The Ninth Rule of Love with Jay Shetty

Summary

Podcast Summary: Baby, This is Keke Palmer – "The Ninth Rule of Love with Jay Shetty"

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Episode Information

• Title: The Ninth Rule of Love with Jay Shetty
• Host: Wondery (Keke Palmer)
• Guest: Jay Shetty, New York Times bestselling author, Chief Purpose Officer of Calm, and host of the popular podcast "On Purpose"
• Release Date: April 29, 2025

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1. Introduction and Guest Overview

The episode kicks off with Keke Palmer introducing Jay Shetty, highlighting his achievements as a bestselling author and podcast host. Palmer eagerly welcomes Jay, expressing her admiration and excitement for the conversation ahead.

Notable Quote:

• [00:00] Keke Palmer: "Baby, this is Keke Palmer, and she is here for All. Of. It."

2. Jay Shetty’s Upcoming Podcast Tour

Jay Shetty shares details about his first-ever podcast tour, which spans 15 cities. He emphasizes the thrill of engaging with audiences in person, contrasting it with the typical solo podcast recording.

Notable Quote:

• [02:32] Jay Shetty: "This time we're all gonna get to be in person."

3. Redefining Love: Misconceptions and Real Love

The conversation delves into cultural misconceptions about love. Jay explains that true love isn’t about perfection but handling real-life challenges together, fostering emotional intelligence, and aligning on deep values.

Notable Quote:

• [04:18] Jay Shetty: "We want to see people who are real and raw and deal with arguments and challenges."

4. Toxicity vs. Human Flaws in Relationships

Keke raises the point that not all negative behaviors in relationships are toxic; many stem from human imperfections. Jay concurs, emphasizing that toxicity only exists when negative behaviors have a detrimental impact on the relationship.

Notable Quote:

• [05:10] Jay Shetty: "I don't think it needs to be toxic. I think there's a difference."

5. Self-Love vs. Distracting from Loneliness

The discussion shifts to distinguishing genuine self-love from merely distracting oneself from loneliness. Jay highlights that many prefer being alone over seeking the right partner, often settling for less due to fear of being alone.

Notable Quote:

• [13:20] Jay Shetty: "You just never really know what you like... we make a lot of mistakes in love."

6. The Role of Timing in Love and Self-Sabotage

Keke asks about the impact of timing in relationships. Jay acknowledges that while there can be a "right person, wrong time" scenario, personal growth can align these elements over time. He warns against self-sabotage, where past traumas negatively affect current relationships.

Notable Quote:

• [25:34] Jay Shetty: "I personally think that there can be right person, wrong time."

7. Standards vs. Icks in Relationship Selection

Jay introduces the concept of "standards" versus "icks," explaining that many dismiss potential partners based on superficial dislikes ("icks") rather than meaningful standards that affect long-term compatibility.

Notable Quote:

• [23:58] Jay Shetty: "Standards are things that make a difference in five years."

8. Conflict Resolution and Strengthening Relationships

Keke inquires about handling conflicts constructively. Jay advocates for using inclusive language like "we" instead of "you," fostering a team mentality that focuses on mutual growth and problem-solving.

Notable Quote:

• [37:57] Jay Shetty: "We can change this relationship. Let's do it for us."

9. Defining Closure in Relationships

When discussing closure, Jay emphasizes that true closure comes internally rather than seeking validation or apology from the other party. He advises focusing on personal growth and setting boundaries to move forward.

Notable Quote:

• [42:28] Jay Shetty: "Closure is all about you giving closure to yourself."

10. Timeless Lessons on Love

Jay shares timeless wisdom, highlighting that various forms of love exist beyond romantic love, such as a mother's unconditional love. He criticizes the elevation of romantic love as the ultimate form, advocating for recognizing and valuing all expressions of love.

Notable Quote:

• [43:16] Jay Shetty: "The most pure form of love... is a mother's love for her child."

11. The Ninth Rule of Love: Don’t Fall in Love Too Fast

Expanding on his book’s eight rules, Jay introduces a ninth rule: avoid falling in love too quickly. He advises taking time to understand a partner's past and genuine compatibility rather than getting swept away by initial infatuation.

Notable Quote:

• [46:19] Jay Shetty: "Don't fall in love too fast."

12. Balancing Independence and Interdependence

Jay discusses maintaining personal independence within relationships. He suggests allocating time for individual pursuits and friendships, ensuring that both partners grow individually while moving in the same direction together.

Notable Quote:

• [19:47] Jay Shetty: "Spend enough time together and enough time apart."

13. Embracing a Whole Self in Relationships

Jay advocates for embracing all facets of oneself without conforming to societal expectations. He encourages authenticity, allowing individuals to bring their entire selves into relationships rather than fitting into predefined roles.

Notable Quote:

• [55:13] Jay Shetty: "Give yourself permission to be all of yourself."

14. Spiritual Connections in Relationships: Game Segment

In a fun segment with Sharon Palmer, Jay participates in a relationship game determining whether certain scenarios indicate a spiritual connection.

Examples:

• Dating someone with green flags but no chemistry: Spiritual connection

  • [57:53] Jay Shetty: "I think it could be a spiritual connection."

• Falling in love on the first date: Not a spiritual connection

  • [59:28] Jay Shetty: "No way."

15. Q&A with Sharon Palmer: Relationship Advice

Sharon Palmer offers practical advice to listeners facing relationship challenges, such as dealing with toxic in-laws, setting boundaries with needy partners, and navigating custody disputes. Her straightforward responses emphasize honesty, setting boundaries, and seeking legal solutions when necessary.

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Conclusion

Keke Palmer wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of honest communication, personal growth, and finding balance in relationships. The conversation underscores Jay Shetty's philosophy of purposeful living and meaningful connections, encouraging listeners to foster relationships built on mutual respect and understanding.

Notable Quote:

• [60:33] Jay Shetty: "We got to hang out. We got to make this happen."

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Key Takeaways

• Authentic Love: True love involves navigating real-life challenges together, emphasizing emotional intelligence over superficial perfection.
• Self-Love: Genuine self-love is about understanding and valuing oneself, not merely masking loneliness.
• Standards vs. Icks: Differentiate between meaningful relationship standards and superficial dislikes to foster long-term compatibility.
• Conflict as Growth: Approach conflicts with a team mentality, focusing on mutual growth and problem-solving.
• Closure: Achieve closure internally by focusing on personal growth and setting boundaries.
• Spiritual Connections: Recognize the difference between fleeting chemistry and enduring spiritual connections.
• Balance Independence: Maintain personal independence within relationships to ensure individual growth and mutual respect.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jay Shetty: "Standards are things that make a difference in five years." [24:16]
• Jay Shetty: "Closure is all about you giving closure to yourself." [42:28]
• Jay Shetty: "Don't fall in love too fast." [46:19]
• Jay Shetty: "Give yourself permission to be all of yourself." [55:13]
• Jay Shetty: "We can change this relationship. Let's do it for us." [37:57]

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This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for listeners who wish to grasp the pivotal discussions, insights, and advice shared by Keke Palmer and Jay Shetty on the complexities of love and relationships.

Transcript

[Keke Palmer]

This episode is sponsored by Airbnb, y'all. When spring hits and nature starts calling my name, you know, I am headed straight to Airbnb to find the most loved homes to scratch my outdoor z itch. Now, let's get into it, baby. Hey there, listeners. It's your girl, Keke Palmer here. And today we are diving deep into some ancient wisdom. When it comes to that four letter word, we're all trying to figure out love. What does our culture get wrong about love? How do we actually love better, stronger and more real? Well, I had to call in an expert. The one and only Jay Shetty is here to break it all down and talk about his latest book, eight Rules of Love. How to Find It, Keep it and Let It Go. And trust me, we're getting into all of that because, baby, this is Keke Palmer. No matter what we doing in the car, just chilling, pop on Amazon music, sit back and listen. Life, love, sex, science, covering it all, especially the back of money, Always evolved. Matter what it is, we going to make it make sense. Nothing else to do but kick it with the homies and kings to grab you a drink and a snack you enjoy and get into the vibe that only you know it's your girl. This is K, baby. This is Kiki Palma. Yeah. Okay, let me tell you who we've got on the show today because this one right here, he is the real deal. I'm talking about a number one New York Times bestselling author, the chief purpose officer of calm, and the man behind the wildly popular podcast on purpose, Jay Shetty. Welcome to the show.

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, Keke, I'm very grateful to be here. I was. Oh, go on.

[Keke Palmer]

No, I was just gonna say, you know, I love a fellow virgo that has 12 jobs.

[Jay Shetty]

I love it. I love it. Yeah, only you would be recording on a Sunday. I was like, has to be a Virgo. No, I wanted to say I absolutely have been so excited to meet you. I'm such a huge fan. Me and my wife went to the theaters to see One of them Days and just loved it. It was amazing.

[Keke Palmer]

I love to hear that.

[Jay Shetty]

So, yeah, we're really great to be here. Thank you for having me.

[Keke Palmer]

Thank you for coming. Happ you're here. Gonna get into some great conversations. But first I wanna say congratulations because you actually are going live with your podcast on tour. Yes, it's coming up on purposes. Going live on tour.

[Jay Shetty]

That's crazy. I'm so excited. We've got surprise guests in 15 cities. We've never taken the podcast on tour. And what I'm really excited about is people are usually listening to podcasts like yours. Maybe they're watching on YouTube, maybe they're listening on their way to work, on their way back. This time we're all gonna get to be in person. The LA show's at the Greek, so I'm really, really excited about that.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh my gosh. I'm gonna have to come and tune in.

[Jay Shetty]

I.

[Keke Palmer]

Have you done live shows before?

[Jay Shetty]

I have. I went on a world tour two years ago. We did around 40 shows across the world in like four months. This is the first time I'm taking the podcast.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

So I hope loads of people come in.

