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Charity Lawson (3:33)

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Bachelor Happy Hour. I'm Charity.

Rachel Lindsay (3:37)

And I'm Rachel. And today we have a very special surprise guest. My favorite ex boyfriend, Clayton. Welcome to happy hour.

Clayton Echard (3:46)

Is that true? Am I your actual favorite?

Rachel Lindsay (3:49)

You know you absolutely love me. I'm not. I'm not. But I do have to apologize off the bat. Me and Charity were a little late today. I just got back from the gym, so. We've both been going to the gym lately.

Charity Lawson (4:04)

Consistent.

Sponsor Voice (4:05)

But.

Rachel Lindsay (4:05)

No, we are. We're so excited to have you on. Thank you.

Clayton Echard (4:10)

I'm excited to be here, guys. I'm excited to be here. You know, I. I deserve that. A little shout out to. Yeah, that's fine. We're. I. I would be. If I didn't think that was coming, then I. I'd be ridiculous for even showing up on here. All right, you guys.

Charity Lawson (4:23)

Exactly.

Clayton Echard (4:24)

That's the only one. Am I gonna have to just be dodging all this entire time?

Charity Lawson (4:28)

Listen, you might have to get used to dodging because we got some comment.

Clayton Echard (4:32)

Well, Rachel, you and I are both wearing black, so, like, we're matching. We're matching. So, like, we run it back a third time.

Rachel Lindsay (4:39)

I know. Yes.

Charity Lawson (4:41)

Speaking of, I'm gonna get right into it because you said the magic word. Matching. We have to talk about Perfect Match first off, because there. There's a lot of history, obviously, between you two, but starting with you, Clay and I need to understand and inquire what made you want to do Perfect Match.

Clayton Echard (5:04)

Look, I think Reality television is. Is fun at this point. Now it's like a challenge as far as, like, yourself in a foreign environment and seeing, like, how you adapt. And I think it's very psychological. I think we all know that people go on for a multitude of reasons. So it's like, we're here for the show, but who's really here for a right reason or is a right reason or who's here for fame, who's here for an actual relationship, who's trying to make themselves look good? And, like, I think the whole thing's just super psychological. So I just feel like it really tests me, and I grow a lot from these experiences. So that was the intrigue.

Charity Lawson (5:40)

Yeah. Well, I'm curious to know, like, in what ways do you feel like you've grown from Perfect Match in specific, Rachel

Clayton Echard (5:47)

will answer this too, right? I'm curious. Rachel, what about you?

Rachel Lindsay (5:50)

Listen, why did I go on?

Clayton Echard (5:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's just make this a nice little, like, three way.

Rachel Lindsay (5:55)

Yeah, yeah, no, because I am curious. I guess for me, something that was really exciting was on my journey in the Bachelor, I never got to have a season where I was by myself or a spot on paradise where I wasn't the Bachelorette. And I was really excited to go on Perfect Match because I got to just be alone or what I thought was going to be alone because Blake was the only other person I knew they were talking to. So I wanted to ask, too, were you surprised when they reached out to you?

Clayton Echard (6:26)

Oh, yeah. I mean, because I was just like, what's why now? I mean, I guess I had some videos. Like, my dance videos were, you know, being pushed around the Internet. And so that's the way they phrased it. They're like, you know, we love your dance videos, and we just want you to come on dance.

Rachel Lindsay (6:40)

And that's what they told you?

Clayton Echard (6:42)

That's what they told me. Yeah. And so I guess maybe my ego was like, you know what? I've had some videos go viral, and, like, maybe I am popping up all over the place and, like, that's. Maybe this makes sense. I'll be like, the big shock, you know, coming from outside of the Netflix universe. But then when you walked in the first day, I was like. And that's why I'm here. Yeah. So that's really. All right.

Charity Lawson (7:03)

So did you guys not know, like, you know, you hear rumblings of, like, people who might, like, join the cast? Did you know, Clayton, that Rachel was like, you know, going to be there or considered, like, to possibly be there?

Clayton Echard (7:16)

Not at all. No. The. What happened was somebody slipped up while I was there and accidentally shared that she was coming, and it was, like, completely off. It was off camera. It wasn't supposed to me. And that's what I knew about, like, two days before she showed up.

Charity Lawson (7:34)

Wow.

Charity Lawson (7:34)

Not.

Clayton Echard (7:34)

Not prior to that point.

Charity Lawson (7:36)

Wow.

Rachel Lindsay (7:37)

And so then I knew on my date, going in to the villa, so I felt, like, kind of prepared, but I don't think we could have prepared for, like, how dramatic it was. But if the Bachelor is going to do anything, it's going to bring the drama to a show that's classically very unserious.

Charity Lawson (7:54)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (7:54)

Yeah. And I like it also. It was just so fast, and I'm not here to make excuses, but I could just go back into my head for a second here. Like, it. It really pulled back all these, like, conversations we didn't have and all these feelings, like, all ripped it all right back into the forefront. Like, I was completely caught off guard. And I think, like, I also was already had a couple drinks that night, and. And I was, like, totally of sound mind, but it was just like this, like, you know, kind of, like, feel good. I'm on vacation. I'm in Tulum. Life's good, great. Like, man, how blessed am I to be here getting paid some decent money to just, like, chill with some people for 30 days. Like, I'm vibing, and then it's just like, boom, Rachel comes walking in. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And it's like, of course, like, all those, like, emotions rush back. It's like. Because prior to that point, I mean, Rachel, you and I had, like, we've. We've been in a couple spots, you know, like, over the course of the years, like, we've run into each other, but it's like, obviously we're not in the same city. We're not bumping into each other that often. So it's like two years goes by, we see each other, two years goes by, and then it's like there's a lot to catch up with. Right. So I just completely was overwhelmed. And of course, that's what you saw played on screen was I was just like, my brain was just fluttering all over the place. So. But that's, you know, of course, it's like, once she came in, I was like, this is why they have us here. And this was the main. It was the main storyline.

