Backpacker Radio's Origin Story, Evolution, and Behind the Scenes with Zach and Chaunce (BPR #360)

Summary

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Backpacker Radio #360: Origin Story, Evolution, and Retrospective with Zach & Chaunce

Episode Overview

Theme:
This rare co-host-only episode features Zach "Badger" Davis and Juliana "Chaunce" Chauncey telling the complete story of Backpacker Radio: its spontaneous origins, their evolving dynamic, hilarious technical mishaps, behind-the-scenes crew, favorite and dream guests, and thoughtful listener Q&A. Lighthearted, sincere, and full of banter, this episode provides an unfiltered look at what it takes to sustain a long-running, beloved podcast in the thru-hiking world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Weather Banter, Life Updates, & Announcements

• Chaunce laments the sudden Denver cold; Zach celebrates unexpected precipitation for lowering fire risk.
• Fundraiser shout-out for Akuna, former guest recovering from a stroke.
• Announcement of Chaunce’s live “send-off” show before her move (08:07).
• Podcast merch, co-host applications, Patreon updates—all shared in the duo's signature irreverent tone.

2. The True Origin Story of Backpacker Radio

• Initial Spark:

  • Zach's lifelong love affair with radio, from sneaking Walkman talk radio in high school to devouring podcasts years before they hit the mainstream.
  • Desire to create an in-person backpacking-focused podcast, inspired by the dynamic of campfire trail conversations.
  • “Once upon a time, Zach, tell us about your initial idea for the podcast and how you decided you wanted a co-host.” (17:16)

• Choosing a Co-host:

  • After 2017’s PCT, Zach uses a hiker meetup as a covert co-host audition: “I was going around trying to catch vibes with as many people as possible to see, like, who could carry the most interesting conversation. Chaunce had the advantage…” (20:39)
  • Early mishap: Chaunce shows up at the wrong taco joint for their first formal meeting—setting the tone for “riding a bucking bronco.” (23:29)

• Tempting Disaster:

  • Chaunce nearly gets herself fired after arriving late & drunk to an early episode: “You were on thin ice at that point. Yeah, that’s fair in my book. But you definitely have left. Nonetheless, she persisted.” (24:19)

• Intentional Representation:

  • Zach aimed for a female co-host: “I know that there’s so many backpackers out there that are obviously female, and me speaking to a bunch of female backpackers would not be interesting.” (24:55)

3. Early Days—Vibe, Expectations, Technical Disasters

• Expectations: Start small, hope for big. Both admit they thought success was a long shot, but quietly hoped for it. “No expectations, rather just like hopes and dreams.” (30:28)
• Tech Nightmares: Editing three audio tracks from three laptops, files falling out of sync mid-show, endless hours spent fixing echoes and lost content. “The episodes that sound the shittiest are the ones that took the most amount of hours.” (34:09)
• Style Evolution: Debated use of segments—Zach originally on the side of “pure interview,” Chaunce fought for recurring segments like Triple Crown, inspired by Pardon My Take (35:27).

4. Co-host Chemistry—How the Interviewing Dynamic Changed

• Non-verbal communication: “We have gotten smoother as interviewers because we don’t need to both be like ‘and then pause.’ A lot of that verbal calculus still happens, just not out loud anymore.” (41:11)
• Coachability: Both discuss reading each other’s cues, knowing when to step in or hold back, actively keeping the conversation fresh rather than just running down prepared questions.
• Tips for Aspiring Interviewers (46:40):
  • Reframe “interview” as “conversation.”
  • Lead with curiosity.
  • Don’t take early negative feedback to heart.

5. Building the Team & Behind-the-Scenes

• Growth: What started as a duo grew to a rotating support crew: shout-outs to Rachel (research), Elise & team (social), Paulie (editing), and more (73:28).
• Podcasting is Hard: “If you want to create a podcast, you have to really love what you’re doing... It’s a metric fuck ton of work.” (76:43)
• Organization Is Key: Rachel’s presence—a massively detailed email and workflow cadence—enables them to operate at a professional level (78:59).

6. Guests: Selection, Standouts, and Regrets

• How They’re Chosen:
  • Top referrals come from trusted past guests (Jabba, Katie, etc.)
  • Strong submissions come from Rachel’s form; self-recommended guests sometimes deliver hidden gems (61:42).
  • “We’re always looking for what’s the interesting thing—something that we haven’t heard before.” (66:03)
• Never-Aired Episodes: Only two in 360+—one for stage fright, another for off-air reasons (80:03).
• Favorite Guests & Surprises:
  • “Pretzel was a wild card that paid off.” (141:13)
  • “Gabe Vasquez, Julia Sheehan’s recommendation, blew us away.” (140:46)
  • Fancy Feast, Justin True, Mills Kelly, Nancy East, Dirt Monger, Kevin Nealon, and others.
• Most Nerve-wracking Guest:
  • For Zach: Kevin Nealon—“I was starstruck.” (147:01)
  • For Chaunce: Pete McBride, National Geographic photographer (147:44).

7. Listener Q&A: Life, Logistics, and Legacy

Balancing Work and the Podcast

• Chaunce on time management: “It’s like working two jobs sometimes… I think it would be hard to balance if I didn’t enjoy doing this so much.” (105:57, 117:03)
• Both hosts talk candidly about recording while sick, exhausted, or sleep-deprived—especially after Zach’s twins were born. “Nine months after having the twins, I was very sleep deprived and I’ve never felt more out of sorts.” (114:11)

Sustaining Friendship & Professional Boundaries

• “How do you retain a friendship while working together?”
  • “We don’t really hang out outside the podcast… Our lives are in very different places. But I’d say we get along in a work context in a friendly way.” (120:35)

If They Could Start Over…

• “Wouldn’t record on three different laptops.”
• “But honestly, all our mistakes made us stronger and the show what it is.” (123:24)

Would They Rather Give Up Kissing or Sauce?

• The co-hosts go into a convoluted, hilarious debate about condiments and affection, with Chaunce remarking: “I feed off of affection… I don’t think I could give up kisses, even for sauce.” (176:00)

Dream, Never-Landed Guests

• Regularly-repeated wish list: Cheryl Strayed, Bill Bryson, Nick Offerman, Matthew McConaughey.
  • “If Matthew McConaughey sits in this seat and I’m not in this seat… I will find you.” —Chaunce (162:10)
• “Wes Larson from Tooth and Claw, please email us back!” (159:38)

Saddest Transition Moments

• Fans and hosts both reflect on Chaunce leaving: “I’m in denial. I miss you when you miss a week. I’m so sad but then thrilled to hear you may still be involved.” (163:42)
• Chaunce’s self-aware final words: “I get a privileged position; I can ask whatever I want… Not everyone gets to do that and that’s a highlight for me.” (137:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Technical Failures:

  • “The episodes that sound the shittiest are the ones that took the most amount of hours.” —Chaunce (34:09)
  • “We used to record with different USB mics plugged into different laptops—which is just not the way that that's supposed to be done.” —Zach (33:04)

• On Early Volunteer Help:

  • “I remember exactly where I was sitting at a brewery when I was working with one of the [interns]. I can’t even ask you to do something by a deadline because I feel bad… there’s no reason to.” —Chaunce (70:48)

• On Self-Doubt and Feedback:

  • “For the first few years of this podcast, if I said something dumb… that would literally keep me awake at night.” —Zach (88:13)
  • “You can only fake your personality for so long… if your personality is a component of the show, it’s just got to be what comes naturally to you.” —Chaunce (51:00)

• On the Value of the Experience:

  • “Every episode is rewarding. Even if there’s just a sliver of insight or a funny interaction, the people we get access to… it really is a privilege.” —Zach (139:43)

• On Recording Road Trips:

  • “Anytime I’m on a trail and it’s not on my dollar… there’s just, like, one of those come-to-Jesus moments where you remember, like, I’m also technically on the clock.” —Chaunce (148:59)

• On Podcast Longevity:

  • “Wouldn’t still be doing this if it wasn’t still fun… That’s the most operative thing.” —Zach (139:43)
  • “As great as it must be to listen to, it’s even greater to sit in this chair…” —Chaunce (137:16)

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Segment Timestamps

• [00:00] – Episode intro, sponsor shoutouts, Denver weather banter, fundraiser & live show update
• [15:19] – Official Rachel-penned introduction for Chaunce
• [17:16] – Backpacker Radio’s origin story
• [24:30] – Classic early co-host mishaps
• [30:28] – Early expectations and mild ambitions
• [34:09] – Editing nightmares & technical disasters
• [41:11] – Evolution of co-interviewing & silent communication
• [61:42] – How guests are chosen (trusted recommendations, the process)
• [73:28] – Behind-the-scenes team, scaling up, and the value of organization
• [80:03] – Never-aired interviews
• [105:57] – Work/life balance, real talk on time management
• [140:46] – Most surprising favorite guests
• [147:01] – Most nervous to interview
• [176:00] – Give up sauces or kissing?
• [184:07] – Triple Crown: Worst Ways to Die
• [204:09] – Listener mail: How to negotiate a sabbatical for thru-hiking
• [216:46] – Sponsor thanks, wrapping up

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Podcast Segments Recap

• Triple Crown (Frequent): Forced ranking or favorites on a theme—this time, Worst Ways to Die (184:07)
• Gross or Not Gross: Recurring, not always planned—debate on kid’s backyard pooping memories.
• Classic Segment History: Horse Facts, Fox News, Reddit Brain Buster, One Minute Gear Review, Priest Confessions, etc.—nostalgic look back at their most beloved bits (155:54).

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Tone, Personalities, & Community

• Hilariously Candid: “Butter is a sauce. No, it’s not a sauce. I’m a liquid at a certain temperature… Am I a sauce?” —Zach & Chaunce (179:01)
• Vulnerably Reflective: Acknowledged struggles with impostor syndrome and learning to let go of “shame” from mistakes.
• Truly Grateful: Repeatedly thanked each other, the staff, and especially listeners for eight years of support, emphasizing how "without the listener, we are nothing."

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Useful for New Listeners?

This episode is pure meta content—a loving roast and celebration of Backpacker Radio from the hosts themselves. If you’re new, you’ll get a sense of:

• The real people behind the mics (quirks, honesty, flaws, and humor)
• What makes the show tick (teamwork, curation, and a lot of perseverance)
• Their unique position in the hiking podcast world

If you’re a longtime listener, prepare for a nostalgia trip, inside jokes, and a glimpse of the show’s future as Chaunce embarks on her next chapter—while their story, and Backpacker Radio, keeps going.

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“Most Memorable” Segment Quotes (With Timestamps)

• “You were almost not the co host of backpacker radio... Nonetheless, she persisted." —Zach (24:54)
• “The episodes that sound the shittiest are the ones that took the most amount of hours.” —Chaunce (34:09)
• “For the first few years… if I said something stupid, that would literally keep me awake at night.” —Zach (88:13)
• “You can only fake your personality for so long. So if your personality is a component of the show, it’s just got to be what comes naturally.” —Chaunce (51:00)
• “I would ruin the chair. Maybe we’d have to throw the chair away after.” [on dream guest McConaughey] —Chaunce (162:36)
• “As great as it might be to listen to this… it’s even greater to sit in this chair.” —Chaunce (137:16)

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If you ever wanted the unfiltered, behind-the-scenes story of Backpacker Radio—this is it.

Transcript

[A]

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio, present with the trek brought to you by Topo Athletic, we are bringing you the rare Chaunce and Zach solo podcast. In this one, we tell the full origin story of Backpack Radio. From the unofficial co host audition at a hiker meetup to Chaunce showing up at the wrong restaurant on day one to almost not making it past the early episodes. We get into how our interviewing dynamic has evolved over the years, the technical disasters of the early days, the team that quietly makes this whole thing work, shout out Rachel, Elise, Polly and Chris, our all time favorite guests, the ones we never aired, the dream guests we still haven't landed and answer a slew of listener questions. We wrap the show with the triple crown of the worst ways to die, share the news that apparently Roundup is being sprayed in our national forests, opine on whether we'd rather give up sauces or or kissing, debate whether butter is a sauce, and give an overview on how to negotiate a thru hiking sabbatical from your employer. But first, a backpacker's most important piece of gear is their footwear. You can have the rest of your pack absolutely dialed in, but if your feet aren't happy, you aren't happy. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce today's sponsor, Topo Athletic. If you tuned into our footwear episode with Dr. Courtney Conley, a physician specializing in foot and gait mechanics, and you already know that Topo Athletic was on her shortlist of brands she recommends for hikers. That's because Topo Athletic makes trail runners with a zero or minimal drop and a roomy toe box. The minimal drop promotes a more natural gait, while the wide toe box allows your toes to fully splay. Thru hikers have caught on the topos as well. According to the Trek's AT Thru Hiker survey, Topo went from not even cracking the list four years ago to being the second most used brand in the Trek's most recent survey and merely missing out on the top spot. Topo Athletic is beloved by thru hikers for their superior durability and grippy outsoles. In addition to the minimal drop and wide toe box, our gear reviewers have reported getting anywhere from 600 to 1,000 miles out of a single pair of topos before needing a replacement. This can save you not hundreds, but more than $1,000 over the course of a single thru hike. All Topo shoes utilize their Vibram outsoles, which is both grippy but and durable, a rare combination. Typically, you have to pick one or the other Tron and I have both been rocking Topo Athletic Tron were the pursuit twos for the full Northville Placid Trail and many miles since. I put in hundreds of miles in my pursuit twos over the last couple of years, including a through hike up Tour de Mont Blanc without even an ounce of foot discomfort. All right, here's the part you've been waiting for. The Discount Backpacker Radio listeners can score a 15% discount by using code Trek15Topo at checkout at topoathletic.com again use code Trek15Topo all one word and the number 15 at checkout at topoathletIC.com for your new favorite pair of trail runners. This discount is only valid on full price items and is only good for a limited time, so do not wait. If you've listened to BACKPACKER Radio for any amount of time, you know that Chaunce and I are big fans of gossamer gear and today I want to talk about their newest OL and the FT3 trekking poles. These are ideal for fast packing and trail running where the terrain changes fast and you need to go from pocket to pole and back again in seconds. No more choosing between carrying poles you don't need and scrambling for poles you can't reach. Stash them, grab them. Go. At just 6.2 ounces per pole, carbon fiber shafts and a custom molded EVA foam grip. Keep it every swing light. They're a variation of the best selling LT5s dialed in specifically for when speed is the priority. If you're putting in big miles and the trail keeps throwing different terrain at you, the FT3s are your go to discount time. Backpacker Radio listeners can score a $20 discount off these poles or the popular LT5s by using code BACKPACKER RADIO and at [e-mail] Again, that's code BACKPACKER RADIO. All one [e-mail] for $20 off your new favorite set of UL tracking poles. This deal is only good for a limited time, so do not wa. Welcome to BACKPACKER Radio presented the Trek brought to you by Topo Athletic. I am your co host, Zach Badger Davis. Sitting to my right is.

[B]

Hi, I'm Juliana Chauncey, AKA Chance.

[A]

And she's cold.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean, what happened to Denver this week? We we went to open the pool and then all of a sudden it's below freezing at night and I am thankful that I didn't pack all my jackets yet. I thought that was a silly move But I guess I was smart.

[A]

This is one of those instances where what's good for the area is at a stark juxtaposition to what's good for the human skin temperature.

[B]

Yeah. Fortunately, the dryness hasn't compounded with the cold yet to just really set me into a crusty crumble.

[A]

It's been wet. It's been.

[B]

It has been wet.

[A]

I saw that it was. We got more precipitation in like a two or three day span than we had the previous six months or some outrageous stat.

[B]

It's a nice beer.

[A]

Yeah. Hams. Chaucer's enjoying a hams right now. Takes me back to my Wisconsin days.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hams is one of the better shitty beers in my opinion. We should do a shitty beer triple crown one of these days.

[B]

Yeah. Well, you're running out of triple crowns.

[A]

We are running out of triple crown time. We'll squeeze that one in. But yeah, it's cold in here and outside, but good news for, I think fire risk in the area.

[B]

Yeah, we'll take that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Take a win.

[A]

Reminders. Got a handful of them. The first one is a real bummer to say, but our buddy, former guest of BACKPACKER Radio, recently had a stroke. Akuna. What episode number is that? Longtime listeners will obviously be very familiar with Akuna. He had an excellent interview on the show and we learned recently via social media that he. He had a stroke, which is obviously terrible. It sounds like he's gonna have a road back to regaining full function. But the reason I'm sharing this is because he has set up a fundraiser and wanted to shout that out. You know, I imagine it's gonna be hard for him to do anything work related anytime soon. So the support of the backpacking community would be greatly appreciated. We will include the link to the fundraiser in the show notes here. But yeah, sending healthy healing vibes Akuna's way. Akuna is just. We were talking about him in a recent podcast. He's just the sweetest guy of all time.

[B]

I know you'll have to send me that link. I haven't seen news of it yet. But yeah, Nightsis guy. Best Akuna story in regards to the podcast is that we recorded this like in the 2020 time frame for when his episode went out. So it was remote and we got like an hour and a half into the interview and then Zach realized he didn't hit record.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's the only time we've ever done that. We might have done it one other time.

[A]

It's certainly. It was the most egregious it was the worst.

[B]

It was basically we finished the episode and Zach went to press stop and then he realized that we didn't press record and Akuna was so nice about it. He redid the entire interview and like acted like it wasn't a big deal. So yeah, if anyone deserves positivity sent their way, it's him. So, so manifest positive things and check out the link if you have it within your means.

[A]

I'm going to say the URL just because that's always better. It's buymeacoffee.com akunahikes5 yeah, every I. I'm always so happy to see him at the trail events. He, he honestly is just a ray of sunshine. So if you have the means, please do support him. Next is we are hosting a live podcast. This is the Tron send off special. This is going down in Denver on June 26th. Doors are at 6, the show begins at 6:30. We've got a fun lineup of surprise guests, surprises of all kinds. But this more important than anything else, this is a celebration of our sweet, sweet chance.

[B]

Yes. This is literally a send off. We are doing this on Friday night, the 26th and then on Saturday we're packing up the house and on Sunday we are gone. So, so this isn't like one of those cute like we're doing it on this day and then like weeks will pass and then I leave kind of thing. This is literally this like I'm, I'm, I'm out the door. I'm not going to have furniture in my house when we do this. So moods will be high, excitement will be there. I have no idea what to expect. Elise asked me a question about it the other day and I was like, I, I have had my head in the sand when it comes to planning this thing, uh, which is more fun for me. So yeah, I would love to see you all. It's been a, it's been a fun ride. I, you know, I can sit in this chair without someone to listen on the other side of the rope. So it would be nice to see you all and say goodbye and give hugs and you know, just really go out with a bang. So yeah, if you aren't doing Anything Friday the 26th, come hang out with us.

[A]

Yeah. If you haven't been to one of our live podcasts, they are very fun and this one will definitely, I think take the cake. So yeah, if you can make it, please make it.

[B]

And it's very much a hangout after the podcast too. Like it's a sit and watch the podcast and then like we stay and drink and you stay and drink and then we all hang out. It's great.

[A]

And then we're hungover for two days. Yeah, that's my favorite part.

[B]

That is not my favorite part.

[A]

But yes, the link to get that will be in the show notes. Next is if you want to snag some very dope Backpacker Radio merchandise. We've got shirts, tank tops, crew necks. I think that's it.

[B]

Hoodies.

[A]

I don't think there's a hoodie.

[B]

I didn't think there was a crew neck. There's definitely T shirts. I'm wearing one. And there's definitely tank tops. I remember seeing one.

[A]

I'll be able to find the link later. Not important right now.

[B]

Here's the thing. If you're not going to get one because you wanted a hoodie, just let us know. We'll just enable the hoodie button real quick.

[A]

You know, I don't think you can do that mid campaign, so never mind.

[B]

But let us know so that next time there's something like that they can take into account that you only wear hoodies.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, actually the campaign is going to end before this comes out. If the campaign goes well, we'll keep it running for a second campaign about it. How about that? But yeah, the shirts are very cool. Chaucer's wearing it right now.

[B]

You can't see the back. I'm not taking off my sweater.

[A]

But the design part is on the back. You'll just have to take our word for it. Or check out backpacker Radio social media or go to Bonfire. Jesus. Where the link go?

[B]

Links.

[A]

See page bonfire.com can you dig-it-15 to get the shirt?

[B]

When you apply for a house, do you get like a million people a day starting to call you about your personal loan inquiry?

[A]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[B]

They won't stop.

[A]

You're going to get on a spam list.

[B]

You want to talk to Sanchez? He's calling now.

[A]

I'm sure Sanchez is a very nice guy, but tell him to fuck off on my behalf.

[B]

I would like for him to fuck off on my behalf too. Yeah, the fifth one today.

[A]

But yeah, moral story is get yourself a backpack radio shirt. It is very cool. Next is. I don't like saying this, but I have to say is if you're interested in serving as a guest co host for Backpacker Radio, please submit yourself. We have a short little forum for you to do that. Most of the episodes will be the familiar faces around here. The Elyses, Jess, Katie, Viking. Probably a name or two I'm forgetting on that list. But, you know, I want to get a nice little carousel through here. I want people that enjoy the fun that is sitting in Chaunce's seat. So if you think you've got the chops or you are local to golden or will be passing through, you can submit yourself as a co host through that form.

[B]

No comment.

[A]

You inhaled. I wanted to give you space.

[B]

It's fine. I have space.

[A]

Yeah. But the more important thing is patreon.com backpackerradio is where you can go to support this show, but more importantly, moving forward. This is going to be the old Badger and Chaunce sandbox. This is where we're going to test stuff. We're going to keep our content going in some capacity. It'll be some combination of Chaunce running solo stuff out in North Carolina. We'll do some Zoom stuff, though, admittedly, I hate zoom, but I like Chance enough to do that.

[B]

Thanks. You're so kind.

[A]

I really do. I hate do more than anything. But like I said, I. I make an exception for you, even though you're abandoning us.

[B]

It's fine. It's fine. Whatever. Yeah, I'll be on Patreon. Bpr. Bpr, Backpacker radio, but Patreon remote, AKA Schwan's Cave. Come hang out and. Yeah, I'll be there waiting for you. So come. Come hang out and.

[A]

Have you started splitting people?

[B]

No, no. We haven't ironed out any details yet.

[A]

The house looked nice enough. You could probably carve out your own little individual studio there. Whether it's for this or hiking from

[B]

home or mile by mile is going to get. Well, mile by mile is going to get a recommitment of my effort with the free time. So that's going to be nice to do, but I don't know, maybe just

[A]

put it all on Garrett's credit card. Be like, you're making me do this.

[B]

The problem is it's our credit card now. It is, but because we're married, so. Yeah. Anywho. Yeah, I'll be on Patreon. Can't wait to see you there. We're still figuring out exact details around that.

[A]

We're gonna let the dust settle. We're gonna let you move and slide

[B]

on in, but, yeah, there's no way I'm looking for potential guests for it. Before I even leave the house, we

[A]

should get a remote interview on the calendar for, like, what, you and I? Yeah, like mid July. Ish.

[B]

Yeah, I Think so. We have parents coming the third through the tenth, so after the tenth work.

[A]

Cool. Yeah, we're. We're learning this as you guys are learning this. Trunce has got life stuff, so we're going to prioritize life stuff. But we would be remiss if we didn't do. We haven't done too many solo podcasts because my general philosophy in this world is that people don't need that much more of me.

[B]

They get a lot of us on the segments.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. But with our days being limited and this opportunity becoming increasingly more rare, I thought it would be fun to just do a nice old fashioned solo pod. And what solo pod would be a solopod without Rachel's wonderful introduction Here, here.

[B]

Which is.

[A]

Juliana Chauncey, AKA Chaunce, has hiked the PCT at ctjmt, Ozark Highland Trail, Foothills Trail, and Northville Plaza Trail. She has co hosted Backpacker Radio for more than eight years and provided what some could argue is more than half of the spunk and pizzazz that makes it into most episodes. Despite her penchants for never cleaning her car and sending outlandish idea texts in the middle of the night, she is a huge yet physically tiny part of the Backpacker Radio team. That was mostly nice.

[B]

That was. That was nice.

[A]

That was nicer than I was expecting from Rachel. She did take a jab at your car, but.

[B]

Yeah, but like, for. There had to be something in here. That was great.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

A Rachel.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

You get a raise.

[A]

Yeah, that's going to be a new theme here.

[B]

Everyone's getting raises.

