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- [00:00]
A
It's going to be a long time before robots are selling the robots at an enterprise complicated sale. So I think those that can combine the efficiency of AI with the personalization and humanity of human to human connection, those are the companies that are going to win.
- [00:18]
B
The B2B Marketing Exchange brings together B2B marketing and sales practitioners from across the country to get the latest tools and tips they need to succeed. Now we're bringing the insights from this stage to your ears. I'm Claudia Tirico. And I'm Kelly Lynn. And this is the B2B Marketing Exchange podcast. Hello, everyone, and welcome Back to the B2BMX podcast. I am here with Mr. Matt Hines, President and founder of Heinz Marketing and probably one of the biggest sales and marketing influencers in the space. And lucky for us, Matt will be taking the stage at B2BMX in Scottsdale in just a few weeks. So it was only right to have him come on the show to get everybody hyped up for the. Matt, hello. Welcome.
- [01:05]
A
Well, thanks so much for having me, Kali. I'm excited to be here and super excited to be going to B2BMX this year.
- [01:11]
B
Yeah, I mean, you're pretty much a veteran of B2BMX. You've been attending and speaking at the event for, I mean, as long as I could remember, and I think it was even before it was B2BMX. We had, you know, the content to conversion conference. Then obviously it all expanded. So you're actually one of the first few people I even met at B2BMX when I first came on the scene as just the little old associate editor of Demand Gen Report. So look how far we've come, huh?
- [01:36]
A
Well, I think this means either that means we've been around for a while, we're getting old, or I don't know what that means, but I think the. Yeah, it was content to conversion when I first attended. And I remember first hearing about it, like some people when I just got it, you know, sort of put up my shingle, got sort of started to grow my business, talked to a lot of people that were beginning of the year coming off of this conference. They were raving about, I'm like, where were you? And they're like, oh, you got to go, you got to go. So I started attending and it's just, it's usually the beginning of the year. It's usually one of the first sort of bigger industry events of the year. And I just love it. I mean, now that especially it's in Scottsdale, coming from Seattle Get a little sunshine. But more importantly, just the people, the content, the way you guys organize the event and keep it fresh every year. I can't wait.
- [02:20]
B
Awesome. I'm so happy to hear that and we're so lucky and excited to have you. But before we kind of get into this conversation, for those who are listening, who may not know, Matt Hines, tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in this crazy world of marketing, business development and sales.
- [02:38]
A
Yeah, crazy world indeed. So I've been doing B2B sales and marketing, go to market for most of my career. About 16 plus years ago, decided to quit my job and try to do my own thing. And what started is just, you know, me and a laptop and a bus pass. Got a handful of people now and working with companies across the globe, just mostly around helping those with long complex sales processes create more predictable pipeline. A lot easier said than done. And it seems like it's getting harder as there's more and more tools, as the buying committees get longer and bigger, as the noise factor out there gets higher. Figuring out how to create some predictability and scalability of your pipeline is just critically important for success.
- [03:19]
B
Yeah, definitely. And you will 100% be diving into all of that at B2BMX and we will dive into a little bit of that today. But before we kind of do that as an influencer in the space and since the year has kind of just kicked off. Right. What are some of the top trends and priorities that you're seeing in B2B marketing and sales for 2025?
- [03:40]
A
Well, I'll give you the easy answer and then I'll give you the answer I don't hear often enough. The easy answer is AI. You know, just that I think we are past experimentation and I see so many companies now incorporating AI workflows into their go to market functions. It's augmenting and enhancing the work that has been done more manually and with other tools. But I'm seeing it increase net new pipeline production. I'm seeing an increased efficiency of content development. I'm seeing companies use AI and custom GPTs to create basically in house Personas that are a focus group whenever you need it. And just the applications are enormous and growing. And so I think it is now a daily part of the rhythm of how go to market teams operate on the marketing and the sales and the CS side. Definitely a little more of that we're going to get into in my session. I think the piece that is, I wish more companies would focus on is I guess if I Just summarize it in one word, Cloudy. It'd be dysfunction. We all have dysfunction in our organizations and as we address more complexity buying journey in the buying committee and how we need to collaborate internally around getting that work done, too often that exposes a high level of dysfunction that requires some change management, some culture management, some better work management habits and strategies that can unlock greater productivity, greater speed to market, greater agility that I think that a lot of companies are yearning for right now and aren't really sure how to address.