Rachel Lindsay (9:13)

Yeah, they loved playing that in the trailer. I'm curious. I know that you've been. You've been really Vocal about producers and your edit on the Bachelor. What did you think was going to be different coming over to Netflix?

Clayton Echard (9:31)

Different team, so just different results. But what I. What I found was that it's not the producers, it's the editors. And I think I unfairly blamed the producers on the Bachelor when it's really. To me, it's the editors that just basically take footage and they decide, look, like there's no nuance. Unless you're on a show like Love island, where they're showing every single day, they don't have time to edit, so they show you as you are. But when they got, you know, 16 hours of footage and they got to pack it into one episode, they're like, let's just, like, there's no time for nuance, so you're good or bad. And I think that's, like, where I should have known that going into Perfect Match, that the formatting was the same. So it's like, okay, we have someone who's good and someone who's bad. You can't be anywhere in between because we don't have time to, like, draw, you know, basically portray nuance. So I thought that in different network, like, it could be a redemption thing, and I could just be my fun self and I wouldn't be at the center of drama. But then, of course, like, the second that they bring in an ax from a previous show, it's like, you're bringing all of that back.

Charity Lawson (10:28)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (10:28)

Which means I'm already now on Under Fire again for, like, the same thing. Unless I act differently. And I don't. I don't regret. You know, I don't regret. I Can. Can we say that it was. It was messy, of course, but, like, I don't regret, like, giving it an initial chance because I was, like, the safe thing to do would have just been like, you know, stay away from. So great to see you. That's the safe thing. But, like, I truly believe that, like, I'm. I'm just never going to choose the safe thing. I'm going to choose the thing that feels right in the moment. We can all sit here and be like, clayton, maybe you should pick up on things a little faster. That's fine.

Charity Lawson (11:00)

I said hello.

Clayton Echard (11:03)

We can all say that. Like, I and I. And honestly, I've learned as I've grown up, like, I grew up in a household again, I'm just going to explain what I think is. Has occurred. I grew up in a household of old boys. We never talked about emotions. So, like, new to me. So me like, feeling my way through emotions, presenting them. Like people said on the Bachelor, I was cold at points, and it definitely read that way, but it was because I was crying behind closed doors. So I showed up. It was like, I'm like, I can't cry in front of women. That's. That's. I was told never to do that as a man. So, like, it's. But the course that's perceived is, like, he's just staring at this woman cold, you know, while they're looking at. While they look at him in tears. So the same thing, though. Like, as I've evolved and went to therapy and all that, like, I'm still learning. Like, these emotions are new to me, so. So, like, I think people are on the. They hit the nail on the head when they're like, he means well. He's just, like, not quite picking it up quick enough, and it's like, that's fair. I'm not. I don't disagree with that.

Charity Lawson (11:52)

Yeah, you mentioned, like. Like, producers and kind of going in and, like, it all kind of being very similar. Do you ever feel or, like, felt, I should say, or sense in the moment when you saw Rachel was there and, like, you guys, I guess, making that ultimate, like, decision to, like, try and rekindle. Did you ever in your head possibly think, like, oh, this is, like, maybe a bait that they're setting up for me to, like, kind of fought? Oh, no, no.

Clayton Echard (12:19)

I mean. I mean, but to that. Your point, like, that's exactly what they were doing.

Charity Lawson (12:23)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (12:24)

All I did, I just saw her come in, and she just started cheese and smiling at me, like, Rachel.

Charity Lawson (12:29)

Oh.

Clayton Echard (12:30)

And I just felt that. I felt that emotion of, like, oh, my gosh, look who it is. And I wasn't like, stay away, dude. You're gonna screw this all up all over again. I was just in the moment, and, like, when she walked in, I was like. I felt this rush of, like, what's going on here? Like, what's happening? Yeah. And, like, there's. There's. There's still. There were strong feelings. Then there's always.

Charity Lawson (12:49)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (12:49)

I obviously admire you, Rachel. Like, I think you're a great human being. And, like, obviously we connected originally because there was substance there, right? So, like, all of a sudden, you just, like, throw someone back in the mix again, and you're. All those feelings flood back up. And I was just telling myself, like, Clayton, act upon how you feel. Don't think about, like, how will this be perceived and where beheaded, because then I can't be present with her in that mom. So I'm like, shut all that, all that overthinking out and just be here right in front of her. And that's what I was doing. So, yeah, of course it was a setup. I mean. Yeah, I just was like, don't think about what. How it's going to be seen. Just be here.

Charity Lawson (13:26)

Did you.

Charity Lawson (13:26)

I'm gonna ask both of you guys, did you guys ever think at a point, like, oh, this could possibly, like, what if this works out? Or, like, we might, like, rekindle and,

Rachel Lindsay (13:35)

like, I don't think we had time. We, like, saw each other that night, and then the next day, I didn't see you at all.