[A]

Ch's just spending money. She's not. She doesn't have. Okay, where do we start? Some of the obvious questions. I know. Rachel has done an excellent job. I will say the question preparation side has gotten lighter as we, you and I, I think, have gotten better at interviewing. We've needed less to lean on. But Rachel is back to her old ways with this one.

[B]

She really gave us a lot of

[A]

bullet points because she realized that it's awkward because neither of us are necessarily the most prone to be talking about ourselves. So she gave us some good prompts here. I think Rachel did a really nice job.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. We also, like, just had a therapy episode.

[A]

So that was you and Jabba. I was not really present on that episode.

[B]

Yeah, well, I just had, apparently, a therapy. Another one in a row is great.

[A]

Yeah, I'm hoping everyone skipped that one,

[B]

but I do too.

[A]

This one, I think, will be less contentious. We won't even reference the old one. That one didn't exist.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Okay, first one I don't want. This is the only one I think that is me focused. I won't. These are going to be we. But I think it is appropriate to tell the story of backpacker radio because I run the track, and that is appropriate.

[B]

You start it with Once upon a time.

[A]

Once upon a time. Zach, tell us about your initial idea for the podcast and how you decided you wanted a co host.

[B]

Now is when you would say once upon a time. Yeah, you don't say once upon a time before you ask the question.

[A]

Well, I was gonna go all the way back to when my parents banged

[B]

because that's where it really all started. Right, right, right.

[A]

There was a flicker.

[B]

Thank you, Mr. And Mrs. Davis.

[A]

I have been a longtime consumer of podcasts. Like, I'm not doing the hipster thing of, like, I was doing this first, but, like, legitimately on the. At 2011 drink, I was listening to podcasts near daily. And this is before I think most people even knew that podcasts existed. Like, it wasn't a medium in the pop culture sphere by any stretch of the imagination. I'm. I wasn't the only person on trail listening to podcasts because I remember having. I think it was Sprout and Spark were talking. We were talking about listening to stuff. You should know. But I know amongst my friend group, like, none of them even knew what podcasts were. The podcast app on the iPhone was something that was, like, buried on the last page. You might have even had to have downloaded at the time. I think it was native moral story. I'm getting off trail here is. I've always loved podcasts, and this could even go all the way back to, like, my love of AM radio. In high school, I would sneak in a Walkman with a threaded headphone and, like, lean on my hand and listen to 670. The score, specifically Boris and Bernstein was my go to. Back in the day, like, talk radio has been a huge part of my life. I used to go to Remote Recordings down in Bourbon A, which is where the bears would have their training camp. We would go to their live recordings at, like, various bars. Like, I've just always liked the concept of radio in general. So the seed has been planted for that for a very long time. That being said, I never considered myself to be that personality. Like, I. I didn't want to be in the foreground of this. So I made the attempt by bringing on a couple of other podcasts that were already in the hiking sphere onto the trek, both of which I thought were really good. Pox and puss and Sounds of the Trail spearheaded by Gary Sizer. I don't think either of them are in operation right now, but like, that was just a show of my love of podcasts in general. I was a fan of both those shows very much. But. But the thing that I think that those podcasts didn't scratch the itch for, for me personally was like the in person nature of a good conversation. I knew that I wanted to create a podcast that had an in person component to it, because in my opinion, I think that's where the magic of a good conversation comes from. Again, going back to what I said a few minutes ago, I hate zoom. I hate zoom so much that I at least wanted to give a shot at creating a podcast, because I just wanted to create something that existed in person. Fast forward to 2017. Finished the PCT. We had hosted one of our first hiker meetups, which unbeknownst to everyone there, was my attempt at auditioning people for co host of Factor Radio. I didn't make this known at all. This was literally like I had no idea. I was going around trying to catch vibes with as many people as possible to see, like, who had. Who could carry the most interesting conversation. Chaunce had the advantage of her and I having met prior to that meetup. Prior to the Pacific Crest Trail, a couple of months before you embarked on, I had put, I think a post out on Facebook asking if anyone had experience with video work at the time. I'm sure this has been said, beaten to death on this podcast at this point, but Jabba and I had very serious intentions of creating a documentary from our through hike of the pct and me starting from scratch, not knowing the fucking first thing about operating cameras. I was willing to meet up with anyone who would share any advice to me whatsoever. And Tron was on the short list of people that did that. Chance, I'll let you take that part of it.

[B]

We just met on a mat and I told you how the buttons worked.

[A]

Yeah, it wasn't. I don't actually, I don't know if I could pull apart any specific piece of advice that you gave me.

[B]

It was all very general.

[A]

Yeah, it was very general. But I mean, at the time, with how little that I knew, anything that you could have said would have been information to me. So it was appreciated. I also want to give a shout out to my buddy Woody, who, like, he's a professional videographer and like, took Me out on several hikes and like, showed me the ropes. So I feel like I'm mildly competent at video now because of this. But that was my first introduction to Chaunce. She was also a blogger for the trek at the time. Did three blogs, three blog posts. But it was nice to at least have the background of knowing Chaunce mildly. Meeting out at North Table Mountain. I think we grabbed a beer after that. We met at. Or we crossed paths. I should say at Timberline Lodge. I was hiking south. You were hiking north on PCT 2017. And then. Yeah. Once I had made the decision to start a podcast, that hiker meetup served as the unofficial audition. And I don't remember any of our conversation, but apparently it was impressive enough that I thought that Chaunce should be the person that served as the co host.

[B]

I would love to know what we talked about.

[A]

I'm sure it was alcohol infused in some capacity.

[B]

Definitely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What on earth could I have been saying?

[A]

Yeah. But a story that I have shared on this podcast many times was to officially kick things off, I wanted to go over conceptually what I thought backpacker radio could be. So we scheduled a meetup at a local. Local taco spot in Denver. And I specifically said there are multiple locations. Meet at this location.

[B]

I don't know. That's out for debate.

[A]

No, it certainly is not.

[B]

I haven't seen receipts.

[A]

We'll call the meeting time at 6:30. It's like 6:35. I'm there and I'm like, where are you? And then I get a text back from Tron. She's like, where are you? I'm like, I'm the place that we're supposed to be. You're like, so am I. Moral of the story is you're at the wrong place of the right. The right chain. Was it Tequila Taco?

[B]

Tequila's whiskey.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So that really set the stage for how the early days of that radio was gonna go is that I knew that you were a wild card, but I. It was like riding a bucking bronco. Like you had to learn how to tame the bucking bronco because did you tame it? I think you tamed yourself through shame. Through some consistent feedback. We'll say.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But yeah, no, you're definitely. You're way more reliable than you were back in those early days. We can get to this. But you were almost not the co host of backpacker radio.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was one episode where I accidentally got drunk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wasn't the plan.

[A]

That would have been fine. Honestly. It was that you showed up an hour late.

[B]

Yeah. The Uber wouldn't come. They kept canceling on me, and I couldn't drive myself because I had drank, so I was really in a pickle.

[A]

Yeah, no, you were definitely. You were on thin ice at that point. Yeah, that's fair in my book. But you definitely have left.

[B]

Nonetheless. She persisted.

[A]

She persisted and she persed. So, yes, that was how you decided you wanted a co host. I knew I always wanted a co host. Specifically, I wanted a female co host. I know that there's so many backpackers out there that are obviously female, and me speaking to a bunch of female backpackers would not be interesting. So that was that.

[B]

You've been fun on the girl stuff. Given that personality in the.

[A]

I appreciate that not knowing the girl stuff, but I think for a long period of time, I mean, it's just human nature that you're gonna connect better with people that you more closely. Associate eight with honeymoon. Yeah, we got that one. First impressions of each other. Bonus points if they turned out to be wildly incorrect. First impressions of CH I didn't get much. Honestly, from the. That first meeting. I didn't get a ton. Other than you seemed not the most prepared for the pct, which is normal for a first time through hike. You probably were more prepared for the P. PCT than I was for the AT. That's not a personality trait. That's just a normal backpack thing.

[B]

I was more prepared for the TCT than I was the A.T. well, not mentally, but I had done more pre prep.

[A]

Yeah, but you. There's no way you were more prepared through hike under your belt.

[B]

No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I had done more pre work. The ATI didn't know where anything was. I just showed up.

[A]

Yeah. First impressions beyond that is. Yeah. Wild card.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chaotic, but in a good way, I thought. In a way that makes for interesting audio.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if I had any notable first impression that stuck with me long enough to remember it distinctly. I think it just like, we started this and there was six months that went by before we had an advertiser on. So, you know, like some guy asks you to do a podcast with him and you start one and it's, you know, in your basement and unpaid for. Like, there's no expectations there. You know, it's not like it was like, oh, I got hired for this job and I'm really nervous about it my first day tomorrow. It wasn't any of that because it wasn't. I wasn't getting paid you know, and, like, we weren't. No one was listening, and we were in a basement. And so it was like, the stakes here are very low. So I. I feel like the only thing I remember is just like, a nonchalance about, like, if it doesn't work, so what? But if it does work, that's fun. So I think not having expectations was probably helpful.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, agreed. Which is a perfect segue to the next question here. But expectations about the longevity or success I typically go into, especially back then, I went into things with a very low bar, especially serving as the host. I didn't want to set some expectation that this was going to be a huge thing. Also, the idea of a hiking podcast, which podcasts have since become more popular, but at the time, they were still even more niche than they are today. And just hiking long distance, backpacking through hiking is an incredibly niche subject. Like, I don't even know what a big. Like, if you got as popular as you could be, what that even looks like. So for me, personally, I just. I wanted to create something that was fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I'm going to spend time doing this, if it's going to fail, I want to fail. Creating something that would be a conversation that you'd hear around the campfire outside of a shelter on the at. Basically, like, I don't want people's guards up. I don't want people to be too polished. I don't want this to be an NPR production because that was neither of our skill sets. The expectation was like, let's just put this out into the universe and we'll get feedback as to whether this works or not. But, like, I never had expectations for it to get big.

[B]

Yeah, I think I didn't have expectations for it to get big. Big. And I didn't have expectations about, like. Like, when we go to PCT days and people recognize us, that still, to me is like. But when we had talked about, like, we. We. Even though we didn't have sponsors in the beginning six months, we had talked about, what does it look like? Yeah, should that happen? And we did. We. I remember we had something where we had some test numbers on it, where it was like, if it got to this, it could mean this. And so I remember when we got our first sponsor of Sawyer thinking, like, oh, my God, if it means. If it gets to this, it could be this. And they're like, the excitement of, like, and this is me when I'm in my 20s, being like, and if it gets to that, then I can just go hike in the summer and I can go hike and I can do this and then I don't have to do graphic design and I can just hike. So I think I, I didn't have expectations of it getting big, but I think I had hopes. I think I had hopes about the success of it and that like, if it could get to that place, like I could live out the dream that every hiker has where it's like I could just do this all day. But when you get to like reality and it's like, well, if you're self employed, you have to pay for your own health insurance and like all the different things that come into making that a reality, like pushes. I think that pushes the bar further every time you get closer to it.

[A]

But yeah, I would say no, inflation didn't help that.

[B]

No. And so, yeah, no expectations, rather just like hopes and dreams.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Though I will say that because we had hosted a couple of podcasts previously and just conversations that I had had in the industry, like, I kind of knew what the benchmark was for some of the other top hiking podcasts in terms of downloads. And we like, we started passing that pretty quickly. And that, that was shocking to me. That's when the feedback was like, oh, fuck, I think we are onto something here. Trans mentioned not getting having any sponsors for the six months, for the first six months of the podcast, which is true. But very early on we had sponsors reaching out, wanting to get involved. I didn't know that I specifically turned it down because I wanted to just focus. I knew that if I fragmented myself into like thinking about monetizing it and her download numbers were still, you know, pretty small at that point. It would just be like a distraction away from the podcast. At that point I wanted to focus on the podcast and the podcast only and then worry about the money once we had some momentum. And I just felt we were too early into it to start trying to, you know, open the cash register on it. In hindsight, I think that was the right call because we've have made a lot of mistakes both on air and like, technically, I'm sure we can talk about this, but just the fucking chaotic way that we were editing the podcast early on was a nightmare. And just trying to work in like advertising on top of all the stuff that we didn't know, I think would have made it overwhelming.

[B]

So, yeah, I would line up, we would record on three different laptops and then I would open up. What was it? Audition? Maybe it was audition. And I would line the clips up, but Then something in. And not an audio person, but something in how the clips were maybe the files or the recording something about them,

[A]

where two of the mics that were the exact same were somehow recording at slightly different frequencies.

[B]

Yeah. And then also you line them up where, like, everything. Like we clap at the beginning, everything's lined up. The clap is all lined up on the little audio bars. And then 20 minutes in, there's like an echo because they're slightly off track. I don't know how it was recording differently like that, where it would be at the same at one place and differently at the other. So then I'd sit there and you just cut every time it started to get a little echo and you'd realign them. Then you'd go and then you'd cut when there'd be a little echo. It took hours, hours and hours. Thank God we found poly.

[A]

Yeah. And also, I will say, doing a podcast today is so much easier. Like, with AI just giving it to you step by step. But also the software you can use, stuff like Riverside, if you're doing it remotely, we'll just make it completely mindless. But it's nice to be starting out when that stuff is hard to figure out, because that's a higher barrier to entry, especially for people that aren't technical in the audio sense. And obviously we were not that. So, yeah, the process of, like, even editing together one single episode in the beginning, Chauce was doing it at first. Then I took over for a while. We were recording with different USB mics plugged into different laptops, which is just not the way that that's supposed to be done, especially when you're in the same room with the person. So, yeah, we were making every technical mistake early on, which just goes to show how I think dedicated we were to this project because, yeah, the lift behind every episode for us to be doing this by ourselves was fucking immense.

[B]

Yeah. The episodes that sound the shittiest are the ones that took the most amount of hours.

[A]

Definitely.

[B]

That's always just funny.

[A]

Yeah, 100%. Did you discuss the style of the podcast you wanted to create or the style of the interviewers you wanted to be? I think you and I have different recollections of this because. Well, I'll give my. And then you correct me. Style of the podcast. I knew early on that I wanted to be very interview heavy for the exact reason that, like, I didn't necessarily want to be the host of the podcast. Is I just. Me talking for that much time does not sound like a Good idea. So bringing on other interesting people where I can pick their brain, I think I can do that fairly well. So I knew that an interview was going to be the crux of the podcast. I think this is probably where we deviate a bit in what the original vision of the show was. But I wanted some fun component around the interview. Again, I wanted to recreate what I experienced on trail, like the conversations that you have on trail for the podcast. And that can't always be achieved with interviews, especially if the interview's on more serious matters. And that's where, like, the segments portion was born. On Chaunce's.

[B]

You didn't want segments. I came saying, let's do segments, too, because I had listened to part of my take, and the first half of everything you said is absolutely accurate. You were like, the interview should be the bulk. That's more interesting. People aren't here to listen to us. They're here to listen to the guests. All of that made sense. But then I. Because I was listening to part of my take, I was like, yeah, but they do these things and they're kind of funny. And then we slowly started adding segments. That's my memory of it. I don't leave room for error, but I don't. I remember you not wanting segments.

[A]

Yeah, I. I can't say with great accuracy what the conversations were eight years ago. I'll defer to you on that. If you feel very strongly about that. I will just say, going Back to the AM radio days again, talking about, like, 670 the score. They did a segment, who you crappin? Which is basically just like calling out someone who had said something dumb or done something dumb. I always loved those. I don't even know if they would call it a segment, probably. But, yeah, I think maybe there was some of the stuff that I thought was gimmicky. I could definitely see that being the case. But as the more we've done this, the more I lean into the gimmick. So I've definitely changed my mind on that. If that was my stance at one point, and I believe you, that that probably was.

[B]

Well, Triple Crown's one of the earliest ripoffs we did because we ripped off the Mount Rushmore from part of my take, because that was one of the ones where it was like, I can't get enough of this segment that they keep doing.

[A]

Yeah. Can we give ourselves a collective pat on the back that we. How many fucking episodes in a row have we come up with Triple Crown picks?

[B]

And, like, I think Rachel gets A pat there, too. Honestly, the whole team. Because everyone's just not you.

[A]

And I. I mean, the backpacker radio, even the universe. We've gotten some listening listener submissions on this.

[B]

Yeah, it's. And. But that was one of the great things about the Part of My Take ones was that was like, every time you think that they can't come up with another one, they're doing, like, the Triple Crown of cereal. And, like, these four men are so into this argument about Fruity Pebbles that it's just so funny to listen to.

[A]

Well, they have, since they take off at least half the year from doing Mount Rushmore.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, it's like a shortened part of the year. I think they do it during the football off season.

[B]

See, I only listen when I'm on trail. I don't listen to podcasts off jokes. I don't drive anywhere apart from here.

[A]

I'm not a regular listener of Pardon My Take nowadays. But, yeah, that was definitely a direct ripoff, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Try not to pardon my take. Was there anything else about the podcast that we decided? I think once we fell into a routine of, like, it was. Most interviews tended to be more on the serious side, where we're talking to somebody else and extracting their story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then segments were always like, let's let her hair down, unsnap our bras, and just shoot the shit for a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Segments were a good balancer because if we had a really long interview, then it was like, okay, well, we can do quick segments and get the show on the road. Or if we had a rather dry interview that was more, like, informative or, you know, the. The guest didn't have as many poop

[A]

stories or just, you know, not all interviews are winners.

[B]

We can say that. No. But then we would be like, all right, we gotta turn it onto the segments and really get fucking weird here. Cause, you know, we've gotta balance out what is a drier interview.

[A]

Gotta give the people what they didn't pay for.

[B]

Exactly. I think the only other thing we would've, stylistically, that we really changed was moving Question of the Day to the end, because we started with Question of the Day at the top of the show.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we flopped it to the end.

[A]

That was for better or for worse. That was a me decision.

[B]

But I think that's because we added the things to remember at the top, because we didn't used to do things to remember.

[A]

Reminders is definitely. That's like a mini Trek propaganda.

[B]

So once we added reminders yeah, if it made sense to move Question of the day. Because that's a lot to make someone just sit in a chair and wait for.

[A]

And my fear was, like, if we had a prominent guest on and somebody's. Forget the guest, because the guest. I don't care about the. I'm just kidding. The listener. If. If, like, you hear Andrew Skirk is on a podcast and it's you and I talking about, like, farts for 20 minutes before we get to the interview, that feels like an injustice. I feel like that should be buried. That was the rationale. But now I talk about. Subscribe to the Treks YouTube for 10 minutes. So I don't know. I'm a hypocrite.

[B]

Yeah, well, so am I.

[A]

How I like this question. How is your podcasting co interviewing strategy changed over time?

[B]

I don't know if it's changed as much as. We just get better at reading each other's cues. Like, when I take a breath in and then you pause, and it's like, oh, I thought you were gonna say something. The little subtleties of, like, the way I breathe, where it's like, oh, I can tell she wants to say something. Or sometimes, like, the way, like, you sit, like, you'll do something with your shoulders and, like, you're getting ready to say something. And I think the more time we've been in these chairs, the more easy it is to just, like, not even read your facial expressions because I'm not always looking right at you or vice versa, but, like, even just, like, your posture or, like, the way you fidget in your chair and vice versa. Where I think we have gotten smoother as interviewers because we don't need to both be like. And then pause, even though sometimes we do. A lot of the times that that verbal where you catch us and we're both like. And then we stop, and it's like you go. No, you go. A lot of the times that still happens, it's just not out loud. A lot of the times it's like, I'll shift, and then Zach will shift, and then, like, I'll see that, and then I'll pull back and then, you know, like, there's, like, little things where, like, that conversation is happening without words that you can't really just, like, read without doing this enough times where your brain somehow starts to pick up on when these traits happen. This is going to happen. Yeah, Kind of stuff.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. That is a very accurate representation. Doing this for. Honestly, it's in terms of time spent interviewing people it's measured in days, certainly maybe weeks at this point.

[B]

Hours.

[A]

Yeah. If, like, you. If someone says something and I have a question and then, like, you perk up and I feel. I can almost sense, like, your question is so pressing that I'm just going to swallow in mind. Like, sometimes you'll hear me typing in the background.

[B]

Or like, if I'm about to ask a question and I see you perk up and I know mine's going to be off topic, I'll try to hold mine because I'm like, let him say the on topic one for sure.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I try to always. Unless mine. I sense that too. I sense that sometimes my question might be more directly related to the answer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In which case I try not to do it often, but I will bulldoze.

[B]

But that's when I think those moments happen. Is that we've already done all the brain work. Work of. Okay. We both can tell. We both want to ask a question. I've weighed where my question might fall compared to his question because we've gotten very good at figuring out and almost guessing what the next person's gonna say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where it's like, I can kind of like, sometimes you ask a question like, oh, my God, I knew you're gonna ask that. You know?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think then we both. We both notice each other's, like, physical cues. And then we do like a self evaluation of, like, how important is my question versus theirs. And then the conversation ends without you ever noticing because one of us will sit back and let the other have it. Or both of us reach a point where we're like, mine might be better fit here. And if, like, maybe if Zach says his question first, then mine will no longer be on topic. And then I'm at that point. It would flow better for me to skip it than say it. Then you get to the point where we're both like, you go ahead. You go ahead. And so that's all the listener hears. But all that shit happens in the background, unspoken in our brains.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is kind of fricking wild.

[A]

Yeah. We are both running a non verbal calculus of whose question needs to go first. And there's times where it's the opposite where, like, someone will answer and I'm just intentionally quiet because I'm waiting for you. Not. Not like, I don't think that you're asking enough questions. It's more like I'm asking too many questions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, just mute myself. And sometimes you do the same.

[B]

Yeah. Like, we'll Check our balance. Where it's like, okay, I just got three questions in. In a row because I was quite eager. Now I sit back and let Zach take one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or even if it's not like I was too eager, like, sometimes if you ask three in a row, I'm like, he's gonna need a second to think of something else.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, now I'll jump in so that he has that pause.

[A]

Yeah. And sometimes there are just certain guests where you resonate better with them or the subject is of greater interest to you, and I'm gonna just sit out a little bit and vice versa.

[B]

Nutrition. Go for it.

[A]

If reborn's on, I'm Gonna probably take 80% of the questions that. Yeah, it definitely happens. Where sometimes. Even though the interviewer present in the room is setting out a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. But I can. I think the other thing, too. Okay. If we go another level is we can also tell when our questions are a little forced. So if I can tell that, like, a question you are giving or you're asking is, like, a little forced or not, like, probably what your go to question would be, then it's like, okay, like, maybe this is a drier episode, for example, and your question's a little forced. And it's like, okay, I've got to try. Like, while this person's answering, I've got to try to think of either something they're saying that can lead to something more interesting, or I've got to have something on backup for if this is a short answer, and then they need to be prompted again. Because the way that Zach's asking his question, I can tell he's like. He's just had to think about it, and he's a little tired, and, like, he needs another second to, like, refocus on, like, where can we take this from here?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So there's all those things happen in the background, which is nutty.

[A]

Yeah. No, the. The unspoken equation of what happens during an interview. I. Yeah, I think that you and I have both gotten much better at that. Not only you and I. Yeah, not only you and I toward the guest, but you and I together certainly has gotten more refined over time when you've been out for whatever reason. And I've, like, before we get to the interview portion, I've tried to, like, coach people on co hosting practices, and most of the time, it's just like, you're gonna have to bulldoze me at times because to keep the tempo of the interview to where it needs to be, I'm not gonna allow much dead space to happen. And you're really good at that. Like, you're really good at knowing not only when to squeeze in the question, but what question will keep the momentum of the answer going.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's something that we've both gotten better at over time for sure. I think day one in the seat, like, you just can't do that in day one because we don't know each other in that cadence yet.

[A]

So a question that's not asked, but maybe somebody listening to this that wants to start their own podcast, hiking or otherwise, is. If you don't have any interview experience, know that the first like five to ten interviews that you do are going to be trash ass interviews. I started at, not my worst, doing this because my previous job, I was in a position where I was interviewing people, frankly, on a subject I didn't know much about, with people who were like heavy hitters in that world. And I was terrible. I was so bad at it. I would have my list of 15 questions. I would ask them a question, wait for them to finish, and then just go to the next. Like, I wasn't even present. They could have been interviewed by, like, via email and gotten better interaction. So having gone through those lumps before coming into BACKPACKER Radio, I think allowed me to get some of that out of the way. I say that because I do get the question from time to time about, like, what is your top piece of advice is like, this is really hard starting out, but just be as present as possible. Like, it's. It's hard to both have. Both given an interview and have a conversation. And the latter requires you being present and like, actively listening to. I think it just takes a lot of reps. And you've.

[B]

You.

