Negotiating with Al-Qaeda, Drill Sergeant Secrets, and Healing from War on the AT with Stephen "Near Miss" Palazzo (BPR #357)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Backpacker Radio #357

Negotiating with Al-Qaeda, Drill Sergeant Secrets, and Healing from War on the AT with Stephen "Near Miss" Palazzo

Release Date: May 18, 2026
Hosts: Zach "Badger" Davis and Juliana "Chaunce" Chauncey
Guest: Stephen "Near Miss" Palazzo

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Episode Overview

In this rich and wide-ranging episode, Zach and Chaunce talk with Stephen "Near Miss" Palazzo—Army veteran, triple crowner, and peak bagger—about his 24-year military career, the extreme highs and lows of deployment, the healing power of thru-hiking, and his transition from wartime trauma to mountain medicine. This is one of Backpacker Radio’s deepest dives into the intersection of war, mental health, and adventure, featuring gripping stories from the frontlines, raw reflections on addiction and PTSD, and the trek that changed everything.
Content warning: Contains discussions of war, combat, death, PTSD, and alcohol abuse.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Stephen’s Military Background

• Joining & Motivation:
  • Failed at college, joined Army in 1999 out of a sense of civic duty. (“I majored in skiing and didn’t get really good grades.” – 16:06)
  • Expected one enlistment, but 9/11 changed everything. (“9/11 happened, I reenlisted, and then it just keeps going.” – 21:09)
• Deployment Timeline & Impact:
  • 2003: First wave ground war in Iraq: “Straight-up chaos... no infrastructure... wild west.” (33:47)
  • Afghanistan: Training Afghan National Army—felt meaningful. (34:57)
  • Iraq, again: Ran Compound 5 and 7—negotiated with top Al-Qaeda leaders.
    • Memorable Moment: “The number two guy of Al-Qaeda in Iraq…spoke perfect English, educated in Oxford, and argued with me for 45 minutes about why America is bad... if you’d just gone 45 minutes ago, you’d already be outta solitary.” (37:08)
  • Eastern Europe: Deployment during Russian aggression (“I wouldn’t call it a deployment because we could drink…it was basically living in Poland” – 38:58)
  • Syria: Occupying a failed state, complex geopolitics, first-hand view of the “clowns running the circus.” (43:43)
• Drill Sergeant Years:
  • Transformation of recruits, authority, and anger management.
    • “At that point, I was a really angry individual, so it was good to harness that.” (27:29)
  • Inside the gritty and often archaic culture: “This is how archaic the process was…Commander had to certify you [as gay] in 10 questions and call your parents.” (29:54)
  • //See Notable Quotes for his impromptu “drill sergeant voice”. (27:01)

War Stories & Reflections

• Moments of Humanity Within Chaos:
  • Sunrise and Arabic call to prayer in Iraq: “Stuck in that space, but not in that moment…transcendent.” (46:52)
• Combat Trauma:
  • Collecting body parts after an IED went off on the enemy, processing it with dark humor to preserve sanity. (47:18)
  • His own near-fatal IED incident: “Went back and looked at my vehicle…huge chunk out of the door. That could have been it.” (51:00)
• Post-Deployment Mental Health:
  • PTSD surfaced not on deployment but after reentry to “regular” life. (49:14)
  • “Didn’t process a lot of this stuff until I did a thru-hike.” (182:55)

Hiking as Healing

• Transition to Thru-Hiking/Post-Military:
  • Discovered Backpacker Radio while adrift before retirement—found resonance with “walking off the war.” (14:28)
• The Appalachian Trail & Beyond:
  • AT start Feb 2023, finished July; followed almost immediately by Colorado Trail, then mountaineering in Ecuador and international peaks. (54:51)
  • “Post-trail depression hit a hundred times harder than anything I experienced in war.” (53:07)
  • Transformation:
    • “I was drinking a bottle a day…I just kind of stopped. It changed for me.” (58:27–58:59)
    • “Thru-hiking was the first thing that made me want to put down the bottle.” (59:12)

Mental Health & Recovery Insights

• PTSD and Self-Medication:
  • Experiences with self-medicating via alcohol: “Just life, PTSD, stress, the job…you’re self-medicating at that point.” (56:54)
  • Honesty in military medical surveys brought punitive advice: told not to reveal his issues or alcohol use. (55:41)
• Why the Trail Worked:
  • “Take the earbuds out and just zen... Go into those places you might not want to think about. Be intentional about it.” (61:17)
  • “The trail was what was medicating me. You come upon a vista, sit down and contemplate life...it helped and still helps.” (59:17)
  • Moving from thru-hiking to mountaineering for “flow state” and mental stillness.