[Keke Palmer]

What's the difference? Getting that immediate audience engagement?

[Jay Shetty]

It's the best, isn't it? Like, I feel like all of us thrive off of it sometimes. Sometimes I'm sitting in my studio with one camera talking directly to it and I'm like, I'm like so excited to just see people and meet people.

[Keke Palmer]

It's going to be amazing. Speaking of your show and interviewing great guests, you interviewed Selena Gomez and Blanco recently on your podcast and you had the caption that said, being with Selena and Benny left me truly feeling hopeful about love. I wanted to know why. I mean, obviously people can watch the podcast to see, but you being in the room with them, what was it that made you feel that way?

[Jay Shetty]

So I've known Selena for like seven years now. And then I met Benny when they started dating and she introduced us. And for me, just watching the growth she's had, the journey she's had seeing Benny come into her life, what's really, really special is that usually when people talk about what's happening in celebrities lives, it's usually gossip, there's some trash talk, there's whatever. This time people are talking about the podcast because they got to see emotionally intelligent love. They got to see positive masculinity. They got to see two people who have connected over deep values and vision. That's what excites me about it, that's what gives me hope, is that the whole of TikTok and Instagram is talking about really healthy ideas because of an interview, rather than, you know, all the other stuff that we all like to talk about and get entertained by. So to me, it left me feeling hopeful because it's real, it's raw, it's not perfect. I think we've seen couples goals and relationship goals for a long time. I don't think any of us, first of all, I don't think most of us believe that's true anymore.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And I don't think that's what we want to see. I think we want to see people who are real and raw and deal with arguments and challenges. And they spoke about that so openly. So, yeah, I love it for them. I'm really happy for them.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm happy for them, too. And I was going to ask, why is it so real? But in you saying that, it kind of made me think that maybe it's not rare. Maybe it's not what we're publicizing. Maybe it's just not what we're seeing often of or, I don't know, maybe dealing with couples, you see that it is rare.

[Jay Shetty]

I think. I think it's more fun, definitely, to talk about the drama.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Right. And. And that's what people want to talk about. And. And let's be honest. I think a lot of people have gone through some serious trauma, serious relationship challenges. So the reality, it is rare. And it is rare because we make a lot of mistakes.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah. But it's like, isn't that kind of the human thing? I mean, I feel like sometimes we get so hopped up on the whole toxic love when it's like. But isn't all love going to have a little bit of toxicity?

[Jay Shetty]

I don't think it needs to. I don't think it needs to be tough. I think it can be tough. I don't think it needs to be toxic. I think there's a difference.

[Keke Palmer]

So tell me, what do you define as like. Okay, so maybe I can give an example.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

You've been in a relationship with someone for a while.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

And they just have this one pattern of not always telling you how they truly feel.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

So you can go through these situations where it's like, if you had just told me how you feel. Like. And that's kind of like a toxic trait to not be honest or to share your boundaries. Does that mean the relationship's over or is that something you can fix? Like, how do you know when it's a thing that's really toxic or toxic? Fixable?

[Jay Shetty]

I love that. First of all, I think it's only toxic if it has a really negative impact on that person and the relationship. Sometimes it's just a habit that's going to take years to. And one thing I like to remind people is that we can't change people. Like, you or me can't change people. And I think the challenge is that some of us get into a relationship and we're like, I'm gonna change this person. And the funny thing is they're thinking, I never wanna change you, I want you to stay the same. And then you're thinking, I'm with you because I see your potential. And they're with you because they're like, I just like the person you are. So the question they're asking is, why are you trying to change me? And your question is, why don't you change? And I always like to remind people, people don't change for people, they change for themselves. They change for some massive change in their life.

[Keke Palmer]

So two things you said that they really clued on me. First of all, I love the clarification of what is toxic. Because that's ultimately what I mean is like, I feel like everything becomes toxic in today's day. When it's like, some things aren't really toxic, like people are just flawed. So I love the differentiation between what is actually toxic, meaning the impact. The impact is what makes it toxic. And then what do we think of the potential thing? You know, because some people do. Is that bad? Is that already going and heading into a relationship with a bad frame of mind? If you're like, I know who you're.

[Jay Shetty]

Gonna grow into, I feel like I'm gonna break some hearts. But yes, yes it is. Because the problem is that whether they wanna. So there's a few problems. The first is, do they see that potential that you see in them? If they don't see it themselves, it's not happening. Number two, do they want to pursue that potential that you want them to pursue? If they don't, it's not. Thirdly, is that even important to them? That may be a skill that they have a hidden talent that they have, but they don't really care about it. That's not their value and vision for life. And I think you could spend your whole life going, but I saw a great life for you. And it's like, but they don't want that life. And I think it comes well intentioned from our side, but we actually don't realize that's not love.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, I love how you put that. When you said, somebody's looking at you, they're saying, I love you because of who you are, just the person you are. And then you're looking at the reverse is, and you'll be great if you.

[Jay Shetty]

If you did this.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, that is so deep. So then what happens when you get with somebody and you know, you guys have your first fight and they're like, the truth about me is, you know, I've always known this was the issue. And I want to get better and I want to grow, but at the same time, that takes a lot of effort that maybe you're not seeing on a consistent basis. When do you decide to pull out from somebody working with them on their train to becoming who they want to become?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, that's such a great question. I actually remember I was working with someone a few years back, and they found out that their partner had a porn addiction, and that was a big deal for them to figure it out. They didn't know. Then their partner said to them, I'm ashamed of it. Like, I feel guilty about it. I want to move through this. I want to work through it. And I remember I was giving this person some coaching, and they came to me and they said, well, what do I do? And I said, you've got to stay in the relationship. If you are ready for them to have three steps forward, two steps back, one day they're gonna feel they've healed. The next day an addiction is gonna pull them back. If you're ready for that back and forth, then you should stay. But if you're hoping it's gonna be a linear, straightforward journey, just be ready for disappointment. Because the reality is, any change, any addiction, any movement is gonna require three steps forward, two steps back.

[Keke Palmer]

Are there markers that it actually is going in the right direction? Because I'm sure someone thinks, well, what If I spend 10 years and we're still at the same damn stage? Like, there's been no real progressive work, that it's moving forward.

[Jay Shetty]

Truly, the reality is, don't trust their words, trust their actions. Have they committed to a plan? Have they looked for a mentor, a coach, a therapist, whatever it is, do they have that person to stay accountable in their life? Thirdly, are they consistent with it? Is it up and down? Cause it can be up and down for a while, but at one point, you want to see some progress.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Jay Shetty]

And I think the challenge is people want to tell us what we want to hear. People want to tell us that they want to be better because they want to keep you. People want to tell you that they're going to change because they want to keep you. People want to tell you that they can become that person because they want to keep you. So they're not saying it because they're being mean or trying to mislead you. They want to keep you. Yeah, but you've got to decide if you want to stay in the relationship because someone wants to keep you versus because they're actually growing and I think that's for you to see the difference. They're going to say and do and share everything that holds on to you. And you've got to decide whether you want to be held back or move forward.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, that's. That's big. And accountability is a big one. You got to have that partner that's willing to show you you, and you got to be willing to look at that mirror. They're reflecting.

[Jay Shetty]

And another thing, Kiki, that you just hit on for me, I just thought of this as you were saying, that a lot of the time, we put the pressure on the other person.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

You haven't changed yet. You haven't grown yet. The real question I ask people to ask is not, is that person changing? Am I ready to be patient while they change? It's not, is that person growing? It's am I ready to be patient while they grow? That's the real question. And if you ask that question, you take the pressure off them and put the responsibility on you. And all of a sudden, then you know whether you want to stay or whether you want to leave. Don't make it about them. Make it about you.

[Keke Palmer]

Ooh, yeah. Makes me think about so many situations. Now, your latest book, it came out in 2023. It's called 8 Rules of how to Find It, Keep it, and Let It Go.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

What inspired you to write that book?

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, so many things. The first thing was I've dedicated my life to answering four questions for humans. I think there's four decisions we make in life that define the quality of our life. The first is, how do I feel about myself? What do I think of myself as? The most important question and decision you make? My first book, Think Like a Monk, answers that question. My second biggest question is, who do I love and who do I receive love from? It defines all of our success. You're going to spend so much time. If you've seen all the charts after the age of 20, your parents basically spend no time with you. And the person you spend the most time with is your partner or your multiple partners, whoever it is. So you're going to spend so much time with this person. This person is going to disproportionately impact the quality of your career, the success of you as a parent, the success of your passions. It's really important. So for me, that choice is such a big thing. That's what inspired me, is that how can such a big thing that impacts such a huge part of our life be something that we never studied, something we never Went to school for something that no one ever really gave us good advice. We all heard cliches, and we lived our life based on those Hollywood cliches. Or music cliches.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Jay Shetty]

Or whatever it may have been. And I wanted to write a book that really evaluated those. And I think I'd made a lot of mistakes in love, too. So I was intrigued to sit with people who'd been together for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years and people who'd broken up after five months and figure out what was going wrong and. Right. So I did a lot of research, sat with a lot of people.

[Sharon Palmer]

Wow.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. So you talk about self love, obviously, as the foundation for finding love, but how can someone differentiate from genuinely loving themselves and then distracting themselves from loneliness? Right. Because, you know, you could go out and take yourself to a movie or take yourself to dinner, and it's just because you can't spend that time with anyone else. And then you can, actually. Which is something that I feel like in the last couple of years, after having my son, really realized how to do is really enjoy doing activities with me. But it took me a while to really enjoy that and fit in that. So how does someone delineate.

[Jay Shetty]

Well, you're doing. I mean, you're living it. That's beautiful. I mean, that's amazing. What's really interesting is that the studies show we'd rather be with the wrong person than be alone.

