← Avatar: Braving the Elements
Avatar: Braving the Elements
ATLA Origins Pt. 2: With Creators Mike DiMartino & Bryan Konietzko
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- [00:20]
Janet Varney
Hello friends, benders and non benders alike. Welcome to Braving the Elements, Nickelodeon's brand new podcast about all things Avatar verse. I'm Janet Varney and I am Dante Bosco. And welcome back friends, to the second part of our triumphant conversation with Mike DiMartino and Brian Konetsko, who are of course the brilliant minds behind Avatar the Last Airbender and the Legend of Korra. So if you haven't listened to our second episode ever of Braving the Elements, that is the first half of this conversation, be sure to check that out first. We will be here for the second half of the conversation. We'll be right here waiting for you, don't you worry. Now in that first half of our chat with Mike and Brian, we talked about how they met at risd, Rhode Island School of Design. We talked about what happened after RISD and how they ended up coming together to work on the brilliant idea we all know as Avatar the Last Airbender. And we started to get a little into the process, started teasing the conversation about the phenomenal artists in Korea who were utilize for the show and much, much more. Okay, let's jump into the second half. Now Brian, you know, you and Mike had such a strong vision and here you were kind of working outside of a traditional Hollywood process. Did you have an awareness of that?
- [01:45]
Brian Konietzko
You know, it's a small kind of industry, but the more that we have interfaced with Hollywood at large, I've seen there is the kind of corporate studio sort of like, hey, this is the way it is and if you want to be here by the bright lights, you got to put up with this and that a lot of people have to because they don't have a lot of other options. And so they are knowingly making stuff they don't believe in, knowingly doing work that is below their ability and is cheapened intentionally because that they're trying to make, they're trying to write what's popular and what's going to get them hired and to do it just the standard way. And I don't know, Mike and I just, we're always like, could it be better? Could it be better? Not just the content, but could we be doing this better, could we be using technology better? Could we find better people? Could we train people? Could we learn something? Could we. So we went and tried to learn from the animation studio in Korea and bring that back. You know, we tried to learn from the Korean animation industry and bring that back to the US industry because it was so we thought the TV side of it was so stagnant. The sitcom side, the way they were doing it was. It had just fallen into this weird process.
- [03:01]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah, it's one of those things too where it's like certain processes work fine for certain kinds of shows or, you know, you know, for the sitcom shows, like there's a way to do it and for the most part, depending on the show, it works. But if you're trying to do a different kind of show with a different aesthetic and stuff, you know, you kind of need to switch up the process a little bit to. To get. Get a result you're looking for. So. Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest part that we did was like Brian said the putting more of the power in the animators hands because there's stuff that they came up with that even though we would do storyboards and give them lots of, you know, guidance on. On like what the scene was supposed to be. There's so many times we were. We were pleasantly surprised with what came back because it was like the animator took that raw material and then like put their magic on it and made it. Made it really shine.
- [03:57]
Janet Varney
Yeah, there is some exceptional moments. You sort of feel like it's not that it breaks you out of the action in a way that is disruptive at all. I feel like you can feel the spirit of the human being animating and not to say it's just one person, but just wonderful moments of kind of being smacked, but in a great way, like, oh, I need to see that again. And you can sort of imagine someone having that aha. Moment of like, I know how to make this moment in the action sequence pop and become something that's its own little magical spell that happens.
- [04:26]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah, I mean, that's what was cool with getting to know the artists and the animators over the years, like you would start to recognize people's work. You would know like, oh, I think so and so animated this and. And some like gihyun Ryu, our good friend, like, you know, he was. We always knew a scene by him. But there were other animators too who are fantastic and people brought their, like any thing, you know, if it was storyboarded by a certain artist, you, you know, they put their, their vibe on it and their spin on the characters and stuff. And it, you know, in the end, you know, you all sort of feel like the same show and you don't want to have like a bunch of different styles. But. But even within that, you would. I think it came through like the different artists interpretations.
- [05:09]
Janet Varney
And did you see a creative Evolution with the animators too, in terms of, like, stretching a little bit more and taking more chances or, you know, was there. Was there an evolution like that of, like, oh, you like, I so glad you went for it.
- [05:21]
Brian Konietzko
I think they especially, what was JM Animation, and then a lot of those core artists moved over to form a studio, Mirror Studio Mir, that we worked with, you know, through Korra. I think the character. They just sort of like, made the characters their own. You know, we had our model sheets, but the ideal versions of the, like, the way Aang should look and the way Katara should look and the way those characters move and act and their expressions, it's. That was really solidified by those animators at JM&MIR. And that's really cool to see when they're sort of like, figuring out those characters and bringing them to life. And really, you know, you have that imaginary idea when you're writing and you sort of looking at a model sheet and you're looking at a script and you're looking at a rough storyboard. How's that all going to come together and make this stew? But it's like.
- [06:16]
Janet Varney
And the voice, I guess, right?
- [06:18]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah. Like Jack decenna. I mean, we. We had thought of a slightly different personality for Sokka. He was going to be a lot more like dry wit, you know, a lot more just kind of wry humor. But Jack, I think wacky is an appropriate word for Jack. We love that. You know, he. When he auditioned, we were like, not only is this the person, but we try to just set up everything so that, you know, we have our vision. We have our sort of like, goal posts, but with the writers that come in and the storyboard artists and the designers and the. And the animators and the music, you want to set it up so that everyone can inject that passion and love and idiosyncrasies and all of that in there. And. Yeah, you know, when I was seeing stuff, my own relationship with anime was like, there was stuff that really blew me away when I was younger. And then in college, I just saw a bunch of stuff that I thought was just really misogynistic and, like, gratuitously violent for no reason. And especially when those two were paired, I was like, I don't. I have no interest in this stuff. Not none. You know, I just go watch an early 90s jet Li Kung fu movie instead or something and. But it was working on Zim and Dave Filoni introducing us, kind of reintroducing me to Miyazaki stuff. I Had seen stuff as a kid, didn't know who made it. And then Filoni turned us onto that. And then it was like seeing Cowboy Bebop and Foodie Cootie and just going, oh, like. And I'm someone who's always, like, looking at the top of the mountain. How can I get up there? You know? And that mountain being not success, it's being a creative. You know, this thing. How do we get up there? And I'm looking up there, and Cowboy Bebop and Foodie Cootie are way up the mountain, and I'm like, we're down here.