Peak Bagging & Seven Summits

• Colorado 14ers:
  • All 58 peaks, plus winter summits; favorite: Pyramid Peak—“It looks like Egyptians brought blocks up there.” (227:20)
  • Completed Massive after three winter attempts. (247:03)
• International Expeditions:
  • Aconcagua, Denali (summit rate only 30%), Kilimanjaro.
  • “Denali is just a special place…I’d go back in a second.” (158:21)
• Advice for Aspiring Mountaineers:
  • Start with Ecuador, high enough but not as dangerous; build skills progressively (175:57)
  • “Start with what you’re comfortable with, then slowly tick up the confidence level. Go out and try it.” (177:19)
• Philosophy on Risk:
  • “Anyone, at any given point, can die. I’m not really afraid of dying.” (172:09)
  • Confidence comes from experience—but don’t confuse with cockiness. (173:17)
• Saving for Big Goals:
  • Military pension helps, but for others: “Little gains become big gains. Skip a coffee, set a small weekly transfer.” (107:22)

Trail Community & Culture

• Veteran and hiker community overlap; AT “vibe check”: “Everyone out there is searching. There’s a camaraderie like in the military.” (84:50)
• On tramilies and solo travel; easing into new connections post-military.
• On “hiker entitlement” and self-awareness—not to let special treatment or hardship breed bad behavior toward towns, hostels, or the hiking community. (213:09)

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Memorable Quotes & Segments

• Drill Sergeant Mode:
  • (27:01) "Get out of my face! What are you doing? Push, private!" – Near Miss (drill sergeant voice)
• On Post-Trail Depression:
  • (53:08) “Post-trail depression hit me harder than post-war.”
• Negotiating with Al-Qaeda:
  • (37:08) “The CIA came in—‘he’s right there’…This guy spoke perfect English, educated in Oxford. He argued with me for 45 minutes about why America is bad... If you’d just gone [to solitary] 45 minutes ago, you’d be done.”
• On Healing:
  • (61:17) “Take the earbuds out, just zen. Go into those places you might not want to think about. Be intentional about it.”
• Processing War & Life:
  • (185:19) “I feel a deep sense of responsibility to live my life to the fullest for people who…haven’t truly come home. That’s how I should live my life.”
• Perspective Shift:
  • (172:09) “Anyone can die, any day. Crossing the street, in a car... I’m not really afraid.”
• Most Magical Trail Moment:
  • (92:04) “Massive bull moose in the Wind River Range, locked eyes at sunrise… He looked at me, then just went back to watching the sunrise. I sat for 10 minutes—he’s finding the same beauty as I am.”

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Important Timestamps

• Interview Start: 14:28
• Military Career Overview: 15:54–45:00
• Negotiating with Al-Qaeda: 37:08
• Memorable Combat Moments: 45:58–51:17
• Substance Abuse & Recovery: 55:41–59:17
• Healing on Trail + Mental Health: 59:53–64:38
• Peak Bagging, 14ers & Seven Summits: 130:04 (peak bagging), 158:21–160:01 (summit rankings)
• Risk, Mindset & Advice: 172:09–173:17
• Favorite Magical Mountain Moment: 92:04
• Trail Community, Post-Military Connection: 84:30–87:37

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Other Noteworthy Segments

• Seven Summits/Mountain Peaks Triple Crown Draft (226:44)
• One Minute Gear Review: North Face Summit Series Sun Hoodie (257:53)
• Discussion on Trail Entitlement: 211:20
• Mailbag: Listener feedback on San Diego Trans County Trail (266:07)

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

Stephen “Near Miss” shares with raw, reflective candor, moving from dark humor to deep humility as he turns some of the world’s harshest experiences into lessons for healing. The tone is frank but compassionate, both among the hosts and their guest: nothing is off-limits, but nothing is sensationalized. For hikers or veterans looking for inspiration—or anyone torn between trauma and transformation—this episode is a powerful affirmation that, often, the trail can be the medicine no battlefield or therapist can provide.

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Listener Note:
The episode is candid, sometimes graphic, and often cathartic—equal parts therapy session, war memoir, and classic hiker banter.

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Memorable Sign-Off:
“Viva la Chaunce!” (276:05) — In honor of co-host Chaunce’s impending departure, listeners are invited to flood the comments with this battle cry.

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For More from Stephen:
Instagram: @Paul_Bunyan_214
Facebook: Stephen Palazzo

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Closing Remark from Near Miss:
“I feel a deep sense of responsibility to live my life to the fullest for people that I know that have never truly come home.”