[Keke Palmer]

I've been there.

[Jay Shetty]

Right. Like, that's. And we all know we can think of a friend right now who's with the wrong person because they don't want to be alone. Or we'd rather settle for less than wait for what we deserve.

[Keke Palmer]

Because you don't know when it's coming, Jay.

[Jay Shetty]

You don't know when it's coming. And, well, that's. You just hit on something you don't know. You actually don't believe it exists for you. Like that's actually what it is. You believe there's someone better out there, just not for you.

[Keke Palmer]

But let me ask you this, Jay, because I know you know the answer to this. Do you really think it's out there for everybody? Do you think everybody's meant to have love or marriage or a partner in their lifetime?

[Jay Shetty]

I don't think it's out there. I think that it's something that can be worked and built on. You know, when you look at everything, whether it's jobs, relationships, anything, most of it is down to picking. Well, right. If you buy a bad car, you can't make it a good one. If you buy a broken home, you're not gonna suddenly mend it into a perfect one unless you're willing to like gut the whole place and take it all apart. And so that's what you gotta think about it. Like, is like, well, if I pick wrong in the first place because I'm lonely, desperate, don't wanna be stuck by myself. And when you're talking about falling in love with your own company, first of all, I wanna have some empathy for people and I wanna have some grace for people. Because your whole life you were told to have friends, you were told to fit in, you were told to go to everyone's party, you were told to be surrounded by people. If you were a loner in the playground, people laughed at you.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

If you ate lunch on your own, you were considered weird. And so now it's really strange as you become an adult, you're like, oh, wait, I have to love my own company. I was told the whole time. So I have to have some compassion for people. Because we've been trained the other way. The way you start to have love for your own is first of all to try out in small doses. You don't need to go on that big date or go watch a movie by yourself. Truly, just spend five minutes a day with yourself. Check in with yourself. I always say to people, do two check ins at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day, at the start of your day, ask yourself, what do I need to do for me today that will make today a great day? I guarantee everyone wakes up and thinks, what do I need to do for my partner? What do I need to do for my kids? What do I need to do for this colleague, the person at work? Ask yourself in the morning, what's the one thing I need to do today that's gonna make my day? It could be having a cup of coffee, cup of tea, could be watching your favorite TV show, whatever it is.

[Keke Palmer]

Pilates, and this coffee that I have, but apparently I'm now addicted to it. Oh my gosh, I didn't realize how I could be addicted to coffee. Could you believe it? But yeah, no, I agree with you. And I did a lot of different things to try and figure out. But now at this age, for whatever reason or culmination of things, I've really understood what it means to enjoy my company, to carve something out for me and me to do together. And it really is to feeling. But it does take time to get there, you know, and to Know that what it is that you even enjoy on your solo time.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, baby.

[Keke Palmer]

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[Jay Shetty]

We've all got into a relationship and we just started to like what the other person liked. Oh, you like this type of food? All right, let's go get that type of food. Oh, you like horror movies? All right, let's go watch horror movies. Oh, you like this? I'll go along with you. And you do it because you want to be like. You want to be accepted and you want to belong. And the truth is, you just never really know what you like. So you never could stand up for yourself and say, well, wait a minute, I don't really like going to watch football. Can we watch basketball instead? Or whatever it may be, as we get older, we start to Discover that we have likes, we have interests. I remember with my wife, when I married her. We got married nine years ago. We've been together for 12 years.

[Keke Palmer]

Congratulations.

[Jay Shetty]

Thank you. And when we first got together, I remember she lived in a world where her older sister and her mom made every decision for her. So everything. So when we moved to New York and it was just me and her, she'd be like, calling her mom FaceTiming. And we were in an apartment going, what kind of plates should I buy? And what kind of, you know, everything? And it was really interesting to me. Cause then she tried to make that me. So she'd ask me, like, what do you think we should buy? What do you think I should wear? Whatever. And I was like, I trust that you know the answer. Like, I want you to do what you want. Not what I want, not what your mom wants, what your sister wants. And it was really interesting. It would frustrate her so much in the beginning. And now, all these years later, she's like, oh, I actually know who I am because you didn't solve it for me.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

So I think sometimes we try and, like, make it easier on our partner. We're like, I'll make all your decisions for you. I'll manage all the finances. I'll manage all of this stuff. And actually, what it does is it creates resentment because that person, in five years time looks at you and goes, I know nothing about our finances. I know nothing about what's going on. And the other person's like, well, I was just trying to help you. They weren't trying to take it away from you. So I think a lot of it takes you taking a second and going, wait a minute. Just because I follow and subscribe to everything they're doing doesn't mean they made me do it.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And I've got to be brave enough and courageous enough to say, hey, this is what I'm into. You know, this is what's important to me.

[Keke Palmer]

What are some other ways that people can balance independence and interdependence in a relationship without losing themselves?

[Jay Shetty]

I think it's spending enough time together and enough time apart. So I talk a lot about how, like, this is before you have kids, and then after you have kids, it will change. But before you have kids, if you look at seven days out of those seven days, you should try and spend at least a couple of days on your own. Like the evenings you go to Pilates on your own. You go to your favorite work. You need it. And that person should be spending Time on their own. Now, maybe there's a day or two that you spend time with your friends and they spend time with their friends. And now when you guys come together, there's a couple of days where you sit home and watch TV together. I think the problem is right now, people just spend all their time with each other. And now you want that person to be your therapist. You want them to be your business partner. You want them to be your mechanic, your homegirl.

[Keke Palmer]

And it's like, you don't wanna hear that shit. I've really had to learn that. And I think it's so interesting, too, because this is the part of a relationship that happens where it's like, you also get so obsessed with the feeling of being in love and excited about each other. And you try to squeeze it to death to the point where it's like, girl, there's nothing left. Because you've literally. You're not giving it time to breathe. And I think that's a big thing. It's like, you feel like if you're gonna turn away, it's gonna disappear, but it actually will grow stronger if you give it a chance.

[Jay Shetty]

Absolutely. And then you get to decide whether you actually miss them when they're away.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Jay Shetty]

So, like, my wife's in New York this weekend. Cause her friends got a premiere, so she went to support her friend. They're having a girls weekend.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, that's cool.

[Jay Shetty]

And it's like, I'm just. I was playing pickleball with my guys yesterday. Like, I'm hanging out. Like, it's so great to have that space. And one of the big things is making sure that they have time for their friends and you have time for yours. I did a dating event in LA like a month ago where I was leading, you know, singles. So we had 100 singles from all across LA that came to this event. And I did this activity where I said things out loud and people had to step forward if it was them. And one of the things was, I always forget my friends when I get into a relationship. And this girl stepped forward and then all her friends pointed at her and they were like, yeah, that's her.

[Keke Palmer]

I used to be guilty of that a little bit. I'd be like, girl, gone. I'm working with and with him. But I learned that actually that was a really bad, big problem and actually a hindrance to the relationship. Because I needed my girls, you know, I needed something else, you know? But you live and you learn. Sometimes you have to lose in order to gain, which is Crazy, but it happens. Now, obviously, we have dating apps, social media apps, all this instant gratification. And as you spoke about before, social media sometimes shows unrealistic relationship goals. And we've seen a lot of this whole 50, 50, some of the same conversations that we hear all the time on podcasts. How can we protect our relationships from these unrealistic expectations?

[Jay Shetty]

I always say to people that if you envy someone, go and study them. Go and, like, actually look at their life. Like, if you want to compare yourself to someone, get really good at comparing. Now, you don't just get to compare the good day. You don't just get to compare, you know, their relationship. Compare everything. Like, you have no idea that that person just talked to their mom last night and had a massive argument. You have no idea that that person, their family member, has an illness. You have no idea that their kid is getting bullied in school. So it's like, if you're going to compare, compare.

[Keke Palmer]

You don't know where they started. You know, y'all don't have the same starting point either. That's the big thing, too.

[Jay Shetty]

That's a great point. You got to study where they started. You're just studying where they ended up. And it's like, if you actually looked at day one, chapter one in that person's life, it doesn't look like chapter 20.

[Keke Palmer]

No.

[Jay Shetty]

And so you're at chapter one, live chapter one, and look at where they were at chapter one.

[Keke Palmer]

And I think it comes a lot from what you had said before, where it's like, sometimes we don't know ourselves enough to know what we're comfortable with, to know what we des. To know what we're looking for in a partner. So we end up looking outward, and it's like, well, this is what it means to have a good partner. They got to have this amount of money. They can have this. And it's like, but that's somebody else's standard. So how do people start digging into defining their standards?

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, that's a great question. Have you seen this TikTok? It's probably one of my favorite TikTok pages. And it's called Guy with the list.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my God.

[Jay Shetty]

I haven't seen it go to it afterwards. I hope everyone checks it out. I don't know who. I don't know who runs it, because it's like, it looks anonymous, but. But I have no idea. Anyway, it's called Guy with the list. And what he does is he finds clips of every time A woman on TikTok says this gives me the ick. So it's called guy with the list. And he'll literally go, and he has a list on his notes on Apple. And he's like, all right, don't eat a burger in front of a girl. Like number 53, number 79, don't wear matching socks. Right. Whatever it is.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause people said it's insane.

[Jay Shetty]

It's insane. Like our ick list is too much insane. And you know, there's a difference between icks and standards. And the problem is icks have become standards. Right. So if you put your profile as I don't date people under 6 foot 5.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

You never know, there could be a 6 foot 4 person who like fits that perfectly for you and does everything else and you just miss them based on this tiny little profile check.

[Sharon Palmer]

So I agree.

