IP Secrets Every Inventor Should Know with Carmine Denisco

Summary

B2B Breakthrough Podcast Summary
Episode: IP Secrets Every Inventor Should Know with Carmine Denisco
Release Date: April 16, 2025
Host: Sierra Christo
Guest: Carmine Denisco, Entrepreneur and Product Development Specialist

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1. Introduction to Intellectual Property (IP)

Carmine Denisco kicks off the conversation by emphasizing the importance of not letting fear hinder progress in business. He highlights that success often attracts imitators but advises inventors to stay ahead rather than attempting to halt copycats.

Carmine Denisco [00:01]: "Don't let fear stop you from moving forward... Just put it in your head someone's going to copy me... stay ahead of it."

2. Understanding the Basics of Intellectual Property

Carmine provides a foundational overview of IP, explaining its role in securing rights to ideas, designs, products, or logos. He underscores that IP serves as a critical tool for inventors to own, distribute, and monetize their creations.

Carmine Denisco [01:47]: "Intellectual property is super important to be used as a tool in the right place at the right time... it gives you the right to be able to sell or own or distribute in a sense, and make money off your idea."

3. Carmine’s Clientele and Industry Scope

Carmine discusses the diverse range of clients he works with, spanning various industries from sports and medical products to home tools. He explains that his expertise helps inventors transform ideas—from novel inventions to market-ready products.

Carmine Denisco [02:50]: "We cover everything from sports products to medical products... most of the things we take in are new or first-to-market ideas."

4. Patents Across Different Industries

The conversation delves into how IP and patent strategies differ between highly technical fields like medical devices and consumer goods. Carmine explains that the complexity and investment in certain sectors necessitate a more robust IP approach.

Carmine Denisco [04:08]: "When you're making a medical device... you have to make sure that the IP and each component is very well protected."

5. Emotional Journey of Filing Patents

Carmine addresses the emotional challenges inventors face during the patenting process, describing it as an "emotional roller coaster." He advises inventors to remain resilient and focused, viewing imitation as a sign of success.

Carmine Denisco [06:45]: "It's super delicate, it's super scary... you have to look at it as I have secured the market, I'm making money."

6. Strategies to Handle Imitators

Emphasizing proactive strategies, Carmine advises inventors to improve their products continually rather than trying to prevent others from copying them. By enhancing quality, pricing, and branding, inventors can outpace imitators.

Carmine Denisco [08:33]: "Just stay ahead of it... make a better product, better price, better branding."

7. Provisional Patents and Filing Tactics

Carmine introduces the concept of provisional patents as a cost-effective way to secure an early filing date. He explains how provisional patents can be used dynamically as products evolve, providing continuous protection without the immediate expense of full patents.

Carmine Denisco [09:09]: "A provisional patent is like holding your spot in line... you can file another provisional patent because it changed."

8. Navigating Patent Litigation and Costs

The discussion highlights the high costs associated with enforcing patents, citing cases where litigation expenses can exceed millions. Carmine advises inventors to weigh the costs and benefits of legal action versus strengthening their market position through superior offerings.

Carmine Denisco [15:19]: "Stopping someone from copying you with your patent is very costly... upwards of $100,000 just to get started with a patent court."

9. Global IP Protection and Challenges

Carmine touches on the complexities of protecting IP internationally, particularly in regions like China. He stresses the importance of building trust with manufacturers and leveraging platforms like Alibaba.com to find reputable partners.

Carmine Denisco [24:44]: "China is one of the strictest countries... you have to work with trusted people."

10. Building Trust with Manufacturers

Carmine advises on the delicate nature of sharing IP with manufacturers. He recommends establishing long-term relationships with trusted factories and utilizing platforms that vet suppliers effectively to minimize risks of IP theft.

Carmine Denisco [25:50]: "Use trusted people... Alibaba does an awesome job of filtering out bad guys and making you feel comfortable."

11. Scaling Your Business with IP

Discussing business growth, Carmine explains how a strong IP base can facilitate scaling by enabling product line expansion and attracting investors. He outlines strategies for leveraging IP to create a portfolio that supports business expansion.

Carmine Denisco [30:59]: "If you have a product that is scalable... you could license that patent out to other companies."

12. Future of Intellectual Property

Looking ahead, Carmine anticipates a faster patenting process and a greater emphasis on design patents due to their quicker issuance and ease of enforcement, especially on platforms like Amazon.