Clayton Echard (13:43)

Yeah. And. And I went through. In my head. I mean, I like, fast forwarded overnight while I was laying in bed, you know, just like, thinking about if this works. And I was like, fast forwarding to the future and our discussions we were having. And I was like. I was like, putting, like, in my head a family. I was like, if we were, you know, like, how, like, I was racing all of it fast in my head because I was just like, hey, I can't mess this up. Like, I've already hurt her. Like, I really do care about her as a person. So, like, I need to make sure that I feel like I'm. I'm right about this. Right? Like, because if I'm wrong, I have to then, like, I can't do this again to her, you know, so. And that was where, like, I. I was laying in bed. Like, I don't know if it took me. Probably took me a while, 45 minutes to actually fall asleep. Like, I was just laying there just thinking. And then I woke up in the morning and I was like, okay, I'm feeling a, you know, a gut feeling, and let me just give it a little bit more time. But, like, I really just want to, like, make sure that again, I make this decision, but I make it fully and I feel strongly about the decision I make, but also, like, I don't track this out. Like, it was really uncomfortable. I mean, even, like, on this. This interview, it's like I feel something in my stomach, you know, Like, I feel like this, like, nerve. And Rachel's always been super sweet, and outside of coming a couple times, she throws some. Some cuts at me on podcast. But we talk about it offline. And, like, again, it's not anything major. Like, I've always been grateful because, like, I can understand being like, dude, get your together. And, like, could you just figure it out quicker? And, like, it just be a little like, it's like, yeah, no, that's fair. That's all fair. But we've had a lot, you know, a few offline discussions on the phone. And like, I, I think there is a mutual respect and I at least feel that. And I've always been really grateful that, you know, that you've, you know, we can sit here and we can have these conversations and be cordial and we can also admit that, like, yeah, I'm still a work in progress and I'm still learning. Like, I just, I. And I'm open about it, you know, and I, I mess up. But I mean, I don't know, I guess that's just like we went on reality television and that's. We found ourselves in the same place twice.

Charity Lawson (15:42)

Yeah.

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Charity Lawson (20:17)

I would like to like to mention that this is technically you guys first conversation since perfect match, like, 101.

Clayton Echard (20:26)

Like, publicly, yes, we've talked on the phone.

Rachel Lindsay (20:30)

Yeah, we've spoken. But, yeah, publicly. This is our first convers, like, conversation together.

Charity Lawson (20:36)

Amazing.

Clayton Echard (20:37)

Yeah. I mean, again, like, every time I pop on here, it's one thing on a phone call, but when you see, like, each other's face, I just don't know. I don't know how you don't feel that those, like, emotions, like, it's not like, they just, like, cease to exist. So. Yeah. And I think it's funny that you can make. You can give me trouble about the whole gym thing. It's fair. Like, again, I don't want to ever have, like, bad relationships with people. Like, I can screw up, but I'm like, hey, as long as, like, we can admit, like, I've done some wrong and I can grow from it. Like, hopefully we can all forgive each other. I mean, I don't like that I have technically some beef with another ex that, like, I never talked to that we're aware of. But, like, I don't like it. I don't like it. Deep down, like, I don't like the fact that, like, where did this. Like, why can't we just be cool? You know? Like, why does it have to be all this nuts?

Charity Lawson (21:22)

Yeah, well. Well, Clayton, don't shy away now.

Rachel Lindsay (21:24)

Like I was gonna say, you say you don't like it, but you keep getting yourself in these situations.

Clayton Echard (21:32)

Okay, hold. Well, hold on.

Charity Lawson (21:33)

He said, hold on.

Clayton Echard (21:34)

Gabby.

Bowen Yang (21:35)

There we go.

Charity Lawson (21:36)

We love a name everyone knows.

Clayton Echard (21:40)

After my dancing, and it was just, like, unnecessary because it was like, gabby. Like, I felt like, gab, you had your own season. You had your own guys. Like, why are you going, like, skipping them? Go out. Like, like, you're going. You're going right at me, and it's like, I'm over here. Just like. Honestly, it was very vulnerable for me to dance. Like, I. Look, I'm not stupid.

Charity Lawson (21:57)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (21:58)

I know my dancing capacity. Like, I. I'm a white dude trying to pick up hip hop. Like, it was rough for a long while. I just probably in the last, like, you know, six months, started to get all of a sudden having a little flow where it was like, okay, wait, you can kind of show up now. But prior to that point, like, it was very vulnerable. And I did really, like, I was getting bothered by a lot of the comments, but I kept telling myself, keep posting, keep posting, because, like, just keep pushing through this and like, eventually, like, you will end up being seen as a solid dancer, but you'll just. Or you'll find the confidence and, like, that's the biggest thing you want. So for her to, like, all of a sudden then draw attentional. Additional attention on me and was like, you know, he's basically. He's bad at dancing. I was just like, gabby, why? Like, I've already been fighting through this mountain of. Of negativity, and, like, then you just. Yeah. On top of me, and I haven't even said your name in years. That's where I was upset. And I was just like, I have to respond and stand up for myself. Like, I don't. I need to. Like, I need to be able to just stand up and say something. And so I did thought I was fairly fair. Like, I don't think I was, like, going after her, you know.

