B (4:11)

Okay, you just talk very passionately about your country, your culture, everything that is so dear to you and to millions and millions of your compatriots. So for many in America or Europe still, you know, there's a kind of confusion. Tell them what is Ukraine, Why Ukraine is not Russia. That's a very simple question. Because it is a massive propaganda that is of course being channeled through various media entities directly or indirectly sponsored by Russia. Simply lay down the history of Ukraine and up to this moment, communicating back to people who would like to know the truth, why all these assumptions are false. It's a false narrative because Ukraine is Ukraine. And Ukraine today, as I believe being Russian is defending the front line of, of our civilization.

C (5:02)

Let me tell you my personal story. I was born in Russian speaking family. So my first language was Russian. And I started to study Ukrainian language in the school. And then when I started to learn history, I suddenly understood that I was born not in Russian speaking family. I was born in forcibly Russified speaking family because native language of my father was Ukrainian. My father, he decided to become a doctor. And all education in Soviet Ukraine in schools and universities was only in Russian. Ukrainian language was banned. And even more, if you want to make career, if you want to be treated as normal person, not secondary, you have to speak Russian. And my father, he's not fighter, he. He just want to be normal. He don't want to be secondary. So he switched from Ukrainian to Russian language. And then it's become his daily practice. And this is how this policy of colonization works, that your language, your culture is something secondary. And if you still manifest your identity, you will never make career in such a country. And when I understood it being a child in a school, I decided to switch to Ukrainian because I understood that my native language was stolen from me, that it's a huge historical injustice. So it's really existential fight because we speak about genocide and I'm a lawyer, I know that genocide is a crime of crimes. It's very difficult to prove it. But from the Common sense from the human logic. If you want partially or completely to destroy some concrete national group, to exterminate some nation, there is no necessity for you to do it physically to kill all representatives. You can just forcibly change their identity and entire nation will disappear. And that is what's going on with other nation during Russian empire times and during Soviet empire times. And that is why now the majority people in Belarus speak Russian, their language, their identity also stolen from them. You ask me why we survived after all this pressure during centuries. And I think that it's because of freedom. It's because of our values. Scientists told that freedom is value of self determination, but I think that in our case freedom is is survival value. Because if we will not be so consistent in our fight for freedom and for independence, if our cultural elite weren't so brave to manifest Ukrainian identity, even being persecuted, jailed, killed, we will never survive. So freedom for us, it's not just self determination value. Freedom for us is a value which help us to survive.

B (8:22)

Yeah. Again, I always feel quite uncomfortable by just asking these questions because as a Russian, I also feel that there's a small portion of guilt just for belonging to this imperial mentality. Though I have quite a long history of opposing Putin and his criminal regime. So you were born in the Soviet Union, you went to school just at a time where the Soviet Union was about to collapse and Ukraine independence was proclaimed. So when do you think that is this the split between Ukraine and Russia? This rift became visible and the further tragic events become inevitable. At what point do you think that the gap have become irreconcilable?

C (9:10)

2014, we have a mass protest which was called revolution of dignity. And millions of people stood up their voice and came to streets and they peacefully demonstrated against pro Russian, corrupt authoritarian governments. They just wanted to build a country where the rights of everybody are protected, government is accountable, judiciary is independent, and police do not beat students who are peacefully demonstrating. And this vision of future united people from all parts of the country. And this is very essential. We have different religions, we have different past and personal experience, but all of us want the same future for us and for our children. We want to see our future democratic, peaceful and independent.

B (10:05)

Okay, I think now it's very important that we analyze, with your help, the reasons for this war. What is the core of this war, of this Putin's aggression? What is at stake? Is it territories or. It's much bigger.