- [08:09]
Janet Varney
I love that it didn't discourage you, because I think for a. It did. Now I feel better. Now I feel better because it is. That's intimidating, too. I mean, Brian Wilson's famous story about hearing, like, Revolver or Sergeant Pepper or something like that and being like, I'm going to bed and I'm never getting out of it again. Like, the best has been done. There's no point for me.
- [08:30]
Brian Konietzko
You know, the Beatles felt that way about Pet Sounds, you know, and that's. That's the important lesson.
- [08:36]
Janet Varney
Don't. Don't walk away from something because you feel like somebody's, you know, a gajillion percent better than you added. If you can push past that and, you know, have the ambition to get better rather than letting it discourage you. But you're. I'm glad you said that because it is good to hear that it. That. That the discouragement is part of that and can be part of the process, too. That it's not just as simple as, like, well, that's better than anything I've ever done, but I'll get there someday. Like that you can have those conversations where one day you're like, I should just. I should stop doing this. This is making me crazy. And then the next day going, you know, I feel better. I feel better. Like, I'm gonna. You know, maybe I will get up there at some point. Like, those are. It's. It's very fluid, Right?
- [09:17]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah. I feel like it also doesn't go away. Yeah. Also good to hear these successes and stuff. It's like, I still feel like I don't have the time. I'm like, I forgot how to write, apparently. I have no idea. How do you write? How do you write a character? I don't know.
- [09:31]
Brian Konietzko
I can't draw.
- [09:33]
Mike DiMartino
I don't know how to draw anymore.
- [09:35]
Dante Bosco
I think we're always chasing giants as, like. As a lot of people are chasing you guys after this series to a degree, you know what I'm saying? And not in a bad way, but in a way of inspiration.
- [09:45]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah.
- [09:45]
Mike DiMartino
I mean, I hope it's inspired.
- [09:46]
Janet Varney
Yeah.
- [09:46]
Mike DiMartino
I mean, ideally, it's part discouraging, but hopefully mostly inspiring where it's like, oh, I want to create. I want to try and at this and get better. And.
- [09:57]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, I think that the human spirit is like the. The like, magic ingredient and, like, genuine passion and that comes through. It comes through, especially in handmade animation. You know, stuff that's drawn. There's a real fingerprint of the artist in the work to the point that, I mean, sometimes, you know, someone's storyboard drawings might be a little wonky and it. It seeps into the final animation and you're like, oh, geez, that person's, you know, stuff kind of got in there and. And. But, you know, there's. There are a ton of episodes. You know, it was hard to keep the quality up. It was an incredibly ambitious show, the original series. And. And we were just figuring stuff out in the overseas studios. We had, at one point, three different studios, so we were trying to get the American crews who weren't into anime or weren't into Miyazaki, trying to get them up to speed and. And get the sitcom out of them or the kids TV animation out of them and try to get them to, you know, to understand what we were going for. This amalgam of inspirations. And. And I think, like, you know, I look back, there's a bunch of stuff that I just think, oh, I wish that scene was animated better. I don't like the way this characters look in this episode. And it doesn't matter. You know, it matters. Sure, it would be nice if it all was super slick and looked its utter best, but it still delivers this really powerful, complete package to people that go straight to their hearts. And, you know, and that's important for us to remember, too, is like, look, I'm. Now I'm. I never going to be able to draw like Miyazaki. I will never be able to animate like him. I'm not even. It's not ever going to happen. It's okay. You know, and that's not just, like, hero worship.
- [11:56]
Mike DiMartino
It's just.
- [11:57]
Brian Konietzko
It's just facts, you know, and I'm okay with that. But even us lowly, you know, American mortals, sitcom animators, like, it's still. There's. Everybody still has some, like, humanity and some spark and spirit that if it's genuinely getting into your work and you can you can, if it's. You can get other people around you inspired. You know, you can make something that's. That really touches people. And it doesn't have to be perfect and slick and world class, you know, it's still worth it. And. But of course, as artists, we're always chasing something because there's the thing in your head or that thing that you see that you just love so much.
- [12:43]
Dante Bosco
Yet some people still regard this as perfect. Like this, the first. This first series, they're like, it's perfect.
- [12:50]
Brian Konietzko
It's a perfect that blows me away. There's so much that I would face.
- [12:53]
Dante Bosco
It literally, it comes across every pitch, meeting these avatars become a part of the buzzwords, you know, within Hollywood, where animation or anything, it's always comes back in. What can it be more like? How about. And then you're like, they're talking about
- [13:07]
Brian Konietzko
this perfect thing, but that's wrong. They should take that inspiration and then go do something else. I mean, that's what we did. We didn't just try to make cowboy bebop or foodie cootie. It doesn't look like either of those.
- [13:18]
Janet Varney
Well, I know Dante and I would love to hear more about the process, the overall process of putting an animated show like this together. Dante and I were actually talking to each other and realized we really don't have any idea what the director of an animated show even does. Like, in our minds, the director of an episode is the person who is telling the camera people what to do, telling us what to do. Like, is present with the actors.
