years ago, or perhaps what countries like hungary have undergone 10, 15 years ago.

[Anne Applebaum]

Peter that's how modern autocracies begin. Not with a coup d', etat, but by the slow emergence of a secretive elite who are able to control financial resources and who can then hide their wealth, take it out of the country, do what they want with it without anybody else knowing.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

They're not limited by the same forces that you and I are.

[Anne Applebaum]

Yeah, a lot of journalists have tried to come up with names for it. You know, Moneyland or Kleptopia. You know, this alternate world in which the normal rules that apply to the economy that you and I live in don't apply to them.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

I think we underestimate how much that degrades democracy.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Secrecy and democracy are antithetical.

[Anne Applebaum]

Sheldon Whitehouse is a Democratic senator from Rhode island and a senior member of the Senate Finance Committee.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

If American citizens aren't allowed to understand who's who on the political playing field, who's playing for what team, who they really are, who they're representing, you have disabled perhaps the most fundamental foundation of democracy.

[Anne Applebaum]

Let's get right to the issue of.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Super PACs and the direct result of.

[Anne Applebaum]

The Citizens United case in 2010.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

I first ran for the Senate back in 2006, and I got elected, sworn in in 2007. There were no such things as super PACs then. They didn't exist. This is a new beast that is stalking America's political landscape. And it has no reason for being except that you can use the super PAC to hide who you are giving money. The super PAC only has to report the last screen through which the money came, not the actual donor. And you can dump unlimited amounts of money into politics through it.

[Anne Applebaum]

Groups that derive their funds from secret Sources have spent more than $21 million so far, compared with just 6 million at this point in 2012. By all accounts, the 2020 election will be the most expensive in history. It's part of a trend that sees each election more costly than the last.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

The 2024 campaign was already shaping up to be the most expensive election of all time. But now several high profile billionaires are dumping massive amounts of money into the presidential race.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

It shifts power to those big special interests and away from ordinary voters. It shifts the attention of Congress away from ordinary voters and to those big special interests who can deliver that kind of money secretly.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

When you live in this world where you don't know which money, which powerful figures are behind which political decisions that are being made around you and influence you, when it's all wrapped up in this sort of mist, then you feel kind of helpless. You feel you have no agency, you feel you don't matter. You feel as if you have no say.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

Knowing who's speaking to you is a pretty important proposition in a democracy.

[Anne Applebaum]

And it's a problem that's only getting worse.

[Sheldon Whitehouse]

There's a whole infrastructure that creates this political secrecy right now. So there is a huge transformation that has taken place that is represented by entirely new bestiary of corporate entities designed to corrupt American elections. That is new and that is awful and we should not get used to it.

[Anne Applebaum]

And Peter, it probably shouldn't be surprising that what is in effect a new political system has also given rise to a new kind of politician.

[John Bolton]

I think he has trouble distinguishing between the country's national interest and his own personal interest. He sees them as fundamentally the same thing.

[Anne Applebaum]

That's John Bolton again talking about his old boss, Donald Trump.

[John Bolton]

So if he could have, for example, with Xi Jinping, if he could have good personal relations by giving away something that offended Xi but had been decided because it was thought to be in our interest, he would do it. So in one conversation, a phone conversation with Xi Jinping, and I listened in to all those, that's one of the national security advisors jobs is to be. In all those conversations, Xi complained about sanctions that Wilbur Ross, the Secretary of Commerce, had imposed on Chinese television, telecommunications, and I might say for very good and sufficient reason. And so in the course of the conversation, Trump said, I'm going to lift the sanctions. And he tweeted about it the next day, saying it would help maintain Chinese jobs, as if that's the job of the American President.

[Anne Applebaum]

Trump has been a sympathetic ear for complaints like these. He seemed keen to be friends, for example, with the dictator of North Korea, Kim Jong Un. Kim Jong Un, as we know, regularly holds military exercises designed to intimidate South Korea. The US Leads joint exercises with South Korea to communicate power and military readiness back at North Korea. But when Kim Jong Un allegedly expressed frustration over those exercises, Trump said, you know, you're right.

[John Bolton]

And besides, they're expensive. I'm going to cancel them. Just set it right there. None of us knew he was going to say. Jim Mattis, the Defense Secretary, called me after he heard about this on the radio back in Washington and said, what did you do? Why didn't you tell me? I said, jim, I would have been happy to tell you if I had known what he was going to do.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

And the thing is, when governments start to act like these self interested corporations, it doesn't just make these governments less efficient and less positive for the people. It also leads to a fundamentally different type of government. I mean, think about it. Once you have people running the country who use it to enrich themselves, then they don't want to let go of that resource ever again. And they find ways to make sure they essentially never leave power. They rig elections, they curtail rights of anyone who wants to challenge them. They want to repress people who ask too many questions about where their money comes from. And then they institute a system of surveillance and control to make sure that repression succeeds.

