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And this is why so many ABM programs just missed the mark. You got all this data everywhere and you cannot bring it all together and say, company, ABC took these steps and now they close. And I'm patting myself on the back because I did this. And I can show that. The B2B Marketing Exchange brings together B2B marketing and sales practitioners from across the country to get the latest tools and.

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Tips they need to succeed. Now we're bringing the insights from this day to your ears.

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I'm Claudia Tirico.

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And I'm Kelly Lindenow. And this is the B2B Marketing Exchange podcast. Welcome back to another episode of the B2BMX podcast. I'm your co host Kelly Lindenau and I can't believe we're already on episode two of our 11th season. And throughout the season, we're going to be replaying and sharing new interviews from the stage and show floor of our first ever B2B Marketing Exchange east event in Alpharetta, Georgia. So. So if you tuned in last week, you were here when we introduced you to Nadia Davis of payet, who sat down with my co host Claudia inside the Marketplace at B2BMX east to dive deeper into her big keynote presentation. Her presentation was titled Mastering Revenue Driven ABM Strategies for Success. And lucky for you, we're giving Nadia a non core this week by replaying her keynote in full on today's episode. Throughout this discussion, Nadia will delve into the strategies for executing ABM correctly, ensuring buy in and participation across the business. She'll also discuss six key tactics that will make any revenue or demand gen marketer an ABM hero. So without further ado, let's roll that tape in 3, 2, 1.

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My name is Nadia Davis. I lead revenue marketing and marketing operations. A really weird title, but you will see how the two come together at Payette. Payett is a SaaS company in the govtech space. A very unique space where we serve 100 million people across North America. All of you, if you, you know, live in one of the states where Paid is North Carolina, you can renew your driver's license through Paid without ever stepping foot in the office of the government building or Kansas, the same thing you can pay utility bills, property bills, things of that nature. So the uniqueness of the situation with Paid is that when I joined the company, it was very new. It was trying to go from the startup to a scale up, even though the company has been around, but the processes were not in place. And I have a superpower. I'm sure all of you have your own superpowers, but mine is to build process. I was not born this way. I became this way because this is the pain that I had to overcome so many different times. And I built processes that are scalable, that are easy to understand, that are repeatable and therefore are easily adopted. And this is the foundation. If you're not in a tiny small company with a couple of people and you guys agree on everything, if you're in a bigger company where you have multiple stakeholders, this is the foundational thing. When you start thinking about abm. Let me start at the beginning though. So for those of you who have never done abm, you still live the life of leads. I mean, you recognize this prospecting cycle, right? First name, last name, email address, over the fence to the sales team. They try, doesn't work, they come back to you and the marketing leads don't work. Then you get to the point of, well, let's try marketing qualified lead. And you start stacking intense signals, right? The great session that we had this morning, totally true. You start qualifying them or the smart salespeople start qualifying them and they get to the point where they start qualifying them at the account level, they look at the fit, is it the right company? Are they, you know, the right icp, Is it the right title? So naturally they gravitate to this concept of account based marketing. You, the marketer have not done a thing, but they already know intuitively what that is. So you realize, well, what if I were to bring a program that will tell these people, don't start from first name, last name, start at the organizational level, right? And then work backwards. If it's the right company, if they're in market, then start looking at the right titles, see all the activity within the company and then for the right titles, then you will have to go and get the email address and start your outreach. And then this cycle continues. Then you get to the mql, you start qualifying those people. However many times you have to do it within the company to get to the right person, right? Marketers heard that about 10 years ago when it was presented as a framework by what I call the age of the rise of the giants. All of the terminuses, demand bases of the world started hitting the market really hard. We heard that, we said that is amazing. Now we are validated. Now somebody called it a thing, abm. Right now we can spend the money, buy the platform and we all went and spent the money because that sounded just great. And there is a dashboard, there is some kind of attribution thing which will show you however many people came to the site, did all these wonderful things. So we borrowed the trust within the company, we sold the concept to our leadership and we said just give us the money. We are borrowing trust and we promise you, you will see the results. However, what at this kind of point in anyone's journey, whether you don't have abm, you will get to this point. I guarantee you you will get to this point. So it's better to know it now versus you may have already traveled this journey and you