C (10:24)

For sure, it's much bigger. We have to look to the roots of this war. This war started not in February 2022. This war started in February 2014 when Ukraine obtained a chance for democratic transition after the collapse of pro Russian authoritarian regime due to revolution of dignity. And in order to stop us on this way, Putin occupied Crimea and assist regions of Ukraine in 2014. Eleven years ago and three years ago, he extended this war to the large scale invasion. Because Putin is not afraid of NATO. Putin is afraid of idea of freedom. And that is why this is not just a war between two states, Russia and Ukraine. This is a war between two systems, authoritarianism and democracy. And that is why China helps Russia to avoid sanctions and Iran provided Russia with rockets and drones. North Korea sent to Russia their soldiers and troops. Because all these regimes, they have something in common. They have the same idea what a human being is. They see people as an object to be controlled. They deny them their rights and freedoms. But let's be honest, Putin organized large scale invasion not because he wants to occupy just more part of Ukrainian land. Putin started this war for something bigger. He want to occupy and destroy the whole country and move further. He see Ukraine as a bridge to Europe. His logic is historical. He dreams about his legacy. He want to be seen in world history as a person who managed to restore Soviet empire. Ukraine is not just a goal. Ukraine is a tool. And empire has a center but has no borders. Empire always tries to expand, to invade another countries, to kill people there, to destroy their identity, to colonize these territories and move further.

B (12:32)

Agreed. But tell us, you have been very effective while tirelessly revealing the crimes of Putin's occupying forces. Do you have sense that people who you are addressing recognize that Vladimir Putin is an existential threat to this global order?

C (12:57)

Frankly speaking, I know that people even don't know that Putin is the biggest child kidnapper in the world. People don't know that. International Criminal Court issued official arrest warrant against President Putin and his child commissioner Maria Lvova Belova for the crime against children. Because they abducted tens of thousands Ukrainian children and forcibly moved them to Russia. So he's literally the biggest child kidnapper in the world. And unfortunately, people don't know even such detail. Let me tell you one story. This is a story of children writer Volodymyr Vakulenko. He wrote beautiful stories for Ukrainian children in Ukrainian language and entire generation of Ukrainian children brought up on his deities book. During Russian occupation of Kharkiv region, he disappeared. I know his family personally. His family hope to the last that he's alive. But like thousands and thousands other Ukrainian civilians are illegally kept in Russian captivity. But when Ukrainian army released Kharkiv region. We found mass graves in the forest. In these mass graves we found dead bodies of civilians, men, women and children. Some dead bodies have hands tied under their backs. Some of dead bodies have a visible sign of horrible tortures. And in the grave, under the number 319, we found dead bodies of this children writer. You can ask me why Russians killed children writer who wrote beautiful story for Ukrainian children in Ukrainian language. But the answer is very simple. Because they could. Because Russian occupation is not just changing one state flag to another. It's not just when Ukrainian children have to go to occupied school and start there every morning with a forcible singing of Russian national esm. Russian occupation. It's enforced disappearances, it's torture, it's rape, denial of your identity, forcible adoption of your own children, filtration camps and mass grace. This is Russian occupation. And I know that some politicians abroad, they have this wishful thinking that the war is so horrible, that okay, occupation is not good, but at least it will stop the war and decrease human suffering. But believe me, I document war crimes in occupied territories for 11 years. Occupation doesn't stop human suffering. Occupation just make human suffering invisible.

B (15:44)

You said again that the war, the real war started 11 years ago in February 2014. And many in the west still don't get it. For instance, the current administration, Donald Trump, they always brag that oh, there was no war when I was in the office referring to his first term. So please, again I apologize by just for pushing. You say it was a war because people got killed. Russia was already absorbing some of Ukrainian territories back in 2016, 17, 18, 19, 20, preparing for mass scale invasion.

C (16:23)

When I interviewed people who survived Russian captivity, they told me that Russians see their future like this. First we'll occupy Ukraine and then together with you we will go to conquer in other countries. And the process of forcible mobilization of Ukrainian citizens to Russian army all these years is still going on in occupied territories. We have in occupied territories 1 million 600 Ukrainian children. Russia introduced the forcible militarization of this 1 million 600 Ukrainian children. For example, their parents forced to give their children to so called sports and re education camps. And in these camps, Ukrainian children learn how to use weapons. They march, they used military uniforms, they line up. And third, Russians installing in the mind of Ukrainian children unquestionable obedience. So they try to convince children that they have no will, that freedom did not exist for them at all. And why I emphasize on this, it's not just problem of Ukraine That Russia is preparing a new generation of Putin soldier from this 1 million 600 Ukrainian children. It's not just human rights violations, is not just international crimes. It's a real global threat to security of people in different countries.

B (18:03)

We'll be right back.