[A]

The reason I bring this up is, like, you've gotten much better at that. I think early on. I don't know if you had experience prior to this podcast. Yeah. But frankly, I thought you had room for improvement. And today I think that you're excellent at it. You're really good at it.

[B]

Me too. I think we all still have room for improvement. But I agree. I think, like, if you are trying to start one of these and you like, my two cents is just reframing it. Reframing the word interview to conversation. Like, I'm not having an interview. I'm having a conversation. I'm not interviewing this person on these 15 bullet points. I'm having a conversation with this person about these 15 topics. For some reason, the word conversation gives you permission to. Instead of just going down the list, like, line items that you're asking, like, have a back and forth on each one. Because it's like, if I'm interviewing, I'm just asking and hearing. But if I'm having a conversation, I'm also expected to converse on that, which is like a two way thing, and lead with curiosity. You know, like, it's. If you're just. If you're going in and you're cold because you're nervous and you're reading what's on the thing, and they answer that one question and you go on to the next question, there could have been five things in their answer that maybe would have been leading to better stories or more interesting things if you just, like, dug one level deeper. So the curiosity, I think, is huge. And then one more on the flip side of things, in terms of keeping momentum, is like, don't take the feedback to heart in the beginning. Like, definitely listen to constructive criticism and seek out constructive criticism from people you trust. But, like, things that are just outright mean, you know, people are more likely to leave a bad review than a good review. If I love a product I'm using, I'm probably not going to go find it online to leave a positive review about it. It's just, like, not as human nature. As if I'm, like, hating something. Like, my Internet went out and they're not. Xfinity is not being helpful. Right. And you know, where I'm going to go is everywhere to complain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so just knowing that that's how human nature is. Like, you have to absorb negative feedback in a way that, like, you have to remind yourself, hey, the negative feedback is always louder. People are more likely to go and type something when they're mad, and they're less likely to do it when they're happy. But that doesn't mean that there's not happy people out there who like what you're doing.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a hard part about this. But once you get to the point where you start getting negative feedback, that means you've reached some sort of threshold of fan, listener, consumption, whatever you want to call it. Because it's rare that the first person that listens to it is, like, fuck you. Kill yourself. Like, you have to get some momentum to get to it.

[B]

But, like, my God, in the first six months, how many times did I hear that I was annoying? I get it. You know, Like, I've got to live in this head with myself. I can't leave.

[A]

You can.

[B]

You can Turn this off. I'm still in here. Yeah, right. But I think the other thing, too is, like, having a co host. It's so much better getting complaints and feedbacks about, like, how much you suck when you have someone else to laugh about it with.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You know, like, we just screenshot that shit and it's like, lol, okay. Versus if it was just me and I read it and then I, like, go to bed. That's not as fun.

[A]

Also, early on, we got a lot of feedback that the podcast was too vulgar. We've probably softened that a little bit. Not out of any. Trying to accommodate those people more so I think just us getting older. Although we still talk about shit. I'm sure I've said far more than I want 12 times. But this is another piece of advice is don't try to cater to everyone. Is like, if I'm going to create a podcast, it has to work in a way that I would speak naturally. And if I'm constantly censoring myself, that's just not going to work long term.

[B]

Yeah. You can only fake your personality for so long. So if your personality is a component of the show, it's just got to be what comes naturally to you, fortunately or unfortunately.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Be your authentic self. That's the best shot that you've got. If you try to correct your direction based on every negative piece of feedback that you get, you're gonna end up with some watered down garbage.

[B]

So what's not watered down? Is this Hams. Oh,

[A]

you want to take a break or you want to go to the next question?

[B]

Where's the next one? You could start. I'm gonna pee real fast. You can start the next one. If it's.

[A]

There's just you and I. We'll just wait.

[B]

Yeah, no, yeah, you guys wait for me.

[A]

We're back. John's pooped.

[B]

That would have been way too fast.

[A]

Yeah, I know. What's the fastest poop you've ever taken?

[B]

Oh, like, if it's ready, sit.

[A]

From sit to Hands are washed.

[B]

If it is. If it's ready to come. Like, usually the big. The big part is just like, it's not ready. Which is like a public thing. Like when we went to that place the other day.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And it's just not ready. If I'm ready and I sit down. Under a minute.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Under a minute. I don't need. Well, that's why I don't understand when Garrett spends ages in there, you know, because it's like, it doesn't. If you are actually going. It doesn't take long if you go in with a mission and you have to go and you just go. It comes out all in that initial go, and then it stops. And then you say, okay, great. And you could sit there for 30 minutes to see if, like, one little bit will come out after, or you could just, like, get up and go back to your day, and that is fine.

[A]

I'm on Garrett's team with this one for a couple of reasons. One is, oftentimes I'll say, at least for me, is, you're right, that the. The mass is coming out right away. But if you sit and wait for another minute or two, there's the aftershock. And there's nothing worse than being done taking a dump, going to do whatever the thing you're doing, being like, I have more dump to dump, and I couldn't even just sit on the toilet and get it all out.

[B]

Hot take. I think this is a lie that boys are all on the same page with and that they all agree with each other and that they're just all lying to get more alone time in the bathroom. You know why I think that? Because I was a little bit psychotic the other week, and I was standing in the bathroom. I opened the door because I had to ask him something. He didn't come out for ages. He's just sitting there with his pants down, and he's. I'm, like, trying to talk to him, and he's, like, trying to get me to leave. He's like, I am literally pooping. Can you please leave? Psychotic. I said stand up. Prove it. There was nothing in the fucking toilet. The toilet was empty. I was like, I knew it. You're a liar.

[A]

He was waiting.

[B]

No. And so every time. So every time he says he's pooping, I say, prove it. And then he gets a little nervous because I don't actually make him. But I did once, and nothing was in there. And that's how I know you're all lying. And you're just doing this to have more scroll time and watch your hockey stats and go on Twitter, and nothing's actually fucking happening in that room until the minute before it's time to get out. Once it's like, okay, where are you? We have to go in five. It's like, oh, I'm coming. Then you do it. Then you leave. That's when you do it.

[A]

That might be. You said a lot of crazy things. That's definitely in the Triple Crown.

[B]

This is. If we're doing Triple Crown. And conspiracy theories. This is one that I. This is a hill I'll die on.

[A]

If Jenna ever made me show my shits to prove that I was taking care of business in there, I would file a divorce.

[B]

Well, I didn't think he would actually do it. I thought I was just like, you

[A]

know, like, you're making a goof.

[B]

Yeah. But he stood up, so I was like, fine, I'll look. And then I looked, and it was. I was like, why would you stand up?

[A]

Yeah, you should have lied.

[B]

Yeah. If you're gonna commit, if you're gonna lie, just lie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, he shouldn't have stood up, but he did. And then a curiosity got the cat at that point. I was like, really? You're gonna listen? Okay, I'll check. Nothing's in there. That's fucking hilarious. So boys are liars.

[A]

I bet that the other part, as a person with kids, where it's nice to have some quiet space, is that part.

[B]

You don't have kids. I understand that you're hiding from me. There's no one else to hide from.

[A]

I'm just saying, to be able to sit in a bathroom and scroll your phone with some, like, uninterrupted space, it doesn't matter. The circumstance. That's just a good thing. It doesn't matter if you're by yourself in the middle of the woods in a privy, or you're surrounded by three

[B]

kids trying to burn your house down right when some. Like, right when something needs to happen. It's like. Like you're sitting on the couch for however long, and then something needs to happen. And then it's like, oh, I'm just gonna go poop first. It's like, couldn't you have just gone and sat there for 30 minutes when we didn't have other things to do?

[A]

Like, what are the things?

[B]

I don't know. I can't remember any specifics at the moment because I'm not psychotic enough to actually, like, keep a mental score. But all I'm saying is we don't have kids. I would understand it then, because I'd be hiding too, and we would be fighting over who could hide. But. And. And the day to day. I don't know, I just. I can't imagine a human poops as much or takes as long. Yeah, I'll.

[A]

I will say I do think my poops are shorter now with kids because I hope Jenna feels the same way. But there's always a sense of guilt when she's solo parenting and I'm gone. Like, there's been points where it's like, can I go to the bathroom right now? Like, I'm asking for permission to go do a thing. I don't want to paint my wife to be a witch. My wife is the sweetest person alive. But it's just. It's. It's a lot.

[B]

Well, I saw a video that was like, a woman giving a PowerPoint to her husband the other day, and it was things that you shouldn't say when you get home from golfing all day on Saturday. And it was like, I'm tired. I need to go lay down. It was like, things you should say. And it's like, wow, thank you so much for. And then it's like an entire paragraph of all the. The wife did with the kids while he was gone. And then it's like, things that would be better to say. And it's like, would you like to take an equal amount of time to do something by yourself next Saturday?

[A]

No. This is. I think this is an ongoing debate for most young couples with kids, because that's a thing. That's like, who gets the more free time? Is they.

[B]

They've done studies. I think men get an average of 4 hours more a week. Was the study I saw.

[A]

Oh, they're not studying my house. I've never been surveyed on that one. But, yeah, okay.

[B]

Well,

[A]

yeah, no, but moral of the story is impromptu relationship advice. Always say yes when your spouse wants to go do the thing. Not only because your spouse's mental health is very important, but that also, provided you don't have a terrible spouse, that buys you time to go do the thing that you want to do.

[B]

The thing is, though, I don't say no. You know, like, not only do I say yes, you don't have kids.

[A]

You should be saying yes to everything.

[B]

Agree. But you also shouldn't be hiding in a toilet. Right. So not only do I say yes, but it's like, hey, I know we had plans tonight, but I want to go to the abs game with my friend, because whatever. And it's like, sure, fine, absolutely. You can go. Can you drive me? Yes. And I could pick you up. That's how that. You know. Like, great. We don't have anywhere else we should be. If I'm not drinking tonight, I will absolutely. Dd you guys there and back. Even if I thought that we were going to sit on the couch and watch a movie, maybe he's not.

[A]

Does he have a constipation issues?

[B]

No, I'm just saying I don't want to just to circle it back. We don't need to talk about Gareth's butt too much, but just to circle it back. I think I poop incredibly fast because I don't bring my phone in there. I'm going in there with a purpose and then I leave.

[A]

Yeah, good. We answered the question that wasn't asked. I mean, I asked it, but no,

[B]

I can't even turn my phone on. If I sit down on the toilet and I go to even like open an app, I'm done before I even open it. I just bring my phone in for no reason.

[A]

Yeah, no, I.

[B]

Then you need your hand.

[A]

Not to distract us, but I. I love the just toilet unadulterated time of just like mindlessly scrolling.

[B]

Apparently your butthole can prolapse if you do that.

[A]

I'm sure my butthole's a complete wreck, but I'm on the wrong side of 40 now, so I'm closer to death than the beginning.

[B]

Yeah. I remember when I learned that 40 was apparently middle aged. That was a shock. I thought 50 because I thought halfway to 100. And then I remember my nanny just like laughed.

[A]

What do you think? The median. Are they? Yeah, the average. The average. What's the average death age in the

[B]

US Depends on if it's men or women. Women live about five years longer.

[A]

No, it's not that much of a difference, is it?

[B]

Oh, yeah, that's why. That's why I married young or younger. I didn't marry young. I'm 34. But Garrett's younger. He's two years younger. Gotta bridge that gap somehow. I'm not going first.

[A]

Wow, it is five years. Holy shit. That's crazy.

[B]

I am an encyclopedia of knowledge.

[A]

That's cause people's wives would be busting into the bathroom and making them reveal their shits. Like. No, I'd just rather go check out the afterlife.

[B]

Sitting in the bathroom, letting your butthole fall out.

[A]

All right, discuss how guests are chosen. This is less interesting. It's predominantly me, but anytime I'm on the fence, I definitely will take a. It's not a poll. I asked Chance.

[B]

We can go. Okay, we can. We can do a little more in depth here for the process of. How do we find them? Guest recommendations are usually the best guests who request guests. Request the best guests.

[A]

Especially if they're good guests.

[B]

Yes, good guests who recommend guests recommend the best guests.

[A]

So, like, Jabba pretty much has had a golden ticket. Katie Jackson's gotten a few on the show.

[B]

Dirtmonger, I think, has suggested one or two Good ones.

[A]

Dirt monger can say anything and the answer is yes. Skerka. Yeah, there's like it.

[B]

I think if Cuckoo were to suggest something, we'd be like, yeah, Travis could tell us to do something.

[A]

We'd be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've grown, if you're a limb in our trust tree. Yeah, you can say anything and we're just gonna believe you.

[B]

Right. So that's like a fat. That's like Chutes and Ladders. Like, you're, You're. Well, I guess the opposite of it. It would be like taking the la. It would be taking like the shoot if the shoot was a good thing. And shoots and ladders, it's actually a bad thing in shoots and ladders. But anyway, it's taking the fast track. If you are in that trusted circle, especially if you've recommended one and then it's a banger, then you can really say whoever. And we're kind of just not really gonna like, we'll vet a bit more. Rachel, will you? And I probably won't as heavily a little bit, but not do that. But not as heavily.

[A]

I've gotten more involved in the last. There was a period of time, I think when we were early on, when I was just like, happy to have a suggestion, but every guest that comes up on asana.

[B]

No, no, I'm talking about like, like, like Travis DMs you directly and says, hey, my buddy's in town. You would love recording with him.

[A]

For better or for worse. For worse. Even when, like, somebody that I know and like and respect recommends someone, I still funnel it through Rachel just to keep the process as smooth as possible.

[B]

It used to be more fun.

[A]

Yeah, no, I mean, I. I'm particular about it. I really am, but.

[B]

But so, but to start, Chauncey's right. Chance is saying essentially, one of the

[A]

funnels, word of mouth is the best way.

[B]

The trusted circle, that's one of the funnels. The other funnel is just suggested guest form. That's something that Rachel keeps track of. And that's the next best way. Because if Rachel doesn't have it in her organization, it doesn't exist.

[A]

True.

[B]

Like, people will come up to us and be like, oh, you should have this person on. And it's like, that's such a thought. Like, that's such a good idea. You should submit a guest form. Not because I'm trying to give you extra work, but because if you're saying this verbally to me and not in writing to Rachel, it's Not gonna. It's not gonna be remembered.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's another way she's our catch all. And usually people suggesting other people is best. And then I would say lower on the tiers, people suggesting themselves.

[A]

I think that we've had some great. I think Fancy Feast has been a self recommendation.

[B]

Well, she found yourself.

[A]

That's right, that's right. That's right.

[B]

We've had some good ones.

[A]

But I. McDaniel, I think was a self recommendation. The thing that he was a very good guest.

[B]

The thing that's hard with the self recommendation though, is that like, it's harder to be cognizant of who you are as a conversationalist or like how entertaining your own stories are.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

If you're pitching yourself versus if someone pitches you, you've had a good conversation with them. That left that kind of impression.

[A]

Yeah. A lot of times when people pitch someone, it's like somebody that they follow on YouTube or Instagram or whatever. And that can be a bit tenuous. Again, if it's somebody that has like a personal connection with someone. I agree. That's most. That's like the most golden thicket of them all. But sometimes I feel like some of our best guests come from the self recommendations because they have that bravado and like, provided you're not fabricating anything that you're saying, you're. You're giving your actual resume, that that confidence translates well to being a good guest in a podcast.

[B]

Yeah. I would say also, how are, I guess, chosen? We. We've done so many episodes, especially in the earlier years, that are just like, I hiked the at, what are the best shelters you stayed at, what were the best foods you had in town? You know, like all the questions that like we've asked a million times. So there we got to a point where it was like to just have done a long trail. No longer feels like enough of a qualifying answer. Because while yes, it's incredible you did the at, or yes, it's incredible that you'd even triple crowned. Are those going to be unique enough stories from ones that we've already had on, or are we going to be describing what route you did on the cdt? And it's the same flow of the conversation we've had a couple times already. So then we got to a point where we started trying to find like a one level deeper where it's like, yes, you're a long distance hiker, yes, you've done this or these trails. What's one level deeper on what Would make this a good conversation. Is it someone like, we just had on where you're a military vet and you negotiated with Al Qaeda? Is it like the person we had on where you are on a boat and you're crossing the middle of the ocean and you're going through these, like, sailor rituals? Is it, you know, like, what is the added. Or when we had the God. I can't remember the name of the book off the top of my head right now, but when she was in the JMT and she thought she was going to die, it was like, when you find my body, some it's on the shelf. But she had gotten into that ski accident, basically. In all these stories, there's a component further of, yes, I did this trail, but then also this other thing will give it a little bit of an edge compared to someone else who's done this trail too. And so that. That. That distinguishing, like, this is what. This is what separates me from the other stories that sound like, this is probably the hugest part, at least that I look for now, where it's like, okay, this resume is great. We've talked about all this stuff before. We start to picture how would this conversation go in the chair. And then it's like, well, what are. What are we. What's the part that's gonna be, like, unique, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Chaunce and I are striving for interviews that are engaging for us because we feel like that translates well to the listener. And it's just really tough to have the same triple crown trail hiking experience over and again and, like, authentically have an engaging experience with that. So, like, yeah, we're always looking for what's the interesting thing, Whether it be within your hiking experience or outside of your hiking experience is, like, something that we haven't heard before.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're catering the show, I mean, honestly, selfishly to ourselves, But I think that translates well for somebody who's been listening for all eight years. Is like, we're not trying to recreate any.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're not trying to recover any ground that we've been over. Like, we want this to be novel and fun every single episode. And that's just hard to achieve if, like, you want, like, oh, what was the coolest shelter that you stayed on? The ats. Like, we can only do that for so long before it starts to feel repetitive.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, it sounds so counterintuitive to be, like, it has to be interesting for us because it's like, we're not the point, you know? And it's like, I. I'm not. Like, this goes out to how many listeners? Where it's like, I'm not more important than any of you listening in terms of, like, who's going to have a better time listening. But at the same time, I think it's absolutely right what you're saying, where it's like, if we're bored in the interview, it comes through. It's gonna be like, we're not gonna be razzle, dazzling, and then that's gonna come through the listener, and then they're gonna feed off of our board energy. So it's not that we're. We're so important that we need to be entertained. It's more that, like, we need to be very cognizant. It's like, getting enough calories. Like, if I don't get enough calories, if I don't get enough entertainment out of this, I'm not going to perform.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you're not going to enjoy it because it's not going to be fun.

[A]

There's times where, I mean, aside from the headsets and whatnot, like, I. I want this to feel like we are having a conversation and not making a podcast. I. And a good conversation is just something organic and unique and novel. And if you've had. This is why I don't like small talk. Like, you've retreaded the same conversations a thousand times. Like, it's. It's hard for me to stay engaged with that. I think that translates to having a good conversation interview in a podcast. That being said, some of our best guests don't necessarily have the most engaging or, like, the most novel stories. I should say. It's just their vibes are good.

[B]

Yeah. I would say that's a caveat. And that's something that's really hard because you can't. You can't really gauge this from a form. But sometimes there's. It's hard because it's like, okay, why. Why would I get told no for an interview when this is what I'm bringing to the table? And you've had someone on that has done, like, how come they were a yes and we were a no? And it's simply a matter of, well, because the chicken came before the egg in this situation, and they claimed that spot for that niche top or whatever it was. Right?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But then at the same time, oh, my God, where did it just go? This hot.

[A]

Vibes.

[B]

Vibes. Yes. It doesn't necessarily have to be like, oh, my God, I've got this super angle to what I do. Sometimes someone is just so entertaining to listen to, talking or just like. And this is where I think friends recommending friends or like, the guest suggestion suggesting another person, like, is strength. Because when you have this personality where it's like, maybe my stories aren't, like, the most novel, but if you sit in a room with this person, you won't leave for three hours. Like, that kind of vibe where it's like, all right, like, why? You know, like, I'm intrigued. And those end up being really great, too.

[A]

So I didn't have. I experienced the strongest trail days fomo when it was Travis sent me a photo of him. Moron and horsepower. Did I say me? Yeah, sorry. Like, and being. I can feel like I'm in the room with that group and just like, shooting this shit. Like, that's what makes a good podcast. Like, that's the thing that we've been chasing this entire time is like, forget that the mics are here. It doesn't have to be question and answer. It's just like a good, funny conversation where we can riff on a variety of shit. Like, that is. That's what. Where the magic exists.

[B]

Yeah, I agree completely.

[A]

What are some surprising things you've learned about what goes into making the podcast?

[B]

The amount of people it takes. When we started, it was just me and Zach. I remember we were, like, especially in the beginning, nervous to bring on an intern because, again, we weren't getting paid yet, so we didn't have a budget to pay an intern. And, like, an unpaid Internet will only put forward so much effort because they're not, you know, like, everything makes sense in this equation.

[A]

Was Elise working before we paid her?

[B]

No, this was. There were two people. You want me to say them out loud?

[A]

Mara.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Mara came after Elise. We had two people before Elise. Actually. Actually, I think we had three.

[A]

Who?

[B]

Apple. Remember Apple? And there was a girl whose name started with a D. We had three people that were unpaid, and it kind of fizzled out with each of them. And then.

[A]

You're not confusing us with hiking from

[B]

homework, I promise you. I'm not. I promise you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

This is before Elise. Elise was the first one we paid, I believe, because we had a conversation about how, like, we just, like, it was more work to train and oversee and, you know, surround this person's tasks than what we were getting back from it. And the lack of engagement, it was due to a lack of monetary compensation. And then we. And then we switched completely and we said, okay, let's Try this again, but let's try paying someone. And I think that was when we got Elise, and it was just magic. And then Elise had to go do something, and we got Mara, and then Elise came back, and then we got Rachel, and then Elise left, and then we got Sarah, and then Elise came back. But everything Elise. Everything Elise on was paid. But we had. But we had. I remember because I remember exactly where I was sitting at in a brewery when I was working with one of them. And I was like, I. I, like, I can't even, like, ask you to do something by a deadline because I feel bad because, like, there's no. There's no reason to, you know? And that was. I remember that being hard for us in the first six months because we weren't doing it because we're assholes. We were just like, we're both volunteering for this too. The hopes of what it could be. And we're just trying to get like a, you know, another leg forward. And it just. It didn't work the way we thought it would. And then Elise came along.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I would say that was something that, like, that was something not surprising. Like, paying someone isn't surprising. I think what's more surprising is we even had a lot of back and forth about if we needed a person. Like, is that worth the task of paying someone for? Can't we just, like, one of us can take it and, like, dividing the tasks amongst ourselves? And then we got Paulie, which was because, like, that just really needed to happen.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And then it was like, well, we're already paying Paulie. What is this extra person going to do that we can't do? Because we didn't even start with all the social medias. We started with just, like, one or two. Like, we didn't even have them at first. And then we added them in slowly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it was like, well, how do we. Who's gonna make the content? Who's gonna schedule all this stuff that

[A]

was coming was originally in the Rachel role.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we broke her off when we found that we had enough. So I think what we learned over time was like, a, you can't do it all yourself, and B, when you think that you are at a place where it's like, okay, like, I'll just get one person and they'll help with this part. Like, there's so much more to grow because now we've got, like, six people. We've got Elise, who does the socials. We do. We have Rachel, who Does the guest outreach. Chris does the video. Paulie does the editing. You're. Who's the graphic guy that does the. Who did the T shirt?

[A]

Another Chris.

[B]

Another Chris. He steps in and he does graphics for our flyers and our promotional events. We have you and me. That's seven right there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's just like.

[A]

I mean, if we're.

[B]

Oh, and then we had Leah. Sorry I left Leah out. Leah was before Sarah. Yeah, can't leave out Leah. I'm sorry, Leah. But all that to say, like, to go from a position where it was us two and we're like, don't worry, we can handle it all. And, like, we're really just outsourcing to Paulie because we like that part. We can't handle to it being like seven, eight of us at a time. When you count everyone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think that was, like. If you told us that day one, we would have probably gotten intimidated by that.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I think as things grow, you'll grow more scaling out the help as well. And, like, money invested in people like Rachel and Elise is never money misspent. I think is what I've learned for

[A]

our situation that is 100% accurate. I'm reluctant to give that advice just because I know the failure rate of podcasts.

[B]

You're right. But we waited until we weren't failing. That's what I'm saying. We didn't do it in the beginning.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just, I. I don't want to mislead someone because probably somebody listening to this who wants to start a podcast is not going to make money on their podcast.

[B]

Let me. Okay, let me set. Let me clarify one thing before we. We think. This is my full opinion. I don't think a majority of people out there that would listen to this and start their podcast would need to go hire eight people.

[A]

I don't even.

