Podcast Summary: Autocracy in America — Episode: “The Admiral”
Podcast: Autocracy in America
Host: Garry Kasparov (The Atlantic)
Guest: Admiral William McRaven
Date: September 26, 2025
Overview
In this deeply insightful episode, Garry Kasparov sits down with Admiral William McRaven, former commander who oversaw the SEAL Team 6 raid that killed Osama bin Laden and a vocal advocate for the apolitical tradition of the U.S. military. The conversation grapples with America’s fading image as the world’s “good guy,” the creeping concern over authoritarian tendencies at home, the importance of alliances, and the military’s precarious role in safeguarding democracy amidst rising partisanship and institutional distrust. The episode oscillates between optimism for the American people and sobering warnings about the nation’s democratic vulnerabilities.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. “We Are the Good Guys”—America’s Role and Image in the World
- Kasparov introduces the episode with personal anecdotes of admiration for the U.S. as the “good guy”—a beacon of democracy and hope for billions.
- [03:30] McRaven responds:
- America has historically been viewed as a force for good, citing the Marshall Plan and disaster relief efforts.
- (Quote: “Every time that there is a natural disaster, the first people on the scene are invariably the Americans.” — McRaven, 03:35)
- McRaven references (apocryphally) Tocqueville: “America is great because it is good, but if America ever stops being good, it will stop being great.”
- He underscores that preserving this image is crucial for America’s global influence.
2. Can America Recover Its Standing?
- [06:16] Kasparov asks if democratic allies still see the U.S. as “good guys” amid recent policy shifts.
- [07:20] McRaven:
- Remains optimistic about American resilience, but notes growing concerns:
- At the Munich Security Conference, the U.S. was described as becoming "transactional"—acting mainly in its narrow self-interest.
- (Quote: “America has become transactional.” — McRaven, 07:42)
- Argues U.S. interests are tied to upholding alliances and values, not just material gain.
- Remains optimistic about American resilience, but notes growing concerns:
3. Declining Alliances and Foreign Policy Drift
- [09:56] Prompted by Kasparov, McRaven agrees that U.S. foreign policy has been inconsistently wavering since the Cold War.
- Emphasizes the indispensability of alliances:
- (Quote: “The only thing worse than fighting with allies is fighting without them.” — McRaven, paraphrasing Churchill, 10:28)
- Publicly antagonizing allies makes cooperation and strategic progress difficult.
- Calls for candid, private dialogue with allies and public unity.
- Emphasizes the indispensability of alliances:
4. The Military’s Proper Role in a Democracy
- [11:54] McRaven:
- The military must remain apolitical, loyal to the Constitution—not to a party or even the president personally.
- Officers and enlisted take oaths to uphold the Constitution.
- (Quote: “You have an obligation...to follow that order, or you can resign.” — McRaven, 12:10)
- Lawful vs. unlawful orders:
- Unlawful (e.g., targeting civilians) must be refused.
- The military must remain apolitical, loyal to the Constitution—not to a party or even the president personally.
- [13:41] Kasparov asks about the “grey zone” between legal/political loyalty and upholding democracy.
- [14:25] McRaven:
- In nearly four decades, rarely heard “politics” discussed within the military.
- American military leaders are encouraged to express concerns or disagreement but must remain nonpartisan.
- (Quote: “You want a military that will push back on orders and on positions...if we ever get to the point where all we do is follow orders, well, then you know where that leads, Gary.” — McRaven, 16:12)
5. Civic Complacency and Elite Responsibility
- [17:18] McRaven:
- Most Americans are absorbed in everyday life, not high-level constitutional crises.
- Staying engaged and informing the public about the state of the nation remains critical.
- (Quote: “99% of the people in America are more worried about daycare and getting their kids to school and whether or not they’re going to be able to pay their bills...” — McRaven, 17:21)
6. Risks of Authoritarian Drift, Military in Domestic Affairs
- [19:27] Kasparov raises scenarios of military misuse to challenge or subvert elections.
- [20:07] McRaven responds:
- Warns of always being vigilant, but reassures faith in both military leadership and the American public’s “red lines.”
- The military owes its duty to the Constitution, not to any president.
- Deployment of federal troops usually requires state governor consent.
- (Quote: “If there is a violation of the Constitution under that oath, we have an obligation not to follow those orders.” — McRaven, 21:20)
- Warns of always being vigilant, but reassures faith in both military leadership and the American public’s “red lines.”