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Backpacker Radio: Trail honesty you can’t fake; stories you’ll never forget.

Transcript

[A]

In today's episode of Backpacker Radio Pacifica, the trek brought to you by Element. We are joined by Steven Palazzo, AKA Near Miss, an Army veteran through hiker and peak bagger who has completed the at CDT, AZT and Colorado Trail, summited all 58 of Colorado's 14ers and knocked out three of the seven summits. This one runs the gamut. Steven walks us through 24 years of military service, from crossing into Iraq on the first wave of the ground war in 20002003 to negotiating with the number two guy in Al Qaeda over a solitary confinement dispute to a very geopolitically tangled deployment in Syria. He also shares how thru hiking became the thing that finally got him to put down the bottle, why post trail depression hit harder than anything he experienced in war and a magical moment in the Wind River Range where he locked eyes with a bull moose. And as Tron comes to grip with her impending move, she has made it her mission to to make each podcast an ultramarathon. This one is sure to give you enough content to get through the week or year. Also warning, this episode contains discussions of war, combat, death, PTSD and alcohol abuse. We wrap the show with an article about thru hiker entitlement. We discuss why a Sawyer filter lasts a lifetime, but you're supposed to swap a Brita filter every few months, the Triple Crown of Mountain Peaks, a new Sun Hoodie review series by me, and a detailed mailbag about a listener's experience on the San Diego Trans County Trail and Chon's schedules an impromptu summit of Mount Rainier. But first, if you've listened to this podcast for any period of time, I've sounded like a broken record about the importance of supplementing with electrolytes while backpacking. During my first hike, I landed in the hospital with a condition called hyponatremia, which is just a fancy term for low blood sodium levels. Symptoms included intense headaches, dizziness and generally feeling like a bag of Richards. This happened as a result of heavy sweating over consuming water and under consuming electrolytes. A couple of saline IVs and a hefty medical bill later and my energy was magically restored. Electrolytes and backpacking go together like peanut butter and jelly, which is why I'm thrilled to have Element as today's sponsor. Element is a science backed zero sugar electrolyte brand with enough sodium, potassium and magnesium to help you feel and perform your best on trail and beyond. No sugar, no artificial flavors, no dodgy ingredients, just the stuff your body actually needs and now they've got something new. 12 ounces sparkling waters the same great electrolytes in a slim can built for the in between moments, a long drive to the trailhead town days, or just sitting at your desk trying to not feel like a zombie. There are four flavors Pineapple salt, lemonade salt, black cherry salt and orange salt. The they're salty, bright and crisp. Honestly, a great swap for anyone trying to ditch their sodas without giving up something they actually enjoy drinking. Free Stuff Alert BACKPACKER Radio listeners can score a free sample pack that's eight stick packs across four flavors with any purchase by going to drinklmnt.com trek Again, that's drink element lmnt.com trek no coupon code necessary, but you do have to use the URL and and it's only good for a limited time. If you've listened to BACKPACKER Radio for any amount of time, you know that Chance and I are big fans of Gosmer gear, and today I want to talk about their newest pole, the FT3 trekking poles. These are ideal for fast packing and trail running, where the terrain changes fast and you need to go from pocket to pole and back again in seconds. No more choosing between carrying poles you don't need and scrambling for poles you don't you can't reach. Stash them, grab them.

[B]

Go.

[A]

At just 6.2 ounces per pole, carbon fiber shafts and a custom molded EVA foam grip keep every swing light. They're a variation of the bestselling LT5s, dialed in specifically for when speed is the priority. If you're putting in big miles and the trail keeps throwing different terrain at you, the FT3s are your go to discount time. Backpacker Radio listeners can score a 20 discount off these polls or the popular LT5s by using code BACKPACKER RADIO at [e-mail] Again, that's code BACKPACKER RADIO all one [e-mail] for $20 off your new favorite set of UL tracking poles. This deal is only good for a limited time, so do not wait.

[C]

I've been out walking slow Many miles

[A]

I've yet to go. Welcome to BACKPACKER Radio, presented with the trek brought to you by Element. I am your co host, Zach Badger Davis. Sitting to my left is right.

[C]

Left I am on your right.

[A]

Yeah, to my right. I don't know how I got the direction wrong. That's a new one. I think we're processing and drinking whiskey.

[C]

Yes, this is called processing. I am Juliana Chauncey AKA Chaunce. Hi.

[A]

Hot start. Yes. Before we get to today's interview, got a handful of reminders for you here. Our YouTube viewing audience might notice that Chaunce and I are matching right now.

[C]

Oh, yes. Look at this. Do you want to do a little twirl for the camera?