[B]

I don't think we. We wouldn't do that. What I'm saying is that, like, and. And we didn't do that. We went six months where it was just us and we didn't pay. We didn't.

[A]

You know, I mean, that's the point that I'm trying to.

[B]

What I'm saying is go slow. But what. But for us, it was one. What was one thing that surprised us along the way into. Go into making this podcast? One thing that surprised me about this one specifically is how much we've scaled the team throughout it.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with you. I think I would reframe it just to say how much work it is.

[B]

To make the podcast. That's an easier way to say it.

[A]

Because the team is reliant on money. Because I, I don't. Especially now. It was different when I first started because I was an unpaid intern in many previous realms and I actually benefited greatly from that. But nowadays I feel differently about it that you pay people that work for you. But I also think it's good to bootstrap things and it's good to have something be financially viable before you're scaling a team. If we were going to do this over again, I would 100% it just be you and I brunting the fucking work until we can prove this out.

[B]

I think if we were to do it again, we might have paid at least maybe two months sooner, maybe.

[A]

Was she unpaid? You mean just hire her sooner?

[B]

Yeah, like hired her and paid her two months sooner.

[A]

You know, I agree.

[B]

Like, I wouldn't start with a team. I wouldn't.

[A]

I full sign off on the part of delegating work. And honestly, like, that's, that's one area where I still fail to this day is not delegating enough. But yeah, there's just so much between guest research, guest outreach, coordinating schedules, advertiser outreach.

[B]

Remember we were sending like seven emails a week to potential advertisers without even

[A]

touching the advertiser side of it. Because honestly, that's probably half of the lift in terms of like invoicing and working through the copy and then working through specific schedule.

[B]

Like, oh, I'm not even talking about your roles, I'm talking about Sarah had that. Remember we were doing like the outreach.

[A]

I now do that part. Yeah. Pull out the money making aspect of it just, just to make the podcast portion come to life. Is a metric fuck ton of work. So that moral of the story is if you want to create a podcast, you have to really love what you're doing because.

[B]

And be organized.

[A]

I think definitely 100%.

[B]

Because like, if you have a guest who's willing to come on and you don't follow up with them, like soon enough to the episode, and then they're wondering, am I still going? Where's the link? Is it on a calendar? Anywhere? And then like you need their headshots for your promotional materials and you don't remember to ask, and then you have to go back after the episode's up or any of that stuff, and then they have to ask you, hey, where's the episode? Do you have the link? When's it going out? Like, all this stuff is stuff that we don't ever need to think about because Rachel has a cadence that she follows and an email flow with templates that she follows that she's created. Where it's like if we have interest in a guest. Here's email one probing for interest. Here's follow up email two. Here's prep going into the interview. Here are things to know and questions to answer to help me prep the show notes. Here's what to expect. Let me get your phone number in case we need to call you or you're late for any reason. Now we're going to the episode. Now, here's an episode. Here's an email saying, hey, this is the date that your episode's expected to go out. We will email you and let you know the links. When it does. Can I get some headshots? Here's a follow up. Your episodes going out on Monday. Here's your link. The entire like flow of just that one conversation path that Rachel controls is so much organization that makes this a legitimate podcast. So that when a guest like Skirka or like John Mackey, like fricking Whole Foods, you know, like any, any. So anyone who's going to be expecting something that's a little polished, like, they come here expecting that because Rachel has set this impression leading up to it,

[A]

they mislead them into thinking, sure, fake

[B]

it till you make it, baby. But, you know, all of that goes on and it's. It's huge.

[A]

Yeah. No, yeah. If you can design an all star team for podcast creation, you need at least one person on the team who is dangerously organized. And we have precisely either of those at the table. Yeah. Zero. Here you are.

[B]

You have your own business.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm, I. The success is not due to organization. I could be less organized, certainly, but I'm not Rachel's level.

[B]

No, you are.

[A]

Yeah. No. How many interviews or segments have had to be cut?

[B]

I think we cut one interview.

[A]

Two.

[B]

Well, we didn't air one interview. We took down a second.

[A]

True. Yes. That is to my memory.

[B]

I don't remember which one we didn't air. I remember.

[A]

I'll say it. Offer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Elite will put it in the Patreon. It. It's not even meant as a dig. I'll give the story behind it. You guys know the, the more recent one if you're regular listeners of the show. The other one that I'm referencing was earlier.

[B]

Oh, sorry. I was thinking of a third one. I was thinking of one that we took down and were inquired about recently as to why we took it down.

[A]

That's the one. That's one of the two that I'm referencing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There was one when they never even put up. And then there were those two.

[A]

Right. What was the first one? Text me the first one that you said.

[B]

I don't remember. The. The first one was one we interview. We did the whole interview and we just decided to wash it and never air it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't remember who it was with.

[A]

I know who it is. I. For some reason, I don't think you were there. Were you there?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

This was back in the Wayfinder days.

[B]

I can't remember.

[A]

I think that you weren't at that one. But my memory could be wrong. So the most recent one is the obvious one. Yes. There's another one that we've taken down. We don't have to get into that. Not important. But there was one that was recorded that never made.

[B]

That's what I'm saying. There's only one that we recorded that we never even.

[A]

I'll text it to you right now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

This was someone is someone who I like very much, who always makes me laugh at the meetups. Someone I knew from the trail community in other ways. Like, it just has a really funny, cool personality. And then this was a rare instance where we just put them in front of a podcast mic and they just got so nervous and like the conversation. I pulled it for the purpose of the podcast. But also I didn't think that it was going to be like a good reflection.

[B]

It's not a good representation of the person's personality. They're so much more than what would have been.

[A]

It was just a little bit of stage fright. This person has amazing vibes and was a good selection for podcasts. It just didn't work out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that I'm still friendly with that person. There's no ill will in either direction, obviously. But yeah. That happened one time. Literally in 300. How many interviews? It's actually incredible that that's only happened one time.

[B]

I think that. But I think that also, like, the segments do help because, like, we've taken ones that. And not because they're bad, but sometimes like. And I'm not saying this as this is the example. I'm just saying this as an example. But sometimes when we do something that's more info heavy, like when we're talking about lightning awareness.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Just an example. That's not one that I would say wasn't good because that one was great. But things like that are More info heavy and not as personal story heavy. And so those. Those ones can come across a little more dry. And once we've refined our segments, now we have segments in a place where we can just really freak out on those. And that, like, offers some balance to the episode. If anything, we leave the segments being like, thank God the interview is a little drier, because that was weird.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know?

[A]

Yeah. We try to give it all here on the podcast is. Sometimes we're talking about our owls. Aliens. And sometimes we're talking about, like, really serious.

[B]

I love those episodes.

[A]

Really serious subjects.

[B]

Those are the most. The most. My most recommended to other people episodes. I've tried to get so many people to listen to the Mike Leland episodes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I try so hard. I have downloaded it on people's phones. I talk about it at the bar. I like, really, really encourage people to listen to that one. Both of them. They're just so freaking good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't do that with other ones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm not like, oh, my God, you should listen to my projects, you know? But that one, I'm like, dude, you ever see an owl listen to this?

[A]

There's certain guests that we have on where I'm like, you have to hear this person's story. Yeah, Justin, True.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's one where I'm like, oh, that was great. This is not even related to backpacking. And, like, I just. I'm really impressed by you as a human being.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Well, we have a question about that later, actually. And Justin wasn't even on my list, so we unearthed a good one. And I don't think we've ever cut a single segment.

[B]

No, we haven't cut segments. We have. We've cut, like, words and phrases, but rarely. Rarely.

[A]

Like one out of every 75 episodes.

[B]

Yeah. Sometimes someone, like, says something that we're,

[A]

like, protecting them from their self.

[B]

We don't think they meant that that way. That probably slipped out. And we'll just put a little note here to cut that because. Yeah, that isn't.

[A]

I have a question for you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I have my own answer, but I'm not doing it to do that. But I have a feeling that you're probably simpatico with your feeling on this. How long did it take you to get over an episode where you felt like you said something dumb or you can just fucking let it go?

[B]

I still do it. I won't watch the social clips for this week's episode that is out right now because I think I look drunk in it because I was. But. And so when I got home from that one, there was about 48 hours of just shame that I couldn't get out of my head about. And this is like, two weeks ago,

[A]

you know, like, I was, like, six days ago. Yeah.

[B]

No, no, no, no. Not the Jabba one. That one was also. I'm talking about the Steve one that's out right now.

[A]

Oh, oh, oh.

[B]

When you're like, would you hike the American Discovery Trail if I died? And I was like, would you hike it if I died? I've got an idea. What about you hike. You know, I just, like, stopped watching because I was like, you're an idiot.

[A]

Oh. I'll give you the synopsis as people are on your side for that one, which is always how it goes.

[B]

Great. I haven't watched, but I like. I think that's a personality trait of mine, is I'm gonna feel post shame about anything I can, especially when it's, like, somewhat fuzzy, because then I fill in the gaps with the worst I've just had. And I'm using this as an example because it's the most recent one, but I've just had to. What I basically repeat and tell myself is like, yeah, objectively, like, not a great look in most contexts, but at the same time, I'm coping and processing in real time. Like, the idea of I said this on Jobs episode, my entire identity shifting. Something that I've. It's been a defining part of my adult life for all of what seems like my adult life, and that's very tough and challenging to do, and I could do that on my own time, and I could come here and I could put on a great face, and we could have a great episode, and that could be fun. But I feel like the listener has been here for so much that if I am struggling with it or having a harder time with it, and I can laugh about it in the moment in some sort of way, like they deserve or they're worth not. They deserve. You don't deserve anything from me, but you might be worth getting that inside peek into it not being the easiest thing. The downside to that is then the

[A]

next you're saying, I'm gonna. Without the listener, we are. This podcast is nothing.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And so we're grateful to them being a part of this, and they've been

[B]

with me for so long that they deserve to see the emotion I go through as I'm leaving and not just see me be like, well, it's been fun, guys. Bye. You know, and so I go back and forth in my head about that. Cause I'm like, on one hand, this video is really cringey to watch. And like, oh, my God, if this two minutes is like this, the entire episode, my God, what do people think? I'm so embarrassing and ashamed and shameful and stupid and dumb and I'm never drinking again and you're such an idiot. All the thoughts in my head and then I have to eventually balance out and be like, okay, but on the flip side, if you didn't just be yourself and, like, deal with this in front of the mic and in person, A, that's not authentic. And B, I just feel like they deserve a closed circle where it's like, you've had all. You've gotten unfiltered me for all this time, but I'm gonna put on a front now to try to look good. I'd rather just feel ashamed for three days.

[A]

I would need you to know that I did not ask that question. Probing about how you felt about recent episodes, that it's zero.

[B]

No, that's fine. It just happens to be relevant.

[A]

Sure, sure, sure. But I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say, and I'm curious to get your perspective on. It is early on when I would say something stupid on this podcast. Not only stupid, stupid is one thing, but, like, stupid and something that you regret. Because, like, keep in mind the listener that once a week for three hours, we're just up here trying to create a thing. And in that span of time, even if you're confident in 99 of what you're saying, even if you misfire 1% of the time, you're gonna put your foot in your mouth. When I would put my foot in my mouth, that would literally keep me awake at night.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

For the first few years of this podcast, I've since gotten way better about it. It still definitely is a little bit of a thorn in my side. But that's the one area where I feel like more so than even the criticism that comes from the thing that I've said. It's more so how I feel about the thing that I've portrayed for people. That bothers me a lot more. And I've gotten better at just, like, accepting, like, you know what? I think people know that my intention is good and that I'm fucking dumb and that they're gonna give me a little bit of grace.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I. I agree. It happened more in the beginning. I can't say that there was ever a switch because it still Happens. It's better. I agree that it's better. I don't know how, but it is. But, like, there's. Okay, another example, because this happens all the time. When we had the vicar. The vicar.

[A]

I was not there for that one. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And I was explaining to her. I was telling her how, like, we were talking about, like, people who aren't traditionally like, the people that you would see in church. And I was telling her how my church growing up was, like, very inclusive, and I didn't realize that people were just, like, mean to certain people because of who they loved or what they. Whatever. It just, like, didn't occur to me in a church setting growing up, because that just wasn't the one I went to. And we were talking about it. I was like, yeah, mine was a light community. It was on the banners, it said light. A light community. She's like, what does that mean? And I was like, it means lesbian, interracial, gay, heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual. And that's what light stood for. And she was like, I've never heard of that. I'm like, yeah, it was really cool. And, like, it said it on the banner. Right, okay. Anyway, I digress. So when I drive home from the podcast, I call my best friend from home and we chat, and she went to my church. We lived across the street. And so I told her that story, and I was like, oh, my God, I get to tell this story about our church and how cool it was that we were in a white community and all this stuff and, like, how I used to just see, like, you know, lesbian couples all over when I was young. And it just never occurred to me that that was a problem until people said it was. And she was like, what? Like, what are you talking about with that? With the definition of the letters? She was like, it was just a light community. It didn't. The letters didn't stand for anything. I was like, no, they did. It was on a banner. I remember seeing it when I was young. We called my mom on the way home from this podcast. We three wayed her into the call, woke the woman up, and we were like, what did the word light stand for? She's like, it didn't stand for anything. What are you talking about? I don't know where in my life I saw this in writing somewhere at that church. But I like, I believe you. I believe me, too. I believe me, too. I'm not the problem here. But the problem is, is that that was wrong. And I looked it up online, and I couldn't find a trace of it anywhere. And I've just said this to a podcast with 10 million downloads.

[A]

Yeah. But I don't think anyone's gonna question you.

[B]

No. And I never brought it up again because I was like, you don't need to. You don't need to call out when you're wrong about things. People will just not look into it and forget. But this still eats away at me because I know I was wrong.

[A]

And it's like, that's a really charitable. I wish my memory was so charitable that it, like, would rewrite history to.

[B]

I think it was on a banner somewhere. I swear to God, it was on a banner.

[A]

I believe you. I'm gonna be on yours.

[B]

All you need to do is be the one person in admin who, like, makes a mistake once, and you're like, people. People won't remember. And then there's me 30 years later who, like, ingrained this into my brain. Right? Like, maybe someone put it on a banner.

[A]

That's a good mistake.

[B]

I don't know. But. But to circle back. Yes. There are times where, like, even if I say something that's not embarrassing, where, like, you could listen to that whole conversation, you could just think, like, that's a great combo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or I'm still all the one, like, kicking myself because I'm like, ugh, yeah.

[A]

No, that used to be a much bigger paranoia of mine. And, like, I try to relay that to a guest, either pre or post show, where they'll be like, I didn't feel so good about that one thing. I'm like, I assure you, I've said ten dumber things in, like, in the same episode. Like, people are pretty forgiving about this stuff.

[B]

Maybe Wisconsin was my turning point, because that was like, a Stay up for like, a week or two just in shame and, like. But you know what? Then I think. What? Actually, I'll pin that as the turning point, because what happened from there is you created the soundboard, and I hate you for it. Yeah. But it turned into something where it was like, not only do you say something dumb, but we're also going to immortalize it. So you. You better just accept it fast.

[A]

It is so funny.

[B]

So, yeah. So every time we play that, it's just like a memory of, like, my worst day of life. And at some point, that has to happen where you say, you know what? If I got past this, I'll get past whatever else I do. That's dumb.

[A]

Yeah. This is where, if I was prepared, you.

[B]

You better be the triple Crown is yours.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I don't know how I'm supposed to help out with that.

[A]

I have to redownload the app. I think, Alas, I'll figure it out before we get to segments. Don't worry about it. Okay, for each of you. How has the other person changed since episode one? I think we've covered this a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've become a much better interviewer. We've both become much better.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

I think you've improved more than I have.

[B]

I think you've become more flexible and in what way? All. Like, we talked about the intern thing. We talked about the segment thing. All the, like, I think, was I

[A]

opposed to an intern, Just the paid

[B]

ones in the beginning because we weren't getting paid, like, and not. Not in any sort of way. It's just like, we weren't getting paid, you know? Yeah, that's fine.

[A]

I don't even remember you. You referenced three names. I don't even.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Sounds terrible.

[B]

I know. It's fine. Anyway. But I think also in terms of, you own. You own the track and you like things as. As do I. This is. I'm the same way, but I like things done in a very certain way. And I think you believe what I believe, where sometimes it's easier to just do something yourself than have to explain to someone else how to do something exactly how you want it to be done.

[A]

I don't delegate.

[B]

And so I think in the beginning, especially when it was establishing itself, it was hard to. It was hard to get you to delegate certain things because, like, there's such a. It's so personal to you and. And the stakes are higher where it's harder to let go of some of that stuff. But over time, I've noticed you get better at that. Even when it came to, like, we're sending out those advertiser outreach messages, and even though that's like a general template that we're plugging and playing people into, like, for a while it was like, I've got these connections. Don't worry about it. Like, I'll just handle these conversations.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so, like, things like that, where you, like, like, slowly allowed and accepted more help, I think was a way that I've noticed growth amongst you over the course of things.

[A]

Yeah. I will be hiring a salesperson here once financially.

[B]

But that's so huge for you to even say. I remember when you said that to me, I was like, really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're going to be able to do that?

[A]

Well, this is not something I'm comfortable discussing on air. Not for the reasons you might think, but mostly I think that that's. That relationship is. Is pretty delicate in the way that it's handled. Can be really impactful to like a first impression. Yeah, that's. That's as far as I'll get.

[B]

But also like, it's. You're dealing with monetary things in regards to your company. So it's a lot less steps in the work path for you to negotiate a deal with someone than for someone else to have to negotiate one and come back to you and check, you know, each step of the way.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah. A lot of this is not an on air conversation.

[B]

That's a service level as we need to go.

[A]

But in terms of like, stuff like social media where I don't feel particularly strong about anything. Yeah, I could. I definitely was much more trying to shape every part of the sculpture at a certain point. And I've. There's now parts where I'm just like completely hands off.

[B]

But I think that's good.

[A]

It's also necessary.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It just as a business that is trying to scale, that is absolutely a necessary thing. What phrase or habit has the other person has. Have you picked up? What other. What phrase or habit of the other persons have you picked up?

[B]

Let's stop being around the bush.

[A]

Do you say that?

[B]

No, but I think it in my head a lot.

[A]

Yeah. Maybe subconsciously I'd like for the listener to weigh in on this one. I don't know if I have any chunks. Systems.

[B]

Yeah. I think just let's. Let's stop beating around the bush.

[A]

Yeah, I did. I do say that a lot. I feel like I've said it less since you've pointed it out now.

[B]

I thought you were saying it every time as a point.

[A]

I mean, I do like some of the tradition of that stuff. I will say that. But until he shamed me.

[B]

Shame you? I just pointed it out.

[A]

Good question, Chan. How is the mile by mile project project going?

[B]

It's going. It's just because I've been quieter online about it doesn't mean it hasn't been. I have still been reading all my little books. I've got everything all nice and organized. I just. Here's the thing. This goes back to like with the first six months of Backpacker Radio. It wasn't paid. It was just us doing it and trying to see like what made sense. And for me, like, this isn't paid and I don't see any reason to rush myself through what I find to be very interesting stuff. I've read about 150 to 200 books focused around the East coast and the AT and the land that it covers. I've typed up notes for all of those books. I've got about 10 in the backlog that I'm working through typing up. The problem is that every time I read about one thing, then there's another book and I want to read about that. And then I spend too much time in one period that I lose some of my thoughts around another period. And then I pick up one of those books and then I dive all the way back in. And so I've been having a blast. I'm having a great time. I just need to decide when enough is enough and like, cut the rabbit holes a bit. And I just don't. I don't see the need to. Need to do that when I'm not at the moment doing this for anyone apart from myself. You know, I don't have a timeline I need to get through for a sponsor or a deadline for something or I haven't put out an episode yet. So I don't need to put one out in X amount of time before too much of a gap goes between them. I'm not in any of those positions yet. And so because I'm not there yet, I'm really enjoying just like sitting in the research phase. But it has been very fascinating. I've tried to go in order. And so when I look at like, what is good enough in terms of research generally for the area at large, I would say generally I have done good enough research for all the separate areas of trail through the Civil War and then after the Civil War, like this, the 1860s to the 1910s. I've done a really good amount of research on the industrialize industrialization and like the switch to urbanization. But just like that, that post Civil War period is where I'm at right now. And then there's kind of a jump where I went out of order. And I've done a lot of research just reading from dream to reality or books that are from the 1950s to present day because that's when they're actually building the trail or the 1910s to present day, because that's. I think it was between 1910 and 19. It was 1921. I think that Benton Mackay's article went into the Journal and then things came of that. And so from that point on, then it becomes an idea that the story revolves itself around. And then it becomes. They're building it. And then the 50s is when like Earl Shaver and them, whatever. So all that then becomes very trail focused. But up until then it's like, what's going on this land that isn't trail focused yet, but that the trail will then pass through. You know, for example, a road intersection where spots would crossed in the Shenandoah, looking for a route through the mountains. And they found this gap and they got excited and they started firing off volleys while celebrating, you know, like you don't know that shit walking through it. And that has nothing to do with the trail. But it's cool because it's on the trail and you walk right past it. And like that's cool to know. And so I've just been soaking up all of that and really enjoying it. And I've got all my notes organized in meticulous folders on the Google Drive and they're all there ready for me to turn them into things. I've got the first episode. So basically the first seven episodes are going to be intro episodes where it's like an introduction to these different themes across time, where instead of focusing on specific mileage of the trail, it'll focus on the trail at large through those themes. So the first theme is formation and inhabitation. Those are the first two. So how the mountains formed, what kind of flora, fauna, Native Americans inhabited the land prior to white settlement. And that I've got all scripted and written out. And like that's made me think maybe the first seven episodes are also more in line with the book because the way it reads for that first part is very intro to a book. So I haven't quite figured that part out yet. But it is very interesting. And the way I've written this first part, I've tried to build it in a way that like, how the mountains form, flow into how people moved across the US to how they got to these places to. Then they're now like making these groups where they're building these cities and they're having these like trade networks and all this crazy shit's happening and like things are getting big and you forget that like Hernando de Soto is going to walk into the woods and fuck everything. And then things are all going to change. And it's like now tribes are consolidating because disease is eradicating some of them. And these huge metropolises of culture and trade are now like ghost areas because people have had to move and relocate. And so there's a lot of really cool stories there and there's a lot of really Cool stories to it that don't even go into the nitty gritty of here's a 20 day section on trail and. Or a 20 mile section on trail and here's everything you should know within this 20 miles of what happened here. Just the bigger picture is so cool that I've gotten lost, lost in the sauce there. And I'm not trying to get out necessarily yet. So for now I've got a list of books that I'm trying to work my way through reading and uploading notes for. And when I'm done with those, then I want to sit back and look at maybe transitioning to writing again. I think the problem too is there's so many formats this could take. Like, it could obviously be a very good podcast. I'm a little intimidated because of the work that I know that went into this one to just like start with that, because that is a huge undertaking to chunk off. But then I've also thought about like, okay, I've got all these videos of the trail. I can make videos that use my trail videos of walking through these sections as I narrate the story. And that could be like a free consumable on YouTube or those like first seven themed things could be. There's so many different things that I could do with the research that I'm not really feeling pressured into deciding what to start with. It's more. I'm at the moment loving the game of it and I'm loving the reading and the learning and all the stories. And like, for me, selfishly, like, I'm having a great time. I know I should share it with you guys, but I'm having a great time and I don't want to rush that because I don't have a need to. And so it's not dead. In summation, it's not dead. It's not not happening. It's just I selfishly am treating it like a hobby because at the moment that's what it is. And so when it stops bringing me joy, I transition to something different and then I go back to it. But it's really cool if I, if I never do anything with it, which isn't the goal, but if I never do anything with it, like, it's just, it'll be cool for the inside of my brain to have learned everything I learned. So if anything, never a loss. But I'm not, I'm not in a place where I'm like, oh, it's not happening. I think it is still happening. And I'm excited to have more time to work on it. I just, I haven't wanted to rush and so I haven't

[A]

fair. The best projects come from passion, so once it starts to feel like work it, I think the quality can degrade some. And it also sounds like you're gonna have a lot more free time on your hands here shortly.

[B]

Sure does sound like that.

[A]

I gotta take a pee break.

[B]

I do too. Great.