know this point. What they did not tell you, and this is a scandalous, inflammatory statement is that ABM is not for everyone, right? If you are a small business and you don't know your product market fit, you're in the problem stage, right? You're solving a problem in the market, but you have not figured out how to scale your product yet, maybe how to package your product. ABM is not for you and here's why. You still need your leads. And by the way, this framework, I stole it from a good friend of mine from the founder of Terminus, Sangram lives a couple miles down the road from me. I adopted this for this presentation, but he's got the whole book on this if you are interested. It's called move. Great book. But essentially, if you're a startup, you need leads, you need volume because you need to understand who are the right people. Are they consuming your product in a way that will help you grow the product? And if you just limit yourself to a list of accounts which you think are the right accounts. I mean, think how many startups repositioned, think how many startups just kind of evolved and found a different niche and ended up being something completely different. This may not be for you, but if you're at the scale up, if you already figured out, if you have a marketing budget that can support the breadth of these operations, right, then account based marketing is for you. Now remember again, if we're talking a broader account based marketing exercise across the entire organization where we have to show things, we have to attribute things, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about picking five companies if you're a small business and just really pounding the pavement getting into their inbox on LinkedIn. This is truly also account based marketing, but it's on a much smaller scale. I think most people in the room at the point where it's a larger organization putting big money buying ABM platforms and this is where you have to get really real with your leadership, whether you can even show success in that. Right? And why is that? The reason behind it is that the buyer's journey has become so long. And you're thinking, preach, sister, preach. We already know that. Right? But there's a tool out there. It's an attribution tool, a relatively young tool. It's called Hockey Stack. They did this recent survey where they said, look how many touches it takes. From the first time the person ever sees your name on some banner ad to when they convert. Like, look at these numbers. 54 digital touch points to an MQL to the first. I'm sorry. To the first site visit, and then from there, another 87 digital touchpoints to MQL. It's a blog out there. Go look it up. It's a Hockey Stack. They just recently did it, right? And then for closed one, for a certain type of deal, over $60,000, it takes 75 average website touches. I don't know how long this journey takes. Maybe it takes 30 days. So somebody's feeding you, the marketer paying you salary for 30 days without anything that you can show yet. For me, it's 24 months. So think how long I have to be on payroll before I can show that something closed from beginning to end. And the sad part of this is this is only a part of the journey. This is just the programmatic stuff. This is something that a tool stamped with a date. But I'm also running campaigns. In Salesforce, I have events. We go to 84 events. Please say a prayer for me. 84 events. Think about attribution. This is crazy. And then we do in person customer groups, then we do content syndication. All of that goes into Salesforce at the campaign level. So that journey would be even longer. And this is why so many ABM programs just missed the mark. You got all this data everywhere, and you cannot bring it all together and say, company, ABC took these steps, and now they close. And I'm patting myself on the back because I did this and I can show that. Right? And a lot of that comes from this notion of confusion of what ABM is. And a lot of that comes from the notion that you saw in the previous slide, which is just a word salad of acronyms. We talked about it this morning. There's abm, mql, mqa, and it's great if you know it, but go educate your sales team on that. Do they really want to learn? But you have to get them to know this to understand what you're bringing in, right? But think about it. They don't come to you and they don't tell you, hey, marketer, I'm gonna teach you what band is. Or maybe we're gonna talk about medpic, or maybe we're gonna talk about opportunity stages. And you better learn because that's how I run my process. Doesn't happen that way. So there's this disconnect. I literally cornered a head of sales once and we're gonna name him Joe. That's not his real name, but I said joe. So I'm gonna give you a tour of Salesforce. Just like I teach all the sales reps. I'm gonna show you where all of these insights flow so that you can support your team and show them how to prospect based on everything that marketing is feeding. Is it in one place in Salesforce in one screen? No, I'll be honest, but it's in one place. It's in Salesforce. Right? They had to go to four places. He goes, no, no, no. I'm really high level. I don't need to know. No, Joe, like, I really want you to know. So finally we get to the magic place, which is the ABM tool iframe that shows you website visits, shows you impressions and clicks, and shows you even the URL that the person with a company, somebody from the company a person clearly clicked on said, joe, this is the URL. Look at this URL. There's a UTM in there. If you look at that utm, it'll tell you what campaign they came from so you know what they engaged with. He peers into that and goes, what's the difference between a click and an impression? I said, you gotta be kidding me. And he goes, is that an email