- [05:02]
B
Very interesting. And yeah, definitely don't hear that word often. I mean we obviously hear AI a lot. But that's a really great point regarding dysfunction. And obviously demand generation has always been a key topic or theme at our events at B2BMX, we have an entire track dedicated to it. What are some common challenges currently facing modern B2B marketers when it comes to really reaching their demand gen goals?
- [05:28]
A
Some of it comes down to sort of where you focus. It's amazing, Cloudy, as we record this in late January 2025, we're a couple of days away from actual Groundhog Day. But I've been thinking about this a lot this week where like you said, like who's in the White House, who's in the Super Bowl? And so I mean we got the same like it feels like we're in the same companies are focused on MQLs as their primary marketing metric. And I got a buddy, Kerry Cunningham, who calls this the MQL industrial complex. Somehow we have institutionalized this focus on a poorly defined marketing qualified lead that in many companies is a glorified vanity metric. And so I guess the antidote to that is focusing on pipeline instead of just leads. And the best way to do that is to have greater alignment across your go to market teams on who we need to sell to, who are the people in those organizations, how best to address them at various stages of not just their buying journey, but as Brent Adamson calls it, the how do I not screw up and get fired journey inside organizations, let's be honest, like that's in the back of the mind of our buyers most of the time is not how do I get this pop open but like how do I not screw up? And so I think being able to address that holistically, being able to let go of, you know, sort of leave the altar of the MQL and address and agree on some common metrics that are more revenue centric across the entire buying journey, it's critical because if we get to that Alignment, who we're selling to, who we're talking to, what the right metrics are, the strategies and prioritizations across the go to market functions are going to fall into line.
- [07:02]
B
So why do you think that, you know, we're still struggling, like obviously alignment and all of that has been a common struggle for really long time. Why are we still battling this issue?
- [07:12]
A
For a lot of reasons. One, it's easier to measure, right? Hey, you got people to fill out a form that counts as something. We're constantly trying to sort of evaluate how is marketing providing value. And the easiest thing to measure is like form fills and MQLs. I think we also have a false sense that you can manage a complex buying journey with a simple spreadsheet. This many leads, this many opportunities, this many closed deals, and more leads is better. You know, we also know through some research from Google that only 3 to 4% of board members at B2B startups have marketing experience. Which means they may have read a book and assumed I can just make more phone calls and get more of the deals that I need and sort of marketing is coin operated, let's just have them do more lead generation. Like what if we step back and said like, I know your sales team needs more leads, I know that you want more leads, but leads is simply a manifestation of a market that craves what you're selling in. A market that craves what you're selling is not about lead gen, it's about creating and manufacturing demand in the market. Leads is a piece of that. But what are you doing to unlock that need? What are you doing to quantify the cost of a problem that your prospect may or may not have known that they had? So now all of a sudden we're talking about content, now we're talking about sales enablement. Now all of a sudden we're talking about community and other elements of word of mouth to create that groundswell of interest. Some of that can be captured through lead generation, but much of it isn't that simple. And so it's an inconvenient truth of modern pipeline development that not everything can be measured the way we wish it could. But the execution and the components of the go to market strategy still need to fall in line to align with that buying journey to be effective.
- [08:57]
B
Very interesting. And obviously your session is focusing on building that predictable pipeline in these complex markets. So how can the predictable pipeline methodology really help create stronger campaigns and programs and just stronger organizations as a whole?
- [09:13]
A
We, over the last 16 years have built this predictable pipeline system as a bedrock for companies to go and execute and we basically give it away. If you come like, and this is, this is a pitch, if you come to my session, you're going to get a copy of our new book, you're going to get a copy of our 85 page predictable pipeline playbook. Those are yours for free. It gives you all the details of what you need to do this well. How to develop your ideal customer profile, your subset of the subset of the market that really needs what you're selling. How to identify the people in the organization that have a vested interest in the problem, that need to reach consensus around a commitment to change to be successful. How do you put that in motion across your go to market systems? What do you say when, what are the tools and systems and measurements that you put in place? And how do you create an orchestration system internally to get that work done effectively, efficiently, with a greater level of agility? There's six areas there that I just kind of summarized that I think are key to that bedrock foundation of Predictable Pipeline. We're going to walk through that, all of that in this session at B2BMX.
- [10:13]
B
Awesome. I love a good pitch. I was going to save it for later, but you heard it here people, you're getting free, free stuff. He's literally going to hand you all of the tools that you need on a silver platter at the session. So you got to be there. But just out of curiosity, how do we balance the need for those short term results with long term pipeline strategies? Obviously we're in industries with these long and complex buying cycles. How do we get that balance?