[A]

Should we both twirl?

[C]

Okay. Ooh, look at our backs. Tell them what it says.

[A]

I can't send that ear mic right now.

[C]

I can tell. Oh, yeah. Relay it back. Tell me what it says.

[A]

Trying to get it so they can

[C]

actually see a little bit.

[A]

These are backpacker radios. Brand new T shirts which are incredibly awesome. It's backpacker radio. Can you dig it with a UL trowel as the emblem. It's just good stuff. All the cool kids are wearing it. It's the shirt of the summer. As some are saying.

[C]

Who doesn't want to walk around with a shit shovel on your shirt?

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're on the inside crowd if you're wearing a shit shovel on your shirt. Yeah. On your shirt.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But yeah, we realized it's been a hot minute since we've done some Backpacker Radio merch. We were long overdue and here it is.

[C]

Yep. I like it. I like the color. I got an extra big one for this one so that I can have it as a sleep shirt.

[A]

Yeah. So ideally you'll be slightly more tan than me if you're going to wear it because I do kind of look camouflage in my shirt right now. But that tends to happen with light colored shirts anyways. But that being said, still very nice shirt.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Well done. To Chris, our designer does awesome stuff. But the link to get one of these will be available in the show notes. This is a time bound thing. We're just going to run one campaign for it. I think it'll be open for three weeks. So provided you're hearing this episode within three weeks of its release, you can get yourself one of these and they're awesome. And you should. I think we've got T shirts tanks. I think there's a crew neck in there.

[C]

I think there might have been a crew neck.

[A]

Yeah. So you got a few options. You don't have to do T shirts. You're not a T shirt person. But the T shirt was Maya Johnson's first choice. Next is. Now that it's out in the open, this is the second episode that we can talk about it. We have a live podcast happening here in Denver. This is the Chaunce send off. Details are starting to come together. Chance is none the wiser as to what's going on. But we're doing the Chaunce send off pod at the Skylark on. Gosh. What is it?

[C]

June 26th.

[A]

June 26th. It's gonna be, it's gonna be an awesome time. This is gonna be a historic show. It's gonna be fun. It's going to be sad. It's going to be drunk.

[B]

For sure.

[A]

It's going to be drunk.

[C]

I'm going to get hammered.

[A]

I'm going to Uber. Ubers will be involved. No DUIs. Everyone should Uber.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Unless you are sober, in which case

[C]

you can give me a ride or walking distance.

[A]

Yep, that works too.

[C]

Can't get a Dewey on a bike, so don't bike.

[A]

Yeah,

[C]

yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

But yeah. Live podcast Skylark June 26th. Please come if you're local to the area and you can make it work. It's going to be a historic podcast and all the good things. And to that point, like I said, I know I'll get this question quite a bit. But if you are local to the Denver area and or passing through, we're going to rotate co hosts for a while while we process Chauncey's absence. We're definitely not going to have any permanent fill ins so we'll see a lot of the familiar faces here. Be Jess, it'll be Elise. Katie will be in town biking. But if you want to throw your hat into the ring and be considered as a sit in co host for an episode or two, the link to throw your hat into that ring will be available in the show notes.

[C]

Yeah, I hate you, everyone who does. But have fun. It's a great, it's a good seat.

[A]

I will require that you wear a bright orange wig. That is the only requirement.

[C]

Yeah. But yeah, have fun. If you think you'd be good at it, you should do it. It's a fun experience.

[A]

That was the least sincere.

[C]

I'm just thinking about how first off I'm trying to not come across bitter but also I'm going through all seven phases of grief in this processing thing. And so part of that is sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, this makes a ton. And then other times I'm like, I just wanna burn everything down. So you're gonna get a spectrum of that and that's just where I fall on it. On.

[A]

Yeah. So I have a semi segment where I talk you out of moving later. So yeah, there doesn't have to be a guest segment.

[C]

That one needs to come after the acceptance one. That phase is she's coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a Today segment.

[C]

What? Acceptance?

[A]

No, no, no. Talking you out of movies.

[C]

Oh, I was going to say that's like, we can't put a timeline on that.

[A]

I know where it weighs off.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Last but not least is if you enjoy the show and you want to support us, you can do so patreon.com backpackerradio and every episode ad free via Patreon. Also, probably our best perk in the history of the podcast.

[C]

Yeah. How about if you enjoy Chance, because that's where she's going. So she's going. So me and Zach talked about how we do want to keep doing Patreons, because those we can do remote. Because, you know, if you're there by

[A]

choice, the Patreon is our sandbox. That's where we test stuff.