link? Can I click on that? At that point, it became clear to me that we were in different worlds. So since you all came to Atlanta, I'm sure you all were driving from the airport, you saw a bunch of chick fil a billboards. I figured the next part of the presentation, I'll do a dad joke. My husband played it on me and I just totally like, I missed the mark on this one. So if I tell you there are 30 cows in the field and 28 chickens, how many didn't? Any takers? Thank you. There you go, the spoiler alert. But look how many didn't get that. Now what if I do it this way? There are 30 cows on the field and 20 ate chicken. How many didn't? Right, that's me talking to Joe. Joe had no clue what I was saying and he didn't want to Play the game until I cornered him, Right? So when you see an article that says ABM is broken, proclaimed by for Forbes, penned by Forrester, we all respect Forrester, great analyst company. And they're saying ABM momentum is slowing down. This is just the sunset of the ABM days, right? ABM was poorly defined from the beginning, so no wonder it's not working. I agree with that statement. Yeah, it's poorly defined. ABM is a methodology. Did you think that that was your marching orders to do X, Y and Z and every company the same way and it's going to work the same way? Like how big platforms prescribed they would work? No. You don't go to DevOps people and you say, hey, do you want to do agile or maybe you'll do something else. Test, dev, prod. For those of you in the IT space, right. DevOps run on a methodology. It's a rules of engagements type of play where everybody agrees that certain processes hold true across the business. So when they're saying ABM is poorly defined, totally true. Because everybody has their own idea of what ABM is. But the truth is, you, the marketer, define the rules. You tell your business how this ABM thing will run. I know, very nebulous. I promise you we'll get into the details. So then Forrester goes to add that ABM is the new gtm. There goes the word salad again. Now you're gonna go sell that back to the business that, hey guys, we're not doing ABM anymore, we're doing GTM now. I mean, good luck with credibility, right? ABM is a way to go to market within your broader go to market strategy. What makes things even more complicated? And I know many of you will hate on this. Totally true. Your tech stack most likely is a mess. I spent some time in Illustrator building this picture. I made sure I don't call out any tools. But do you see all the dashed lines in there? That's all the stuff that's not connected. That's all your silos. Oh, it's great to do a little demand gen over Here with a G2 or someone else of the world. Oh, it's good to send a little gift from Sandoza or Rich Desk or whatever. Oh, it's good to do a LinkedIn campaign. And then we got Google AdWords running and then we got emails from HubSpot or Marketo and shoot, there's that salesforce where people go and look, how can I bring all of that into one place at the account level? And I'm Getting very technical in the weeds here. Right? And that is the challenge. And this is why you can't attribute anything because your money is spent in different silos and there's no attribution that flows into those silos. You cannot show that journey that I showed you earlier across all the different tools and platforms, but then they come back to you 12 months later, said, hey, you borrowed some trust, time to pay up what you got. And you have nothing to show because data in the reports have to come from someplace. All those fields have to feed from somewhere. And your fields, they don't exist in your salesforce. They exist in this disconnected tech stack. So this is kind of the setup for how do we make this work? How do we tie it to dollars? I am not a hater on all things brand. I think brands or branded work is great. But I also think that when you are reporting to a board or if you have equity partners in the company, if you reporting to your C level people, they measure things in dollars because at the end of the day, it's what's at the bottom right of the statement, of the financial statement. Your CFO measures it like that too. So how do you tie it to dollars? All the things that happen in different places in your tech stack. So let's start with a cheesy one. Boo. We know that. I know you know that. So your total addressable market is not what you should target when it comes to your target account list. No, you don't just put that Intent filter from 6Sense or Terminus or demand base or triple and say if people are surging on intent, they must be in market. No, because you have your total relevant market. That's a much smaller subset which you think realistically you could hit. But good luck selling that to the rest of the business because I will talk about alignment across the teams. FOMO is real. You go and tell sales that out of the 50,000 accounts, I exaggerated 5,000 accounts that they could potentially sell to. You gonna pick 600, 700. Whoa. What if the one that's really gonna buy is outside of this list? What are you gonna do? So this alignment and driving this at the executive level, making sure people understand is critical thing number two. Let's talk about tech stack. Let's talk about. Since account based marketing is about accounts, let's talk about attributing things at the account level. Yes, you can do the reverse IP lookup. You could see that company xyz, Microsoft or Google or AWS came to your website. Great. What then? What do Your salespeople do. They came to the website yesterday was exciting that you could see. Today you don't know. So take a tech stack and this may not be you because the average demand generation marketer is not at this level of marops. Right. But you have to get your tech stack aligned. There's this call for