[A]

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[B]

No, I've never had to be secretive for any reason other than like maybe something popped up. Let's go back. So how have I balanced it? It's been, I mean it's like working two jobs sometimes where like I'll go like when I worked in person especially you know going into work, leaving the house at 7:00am, getting there at 8, you know, working a full day and then driving to golden and then doing the podcast and then getting home at like midnight like that that it, it's a lot on the days it happens because when we started recording the podcast initially we recorded at 6:30 every night was our start time because my work was in person and it was 9 to 5. And by the time I could get to wherever we were after the end of the workday, if I got off at 5 and I left by 5:15, I would get there around 6. If there was traffic 6:15, it doesn't leave much time. I'm certainly not eating a meal between. And so those were long days. But I was also a younger chicken back then. And when things went remote for Covid, I. Well, even before things went remote for Covid, because Garrett was my boss. And so it was really easy to be like, hey, I've got the podcast today. I need to leave an hour early. And that was something that, in person, people didn't really get permission to do. So I kind of wiggled my way in there. But when we went remote, it was easier because it was like, hey, I've got an obligation these two days this week at this time. And it would just be like me taking off an hour earlier at work. And so what I would do for those days is I wouldn't take lunch. And so the way I would negotiate it with my manager once Garrett got a different job was I would say, I'm working through lunch, but I'm going to leave an hour early because I have something to go to. And they would be okay with that, and they were flexible with that. And then when I got the job that I have now, they were just like, way more work life balance, where it's all remote, and it's like, if you have something, just block off the time on your calendar. So people can't book demos during that time. And so we've been able to do some episodes with earlier recordings with enough time in advance, if I can get it on my calendar soon enough. But we do. Typically, it's more like it's not me trying to balance work with the podcast, it's trying to balance the podcast with work because, like, we'll have conversations where it's like, oh, we could schedule this person this day or this day, and it'll be like, okay, well, we already have two recordings this week. I realistically can't put a third and leave work early three times in one week. That's gonna, like, start to, you know, confuse people. So let's put it on this date. But I think, because a lot of scheduling goes around me and Zach's schedule and our availability, that we have been very good about, like, balancing it with work and not. There's never a place where it hits ahead because we're usually proactive about what can and can't be managed in advance. There's been some times where like I'll be on a call for work. Like let's say we have this. We bumped the time forward when we both got old to 4:45. It used to be 4:30 but we had a, we had a series of events where it was like I keep getting these calls that go from three to four and then I get off at four so I don't get out the door until 4:05 to 4:10. And then I'm not here at 4:30. I'm here like five minutes late. And that's not great for anyone. So then we pushed back to 4:45 and now we got like a 5:10 minute buffer for when I leave my desk to when I get here. And that works. But it's still a late night. Like, like it's still like a wake up. You work until 3:45 if lucky, then you start to prep to go. If you're on a call then four and then from there go here. It takes about a half hour with traffic and then we Press Record at 4:45 5 after we've typically done some pre banter, it's just typically more around 5 then we record till like 8830 ish. I leave here, I get home around 9 maybe 9 30. It just depends on the night. If it's a Java episode longer, if it's not a Java episode, sometimes shorter. But that's like a 12, 13 hour day. And so I think it would be hard to balance if I didn't enjoy doing this so much I think because for a, not for a long time, just for the time like it, it doesn't always feel like work. It feels like I get to go somewhere and talk to someone cool and like hang out and that, that makes it not like if it felt like a job, if it felt like I was going from my day job to like Wendy's and just working double shifts, I don't know if I would have lasted eight years. But it's very good though. They are so good. But it's been fun to do. So it hasn't. If anything it's, it's helped, it's helped me at work better because I get my fill of hiking talk and my fill of dirt baggery and that sort of thing when I come here and then I like go back to my desk feeling like I've had these conversations and that, that's good. I haven't had to be secretive with work. The only, like, the only thing that could be secretive is like if a guest wants to record earlier and it's last minute and so then I just toss a busy time on my calendar and then I just hope no one notices. But we usually don't put ourselves in those positions and we, and we, and we schedule things far enough in advance where it's like, if I've got something busy for, you know, the end of the day, three weeks out, who's going to be like, no, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I feel like 4:45 is the ultimate compromise time. Cuz yeah, I'd like to be done earlier. But obviously you have a 9 to 5, right? A 9 to 4, 8 to 4. Whatever it is that 4:45 we found. Yeah, scientifically is as early as you can do it. And it's better for me to be done earlier so I can, yeah. Be there with my family.

[B]

The hard thing is the, the 45 perks again. We tried 4:30 and it was like, I'm cutting it too close where this is not looking professional. And I think the thing that's a problem with like demos and things in like a sales world is like three to four could get booked in my calendar. Right. So if I'm blocking off 4:45 on, but I have to account for the time it takes to drive there, I'm blocking off 4 to 4 to 6 on my calendar, essentially because I need to leave the house by 4 to get here by 4:45. So if we were to move it even we were doing 4:30. Like okay, well if we did 4:30 in order to make that work, the reason why we thought it could work was it was like, okay, I just have to leave the house around 3:45. But if I have a meeting that could booked three to four, that doesn't happen. So essentially, if we didn't do 4:45, the next best thing we could do is 3:45. But then I would have to block off my calendar from three to six. And it's just like there's no. You have to go in those hour increments. There's no. Well, it's just 15 minutes because that's not really how the demo schedule works.

[A]

Were there any podcasts where you physically suffered through, were sick, exhausted or otherwise unwell? Seems like you're dying in many of them from an allergy standpoint.

[B]

Yeah. Vacuuming the rug was huge. Yeah, I can't believe we didn't think about that until Jolly told us to do It. But allergies aside, we're also really good about that. Like, if Zach's feeling under the weather, there's like a sickness going around with the kids. He'll send out a text and be like, hey, like, this is happening. Are you comfortable recording? And if I'm like, yeah, I don't care, then we ask the guest and we're like, hey, this is going on. Are you comfortable recording? Right, so it's never like, like, we would never want to come here if, like, I've got Covid or like, you've got the flu. Like, we would never want to come here and have someone who's traveling through or like about to go do a big hike or any of that stuff come here and get sick from us because we're being irresponsible.

[A]

We had a guest not that long ago where I was like a 6 out of 10 sick, I'd say, and I think in most circumstances I would have co hosted. And then we, we pitched to them and we learned that one of them was immunocompromised. So I sat it out. There's definitely been a number of podcasts where I've been sick, especially since having kids. My house is often sick and I feel like I'm a lot of times battling something but just generally unwell. I'd say for the nine months after having the twins, I was very sleep deprived and I've never felt more out of sorts than the period after having twins and just not sleeping. And like, I've learned that not all kids are created equal. I learned that Leo is pretty easy by all accounts, at least relative to my child havings. So, yeah, for nine months after having the twins and just being sleep deprived, I felt like I was hung. Like, whatever you want to call it, hungover, not emotionally. Well, there was a long period where I was just struggle bussing. So I don't even remember those podcasts.

[B]

I mean, we made completely separate group chats during that time because it was like, hey, Zach's not sleeping. He's a little irritable. He needs a break. If anything is not something that needs his approval on, let's just send it here so that, like, he doesn't need to get notifications on his phone even, you know, like, I can't imagine what that must be like to go through and live. And so based on me guessing, let's just, let's just quiet his phone a little bit while we can. And then I think something. I can't remember what it was, but something happened where you weren't included on a communication for something and you sent a text where it was like a little snippy and you're like, from now on, I should be cc'd on this, whatever going forward. And it was just like. And we're ready to go back to the main chat. He's ready to be involved again.

[A]

I think there was a thread where there was a joke about Chaunce getting the show notes and me going in blind, and I did not react to that well.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It was like you were getting prepped for it and I wasn't. And I'm like, that will not be happening. Thank you very much.

[B]

It was a joke because we were doing a panel and I was like, I want to put my answers first, so send it to me and not Zach. And then I think there was a miscommunication over the fact that I was joking. And so they sent it to me first and not you. And then I had my notes put in there and you were not happy.

[A]

I want to go back and look at the episodes that happened in 2023 because that was the height of delusion,

[B]

but that was time.

[A]

Yeah. Having twins is a thing. It's a real thing. Not sleeping for a long period of time in your later 30s, there are easier. I would say thru hiking is about 15 times easier than that.

[B]

So sick. Probably not, but like exhausted and otherwise unwell. Yeah. And I guess for me, I have not had twins, but I would say at the end of a quarter or the end of a month because I work a sales job and my quota is, you know, ever renewing. It's not about what you did, it's about what you did recently. And so if I'm like, not quite at quota and it's like the last couple days of a month and I have to like, put a block on my calendar to come here and leave work early. And I'm not yet at quota. Like, I'm not sick, but I'm not mentally well either. I'm very stressed the whole time and worried.

[A]

Though I will say, subtracting out the sleep deprivation part of it, there are plenty of days where I am stressed out when I come to the podcast and actually appreciate the podcast because it is able to get my mind off of. Like, I. I feel like the podcast does a good job for me to become present in something that isn't the bullshit that I've been swimming in for a long period of time. I. I'm very grateful to the podcast because it. It for me serves as a vacuum for that.

[B]

It's also such a good reality check where it's like, I'm so unwell and just unhappy and just stressed out because I'm one away from my quota or whatever it is I need. And, like, nothing's going my way and. And yada, yada, yada. And then you come in here and Justin True tells, like, a story about how, like, he, like, they did the lighter and the bug spray to him while he's in a dog cage. And I'm sitting here listening to it, like, and I have the fucking audacity to bitch about the day I had.

[A]

Put things in a perspective.

[B]

For sure. It does. Like, there's been so many times I've come in here in one of those moods, and then I just start listening to the guests, and I'm like, my problems don't mean anything.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

You know, like, I've never. Like, I don't have it hard compared to the average person. And anything that's a mountain to me is a molehill to someone. El. And gosh, the perspective is nice sometimes.

[A]

And all the veterans that we've had on the podcast, people have gone through some real shit on here.

[B]

Yeah. And I'm just in a bad mood. Cause something didn't go my way today. Like, okay, shut up, Johns.

[A]

Yep. Were there any moments you were nervous the podcast was done for? No, I don't think so.

[B]

No. I would say that, like, none of us were in the good books after Wisconsin, but, like, we can't be in trouble with ourselves.

[A]

I mean, the grand scheme of things. I can now look back at that and laugh.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Yeah. I think overall.

[B]

Same.

[A]

I think overall.

[B]

But, like, that may be the closest. Just being, like, not even though. Because it was like, we haven't ruined anything. Maybe we burned a bridge.

[A]

But. Okay. I put a call out on Instagram. We have more Rachel questions, but I want to interrupt it with some.

[B]

If you scroll down, there's some socials down there too.

[A]

Jess hikes, trails, asks, can I have her Bill's Snuggie.

[B]

Oh, Jess. It's not green or purple. And I thought Katie liked to wear it.

[A]

Katie's the one who wears it most often.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When she's here.

[B]

Stronger take if Katie asked. No, you can't. My dad got it for me as a Christmas present, and it's been in the office on the back of the door for all this time because sometimes it's mysteriously cold in here and I don't have a jacket.

[A]

She did follow up saying, go bills Go Bills.

[B]

Sad for the Sabers.

[A]

Speaking of Katie K. 80 Trail asks, How do you manage retaining a friendship while working together? Especially when one is an authority position?

[B]

We don't put that much work into maintaining a friendship.

[A]

We don't really hang out outside of the.

[B]

We don't really have a friendship.

[A]

No.

[B]

That's the answer. Just don't.

[A]

My, my social time is very limited since having kids. That's not something that's happened to me. That's a choice that I've made. So like when I do have social time, you know, I have a, I have a really like small group of friends that I hang out with and I don't really deviate from that. I don't, I don't like when Jenna signs me up for social activities that aren't like in my tight knit group of friends. But I'd say that we get along in a work context in a friendly way.

[B]

Yeah, I just like. But I think it's like it needs even less explanation. Like what? You're six years older than me with a wife and three kids. I'm six years younger than you, newly married, no kids. We don't really like.

[A]

We're in very much life stages.

[B]

Right. Our lives are in very different places. Like what can you imagine it being like, Jenna, I'm gonna go hang out with someone who's six years younger than me and doesn't have kids to just hang out and grab a beer while you watch the kids. That sounds really weird.

[A]

I'll ask. I think the more interesting question, or maybe the targeted question here is like, when we do stuff like the road trip, obviously most of the time on those trips is not on air. So we're working in a very personal context in a work setting. But for me, it's not that has ever felt like work. Like when we did the SoCal trip, when we did Wisconsin, New York, we've had times where we have butted heads and I think we've been pretty open about those confrontations even here on the podcast. But I think overall we've had fun. I think we've had a good time. Having a good time on those trips.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I think, yeah, I forgot the question. But yeah, I agree.

[A]

Yeah. But yeah, we don't really, we don't hang out.

[B]

No.

[A]

If you both could go back. This is from Meredith Doyle at To be Named For. Now, if you could go back to the beginning of BACKPACKER radio, what advice would you give to yourselves? What would you do differently? And where does Chaunce see herself after Co host of BACKPACKER Radio. Multiple questions there advice to ourselves. I guess going back previously, I would not record on three different mics on three different laptops. That was technically wrong.

[B]

Yeah. But then it gives the fun nostalgia of getting to listen to the early stuff where it sounds bad.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Some people love that.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

I don't know if I would do anything differently.

[A]

It'd be nice to make that workflow easier. It would have made the work tied to the podcast less cumbersome. That's a small thing.

[B]

Yeah. But at the end, like, we're sitting on a win. We've got 10 million downloads. That's not small by any means. And so to go back and change something, everything ended up working.

[A]

But if we were gonna do this over again and we had the knowledge that we had now, we would not repeat that.

[B]

I think we'd be exhausted if we knew everything we know now and we had to go back and you put me, us in my basement. We would be like, we're tired.

[A]

Yeah. No, yeah. It would be. It's a lot. The whole thing is a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know if there's been too many, like catastrophic mistakes. Honestly, I could probably think of something if you gave me more time to think on it. But the biggest mistakes would just be like the technical side of it because I think the interview or like format mistakes that we've made has made us stronger.

[B]

And we've also learned from, like, we can't get to where we are right now if we didn't have things that made us learn to do what we do now. So that's confusing.

[A]

This is from Frostyearthling. Love to hear you guys thoughts on smoking weed on hikes and for recovery. I'm not. I'm not a weed guy.

[B]

I still work for corporate America.

[A]

I got high on one Patreon episode. If you guys want to go back, it's still available.

[B]

We'll do an episode when I retire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Until then, Chauncey, he gets corporate Chaunce.

[A]

Chaunce has never smoked weed.

[B]

I don't know what it is.

[A]

Yeah. But I know weed is obviously very prevalent in the thru hiking community. It's just not my cup of tea. But I have no negative feelings on anyone that wants to partake whatsoever. I wish I liked weed. That's my biggest thing. I wish that I could smoke weed and feel the way that I think that most people feel when they smoke weed. They're just giggling, having a good time. I get anxious. I'm like, am I sitting Correctly is that person. Like every anxious thought that could exist enters my brain, so I've just stopped. This is from Lauren Planis. Lauren P. 21, longtime listener since 2018. Love seeing your friendship blossom throughout the. See, people think that we're. I think that's an important thing.

[B]

No, my mom has a photo of us framed in her office at work. I was like, mom, why is that here? So weird.

[A]

But I mean, just. Cause we don't hang out outside of the podcast.

[B]

I just mean I hate you.

[A]

No, no, no, no. But the point is, we spend enough time on the podcast that, like, there's a element of friendship that exists just on a work level.

[B]

Also, why don't we record three episodes in a week? We typically try to avoid that because then the segments aren't interesting enough because then we have nothing new to talk about. If we went and hung out outside of this, you'd miss all the good content.

[A]

Yeah, you have to experience some life between episodes to make the episodes good. And then she adds, no notes, just tears.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Couple more social media questions. This is from Griffin Lovelady, G Lovelady 2020. I've got a lot of questions. Number one, how dare you?

[B]

I know, sorry.

[A]

That ended up being the only question that I got at least. This is from James Washburn over under on how long before Chaunce announces she is pregnant.

[B]

As I crack another beer. Yeah, I could see why everyone would lead there with the thoughts, but I would just announce I was pregnant.

[A]

Hams will do that. Hams will do that.

[B]

I need a napkin. So fortunately, I'm wearing leather pants. It all just slides right off into this chair for whoever takes it from me, not only do you get the chair, but you get. Oh, beer.

[A]

Chancellor's trying to sterilize herself.

[B]

Weird that the first two cans didn't do that, though. It was only this one. Just trying to leave my mark on this chair for whoever takes it next. It's gonna smell like farts and beer. Yeah. No, not pregnant. Not, like, not open to it. It's like, definitely in the future for me, unless something catastrophic changes and I find out that I'm, like, not a suitable host or something. I don't know. That'll be depressing if it happens. But, you know, what's hard is objectively, I do like kids. I just don't really love other people's kids. And every time I'm like, I think I'm.

[A]

Whose kids do you like?

[B]

Well, so I think I would like my own. It's just like, whenever you're like, getting close to being like, yeah, let's talk about this. And then, like, something gross happens. You just, like, see a kid doing something gross or being loud or screaming, and you're just like, that's another month of birth control for me. So, yeah, it's not. It'll probably happen. I just don't know, like, how fast the woman body works or I haven't really actually been trying. So I think where we sit right now, in a totally honest way, is we're not trying, but we're not preventing. We're just, like, living life as it comes. And I don't think, think, like, at my age, at my geriatric age of 34, that it's as easy as when you're, like, 18. So I think unless I put some concerted effort into this, like, we're probably not gonna do anything with it. So I think I'd have to actually, like, try. That'll happen probably in North Carolina. Denver's just, like, it doesn't set the mood. You know, you look out your window and someone's completely folded over. And not because they're doing yoga. It's because they're just, like, having a fentanyl outbreak. And that's not, like, the most romance building. But I could see, when I get to the burbs, being more receptive to the effort it will take.

[A]

Well, it's a moving target. If you do it now, by the time you get to the white picket fence.

[B]

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm like, two days before period time now. I've been tracking. I've been. I got one of those apps that track because I didn't know, like, what the luteal phase. I don't, you know, like, I'm the worst person to have on girl stuff episodes because I don't know a woman's body. Just, like, who would have taught me, not school. That there's, like, a follicle phase. One of them. You're supposed to eat red meat. I don't know. I have no idea. I don't even. I, I, I've never changed a diaper. I am so ill equipped for this. So I got one of those apps so that I could at least learn what these phases are. And I am in the phase of not fertile. It says in all caps, not fertile. Hold on, let me show you. One second. Not fertile. And it syncs with my aura ring, which is not connected to my finger because I forgot to charge it last week. But then it gives you a nice calendar, and it tells you see, I'm going to get my period on the 21st, and then it'll tell you. I'm going to ovulate on June 6th. 6th. So, okay, when I was in here for that one episode and I said I was ovulating, I knew I was ovulating.

[A]

So if Trunks is not drinking at the next podcast.

[B]

Yeah, no, but that would mean I would have to actually be trying on the 6th.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's not like we're not living that kind of a.

[A]

You're not living the Vita Loco again, not in Denver. Yeah.

[B]

So basically, I have the tools, and I'm starting to understand the woman's body, and those are two important things. And it's just like, I. What do you want to do? Move across the country while pregnant? I'd rather not. And I also don't want to be pregnant in, like, the heat of summer. I've got. I made psychotic. I made a list of months and what nine months after those months mean in terms of, like, if you bang in March, you're having a December baby. I don't want a December baby. I don't want to combine presents with Christmas and birthday. I saw Charlie get hosed on that throughout life where it was like, he wants a bike. And it's like, all right, but it's your birthday and Christmas. And then I get March birthday, and it's like, enough time has passed where you renew the joy. I don't want to group like, it's a special day for you. I don't group them together. There's too much shit going on in December, So I don't know where it is, but I have a chart somewhere of months that I'm like, okay to try during and not okay during. And I think we've gone through a certain. A recent patch of months that would have led to winter babies. And as they say in the Sheep Detectives, no one likes winter sheep.

[A]

So, yeah, I've only had winter as

[B]

a winter sheep myself. December, surprisingly, mine's March, so I'm also winter, but.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No, not pregnant.

[A]

Yeah. People always ask, does it suck to have your birthday so close to Christmas? Mine's two days after Christmas.

[B]

But you're Jewish.

[A]

We celebrate Christmas.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I grew up culturally non Jewish, and, yeah, Christmas, even for my Jewish mom, was the bigger of the holidays. I think I celebrated one day of Hanukkah in my entire life.

[B]

Well, my friend Josh, his birthday. He grew up on our street growing up, and he. His birthday was Christmas Eve. Still is. And he is Jewish. And so it was like, oh, well, at least it's not Christmas Eve. But then it's also like, like, yeah, but none of my friends are free still.

[A]

See, I was gonna say the opposite. Especially in college. Like, the first couple years of college, all your friends are home from school and you can have a proper celebration then. Yeah, but, I mean, I've never had a June birthday, so I can't compare

[B]

the two, but, see, but then you get the summer months. You can't celebrate at school, and it's like everyone gets the class parties and you don't because you're a summer month. Yeah, that stinks, too.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't change it, but I also don't have the comparative notes, so I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, I don't know either. I'm just speculating. But basically, I've thought about it. I have thought about it, and that's about as far as I've gone.

[A]

Okay, these are back to Rachel questions. Each share one of your highest highs and lowest lows from the podcast. We mentioned not hitting the recording the record button for Akuna's episode. That was definitely low. I felt he was so sweet about it, but that was definitely a brain fart moment.

[B]

Yeah, it was bound to happen at some point, though.

[A]

We've done 360 of these, so. Yeah. One for every day of the year. Percentage wise. 99.5%. I don't know what they mean.

[B]

Right. Like, objectively, that goes back to that quote. It's like a Kobe thing about how many. How many shots Kobe makes, but then how many he also misses, where it's like the ratio of, like, what you get versus how many tries you gotta make.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyway, all that to say for as many tries as we've had is this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To only fuck it up once is huge.

[A]

We were bound to fuck up something. And we fucked up other things for sure.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, but that. That wouldn't hurt just because that sucks.

[B]

Well, yours is higher risk. I forget to hit record. And we put a cat photo.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, because it's video, but yeah,

[A]

the live Wisconsin live was a low, mostly just because the Ice Age trail alliance was very sweet to us and they were definitely disappointed to be.

[B]

They also encouraged heavy drinking.

[A]

No, I know they're not totally complicit in this, but are they work?

[B]

Yeah, but they. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But that doesn't make me feel any less shame. Sure. But at the same time, I think we learned things from that trip.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So it's hard to want to reverse something when you learn a valuable lesson from it, because that's called growth.

[A]

Yeah. I think the lows, we've done a good job about being pretty transparent about them. I don't know. Do you have any others that you can think of?

[B]

Lows? No, I don't think so. I think for any lows for me is like. Like a Mara leaving, you know, like, some, like. And it's also a happy. Right. Like, I guess the same thing that I'm doing flipped, where it's like. Like, we're happy that you're living your life and that, like, you're, you know, like, all the things that you're doing. And, like, that's very exciting and fun, but, like, it changes. It changes the vibe somewhere. And that. That. That's been. For me, the lows is like, you know, how often do we talk to Mara these days? Because it was a work relationship, but she was great. And so stuff like that, where it's like, you're in the midst of a transition in a role with someone. And even all the times Elise left, she can try, but she can't stay away. But it being like, ugh, we were in such a flow. It was so easy. Things are so nice. Like, now it's. It's gonna be different. Like, those are for me, that the lows where. Where you. We have had such good luck on having such competent and, like, strongly competent help with the roles that we've outsourced, that when you get someone who is that good at the work they do when they inevitably move on to something else, it's hard to not just be like, oh, shit, like, I'm gonna miss that just because they make your life so easy.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, conversely, for me, that is a high. It's just like, the people that we've been exposed to here is. I'm immensely grateful to the fucking incredible team that we've had here with Rachel, with Elise, Paulie, Mara, Leah. Now we've got Chris on the team, who's fucking awesome with video editing. Yeah. The whole operation is just. I feel very fortunate. Not only with backpacker radio, just the trek, just people who are talented, who care about the mission of what we're doing has been very rewarding for me.