Carmine Denisco [34:56]: "Design patents are going to be very important in the future... they are faster, they're easier to explain."

13. Available Resources and Support

Carmine highlights various programs and organizations that assist inventors in securing IP, including government grants, educational institutions, and international bodies like the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO).

Carmine Denisco [33:37]: "There are many programs out there... local colleges might want to take on that idea, get a grant and patent it."

14. Leveraging Social Media as an Enforcement Tool

Carmine points out that social media serves as an additional layer of protection by holding manufacturers accountable through public reputation management, encouraging them to adhere to IP agreements.

Carmine Denisco [28:59]: "Social media, when used the right way, it really helps people that in other ways wouldn't have any recourse."

15. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Carmine wraps up by reiterating the importance of understanding IP as a strategic tool rather than a sole protective measure. He encourages inventors to educate themselves, utilize available resources, and build strong, trust-based relationships within the industry.

Carmine Denisco [36:45]: "Do your research, do your homework and talk to people like you who know what's going on in this world."

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Key Takeaways:

• Proactive IP Management: Utilize provisional patents to secure early filing dates and adapt as products evolve.
• Strategic Enforcement: Weigh the costs of litigation against strengthening market presence through quality and branding.
• Trusted Partnerships: Build long-term relationships with reputable manufacturers to safeguard IP.
• Scalable IP Strategies: Develop a robust IP portfolio to facilitate business expansion and attract investors.
• Future Trends: Embrace the growing importance of design patents and faster patenting processes.
• Leverage Social Media: Use public platforms to enforce IP agreements and maintain manufacturing accountability.

Resources Mentioned:

• United Inventors Association: uiaUSA.org
• World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO): wipo.int

For more insights and strategies on growing your business, tune into future episodes of the B2B Breakthrough Podcast.

Transcript

[Carmine Danisko]

Don't let fear stop you from moving forward. If you are successful, someone wants to copy you, but you have to look at it as like, I have secured the market, I'm making money, I'm selling my product. And don't let those what I call, you know, followers or fast followers worry. Just put it in your head someone's going to copy me. And don't try to stop it. Just stay ahead of it. And that's how you really can calm those nerves and move forward with your business.

[Sierra Christo]

This welcome to the B2B Breakthrough Podcast. We're here to bring you all the best knowledge, insights and strategies from e commerce experts, successful business owners, and the [e-mail] that you'll need to grow your business and achieve your next big breakthrough. I'm your host, Sierra Christo.

[Carmine Danisko]

Today we've got an awesome guest and good friend of ours, Carmine Danisko on the show. He's an entrepreneur and product development specialist who's helped countless inventors take their ideas from sketch to shelf. Whether it's nailing down patents, avoiding manufacturing headaches, or just figuring out where to start, Carmine's got the insider knowledge to make it happen. But today we're talking all things IP and breaking down his best advice for protecting your work and turning big ideas into real products. Carmine, welcome to the show.

What's happening? I love it. That was a great intro. I was wondering who you were talking about.

Oh, no. You got the goods, man. We're excited to chat with you.

Oh, thank you so much. It's great to be here. I love your show. I follow it. Really, really good guests you guys have on, so I'm honored to hear it.

Can you start us off by just kind of explaining what the basics of intellectual property are for folks who are just getting into the inventing space and want to make sure that they're on the right foot to get this underway.

Yeah, I mean, I'll go over real quick and it's. That's a great question for, you know, a lot of people, like you said, they hear patents. Patenting has really changed the whole atmosphere of inventing over the years. Whereas it was nice to have a patent, but now companies really that want to take on your product or have put it on the shelves or manufacture it or sell it on, they really want you to have some kind of IP protection or at least prove that you're allowed to sell that product to them. And that's really what intellectual property is, is super important to be used as a tool in the right Place at the right time. And it's really just saying that, hey, listen, I have the rights to this idea, this design, this product, this logo, whatever that is. So, yeah, it's really just giving you the right to be able to sell or own or distribute in a sense, and make money off your idea.

I know that you work with a lot of small business owners, inventors and folks in this space. Can you talk to us a little bit about the kind of clientele and partners that you work with in your world that this information is really beneficial for?