- [13:42]
Mike DiMartino
It's similar, it's just different.
- [13:44]
Brian Konietzko
It's the same. But they have to draw it all. The camera and the character, the actor drawn. So they are directing the artist drawing it, you know?
- [13:52]
Janet Varney
You know, is there a point, especially in the first season, where it's all down to you? You're listening for this pass. Like you suddenly notice that Aang's footsteps seem a little too crunchy. We got our Zuko microscopic examiner here with Brian. How hard is it to at a certain point go, you know what? They're just going to have to stay the amount of crunchy that they are because there's other stuff I need to focus on.
- [14:14]
Brian Konietzko
We gave notes. If a showrunner is a professional note giver, and we give notes on everything, including Zuko's crunchy footsteps. That's the foley. It's very important.
- [14:25]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah, with animation, too, you're literally examining every. Well, I would say every frame, but really every two frames. You know, like, so we. And Back in the old days when we were just had our VCR with the episode on it, like trying to call retakes, which is like the most frustrating part of the process, but also the most crucial because that's where after the animation comes back from, from the overseas studio, you know, you have a chance to. To fix the things that aren't quite right yet. Some of which are like, really bad problems. Like, whoa, Katara's face is like her eyes over here.
- [14:58]
Brian Konietzko
That does not look good.
- [15:00]
Mike DiMartino
Or two little subtle things like, I don't know, Aang's hand is missing his arrow or little details or something's off model. But that's the thing that's after, like both of us and directors looking at these things and frame by framing through animation and going, like, we gotta fix this one frame. And you do draw overs. And yeah, it's a very tedious process.
- [15:23]
Brian Konietzko
And you can only fix so much because all of the fixes that the animators have to do, they've already moved on to the next episode. So when you are saying, I get it, you've moved on and you're all tired from doing this episode, but there's stuff that's broken in here, we've got to fix it. Or you might have creative. Oh, we thought of this idea late. That's called a creative retake where you pay for it. But you say, we need to change this thing. And the animators are telling you, but it's going to take away from the next episode. And we're like, yeah, but this episode's not in shape to be shown to people, you know, and being a showrunner, you have to care about everything, everything. And a lot of showrunners, I think, don't. And that's why the shows, it's not like a real honed vision. They have the things that they. That are important to them, and then they just sort of don't care about it. If you have great people in charge of those other things, it could still work. It's not that the showrunner or showrunners are the only ones that can make those decisions, but I think the shows that you see that really feel specific. It feels like a specific vision is that person cared about the lighting and the clothing and the sound, how crunchy those things are, and the type of editing and the pacing and the music, because that is all part of the story. It's all part of the world. It's all part of the. The creative vision. But it's. We did know Seth MacFarlane. Mike knew him Much better. But I knew him a bit. When we first got out here, we saw firsthand, close proximity, what it was like to be a showrunner. And I never had any delusions that it was some glamorous, like, kicking back and every. It's just so fun. I knew right from when I got out here how hard that was. And then I became friends with Joan and Vasquez making Zimmer, and saw how hard that was. And so I. It wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna run a show, some sort of glamorous throne. It was more like, oh, we're gonna get in the ring. Like, okay, we've trained. Do you want to actually fight? You know, and that's. That's the analogy I use now, because it is not for everybody. And it should. I don't recommend it for everybody. It's not the be all, end all. You can have a great career and not be a showrunner.
- [17:44]
Janet Varney
And so after this intense work schedule and all the different bits and pieces that go into this, what did it feel like when you knew the show was premiering?
- [17:53]
Mike DiMartino
I mean, the thing with. With doing the show was that we were still in the middle of, like, heavy production. So it wasn't like we had finished it. It wasn't like a movie where, like, you finished it. Oh, it's coming out in a few months. Oh, boy, You. You have time to worry and stuff like that. I don't remember exactly, but, you know, there's certainly some. Some. Some expectations like, oh, I hope it does well, and. And, you know, we get to make more and all that. But we were still in the thick of doing season one when the. The first episode aired. So it was like, you know, we had the premiere party. We had a moment to, like, enjoy the. It coming out, and then it was like back to work the next day on whatever episode we were working on at the time. So. And really, it was like that for all three seasons. Even when we finished season one, we were already writing on season two. You know, I think all through Avatar, I think I took one vacation, maybe, or maybe two. I remember taking away. It took a big trip at the end.
- [18:48]
Dante Bosco
But did you guys ever have any expectations? You know, I know as an actor doing the show, and I've talked about other interviews, like, I've had zero expectations because it didn't make any sense that this show was on Nickelodeon when I was doing it. And I was like, it's a fun show. I had no idea what it was gonna become. We were. We were outside the Noise of social media at that time, doing the show. And so for it to become what it became was a big surprise to me that I love. And I was like, wow, this amazing. The whole show was a big surprise to me. But as you guys are doing it, did you guys have any expectations of. It felt like a departure from. From Nickelodeon to a degree. What they were doing before and what they haven't really done anything like it since, you know.
- [19:28]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah, I mean, we were doing the continuous storytelling and the binge ability thing before. That was a thing, you know, and that was some early conversations with Eric was like, he was totally supportive of that approach. It was just, hey, make sure each episode has kind of a beginning, middle and end. It's not just like cliffhanger, cliffhanger, cliffhanger kind of thing, which was fine with us. We like that storytelling where you're telling a longer story in these. These shorter chunks. And I think that was more like common in anime back around that time. And like, that was around the time Lost was coming out. And like it was out there, but especially certainly for, I think for American TV animation. I. I can't think of another show that was doing that at that time. But I do remember even at. At the time and on those message boards, like, if there was an episode that like, didn't 100% move the overall plot forward, it was like, oh, it was suddenly a filler episode. And forget that episode. And I was like, what is this filler? It's like it's all part of the story, guys. Come on.