[Darya Kalinyuk]

So kleptocracy is when the state is being owned by a small group of people, like in Russia, there is kleptocracy, which actually turned into the complete totalitarianism.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Darya Kalinyuk is the executive director of Ukraine's Anti Corruption Action Center.

[Darya Kalinyuk]

And the same small amount of people are in the country. Political control of the state, that is extremely dangerous. That means that kleptocracy is actually the bridge between democracy, authoritarianism towards the totalitarianism. And this is what has happened in Russia.

[Anne Applebaum]

Peter, what Kalinyuk is describing in Russia, it sounds like exactly the same thing that Ukrainians were fighting against in their own country over the last decade.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Exactly. At that time, Ukraine was also starting to head in the direction of kleptocracy.

[Darya Kalinyuk]

And this is what has happened in 2013. Eleven years ago, there was a revolution of dignity in Ukraine where Ukrainians were pissed off our president controlling all the natural resources, controlling all law enforcement, all the judiciary. And we were pissed off him being supported by Russia.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

And as you know, the revolution became deadly. About 100 people died, some of them from corrupt Russian allied police who opened fire on protesters. But the Revolution of dignity succeeded.

[Darya Kalinyuk]

We want to have freedom, we want to have dignity. We want to have trust in our institutions. We want to be able to go to the court and protect our rights. We want to have justice.

[Anne Applebaum]

So for Cal New, fighting for democracy and fighting against corruption was the same.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Thing for her and for many in Ukraine.

[Darya Kalinyuk]

Absolutely. And it is still is. It's still the case.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

So Anne, fast forward to the start of the war in revenge and in its desire to take away Ukraine's freedom and impose a corrupt puppet government controlled by Moscow. Russia invaded first in 2014 and then at an even grander scale in February, February 2022. I'm not sure Ukraine would have been able to survive these invasions without America's help. And so this is the central question and one I ask Kalaniuk, what happens if America decides it no longer cares about fighting corrupt authoritarian regimes?

[Darya Kalinyuk]

I want to believe that America has strong institutions and American democracy will survive any shake ups. But if it was just up to American people, that would be very easy. However, if America is exposed to all these external influences of authoritarian systems and dirty money, that is much harder because sometimes you don't understand actually who is doing some operations on your ground, who is manipulating you.

[Anne Applebaum]

And.

[Darya Kalinyuk]

That is a very dangerous situation.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

What would it mean to you if America switched sides? What if America was part of an alliance of kleptocracies?

[Darya Kalinyuk]

Well, if there is alliance between America and Russia, between America and China, there will be end of democracy in America. It's as simple as that.

[Anne Applebaum]

Peter. Ukraine's two decades long flirtation with grand scale corruption left it really vulnerable. Many of the country's elite businessmen were interested in themselves and their profits and not the country. And that opened the door both for the hollowing out of the institutions of government and of the state, but also the weakening of the military and the security apparatus. And that was what made Ukraine so vulnerable to Russian invasion.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

But as you know, Ukraine is fighting heroically against this invasion. And I sort of feel that Ukraine is fighting and dying for ideals that Americans seem ready in some way to walk away from. There's two interlinked stories here. There's Ukraine's battle for freedom, for democracy, and against strategic corruption. And you have America, which for the moment is still supporting Ukraine in this cause, but is also fighting the temptation to become more corrupt and less democratic. And if America loses that battle inside, then Ukraine and perhaps other vulnerable democracies would likely lose their battles as well.

[Anne Applebaum]

Autocracy in America is hosted by Peter Pomerentsev and me, Anne Applebaum. It's produced by Natalie Brennan and Jocelyn Frank, edited by Dave Shaw, mixed by Rob Smirciak Fact Checked by Yvonne Kim Claudina Baid is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Autocracy in America is a podcast from the Atlantic. It's made possible with support from the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University, an academic and public forum dedicated to strengthening global democracy through powerful civic engagement and informed, inclusive dialogue.

[Anne Applebaum]

PETER the things the Ukrainians have done to fight back to preserve their freedom. They're evidence of the work it takes to build a democracy and to keep it.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

But in America, freedom is actually a double edged sword.

[Anne Applebaum]

My nightmare is that fascism comes to America, but it's marching under the banner of freedom.

[Peter Pomerantsev]

Next time on Autocracy in How Freedom Can Be the Enemy of Democracy.

[Anne Applebaum]

We'll be back with more on that next week.