Charity Lawson (22:58)

No, I think. Yeah, I would agree. I think obviously there's like, two sides and two perspectives on the entire situation. But I. I will say from the outside looking in, like, obviously, if you understand or know context into why you got into dancing to begin with, I think that's very admirable. I will say, and I'll give you your flowers here, Clayton, for that. And so I think a lot of people, obviously, it's just. They're quick to, like, jump on something, quick to, like, pal onto people. And I think that's where we've kind of strayed away in social media in general. It's just really rough and hard. So mad respect to you for that. But, yeah, it was kind of interesting to see kind of like, Gabby, maybe throw that out and be like, okay, like, in my world, I'm like, just let the man dance. Let, you know, mind your business type situation. But I do think, like, yes, the bigger conversation was, okay, we probably shouldn't. I don't want to say bully, but, yes, bully. Essentially, like, you know, her remarks were not the nicest or probably not kind

Clayton Echard (23:58)

comments necessary and, like, just like, it's not that big of a deal. And I'm like. But yeah, all about how the. The person, you know, perceives it. Right. So, like, for you to, like, their intention. I haven't. I haven't. People have called me way worse. So I was like. And like, yes, I'm not really that upset by it. It's more just.

Charity Lawson (24:13)

Right.

Clayton Echard (24:13)

It's like, if I let her walk all over me, then everyone else will too, you know? Whereas if I stand up for myself, people might be like, okay, he's gonna fire back. And, and you know, and it, and it did backfire a bit. I feel like it didn't make her look the greatest and I was just like, it just hopefully going forward guy be like, you just don't do that to somebody. Like just go after somebody, you know, because what if I went after you for, you know, something equivalent, like it would. Well, but my whole thing is this is like if you have a problem with me that just like call me.

Charity Lawson (24:39)

Have you guys not talked ever?

Rachel Lindsay (24:41)

Like, I don't think she cares. I mean, I think, I think it is fair to say though that Gabby does have the right and you, I think are in a lucky position where you do still have a friendship with Susie and me and you are on good terms. But I think it is so fair for Gabby to not want to be a part of that and not want to call you. I mean she is a dancer, so I feel like she might have just, you know, Gabby, she, she makes fun of herself, she makes fun of everyone. I think it started off like innocent. It did, you know, obviously go really far between the both of you. But I, I guess the question I want to ask, it feels like something that's like a common thread with you is you don't like being misunderstood by the public and you really feel the need to like defend yourself in these situations. Is that something you think is true,

Clayton Echard (25:34)

that statement you just made?

Rachel Lindsay (25:35)

Yeah, like I feel like you, you tend to like over explain a little bit because you don't like feeling misunderstood and it can kind of get you into positions.

Clayton Echard (25:44)

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I feel like I'm very misunderstood. I mean I, I, and, and where this comes from is just what I've read online, you know, the feedback, the DMs, the, the blogs, you know, saying he's, People assume that I've always been this superstar athlete that got all the girls. And it's like I used to be very small. I was bullied, I was friend zoned by girls. I was called big brother. I was a terrible athlete, you know, and so like for me it's like you're, you're judging me based on what I look like today and you're treating me like I've been that stereotypical douchebag that like, that just has always gotten his way and it couldn't be the truth. So like my ego does get very upset and agitated with the fact that like people throw that on me. And like he's just 6 foot 5 white guy that's full of himself, that's always had everything given to him. And it's like, no, I've worked really hard to acquire what I have. Like, everything I've gotten has all been through hard work, and I feel like it goes unacknowledged. And so that part of it, yes, I have an inflamed ego at times where I'm like, I'm so sick of you all trying to discredit the hard work that I've put in. And you're. You're trying to say that I'm this when I'm not. Like, I would just see me as I am, but it doesn't seem like any of you want to see me as I am. You want to place upon my shoulders what you want me to be, which I feel is unfair. I. I really. I don't. I don't believe at all I'm anywhere near that. You know, cocky, full of himself. D bag that has, you know, just always gotten his way. Like, my life perception is completely different. So. And I'm trying to inspire people to be like, hey, you can build this too. If you're not happy with your life, you can also acquire these things through hard work and determination. Like, that's the message I'm trying to send.

Bowen Yang (27:24)

And it just.

Clayton Echard (27:25)

It really feels like it's just blocked left and right every. Everywhere I go. I will. So I will say I feel like I've explained myself less recently. Like, I'm not going on as much a podcast to try to explain who I am anymore. But, yeah, certainly you're. You're on. You're right. With that being something that I've been on a mission to try to do for so long is try to get people to see me for what I believe I am, which is, I don't feel is in alignment with what the perception has perceived or the public has perceived me in the past.

Charity Lawson (27:53)

Mm.

Clayton Echard (27:54)

Like, I'm not a saint. I've tried to tell people that from the jump. Like, I'm like, I am not a saint. Like, that's why this podcast that I have, you know, released right now, I told the producers, I said, portray me as I am. Like, the problem is, is when you try to make me seem like I'm this saint, like, just good old Missouri boy. Which I'm like, yeah, I got good Missouri roots. But, like, I'm also like, yeah, you're

Rachel Lindsay (28:15)

a bad boy, too.