[B]

I will say a high for me is be. By sitting in this chair. And I hate to say it like this, because I don't want to advertise my chair to anyone. You can all suck it. But by sitting in this chair, I get a privileged position of I can ask whatever the I want and it doesn't need to be on the show notes I can, if it comes in my head, I can ask it. And everyone that's listening to this, all they can do is listen, right? Like they can be hiking on trail and they can be screaming a question into their ear pods and, and just like really wanting to know something. And we, we've gotten that at times in the beginning where it was like I was. And I don't know if you remember this, but this only just popped into my head this second where in the beginning we would get some feedback where it was like, I wish you would have asked more about this or I wish you would have dug deeper on this because we weren't like maybe thinking about it in that way yet. And sometimes we'd have people write in being like, I was just hoping you'd ask this and you didn't. And the way I'm trying to say it is that like, because I'm in this seat, for good or for bad, I get to ask whatever my brain thinks. And so I get 360. However many of these people that come and sit in this chair next to us and they're people that in my own world excluded from this, I would never have the opportunity to sit down with and chat with one on one. And I'm asking the CEO of Whole Foods if he prefers vampires or werewolves in Twilight, because I can. Yeah, like that's spoiled. And not everyone gets to do that. And not a lot of people get to do that. And I think it's really, that's been a highlight for me is being able to talk to, not only talk to so many cool people that have done so many cool things from so many different walks of life that just like, are willing to share such intimate details and personal details and like sometimes sad and what, however many details about their lives. And I get to sit here in front of them and I have the power of dictating which way this conversation goes and which questions I'm asking next. And I can be so selfish or so not selfish in how I do it. It's just, it's something that you don't ever want to take for granted because it really is a. As great as it might be to listen to this, which I say with a grain of salt because you are listening to me talk in your ears and that makes me cringe. But I, I assume if you're listening, you think it's great to listen to. And as great as it must be to listen To. It's even greater to sit in this chair and be able to steer the conversation. That's a lot of fun.

[A]

Hear, hear. Yeah, it is. I wouldn't still be doing this if it wasn't still fun. That's the most operative thing is like it's. Every episode is rewarding. Even if there's just like sometimes a sliver of insight or just like a funny interaction. Just the. Yeah. The people that we get access to via this podcast. It really is a pretty privilege.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And it's just like being able to ask whatever you want. Like throwing someone off because you're asking them to marry, kill. Whether.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No. Like, I don't think my job would. Let me answer this. Like, that's funny.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

I don't know. I like that.

[A]

Yeah. I'm tempted to highlight some of my favorite guests, but that's an upcoming question. It's the next question, actually. Discuss a few of your all time favorite guests, especially those you didn't know ahead of time. So there's two different categories here. Those that you suspected would be fun guests. And then I. The. The question more directly is the ones that kind of caught us off guard. For me, the ones that caught me off guard. I think Gabe Vasquez. That was really good. That was one of those where. I think that was. Julia Sheehan recommended Gabe.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But like I knew next to nothing about Gabe before he came in. And that was one of those where just like three and a half, four hours absolutely fucking flies by. The entire time he was immortalized in our soundboard with. With a good quote. Something about the pct. I don't remember exactly what it was. We've learned that my soundboard is broken. Pretzel. To a certain extent. Like I've had interactions with Pretzel and like, I wasn't sure if that was going to translate.

[B]

Pretzel one was great.

[A]

Pretzel.

[B]

I think we only had him on once, just one time, but we've been talking about having him back on.

[A]

Yeah. No. Pretzel is a firecracker. Pretzel. If you're listening to this, anytime you pass through the Denver area, you better fucking show up here because you are a awesome Skurka. Again, that's one that shouldn't catch me off guard. It does not.

[B]

Justin True.

[A]

Justin True is a great one.

[B]

The problem is I wish I just had a list of all of them in front of my face.

[A]

Fancy Feast.

[B]

Fancy Feast was surprisingly great. Not because we didn't think she'd be great, but we Just, she was a girl that found his socks.

[A]

We didn't know shit about her.

[B]

We knew not a thing.

[A]

That was the biggest wild card. And now she's been on the podcast twice.

[B]

Yeah, that was one of those where it was just like we feel like we're just chatting with someone and. And it's funny. The girl stuffs.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Girl stuffs have always been funny. That's not a specific guess. That's just like the. The atmosphere. Vegas was a great one.

[A]

Vegas was very good. I know that you had more of an interaction with her, but Nancy East.

[B]

Oh, my God, I love Nancy. Yeah, she's on the at right now. If you guys like the Nancy east episode. She's vlogging her hike on YouTube and she's posting it on her Facebook and stuff. You should try to find her.

[A]

A few that I expected to be good. And were having Courtney Dhlwalter on the podcast. That was. That was a big honor, for sure. John Mackey was. I really enjoyed that one because I love the business side of things. Not to say that Chaunce didn't, obviously, but, like, he was as good as advertised.

[B]

You liked that one in the way that I liked Mills Kelly, where it was just like, I'm eating up this history stuff. And that's not necessarily, necessarily like your hyper fixation, but that doesn't mean you don't appreciate it.

[A]

Yeah. Mills is incredible. His. His ability to recall every fact by memory is just supernatural.

[B]

I sat here so jealous because I was like, I can't recall anything. And like, that's a fear. Around mile by mile is like, God forbid, like, I could do a presentation at trail days and like, give all this info I have, like. And, like, make it pretty and do all this stuff. And I. The. The part where I go is where it's like. And now we open it for questions and answers and someone asks the question. And purely because my recall is bad and not because I haven't properly researched, I can't answer it. And then I completely discredit myself. Is a fear. And so when he was answering those questions, I was like, I am so

[A]

in awe of you. He has a encyclopedic memory. It is crazy.

[B]

Tate. Yeah, Pyro.

[A]

Yeah, Pyro.

[B]

My old camper. That will never not be a funny episode. The fact that I just. I wish you never mentioned to him that you knew that he was posting blogs on the track about slowly becoming a vampire, because I would love to see where that could have gone.

[A]

Yeah, well, he wasn't going to Bring that up.

[B]

Was he not?

[A]

No, I think a reader pointed that a reader sends in an email being like, hey, by the way, I think this is happening.

[B]

So funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mike Cleland.

[A]

Yeah, sure.

[B]

I would. I would fly back here any day for another owl conversation with UFOs. We had him back to back with Justin. True.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The April. March 31 to April 7, 2025. That was a good back to back.

[A]

Yeah, obviously. Kevin Nealon in the fucking camper van.

[B]

The Pardon my take. Talk about full circle. I'm ripping off these segment ideas from part of my take because I was listening to them on the PCT and like trails and stuff. And they did Grit Week in a van with a license plate that I remembered from a photo. And we went to pick up our van and I saw the license plate and I was like, zach, this is part of my Tig's Grit Week van. And we looked it up. It is the same fucking van.

[A]

It had the same license plate.

[B]

It's not the same make and the same model. It is the same exact van that they took. I remember just sitting in at that moment being like, this is full circle.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

He was on a couple times for one of our live podcasts, but Dirt monger.

[B]

Dirt Monger. I was just about to say him.

[A]

He's hiked everything and he's just a philosopher of life. I mean, honestly, I could go on forever, but yeah, it's been honestly so fucking fun.

[B]

The thing that is hard is I'm scrolling through all the pages to like, look for like, just to like jog the memory. And I'm Only on page 9 out of 38 in the TRex logs. Scuba Steve. That was one of the first five episodes.

[A]

One of your buddies?

[B]

One of my buddies, but I thought he had some funny stories. He's the one that hiked the AT in a scuba suit because it was wet.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

let's see. Stu was the guy that hiked with his twin daughters. I thought he was endearing. Maybe we can move on to the next question as I scroll, but I'm just gonna keep saying things. Oh, you know who else was good? Clock double magic. The guy who, like, kept putting himself in really, really life threatening situations and had like, no phase by. It was just like, yeah, he's like

[A]

some of the craziest shit, dude.

[B]

Fucking path crafting in Alaska with no experience. Yeah, I think I actually asked them that episode, do you want to die?

[A]

We'd be remiss to not mention pony.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, Pony.

[B]

Pony. Was a great one.

[A]

He's long overdue.

[B]

Moose juice was a good one.

[A]

Yeah, there's. There. Honestly, there's way too many.

[B]

I'm on page 12 now. I'm going to keep going while we do other questions.

[A]

Yeah. Which. You have to limit this to 1. Which guest were you the most nervous to interview? Mine is easy. Kevin Nealon. Because I was starstruck. I'm a big SNL nut. I've seen him in all the Adam Sandler movies. I watched Weeds back in the day. Kevin Nealon was a face that I grew up with. I love his standup. That for me, that was like shooting for the moon. To even pitch him to be on the podcast. And when it was going to happen, like, I got nervous instantly by the.

[B]

I remember that. And I remember, like, I remember in the interview, like, you were acting a little tweaky.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because, like, you were just like, I could feel your nerves. I was like, this is so weird.

[A]

We also went to a coffee shop beforehand and I got like a triple espresso. So I was over caffeinated. The van itself was hot because the windows were facing south and we were

[B]

all packed in to make space.

[A]

I was sweating profusely, both nervous and just being fucking hot as hell. And like. Yeah. We're literally shoulder to shoulder that entire interview.

[B]

Oh, who's the guy with the hair suitcase?

[A]

Oh, Peter.

[B]

Peter loved that episode.

[A]

Yeah. He's been on a couple.

[B]

Yeah. I. For me, thankfully, the Kevin Nealon. I just like, I think I was still riding the high of none of this is real.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That just like, it didn't. And also you were so nervous that I was like, one of us is gonna have to not be nervous. For me, I think it was Pete McBride because he's a National Geographic photographer. And when I was in high school, like, I used to be like, I want to be a National Geographic photographer. So I followed like AMI Vitale, Pete McBride, like all these different names of Matt, Geo, Jimmy, what's his name? Yeah. And. And so I had these, like, just these names. Renan. I followed them all because I was like the. You know, I just want to see what they're doing. And so I had followed him since like high school. And that was one of those where I was like, I think he's in Boulder. Like, we could reach out to him. And it didn't necessarily have that much overlap with long distance hiking, but it was one of those where I was like, if he says yes, we gotta do this. And he showed up and he was just sitting in that chair, and I remember being like, this. This is freaking wild. So maybe that one. Just because that I had just known of him for so long. Up to it. Yeah, that's gonna be my answer for that one.

[A]

What were some of the I love my job moments you had while recording or traveling for the show? I think that's probably overlap with what we just said.

[B]

Yeah. Anytime I'm on a road trip, anytime I'm on a trail, and it's not on my dollar that, like, we went

[A]

to a Bills game, right. That was sponsored.

[B]

And I hate to bring it back to money because it's like, realistically, like, I could. If I want to go do the Trans Catalina Trail, I could go do the Trans Catalina Trail. But there's something novel about it being on someone else's dollar where it's just like. Like, I did. It brings you into the mindset of, like, I'm sorry, I'm being paid to do this. No, I'm not. No, no, I'm not that. And then you stand there and you're looking at this great view, and, like, we're a bottle of wine deep, and we're trying to commandeer a sailboat. Yeah, Right. And it's just like. And then we end up on the sailboat. And we're standing there on the sailboat, like, how the did we get here? Also, I'm being paid right now. Like, it's just insane. So for me, that was always very surreal, was when I'm on a trip outside of an office, I'm not in this room. I'm just, like. I'm somewhere outdoors. And there's just, like, one of those come to Jesus moments where you remember, like, I'm also technically on the clock, which is so strange. But, like. Yeah, I don't know. Those are always the ones where I'm like, it's. Hey, this is cool. I don't care who you are. This is cool.

[A]

Yeah. No, it is. There's times where, to the listener, it might seem like a dream job, and it actually is the road trips, especially because, like, we intentionally scheduled that to be as fun as possible.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Selfishly ended it.

[B]

But it's also, like, okay, like, how hard. Like, what's the hard part about balancing this with your 9 to 5? And it's like, not quitting my 9 to 5.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, because this. It's never gotten to the place where the early dreams of, like, maybe that could be everything, you know, It's. It's never. And granted a Different person on a different budget maybe. But I have these white picket fence dreams and I try to fully fund my Roth for my Roth ira. You know, like I stuff that takes it and puts it other places. But to even be at a point where you could consider like, wow, could this fund my lifestyle in a realistic thought process is like, no. Most people don't get past the dreaming part of that where they think like that would be so cool, but that would never happen. Like to actually to even get as far as the, is this realistic plate, maybe it never got to the. This is my full time thing. Like maybe that didn't happen. But for it to even get as close as weighing if it's realistic in a dirt baggy way is like that's, that's really cool.

[A]

Yeah. No, again, thank you to the listener because without you guys that part is not true.

[B]

And like, but, but also like without it, like we're not going to sit here and just talk to each other for eight years.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, like it's a necessary evil that has to happen. But it, it's really nice that it's possible that it does because that's still kind of crazy.

[A]

Yep. What will you miss most about interviewing together?

[B]

Well, this is a different question for both of us because you're still going to be interviewing. You're just not going to be interviewing with me. Yeah, I'm going to be on an island alone, away from all the interviews, looking back longingly on my time.

[A]

So I'll, so I'll start, I'll start. I think you answered it well earlier, is that we do have a really good unspoken communication about the flow of the interviews. And like that's, that's not something that's going to be able to be recreated because that, that came from years of mediocre interviews and just like feeling out the other person. And that's not something that you can just like, like recreate elsewhere. Yeah, that's a magic that requires a lot of time.

[B]

Yeah. I'm going to be in my garden. So I don't know how to answer this because I'm not going to be here. So I don't have an answer. Right. Because I'm not. That's how the interview is. Discuss. What will you miss? Yeah, what will you miss most about interviewing together? I'm not gonna be interviewing at all. Well, well, maybe on the, maybe on the Patreon here and there, but it's still not together and it's not in this context and I'm not in my chair. You know, is that a cop out answer?

[A]

Nuts. That's fair.

[B]

I just think that's like, that's. This is more of a you question. I think

[A]

if you had to give each other new trail names, what might they be?

[B]

Oh, what was it you called yourself the other day we tried to give you that name? Free Bleed. Remember when we named you Free Bleed the other day because you said if you got your period on trail, you wouldn't wear a tampon. You would just freebleed. That's. Your trail name is Free Bleed.

[A]

I'll take it. I have to go back to your most iconic story. I'll call you Pooh Hound.

[B]

Fine, fine.

[A]

Free Bleed and Poohound hitting a trail near you. Which guest or conversation totally changed your mind about a trail piece of gear? Hiking philosophy or something else? I don't know if anything has honestly come from the podcast itself. I feel like I pick up things about the trail while I'm on trail. That's where I'll give Jabba a lot of credit, is I feel like I've picked up small things from him more so than anyone else while hiking a specific thing. I'll have to think on it, but I'm sure it picked up a lot from him.

[B]

I've got my answer. Go ahead, Gummy Bear. His episode, another great guest. His episode has done more than anything else ever has to convince me not to hike the Arizona trail with snakes. I know I'm out on the Florida trail. That's just like a given.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But the Arizona trail, I was like, oh, PCT desert was great. Says girl who doesn't see Snake for 650 miles. Arizona Trail could also be great. It's 800 miles. It's a good length. It's a nice medium put on the list. And then we talked to him and he compared the two mile stretch of high. It was high grass that he had to go through where he could hear the rattles but he couldn't see them. And we compared it to that scene in Jurassic park where the velociraptors are in the tall grass. Ever since then, there has not been a serious part of my brain that is considered the Arizona Trail. And I don't know if I would.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he scared me out of it.

[A]

Yeah. That counts. I'm. That's a good example for sure. I'm. I got to put more thought into that for myself. But I'll say that the Bidet demonstration from Mr. Skerka has not changed my mind about my approach to that.

[B]

Yeah. There's no chance I will wipe my ass with my hand.

[A]

Yeah, I might skip a question or two here. Let's go to the podcast segments that lived and died. Just a retrospective. Looking back.

[B]

Oh, they're missing some horse facts. Great one.

[A]

Yeah. That can only live for so long. But that was fun while it lasted.

[B]

Which leads into one that she didn't live, which is Fox News.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Fox News was great news about foxes.

[A]

Yeah, Same concept, just different animal gross or not gross. I'd like to think that that's not permanently retired because we brought that back as recently. I want to say the Austin podcast,

[B]

It's like a thing of the week. It's like if we have an update.

[A]

Yeah. God, I probably left out so many good gross or not gross. Just having kids at home, the grossest shit happens all the time. Oh, here's one. So my boys, especially the twins, Leo, sometimes they just love pissing in the backyard and they'll just literally go to the edge of, like, the concrete patio step and just go piss. Sometimes they get lazy and they'll just piss on the concrete patio step itself. But the other day I went outside and I think it was Ollie goes, dad, I did it. I'm like, you did what? He goes, I did it. And I walked outside, and there was a human turn. He'd just taken a. Off the concrete patio step.

[B]

These are your children. If there's ever been a question. These are your children.

[A]

Yeah. So I grabbed one of Sierra's poop bags and picked up.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

A human with a plastic bag. That was funny.

[B]

That is so funny.

[A]

I don't even know if that qualifies as gross or not gross, but I have a thousand examples like that that have just left my memory bank. Bank. Point counterpoint in concept. That was a good one. That was just like a hotly debated thing. We could probably bring that up.

[B]

It was also like Cinnamon Court.

[A]

Yeah, similar. Cinnamon Court was more. God, we had some. We had a few good ones where people would, like, send in their hotly debated thing and we would weigh in on it as a jury. But, yeah, Point Counterpoint is a little bit more basic. Reddit brain buster. That was just us scrambling in the early days trying to find questions via Reddit and patent pending, that was.

[B]

That one's still around.

[A]

Yeah, we did that with Durston.

[B]

We also forgot pup dates. Pup Dates was a big one when Harper was more of a puppy. There's not as many other than she's still really cute. Someone did, actually. I Thought about this today. I almost did. Someone asked if they can have one more episode with Harper in studio. So I almost brought her today, but then I figured you probably haven't seen that message, so I should say it out loud first.

[A]

For me, it's never about me. It's about the rules of the building and people who would tattle on it when the podcast happened later. It's less of an issue.

[B]

Well, also, you can be like, ah, yeah, I told her off. She'll never be back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we've got that excuse in our corner this time. So at some point I. I will probably oblige to that. She's also so much calmer than she used to be. She's such a sweet, angelic little angel girl. I love her so much.

[A]

But that's nice. When dogs get past, past their puppy phase, they just kind of hang out.

[B]

What else do we do? There was more than just that. I feel like. One minute gear review is still in effect.

[A]

We still do one star trail reviews.

[B]

One star trail reviews.

[A]

That was priest confessions.

[B]

The priest confessions, Yep.

[A]

I'm sure there were others.

[B]

Yeah, they'll come to me, just not right now.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

Jeez.

[A]

Maybe we'll just end with, do we want to do. Oh, I guess we'll start with this. What are some of the remaining dream guests? We've never reached out. I'm including this mostly because Rachel has notes and I was like, including Rachel's notes. Let's throw some names into the ether and maybe a listener has a better connection than we've managed. Wes Larson from Tooth and Claw. That's one we've been working on for a long time.

[B]

Yeah. Rachel has a note in parentheses. Please email me back. Wes, please, from Rachel. So if anyone knows him, can you tell him to answer Rachel's emails? She's too sweet for this.

[A]

Yeah. One that's not on this list is we would obviously love to have Cheryl straight on the podcast. That's for sure. But that would be fucking amazing.

[B]

I would also like this Cameron girl on. Yeah, this cutesy girl on the pct. I love her.

[A]

I'm gonna reach out. I want to get it a little bit closer to PCT trail days because that's realistically when it could happen. Happen. But didn't want to ask about a festival happening in three months. Bill Bryson, I. I think that's a tough nut to crack from my understanding. But that would be fucking.

[B]

That would be so good. He's such a good writer. I don't care what you think about his AT hike. Objectively, he is a great writer and he's written so many things apart from the AT book that are just funny and dry witted humor. And he's. I think it's because he's spent so much time in the UK that he's got that like British sense of humor with his writing, which is just. And the other thing I really like about Bill Bryson is how he inserts facts into his writing. Like he'll. He's not just telling you, I went on a hike, he's taking like eight different side trails down. Like I hiked past this thing. And by the way, this thing, like he had the Notes from a Small island was one of his books about England. And he talked about like the wash basin in the sink in one of the places he was staying. And he went into the history of why they existed or whatever part of the hostel it was that he went into the history of. And it was just like, I never would have thought of this. And this is such a creative little way to keep my attention on the story without actually needing to have like anything like shocking happen in that scene. So I think he's a great writer. I would love to talk to him.

[A]

And we all owe him a debt of gratitude because he's undoubtedly made through hiking more popular. A Walk in the woods is the most popular through hiking book. I would imagine that that's.

[B]

You think more than wild.

[A]

That's a good question. I mean, there's been a lot more people that have hiked the AT than the pct. And I imagine in terms of books that have inspired people to hike the trail, that's. I don't know. I don't, I'm speculating. That could be wrong. But yeah, Bill Bryson is a legend. Cheryl Straight is also a legend. Nick Offerman, I feel like we got close to the stratosphere there.

[B]

I think we can still get closer.

[A]

Yeah. No, I want to make it happen. Nick Offerman would be fucking awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this last one on the list,

[B]

Matthew McConaughey, if any of these ones happen, and I am not like the first phone call made, I would like the world to riot because if Matthew McConaughey sits in this seat and I'm not in this seat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I had. And there was any chance in the realm of life that I could have sat two feet away from Matthew McConaughey, I will find you.

[A]

Can I say what you said when I mentioned there was a possibility that we could interview him?

[B]

Is it worse than I will find you? No, that's what I just said. Do you?

[A]

It depends. On?

[B]

Well, I don't know. What'd I say?

[A]

You said I would ruin the chair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think. Or maybe we'd have to throw the chair away after.

[B]

Yeah, something like that. You know what? I stand by that. You know what, Jabba? You want my chair, come by Aftermath does and you can have it.

[A]

Good stuff.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I don't want to be too long winded with this. Do we want to do advice? Maybe we'll save that for the live podcast. We can save the advice for the live podcast.

[B]

I have no idea what's in store for the live podcast. I am just a friend here.

[A]

Yeah. I don't even know how long this podcast has been because we're on the ninth file.

[B]

It's been less than three and a half hours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because we only have a max. It's been about 2 hours and 45 minutes.

[A]

Okay, we'll save it for the live podcast. And we've got. I think these are emails and Instagram comments and all the good stuff. This is from Sami Ellison. I'm depressed about this, to be honest. Cinnamon Connection, Cry Face, Paprika Palace. Come on, you can't do this, Trance. Who's going to fight Viking when he's on the episodes? Who's going to give Zach a hard time? I saw you posted your new house. I want to be happy for you. I am, actually. But you'll be happy. Very missed.

[B]

Here, here.

[A]

This is from Lynn G96. I'm in denial. I miss you when you miss a week. I'm so sad. But then thrilled to hear you may still be involved. Hopefully we'll be hearing North Carolina stories. This is from Revcph. Chaunce will be missed. Irreplaceable podcast host. Hope she has a million new adventures in North Carolina. Mountain a sea trail through hike.

[B]

Fun fact. I actually almost bought a house on the Mountain to Sea trail. Garrett is a more suburban boy than me, so he would not do as well on a rural road where it's just like a county road that has an offshoot with some houses and is not like a community. So I had to hold myself back on that one because I know in the heart of hearts that I have that it wouldn't be Garrett's perfect fit and we are a team. But there was a house that backed up on Fuller Lake to the MST where like, literally, like, you could have gone from our gate onto the trail. And I was like, this is a sign. It's my calling. I will have my hiker hostel. All my things will just continue to be. And that is it. And then I talked to Heidi more about the MST and how it's like a lot of road walks. And sneakily, we had that episode where that person was talking about the MST and I was like, oh, really? I heard it's a lot of road walks, trucks. Well, that's why, because I was. I was looking at this one house and I was like, but then I guess. I guess it's not as desirable of a trail to do in its full length. Basically what Heidi told me was that if there's ever a time I really consider through hiking the MST to talk to her, and she will talk me out of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And typically that's where I'd be like, haha, okay. And then do it anyway. But you said that to me about section hiking the Colorado Trail, and I took the HAHA approach and I, in retrospect, maybe should have listened. I also listened to you about not starting the ET in February, and I froze my balls off in March. So when she says that, and she's a trusted source, it makes me think maybe I wouldn't want to hike that in completion. But anyway, mst, I almost bought a house that was directly on top of it. And that would have been something.

[A]

You could do the mountains part.

[B]

Yeah, I could. Yeah. And segment 10 is what goes around, like, Fuller Lake, and that is apparently good. It's Eno Lake and Fuller. Or Eno river and Fuller Lake. I don't know, but. Or Falls Lake. Falls Lake. I'm so dumb. Whatever.

[A]

I don't know the geography at all.

[B]

I'll just kick myself about this.