consolidated tech stack and why they tell you that this is a money savings play, which is true. It's also that data flow play like I want all of these places to talk to each other and I want to know if somebody had a LinkedIn touchpoint. I want that documented somewhere. Whether it's a summary of touch points over 30 days, but I want it to be aggregated somewhere. Why does it matter? It matters because you want to score all of that. And I know this is also another nebulous word, account scoring. Wow. My ABM platform does the scoring. They call it the smart score and they rank it from whatever 0 to 100 depending on all these wonderful insights. Great. But how does this help you if you got half of your stuff in Salesforce campaigns, if your people did things, how does that smart score that tracks programmatic stuff that has a digital footprint incorporate people that you talk to at the booth? I went to one of the booths, I said, scan my badge. Events are on my team. I know how painful it is to run them. You can attribute me to your event if I talk to you again. And I will talk to them again. Because this concept of accounts and people has to become real for you from the conceptual standpoint, from the buy in, across the business for others to understand and from the operational standpoint. So accounts can be tied to revenue. If you can attribute stuff at the account level accounts opportunities are opened against accounts. You can tie account activity or account score to dollars. People are the things that do or take steps or people, you know, humans take steps and exhibit behaviors that we want them to exhibit. As marketers, we score human things, we score marketing touches. You score humans. Whether you got marketo, whether you got something else, you can get pretty good with scoring. You can create your framework of how many points people get for a white paper download, for even chat at the booth, for webinar attendance, whatever. The question becomes how do you blend one into the other? And I'm not going to go into the scoring thing. It's a separate conversation. But just know if you have ops, people talk to them. You can blend people into account level scoring. You can decide, I'm going to take my mql. No, it is not dead. MQL is not dead. It's an operational metric. You need that because that shows people that you can benchmark against, right? Your ICs can look at how many MQLs they engage per month. That's not a board level metric, it's operational metric. So for account scoring, take your average MQL for that account. Figure out whether you want to blend it in with your ABM platform score. Decide what that weighted average could be. That's one of many frameworks, right? But I'm here to give you the ideas for creative juices to flow and then you get to account scoring and then you will be able to build that funnel. And you guys have seen that funnel in many sessions, right? You saw the stages, Target account or awareness engagement. Then you have mqa. Then you have opportunity. How do those accounts go through those stages? By scoring them. And lastly, this concept of here I go with award salad again, abm, ABX across the business, right? And when I see abx, it's account based everything. It's not just your little marketing gig and your marketing silos, it's people understanding that if marketing is working this list of accounts, I want sales to do things with those accounts. I want them to look at those accounts. I want them to have a dashboard that shows for your territory, George, or for your territory, Sam. These are the accounts that did things. And by the way, here's a report of all MQLs in those accounts. You can start from there and figure out your titles and your Personas. Right? And at the end of the day, this is the inspirational slide. If you can show people the full account journey and if you have to make it on a slide, totally fine. If you can pull it into a report, totally fine too. But people have to see this for account based marketing to become real. Right now it's a nebulous concept. People don't understand what that is. But here's what I do. Every time we win a deal, I do an anatomy of a buyer. I go to the sales team, say, hey, this is great. That city of Lansing, for example, closed. Let me show you what they did over the last 24 months. And I go month by month, week by week. When they were touchpoints, look, they came to this webinar and then they came again. And then the treasurer received an email and then we saw them at the event and you guys talked to them. So they see this journey and it becomes real and they buy in and they know they can replicate that. The more of those you show, they start seeing patterns. Humans Are patterns driven? Oh, I saw this slide where they said if there's a webinar, then there's something that's happening that's meaningful. So maybe if I see a webinar, I should put more attention on that lead. Right. And then when it comes to KPIs and OKRs, more acronyms, I get it, but you want to be the one who has the input into those KPIs and OKRs, because we just went through this exercise of what can you score? Where does it come from? So what can you measure? What can you deliver on if you have this nebulous number of revenue delivered by marketing opportunities sourced by marketing. Okay, great. In concept, how are you going to measure that number? How are you going to measure that number on the week when you're really slammed and busy and you cannot pull those manual reports? It has to be something that's part of the framework that's feeding the machine at all times. It has to be something that's a flow in your CRM where you don't have to worry about it unless it's broken and you notice something is not working. Then you go to a person who is over there and ask a question. Right? So back to my funnel. So