Clayton Echard (28:16)

I don't know if I'm a bad boy. Wouldn't say that. But, I mean, I don't know. I guess it depends who you ask. But, like, I'm just not a saint. It felt to me I was getting death threats. I was getting people saying worst Bachelor ever, you know.

Sponsor Voice (28:26)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (28:27)

Trashing me left and right wherever they could. The follow up season with you and you and Gabby, Rachel, like, well, the

Rachel Lindsay (28:32)

same thing happened to me.

Charity Lawson (28:34)

No, I was going to say, I think there's like, yeah, you guys, like, entire like universe of just being a lead in itself, but going on reality tv, it's like, again, not to excuse it and it's not something that we obviously have to be okay with, but it is. There's a level of. Or an expectation in Rachel. You mentioned this last week on our recording with Rachel Lindsay, is that we then step into this zone or arena where we are, everything that we do has to be without flaw. Like, we are not. We don't even get the grace to make an error or mistake, which is the reality. And anyone who watches the show, if they were to step in our positions, they would so, so quickly learn that it is impossible to literally do this without making a mistake. Even people who are deemed perfect, their errors are there trust and believe.

Clayton Echard (29:25)

Like, I. There was a safe path when I was the Bachelor for me to be able to not be seen as a bad guy. Like, and I chose not to take that. And it was like, you know, I'm going to go follow my heart and I'm going to push through this. But there was a point at which I didn't have to, you know, like, I could have just went a different direction and stayed away from any type of, like, massive blow up. I mean, for the most part, you know, our season that we were on together, Rachel and I, like, it was. I would say it's pretty boring. Like, overall, it was tracking towards boring. Like, boring typical love story. And like, that's what happens is leads are like, hey, if I. I'm supposed to lock in with one person and then I'll be given, you know, this great edit because, like, if I stay away from the drama and I lock in with one person, everyone's like, oh, like, it's such an incredible love story.

Rachel Lindsay (30:11)

I'll be honest, we had some pretty good villains. Clayton. I don't know if that's true. I lived in that house. Well, and you kept those villains around for a while.

Charity Lawson (30:18)

I say y' all season was crazy.

Charity Lawson (30:20)

Truly.

Clayton Echard (30:20)

Yeah. But we're not gonna go into, like, why they were kept around so long. You can only say so much.

Rachel Lindsay (30:25)

So we're allowed to talk about it now.

Clayton Echard (30:28)

So I don't know. I don't I don't trust it.

Charity Lawson (30:30)

We won't. We won't spend time talking about that today, what we're gonna do. I. I do appreciate you, Clayton. Obviously you're always so open. But I think the real reason is that I want to dive in and learn so much more about your podcast. I was very fortunate to listen to two episodes and it's been amazing. Obviously, I know you've had a crazy past few years, months, so I would love to know and you can kind of just take us through, like your podcast. What's it about? You know, what was that like? Building it up. Tell us everything.

Clayton Echard (31:05)

Yeah, I mean, so look like the podcast, basically it's all centered around me and a paternity scandal that ended up also involving multiple other victims. And this is a now 10, I call like a 10 year operation that this woman is. Has been conducting with, with involvement from her family. So it's a family or, you know, ordeal that they've orchestrated over the years to try to destroy men and their reputation of men that don't want to be with her. So she, you know, with a lack of self love, tries to attack and destroy the man to make, you know, him feel as poorly as she does. That's my belief as why she. As far as why she does it. But like, this podcast basically takes you through the entire three years that I have been spending fighting this woman. So it takes you to the very beginning and then it takes you through all the emails, the text messages, you know, the courts appearances, and it takes you all the way through that to where we get to at the end of the podcast, which will lead up right into the end of July, which is when she is facing 14 felony charges. So she faces trial at the end of July here. So to me, this is a bridge. Like this podcast, really, what it's meant to do is to keep the fire hot so that we don't lose momentum going into this court case because she was offered an appeal. And I personally don't feel like it was enough to hold her accountable. And to me, if she gets off, she'll do it again if she gets a slap on the wrist. So really, this is just one issue. Like, I'm fortunate because I have, you know, privilege to be a former lead of a show. So, like, that's probably why. Exactly. That's actually exactly why I got all the attention it got in the first place. These other men are private figures. They didn't get that attention. So they didn't have help and support. Like what I've been able to pull in. So, you know, really we're just now just account trying to band together and get accountability to be had. So that's what this podcast really is, is just a bridge into that final, you know, hearing on the, you know, late July to hopefully get her locked up. That's what we're shooting for.

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Rachel Lindsay (38:07)

I was going to Ask what is your ideal outcome for this situation? You want her in prison?

Clayton Echard (38:12)

Felon with five to ten years. Yeah, that would be like my, you know, hope. And it's. I don't think it's unwarranted. I know some people have said like, oh, well, she didn't kill anybody. She said that herself. But I don't, I don't like that excuse. I think she really severely plagued my mental health and the mental health of the other men. And while none of us have, you know, taken our lives, like, we got to points where we were very dark thoughts. And I'm like, you know, really, if it was up to her, she wouldn't have cared. And it was our decision to make whether we just, you know, we stayed or went. And so I'm like, she might as well have had tried to take us out. So I don't take it lightly. I don't take mental health lightly. I'm like, look, I think she deserves every bit of time behind bars. She still admits that, you know, she's still fighting it. She's. She's still saying she's not guilty. So she hasn't had any accountability from the get go. So it's like the only thing we can do then is just like, you know, lock her up. And then hopefully in that isolation, she'll, you know, mentally break down and start to unpack what is so deeply rooted within her.