Yes, as you know, the invention, innovation, the product world is so vast and it covers so many different spectrums and markets that what we do is, you know, we take products that cover all that we do everything from sports products to medical products to health products, different types of things, home tools. We cover a broad spectrum of different products. Most of the things we take in or create are new or invention or first to market ideas. Or it could be what I call Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. We take chocolate and peanut butter. We put them together. I mean, Reese's did it, you know, develop that. You just put it together and they make money. So a lot of the ideas are, you know, junctures or connections or putting products together to make another product, which sometimes is a great way to get started, that people have an idea for an invention, you'll come to us and we try to help it make it a reality.

Can you explain a little bit how that, how the conversation around patents and IP varies when you move from something as highly technical as medical devices or anything in the health care world versus a consumer good or sporting equipment. How, how do those conversations change depending on the kind of product you're looking at?

And they change drastically. You know, a lot of times when you're making a medical device, you know, you're right. I mean, you have to make sure that the IP and, and each component is very well protected. And a lot of times they have what's called a family of ip, which you have a patent that covers three or four other patents and things like that. Because in the medical field, very expensive and there's a lot of money out there. What I always try to talk to potential clients or inventors about is to use intellectual property as a tool, because if you don't need it yet, then there's no reason to get that started. Many times as an inventor, we ask our neighbor advice. I have this idea, what should I do next? Or yes, you know, you, if you ask a patent attorney, hey, what should I do next they're going to say a patent or they're going to say IP protection. There's nothing wrong with what they're saying, but that's what they do. So if I go to a dentist and I tell them my foot hurts, he's going to work on my teeth. You really should look at intellectual property as when, why and where it's needed. If I have an invention and I'm going through that invention and manufacturing and design process and I patent my first idea, my first design, it's probably going to change before it gets to market. So it's really great idea to talk with somebody who actually knows, has taken products to market as when you should insert that intellectual protection because it is needed, big proportionate of, of intellectual property, but at the right time, in the right place and utilize it as a tool to protect your ideas. But you know, as, as, you know, sometimes ideas and, and products move so fast, like clothing or, or products that go on the shelf, or ideas or even toys sometimes that by the time you try to get your patent published, you're into the next version or the third version or, you know, so, or it's out of style. So again, that's why you really need to talk with people that know.

Yeah, I mean, and part of that lead up to it is, is really scary. So I mean, if, if, if you're talking about, you know, how to time it right, how to take that next step and, and get the legal bit sorted and what is that emotional component for the folks that you work with when it comes to, like, I'm working on it, I'm developing, I'm tweaking, I shouldn't be getting patented yet, but is this safe? Am I okay to talk to people about this? How is that experience just in, in your own life, anecdotally, just in that development phase, when does that fear kind of take root?

Yeah, you know, it's super delicate, it's super scary. We laugh, we cry. It's a very emotional roller coaster. When we're taking our ideas, we're not only putting them out in the world, we're worried about somebody taking, we're worried somebody's going to like our idea or not like our idea. That's why it's very tough to just all of a sudden just bite the bullet and say, what's that next step? And when we're going for intellectual property in that route, that alone is very emotional because it could take a year, it could take seven years to get that patent because you're going back and forth with the inspectors, you're going back and forth with your patent attorney and you're making changes, you're making adjustments. So again, you really need to be able to soak that in and know that whilst that patent is in there, whilst you're doing that more frequently and more precise for moving forward. And so you know this, if you are successful, someone wants to copy you. It's kind of cool in a way because if I'm selling millions of units of a widget and my widget is square, they're going to make around one, they're going to. It's. But you have to look at it as like I have secured the market, I'm making money, I'm selling my product. And don't let those, what I call, you know, followers or fast followers worry. Just put in your head someone's going to copy me and, and don't try to stop it, just stay ahead of it. And that's how you really can calm those nerves and move forward with your business ideas. And also we are linked, stopping the copycats instead of making the better version and moving forward because you're not going to stop them. You just have to make a better product, better price, better branding and you.

Could beat them totally. And you have that benefit of, of the hard work behind you. You have the documentation now does, is that factored in when you start those conversations with patent attorneys and, and lawyers or anything in that process, is that factored in as you apply for your patent show documenting that this is an original thought. And I have all of this experience all of these years or months, whatever you've put into it, does that, does that come into the conversation or is, or does your competition, this, this person who's copying you, do they have a leg to stand on if they try to beat you to it?