[Jay Shetty]

To me, it's like, think about the difference between standards and icks. And by the way, standards are things that make a difference in five years. It doesn't impact the quality of your relationship. That doesn't mean they're emotionally intelligent. It doesn't mean they're emotionally available. It doesn't mean they have good values. It doesn't mean they're a family person. All the things that you care about isn't made true by this one thing. And I think so often we write people off by an ick, not a standard. A standard makes a difference in five years. If you value family and you want the person to value family, that's going to matter in five years. When you start talking about a family.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Jay Shetty]

Right. If you really value being a career person and you want someone who supports your ambition, that's going to matter in five years. In five months you're not going to see that five months, you're in honeymoon phase. You're having fun, you're hanging out. In five years, it's going to matter whether they believe you should have a career and be ambitious. Yeah, that's the stuff that matters. And so I think we write people off based off icks and don't realize that standards are what stands. Like, that's what standards are what stands. That's what lasts.

[Keke Palmer]

That's a very good distinction.

[Jay Shetty]

It's what lasts.

[Keke Palmer]

So how do you view the role of timing in love? Okay. Like, is there ever, like, the right person, wrong time? Is that a real thing, you think?

[Jay Shetty]

I personally think that there can be right person, wrong time. But if you wait and if you grow, there can be right person, right time. I think you can find someone who's Great for you. But then self sabotage. I think a lot of people throw someone away because they're hurt from the past, and so they ruined their future.

[Keke Palmer]

How do we define self sabotage? Obviously, it's a great big old scale of it. But I'm curious when you're thinking what that looked like.

[Jay Shetty]

Almost like, let's say your past relationship made you really insecure. Now you project that insecurity onto the new person who didn't actually do anything to inherit that. Like they're just being themselves, but you're taking things from the past and you're projecting them onto this person, whether that be expectations, insecurities. And that becomes self sabotage because you could push someone away who just wants to be there for you. I think so many of us, like, we confuse stability for boredom, right? And we confuse inconsistency with excitement. That's self sabotage.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so true. And with stability, it can be, I would say, peaceful, obviously, sometimes we would say boring. But there are ways to spice it up. When you get to that space, you can say to somebody like, look, we've been a little bit forward lately. Let's get into something more fun or exciting, you know? And it's like intimacy is created out of that calmness, whereas inconsistency, you don't even feel safe. I can't even let my head down.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly. And it's easy. If something's peaceful, you can make it passionate.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Jay Shetty]

But if something's crazy, it's hard to make it peaceful. Right. Like so. And that's the problem. That's self sabotage. We get so bought into. Like, we're used to trauma, we're used to drama, we're used to inconsistency. So we get so conditioned to want it, to find it. Like, we say we want presence, but then we chase someone who doesn't give us attention. Right? We say, what is that?

[Keke Palmer]

Is that just humanity?

[Jay Shetty]

No, no, no. But I think it's because of conditioning, because we've been taught to believe that someone who doesn't want you is more attractive than someone who never wants to leave. Like there's someone right next to you who's there for you. Like, we say we want affection, but then we want someone who never gives us their approval. So it's like. And you know why? It's all because of what's hot for five months and what's hot in five years. It's two different things in five months. It's fun. The chase is so much fun. I've chased so many Women in my life before I was married. It was fun, I loved it. But having been in a long term relationship, I can realize there's a different thing that matters in five years, 10 years, as time moves on.

[Keke Palmer]

And I think it ties into obviously one of those first questions that you'd mentioned that you wanted to answer, which is, how do I feel about myself?

[Jay Shetty]

Yes, yes.

[Keke Palmer]

How you feel about yourself defines what type of relationship you think you deserve, what type of love you think you deserve, if you're worthy of that, all of those things. So, yeah, I think that's true. As I've continued in my life to grow in my identity and my acceptance of myself, my desires for my relationship have changed because they're now mirroring what I feel is of my value.

[Jay Shetty]

What's changed for you? I want to hear actually, like, where do you think that's like taking place in your life? I mean, intrigued.

[Keke Palmer]

So I feel like the biggest thing that changed is my honesty and acceptance of the desire that I like to have my independence. I think that was something that I used to feel bad about or I felt like as a girl, like, oh, you should want to be cuddled up and cooped up. But I'm very much a free spirit. And I think I realized an acceptance of that, of myself. And also after having my son, how that helped me be a better mother. Honoring that, that was something that then became centered for me and my next relationship. I need somebody that's cool with me doing my own thing. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not respectful of the relationship. Relationship, which is what I immediately used to believe that was. And I would push my own boundary down to prove that I'm not trying to, you know, not leave you. No, no, no. The truth is I just want some space for me. This is. I work all the time, then I gotta be a mom, then I gotta be a girlfriend. I also wanna just be and do me. And so I feel like that came just from again, like I said, a lot of loss. That helped me gain more introspection on myself and what I really truly needed to honor, which was that boundary that you are. Girl, it's okay to be really independent. It doesn't mean you don't love anybody.

[Jay Shetty]

That's amazing. Good for you. That's brilliant. Because that's where everyone just pretends, right? Like you start, like you said, you start breaking your own boundary because you just want someone to like you and you don't want to upset them. And then all of a sudden you end up doing that anyway. Like, I think about that all the time. Like, the amount of us that stay in relationships because we don't want to upset someone. Not realizing you're going to upset them in six months when you break up with them anyway or break a boundary anyway. And it's like you're gonna hurt them less if you break up now than in six months.

[Keke Palmer]

Why is that so hard? I guess it's hard because you don't wanna upset the person. But it's so strange because then you're not being present. You start to trade presence for comfortability. And you both start performing the relationship that you think you have when really you could have actually just had it or at least seen it wasn't gonna happen.

[Jay Shetty]

It's actually about us. The truth is we say we don't wanna hurt the other person, but the truth is we don't wanna look like a bad person. Like, we don't want to be seen as someone who broke your heart. We don't want to be seen as someone who let you down. We want to be seen as the perfect boyfriend, the perfect person who got everything right. And then somehow you, of your own accord decided you don't want to be with us.

[Keke Palmer]

Especially. We want to be on point, you know, we want to be on point.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Trust me, we would do our best. We're criticizing.

[Jay Shetty]

Is everything in your house really organized?

[Keke Palmer]

I'm super organized. Very Type A. I mean, I can get loose and let loose, but it's like, I very much so like, order. It helps me think. Me too. What's the best way for a relationship to grow? We talk about, you know, you and your wife have been together for 12 years. People get in relationships, there are lulls. They're, you know, growth periods. You're growing and then they're not growing, but then they're growing and then. So how do you maintain when, you know, being in a partnership with two humans?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. You're never gonna grow at the same pace.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

You just gotta make sure you're going in the same direction. You're going to the same place. I think about it like, let's say me and my wife are going out for dinner tonight, but she's coming from the house and I'm coming from here. We're not coming from the same place and we're not coming at the same pace. She's like, I'm gonna be there at 6:30. I'm like, the reservation's at 6:15. I'm gonna be there at 6. Right. We're communicating so we're not gonna get there at the same time. So that means she's like, will you wait in the car for me? I don't wanna walk in on my own. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll wait in the car for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever you need, I'm here for you. We're not gonna get there at the same time, we're not gonna get there at the same pace. But we gotta be moving in the same direction, we gotta be going to the same place and that way we just gotta communicate. She might be like, hey, I just stopped for a second, you know, I just had to fill up gas. Okay, cool, I got you. I'm waiting. Don't worry, I got this right? So that's what's required. And I feel like as time goes on and you spend more time together, trying to move at the same pace and grow in the same way is a waste of time. Because she's a different human, I'm a different human, we met at a different pace, a different age.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And so you've got to allow that to keep happening. The problem is we don't communicate effectively. Yeah, we're going to be five minutes late, going to be five minutes early, and then you feel let down.

[Keke Palmer]

And I think this is a big thing too, why people say trust is so important in relationships. A lot of times we think about trust on the most surface level of, you know, you telling the truth or not. But when we're talking about it in terms of what you're saying in relationships, like I gotta trust that you're gonna get there.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

That's a different level of trust that you know, where it's like I'm gonna spend the next. Or if I said I do or if I say I'm gon two more years into this relationship, that's two years of my life. Yeah, that's time that I'm investing, that I'm expecting something on the end of it. How do you do that without contention? I guess. You know what I'm saying?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, I think it's more regular check ins. Like I think most people have these conversations when everything's going wrong for me. There's four check ins I try and have with my wife every week. Every week I ask her what have you got coming up and what do you need help? Like what's going on in your life? And then I'll tell her what I've got coming up and what I need help with. Every month I'll check in with her and go, what Are you excited about this month? Like, what's your goals? Like, what's happening? And then I'll tell her mine every quarter. This is the hardest one. I check in with her and I go, is this relationship going in the direction we want? And if it's not, what are we both gonna do about it?

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Jay Shetty]

Like, do we both want to. What? You just said, I don't want to live a day without love. Like, I don't want to live a day in my life where I don't feel loved. My life is optimized on every other level. Right. It's like, I don't want go a day without love in my life. And now that doesn't mean that every day has to be the loudest, biggest, craziest love. But I don't want to waste a year of my life thinking I didn't feel loved that year. So we got to check in regularly. And then every year I'll check in with her and go, what are your resolutions? What are the habits you're building? How can we help each other? So I feel like when you have those check ins, you save yourself.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Jay Shetty]

And you also give each other the opportunity to say, you know what? Like I've said to my wife before, I said, you know what? I don't think we've prioritized going away together. We've both been working. You've been prioritizing the family, I've been prioritizing my friends. I don't think we've spent time thinking, should we figure that out? Right. It gives you an opportunity in a safe space rather than it being like, you never organize vacations. You know, you always do. You always have time for work. Because then it turns into an argument when it should have just been a conversation.