Charity Lawson (39:14)

Yeah. Do you mind me asking, how is your mental health? Like, I feel like in the present day, after, I mean, you're still kind of obviously involved and it's still ongoing, but how do you feel like it's upheld itself.

Clayton Echard (39:29)

Yeah, I was, I was just on like, chat GBT this morning actually, because, like, they've gotten. I've been very much tested, like this year in 2026, with just like, life things, with work, family things here and there and like, and just close friends. It's like, there's been a lot of, like, issues popping up that have all hit at once. And like, so for me, it's just been, you know, a time of like, a lot of, like, I have to have really great resiliency. And, you know, but also I'm like, hey, look, like I'm no longer trying to really prove myself. Like, I'm not spending as much energy trying to prove myself. I'm just, you know, putting myself out there as I am. But, like, now that I am not a people pleaser anymore, because I would say I probably ridden myself of that. I'm like, what am I? What's driving me if it's not me trying to prove my worth and like, driving me. So I say all that to say, like, I had a very deep, like, thought process this morning, so it's fresh on my mind is fine. It's just like I'm in this like, reflective stage of my life where I'm like, if I'm not. If the motivation to prove my worth is not the main driving driver, than what is? And I'm in this like, weird in between stage where it's like, well, I don't have anything to prove, so why do I need to like, you know, show up and try to, you know, be great today? And it's like, well, one, two. But all that to say, like, there's always something spinning in my head.

Charity Lawson (40:47)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (40:48)

So thanks for asking. But like, yeah, it's just like, look, I have, like, everything is great. I mean, overall, like, everything. It's all perspective. Like, I'm just. Yeah, I'm just like, I really feel like I went most of my life with my brain switched off. No, like, emotions were ever really discussed or thought about. Like, I didn't really feel, like, I didn't really know what emotions I was feeling. I was just like, existing. And then all of a sudden, like, I. I'll never forget, I said in college to one of my exes, she said she was having an anxiety attack. I said, why? I said, why don't you just, like, not think about it? Like, that's how ignorant I was to emotions.

Charity Lawson (41:19)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (41:21)

I was like, well, I just don't think about it. You know, that, that. And that's why I don't get anxiety. I said that serious. I guess not how it works. But like, that was how ignorant I was to emotions and regulation. So, like, I'm still like, okay from that point removed. I don't know, seven years. And it's like, you know, meanwhile, women are just emotional, you know, like, they're, they're, they're very, like, emotionally regulated and they, they mature faster. So I feel like I'm playing catch up. I'm like, I'm a guy absent from doing this. So now I'm just trying to, like, get to a place where like, I can be caught up and act my age.

Charity Lawson (41:53)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (41:54)

Or a little, maybe.

Charity Lawson (41:55)

Yeah.

Rachel Lindsay (41:56)

Yeah. I mean, I listened to both the episodes. I thought the narrator, I think she does like, a really awesome job at telling the story. How did you get approached for this? Was it you that was seeking out a platform?

Clayton Echard (42:09)

No, I, I had like, companies keep reaching out time I probably had five companies that reached out, and probably three of them I was. I said no to, because I just didn't think the production quality was there, but there was interest. People were like, hey, we want to really tell your story. We think this is. This. This needs to be heard. And. And so then when they reached out, I did some background on, like, what they had, you know, created prior, and I was like, this is actually, like, to the level that I would want it to be told at. Like, I don't want to just, like, podcast to do a podcast. I want to be able to, like, put something out there that is impactful and that will make a difference, and we'll share, you know, the story in the way that it needs to be told. And Stephanie has become a close, you know, good friend of mine. Now she's listening to me talk so much that, like, I've gotten tired of talking to her, only because I'm tired of hearing, but she's like, hey, like, she listens to all of it. She's a great listener. And I was like, this is the right person. Like, it's a lot of information. So, yeah, it just happened to kind of manifest. And I was. I didn't want to do the podcast at first. I only wanted, like. I was like, I'm only doing this if it's a documentary. But then they convinced me, and, you know, and I'm glad I did it, like, at this point. It's been so cool to see the other victims, how, like, hope has, like, come back into them. Like, they. They lost it for a long period of time. And so I've seen the strength come back, and. And it's just like, wow, this has become bigger than me. Not to mention, like, the 20 to 30, you know, DMs I've gotten of men or. Or women that know, like, their brother that's went through something similar. It's like, okay, this is actually, you know, inspiring and giving people hope. Like, there's something bigger here. So if we platform it to a higher degree, maybe this, you know, impacts even more people.

Charity Lawson (43:47)

Yeah.

Rachel Lindsay (43:47)

I noticed when I was listening that Susie was interviewed. Has she been supportive during all this, or what's her role been in all this?

Clayton Echard (43:56)

Yeah, she was. She was, like, in the. I would say, in the mix of it. Like, I. I think I kind of talked about this in the podcast, or I've said it in other podcasts. I had seen Susie like, a week and a half prior to me actually, like, hooking up with this Laura girl.

Charity Lawson (44:12)

Wow.