We are in a first to file market. Meaning that if I have my idea and I'm working on it for years, but I just haven't filed and somebody thinks of it, the next day they file. That is their idea because they first to file. We are in a first to file system and that's just how it is. I mean, you know, it changed the laws changed about 2012, I think it was. And it was where you could prove if you, if you had that idea and you're working on for multiple years and somebody filed and you can prove that you thought of it, you, you could have a leg to stand up. But now first to file done is just. Yeah, so, so there's a lot of ways to really help yourself do that. And a lot of people don't know about what's called a provisional patent. If you really have that idea and you're moving forward on it and you're spending some money, spending some time, if you're throwing resources at it, there's nothing wrong with putting in that provisional patent. You could do it online at the patent trademark office. And it kind of like, you know, locks in your, it's like you and I are going to the movies here. And I said, hey, I'm going to the bathroom, hold my spot. It's just holding your spot in line, you know, and it's saying, you thought of this first, you filed first. And here's the other thing about it is you, your, your product is going to change over time. So using that provisional patent as a tool, not getting that full patent, just filing that provisional patent is really a great way to make sure that as your product changes or going through versions, you can file it. If your product changes, you can file another provisional patent because it changed. Why not, you know, file a provisional patent? So again, using it as a tool is very, very important. And not using fear to drive you.

So these are, there's two concepts here that are a little bit at odds and this feeling like you don't want to rush it, you know, make sure that you've thought it through. But also you gotta be the first to file. So. So you're scaring me now and I don't even have an idea that I'm trying to bring to market. So I can imagine the emotion behind this. Yeah, so what is like a green flag to you as you're ideating and saying, you know what, now's the time for provisional. Now is the time to make some kind of step forward of protecting this is. Is there. I know you said it could be a year, it could be seven years. What is that instinct, that sign that it's time to press go?

Well, the great part about it is that before you're going to show it, I've had products that we've taken on HSN and qvc. I have filed a provisional patent the day before it went on television, like, I mean, or that night. As long as we file that, it's ready to go. So before you're going to go public with your product, big time public, if you're going to start really pushing it out there, you could file that provisional patent for under $100 and be able to now publicly disclose it. And you are first in line. So you can do that. And you get to say it is patent pending. As soon as you do that, you don't have to say it's a provisional patent. You get to say this product is patent pending. And it's again, a great tool to deter people who might be like, wow, the great part about staying in patent pending status is that people won't know your special sauce, meaning that they don't know what you're patenting because they don't see it on the Patent and Trademark Office website. In patent pending status, your idea does not become public knowledge. So you want to be able to. People rush to get their patent. But I would rather keep my ideas in patent pending status as long as possible because then no one knows what I'm actually patenting. They'd be crazy to copy my idea, not knowing what my patent is going to say.

Interesting. And so in that example, what I'm, how I'm making sense of it is I'm going to use a very basic example here. Let's say I'm reinventing the umbrella and it's visually very easy to understand, but the mechanism to make it, you know, the spring load to lock into place all of that detail. That's, that's the patent. That's, that's the piece that makes this whole thing work. And that's the piece that they don't have access to on the US Patent Office website. Whereas they could see your product and say, oh, this is this great product that keeps, keeps me dry in a, in a thunderstorm. But they don't understand how, how it actually physically works. So that's, that's the benefit of, of keeping it under wraps.

Yes, that's correct. That's the benefit of staying in that, in that process. That the patent has not gone public yet. It has not been authorized. It hasn't been okay. Because as soon as that, that patent is okay, it goes public and then they can open up that patent. They could see all the drawings, they could see how it works. You have to disclose you're talking about how it works. So if you keep it in patent pending status for as long as possible, you know, it gives you that head start. So if you, Sarah, are selling your product for a year, you had your provisional patent or you filed your patent, but it hasn't been authorized yet, which is cool because it doesn't matter. You have put your patent in, so you're ahead of the game. No one can see what that special sauce is. So you could be selling your product for two or three years. Lock in that market share, you know, perfect how the product is made and also be selling it, you know, to store. That would be crazy to jump in and try to beat you because you have branding, you have the product and you're selling it. It is. No, I can't jump in and try to beat you unless you're making that umbrella for a dollar and you're selling it for $200. Now I can jump in and sell one for $50. So if you have a good price, you have good quality product and you're ahead with the branding, there's no way somebody's going to try to jump in and make a copycat. They'd be crazy.

And they don't have the instruction manual to create a credible dupe.

They'll go somewhere else, they're going to find somebody else to copy.

Do you have any examples of setbacks that people have experienced in this process, be it a provisional patent or a fully patented product? Any examples where things just either got delayed or, or derailed in the process?