[Keke Palmer]

Shout out to friends of mine, Bri and Dom. They're married couple, and they talk about how they often have the same kind of thing where they're like, literally be like, even if it's got to be a zoom. Hey, how you doing? Just checking in, you know, making sure that they keep their union strong. So I love this check in piece. Baby, this is I. This episode is brought to you by Saks. I learned early on that fashion is a language of its own. And, baby, Saks Fifth Avenue has arrived on Amazon to help you make a statement without saying a word. What you wear speaks volumes. And now you can have a luxury fashion that amplifies your message, all with a couple of taps. And when I say luxury, I'm talking luxury. Luxury. Okay. Saks on Amazon is bringing the heat. Sultry and sexy Dolce and Gabana. Modern and eco friendly Stella McCartney edgy and powerful Bomahaan. I mean, y'all know I love me. A little statement shoulder, honey. Okay. My body is just tingling thinking about this fabulosity at my fingertips. They have got you cut, covered on everything from head to toe. Clothes for everybody, then bags you've been dreaming about, shoes that'll make you strut and beauty products that'll have you glowing brighter than a disco ball. At Studio 54, my stylist Zoe Costello and I are always creating looks that make statements. I know y'all saw that gorgeous Stella McCartney coat and satin Dolce dress I wore on Good Morning America. Thanks, boo. And now you can get that same energy with Sachs curated edits. Whether you're looking for the perfect spring wedding ensemble, casual, cool weekend vibes, show stopping party look, vacation ready pieces, it's like having your own personal stylus at your fingertips thanks to the easy, seamless and personalized Amazon platform. So go ahead baby, let your style do the talking. Because when it comes to self expression, these luxury finds are hitting all the right notes. Get the Saks designer brands you love delivered just like that. New on Amazon. What's the biggest misconception you think about maintaining long term love?

[Jay Shetty]

I think a misconception is that people almost feel that if you've been together for a long time, then you must love each other a lot. I don't think that's true. I think a lot of people stay in relationships because they're scared to leave. I think a lot of people stay in relationships because they're scared of being alone. I think a lot of people stay in relationships for the kids. I think people stay in relationships for all sorts of reasons. So to say that just because you've been together for 20. I've got plenty of friends who've been together with their partners for 20, 25 years and they're not happy or less than that, but not happy. And so I don't think length of a relationship means depth. And I think we should all be looking and encouraging people to find depth, not just celebrating length. Right? Like it's very easy to be like, oh yeah, you're doing great. Like, I don't think the success of my marriage is we've been together for 12 years. My success is I think we both still want to be here. Like it's a daily choice. It's not like you don't benefit from going, we've been together for 12 years, we're going to be together forever. It doesn't work like that.

[Keke Palmer]

And with time, it's all about weight, right? So that's depth. Probably made it feel like it's like, you know. Because time flies when you're having fun.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly.

[Keke Palmer]

Because of that. That weight.

[Jay Shetty]

Great question.

[Keke Palmer]

How do you approach conflict in a way that strengthens a relationship rather than damages it? Because obviously it, you know, it can be crazy.

[Jay Shetty]

If you're scared of asking the right questions, you're in the wrong relationship. Asking the right questions should strengthen a relationship, not weaken it. So if you're scared of having a tough conversation, that means it's a weak relationship. Because if we have a strong relationship, I should be happy to have tough conversations. That's the point. Even if you look at friendship, right? Forget romance for a second. If you've got a friend and you're like, we really are friends, that means you're willing to say the truth to them. But if you feel like you can't say the truth to your partner or your friend, well, then that relationship's somewhat fake, right? Because what's the depth of it again? So, first of all, I think you have to clarify that, that your relationship is getting stronger when you can have tougher conversations. It's a great metric of how deep a relationship is, but how do you do it without tension? I have this rule that I say to everyone. I say, whenever you're in an argument or a discussion or a conversation where you're trying to share something, never say, you and me switch it for us. And we. So instead of me saying, you always do this, I would say, how can we think about what's going. How does this make us feel? Not, this makes me feel like this. Whenever you do this, I feel like you make me the. All of a sudden, all I've made it is, we're on opposite sides of the team. We're now fighting each other rather than us. And we. We're on the same team. Because, Kiki, for me, it's really simple. If you love someone and you win an argument and they lose, you both lost because you're on the same team. And if I lost and you won, we both lost because we're on the same team. So it has to be a win win or a lose lose. There's no third option. And I think too many of us don't realize that when we say you always or you never or I feel this and you make me feel this way now, we don't realize that the responsibility has to be us. And we. We can change this relationship. Let's do it for us.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Not. You can change this relationship. Do it for me. Me. Right. It's like, yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Which is like.

[Jay Shetty]

It's a different language, and it automatically. It just lowers someone's defense mechanism. Like, it just brings someone in, and someone goes, oh, they're taking accountability, too. They're taking responsibility to. They're not just saying, it's my fault. And all of a sudden, your guard drops.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And you go, all right, let's do this. Right. Like, it's a different energy.

[Keke Palmer]

Because it's true. Anytime you're in a relationship, it can't just be one person's fault. It just really isn't, you know, it's just not possible. It takes two to tang. Um, speaking on that, how do you define closure? Right. Does it always require conversation, or can it be found internally? I mean, I kind of know this answer.

[Jay Shetty]

Because you've had to do it.

[Keke Palmer]

I've had to do it. People aren't always going to give you what you're looking for, so you do have to find it for yourself. So, you know, how does someone get there?

[Jay Shetty]

I don't think you can find closure from the place that broke you. Right. It doesn't make sense. It's like. Like you don't go back to the person who messed something up for you to fix it for you. That doesn't make sense. How can you be healed by the person who hurt you? Like, that's the energy they carry. And so you. It doesn't make any sense.

[Keke Palmer]

But the brain capacity.

[Jay Shetty]

They don't have the capacity to. But the brain goes, no, if they don't fix it, I'm always going to be broken.

[Keke Palmer]

Or if they don't acknowledge it. I used to always have that thing with myself as well, where it's like, oh, you know, I need them to know they did me wrong.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

You know, I need them. But it's like, I already know I did. I was done wrong. You know what I mean? So them saying, yeah, I did you wrong, does it change it? It doesn't change it. Anyway, so it's almost like this weird way of keeping yourself in grief, really what it is.

[Jay Shetty]

And you're spot on, Keegan. Like, really what it is is you just want that person to feel the pain you're feeling. That's what it is. You just want them to feel that punch in the gut that you're feeling, which, by the way, is totally valuable. If someone's caused you pain, you're just like, well, until you accept it, that means you don't even realize how much pain you caused me. The challenge is they may never realize the pain they caused you until it happens to them. And so you may not be around for that. You don't even want to wait around for that. And by the way, you are not the one who wants to cause them that pain, because now you're caught in that cycle of pain as well. So what you said, it has to come back to you giving closure to yourself. And the best closure is looking back at the relationship and thinking about all the times you compromised yourself, and now reminding yourself that you're not gonna do that again. Thinking about all the times you broke your boundaries and now you're not gonna do that again.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so true.

[Jay Shetty]

Closure is not like, oh, now I mended it. It's all cool. It's like, no, I'm not gonna put myself out there in that way again. I'm not gonna do that.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause, Willie, what you're saying is you're holding space for yourself in a way that they couldn't hold it for you. And that was the problem all along, was that nobody was holding space for you. You. Not even you.

[Jay Shetty]

Yes. Well said.

[Keke Palmer]

So now you are. And that is. I love that.

[Jay Shetty]

I love that you. Just you.

[Keke Palmer]

We're living.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. This is so. I love this.

[Sharon Palmer]

I love this.

[Jay Shetty]

I haven't met a new burger for a long time. So this is like, this is you.

[Keke Palmer]

Give me life, J. You, too. Now, obviously, your teachings often combine ancient wisdom and modern psychology, which I live for. I live for spiritual and science. Like, let's get into everything now. What's one timeless lesson about love that still applies today?

[Jay Shetty]

That's such a great question.

[Keke Palmer]

We're getting into your head.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, that's. That's really making me think. What's a timeless lesson? Love. I. I would say that. Oh, that still applies today, right? That's still relevant today. What's really beautiful is that if you look at all the ancient traditions, they have so many different words for love. There's familial love. There's friendship love. There's romantic love. There's love for your child. And actually, the Vedas, the Eastern traditions, the spirit traditions, they say that the most pure form of love, or the closest thing to it on planet earth, is a mother's love for her child. Like, that is the purest, most unconditional love. And I think anyone who's been fortunate enough. I appreciate not everyone's had the fortune of Having that love. But maybe you've had the fortune of giving it. I think that's true. Like when I think about how my mom loves me. Like there is no one on planet Earth who loves me like my mom loves me. If I called her name and said, mom, I need you to fly from London to LA and fly back and just be here for two hours. Cause I need you, she would do it. Like she would actually do that. Very few people would do that. And that's not because they don't love me. It's just because a mother's love is so pure. And the reason why I bring that up is. I think it's because in the modern world, we've placed romantic love as the peak experience of love. So we put all this pressure so your friend could love, your kid could love you, your mom could love you, your brother could love you. But we think all of that love is less than romantic love.

[Keke Palmer]

And Jay, you just brought it to me because I think that's. You know, a lot of people say after kids that they're changed, you know, stuff like that. But I think that that could be a piece of. What opened my eyes as well is because I realized that that was a lie. That the thought or the belief that romantic love was the end. I knew that that made no sense. Because when I shared the love that I had with my son, who is a full human being on his own, I don't I dependent on it, but I felt the realization that, oh, wow, it's. That's not true. That love is love regardless. And we get to experience all type of love. And it doesn't have to have a limit or idea of what this is. Greater, lesser than whatever it is. It's like love is love. It really kind of broke that ceiling for me.