- [20:32]
Dante Bosco
Filler? Yeah, they call it anime filler.
- [20:34]
Janet Varney
That was. People say that about Omashu, right? It was like, what are you talking about?
- [20:38]
Mike DiMartino
Well, and that's. In the end, some of those episodes end up becoming, you know, Omashu is actually super crucial episode because it's the, you know. You know, you introduce Bumi.
- [20:48]
Janet Varney
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [20:50]
Mike DiMartino
And yeah, I mean, the most famous one is the great divide one, which I'll give them. I'll say that's pretty filler. Y.
- [20:57]
Brian Konietzko
That's terrible. How could you've got this big gap. It's a big empty hole. Yet it is filler.
- [21:03]
Janet Varney
Oh no.
- [21:04]
Dante Bosco
I actually grown to like that. I've grown to like that episode a lot.
- [21:08]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, I was not happy with it, but. But every. Even the episodes that I wasn't as stoked on, there were always moments that I really liked. And that one has some, you know, the little. The various versions of the story, you know, and the cute little game they play at the end.
- [21:27]
Dante Bosco
I Like the art. The different. I like the art shift. In the episodes. I always.
- [21:31]
Janet Varney
Yeah.
- [21:32]
Dante Bosco
With Giancarlo Volpe, I always introduced John Carlo Giancarlo as the director of the
- [21:37]
Mike DiMartino
great divide that had the canyon. The canyon crawlers in it, which I feel like was. It was a cool, creepy animal that we didn't use.
- [21:45]
Janet Varney
Yeah, they're super creepy. Great job, guys.
- [21:48]
Dante Bosco
I felt like we ch. If the ending changed a little bit from the lie. It could have. We'd have a whole different feeling about.
- [21:55]
Brian Konietzko
Nah, I don't think that would save it.
- [21:57]
Janet Varney
Wait a minute. From the lie. Oh, the lie thing. That's what people hold on to.
- [22:01]
Brian Konietzko
So it's not like it's the only
- [22:02]
Janet Varney
time Aang does some foreshadow report. Foreshadow report, Foreshadow report. It's not like it's the only time he, as a child makes a choice that is not.
- [22:12]
Brian Konietzko
He's trickster. He's a trickster. Yeah.
- [22:14]
Janet Varney
He learned from the best.
- [22:15]
Brian Konietzko
Dante, your earlier question. Did we expect or hope? Honestly, you know, describing how challenging it is as a showrunner and the prize I kept my eyes on was just finishing the story. It's not that I didn't hope it would be successful or wonder or whatever, but I just thought we just needed to be successful enough that we can get to the end. That's it. Because it wasn't just a show that was like a reset button and, oh, we got to make X number of seasons of it. And then it got cancelled. We weren't trying to drag this thing on forever. We pitched it with a beginning, a middle, and an end, and we just wanted to finish telling the story. That was the only thing that would bum me out, was that if that opportunity would be cut short and however successful it might be, we were trying to make something that would last. You know, you write some fantasy novel that lives on the shelves of your Barnes and Nobles and your libraries and stuff. So I grew up on that kind of stuff. I want to add to that pantheon. Like cool fantasy stories, cool animation. The trajectory of its popularity has really just kind of gone up and up and up and up.
- [23:19]
Janet Varney
Well, that for the exact reason that you just said. And what Dante said earlier is like that when people talk about how perfect it is, maybe they aren't talking about whether in this frame, Sokka's still holding a cup. And then the next he is. He's put it down. Which, by the way, Sokka might have just put the cup down. Like it's really okay.
- [23:35]
Brian Konietzko
The best retort to any that is like, why don't you make a show? And I will be there and I will point out all of the retakes that you didn't fix.
- [23:43]
Janet Varney
Yeah, but to be able to lean into the fact that that much attention to detail is coming as part of a compendium of this avatar wiki that is so thorough, only huge, passionate love for this world could have created something that would then keep track of like a, you know, a fun gaffe here and that those things become. Not even. There's not a criticism of the work. It's like, know the most. I know the most about this thing that I love so fiercely. That part of my love for it means I can point out when Sokka isn't holding the cup anymore. And that's not a. That's not a criticism. It's part of the package of me being an Uber fan. That's not me. But. But, you know, but I see why
- [24:28]
Dante Bosco
that's the real success of the show when it's so good and. And we've seen it firsthand, I'm sure you guys have too, is when people adopt the show for themselves. It's like the character Zuko, the. The whole story of Aang, like it's theirs. It means so much to them that it says something about them when they talk. When they're talking to me about the show, they're talking about themselves. And that's. I mean, you know, it only happens a few times in my career that certain characters have transcended, certain stories have transcended, and people have adopted it as their story. And it's always. It just makes you feel good as a storyteller to be a part of these great stories. If you're lucky, it happens to you once. You know what I'm saying? And so it's one of those projects.
- [25:09]
Janet Varney
Dante, you're so right. I love everything you're saying. I couldn't agree more. That's so true. And that's one of the things that we hear about as actors is. Yeah, that intense identification with fictitious character that has then helped people identify better with what they want in their own lives or what's holding them back in their own lives or who they need to communicate better with or differently with in their lives. That's huge.