Yeah, there's, there's a lot of them out there. One of the biggest, biggest things that we run into is that inventors depend on the patented trademark office to be the patent police. And they're, they're not. They just say, we're patenting your idea. We're going to file this paperwork. And they don't realize that it's very costly to stop someone from copying you. To stop someone from copying you with your patent is very costly. And it's upwards of $100,000 just to get started with a patent court. Whereas if you do it the right way and maintain and sell your product and keep a good price and good quality and try to stop those copycats without having to, you know, put your patent as a shield, it is much easier in the long run. Now, of course, we have people that are going to copy your product. We already mentioned that. And, you know, several of my friends, even some really big toy manufacturers, even the gentleman that made, I don't know if you ever saw the product. You know, as soon as his product hit the market, he was copied and he had three patents. The patents were great. And it cost him over $30 million to go after this person, this company that copied his product. He won, and it got $23 million back and he won. So if I'm going to spend $30 million, I'm going to go, go on a beach in Tahiti because that's my money, you know, so that's just an extreme, obviously, example, but you really have to think about your strategy. If somebody copies you, am I going to use the patent office, the federal court to go after somebody or does it make sense just to beat them with price and quality and branding? Because again, a lot of people feel that if they have that, that patent, that's all they need and it's just, it's just not true. Again, IP is important. I don't want to discourage people from getting it, but you can't use it as a shield. You know, there's a lot more to a patent and a patent infringement case than people know.

Wow, that's. That is a startling case study.

Yeah, yeah. It's not the patent trademark officer's fault. They do a great job. I know all the people at uspto, it's just, you know, the bad guys, they just find those gaps, they find those holes in the system and they, they try to beat you. So there's a lot of other ways to protect your idea. Again, IP is important, especially if you're going to license or sell your idea down the road. You want to have that IP intellectual property, you just want to have that, but don't rely on it. Is what I mean?

[Sierra Christo]

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[Carmine Danisko]

Now. I mean, another piece that you just mentioned here is either sell it down the road or if you're looking for investors, you're looking to expand. Having this IP in place is, is incredibly attractive to an investor, I would imagine.

You're, you're right. So if you're thinking of licensing or if you're thinking of Selling your company or whatever, it's a different way or a different approach. So yes, investors might want you to have intellectual property. I have sold products, I have sold companies that had products involved. And what I found was were happy that I had a patent, but then they patent it to themselves with their own attorneys because they didn't trust how my patents were worded. They were happy that I had the patent, but because they were going to be putting their money into this product, they said, hey, we got our own attorneys, we're going to write our own patents also. So a lot of times you could have, hey, I got three patents on this product. Would you want to buy it? It's not as impressive to some of these companies as I have the one patent. They're like, cool, because they may repatent it because again, they have their own attorneys, their own verbiage. So again, it's, it's a whole strategy, it's a whole sequence of events that again, I'll say talk to someone that knows. Because this gets so, it gets so crazy and intricate that you want to start off as slow as you can so that you don't, I don't want to say mistakes, but just their missteps that you can avoid. And I tell you what, you can make a lot more money if you do it the right way, a lot faster, quicker to market, depending on what you want to do.

So you're able to hold a patent on your product. And if you are selling or have an investor and they want to repatent it, what does repatenting entail? Are we talking about the same mechanism, the same part of your product, or are they taking it from different angle? How does, how can multiple patents exist for the same product?

Yeah, so the great question, because actually they can't in a way. So as soon as you, you sign your product over to a company, that means you're signing the patents over, they can replace those patents. So they'll, they'll. It's just like any, any law or anything. There's always holes in it. There's no law or no patent is perfect. Think about this. And my intellectual property friends lawyers are going to kill me. Intellectual property attorneys, what do they do? They get around other patents. It's what they do. I mean, because again, when you see that prior art, they show a list of prior art. There's patents out there that cover what you're doing. They just change the verbiage and they get around those existing patents. It's what attorneys in most cases do. There's nothing wrong with that, they're just smart. So there's always an attorney that's going to get around your patent. So they want to have their attorneys write a patent that can't get around that patent. So it's just a game that they play, but they feel better that their own attorneys did it.

Got it.

Not saying that they will do it, but I've had product that I've sold or companies that I've sold or licensed that those things happen. So that's why a lot of times if you're planning on selling your product or licensing it, you know, just do the minimal. Most likely that company is going either repattent or just pay for, strictly pay for a family of patents if they believe in the product that.