[A]

Really? Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't want to do the road walking either. There's a lot of good hiking out your way where I don't think you have to walk on roads to do what you want to do.

[B]

No, I don't.

[A]

Yeah. And this last one is from Heidi. Yeah. Who's soon to be your new best friend. Sketching summits. So sad to see John sleeve backpack already, but selfishly, so excited to have her close to me.

[B]

I'm selfishly excited for that too. Also, Heidi's got a. If you don't know her art, sketching summits, it's fantastic. But if you do, or if you don't know her art, but you do know Jolly from Jolly Gear, they have a collab that they are doing pre orders for now, and by the time this goes out, it might be actually for sale. I think I just made my pre order, but she has a pattern that she made with one of her.

[A]

It looks really nice.

[B]

It's so good you brought it down. Yeah, I already ordered one. She's a wonderful artist and as someone who went to school for art and isn't that good at it? Like, when you see someone that's just naturally so skilled at it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just like you just can't help but look at them as awe.

[A]

Yeah. And I guess I'd be personally remiss to end an episode looking back at Backpacker Radio without giving more of a shout out to Jabba. I know that might be weird given the context of recent episodes, but personally, I'm very grateful. Like, this podcast was definitely benefited by having him. He was the first guest of the podcast. He's always been fucking just a ball of energy. And you don't even have to comment on this. I just want to say that I love Joppa very much and the podcast wouldn't be where it is today without him.

[B]

The podcast's not going anywhere. Neither is he.

[A]

Yeah, he's leaving. He'll be around. He'll be around. Good. I should have prepared for this part because this was. We saw this one coming, but I didn't. This is the peak performance question presented by TopoAthletic. Use code Trek15Topo for 15% off your pair of [e-mail] top performance enhancing or backpacking hack.

[B]

Gosh, I've given so many. Yeah, there's no shame in hiding some hot hands in your back if you know you're coming up to a cold night. No one needs to know. Even if. If you're still in the phase of your hike where everyone's concerned about base weight and asking about it, don't mention it. Toss one or two hot hands in your pack if you're coming up to a cold night on an upcoming stretch and shake them up before bed and put them wherever they need to go to make you warm and carry them out. They, in the grand scheme of things, don't weigh that much. And it can feel like a little bit of a weak move in the moment when it's like, I've been out here for the out how long and I need manufactured heat. Like, you don't need it. Let's not say we need it. We don't. But if you have it, it sometimes is really nice. And I think it's, it's. It's mental blocks that get in the way of that more than anything else. But if you are in a town at the checkout and you see that they are for sale and you are in cold conditions or at cold nighttime conditions, just pick one up. Who cares?

[A]

Cosign on that. I don't know if I think it was Jess brought some on the San Diego Trans County Trail and I was the third in line to use them after we started a very cold morning hike. Like the cactus was frosting and to even get it after two other people had had access to it was definitely a game changer. I was wearing every single article of clothing with me and stuffed one of them in my hand pocket and was very happy to have it.

[B]

Yeah, it's like when we talk about like giving candy to your inner kid in terms of luring yourself to the top of a hike mountain with a lollipop or some candy or whatever you got to do to get yourself the top. Same type of mentality. Just give yourself a little hand warmer for the morning that's going to be cold and if you don't need it, great. Keep it at the bottom of your pack with your oatmeal packet that you've never used and hold onto it for a cold day and you'll be the mvp.

[A]

Yep, I'm going to go with something that is probably repetitive with the most recent episode with Freeborn, but I have no issue getting in shape for a backpacking trip where I'm intimidated by the backpacking trip before we take off. But the thing that I think is most important for me is just to keep some base level of fitness, especially for cardio. Like I'm pretty good at lifting weights year round, but like like finding motivation to go on the stair stepper for 45 minutes on a random Tuesday where you don't have a backpacking trip in sight. Sometimes it's hard to get yourself up for that. Just know that you're never too far away from your next backpacking trip, and letting your fitness baseline floor drop too low just makes it so much harder to get back to that baseline, especially as you get older. Just maintain some level of fitness. Not only it's just essential for your health at large, but the next time that you actually do have a backpacking trip, you're going to be so grateful that you're not starting from zero or from scratch. Just find a day or two per week to squeeze in some Zone two cardio. Zone two is easy. You can throw something on Netflix, you can do it early in the morning and it's not too stressful you can do it late at night before you go to bed. It's not too stressful. You can do it while you do the things that you would do on a couch otherwise. But yeah, just maintain some base level of fitness, even if your next backpacking trip is. Is six to nine months away or even longer than that. Fine.

[B]

Here you open mind. I was. I was gauging how much time we have left on our memory cards versus how much time we have left in the segments, and I think we're good. For me to crack open another. What does that do?

[A]

Nope, not too bad.

[B]

Shut up. Is that a hack? You just do a trick.

[A]

I don't know where I. Where did I see that?

[B]

I thought you were trying to shake it up more. I was like, this is, like, on camera and rude.

[A]

No, no, no. So I don't know if this is a real thing, but I picked that up on Better Call Saul. This could be totally made up. But there were. There was something about, like, the centrifugal force of rotating the can before you open it. Helps to get rid of the carbonation in that context of the show. It was about a soda.

[B]

I like. For a moment I was like, he's trying to shake it up for me. And then I was like, he's opening it next to his computer. He wouldn't do that.

[A]

Does rotating a can it work? Opening stop leaks also.

[B]

I gotta find my chance. My chaunce

[A]

didn't do anything.

[B]

Doesn't do anything.

[A]

According to the Internet.

[B]

I don't know. We have two cans that say otherwise.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What are these called? Cup holders.

[A]

The coasters.

[B]

Coasters. I gotta find my chaunce coaster. I can't leave that with. With you.

[A]

Yeah, I'm. I'm on a guest right now, so I. Someone's been breaking in.

[B]

Ch Is coming with me. I. I refuse.

[A]

Right there, right behind you.

[B]

Where am I? Oh, you're not coming with me today. But when I leave here, you're coming with me.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Obviously we get to do the. Do you think we'll get to do, like, how they do in court, where the couple sits there and divides the beanie babies for all of our gifts?

[A]

I'm trying to think. Most of our gifts are consumables, but you can have anything that you want.

[B]

I'll take the company podcast is moving to North Carolina. Yeah. No, this isn't a think about it now question. Yeah, I don't even know what gifts I would want. I just want to feel some power.

[A]

Yeah, you've got power. I'M going to do a new file because you have a bonus segment. Okay, the Trek propaganda that I want to feature today. This one actually came out a couple of hours before the podcast started, so as its tradition, I did not have a chance to read it, but I saw this one was already making a big splash on the social media for obvious reasons. Once I say the title of it Roundup is Being Sprayed in National Forest, here's what PCT hikers should know.

[B]

This is not what's on the show notes.

[A]

No, this is one that I just pulled. I think this is gonna be news for people. So this one, originally saw on Mother Jones by the author Nate Halverson, found that the US Forest Service has been spraying significantly more glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, across California's national forests, often to suppress broadleaf regrowth after wildfire fires and logging so commercial conifers can take over. That matters for us because the PCT cut cuts through 15 national forests in California alone and the herbicide can persist in soil for anywhere from a few days to over six months. The WHO's cancer research arm classifies glyphate as a probable human carcinogen, while the EPA still maintains it safe, though Halvorson points out that some of the industry funded studies underpinning the EPA's position have been called into question, including one that was recently retracted. The Forest Service says it posts signs at access points to treatment areas and the PCTA is reviewing NEPA documents to assess potential impacts on hikers and the water sources they rely on. Something to keep an eye on. So yeah, if you're pulling water from these sections, I mean, you can look at it from the standpoint of a hiker and how that impacts your direct experience or just more broadly speaking, how badly are we up our planet by spraying these chemicals that have questionable ingredients that some agencies, well respected agencies, are calling carcinogens? So not a fun one, but a necessary one for the world of backpackers, especially if you're out in the pct. The link to that one is in the show notes. I assume this question of the day is yours?

[B]

No, I thought it would be yours. Okay, I would never ask.

[A]

Yeah, I know your answer. Why would you rather give up sauces or kissing?

[B]

Which one do you think I would say?

[A]

Kissing?

[B]

No, I'm gonna give up sauces.

[A]

You're a wet food person, but a lover at heart.

[B]

Okay, I. Yes, I am a wet food person and I love sauce on all my foods. Love a wet food, but I also like Feed off of affection. And I think if I were to lose all kisses, Maybe that's an easier answer when you're married because you're no longer, like, looking for the person so, like, you could kiss less. Yeah, I'm trying to think about this objectively. Now that I've found the person, could I give up versus when you're looking for the person, you can't give up the kisses.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't think I could give them up. Still. I think I. No, I think I would start to feel unloved and sad. And so I would rather just be unsatisfied with my food. I'd probably eat less of it and get thin.

[A]

You know what's sad is I would be more upset giving up kissing my boys. Because with Jenna, I can give her the best hugs or we can have sex or oral sex. There's a lot of ways to show up.

[B]

Okay, come on. See yourself.

[A]

I'm just saying that is kissing. No, no, no.

[B]

Oral sex. You're kissing with your mouth.

[A]

That's not kissing.

[B]

Kissing something.

[A]

Listen, if you said that you gave someone a kiss and then you meant you gave them a blow job, people would be confused.

[B]

If I said I kissed someone on their penis, I think they would think I give him a blow.

[A]

Well, you're not like, smooching it. It's a different. It's a different act altogether. If you are, I'll give you a lesson.

[B]

I didn't even think about the children aspect to it. As a woman who has none, I've not considered not kissing Harper. It's an instant out. There's no way. There's no way. I couldn't look at that tiny little skull. I'd hold that little snooter in my face. And then not just.

[A]

It also raises the question of what are we calling sauces? Is like ketchup.

[B]

That's a sauce.

[A]

Mayo, mustard, like anything. That's a liquid condiment.

[B]

Is that a sauce? All sauces.

[A]

I give up kissing.

[B]

All sauces. I'm giving up sauces.

[A]

I'm giving up kisses.

[B]

He's so fit.

[A]

I would give my boys non stop hugs. Jenna will get different things.

[B]

Jenna's getting lots of oral sex.

[A]

No, Jenna will get a lot of sauce for sure. Okay, but I mean, I eat two to three times per day, sometimes once during a podcast. And sauces are involved with every meal. That's a big.

[B]

You know, it's gonna be hard with pasta because pasta sauce.

[A]

Pasta without sauce is impossible.

[B]

You give up butter noodles. Butter noodles.

[A]

Butter is the sauce. By this definition, butter's a butter. Butter.

[B]

It's not a sauce. It melts, but it is a solid.

[A]

Okay, then you can only have butter if it's still in its congealed form.

[B]

No, it starts off as a. Are you adding any sauce to a pasta that starts off as a hard solid and then melts as you eat it?

[A]

I think if we're calling mayonnaise a sauce, then butter has to.

[B]

Mayonnaise starts liquid. If you had a piece of mayonnaise come out that looked like a butter stick, you would not eat it. It.

[A]

Mayonnaise is gelatinous. I wouldn't call it a liquid exactly.

[B]

It's gelatinous. Butter is a stick.

[A]

Well, butter at a certain temperature is also liquid.

[B]

That Anything at a certain temperature is liquid. I am a liquid at a certain temperature, I guess. Am I a sauce?

[A]

Technically true. Maybe you are sauce.

[B]

Maybe I am a sauce. I think butter is a loophole, but, yeah. No, that would be very hard. All I'm going to say is I'm eating a lot of cereal and steak.

[A]

Is milk a sauce?

[B]

No, milk is not a sauce. Milk is a soup. Cereal is a soup. It could be a stew.

[A]

We gotta get the definitions of what constitutes sauce pretty.

[B]

A sauce. You know what it is. You're pushing your luck. A sauce is a sauce.

[A]

I just think if. I think butter and mayonnaise have to be in the same conversation.

[B]

No, because mayonnaise starts off. If you poured mayonnaise into a bowl, it would take the shape of a bowl. If you put a stick of butter into a bowl, it would be a stick of butter.

[A]

If you put it. Mayonnaise into a bowl, it's the shape of the spoon that you scoop it into. It's not going to just flatten out.

[B]

Yes, it will. No, it won't. Yes, it will.

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

Sure will.

[A]

Definitely not.

[B]

Sure will.

[A]

No, it'll maintain its shape to a certain extent. I mean, there's. You can't build a perfectly vertical tower with it.

[B]

But there's sometimes that I think about, like, are you just. With me? This is one of them. Mayonnaise will settle.

[A]

If I take out a scoop of mayonnaise and I put it down in something, it's going to maintain the shape minus the physics of me flicking it

[B]

onto the thing after time passes.

[A]

Yeah. If you take out a scoop of mayonnaise and just leave it on the spoon, it's going to stay on the spoon indefinitely.

[B]

Have you ever done the paper towel test? I don't know. What that is exactly, you see, you don't know mayonnaise. Paper towel test is in school, you take a spoon of mayonnaise and you put it on a paper towel and you look at it and it's fine and nothing happens. And then you leave it there and you observe it over the course of a week. Week. And the saturated fats start to expand and the grease bubble expands around it on the paper towels until soon the entire paper towel is just greased.

[A]

Yeah, because it's oil.

[B]

But it's a case in observing mayonnaise. And you have not spent a week observing mayonnaise, whereas I have spent a week observing mayonnaise. And mayonnaise will flatten with time.

[A]

I think if you take a spoon of butter and a spoon of mayonnaise and you just leave the spoons out, they're going to maintain their shape the same way.

[B]

I would argue that a butter at room temperature will get softer, but it will not unflare in the same way that the mayonnaise will.

[A]

No, we leave our butter out at room temperature. We leave our butter out.

[B]

You're not supposed to do that.

[A]

It's the European way.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. You leave it out at room temperature as the European way. In a butter urn that goes into a thing of water that blocks out

[A]

air, we have literally a butter tray that sits outside.

[B]

When you use the little butter thing that goes into the upside down water, the impression is that you're using butter daily, as in for like a daily toast. And you don't leave it out on the counter daily. If you're not using it daily, can

[A]

you leave butter out at room temperature? Yes, you can leave butter out on the counter. Because of its high fat and low moisture content, butter is hostile to bacterial growth and remains perfectly safe to eat at room temperature, stay soft and spreadable for about one to two weeks, provided this cup keeps a covered dish.

[B]

As someone who's been making their own butter with their KitchenAid and do you

[A]

disagree with the Internet?

[B]

I did a lot of research on how to store my butter.

[A]

Well, you got to research again that

[B]

when you use the butter urns, it's because you're using it daily and that it's not meant to be out of the fridge?

[A]

No, the Internet disagrees with you.

[B]

Wouldn't be the first time.

[A]

So, yeah, butter and mayonnaise are in the same department for sure.

[B]

There's a farmer here that can message us, but we need a. We need an American farmer. Because if we have a European farmer, Then they are of the mindset that eggs don't go in the fridge. And that is correct for them, but it's not correct for us. So we need someone learned in the American ways.

[A]

Any refined pure fat is shelf stable, basically. Definitely. The higher the fat percentage, the longer it tends to last. Heavy cream has about 9x. The fat content has whole milk. And heavy cream will last for much longer. That's another point. Heavy cream is just butter in a different state.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I've been making it.

[A]

Butter is 80% fat, so it will last for several months in the fridge easily. Will also last for several days at room temperature. No problem. Salted butter will last even longer than unsalted butter. Yeah, I think mayo and butter are in the same camp.

[B]

Okay, we can agree to disagree.

[A]

I mean, just facts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. We do have to improvise on the triple Crown here because unfortunately my soundboard appears to be broken.

[B]

That's fine. We can do ways to die. We could do.

[A]

Two ways to die.

[B]

Okay. Like, ways you would want to die.

[A]

The best ways to die. And obviously I should say the least bad ways to die.

[B]

Okay. I'll start very old in my sleep.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That's ideally how it happens.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, I think we have done this because I was about to say something that I feel like is repetition.

[B]

We could pivot to worst ways to die in a shark's jaws.

[A]

Okay, let's do that.

[B]

Okay. Worst ways to die. Worst ways to die. Burning alive. I do think if I was in the 1600s, I would be considered a witch and they would burn me.

[A]

And especially for your butter versus mayonnaise

[B]

take and for just like my inability

[A]

to shut the up and your red hair.

[B]

I would say something wrong. I would. I would just. I would say something wrong. I hate to lose. And so, yeah, I. I would get burned alive. And that. That would be very difficult and trying and uncomfortable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So burning alive.

[A]

That's a good one. I'm going to go with Grizzly attack.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the movie Grizzly man, the director listens to the audio track of the guy that ultimately. Spoiler alert. Dies getting eaten by a grizzly. And like, that's the one thing that he had to leave off the documentary because it was so graphic and upsetting that the clip from the documentary is just him listening to the audio track, being disturbed by it.

[B]

Does it make me fucked up that I want to see that? I want to see those things? Not in a joyous way. I'm not saying I want to see it because I don't excites me. I'm just, I have such a level of curiosity where like I like I stopped watching Shark Week cuz no one got eaten by sharks and like does that like I'm not a serial killer, I'm not a harmful person. But I like there's a part of me that's curious.

[A]

There is something I think innate in humans. Like the train wreck effect where like an accident happens and people like really want to see the wreckage, the rubber necking. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's not atypical for sure.

[B]

But that's a good one.

[A]

The grizzly next one I'm gonna go a little bit more general. I'm sure this has probably hit a lot of people, but just like slowly with cancer, that is really sad. We're just like you lose all your ability to survive and slowly stuff gets stripped away from you and you have to go through months of chemo and radiation. I mean it's nice that you get to say goodbye to your family but man, if I had to choose how to pass, I would want to go quickly and having it be drawn out like that. My heart goes out to anyone that has had to deal with that firsthand.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like granted we are doing a triple crown of ways to die. I feel like you just said a real way and granted being burned alive is a real way and as is a grizzly, but they're just so less, less common.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That like you can talk about them in a way where it's like, yeah, that suck. And it's not like a realistic option. Whereas that's very real. So that's kind of killed the mood.

[A]

It is a, it is a buzz kill for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just. I feel like that's a normal human fear.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Cancer is. Sucks cancer.

[B]

My next one is gonna be drowning. Something about like the waiting and the helplessness. Like imagine just like you're going underwater and you can see the surface and it's getting farther away because you're sinking because maybe you have a rock tied to you or something and it's just going further away and you can't get up to it and like you feel like you can't hold your breath anymore. And it's just like that acceptance of like I can't, I'm powerless in this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and then you just have to suffocate. That sucks.

[A]

Yeah. For sure. Although I have heard, heard, read. I don't know, like once you get to the actual drowning, like the anticipation of it.

[B]

Yes. It's quite euphoric.

[A]

It's, like, heard or peaceful. I don't even know what the correct terminology is, but.

[B]

But I've tried to hold my breath that long underwater. And I think there is a point of panic and, like, bad that comes before the piece.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't want the panic and bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just want the piece. Yeah. The next one's hard because I've got two. So one's going to have to be an honorable mention. But for the sake of all the drugs I take when I fly, I would be remiss to not say death by flying, like a plane crash. I just. I think I fear it too much to not mention it. Otherwise, if it's not my top four fears of how to go, why waste so much effort on it? But it goes back to the helplessness and the lack of control. So theme A psychiatrist could break apart for me. But, like, when there was that one of the pilot that flew into that mountain in Germany or wherever it was because he was suicidal or whatever had happened there, and everyone could see the mountain coming. Something about, like, seeing it coming or like, I envision oftentimes when I'm flying, like, the plane getting knocked by turbulence and then just spiraling down and just, like, it speeds up and you're going down and it's getting faster and there's no fixing it, and, like, all is lost and you're just in those few moments of waiting for the Final Impact that plagues me and keeps me up on flights and at night.

[A]

That's a good one.

[B]

I would rank it below my honorable mention, but my honorable mention is just so far from likely. That. And I just fixate on this one so much that I couldn't leave it off.

[A]

Give it in a second. My last one is kind of conversely to the trope that you see here. Like, if somebody dies while they're through hiking, like, at least they died doing something that they loved.

[B]

I hope no one ever says that about me.

[A]

If I died doing something where I was, like, talked into going to do, if I was climbing or something like that, and someone, like, egged me on to do it, and then I died doing something that I didn't feel passionate about, or like, mountain biking, where I'm just nervous the entire time doing something that it wasn't actually a passion of mine, but I felt like I was doing it to, like, prove my mettle or just, like, fit in, that'd be a bad one. I think I. I would be okay. I'd be better with, like, passing while through hiking, even if it was a grizzly attack. Because, like, I. I love being out in wilderness. But, like, if the climbing one, for example, I'm. My fear of heights is strong enough that if I was doing that to just, like, fit in with the group and then I fell off the rock and died. That's a boner move.

[B]

Yeah. I just. I hope that no one ever says I died doing something I loved, because the thing is, is that I don't love anything enough to die while doing it. And, like, be like, at least I died doing something. No, I'd rather be alive. And, like, if I died while hiking and they were like, oh, all she is, is hiking. That's all there is to her. She died doing something she loved, at least. Chances are. No, I died because I, like, was suffocating at a desk and needed to get outside to, like, refine my sanity. And this is, like, a means to an end, you know? Like, it's not like she wasn't living in absolute bliss amongst the wildflowers without a fear in her world, and she happened to perish, you know, amongst forest friends. No, wouldn't be like that. I just, like. I don't know. I think any of the. At least they died doing with it that, you know, like, I'm sure they'd rather be here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I would.

[A]

I mean, obviously I shouldn't say everyone, but I think most, like, normal, happy people don't want to die under any circumstance. But, like, I don't ever regret going on a backpacking trip. And if I got, like, struck by lightning and died in that circumstance, I wouldn't want to die. But if I was going to die.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, because I love backpacking. But you know what? Some of the worst ways to die can happen backpacking. I do not want to get mauled by a bear. I do not want to get mauled by a mountain lion. I don't want to get lost and starved. I don't want to die of dehydration or hypothermia. I don't want any of these things. Extreme cold, exposure, Any. Any of that. No, thank you. I don't want. I would like to die very old in my sleep and not know what happened. And I'd like to die first. I told this to Garrett, and I was very adamant about it. I said, I want. I. I will go first, and that's that.

[A]

And so you've got five extra years, and he's five years younger than you.

[B]

No, he's two years younger. But I knew I had a five year buffer to compensate for. So we date young, not. Not high in that regard. In terms of a five year buffer. No, because women live five years longer.

[A]

So I'm saying.

[B]

So he's two years younger, so it'll

[A]

be a seven year gap.

[B]

No, he's two years younger, so that's two years. That is extra. Yeah, it's bonus too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm working with a deficit of 3 right now, which is better than 5. But all I'm saying is all the ways I could die while hiking are some of the last ways I would want to die. And if I got mauled by a grizzly bear and some fucking schmuck on the Internet was like, well, at least she died doing what she loved. I'd be sitting up there mauled to death in heaven or in the pits of hell, being like, I actually would have really preferred other ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I just don't care how much I love something. I would have preferred other ways.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, the death itself is not good, but like the context around the

[B]

death, you're not there to hear it.

[A]

If I got struck by lightning, I wouldn't even be cognizant of it.

[B]

Well, that one. I'm not saying anti that, like if it's a. If it's a quick one and done.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Smite me almighty smiter.

[A]

Yeah. But I mean like, if I'm enjoying the day before as opposed to like climbing where I'm not enjoying it the entire time and then I died because I just made a bonehead mistake. To me, that just lands very differently.

[B]

I'll put a caveat for anything instant. Like if I'm doing something I love and someone just goes and flips the life switch on the back of my head and it turns off and I just. Yeah, fine. I don't even know what happened. Whatever. It's just like the waiting for it, the dread of it, the like, I'm, ah, the bear's got my leg and soon it's going to be in my torso.

[A]

Y.

[B]

You know, like, I don't need that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or want it or. Nor would I want people being like, she loved it. No, she didn't. She didn't want that.

[A]

I don't think anyone's saying that they love the death. I don't think that's like.

[B]

That's kind of what they said. At least it was doing what they loved. Like, okay. I don't know. I don't. That's a stupid phrase. I Hate it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My honorable mention is like meticulous torture. Like, think about Game of Thrones with. Who's the guy? Yeah, the. The guy with the sister. That's the sailors. And they.

[A]

He got his dick removed.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, what was his name? Ah,

[A]

Game of Thrones penis removed.

[B]

Yeah. What's his name?

[A]

Theon.