- [10:43]
A
Well, it's possible. You just gotta be willing to spend money to get there, right? I mean the inconvenient truth behind the math to do that is that your best prospects to buy right now, if they don't already know you, your chances of winning them is low, right? Like your typical buyer is looking at two to four solutions. The majority of them are going to go with the first company they talk to or know about. So if you're late to the game, your chances of winning are low. But if you need to be in that late stage consideration set, just know that that's expensive, right? I mean, just go to Google and look at like, you know, keyword prices for like people searching for actual product needs. That's a late stage buying signal. It implies someone has already done their research and is looking to buy soon. Those are expensive. Go look for prices around sort of intent signals and early discovery signal keywords. They're less expensive because a lot of people aren't bidding on them because those aren't ready to buy customers. So you need immediate customers, you need a long term pipeline of customers. The best way to build long term pipeline and create some predictability and cost effective nature of that is to focus on that long term perpetual river of pipeline. But you can get the short term pipe. Just know that only 3 to 4% of customers in your market are actively looking. Know that if they don't know who you are, it's likely your prospects already, your competitors already have an advantage. Do the math accordingly and be willing to spend the money if you need them that quickly.
- [12:04]
B
Interesting. And what are some other like internal factors? I know we talked about alignment but maybe perhaps you know, technology or data management. What other internal factors are influencing the success of a a predictable pipeline strategy?
- [12:17]
A
Culture and change management is a big part of it. Right. We talked about companies that are still suffering from a the MQL industrial complex. So being willing, like having leaders that are willing to sort of make that change and manage that change not just across their marketing team but across the leadership team and the board. That is not a 30 minute meeting, that is not a kumbaya moment at sales kickoff. That's going to take some time and some effort to get that to make that change. I think it's also a matter of rethinking what's important. Important you've got a marketing team that may have been incented to drive the most leads at the lowest possible cost historically. And that might be counterproductive. What if you're willing to spend three times as much on leads from the right people at the right companies so that I don't care about mql, I care about qualified in profile pipeline. That's a lower volume at a higher quality with a higher conversion rate. Right. And so making that change from quantity to quality, making that change from a lead focus to a target account focus, that is not trivial. Countless companies have done it. But I think thinking through the change management strategy internally is going to be critical. The other piece of that that I like I mentioned earlier around dysfunction is when you lean into the complexity of modern go to market motions where we can't just send out an email, have someone fill out a form, throw it to a bdr like that's not effective today. To orchestrate the campaigns together, to orchestrate sales and marketing working together. There's a higher level of complex complexity there. It requires a greater sophistication of what we call sort of Go to market orchestration. It requires tools, systems, definitions that often don't exist today but can lead towards greater speed to market, greater results and really higher employee effectiveness and lower churn from people that are, that get frustrated from that dysfunction.
- [14:06]
B
Interesting. And you know, obviously you mentioned AI and obviously it's rising. And along with automation and data driven marketing. How do you see these technologies impacting the future of demand generation?
- [14:19]
A
Well, there's the short term and the long term. Short term is I think we're in a bit of a trough of disillusionment on the buyer and the seller side. I think. You know, I was told a year and a half ago, Claudia, that BDRs would be extinct by now. They're not. I think the BDR role is changing. I think that AI agents are doing dramatically greater work to qualify and engage early stage pipeline and early stage buyers. That's happening, but I think what's also happening is that we have AI creating more content, more outbound and it's democratizing and reducing the cost of setting that with a prospect set that has the same amount of time, if not less. And so we're flooding the zone with people with information and we're just frustrating them with more stuff. I think long term the opportunity is to do mass marketing at a one to one scale to be able to engage more of your prospects with unique custom bespoke messages, not just based on who they are, but in context of where they exist today. Right. You think about this historically with lead scoring, Lead scoring, historically with marketing automation systems, you can create a sophisticated system, but it's arbitrary and it's dumb. Arbitrary meaning like we create whatever scores we want and dumb meaning it doesn't adjust to what happens in the market in real time, either the market overall or to those individuals. AI's ability to read and react to all information at once in real time is going to completely change the game around that. Now that doesn't exist in a lot of platforms today, but over the next three to four years we're going to start to see that. And I think it's going to create a massive opportunity for marketers to lift their game.