Well now you've, you've mentioned paying for the family of patents. There's got to be a cost effectiveness conversation as part of this. So what does it actually cost to get this done and what are, what are ways to, to find those efficiencies to make your business more sustainable in the long run?

There's so much to it that every, every product, every situation should really be looked at separately. So I want people to know why I'm talking about this. This is general things, what we're talking about. Each patent could cost upwards of 3, 10, 15, $20,000 maybe. You know, it depends on the product really how much it could cost. But here's the worst part about all of that is there's maintenance fees on each patent. So if you have a patent in 10 different countries, you have 10 patents every month. You're paying maintenance fees now. You don't pay the maintenance fees, your patent goes away. So it's just, it's a never ending process and just keeping track of all those patents, you know, is a lot. So if you're really not thinking about selling your product worldwide, really rethink getting those worldwide patents. And just remember that the US is the market to sell your product. If somebody wants to copy you and sell your product in Europe, let them sell it. You know, we, we always want to stop everything and control everything, but if we can just sell in the US and we're successful, it's going to kill those copycats because after they find out or somebody in Europe is going to see that product in the US they're going to buy from Amazon off the US So let those other people try to copy you. Just do a good job here in the US and everyone would be so much better off. But there's a lot of things that people don't realize about patents, that, you know, maybe their patent attorney's not giving them the full picture. Most good attorneys will. They're going to tell them, these are the fees. This is what's happening. You know, somebody goes after your product. Now we got to hire an attorney in Europe to go after them, you know, because everybody thinks they send a cease and desist. A cease and desist letter is not a legal document. You're basically sending a letter saying, please stop copying me. And that's, that's what you're saying. I mean, and sure, that does this for a living, that it goes, you know, what the heck is that? It's not that. So you really have to go after them. And it costs money, especially when you're in another country.

We've had a lot of conversations with small business owners about finding their right audience and segmenting from, from a branding perspective, from a sales channel perspective. But adding this, this additional layer in of, of talking about where to protect it is huge. And it doesn't hurt to know this information ahead of time before engaging in a conversation with your patent attorney.

Very important. You're 100%, you know, and not to jump ahead or anything, but, but a lot of times, and I have this conversation with people all the time about companies in China. And you know, China is one of the strictest countries that I know of, that if they find someone, the Chinese government finds someone copying a product, there are pissed and they really go after them. And a lot of times, a lot of people around the world don't realize that. And most times when products get copied, it's somewhat outside of China, buying the product, sending it there to make it. And the factory is, I don't want to say harmless, but they don't know that they're copying a product.

So how do you engage in that conversation with a supplier saying, you know, this is a, this is a product that I have protections on in the U.S. can I trust you to not do this, you know, with another manufacturer also from the US Maybe there's nothing stopping them from an Australian business owner coming to them. But how, how does that conversation go? And, and is there any, are there any protections in your relationship with your supplier to just nip it in the bud?

Super delicate conversation, but it should be done. And you have to work with trusted people. Alibaba does an awesome job of going through their suppliers and finding trusted people. Just like I have manufacturers and factories that I've been working with for years. And I've never Had a problem with them. I trust them, they trust me. You ha. You can't just throw a rock and hit a factory and say I'm going to give this factory all of my influx of property. You have to use the right people. Just like with your patent and your manufacturer, all of it has to be done correctly and 100%. A lot of times when things happen, it's just because we were in a rush, we thought we knew we're using the wrong person again. Alibaba does an awesome job at really filtering out what's happening in bad guys and making you feel comfortable. Alibaba does some pretty cool things with. You could go through funds with them and you could do things. That's why you need to feel comfortable with who you use. So you have to be careful. We, we just have to think smart. Know there's bad guys everywhere. Not just in China, not in the US there's bad guys everywhere and avoid them and do things right.

Yeah. Just because they can do it doesn't mean they're the ones to do it. I've had conversations with small business owners who have developed an idea alongside their manufacturer, who helped them in the prototyping stage and just developing the idea, who now share IP on a product. Have you engaged either personally with a manufacturer in a relationship like this or have you coached anyone through a process where they shared the IP on a product?