[Jay Shetty]

And if you look at all the people that changed the world, they loved people. Like Martin Luther King did what he did because he loved people. Malcolm X did what he did. Cause he loved people. Like people who loved people changed the world. Romantic love didn't change the world. When was the last time that two people loved each other romantically impacted millions of people? That never happened.

[Keke Palmer]

Literally no one other than Rose and Jack.

[Jay Shetty]

Exactly. And that messed it up for everyone.

[Keke Palmer]

That did affect us.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, that did affect us.

[Keke Palmer]

That did.

[Jay Shetty]

There was enough space on that door. There was enough space on that door. She wanted him to die.

[Keke Palmer]

Like, I can't believe her ass. And that ring, she should have said she kept it. She kept it. Now, if you could name the ninth rule of Love for your book. What would it be? Cuz? Obviously 8. But if we could.

[Jay Shetty]

No one's ever asked me that. You're. You're good. This is good. This is good. What would be the ninth rule of love? It would be don't fall in love too fast. Don't fall in love too fast.

[Keke Palmer]

Because what if they're obsessed with me.

[Jay Shetty]

Jay, don't fall in love too fast. I'm sure a lot of them are obsessed with you, Kiki, but do not fall in love with too fast. It's like you. You. Because you start planning the future and you don't even know their past. Right. You think you know their dreams, but actually you just about know their plans for tomorrow.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Like, you think you know their heart, but you kind of just know how they made up their mind. Like, there's a big difference between what you think you know and what you know.

[Keke Palmer]

Fast. How about that? What's too fast?

[Jay Shetty]

I think too fast is the amount of time you've spent with someone. I don't think you can't give a time. Because, like, for example, when I've started dating my, she was doing her second degree and I was unemployed. I saw her every single day. And because I saw her every single day, we learned so much more about each other. And by the way, we didn't see each other on dates. I used to go to her college. I used to wait for her in between lectures, and I would sit there and apply for jobs. And then we'd hang out in between her friends would join, other people would come around. We spent time in a real way. So we sped up a lot of our relationship. Whereas you could, say a year, but then you only saw each other once. A. So I don't think it's about time. You can't give it a time. It's like, how often do you see each other? And how often is it not a date? Like, it's not like you're both fully dressed up, out at dinner, out about town. How often do I see you just hanging in your sweats now?

[Keke Palmer]

Somebody out there dating somebody unemployed, and they're like, they're gonna be the next Jay Show.

[Jay Shetty]

I was. When I met my wife. I was $25,000 in debt.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh.

[Jay Shetty]

I was being rejected by 40 companies.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my God.

[Jay Shetty]

And my wife had a lot of options. She was. Yeah.

[Sharon Palmer]

And how did she.

[Keke Palmer]

How did she come in? Honestly, that's a big thing. You know, the 5050 conversation. Always the patriarchy, the man making more, the woman making less. In this situation, Obviously, you were, like, you said, unemployed. And your wife, like, how did she know? For the women that are thinking about that, I got bills that need to be paid, and I want my partner to help me with that. But you could be missing out on your great love that has a great career coming for him, too. What do you make of that?

[Jay Shetty]

I. I think it comes back down to values and trust. Right. Like, I think she trusted that I wanted to get my life together. I just didn't have it together at that point. But she trusted. She could see that I was dedicated, focused, working towards it. She didn't have to inspire me to do that. She just had to be a support system. And even when we had really tough times after that, we went through a period where we were, like, nearly four months away from being broke. And I remember I came home and I told her, and she was like, I trust you. And just that for me, sometimes for a man, all you need to hear is that your partner trusts you and believes in you. And it can just change the trajectory of your life because you didn't need them to figure it out. You didn't need them to fix it. You didn't need them to solve it. You just needed to know that they were gonna stick with you even when you didn't have anything. And that credit goes to my wife. She's probably the only person who can answer that question.

[Keke Palmer]

So go ahead and tell that man you trust him, y'all. No, I'm just playing. I also wanna talk about just your background quickly. In business school, and then you studied management science, and then you stepped away to become a monk. You've had such a. I've lived a lot of lives. Yeah. So, I mean, talk to me about your decision to become a monk.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah. I've just. You know, Kiki, the truth is. And. And it sounds like. I mean, you've done a lot of things, too, so you can relate.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. No, I can't.

[Jay Shetty]

It's one of. I've just always followed my heart and intuition at every step of my way.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Every step of my life.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Jay Shetty]

And I've just never been able to silence that loud voice inside of me. The voice inside of me telling me what to do. The right thing is so loud. Because I never ignored. Ever since I was a young kid. So I feel like ever since I was young, since I was, like, since I could hear it at 14 years old, I've always followed it and never ignored it. And so I became a monk simply because I'd met a lot of Rich people. I'd met a lot of strong people. I'd met a lot of beautiful people. I'd met some famous people while I was at college. Like, you saw people coming in, but I didn't meet anyone who was happy. And the monks were the first people that I met that were happy. And so for me, it was as simple as, I want what you have. Like, I want to know how to master my emotions, study spirituality, and serve other people, because that's what they were doing. And to me, those values seemed higher than everything else. Now, as I've grown older, I've met a lot of people in entertainment. I've met a lot of people in business who have those values. Yeah, you don't have to become a monk to have those values. But for me, at that point in my life, I just wanted to go so deep into the study of meditation and spirituality and Eastern wisdom. I'm so lucky. I got three years of getting to study 5,000-year-old scriptures.

[Keke Palmer]

How did you even find where to? I mean, is it the same as school? Like, how do you know this is the right monk place?

[Jay Shetty]

No, I met a monk who I was really impressed by. He's still one of my closest teachers today, and he was in London traveling, giving classes. I just thought everything he had to say was incredible. Just like you'd go today. People have podcasts. We didn't have podcasts then. I was going to real events. Imagine you heard someone and you thought, that person really resonated with me. And guess what? I'm just gonna go wait around until they answer my question.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

And I'm gonna spend time with them. So it was as simple as someone coming to one of your events, loving what you had to say and waiting till the end to talk to you just to ask you a question. And that's what I did. Because, you know, he became one of the greatest mentors of my life.

[Keke Palmer]

And then when. What made you say, you know what? Or how did you realize I don't have to just be a monk to do this, like, or. Or that whatever. What it is required for the monk lifestyle, I don't longer want to be a part of.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, I mean, monk life is hard. You wake up at 4am every day. You sleep on the floor, like, on a small mat. You have a gym locker, and so all your possessions fit inside a gym locker. Now, I have more shoes than would fit inside that gym locker. You. You get two sets of robes. You wear one, you wash one. It's really simple, hard living And I'm really glad I did it for three years, but. But I genuinely couldn't hack it for any longer. It was so physically tough because you're sleeping in a room with like a hundred other people. Like, if someone's sick, you get sick. If someone wakes up at 2am You. I'm a light sleeper. You wake up. It was tough. I'm really glad I pushed myself to do it. I learned so much. But I think I realized I felt my goal was to share what I'd learned with others. And I felt like I'd gone there so that I could give those messages on to help other people. And I never thought it would be in the way I get to do it today. Like, I never thought I'd be sitting here with you, but I just knew that I had to take it back to the people that I grew up with to share it with them.

[Keke Palmer]

And so how would you describe yourself now? Would you describe yourself as a influencer or, you know, as like, ex monk or, you know, what, what would you do? What's your description? And how do you feel about people that question that path and don't understand? Like, okay, did you always know you wanted to do the monk thing? And was this all a plan?

[Jay Shetty]

You know? You know, what if it was all a plan? I mean, you know what I think any creative person, I mean, I can only talk to how anxious I felt when I joined the monastery. When I joined, my friends either thought I was crazy or gay, right? Like, that was literally all I heard. Like, that's genuinely true. That's what people thought. This is like 2010, right? People thought when I was joining the monastery, my family were like, you're wasting your life. You're ruining what your parents had planned for you. That was anxiety for me. When I left, everyone was saying, we told you so. We knew you wouldn't make it. We knew this was a waste of your time. Then I got rejected from 40 companies. Everyone was like, we knew it. There you go. So if I'm honest with you, Kiki, I never had a clue that this many people would care about what I had to say. I just knew I had to say it. And even if it meant five or 10 people. And for years, 10 years before I ever had a video go viral on the Internet, I used to do this in rooms half the size of the. This talking in rooms of five to ten people for years. And so for me, I've just done what I've loved. And it's just amazing that it took off like Nine years ago and, you know, became this amazing thing. But I live in gratitude every day. I had no plans for it to be this big.

[Keke Palmer]

And do you think there's nuance missed, meaning the conversation around how much spirituality is allowed to live in modern spaces and how we continue to move that forward?

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, well, I. I think we limit it because we try to make it be like, you've got to make a choice between whether you're material or spiritual.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

So it's like, oh, if you're spiritual, then you can't dress this way. If you're spiritual, well, then you can't be ambitious financially. Or if you're spiritual. And I'm like, I don't want to live in a world full of rich people who are not spiritual. Like, Right. I would want wealthy. Right, Right. Like, it's like, I would want to live in a world where successful people are spiritual, where wealthy people are spiritual, where people working harder, spiritual. Because we hope that they'd be doing it from a better place. Now, no one's perfect.

[Keke Palmer]

No, no.

[Jay Shetty]

We've all got agendas and we've all got intentions. But for me, I'm trying to give myself permission to be all of myself. So I always say to people, I'm as much an ex monk as I am a person in media, as I am a married man. Like, I'm all these things. I love fashion, I love business. I'm ambitious.

[Keke Palmer]

You like cologne, too. You came in smelling good.