- [25:34]
Brian Konietzko
That idea that once you release art out into the world, it. It's no longer yours. You know, it's like you may give birth to a child, but that child is its own person and it's not you. And it goes on to have its own life and interacts with people. And art is very much the same way. And, you know, for me, my favorite medium is music, and they're is music by my favorite artists that is such an intrinsic part of my life and my memory and my identity and the evolution of my thoughts and personality and especially the music. You know, they have, I think Oliver Sacks or. I don't know, people have studied, like, the music you're listening to when you're 12, 13, 14, you're, like, going through puberty and your brain's forming, and you're, like, figuring out who you are. Mike and I talk about this all the time. It's like this notion, like, that stories are like kind of instruction manuals for living and dealing with other people. And then sometimes you get the right manual at the right time, and it makes a big impact on you. So, yeah, it's like you released it out into the world. It's your thing, but it's also not your thing anymore. You know, it's. It's. Because it is part is now wrapped up in someone else's life and their brain and heart and community.
- [27:00]
Janet Varney
We do have a segment in the show called Animal Crossing, the original Animal Crossing, where we talk about hybrids that we've met. Obviously, we've met Appa. We've seen some otter penguins.
- [27:10]
Dante Bosco
I just found out that Appa was half manatee. I didn't even know. I never knew that on this podcast,
- [27:17]
Brian Konietzko
read the art book.
- [27:19]
Janet Varney
He looked up a manatee on. On the Internet and said, oh, yeah,
- [27:23]
Dante Bosco
I learned stuff every day. I had to look at my manatee and then the body floating. I was like, that's Appa. There he is.
- [27:34]
Brian Konietzko
Also, you were criticizing their posture. But they're underwater, Dante.
- [27:38]
Dante Bosco
I know.
- [27:39]
Janet Varney
I didn't know why.
- [27:39]
Brian Konietzko
It's not like they're sitting in a chair.
- [27:41]
Dante Bosco
Like, I thought Appa slumped a lot. I was like, this guy got horses, horrible posture. What's wrong with this dude?
- [27:47]
Brian Konietzko
Have you ever seen a bison? They have humps on their back. Dante. That's not all. Just. It's not like his bad posture. It's the shape of his back.
- [27:55]
Dante Bosco
I mean, I like Appa. I didn't ponder him a whole lot.
- [27:58]
Mike DiMartino
You're dissing on Appa now?
- [28:00]
Dante Bosco
Oh, my gosh, he's a homie. I love me some Appa.
- [28:03]
Janet Varney
Right? And Mike, so you very kindly listened to our pilot episode, and you both said wonderful things, and they're pretty short pieces of feedback in the top. And then after Brian's signature, and then like, a Series of information about what his job is and running Avatar Studios and all this. Then it was like, P.S. tiny P, tiny S. And it's like a page of, like, esoterica in the best way. It was like, I mean, if you're curious. Okay, listen, this is the reason that. No, it is not the only place like this. That village is not the entirety of the Southern water Tron. You can tell Dante I said it's like he show ran the episode, which is what we needed. So it was.
- [28:45]
Brian Konietzko
Being that kind of annoying human is a good trait for a showrunner.
- [28:52]
Dante Bosco
That's a great trait for showrunner.
- [28:53]
Brian Konietzko
It's not great for making friends.
- [28:55]
Janet Varney
No, I loved it because it showed that you paid attention. And listen, if you had said, you know, at the top of the email, like, wow, guys, wow, let's talk. You know, this is. This is not anything close to what I would ever want associated with the show. Of course, page of notes would be. But that's. You said the thing that mattered, and then you were like, I'm just going to throw in a few.
- [29:15]
Brian Konietzko
That's why it was in the ps.
- [29:16]
Janet Varney
In case it helps.
- [29:17]
Dante Bosco
In case it helps, yes. Dante knows nothing.
- [29:20]
Brian Konietzko
They were.
- [29:21]
Dante Bosco
What did he do this show?
- [29:22]
Janet Varney
Was Dante in the world?
- [29:24]
Brian Konietzko
I don't know if people use this word anymore, but they were factoids. I was just dropping some factoids that
- [29:31]
Janet Varney
you could use later if you wanted hot factoids. And we have popped up.
- [29:36]
Brian Konietzko
Fact. Exactly.
- [29:37]
Janet Varney
Oh, that's right. Okay, so back to Animal Crossing. Do you have a favorite or two?
- [29:43]
Brian Konietzko
I think Appa will always be my favorite one because it was the first one. Well, that's not true, actually. Naga. Because the first drawing of Aang had Naga in it. And so we. We came up with Naga even before Appa. So that was one of those that didn't make it into the first series, just for whatever reason.
- [30:04]
Janet Varney
But that is in the art book. Yeah.
- [30:05]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah.
- [30:06]
Janet Varney
I feel like Naga is referenced.
- [30:07]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, we just. It just didn't make its way in. But when we came back, we were like, hey, remember that design? Oh, yeah, we could use that, Appa, because it was the first one that, you know, I had this little sketch of Aang just happily sitting on his head and he was shepherding a whole flock of them through the sky. Had no idea how they flew. Didn't know why any of them had arrows or whatever. But back when we were in that intense period between meeting with Eric Coleman and then pitching to him, I actually went to Florida on a quick trip and got to swim in Nature with a manatee.
- [30:42]
Janet Varney
That's what happened to me.
- [30:43]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, I heard you say that. I actually got to swim with one. It was incredible. With a manatee, sweetest thing. You could just feel its benevolence, you know, like you really can feel its presence.
- [30:55]
Janet Varney
You want to take care of it, even though it's so much bigger than you. Like sort of the elephant thing where you're just like, oh, you're so gentle
- [31:02]
Brian Konietzko
and wonderful, beautiful, gentle creature.
- [31:04]
Janet Varney
And terrible posture. Terrible posture.