- [15:51]
B
Are you worried about us kind of overusing AI in terms of like turning everything into just like inauthentic and not human centric?
- [16:02]
A
My flippant answer to that is no, because I know plenty of companies are. And until robots sell the robots, like the human element still matters greatly. Right? Like here's an example, like if I'm a sales rep and I need to call Someone like I want to customize my outreach to someone and Instead of spending 40 minutes doing research, deliver 20 second voicemail. What if you could have an instant evaluation of what you should be saying, not just based on someone's profile or LinkedIn or like who, what teams they root for, but based on what happened at their company yesterday, based on all the different variables in real time that you could address to not only have the right message, right time, but make it intensely personal and relevant and timely right now. But not have that delivered as an email, which is one of a thousand emails they got today. Maybe make a phone call, maybe send a text, maybe do a social. Send them something. Like what is something else that can get their attention and be more intensely relevant. So I think it's going to be a long time before robots are selling the robots at an enterprise complicated sale. So I think those that can combine the efficiency of AI with the personalization and humanity of human to human connection, those are the companies that are going to win.
- [17:10]
B
Awesome. So what else should we be preparing for? What should companies be preparing for in terms of demand gen and sales pipelines for the next few years? Is there anything that they really need to start thinking about now to just get ahead of the curve?
- [17:25]
A
Well, unfortunately I think there's. We're seeing a critical mass of companies that are already integrated sales and marketing systems. I would highly encourage more companies do the same thing on the customer success side. We're seeing some of that already happen where marketing is starting to lean in on the impact they can have on growing revenue from existing accounts. So I think that's pretty significant as part of that growth opportunity. I would also like look at places where you can lean where your customers aren't like, I mean like. Or where your prospects aren't. If your prospects are going more digital. I'm seeing so many companies leverage in person events right now. Right. I mean it's one of the reasons why BWMX is so successful. I think people look at this not only as a great place to learn, but a great place to network. I mean Claudia, I can sit here at my desk at the office and network. I got LinkedIn open, I got a phone, I can do that. But we still show up at live events. Again, why? Because those in person experiences are different. Because seeing and learning content in a different context unlocks ideas for us. Because spending 10 minutes in the lunch line with someone that has your job at a different company can give you an insight that you wouldn't otherwise have had just by collecting contacts in LinkedIn, I really do think that those that are going to win moving forward. Again, I mentioned this earlier, just that leveraging data, leveraging intent signals, leveraging AI to make yourself more efficient, to make the quality of the content better. But lean into the human side. You know, this isn't a buying journey, it's not a selling journey, it's not a sales process, it's not sales in a spreadsheet. It's people trying not to screw up. It's people trying to have an impact on their teams and their companies and the people around them. Leaning into that and what that means and what that means personally for the prospects you're engaging with is a huge opportunity.
- [19:04]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Especially just getting to know buyers in general, not just through their digital profiles, Right. Being able to see them face to face and learning more about, you know, what's going on even in their outside world, it will probably, you know, help the marketing in general, right?
- [19:21]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. And I think being able to take those insights and leverage those across your organization, being able to leverage those across channels, digital and non digital, enormous. It stands out. It shows that you're paying attention, it shows that you care about the people around you and it shows that you're taking the extra step, the extra moment to be more personal, to be more human. It makes a huge difference.
- [19:42]
B
Awesome. I'd love to talk about content a little bit because obviously you're heavily on LinkedIn. We're all sharing different, different content and learning about it. And I actually just finish with the judging committee for B2B MX. We just finished kind of choosing our killer content award winners for this year. So I'd love to hear from you, like, what type of content do you see really kind of making a splash these days? I know content. You know, we've always saying content is king, but obviously it's evolved heavily throughout the years. And that basic, heavily texted white paper doesn't really always cut it. So what are you seeing in the content space that's kind of really making you like to step back and say, wow, this is interesting and this is where content marketing is going to go in the future.