[Jay Shetty]

Thank you. I appreciate that. I love meditation. I love. I'm like, I love all of it. And I'm just at a point in my life where I'm giving myself permission to be everything I am, because I'm tired of having to pick and choose and live up to this caricature version of who I should be. Like, I don't wanna be one thing anymore. And I think all of us are not one thing. I think that's what we're fighting against.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Jay Shetty]

You know, so give yourself permission to be all of yourself. But that, by the way, that triggers people, because people feel a lot of.

[Keke Palmer]

Times we're living fragmented. And it sounds like you wanna live as a whole person.

[Jay Shetty]

I do, because I am all these complex mix. Like, I'm just not one thing. Like, I always say this, you know, when you go on TV and they ask you, what do you want your title to be? And they're like, oh, do you want to say author, podcaster, whatever? And I'm like, I just wanted to say helping people find their purpose.

[Keke Palmer]

Period.

[Jay Shetty]

That's all I care about. Like, that's what I'm committed to. Whether I do that through a book or a podcast or social media, that's just a vehicle. That's not what I'm about. Like, that's not why I breathe and exist. I exist to help people live a purposeful and meaningful life, and I do that through all these ways, but that's not who I am. Like, you're an actor. You're a musician.

[Keke Palmer]

I was about to say, I feel the same way. Like, there's always an end point of what it is. And for me, I want to make people feel things.

[Jay Shetty]

There you go.

[Keke Palmer]

I want to make people get in touch with the feeling that they no longer thought that they had. That brings them to presence. And I do that through performance. I do that with a show, with a podcast, with a conversation. And I think that that's a question in terms of, you know, helping people find their purpose. That's the question. What is yours? What is your thesis statement?

[Jay Shetty]

Yes.

[Keke Palmer]

What do you want to be of service to?

[Jay Shetty]

Yes. What do you want to dedicate your life to? Like, what do you want to do for people? It's as simple as that. Like, how do you want to make people feel? And you can do that in any way. So don't make it like, oh, I'm a lawyer. I'm an accountant. I'm an editor. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a, you know, a nurse. I'm a doctor.

[Keke Palmer]

Like, you could be all the things.

[Jay Shetty]

You could be all of that, you know, and that's what people were before. People were farmers and storytellers. People were. You know, that's. People were nuanced. People were mothers. And this. People were daughters. And this. It's like. But today we've made it like, no, no, no. You can only be one thing. So I'm trying to break out.

[Keke Palmer]

I think I was saying I feel like we're, you know, we're all trying to break out of that. And, you know, as far as I'm concerned, Jay, you all right with me.

[Jay Shetty]

Thank you.

[Keke Palmer]

I have really enjoyed talking with you.

[Jay Shetty]

You too. You too.

[Keke Palmer]

You are such a fun guy. I like to say. I appreciate it.

[Jay Shetty]

You got to come on my podcast. I'm waiting.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm there. I am there. Now, before I let you go, I always play a game with my guests, so we're going to play a quick game called Spiritual Connection or. Nah.

[Jay Shetty]

Oh, okay.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm going to throw out some relationship situations, and you just Tell me whether you think there could be a spiritual connection there or no.

[Jay Shetty]

I love it. All right, let's do it.

[Keke Palmer]

Dating someone who has all the green flags but no chemistry, spiritual connection or not.

[Jay Shetty]

I think it could be a spiritual connection.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

Because I think that chemistry can be built with time. And I also believe that when you don't feel that spark instantly, you write it off. But most of the time, you end up with a firework. Right. Like, fireworks go off like crazy, but then they're over in three seconds. And so that's what chemistry can be like. Whereas a spiritual connection can be more gradual. It's more like a candle that burns longer, that has a beautiful scent, but it's not as bright, it's not as powerful. But then when it gets strong, it becomes a beautiful fire. And so to me, it's. It's. The spark can start small and build up.

[Keke Palmer]

I love that. Okay. Getting back with your ex after they've done the work. Spirit connection or not.

[Jay Shetty]

They just told you they did the work. They just told you they did the work.

[Keke Palmer]

That is so funny. So you don't feel like there's, like, if there's time.

[Jay Shetty]

I'm not a huge fan of going back to your ex as an overall, I feel like it's just like one of those patterns that you never break and then you stop looking forward because you end up with them again and again and again.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Taking a break in a relationship to find yourself. Spiritual connection or not.

[Jay Shetty]

I'd say spiritual connection. I think that's beautiful. Because if the other person's patient enough to wait for you, that actually proves that there's something powerful. So. Yeah, I like that one.

[Keke Palmer]

Matching tattoos with your boo before y'all hit the six month mark. Spiritual connection.

[Jay Shetty]

Spiritual. No. Can you imagine that? No way. No way. No matching tattoos ever.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. No matching tattoos. Jay said no. Okay. Falling in love on the first date. Spiritual connection or not. I mean, I know you don't think.

[Jay Shetty]

No way. No way. Don't do it. Don't do it. Even if they're a Virgo and they match and your star sign and everything's perfect, don't do.

[Keke Palmer]

I love how you keep it grounded. I mean, obviously that, you know, Virgo earth sign, but you keep it grounded. It's like we're in the spiritual, we're in the vibes, but also, be for real.

[Jay Shetty]

Be for real.

[Keke Palmer]

You're not falling in love on the first damn date telling someone, I love you before y'all are exclusive. Spiritual connection or no, no, no.

[Jay Shetty]

Not before you're exclusive. No way.

[Keke Palmer]

She's protecting y'all.

[Jay Shetty]

No, I am. I'm being real. It's like, no way. No. Not before you exclusive. Come on.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Jay Shetty]

That person's saying, I love you back to three people. Like, it's like. It's not good. Not good.

[Keke Palmer]

Last one. Being in a relationship where one person is growing and the other is chilling. I mean, this is obvious. Spiritual connection or not. No, no.

[Jay Shetty]

You have to be growing. Even if you're growing in different ways, you both got to be growing somewhere. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Well, Jay, that's it. That's all.

[Jay Shetty]

Thank you for coming. So nice to meet you.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm coming on your show. Please tell me when, because I can talk to you all day.

[Jay Shetty]

Yeah, me too.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Jay Shetty]

We got to hang out. We got to make this happen.

[Keke Palmer]

I can't wait.

[Jay Shetty]

You live in la.

[Keke Palmer]

I do.

[Jay Shetty]

Perfect. All right. We got to get together. Yeah. Got to get together. Awesome. Love it.

[Keke Palmer]

Y'all already know what time it is. Welcome to my new favorite part of the show. We're calling it Palmer Knows Best. And it's a space where we keep it real, we keep it fun, and we keep it a little messy, but in a good way. Now, listen, when it comes to life's biggest question, money, love, friendships, and all of that drama in between, who better to ask than a woman who's seen it all, lived it all, and Sher ain't afraid to tell it all? Hey, Sharon. Hey. How have you been?

[Sharon Palmer]

I've been good. These ain't the chairs, though, guys.

[Keke Palmer]

We've just had a whole moment about Sharon with these chairs. Like, that's a whole nother story.

[Sharon Palmer]

Nah, but I've been good. I've been doing good. How have you been doing?

[Keke Palmer]

I've been doing great. Thank you for asking. You look fat.

[Sharon Palmer]

You look good, too.

[Keke Palmer]

Thank you. Now, we've had a couple of people write into the show, okay. And so we want them to just, like, ask you questions and see what your advice is. Are you into giving advice today?

[Sharon Palmer]

Sure. I'm. I'm into giving what I feel I would do. So I'm be very clear. I'll tell you what I would do. I am not telling anyone else what to do.

[Keke Palmer]

I love that. That's good for the law.

[Sharon Palmer]

Don't. Yeah, don't send me anything. No comments, nothing. Cause this is what Sharon would do.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Help. I'm in a nightmare situation with my boyfriend's dad. For the past year and a half, this man has been making my life miserable. He calls me Horrible names, criticizes everything I eat, even meals. He cooks for me and makes creepy comments about my appearance. He even tried to police my makeup on vacation. The worst part, my boyfriend keeps defending him. He says his his dad loves me and is protective of me, but all I feel is anxiety whenever I'm around him. Even after my boyfriend asks him to stop with the name calling. His dad just got worse. Like he's trying to prove no one can tell him what to do. I know there's some complicated family history here. My boyfriend and his dad only recently started having relationship after a pretty rough childhood. But I'm at a breaking point. Just being in the same room as his dad puts me in a fight or flight mode. I love my boyfriend, but how can I make him understand that his dad's behavior isn't just jokes? Should I keep trying to make this work or am I fighting a losing battle?

[Sharon Palmer]

Fighting a losing battle. She's fighting a losing battle. Because if that son cannot control the dad and not back the dad off, it's not gonna happen.

[Keke Palmer]

My thing is why does she have to be around them?

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah. And why not have a wife? Does the dad have a wife?

[Keke Palmer]

Clearly not. He had. They, they weren't around for the childhood, so probably not. I mean, I don't. I mean, I don't know.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah. Cause I'm just trying to figure if he had a wife, then why would he be so preoccupied with his son's girl?

[Keke Palmer]

Some people are just like that where they always got something to say.

[Sharon Palmer]

Ignorant.

[Keke Palmer]

Especially if the dad wasn't around during the childhood. He probably feels like he wants to be so dad now and have all these comments and commentary. But my thing is like why do you have to be around your son in the. Why can't you just be with your boyfriend and let him have his own private time with his dad? Just remove yourself out of the equation.

[Sharon Palmer]

I mean, especially if the man is making her have anxiety.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Sharon Palmer]

And if she's telling her boyfriend, your dad doesn't, you know, I don't wanna be around your father. He should make sure she's not around the father.

[Keke Palmer]

Right.