Clayton Echard (44:13)

So I was really, really bothered by, like, when I met up with Susie, like, a lot of the old emotions came back, and it was like, maybe we should try this again. And, like, it was a lot of those feelings. And so I end up, you know, getting, like. I went home and I was, like, using marijuana heavily to, like, cope, because I was just trying to numb myself, because I just. I felt overwhelmed with emotion, and it was just. I was like, I just need to, like, cut this feeling out. I can't handle this with sober mind. So as, like, it started to begin, like, I had just seen her, so we were already kind of, like, just chatting a little bit, and I shared this with her. And. And so then she was just kind of, like, in the background, you know, just like, provide me, like, well, hey, I support you, and. And whatever I can do to help. So she was. She was there at, like, the beginning of it, and that's why, you know, they approached her because I had brought up. I was like, yeah, the reason why I even, like, was under the influence of marijuana that night and decided to engage with this Laura girl was because, like, I was, like, medicating myself with marijuana, like, just trying to cope with the emotions that were coming up from, like, the previous weekend when I was.

Charity Lawson (45:19)

Oh, wow.

Clayton Echard (45:20)

With her. Oh, yeah. That's how that came about.

Charity Lawson (45:24)

Oh, my goodness.

Rachel Lindsay (45:25)

Yeah. This is just such a crazy story. I mean, I feel like a lot of people do know about it, but there's a huge majority that don't.

Charity Lawson (45:33)

Right.

Rachel Lindsay (45:33)

What's the message that you want to get out, like, with this podcast?

Clayton Echard (45:38)

Yeah, I mean, a couple things. I think the two would be, you know, fight for yourself, because no one will fight as hard as you do. I mean, I think, yeah, be like, you know, I decided to. When she went public, I decided to throw a, you know, microscope on it, and I was like, you know, Meg, to grab the megaphone. I was like, hey, if we're gonna do this, like, oh, outlet. Like, I got nothing to hide, guys. So, like, right, I'm gonna fight for justice, and I'm gonna bring you all along. Like, I'm not going to be ashamed of what, you know, I've done. And, you know, I'm just going to defend myself because if I don't do it, no one is, and she'll take advantage of me. So I would say, you know, just stand up, like, if you feel like you've been wrong, like, fighting for yourself. And then also just, I hope this inspires people or just, like, shows them the power of of, you know, many. So the power of a community. I mean, this wouldn't be a podcast, you know, I wouldn't have gotten legal representation and this wouldn't have made it as far as it has if it wasn't for this community that's, you know, that has revolved around me and the other men and, you know, has paid legal fees at times for us and for the end to end and push this along and uncovered new information. It really shows like the power of a community. So, you know, if you think like, no one's going to, you know, support me, you don't know obviously, until you speak up. And when I spoke up, I had no idea that this magnitude of, of, of a community would be created. So hopefully it gets other people to be like, hey, maybe if I speak up, I'll have some support there that can help me as well.

Sponsor Voice (47:01)

For sure.

Charity Lawson (47:02)

No, I mean, I just cannot imagine. I really can't. Like, I know it is really so like, even just like I was telling Rachel, like listening to your first two episodes, like, I've followed some of majority of the case, but just like the intricate details, it's just so mind blowing. And I obviously, like, I commend you for even just having the courage to speak out about this, but I know obviously there's like a deeper intention and reason which I know for a fact, like you said, you are helping so many other people who find them themselves, unfortunately in these situations. But we are obviously rooting for you, Clayton. Like, we are happy to have you and talk about this anytime. But before we go, I do want to end the episode with something super, super fun, a little more light hearted. This is a crazy question I'm gonna ask you, but I need your full transparent. No, don't get scared.

Charity Lawson (48:01)

Relax.

Clayton Echard (48:01)

It's not that I'm not scared. I'm not.

Charity Lawson (48:02)

I like that face you made.

Clayton Echard (48:04)

You're like, you said, this is like the craziest cause like of everything we've already said.

Charity Lawson (48:07)

I mean, I'm just.

Rachel Lindsay (48:08)

No, it's.

Charity Lawson (48:09)

Yeah. I'm just curious what your answer is going to be. Okay, so we're going to do a little. Would you rather so. But only you only get two options. Okay. Get casted on Dancing with the Stars, but unfortunately you're eliminated the very first week. Or go get cast on Taylor Frankie Paul's bachelorette season, but she says no to your proposal at the very end. So you're one of the final two. Not that. Not the.

Clayton Echard (48:40)

That's actually, like I said, if. I said if I went on Dancing with the Stars ever. I was like, I just would not want to get sent home night one. That's exactly the same concern I had when I went on the Bachelorette. I was like, I don't want to get sent home night one. But, I mean, it's kind of like. It's kind of.

Charity Lawson (49:00)

They're both. They're both hard. Technically, if you were a final two, you. That means you're.

Charity Lawson (49:06)

You're.

Charity Lawson (49:06)

I would hope that you're invested at that point.

Clayton Echard (49:10)

Yeah, I mean, I guess. I guess. See, I can't, like, overanalyze this whole thing. I was like, yeah, obviously, I would be into her at that point. I would be like, oh, I really like this girl.

Charity Lawson (49:18)

Right.

Clayton Echard (49:21)

That's hard. I don't know. You know, I.

Rachel Lindsay (49:25)

You not picking Dancing at the Stars immediately is throwing me off,

Charity Lawson (49:31)

because that's

Rachel Lindsay (49:31)

such an honor, I think. Cast.