- [20:29]
A
So I'd say four things from, you know, sort of some tactical, some more strategic one is humor. And I realize humor is a little more complicated now than maybe it used to be. But I think people still, especially in B2B, I think we take ourselves too seriously. And so giving someone something with levity, I think matters and can be a difference maker. The tactical one is video. Right. I still don't think enough companies use video. Well, and I think video, I mean, so it feels easier just to write and edit something in a written format maybe. But I think video done well is good. And honestly, it doesn't mean you have to do it highly stylized or high. You don't have to sort of do tons of, you know, post production, just good LinkedIn live. Just be a good, you know, be human, be approachable. Just create video that sort of connects with someone. I think that matters. The other two are informality. Right? Just the same thing I'm mentioning around video. Just, you know, just don't take yourselves too seriously and just make something more accessible as if you're connecting with another human. As well as interactive, this is a huge one for me. Like, if I'm just consuming content, if I'm just like reading or listening or watching something, that's great, it could be great content. But how do you create something that's more interactive? Like literally, as soon as we finish this recording, we're doing a, we're doing quote unquote webinar around SKOs and it's fully interactive. Like, it's not the let's do 45 minutes of slides. It's a conversation where we are intentionally bringing in the audience to be part of that conversation as well. Like, what if you were to create content that required interaction from your prospect to complete the content, to complete the package? Like, what would that look like? What would it mean? What could they engage with that is fun, that is informative, that is interactive, that helps them understand the next step of the buying journey or don't screw up journey. So humor, video, informality, and interactivity are the four things I'd like to see more in content this year.
- [22:12]
B
Awesome. All right, so going down a little on the personal path here. What else have you been up to lately? And do you have any exciting things going on this year?
- [22:22]
A
We have a lot going on this year. You know, big year for. On a lot of fronts from a business growth standpoint, my kids continue to get older. And so candidly, I think I'm really picking my spots in terms of travel this year again, babmx obviously passes that bar and something I'm prioritizing, but I don't know, the older I get and the more mistakes I make, Claudia, the more I realize, like, you know, there's. My kids aren't getting any younger, so figuring out how to balance what I need to do at work, what I need to do to build and grow our company with what I need to do with my family as well. So there's a version of the four hour work week from Tim Ferriss I think about a lot, which is sort of those mini vacations, which is like, don't wait until the end of your life, end of your career to be retired. What are you doing now to enjoy what you have? And what are you doing now to think of success not as an end game, but success as a platform to do things that matter for your family, for your community, for those around you in need? There's elements of that that I'm excited about leaning into this year, and there's a few of those I'm looking forward to sharing as we get through the year as well.
- [23:22]
B
Yeah. And I feel like these days we need that more now than ever before. For sure.
- [23:26]
A
For sure.
- [23:27]
B
All right, so just one final, I guess, elevator pitch for your session or as someone who has attended B2BMX in the past, what are you most looking forward to at the event this year specifically? Is there any sessions that you're looking forward to checking out or. I know you've been praising the event for a lot of this conversation already, but any final thoughts?
- [23:52]
A
Oh man, I mean, there's a lot of sessions that I have earmarked that I want to be able to attend. Leslie Laura is going to talk about marketing influence. I'm super excited for her session. I think she's really unlocked a way for sales and marketing teams to align around a common nomenclature of marketing's influence on pipeline and revenue. So excited to see her do that. She's always love seeing Mason Cosby. He's so fun. He's just a great guy, scrappy abm. Just great insights out there. Just killing it. So, you know, some really great. You guys got a really great lineup of presenters, but I'll be honest, like some of my best times at events like yours is just hanging out outside, like going outside during breaks, seeing people in the hallways, connecting with folks and learning a little about what they're doing. It's a catalyst, man. I mean, you can have an email conversation or a phone call, but when you see someone in person, even just a five to seven minute conversation, it fast forwards the relationship. It fast forwards and deepens the connection you have with people. If you go to an event like this, don't assume you have to get everything out of the event itself. Take good notes, connect with people that you think are interesting, and follow up afterward. It lengthens and extends and deepens the ROI you get from great events like bwmx.
- [25:01]
B
Awesome well, thank you so much for those kind words. We're so excited to see you in Scottsdale in just a few weeks. So I know you're a busy guy, so I really appreciate you taking the time to join me for this chat today, anytime.
- [25:14]
A
Thank you for the opportunity. Look forward to seeing many of you in Scottsdale very soon.
- [25:18]
B
Yes, and yeah, of course. Thank you. Thank you all for tuning in. It is not too late to register. You could literally register the day before. But please register. You got to join us in Scottsdale. If you've never been to B2BMX before, I promise it'll be worth your time. Take advantage of our discount code. It's in the show Notes could save a little bit of money on your ticket. And as always, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss any new episode drops. Hit me up on LinkedIn if you have any feedback or guest or speaker suggestions or you just want to say hi again. I really hope to see everybody in Scottsdale. Matt, I'm so looking forward to seeing you. That is a wrap for us. Thanks again everyone and take care.