C (18:13)

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A (18:15)

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C (18:36)

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B (18:49)

Now let's move from Europe to the United States. That's the main backer of Ukraine. Undoubtedly America provided some crucial support for Ukraine to survive and just to resist and keep fighting successfully against Russia. Again going back to 2014, just tell us about the view of Ukrainians, of Americans engagement or you may say disengagement at certain periods over these 11 years. Let's start with 2014 with Obama's administration's decision to basically accept it. So what did people think about America and America's role and its gradual change over these 11 years?

C (19:34)

It's a good question because I think that the main political decision is made from the short term perspective. But this decision will have a long.

B (19:44)

Term perspective, long term consequences.

C (19:47)

Exactly. This means that in 2014 the international community failed the Putin test. Civilized world closed their eyes to this. The sanctions were so weak it was ridiculous.

B (20:04)

It was a lip service. We know it was a lip service. This is the no measures were taken to cut independence of Europe from Russian oil and gas.

C (20:12)

Germany continued to build gas pipeline with Russia. They shaking Putin hands. They do business as usual. So they fail the test. And that is why the long term consequences of this political decision in 2014 now is large scale war. There is a good Russian pro web appetize grows during the lunch. So when the west failed test in 2014, Putin decided okay, I can move further. In 2022 when Russia started large scale war, United States and other international partners they said let's help Ukraine not to fail and we start to receive first weapons to be able to defend ourselves. And first of all, sanctions against Russia finally were introduced into force. And we are extremely grateful especially for ordinary people in United States who are their government to help Ukraine because you help us to survive. I can speak now with you only because of your support and thank you for this. But this also an explanation why Ukraine was waiting for more than two years, why we're still waiting for a lot of weapons which need urgently is needed just to stop Russian army. Because there is a huge difference between two narratives. Let's help Ukraine not to fail and let's help Ukraine to win. And this difference has practical meaning. We can measure this difference all these three years in types of weapons, gravity of sanctions and speed of decisions. Now situation is completely changed. President Trump told that he want to stop this Russian war aggression against Ukraine because he care about people who died in this war. And this is a good intent. People in Ukraine want peace much more than anyone else. We just know that peace doesn't come when country which was invaded stop fighting. Because that's not peace, that's occupation. And occupation is just another forms of the war. So this means that if American leadership is scared about people dying in this war, they are also have to care about people dying in Russian prison, in occupied territories. They also have to care about Ukrainian children who were forcibly deported to Russia. They also have to care about people who suffering daily in this gray zone. They have no tools how to defend themselves. We speak about millions, they have to care about this. And I know that people in United States support our struggle for freedom. We are very far from geographical point of view, but we are very close for the value point of view.

B (23:07)

What is in your opinion, why the free world didn't want to see Putin's open preparation for the full scale invasion of Ukraine?

C (23:17)

Because they have another logic. I'm not naive. I don't speak about just human rights logic, I speak about pragmatic logic. They thought that it was irrational for Putin to start large scale war because he will be in isolation. The war resulted in hundreds of thousands of human losses also from Russian side because it decreased the potential of Russian economy. So they think it was irrational to start large scale war because they based their decision on pragmatic basis. But once again, the Putin logic is historical. He don't care about Russian people, he don't care about economy. He care about how his name will be written in the world history. He cares about his legacy.

B (24:09)

Okay, I guess he cares even about his power. But again, agreed. So it's a different logic that they didn't want to admit existed. Next Biden administration. They tried to stop the war, but it failed because again, probably didn't understand that Putin was determined to go in this war and negotiations, as always was treated by Putin as a sign of witness. February, February 24, 2022 Ukraine is under direct assault. And the Biden administration expected Ukraine to collapse, so offered Zelensky to evacuate. They heard in response the historic phrase ch, you know, I don't need a right, I need an ammunition. Ukraine survived defeated Russians in the Battle of Kyiv. Next, Biden administration sticks to a formula. We stand with Ukraine as long as it takes.

C (25:04)

Your reaction plus to this formula? It was another formula which I called non escalation management. The west and United States as well, they have some red lines with the drone for themselves that if they will do this, Putin became angry and it will escalate the situation. And I think it's a very wrong policy because it's Russia who has to be afraid to cross red lines, not the West.