That is such a great option for people, they have to be open minded. But that is a great option if you don't have, you know, you don't have the time, you don't have the resources, you don't have the funds, whatever that reason is. Finding a factory that's open to innovation, that wants to have a new product on the market is a great way to do that. It really is. Because otherwise most likely you're going to throw that product in this closet and it's never going to see light of day. Whereas we have factories and we have people in wholesalers that are constantly connecting with us saying hey, you know, we're doing some pickleball products. Anything related to pickleball send to us first. So when somebody says I have this cool idea for a new paddle, I just don't have the money, you know, and, And I understand 100 I say, hey, is it okay if we do this? We, we sign a non disclosure, we share it with the factory, the wholesaler and if they like it, you're off to the races and everyone's happy that way. So Sierra, that's an awesome way to get products in the market. Who better that they're already making products to meet up with. But you can't be fearful. A lot of people say they could copy my product. Yes, they could copy your product, but they don't want to have the headache with the Internet and reviews and all these different social media sites, many factories, many wholesale. They do not want to do anything where they're going to get, you know, a bad name. So I really love how social media has, has really helped people to their word because they're worried about bad reviews or worried about something happening. And not that they need that, but it's always there, lingering. So it helps.

Social media as an enforcer, I like it. That's really great.

It's important that I don't want to say people are scared of it, but it really, it really makes people do what they say. I think that social media, when used the right way in that sense, it really helps people that in other ways wouldn't have any recourse.

Yeah, it's a huge asset. And it goes back to what you were saying earlier. IPs are the most legal, official way to protect your product. You know, get your patent, definitely huge benefit. But there are other ways to reinforce that and like you said, beating your competition on branding. So what are the other tools in your arsenal to help reinforce that ip? Outside of the legal world?

Having a good quality product is so important these days. I mean, people really expect the product to perform. You know, a lot of times they think about price, but price is secondary these days, depending on the product. Apple is a perfect example. They suck you in with one of their products. They have all these different products, but once you get one in your hand, they all work so well that you can't help but getting the others. So very important. You have a quality product at a good price and your product does what it's supposed to. And that's a real great way to stop copy counters because they can't do it for the same price. They have to cut corners somehow. No matter what it is, they are going to cut corners. It could be the packaging, it could be the design, it could be the functionality, but people are going to know that, that, that is not a high quality product. Sure, they might buy it once, but they're going to go, man, this isn't it. This is, I have fallen for that. I mean, everyone does. You buy a product, you're like, what is this? You know, so, so you can't be fearful though. You have to know that your strategy is going to work. You have to stick with it. Sure, modify here and there, but sticking with that strategy of branding, good quality and good price is just so important.

I wanted to talk to you about scaling as well because you know, as we, you just mentioned Apple and having this huge suite of products that are, that are interconnected and work well together. So how does having a strong IP help in that scaling conversation when it comes to either expanding your product line or as we've already discussed, seeking investors?

Yeah, great question. Again, that whole strategy really comes into play and a lot of us inventors, we're not really business people, we just like making things and, and so sometimes it's hard for us to put that strategy on paper and really think it out. Cause we just want to make it. You know, I want to run in my garage and make this idea and then I'm like, and everybody's like, what about the business aspect? And you're like, what the hell? You know, it doesn't matter. So, so depending on what you want to do and if you, if you have a product, like you mentioned, an umbrella, but in reality that umbrella could really turn into a whole family of products. You know, you call it the umbrella and then you have the case and then you have the unjacket or whatever you wanted to do. So having that base patent that kind of covers your technology, say maybe you developed a material that really repels water. Now that material can be used on many different things. Not only can you create a whole bunch of products, but you could license that patent out to other companies who could white label it and you could get paid from those companies to utilize that material, that technology. So there's a lot of ways to really scale a company. If you have a product that is scalable, some aren't. So that's when you said, well, would a provisional patent be good enough? This product is only going to be, have a shelf life of one year anyway. Why get a patent, you know. But if you know your product's going to have versions, then you could get that base patent and have those versions as you add on. But just get somebody that can help you with that strategy, with that business side. Because that's really important. Because believe it or not, every inventor, as soon as they sell their product now they're a business owner whether they want to be or not.

It sounds like, you know, part of scaling your business. Yeah, you're growing, you're bringing in more profits, but it's also kind of dwarfing the, the cost of your, your patent at the End of the day, if it is covering a whole family of products and it kind of justifies the maintenance fees that you're going to be looking at over time.

Yeah, 100%. You're, you, you hit it right on.