[Sharon Palmer]

He shouldn't say, well, you know, I'm gonna go watch the game with my dad, you know, and I'll catch you later or whatever. Like, but I'm telling you, the family, them messed up ass families, that's one of the main reasons why people don't stay married. Those are the two biggest problems. Money issues and in laws.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Sharon Palmer]

I mean this is the best way that I can address this. If she see this man as somebody she want to get married to and have kids. Then they got to fix this problem asap. She cannot go into it and it being a problem. Because kids don't fix shit.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Sharon Palmer]

They just there with the problems.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right. Yeah. I agree. If she can remove herself from being a part of that dynamic, you know, I think that's a great start. But I agree with you. If you plan on really being with this guy forever, he's got to learn how to also help delegate this situation. And if he can't, then why even go any further?

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Next one. I'm a 23 year old in my first relationship with a 19 year old guy. Guy. I'm already scared and he's driving me nuts with the phone calls. We've only been dating since January, but he wants to talk for hours every single day. He needs a job. Even when there's nothing to say. He'll literally fall asleep on the phone and expect me to stay on the line. I'm more of a texter and definitely need my space. But when I'm trying to bring this up, he just doubles down on wanting calls. Everyone I know seems to think this normal couple people. But I'm feeling suffocated. I'm asexual and wasn't even looking for a relationship when this started. We're taking things super slow, but I'm worried his clingy behavior might be a deal breaker. How do I set boundaries without crushing the sweet but super needy guy?

[Sharon Palmer]

How old is she?

[Keke Palmer]

By telling the truth.

[Sharon Palmer]

How old is she?

[Keke Palmer]

She's 23.

[Sharon Palmer]

Oh. And so she babysitting.

[Keke Palmer]

That's what it's given.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah. Cause a 19 year old boy is more like a 17 year old boy.

[Keke Palmer]

Ooh, he. He must be fine. Yeah, he must be fine. Cause why?

[Sharon Palmer]

I don't know. But all that.

[Keke Palmer]

I didn't even like 19 and 19.

[Sharon Palmer]

But that's kind of like bitchy behavior though. Sharon trying to talk on the phone to her all the time. And you know, I know people gonna like guys can't be sensitive and. Yeah, yeah. But you know all of that is controlling.

[Keke Palmer]

Right.

[Sharon Palmer]

So he is a narcissist in the makeup.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. Because he's really trying to keep tabs because you can't talk to nobody if you outside at the club and doing fun stuff. You got to be at home in the bedroom. He's trying to make sure that's where you're at.

[Sharon Palmer]

That's right.

[Keke Palmer]

That's a sneaky gag that that guy is Pulling.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah. And it's all that I'm sensitive and I just want to talk to you. And women don't. You know, they're always complaining that we don't talk to them. And when I try to talk to you, girl.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Sharon Palmer]

I see that a mile away.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right. He's trying to keep her at home on that phone so she don't get involved in nothing else and live her life.

[Sharon Palmer]

And I just think that if.

[Keke Palmer]

And now it's like guilt that's keeping her there.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah, but if you have that much stress, a relationship should not be all of that. It really shouldn't. If every time he calls, you have anxiety that you gotta talk four hours, then you know he's not the. Right. Yeah, that's not. Yeah. What the hell are they talking about? And not only that, it's just not healthy. The dynamics are not healthy. And she's just needs to just chill.

[Keke Palmer]

There's already a problem, and I don't mean to say like a problem, but there's already an imbalance in the relationship when she is unable to be honest because of how he might feel about it. You know, when you start when you're in a relationship and you start to feel like you can't tell the truth and what's stopping you from telling the truth is hurting the other person's feelings. That means that you're like already at the. At the beginning of self abandoning for somebody else's comfort.

[Jay Shetty]

Right.

[Sharon Palmer]

Well, do you think he would be taking a miss or something if she said she was asexual? No.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm sure she probably knows that.

[Sharon Palmer]

Right.

[Keke Palmer]

What I'm saying is, is that you can't have a problem with being honest in your relationship because it might hurt their feelings. Now, you don't have to say you're getting on my nerves with all these phone calls, but you can say, look, baby, I can't talk on the phone all like that. If that doesn't work for you, you know, then maybe we got to reassess the relationship. Other than that, you know, this is what I can give you. If you're not able to be honest, then that means there's a problem.

[Sharon Palmer]

That's right. Or she could start falling asleep before him.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, now that I think about it, it doesn't really even matter. I guess that he's fine because she's asexual, so she's not attracted to anything. I wonder how her and this man even got together to begin with.

[Sharon Palmer]

I don't know either. But I just.

[Keke Palmer]

Because what do you like about. About him?

[Sharon Palmer]

She.

[Keke Palmer]

She don't know.

[Sharon Palmer]

She don't seem like she do. So that's the thing. She definitely don't want to talk hours upon hours about whatever is he talking about.

[Keke Palmer]

Be honest. Tell him the truth about how you feel and if he can't handle it, then he's not meant to be with you.

[Sharon Palmer]

Right, that's it.

[Keke Palmer]

You can't stay in a relationship cuz you scared to hurt his feelings.

[Sharon Palmer]

That's right. That's right. That's. That's the truth, cuz.

[Keke Palmer]

Been there. All right, next one. I'm so frustrated with my soon to be ex wife. Well, we're separated, heading for divorce and she's making it impossible for me to have a normal time with our one year old son. After she had an emotional affair with a co worker, she moved in with her parents and only let me see our son through FaceTime for three months. I finally pushed to get weekly visits and every other weekend, but she makes the nanny come along to supervise every single time. There's no court order requiring supervision, revision. I've never done anything to suggest I'm unsafe around my kid. And it feels like she's just doing this to spite me because I want a divorce. Plus, my son naturally gravitates to the nanny since she's with him every day, which makes our visits even more awkward. How do I get through to my ex that I deserve unsupervised time with my own son? Should I skip the conversation and go straight to the lawyers? Script the conversation. Go straight to the lawyers. I know nobody wants to spend money, but court is the only way that you get order in a situation that is orderless. I stand by that. That's what I believe. It takes time, it takes money. It's a lot of hard work. But in the end, everybody knows what the lines that are drawn in the sand are. And you know when to go left and you know when to go right. You can't get through to somebody that's angry with you. You can't.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah, I'm. I'm trying to figure out what is this emotional betrayal or whatever he said emotional affair.

[Keke Palmer]

That's real.

[Sharon Palmer]

She did or he did?

[Keke Palmer]

She did.

[Sharon Palmer]

Oh, okay.

[Keke Palmer]

She's the one who had the emotional affair. Now he's probably leaving out the part where he emotionally abandoned her 12 years ago. But you know how guys are.

[Sharon Palmer]

He's also leaving out the part that he want that damn nanny too.

[Keke Palmer]

He don't want the nanny.

[Sharon Palmer]

I bet he do. I bet he don't want to watch that baby by his damn self. I bet he do want.

[Keke Palmer]

He doesn't, because he feels like the nanny is impeding on the time with the child. And the mom is probably nervous because. Yeah, the baby. This is the thing. I'm not saying that dads aren't great. You know what I mean? Because they are. Dads are good just like moms are good. But the mom has the nanny too.

[Sharon Palmer]

Right.

[Keke Palmer]

So she just wants the baby to have the same care all around.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

If the. If the nanny is there helping and supporting the mom, then why shouldn't the nanny be there and supporting the daddy?

[Sharon Palmer]

Or he can have his own nanny. He can have the nanny at his house and the mama can have the nanny at his house. But I get what he's saying.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, he doesn't want the nanny at all.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah, he don't want the nanny at all.

[Keke Palmer]

Well, I think that the mom could want the nanny because she's mad at him, but I also think the mom could want the nanny because the baby has a nanny. You know, if a baby is used to having an extra, that's what the mom wants to keep on.

[Sharon Palmer]

The baby is supposed to have. Equal.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Sharon Palmer]

They can't go to the mama house and the mama got a nanny and then go to the daddy house. The daddy don't have one. So I can understand that. I do. I think what you said was right. You have to go to court. That's what the court is for. It'll give you parameters and it'll set up boundaries and he can speak his piece to the judge. And yeah, and I know a lot of people think, think, oh, the judge is against the man. It's always for the woman. But really the law says they're for the child.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Sharon Palmer]

So when you go to court, that's what they say, too. They tell you, we are here for the child, you know, and so it's not biased to the mother. It's always for the child. But a lot of time the mother does get custody because most of the time, most of the time, the mother is a good mother or at least, you know, satisfactory. And so that's why the mother wins a lot of time. But the court stands for the child.

[Keke Palmer]

And then the other side of it, too, is that the court. It's very expensive. It's very expensive and it's long winded. What does that mean? It'll keep going and keep going and keep going, and it takes forever to get to any conclusion. I wish I had a perfect answer on how to speak and connect with the other parent. Especially when there's so much hurt and pain involved. Because you're gonna always see it through the lens of the betrayal and all the negative things of whatever happened with you all. But, you know, the only thing that I know that works is going through the court.

[Sharon Palmer]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Cause it's hard to talk to people when they're mad at you.

[Sharon Palmer]

Well, the good news for the dad is that the baby's only one.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right. That is true.

[Sharon Palmer]

The baby's not gonna remember none of this.

[Keke Palmer]

Mm. Mm.

[Sharon Palmer]

So he just needs to keep working and doing what he has to do. The mom does what they have to do to set parameters so that both of them can have the time they need so that the child, by the time the child is five, when he's really knowing things and feeling things, that they have their co parenting worked out.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right. So wishing them the best. Cause that's tough. Baby this is. This is Kiki. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. Oh, yeah. Enjoy. Baby this is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby this is Keke Palmer early and ad free on Wondery. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Baby this is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke. Paul Lucas Siegel is our post producer. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer for Team Kiki. My producer is Sharon Palmer for Wondery. Our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Senior producers are Tristan McNeil and Candace Manriquez Wren. Our executive producers are Emily Feldbrake, Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty and Marshall Louie.