- [31:07]
Mike DiMartino
Terrible stuff.
- [31:07]
Janet Varney
Right?
- [31:07]
Dante Bosco
Dajay, he lives in zero gravity, I understand.
- [31:11]
Brian Konietzko
And he's eating off the sea floor, so it's good to have its head down there.
- [31:15]
Dante Bosco
It's good to have that, yeah.
- [31:17]
Brian Konietzko
And then, and then Naga, because Naga was, you know, later when we went to finalize the design, I worked in my dog Gunther and Mike's dog Truman. They were brothers. I worked in some aspects. When I went, like, took Gunther to snow and I had little snow gloves for him, you know, like the dog mittens. He was like, Naga, his front paws were huge and I could not get the mittens over his front paws. And then his back paws were tiny and they, they slipped right over. I was like, you really are Naga. But Dark Horse made a really adorable plush of Naga and it, it's based on my style guide pose of Naga that they used, you know, in press stuff and they really captured that pose. So we still, Gunther and Truman sadly have passed on, but we have that plush on our mantle and it's just, it's, it's like a little thing. And then lastly, Momo, even though Momo's a lemur. I never had a lemur, but that was really based on my cat buddy just would sort of draw a cat body and then put big ears on it. So those are, you know, the original, the original three are probably my favorites.
- [32:20]
Mike DiMartino
Yes. I mean, the classic Apomomo Naga, of course, are amazing. The badger moles were cool. I like those guys. There's this one animal that we put in the, like, I think it was just in the finale because we needed a super fast land animal. And I don't remember exactly who came up with it, but it was an eel hound. I want to do more with eel hounds because it has a lot of potential and we didn't really get to do too much with them, but they were kind of cool.
- [32:46]
Dante Bosco
Spin off show. Ill hound in the new universe.
- [32:49]
Mike DiMartino
Kind of like a greyhound with a crazy eel neck. And it was, it was a weird, it was a weird one, but it looked cool.
- [32:54]
Dante Bosco
We go to the eel hound races in Miami and just bet on the illhound races.
- [32:59]
Brian Konietzko
Ours are ethical, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:01]
Dante Bosco
Ethical, ethical, ethical.
- [33:02]
Janet Varney
Illhound races started by run by themselves. They're in control. It's great. It's exactly how they want it. Eel hounds. You've heard it here. You heard it here.
- [33:10]
Dante Bosco
And I gotta ask about Bosco the bear. Cause I get asked about Bosco the bear all the time. I'm like, I don't know that he's
- [33:18]
Mike DiMartino
just a regular bear.
- [33:19]
Dante Bosco
Why is he just a regular bear?
- [33:20]
Brian Konietzko
So, all right, this is when you have a bunch of really smart writers who went to Ivy league schools and stuff. First of all, they're like hybrid animals. Wait, we gotta do a bunch of jokes about that? And then they're like, wait, let's do a joke about not having a hybrid animal. That's its own joke. Bosco was named after Lisa, our friend Lisa who worked on the show. It was named after her dog. It was not named after you. I never thought of the connection. This year she was named after her other dog. So both of.
- [33:48]
Dante Bosco
Oh, wow.
- [33:49]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, both of her dogs. And then June was based on her visually, and then May was based on her personality. So she had four characters in the show that were.
- [33:59]
Janet Varney
Oh, my God, that's pretty cool.
- [34:01]
Mike DiMartino
Bosco's name was spelled differently than your last name. So it was B O S. It
- [34:05]
Janet Varney
is spelled differently, yeah. You know, we'll be asking some guests if they have a ship that they get behind, I think. I'm not going to ask. We don't want to ask you guys that. I think for us it's more. What's interesting is when did you become aware of that as a phenomenon and did you have any kind of specific reaction to it?
- [34:28]
Brian Konietzko
We were just talking to our 25 year old junior exec about this. Yeah, shipping, as far as I know, I'm not gonna say it didn't exist because anything humans can think of, I'm sure existed somewhere in people's heads. But like, as a cultural phenomenon, as a driving force of fandoms, I had never, ever, ever, ever, ever heard of two of someone sitting there, not even while watching the show and thinking about two characters in that show who are not together and just spending mental psychic energy wishing they would just get together like that is such an alien concept to me. And I can't even think of having something of a remote version of that in my head.
- [35:25]
Janet Varney
What about Flynn and Yuri from Tron? Did you ever ship Flynn and Yuri?
- [35:30]
Brian Konietzko
Exactly.
- [35:31]
Janet Varney
From Tron?
- [35:32]
Brian Konietzko
Maybe I thought, oh, maybe these characters are gonna get together. Like, I sense some tension there, but I would never. Then, like, I need to go write some fanfic. 10 pages.
- [35:42]
Dante Bosco
About more than 10 pages.
- [35:43]
Mike DiMartino
I mean, I feel like on those. Like, we were talking about those early message boards. I can't remember if the term was used, but there was definitely talk about, like, the Zuko Katara, the Angan Katara, that stuff. Then I forget how we learned about it, but someone was like, you know, shipping's a thing. And I was like, what are you talking about? And. And was educated that this was, in fact, a thing that people thought about.
- [36:07]
Janet Varney
You can understand it from the perspective of. And this why I love Korrasami so much is that in so much of contemporary culture shows and all, you know, basically all kinds of storytelling, you don't have a whole lot of shipping of gay characters.
- [36:23]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, they're not being represented.
- [36:25]
Janet Varney
And so the idea of that existing and needing to exist in a fandom, it took on a whole new meaning for me. When you think about it that way, it's like, oh, that you have to invent it because it's not really recognized the way straight shipping would be.