7. The “Red Line” Dilemma
- [21:48] Kasparov presses for clarity: what counts as violating the Constitution?
- [22:25] McRaven:
- Often, leaders “know” when an order isn’t right, even before legal counsel.
- “We’ve been taught how to behave. We understand... what we should and shouldn’t do.” — McRaven, 22:31
- Affirms the importance of legal advisors and the responsibility to reject clear violations of law or conscience.
- Admits concern about authoritarian moves, but notes ultimate responsibility falls to citizens and legislators.
- Often, leaders “know” when an order isn’t right, even before legal counsel.
8. Democracy, Mandates, and Fear
- [25:09] Kasparov:
- Raises the worrying normalization of election denial and use of force.
- [26:45] McRaven:
- Avoids hypotheticals about possible abuses but criticizes the transactional and vindictive style of the current (Trump) administration:
- Laments the lack of results and the climate of fear:
- (Quote: “They seem to be incredibly weak kneed. And the fear, and there is a climate of fear...that is of great concern to me, this sense that, yes, you have to be a Trump loyalist or you will pay the price. This is not a good way to run a country.” — McRaven, 28:06)
- Laments the lack of results and the climate of fear:
- Reiterates: The remedy is democratic participation:
- Vote, be civil, protest peacefully, use your civic voice.
- Avoids hypotheticals about possible abuses but criticizes the transactional and vindictive style of the current (Trump) administration:
9. Crisis of Confidence and the Search for Unifying Leadership
- [30:47] Kasparov:
- Observes military is now the only institution Americans widely trust.
- Wonders if a military figure could help “unify” a fractured country.
- [31:39] McRaven:
- It’s about principle-driven, unifying leadership—not military status.
- Americans seek decency, honesty, opportunity, respect, and community safety.
- The president’s job: serve the entire nation, not just “the base.”
- (Quote: “Your job as the President, first and foremost, is to take care of the American people. Not just the American people that like you, but the American people that don’t like you.” — McRaven, 33:11)
10. Would McRaven Run for President?
- [36:00] McRaven:
- Firmly denies any plan to run in 2028, jokes about preserving his marriage.
- Humble about his achievements; not interested in presidential politics.
- (Quote: “If I want to make it to 48 [years married], I probably ought to stay here in Austin.” — McRaven, 36:07)
- Suggests other retired officers may answer a call to public service.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
On American Identity
- “America is great because it is good, but if America ever stops being good, it will stop being great.”
- McRaven, referencing Tocqueville, [04:10]
On the Military’s Obligation:
-
“As long as the president...gives a lawful order, you are obligated by your oath, by the law, to follow that order, or you can resign.”
- McRaven, [12:10]
-
“You want a military that will push back on orders and on positions...If we ever get to the point where all we do is follow orders, well, then you know where that leads, Gary.”
- McRaven, [16:12]
On the Risks of Transactionalism:
- “America has become transactional.”
- McRaven, citing international perception, [07:42]
On Confronting Authoritarian Moves:
- “If there is a violation of the Constitution under that oath, we have an obligation not to follow those orders.”
- McRaven, [21:20]
On Political Courage:
- “You need people that will speak truth to power...The great thing about the American military...is I never had trouble speaking truth to power...”
- McRaven, [28:28]
On Civic Engagement:
- “We are the democracy, we are the people. If you don't like what's happening, vote somebody else in. Be respectful, be civil, be peaceful, but vote somebody else in.”
- McRaven, [30:10]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [03:30]: Why America must be “the good guys”
- [07:20]: The transactional turn in foreign policy and alliance management
- [11:54]: The military’s fundamental apolitical responsibilities
- [14:25]: How, in practice, military leaders handle disagreement and “grey zones”
- [17:18]: The average American’s disconnect from high-level democratic crises
- [21:20]: McRaven’s view on the military’s duty to resist unconstitutional orders
- [28:06]: On the climate of fear and lack of congressional responsibility
- [31:39]: What qualities the next presidential leader should embody
- [36:00]: Will McRaven run for president? His unequivocal answer
Conclusion
The episode underscores both the resilience and the fragility of American democracy. Admiral McRaven’s conviction is clear: the nation’s strength lies in its constitutional values, the ethical backbone of its institutions, and the engagement of its people—rather than in any one party, politician, or even the military itself. As authoritarian playbooks creep closer to home, McRaven’s mix of optimism, humility, and unvarnished warnings speaks directly to the crises facing American identity, leadership, and democracy in an age of growing global uncertainty.