B (25:37)

Now we have Donald Trump back in the office and tell us, did Ukrainian society have high expectations about Donald Trump's return to the office?

C (25:49)

Frankly speaking, yes. I was surprised. But I saw the social survey and people in Ukraine, they provide a much higher level of trust to President Donald Trump than for example people from the countries of European Union. I think it's because President Trump openly articulated that he will stop Putin and Ukrainians expect that he will demonstrate strength to stop Putin.

B (26:16)

But again, so far we don't see Donald Trump acting with the same strengths against Putin or at least with the same vigor, with the same rage as being expressed against many American traditional allies. But there's always hope. Hope and understand that people in Ukraine, they, they can't afford losing hope. But there's a very important knowledge that comes from your tragic experience about the true nature of the war. And the simple question is how does this war end? What are the scenarios? Is it realistic to think about peace deal with Putin or. This war has only two outcomes, destruction of Ukraine or collapse of Putin's regime.

C (27:03)

Let's return to the near past because we have two peace agreements with Russia before large scale war started. We have this Minsk court and eight years of so called ceasefire which Russia violated almost daily and people died almost daily. And it was no negative consequences for Russia for these violations. So people in Ukraine remember this experience and that's why we went sustainable peace. Putin will stop only when he will be stopped. The problem is that the only language which dictator understand, it's the language of strength. They see all other attempt to negotiate as a sign of weakness. They can imitate the peace process, why not to decrease the sanctions and to prepare better, because how they use these eight years of peace agreement with Ukraine, they built a powerful military base in occupied Ukrainian territories. They prepared their army, they trained their army, they retreat, they regroup. They prepared the economy for the possible way of sanctions and they start attack. So this is a logic, but what is important to demonstrate strength, which makes Putin understand that it's impossible for him to achieve his goal to destroy the whole Ukraine and to go further and to attack another countries and forcibly restore Soviet empire. If we will not demonstrate strength, it means that he will just postpone this goal for several months or for another period.

B (28:55)

So you are telling us that Ukraine would continue fighting for justice, not just for herself, but for the free world. So you will stand firm at this frontier that separates now the free world and the world of tyranny. And the battle will go on, even if there are some pauses, temporary ceasefires, because the war between tyranny and freedom cannot end in a draw, in a game of chess.

C (29:29)

I think that this war will end with strength and strength. It's not just military performance. We have also demonstrated the strength of spirit because we are fighting for something which have no limitation in national borders. It's freedom. We are fighting for freedom in all senses. For a freedom to be independent country, not to have Russian tsar and not to become Russian colony. For a freedom to preserve our Ukrainian identity, our Ukrainian language, our Ukrainian culture, and not to be forced to educate Ukrainian children as Russians. And for a freedom to have our democratic choice to build the country where the rights of everybody are protected. And we are paying the highest price just for this chance.

B (30:24)

Yes, the price Ukraine has paid and has been paying, it's enormous. And that must be the ultimate wake up call for the free world. This is the lesson. This is the most important historic lesson, that freedom has a price. And you have to be willing to pay this price. You don't have to pay it just every day, but there will be pivotal moments in history where you have to show your readiness to pay and to make a sacrifice. And this is something that has been forgotten in the free world. And being reminded every day, being reminded by immense Ukrainian sacrifice, resilience and devotion to the cause of freedom. Freedom. So I can't end this conversation with anything else but saying. Slavo, Ukraini, Alexandra, thank you very much.

C (31:18)

Thank you very much.

B (31:24)

This episode of Photography in America was produced by Arlene Orevolo. Our editor is Dave Shaw. Original music and mix by Rob Smircia Fact Check by Ina Alvarado Special thanks to Polina Kasparov and me Gringot. Claudia Nabay is executive producer of Atlantic Audio. Andrea Valdes is our managing editor. Next time on Autocracy in America.

A (31:50)

The far right has so politicized the notion of truth that it is hard to get people to even talk about it. But I think that there will be a swing back in the pendulum that someday. Whether that happens in the United States is a very complicated situation right now. But I think the world at large is not going to be satisfied with this state of affairs where you can't trust anything.

B (32:14)

I'm Gary Kasparov. See you back here next week.