[B]

Theon Greyjoy. Yes, the Greyjoys. Theon Greyjoy, something like that. Where like, they come in and they peel all your fingernails back first, and then they peel all the skin and then, like, his. His banner. The Greyjoy banner, I believe, was the flayed man, if I'm correct. And it was a. It was a guy with his arms out and his legs out and he was flayed, and he had just been skinned alive. And then they did other things, and I'm like, can you imagine being skinned alive? And then they do other things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And see, you know, you just got to sit there and just let them pull off all your skin and fingernails and do whatever they do. And then. And this. This comes up a lot in the mile by mile research because, you know, back in the early exploration days, there were some fucking gruesome deaths. And some of this shit you read about, you're like, ooh, I would really not like that. And that, for me, it. I put it as an honorable mention because it's much less likely than I would, say, dying in a plane because someone would need a motive and a means of kidnapping and to not get caught and to then have me there.

[A]

And I mean, you could die in a plane without a motive.

[B]

I'm just saying, to capture and torture me and flay me, you would need, like, some sort of ill will against me, maybe. I don't know. I don't want to jinx it, you know, like, don't come for me just because. But I feel like that one is a little further of a stretch than like a miscellaneous plane crash.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I also would not very much enjoy being tortured alive.

[A]

I do want to move on from the subject because I think it is depressingly morbid, but I have to. For my one honorable mention, I'm going to do a callback to Wolf of Wall street, where they think their yacht is sinking and he makes Jonah Hill go to get the drugs. He's like, I'm not fucking dying sober. You go get those drugs. If I could die with drugs and a lot of drugs in my system

[B]

to kind of like, I would take every drug and every. Every single hr. Corporate thing I've said that is kosher up until this point. And I am a very good girl. Let the record state I would take every drug because I. My fear is the anticipation.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't want to anticipate, I don't want to wait for it. Just take me.

[A]

In a lot of ways, I think that's the most compassionate way that we let people pass is like, in a hospital, is we give them drugs to allow them to do that or even, like, thinking of our animals, like.

[B]

Like, that's like voluntary euthanasia.

[A]

Yeah. I would want to do it with. Yeah. To your point, just the cocktail of the most intense drugs were not. Not the uppers. The uppers would be bad.

[B]

I would want all the intense drugs. I would want them presented to me on, like, a Russian roulette tray where it may be like, I don't know. I don't know enough about drugs to know how this works. But picture, like, six needles on a Russian roulette tray and five of them are, like, really great drugs. And one of them is my euthanasia.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I would love that. Because by the time I have my third trip and I'm like, this is great, let's keep going. And then I euthanize myself. I don't even know. Yeah, what a wonderful way.

[A]

If I could have the option to, like, chug a full bottle of whiskey before whatever was gonna happen, that would be the preferred way to go.

[B]

I think I'm gonna have a conversation with Garrett about this because we do have that three year lag in the five year situation that we're working with. And I do think if I got to the point where it was like, like, she's suffering and it's inevitable and she's got, like, two weeks left. Like, granted, if she's got time, let's not. But if we're. If it's like, listen, she's going this week and she's suffering no matter what.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What can he inject in me when no one's looking that won't get him in jail?

[A]

Aren't there states where euthanasia is legal?

[B]

Yeah, but to choose it, then I'm waiting again, I'm not talking about that because I don't want to choose it and go to it and wait for it and anticipate it. That's the whole fear. My thought process is he could do me a solid and just, like, slip something into my tea one night. The States, where there's a dual one, too. There's one where you can go in with a partner and you can both Push together. But if you don't push the button, nothing happens.

[A]

Known as death with dignity. California. Colorado.

[B]

I think Washington, too.

[A]

Delaware. Hawaii. Illinois.

[B]

Maine.

[A]

Montana. New Jersey. New Mexico.

[B]

I think you need a good reason.

[A]

Oregon. Vermont.

[B]

Washington, D.C. i do think you need a good reason. I don't think you could just be like, I'm sick of this.

[A]

I would find a good doctor.

[B]

What? To get around the loophole. You can't just. You can't just be like, I'm done.

[A]

I have. I have a feeling.

[B]

So they make you find your own sources.

[A]

If. If you wield enough power, you could probably find a doctor who's willing to be compassionate.

[B]

Yeah. Or Garrett.

[A]

Or Garrett.

[B]

So that's my. That's. I've got to talk to him about that plan.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And this is a very old age type of plan where it's like, she's suffering and she's had a good life. This isn't like a tomorrow thing. I'm not at risk. We're fine. We're on a very regulated cocktail of meds that we've worked on for the past five months.

[A]

We should all be lucky enough to have the best. Just. Milk of the poppy to let us fade into the next realm.

[B]

And what a wonderful word. Like, milk of the poppy just sounds so nice. I would love some milk of the poppy.

[A]

Yep. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, you know, it's sweet. I can't believe you don't watch Game of Thrones. It comes up often.

[A]

I do.

[B]

You said you don't.

[A]

I watched every episode multiple times. I was the one that knew that. The dickless guy. What are you talking about?

[B]

I know, but we just had a conversation where you said. We talked about how Garrett didn't like dragons and you said you didn't like fantasy. I swear to God.

[A]

You said you didn't like it. I've said many times I don't like fantasy. And that Game of Thrones was my exception because someone.

[B]

I'm not thinking of you. Then someone recently said they don't watch it. No, it couldn't have been you.

[A]

I'm a proponent of Game of Thrones. We've talked. We've. We've done the Triple Crown of Villains, and Joffrey has been met to help.

[B]

I had to get Garrett to watch it because he was anti dragons and so he wouldn't watch it because he didn't like dragons. And I was like, garrett, that is. And I. And it wasn't you. Fine. Someone. I've had a very similar conversation recently where they're not into fantasy and they don't like dragons. And I'm like, can I explain to you how. Not the plot that is.

[A]

Yeah. So it. I. I could also be put off by the concept of dragons. I think what sucked me into Game of Thrones was all the nudity first. What.

[B]

What I watched with my mom.

[A]

That's tough.

[B]

We weren't even that close.

[A]

That's a tough one.

[B]

Boobs.

[A]

And a lot of boobs.

[B]

Everything.

[A]

Like unnecessary boobs too.

[B]

Even like the women licking women.

[A]

Yeah. What I want, men licking women.

[B]

Really doesn't matter who's licking who. Just a lot of licking happening in front of my mother.

[A]

Game of Thrones is excellent. Excellent. But what I want for the second watch through is someone needs to go through and edit down the series to remove all the boring episodes and even the slow parts. I just want the reals version of Game of Thrones because I want to watch it again, but I can't commit. I just remember there being so many episodes where it's so fucking slow. I've watched an hour long episode. And you're developing characters that aren't even essential to this plot.

[B]

You got to just rewatch it because the more you watch it, the more you pick up on subtleties. You miss the previous times. And as someone who rewatches Gilmore Girls every fall, when it becomes la la season, when it becomes snow, snow, snow season. I rewatch Game of Thrones. I've seen it about eight times. Every time you watch it, you pick up on one sentence more that you're like, oh yeah, crazy.

[A]

This is a seed for something else. I just. That's what I appreciate about Game of Thrones. I just feel like there's or not Game of Thrones Breaking Bad. There's less wasted plot time per capita.

[B]

Oh, I don't think. I don't. Couldn't convince me Game of Thrones had wasted plot time. You can convince me that the end. The writers got lazy because they went to Star wars and they were trying to wrap it up.

[A]

And the last seasons of Game of Thrones. Two seasons, I'll say.

[B]

But I. I would also say I watched the last two seasons from Trail because it was 17 and 19, because they skipped a year. And so to be in the middle of the woods, in the dark, in the middle of nowhere, with just nature sounds and nothing for miles. And to watch an episode of that on a phone with like a group in front of a shelter is. You can't match that mood. Especially an episode you've never seen before. Battle of The Bastards.

[A]

Battle of Bastards is great.

[B]

On a mountain peak.

[A]

So good.

[B]

In Washington, it was like. I don't think anyone could take my Game of Thrones viewing experience from me because of just. You couldn't have lined that. That up if you tried. And it was just so.

[A]

And was 19 the last season?

[B]

Yeah, they took it. No, they took a season off. So 18 was the season I did the Colorado Trail. They didn't do it that season, but 17. I think the thing that was also crazy was, like, on the pct, you never have cell reception. Really? That much on the northern half?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we would strategically plan our. Not. Not just the day, but the resupply stretch around which peak is our most. Like, before we leave town, which peak is our most likely peak to get cell reception Sunday night so we can sit around this phone and watch Game of Thrones. And Sunday night would come and you'd push to the peak of this peak. And there was one time where we didn't have cell reception and there was, like, another mountain to climb that was just like, not pct, but just like the mountain itself. Yeah, we went up it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because bonus miles don't count when you got that. But it was great. Oh, my God. So good.

[A]

Game of Thrones in his prime is untouchable. So good.

[B]

And House of Dragons is great. Night of the Seven Kingdoms has been great.

[A]

I never got into the you should spin offs.

[B]

They're great. And they build this. It's all the same story. And there's so many references. There's so many times in Game of Thrones where, like, Bran's in bed and the night nurse is like, have I told you this story? And it's the fucking guy in, you know, Night of the Seven Kings gems.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

A lot of plots. Oh, and the triple crown was brought to you by Onyx Backcountry.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Use code TREK70 to save 70 off a premium plan with Onyx Back country. That's it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mailbag.

[B]

Mailbag. Hello. Just found your podcast and I'm so excited to learn from you all. I listened. I'm listening to the nine tips for hiking the AT in 2026. I am writing a proposal to my work to request a paid sabbatical and sponsorship. Any tips to getting things like this approved from Tabitha? You just did a video on this. And by you, I mean Jess.

[A]

Well, the video is based off of an excellent article on the Trek. Do we feature this one as a Trek propaganda?

[B]

Maybe.

[A]

But I will give a shout out to this email because this is what prompted the article? So thank you to Tabitha for the idea. But yes, on April 21st we did paid sabbatical for backpacking. How to through hike without quitting your job. I posed that question verbatim on Instagram and got back a couple of excellent answers on that. So I highly encourage you to check out this article.

[B]

Sorry, I just swallowed down the wrong throat.

[A]

Getting a paid sabbatical is a difficult thing. I'll set that expectation is most companies are not gonna pay you, especially if you're gonna do a half year through hike. I think doing something like the JMT or the Colorado Trail is much more realistic. But even just to have the security of a job when you come back from a thru hike is a major score, which a lot of companies don't do. So I would highly encourage you to check out the article which we will link in the show. Notes. I'll make a note.

[B]

Quick tips.

[A]

Sure, go ahead.

[B]

Okay, quick tips. Make yourself as invaluable as possible before proposing it and make this a long game. So if you know you want to hike in X year and you're at this job and it is X amount of months slash whatever ahead of time, there's no harm in playing the game. Make yourself really valuable. Find things that no one wants to do and do them and do them with gusto and be excited about them and just make it something where it's just like, man, I can't imagine not having her here. Like if Rachel were to give us notice, we would die. And make yourself really invaluable. And then when you make your ask ask, there's more at stake. Also you can ask for unpaid leave. I did that for the JMT because I worked at a job that gave 14 days of PTO a year that you had to accrue and earn into. And the GMT was 21. It was never going to happen. And so I started planting the seed far earlier in my skip levels where it was like, hey, if next year I were to want to do this, would that even be feasible? And there's so low risk when you're that far out and you'll be like, hey, if next year you just spitball on ideas, they don't take it seriously, but then follow up and then your next skip level be like, yeah. So if next year I were to do this, like really, what would need to be in place before then? They'd be like, oh well, you need to have all your pto. And you'd be like, oh well, I only get two weeks so, like, it wouldn't really make sense, but, like, my gosh, it'd be so, like, terrible to have to leave just because of that minor discrepancy, see, you know, and just slowly make it more real. Plant the seed early as a joke. Not even as a joke, but in a way that has no constraints or seriousness to it, so that they are thinking about it, and then slowly rein it in. And then as you get closer, they can't say, well, you never told me because you've been joking about it with them for like a year, right? And then you start bringing up like, well, how do we make this work? Who do I need to reach out to? What can I do? What can you do to facilitate me? Now, this person has been working with you on this idea for a year, and you're asking them how to facilitate you. What are they going to do? Say no? And then you go to HR and you're like, hey, I've been talking to this person about this for a year and now they won't help me. That's weird, right? Like, not that you would do that because we're not weaponizing this stuff, but you could see from their perspective how the more you talk about it, the more real it makes it and the more people want to work with you. Needless to say, I went and did the jmt. They actually, I don't think, put me unpaid. I completely negotiated unpaid. I think it was actually easier for them to leave me on payroll. And so I think they did. And I never asked about it, but I think early, early and often. Early and often. Make it a joke, make it a gag, make it a little bit while taking on tasks that no one wants to do with gusto. Because you can't be annoying while you're helping someone with problems that they don't want to do themselves, right? You can only be annoying while not doing extra stuff. And then you're just annoying. So balance it where you're. You're. Oh, my God, I can't believe she's doing all this extra stuff. She's great. Da, da, da. And she's kind of fucking annoying about this idea. But I don't know who else would do this shit. So I've got to listen to her. That, that's my advice, is start early and often. Don't plant it as an absolute because you don't want to be like, hey, I'm doing this next year. What do you think? Because then they're like, well, then you're not going to be here, right? But it's like, hey, to fill my cup and feel fulfilled. Something like this could be great. I was thinking it would work over this time. What do you think? Think and then you're not giving them an ultimatum. So that's my two cents.

[A]

I mean I think in terms of career advice, making yourself invaluable is important in so many regards in terms of advancing up the career ladder. But especially for something like this where as someone that hires someone. Yeah. You can't let people go that are essential to what you do as a business and you are in full control of that. Take on tasks beyond your job description. Be the best and you'll have job security. Security no matter what.

[B]

I think you just said it though. I think that for someone like me, my job will never be my life. Sorry. If you're listening to this and you're my job, I just. We weren't built to work anyway. I think what you said was so key where it was the best way to move up in the career ladder is to take on extra work. Yeah, I don't want to move up in the career ladder.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I don't want to take on extra work. What I'm saying is sometimes also the best way to move down in the career ladder or stay the same is to take on extra work. Because the goal isn't what's best for the company, the goal is what's best for you. And if what's best for you is getting out on trail next year, you might have absolutely no frickin ambition of moving up in the company. And the classic adage would be take on more work to show your valuable so that you get moved up. But if that's not of interest of you, you're gonna tune that out. What I'm saying is you can still take on extra work without the goal being to move up in the company. It can be to mold the company to what you want it to be for you. And as long as what you're saying, you prove yourself invaluable, you're kind of leaving them up Schitt's creek without a paddle. If you, you know, if they say no and that's really the motive is just put them in a position where they can't say no to you.

[A]

Yeah. I mean this maybe is a bigger conversation of if you don't like your job and the idea of doing more of your work is probably a good of maybe just go to through hike. Because even if you don't come back to that job, you could land in Something happier. But I think even if you just are working 40 hours per week, I have been there myself and I have friends that probably I could say this about where they just fuck off for a good portion of their workday. Even with 40 hours per week, you could make yourself to be an excellent employee if you despise doing that for the company that you're working for. Again, probably a bigger conversation. I'll also give a plug to the Trek because we have three weeks of paid through hiking time as part of our handbook, which is even separate from the vacation. Yeah. Or nothing right now. But that's why when the jobs become available, you have to be subscribed to the Trek newsletter because that is a perk of working at the Trek. Yeah, but right now, not hiring full time, unfortunately.

[B]

When you are, let me know. Is it remote?

[A]

Yeah, I know I would. Trust me. I wish we had an infinite budget. We're bootstrapping it.

[B]

Where would you put me?

[A]

In the mail room?

[B]

Honestly. So fair. Mailbag.

[A]

Mailbag.

[B]

Speaking of, I am a fan. Nope. That's a five star review. Sorry. Hello. Just found your podcast and I am so excited to learn from you all. I'm listening to. We just read this. I just read this.

[A]

You're doing the mailbag. I'll do the five star review.

[B]

I thought I was segueing a five star review and then I was like, wait, no, we just did that five star review.

[A]

This is from yes, Carb or Scarb78. I'm a fan. I love listening to your podcast. I look forward to each episode and love listening. On my way home from work, I have learned tips and tricks for being on the trail. I live in San Diego and I'm a local hiker. But one day, hopefully to find myself doing the pct. Maybe when I retire. I really enjoyed this podcast. Thank you for making me laugh and drawing me in. By the way, the leech scene is in the movie Stand By Me. So apparently.

[B]

No, it's in the Great Panda.

[A]

There's escape. We went over this. Both are correct. There is a leech scene in Stand By Me. We went over this during the Great Panda Adventure.

[B]

Sorry. No, no, no. Because he can't just say, by the way, the leech scene was in this movie. This is a leech scene that we brought up and talked about. It is in what we referenced it being in. Which is the Great Panda Adventure, which is a wholesome, family oriented movie that everyone should watch. Wasn't Stand By Me. It could also be in Stand By Me.

[A]

It definitely is in Stand By Me,

[B]

but it wasn't the scene that we referenced.

[A]

We talked about this in a previous podcast. But there is a leech scene in Stand By Me where there's a leech attached to his penis and he has to pull it off.

[B]

No, I'm talking about the poaching movie.

[A]

But Stand By Me is also an excellent movie.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And I think we said this in the previous podcast, but that's a Rob Reiner movie. Rob Reiner movie. Rip rip. Thank you to today's title sponsor. That is Topo Athletic. These shoes are the shit. I have been rocking the pursuit twos exclusively on trail for are we going on a year and a half now?

[B]

I lost concept of time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. But they are amazing. I can't wait to check out the mountain racers. But if you like low to zero drop shoes with very durable uppers and aggressive Vibram or Vibram tread, Topos are just the best. They are taken over in the thru hiking world and they are taken over in this podcast and you can use our code Topo.

[B]

Wait, no, I was track 15 topo.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

Look at that recall.

[A]

Why do I have the wrong code? Okay, I don't know. Got two different show notes. Trek 15 topo to save 15% off your next pair of Topo athletics. They are genuinely awesome. If anything you want to add, no

[B]

news is good news. They they're not doing anything to me that would cause extra thought in my brain and so as long as that happens, they are still great. And I just like again I've said this before but it is a boring ad endorsement when I'm just like yeah, no updates like that's great. What, what for? But at the same time, when it comes to something like this, I do think that is my strongest selling point that I have, at least in my experience with them, is that the longer I go without anything notable to say, the longer you know that they are just performing the way they should be and nothing has happened where I would need to be like ah, I need a new pair. You know, like still on the first pair I tested for them. I'm still on the first pair I used when we started doing advertisements for them. I have no need for a new pair because I'm not about to go hike. It's 3,000mile long trail so I don't need to refresh my shoes right before it. I am doing recreational weekend hikes and walks with my dog and time in the park and for the wear and tear I'm putting on them. They. I, I don't know. Is it a year and a half? Is it two years? How long is it? I don't know. I. The shoes are absolutely fine and there is nothing to write home about them. And sometimes the most boring detail is the best detail because they could have frayed something or blown out something or tight something or worn down something and that would all be stuff to report. I have nothing to report. Which means that there, it's all quiet on the home front and things are just working the way they should. And that is literally all you can ask. Mask of a Shoe.

[A]

Yeah, they are a great sponsor, not only to this podcast, but just by the fact that, like, we genuinely use and love their products.

[B]

So I have no, like, I, again, shoes are something where, like, I, I really, really need a new pair before I will get one because I feel like immense wastefulness. Because for me, if I get a new pair of shoes, I'm not throwing the old pair out. I'm thinking, well, if there's something that I need to take them on, at least I have this pair of shoes. Then you end up with a pile of pairs of shoes. Shoes, you know, and so it's like, I don't want to replace any shoe before I need to because I'm gonna feel too much guilt to throw out the bad pair in case I have like a something I need to wear the bad pair on. I don't know what that would be. Maybe this is a personal block, but it's just like miss me with colorful advertising or any gimmicks or anything like that. If this is two years into wearing one pair of shoes and I have no desire to change, that's a in.

[A]

Yeah. Wide toe box, zero to low drop. Very good shred. Durable as. That's all the ingredients that you need for a good dragon.

[B]

She's happy.

[A]

Check them out. Also, thank you to Onyx Backcountry. Use our code Trek70 to save 70% off a premium plan with Onx Backcountry. Again, this is a really, really, really good and intuitive navigation app. I use it all the time. I love it.

[B]

Yeah, user friendly is the big takeaway for this. There's other ones that do similar things that are not user friendly and I close them out immediately because I just get overwhelmed. And Onyx, I have felt like it's been approachable. I felt, I've felt like I can understand it, that I can make sense of it, that it can do all the crazy things that some other ones can't. But not in a format that just like laughs at me at the door.

[A]

Yep. Super big thank you to the Bob Peoples award winners on Patreon. That is Alex and Misty with navigators crafting. Alex kindle, Andrew Austin McDaniel, Bill Jensen, Brad and Blair from 13 Adventures. Brent Mullins, aka Cruzy, Brian Allsop, Babels, Carl Lobsterhood, Christopher Marshburn, Clint Sittler, coach for Marion Outdoors. Eric Casper, Brian Ghost, Eric Hoffman, Ethan Harwell. Done. Jillian Daniels, Greg Knight, Greg Martin, Griffin Hay. Would you bring me a beer? Haley Buckingham Palace Jackson Storm trooper Jared not from Subway. Jason Kaiser. Jason Zach is a little donkey girl.

[B]

Snailer barely nowhere. Didn't say that last time.

[A]

Nice work. Luke Nas, Maddie in Arizona, Patrick C. And C. Randy Sutherland, Rebecca Brave heart. That was supposed to be mine and I didn't do it. And you filled in the gaps. That's teamwork right there.

[B]

We know each other.

[A]

Rural Juror, sawyer products, the St. Louis shaman, Timothy Hound and Tracy Trigger. Thanks to our guy Paulie at Oldman Murph's Coffee roasters. Go to ommcr.com get yourself some delicious beans. We love Paulie.

[B]

Yes, we do.

[A]

You can follow us on social at Backpacker Radio, on Instagram and TikTok and Threads backpacker radio or facebook.com backpacker radio. You can follow Trons.

[B]

You can find me on Instagram at Juliana underscore Chauncey on YouTube at Juliana Chauncey. And you can get my book Hiking from home, a long distance hiking guide for family and friends on Amazon.

[A]

Appalachian Trials and Pacific Crest Trials are my books. Chauncey and I will be very appreciative of a review. Also, check out the Trex YouTube. We're doing some fucking awesome shit with the YouTube nowadays. As of this release, I think we're four episodes deep on the Andrew Skurka series, which has been a big hit. No fucking shocker there. We're going to be doing more of these, so go to the TRex YouTube. Subscribe. Speaking of subscribing, subscribe and follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow Backpacker radio on YouTube.

[B]

Hi, Internet.

[A]

And that is it for the Zach and Tronce solo recap. Thank you so much for listening.

[B]

Bye forever. Bye. I'm a little confused.

[A]

Are you telling me that this photo

[B]

of Bruce Jenner is your resume?

[A]

Well, when I showed up this morning, I didn't have a formal resume on me, so I was sort of hoping the photograph of Mr. Jenner could. Could represent the standard of excellence I'm hoping that to bring to this position. I see.

[B]

And. And you're looking for a job as a substitute teacher?

[A]

Substitute janitor.

[B]

Look, I'll clean this building so good, you're not going to know what to do with yourself. You know what I mean?

[A]

And I'm not a proud man, you know, I'll do the jobs that the other guys don't want to do. I'll degrade myself.

[B]

I'll make a genuine ass out of myself. Yeah.

[A]

Hey, look, I'll swallow that eraser whole just to prove to you I know. No, please, please. I'll swallow it all.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

You don't have to do that.

[B]

But I'm.

[A]

I have to say, I don't think I've ever encountered someone who's so passionate about joining our custodial staff. The passion I have for the work that I do is extraordinary. It probably goes beyond Jenner.

[B]

Uhhuh.

[A]

And I'm serious. I'll eat that eraser hole. Oh, no, it's not. It's not. You don't need to eat the eraser to prove your point.

[B]

You have the job.

[A]

Are you serious? I love your attitude. It's fantastic. I'm not going to let you down. I mean, I'm going to start cleaning immediately. Immediately. But first, can I eat the erase?

[B]

I've been out walking so many miles

[A]

I've yet to go Never been one that's had to choose but every time I do I find I lose I guess I'm a loser Stomping ground for

[B]

the loving crowd

[A]

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[B]

I'm addicted.

[A]

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