- [36:40]
Brian Konietzko
That is a fair point. And to answer your question, do I have a ship? Korra Asami was my first ship. I was the first Korrasami shipper. And I've battled fans over this at cons. They're like, I was the first. And I'm like, I was in the writers room with Mike when you didn't know who Asami was or Korra battling
- [36:59]
Janet Varney
with the show's creator is bold.
- [37:01]
Mike DiMartino
Bold.
- [37:02]
Dante Bosco
When you released that the day after with the thing, I saw it on Tumblr. Me, along with the rest of the fandom, probably just kind of got emotional and cry. Couldn't imagine. I can't believe they did. I was like, I just don't. I can't believe he did it. He really did. It's crazy.
- [37:16]
Brian Konietzko
Well, we did what we could. And, you know, as it says in that our statements, you know, it obviously wasn't as far as we would have liked to have gone, but all I'll say is a few years later now, and just what. What I'm seeing in media, it's encouraging, and I'm glad that we were just part of that wave, and it was cool to see. It's cool to see other shows that were. Other animated shows that were going on around town at the same time that were maybe a little after us, but they were able to take it A little further. But, no, honestly, I was just describing that. It was so strange to me. It was also strange to me. I've said this many times. When I got to art school and realized people were still watching Star Wars, I didn't know that was happening. So my reaction to shipping was also similar. I was like, what? What's going on? Why are you doing that? If people want to ship, totally fine.
- [38:10]
Janet Varney
Mike, any thoughts you want to add to that?
- [38:13]
Mike DiMartino
No judgments. People, you ship who you want ship.
- [38:18]
Brian Konietzko
There's your Aang and Zuko comparison right there. You know?
- [38:25]
Mike DiMartino
You know, we try not to let what we want to do, though. Like, we. We're gonna put the characters together that we think make the most interesting stories and. And stuff, and we know there's gonna be reactions no matter what combination we do so.
- [38:39]
Brian Konietzko
Or don't do.
- [38:39]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah. So or don't do so.
- [38:41]
Janet Varney
Right. Right.
- [38:42]
Mike DiMartino
You're gonna. You're gonna make some people happy. Some people are not gonna be happy because these characters are not together. But, I mean, that's kind of what you do as writers is like. You're like, I want to see these two characters together. Let's see what happens when these two meet and.
- [38:54]
Brian Konietzko
Or whatever. Sometimes the. And it's not just about romantic relationships. I mean, I've seen other writers and showrunners talk about this. You get to know your characters, and they start telling you. If you respect them and think of them as real people, which I think you should, they'll start telling you what's true to them and true to their character and where they want, what choices they would make, and you try to listen. I think that's important.
- [39:20]
Dante Bosco
I've somehow become the captain of the Zutara ship online throughout the years, somehow.
- [39:25]
Brian Konietzko
You are the zoo.
- [39:26]
Dante Bosco
I am. But I give him this. I gave him this poem, and it goes, I love. I love Zutara, even though it's not canon, because I'm a hopeless romantic, some things are best left to be imagined. And, like, let it be. Like, it's okay. That's just it, y'. All. Let's not trip out. Imagination's cool. That's fine. Enjoy yourselves.
- [39:47]
Janet Varney
This is off the top of your head. Each of you just in this moment, whatever bubbles to mind. Within book one, within water, a place that you can drop into. You're not reliving the plot. You just get to hang in that environment, you know, with those characters. Like, if you could just zip in there for a little bit.
- [40:05]
Mike DiMartino
Not because you just said zip, but. But Jet's treehouse. Zipline little area. Not because I thought Jet was cool.
- [40:14]
Dante Bosco
That's a whole nother episode. Going deep into Jet is a whole nother hanging out.
- [40:18]
Mike DiMartino
Hanging out in the tree forts.
- [40:20]
Janet Varney
Oh, I can't wait to get to Jet Rufio.
- [40:23]
Dante Bosco
I don't know. That's the most.
- [40:24]
Mike DiMartino
That seems like that's the most complicated
- [40:25]
Dante Bosco
character I think in the series that you really gotta look at him and be like, what were you got? What? I don't know. That's another. That's another whole conversation.
- [40:34]
Brian Konietzko
Yeah, I. I honestly was gonna say this. I love tree fort and it had like the fall foliage, even though I think it wasn't fall.
- [40:44]
Dante Bosco
I too love tree forts. Being a former Lost Boy also.
- [40:48]
Janet Varney
Exactly. That's what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, sounds good to me. Those are great choices. And then have to ask. Understand that you probably can't say much about it, but is there anything you can tell us about Avatar Studios and kind of the future of where things are going?
- [41:03]
Mike DiMartino
Just that we are working hard on some new stories. New. We're overseeing the whole franchise, so it's going to take a while before new stuff starts percolating out there. But rest assured, we are working hard to satisfy the desires of everyone.
- [41:21]
Brian Konietzko
We just keep tapping into this wellspring in the way that inspires us and finding great creative partners to work with us and to help us explore these ideas. And so, yeah, Mike and I have sort of mapped out a very ambitious, multi. Tiered. I don't know, it feels like a big octopus. And. And we're just looking at how we can go deeper into this big, rich, largely untapped history and future in the Avatar world. So there are ideas that we've been excited about for a long time that we're finally getting to really dive into. And then there's things that we're just figuring out and just getting really excited about. And if we were just trying to take requests and it's not the way to. It's not the way to carve out a big fantasy universe, but. Go ahead, Mike.
- [42:16]
Dante Bosco
Sorry.