imagine you're scoring the accounts and your target accounts are the ones that you agreed on in a very peaceful and very collaborative manner with your sales team and your CS team. You guys agree, this is the list. You stamp them. These are target accounts. Then you start doing things for those accounts. You start running your triblio or your six sense or your demand base, whatever it is. Now you see engagement. Those impressions flow into your sales force. They are aware because you can reach them. The platform told you you can reach them, right? Then they start clicking, coming to the website again, another touch point that you can record. Then they go into the engage stage. And maybe those stages, the early stages, you don't even necessarily need to score them. You just need to understand their warmth. Like, how are they progressing? Am I moving people through those early top of funnel stages? You get to that magical MQA stage. That's your handoff again. This is one of many frameworks, right? Yours could be different. Every business is different. But from what I've seen, kind of everybody thinks about the funnel the same way. You get to your mqa. This is where you got to start scoring. Your MQA has to be driven by some kind of behavioral attribution. And scoring is the easiest thing to use. Look at your MQLs within that account. Work it into the account score so that you get all the known people kind of blended in. Look at your ABM platform score. Work it in. So you get your unknown people. That's another concept. Known visitors and known visitors. I know what I know because I cooked them. They're in Salesforce. I have their email addresses, but a bunch of them. For me it's like 90% of people from the relevant buyer Personas. I don't know who they are because think about it, I'm in the purgatory of contact harvesting. Government contacts change every time there's an election cycle. Good luck. Using ZoomInfo doesn't work for me. So for me, these unknown people are perpetually there and I have to consider what they're doing. I'm sure the same is for you because you don't have every email address within the business. Right. So it's important to score and once those accounts become marketing qualified accounts. For me it's a manual process today. But my salespeople see the dashboard and I say look at those accounts. I've given you the private tour of Salesforce of where you look to see how they engaged. Pick the ones that you like. This is just like clicking on social media. You like it. Click sales accepted and then I watch how they progress. Hey, did you click on your sales accepted accounts? Did you see anything that you like? What did you not like? Gives me the feedback that I need to know so I can improve and pull accounts that are not relevant from that. Right. Finally the opportunity gets opened. I have my attribution, I have my date stamps, I have my fields that are marked. I can run a report, show me all target accounts that have hit this stage or that stage that ended up being opportunities. What had ended up being closed. I have a story. My CMO goes to her board meeting and she's got numbers and she gets really, she gets excited talking about how great marketing is working. But I would argue that what you got going on, you're working just as hard, maybe harder. But what you don't have is that attribution piece which in today's world you cannot get away from that attribution. It's Everywhere because famous stat, 80% of the buyer's journey happens in a dark funnel. Right? So if I bring this all together, I promise this is the most kind of text heavy slide and it's the only one here. Bring it all together. Think about all of these things. I talked to you about accounts, I'm sorry, contacts, known unknown contacts. If it's first party contact you know them, they visited the website, you were able to identify them. You can run remarketing to them and you can attribute that because now they are a known contact. Your marketing automation platform can track them. Right? Then think about account level attribution. How do you progress accounts through the funnel? Now all the bullet points are all the things that fold into that, but I'm sure there's more. Then think about. So here you are. You built the rocket to go to Mars. It's your SpaceX, it's launching. But think about paving the path of sales training. They have to understand it. If you geek out, make it super complex, guilty as charged. Right? They will not buy in. Think about over communication to the other teams, everybody else who is looking at those dashboards, your sales leaders, your cmo, you'll be surprised. They may not know many things that fold into this. You have to make it easy, make it easy for them to understand. Hey, this is high level. You don't need to know the weeds. I don't need to talk to you about closed LinkedIn API, but I need to tell you what are the things that I'm reporting on. And you have to be able to tie that to the business level. Okr. So you can say my marketing ROI at the highest level is yielding results. My ABM is working. Right. And then your handoff to sales will be also driven by this process. If you have this built out, you don't need 100% clean data. There's always that margin of error. It's a continuous battle, right? It's the excellence that you're striving for. But it's a nebulous concept. You may never arrive there. But you have good enough. You have your 90%. You have account level data that gets you where you need to be. Once people see that working month to month and you gotta continue reinforcing it every time you go to the sales meeting. Hey guys, did you see that this account did this? Hey, did you see that this person came to your website and visited Page xyz? Whichever page that is. Why don't you check on them? And by the way, they are one