Clayton Echard (49:34)

That was my first thought, but then I was, like, starting to overthink it. I was like, well, to be honest with you, like, I'm not trying to say anything here. And she's. I'm probably not her type, but, like, Taylor, Frankie, Paul is just not my type. So I was like, I wouldn't. Like, I wouldn't make it to the final two, so that's not really realistic. But if I did, like, because I

Rachel Lindsay (49:48)

might be her type.

Clayton Echard (49:50)

I don't know.

Charity Lawson (49:50)

Yeah, you never know.

Clayton Echard (49:51)

But I also wouldn't stick it out. Just to stick it out all the way to the end.

Charity Lawson (49:54)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Clayton Echard (49:54)

Like, that's just not. I don't. I wouldn't care to do that. So. Yeah, I guess it would be Dance with the Stars. I mean, as long as I get that initial paycheck, we're good.

Charity Lawson (50:03)

And listen, they always bring back the entire cast at the finale, so you will get more than one opportunity to dance and showcase your skin.

Clayton Echard (50:12)

Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I guess that would be the simple answer. I don't know why I am.

Charity Lawson (50:17)

No, okay. I. Yeah, I get that. I think I was expecting that answer out of you.

Rachel Lindsay (50:21)

Me too.

Chelsea Handler (50:22)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (50:23)

Okay. Well, that was good. That was fun, guys. I. Yeah, thanks. I. I appreciate you, obviously, just giving me a platform to talk about this, and it's always.

Charity Lawson (50:31)

Yeah.

Clayton Echard (50:32)

Like, you guys have been both super great, obviously. Charity, I got to talk to you. I think the first time. Was It. Was it Grant? Afr. That was the first time.

Charity Lawson (50:38)

Yeah, it was afr.

Clayton Echard (50:39)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's awesome, you and Dot and, like, how great things are going. From what I can see, you guys are just super sweet. So it's like, obviously this process, you know, does work very well and it's like, cool to see you guys going strong and then, you know, then Rachel and I will find our. Well, Rachel, you actually. Last I heard, little birdie, you were at least at one point talking to somebody.

Rachel Lindsay (51:07)

Please, I can't even get into that. Cut this whole thing.

Bowen Yang (51:12)

Are we dropping.

Charity Lawson (51:13)

Pause. Are we dropping gyms right now or is yours.

Clayton Echard (51:16)

I mean, I.

Rachel Lindsay (51:17)

We're not talking. We're cutting this.

Clayton Echard (51:20)

Like you said. Like, I was afraid to say Gabby's name earlier, so I'm not afraid. I'll just. I'll also say this other person's name.

Charity Lawson (51:24)

Okay?

Rachel Lindsay (51:25)

And they're gonna cut it out. This is my podcast. Bye, Clayton.

Charity Lawson (51:30)

Here we go. You know, we're gonna leave things as they are in a good standing because I just love peace and happiness for all parties involved. So with that being said, thank you, Clayton, again, we appreciate you coming on. I appreciate you and your vulnerability and your courage to speak out on all things, but truly, I think it's really important. And as you know, I'm a huge advocate for mental health, so I really do look up to you for that and respect you for that. But that's all that we're going to talk about on today's episode. But we would love to have you back anytime. Please feel free to come. But yeah, with that being said, thank you so much for coming on. And that's it. Rachel, anything you want to add to that?

Rachel Lindsay (52:15)

No. Thank you, Clayton, for coming on. I'm sure it was not easy to log on and have to face me and Charity's questions, but you did amazing and we look forward to listening to the rest of the podcast. It all. I'm hooked already, so everyone go listen to that if you get the chance. And thank you again for coming on and you guys make sure to like and subscribe. We'll have new episodes soon and we don't have an ending yet. If you have any ideas, Clayton, next time. Bye.

Sponsor Voice (52:40)

Bye.

Sponsor Voice (52:45)

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Bowen Yang (54:48)

This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture Research with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. We all know the feeling when life gets really busy. Taking care of yourself can feel impossible. That's why Premier Protein shakes are my go to. They have 30 grams of protein, 160 calories, no added sugar, and they taste amazing. So they're a healthy choice you'll actually want to make. It's not just for fitness. It's for getting after life. 30 grams of protein gives you the fuel you need. It's not just for intense gym sessions. It's for life. With the wide variety of flavors from cafe latte to cake batter, it never feels boring. There's a flavor for everyone. I personally love the peaches and cream, but maybe you're a root beer floater, cinnamon roll kind of person. Premier Protein empowers me to say yes to more. Find your favorite flavor@premierprotein.com that's P R E M I E R protein.com or at Amazon, Walmart and other major retailers

Chelsea Handler (55:47)

this is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea after the Big Game. Like most people, I kept thinking about the commercials, and there was one that stayed with me. It was from the Blue Square Alliance Against Hate, and it wasn't loud or flashy. It showed a Jewish kid being targeted at school and another student who chose not to ignore it. As someone who was Jewish, that moment felt very real to me. Not dramatic, just familiar. And what struck me was how clearly it showed that hate doesn't always announce itself, but the impact is still huge. If you saw the Blue Square spot during the Big Game, it's worth thinking about. And if you want to show support, sharing the Blue Square is one small way to do that.

Clayton Echard (56:24)

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Podcast Advertiser (56:27)

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