- [42:16]
Mike DiMartino
Oh, no. It's just. It's the cool thing I think we can say about it that without giving anything away is like the way we're approaching it now is like so different than Avatar. You know, we're coming in now and we have unprecedented support from Nickelodeon. So it is the franchise and like the shows and animated stuff, but also, you know, other stuff beyond and publishing and. And podcasts like you're doing and all that stuff. So just to have this like, super big picture, like Brian was talking about. Big picture. I like big picture things. Like looking at this giant picture. We're not like, oh, we have all these ideas. We might, maybe we'll get to make one of them. But it's like, oh, we have all the ideas. And ideally we're gonna get to, over the years, explore all of them and get to make them, but it'll take
- [43:01]
Brian Konietzko
some time, a lot of time. It's a long plan, and again, it is multi. Tiered. And what's neat is that we want each of these projects to have its own feeling, its own tone and look. And so it will all feel true to the Avatar world, but they will all be very different expressions of it. So it will really deepen it and expand it. And we've been lucky that the two series we've made already reached quite a diverse, you know, international young, old audience. People that really aren't even into animation or maybe don't even have kids, but have ended up watching the show. I think the new stuff will even push into other audiences. You know, as always, we're not chasing audiences. It's always just like, got to start from that genuine inspiration and that. That test audience of us. Just. Is this what we think?
- [43:54]
Janet Varney
Yeah.
- [43:54]
Brian Konietzko
Feels true to Avatar. Is this what we think? We're excited to tell.
- [43:58]
Janet Varney
And
- [44:00]
Brian Konietzko
I think it's amazing how when I was in high school reading Lord of the Rings and I just loved. Inspired me to try to write my own stories as a teenager and to illustrate them. And the way fans interact with stuff now is so creative and interactive. And they're using the show as. I mean, we were talking about, when you release these things, they're not really yours anymore. Like on Korra, like, people would take a still that I would post and they would, like, put it into After Effects and add a camera move and parallax and eye blink, and I'm like, whoa. Like, they were interacting with this stuff in such a creative way. I loved all the jokes and memes and poking fun at us, and I loved it. Like in the heyday of Tumblr, I thought that was great. You know, it was fun. It was so fertile and creative. So, yeah, there's all. There's. We're gonna explore a bunch of stuff that we want to do, but it's like it's just gonna crack open even more stuff for people to be inspired, and they're always free to do their own fan art and fan animation and fan fiction and stuff. We just try to keep it I love that. I think it's awesome. But we just try to keep that out of our heads and just tell the story. I don't want to tell Miyazaki what his next movie should be. You know, I just want to see it. I just want to see it. And not that we're Miyazaki, but you just want to let those creators do their thing from that. Whatever that place is, that they're getting their inspiration. That's what's interesting.
- [45:32]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah.
- [45:32]
Janet Varney
You guys show up for yourselves. You show up for each other. You show up for the work, and you are showing up for the fans. Just by doing those things, that translates to creating new, wonderful stuff. And I know Dante and I. I mean, listen, we're here as fans, so
- [45:49]
Brian Konietzko
we're fans of you two, too.
- [45:51]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah. And if we make all this stuff, you guys just be podcasting for about the next 20 years or so.
- [45:56]
Janet Varney
I think we've totally talked about that. We're like, this is amazing.
- [46:00]
Dante Bosco
We're reporting on the Avatar verse.
- [46:02]
Janet Varney
I'm happy to just be a fan who talks about it on a meta level for the rest of my life. I'm perfectly happy that that is, like, my jam.
- [46:10]
Brian Konietzko
We'll try to give you good stuff.
- [46:13]
Janet Varney
I couldn't be less concerned. I feel very hopeful that this will not be the last time that we have you on.
- [46:20]
Brian Konietzko
Please have us back. Yeah.
- [46:21]
Mike DiMartino
Yeah.
- [46:22]
Janet Varney
Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
- [46:24]
Mike DiMartino
Thank you guys for doing this.
- [46:26]
Janet Varney
Thanks for giving us a little peek at what is coming up in the future. Dante, thank you, as always, for being my amazing buddy and wonderful co host.
- [46:36]
Dante Bosco
Thank you, Mike, Brian, man, I miss you guys. It's always great to hang.
- [46:39]
Brian Konietzko
Thank you so much for having us on. It's been awesome. We feel so honored that you are running our podcast. No. But when we heard that you two would be helming this project, we were so excited. And you two have just been such amazing ambassadors of the Avatarverse. And the fans love you. And, Janet, you and I would sit next to each other at so many signings, and. And I would just see you and the. And, like, fans just bawling together. And I've done that a little bit
- [47:18]
Janet Varney
with fans, but, like, someone shows up with tears in their eyes. Also have tears in my eyes.
- [47:24]
Dante Bosco
Yeah.
- [47:24]
Brian Konietzko
You connect with them in a way that is so special. And Dante is the hardest working person in the con business, and. And, you know, I just know the fans appreciate it so much because, you know, you two are just luminaries. So thank you so much.
- [47:41]
Mike DiMartino
Thank you. It was great talking to you.
- [47:43]
Janet Varney
Well, friends, we hope you enjoyed these two very special episodes with Mike and Brian. We have tons more special content to come subscribe, whether it be on Apple podcasts or the iHeartRadio app or Spotify or just wherever you get your podcasts. And speaking of special episodes, we are excited to dive right back into the TV series. We will return with you next week. Thanks so much for listening to Braving the Elements.
- [48:13]
Mike DiMartino
Paw Patrol is coming to theaters and
- [48:15]
Brian Konietzko
it's bigger than ever.
- [48:16]
Janet Varney
Welcome to Dino Island Run to get tickets. I'm a bono, this is as fast
- [48:22]
Dante Bosco
as I can go.
- [48:23]
Janet Varney
Paw Patrol, the Dino movie only in theaters August 14th. Rated Patriot.