The head as we talk about like the cost burden of, of getting your protections in place. Are there government programs in place or grants, scholarships of some sort that help you, help it be just a little bit more approachable and attainable for someone in the early stages of launching a product?

Yes, and I'm glad you brought that up. There are many programs out there, especially for lower income. Inclusive innovation. I'm actually on the President's Committee for Inclusive Innovation. I go into wipo, which is the World Intellectual Property Organization. All of these organizations are basically there to help with getting patents or helping with funding or getting grants and things like that. You can even go to sometimes some of the local colleges, they might want to take on that idea, get a grant and patent it. You know, many colleges love technology. They love having their students work on ideas that are unachievable for one person and things like that. So there's a lot of ways, and I'm glad you brought that up, to really move your idea forward to, to work on your idea, to get it out in the market without really just saying, my God, it's is just way too big for me. It's never going to see the light day. So there are there, there's many programs out there.

We're coming up on time a little bit here. So I want to, I want to skip to the future. I want to put our forecasting hats on. What do you see as the future of intellectual property? Is there anything that you should be aware of, you know, on the horizon in the Next, let's say five to 10 years in terms of, of how to, to protect your, your brand in the best way possible as, as the market continues to get more and more congested.

Yes, I think that as we as a society move faster, quicker, bigger, we want new products. Like just buying a product, you want something new next year, then that version. I think patents will still be needed, but I think that we will want those patents to move quicker. And I tell you what, design patents are going to be very important in the future because not only are they less technical, but you can get them quicker. So I, I talk to a lot of Amazon personnel there. When we have a product being copied on Amazon, say, and if I have a design patent, I could send them that patent, they see the picture and they look and they go, yeah, that guy's copying you. And they take it off. But if I send them a technical patent that's this thick, a utility patent, they are not going to go look through it because they just can't understand it. So design patents you can get much quicker, they're faster, they're easier to explain. So if you can go within a design patent at first, if it covers you, I think there is going to be a little bit faster in the future. Again, I think that the whole patenting process is going to have to move quicker or we're going to say, listen, I'm going to be updating this product every year. I don't really need a patent, you know, because if somebody wants to copy me, they're going to be two versions behind. So there's, I think that people as a whole are getting smarter and our product developers are getting very smart. With all the education that like you're supplying with that's available out in the world, we're starting to say, I do want a patent, but I don't have to wait for it. I'm going to start selling, I'm going to move quickly, I'm going to have a great product. And you know what, if they want to copy me, you know, be behind me, Go right ahead.

Awesome. I mean, we didn't even get into the different kind of patents, so that's, that's, oh my gosh, there's so much more here that we can dig into. But I'm like, oh my God, design patents. We have to talk about design patents.

I told you I could talk all day about stuff.

Wow, okay. I mean, I think, I think that's a great note to kind of land on here. I mean, utility versus design. Do your research, do your homework and talk to people like you who know what's, what's going on in this world.

And again, use Alibaba. They're awesome. And it's not just because you guys are doing this. The amount of information I talk to the Alibaba IP department, I don't think people realize how important Alibaba treats intellectual property. And that's something that should really talk about because you guys have an insane intellectual property department.

Maybe we need a, we're due for a follow up episode. We'll talk more about the nitty gritty and how we can support as well. But I think this was a really helpful foundational conversation, especially for first timers. This is huge.

I hope so, I hope, I hope so. Very important to know. So I think you're right, Jerry. You're very important to know.

Awesome. Well, where can folks find you? Where can we learn more about ip? Learn more about the United Inventors Association. Talk to us.

Sure. They can find me on all the social media platforms. I don't know how they work. I have people doing that stuff for me. You can also join the United vendors association@uia USA.org it's free to join and you can, you can email me from there. I'll be certain to get back to you if you do have some questions. I love answering questions. We try to help as many people as possible. It might take me a day or two to get back or one of us to get back, but any questions that people have, I implore them to ask before they go and spend the time, money and resources.

Awesome. You are so helpful. All of these resources are so helpful. You're the man, Carmine. Thank you for chatting with us.

Anytime. I love it.

[Sierra Christo]

B2B Breakthrough is produced by Alibaba.com to find out how Alibaba.com is empowering its customers with the tools, services and resources they need to grow their business. Visit Alibaba.com and then make sure to search for B2B Breakthrough on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find your podcasts. Make sure to follow us so you don't miss future episodes. On behalf of the team [e-mail], thanks for listening.