of the target accounts, right? It is on you. It's like that adage, right? That practice makes perfect. And then train your team. And if there's one thing. Actually there's two. I lied. There's two things that I want you to take away from this. One is this slide. You have to train the entire team before you put any stuff in motion. I'm happy to share the deck by the way, if you guys want to reach out, find me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to share the deck. But conceptual buy in is important. High level. Hey guys, we're running abm. This is what it is. This is how we're going to do it in this business. Remember, you define the framework. You don't tell them to go and look it up elsewhere. You define the framework for us. This is what that means. We're gonna market real heavy from one angle to all of these accounts. These are our KPIs. This is your executive level conversation. Maybe that's not you. If you're a mid level marketer, you go and inform your CMO or your head of marketing to think about these things in a very friendly way. You're not teaching them life. You're just saying, hey, I know I'm working on this. Have you thought about like, what should I deliver at the end? Or what's the ultimate KPI so I can build for that, right? Data hygiene. A never ending struggle. I had to get Salesforce certified. I'm a Salesforce admin. I was not born to be a Salesforce admin. I had to get certified. I had to go and learn SQL. I have to figure out how to pull queries in a snowflake. Not everybody wants to do that. But you have to have emotion or at least the communication across the company. The data is everybody's business. No, do not enter someone into Salesforce if you think that person exists or if the email address is not there. That's junk. That's a communication piece, right? And define the rules of engagement. Hey, sales, this is what we're doing. You're engaging at this point. How can you see that? Here's the link to the report that shows you that. And continue harping on that over and over again. Every time you go to a sales meeting, ask them, hold marketing office hours. You're probably sitting there thinking, holy cow, that's a lot of work. It is. Unless you're in the company of five people, you all get together and you agree on everything. And it's just this symbiotic, very harmonious relationship in a large company, and by large, I mean even like 300 people is large. If you have to communicate that across a group of 50 people at different functional organizations within the company, that's a lot. Think about a company of 1,000 people, right? For this to yield results, it is on you to lay out the rules of engagement for people to understand what their role in that play is. On that Stage so that everybody is crystal clear. But if there is one thing. Well actually this is the second thing, right? 1. We talked about all of your attribution, but the other thing is that if you have that small pot of gold, this is Q4, everybody is planning for next year. You have the small pot of gold and you're trying to figure out what do I spend that money on. Maybe I'll run more Google Ads, maybe I will do more demand gen through a third party partner. Maybe I will just do more paid webinars because hey, that's guaranteed leads. Don't do it. Spend that pot of gold on an ops person. Spend that pot of gold on a headcount. Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter if you do one more pay tactic. If you cannot pull it in and you cannot bring this all together, nobody will ever know that it took place. So it will get lost in the shuffle, right? So if you and I understand this is more ops than marketing in a lot of cases. But if you want this deck, I'm happy to share. Maybe Claudia will share after the event. Take it to your ops person, say, hey, can you look through this? What would apply to us? Can you show me something that will be built in our organization, knowing what we know with our type of data and our type of system structure, our type of tech stack, what can you build for me and go from there? Will it be the same? No, it won't be the same because your organization is different, your tech stack is different, but the concept stays. Rules of engagement, account level attribution, making sure you can map out the buyer's journey. And at the end I put this slide together which is really text, but this is the ABX readiness audit and there are tons of audits. By the way, this is probably the shortest one. Gravity Global, that ran a workshop yesterday morning, did a great job. I thought it was very well done. They got something on their website, just Google Gravity Global. I am in no way affiliated, but I thought it was just well done. So kudos to them. But this is your readiness audit, right? Think about all of the three categories, your reporting, your marketing and sales handoff, and how would that work? Think about your data and what flows from where and can you collect it all in one place? In conclusion, kind of looking back on my journey, having stood up ABM at three different companies, different sizes, one was really small, Paid is the largest one that I've been at. Doing this thing from like soup to nuts, right? Not just ideating it, but building it and running it. And that's the key, to keep running it right before somebody cuts you off because shoot, it doesn't work. So you built all this thing, but it never kind of takes the scale after consulting. There are too many companies on all of these different ABM platforms. The one thing I can tell you, it's not easy, but it's up to you to make it right and to get the right level of information of what to expect and to set those expectations and get people on the same page within the company. And that is the biggest first step. And your second step would be thinking about ops.