[C]

You're knowing that, like, maybe. Maybe every now and then in the sandbox, there's a cat turd, and you're like, oh, shit, better eat that. Here we are. And so if you want us in your ears and if you're. If you're also in denial and you want to pretend that this doesn't exist and this. None of this is actually really happening, come to Patreon, because on Patreon, we're going to keep putting out stuff except remote. And if no one goes to Patreon, maybe, like, the effort doesn't seem worth the squeeze juice stuff. So, you know, that's where we test things. But if you really like it and you want to keep hearing that stuff, then you can go there, and then we can see that. We could say, oh, look, they seem to want this. Let's do more of this. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I was thinking about how we were talking about, like, people on the east coast or just, like, maybe getting, like, a person that for one reason or another wouldn't make it to this table. And I thought of a name for what we can name the Patreons. Bpr, bpr, Backpacker radio. Backpacker radio. But Patreon remote or Patreon recorded.

[A]

I like that.

[C]

Yeah. So it's bpr. Bpr.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Backpack radio, but in Patreon remote.

[A]

Yeah. Any of this stuff gets enough traction, we'll find a way to get it more daylight.

[C]

And then we can just have it be bpr and we can put a little two after it, like a squared symbol. And then we can just slowly overtake regular backpacker radio and then burn that to the ground.

[A]

Yeah. Just a revolution from within the side.

[C]

Yeah. This is to get around, like, trademarks and Stuff. I don't know what you set up, but this is my plan.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We'll figure out how legally soundproof this is.

[C]

How good's that name, though?

[A]

Bpr. Bpr. I like that.

[C]

Yeah. We were coming down Mount Galbraith when we. Remember that part where we stopped and we were like, oh, shit, we're in front of the entire group. Yeah, that's what I was writing about.

[A]

And then I got a flat tire. Yeah, I remember that.

[C]

I always get my best thoughts on trail.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So BPR. BPR.

[A]

BPR squared. There it is. Patreon.com backpacker radio. Yeah, if you like anything that we've got cooking, that's the place to get it.

[C]

And we can make a good slogan like bpr. BPR for the real fans of bpr. Sounds kind of like the Good Burger.

[A]

Sounds like. Yeah. Future shirt for sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. But in the meantime, before we get all that additional exclusive content, you're stuck with me. You got Chaunce. But you also get the episodes ad free. So there's always a good stuff. Yeah, there's always good stuff happening.

[C]

Ugh. One day I'll be able to talk about it without, like, fumbling my whole speech through it. I imagine listening back to that's gonna be cluttered.

[A]

Which part?

[C]

All of it. I feel like I just threw up the bpr.

[A]

Bpr.

[C]

No, just everything I said.

[A]

Oh, I mean, welcome to every episode. Radio. Yeah, this is where we black out for two hours and just hope that people are drunk enough to enjoy it. Yes. Interview time. Let's do it. None other than our guy, Steven Palazzo.

[B]

Yes, correct.

[A]

AKA near miss. Who's an army veteran through hiker peak, Bagger and all around mountain adventurer. Near miss as through hike to at cvt, AZT and ct. He's also submitted.

[C]

Submitted.

[A]

I know. Why is it. Why is there be there?

[C]

Rachel's being funny.

[A]

She's trying to get me. I'll read anything on the prompter. As I was saying, and I knew

[C]

this goes up to every single one

[A]

I submit summited every 14er in Colorado. Is now pursuing winter summits of the same peaks among other international peaks. He's also completed three of the seven summits. Denali, Kilimanjaro and Akanaguang aa.

[B]

Yeah, it's a hard one.

[A]

That is a hard one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm.

[C]

We'll let you say it.

[A]

Yeah. I'm glad you're here to say it for us. Near miss. Thank you so much for joining us here on backpacker Radio.

[B]

Yeah, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. Super, super surreal being in the studio. Like I said. Right. Four years ago I was getting ready to retire from the army. Didn't want. Didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, what I wanted to be when I wanted to grow up. And I thought I would take a long walk like Earl Schaefer. Right. How to walk off the war, stuff like that. And it just resonated with me. And this is one of the first podcasts that I listened to was Backpacker Radio.

[C]

Really? What'd you think? What was your first impression?

[B]

Awesome.

[A]

Do you remember which episode?

[B]

Oh, man. It was the guy who went down to Ecuador and did a bunch of peaks down there. But he talked about how to read a map. I mean, just all the do's and don'ts of through hiking. Then there was a man. This is like 2022. There was a top 10 tips. I think if through hiking does always do well.

[C]

People love a list.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. The list was good. But then, you know, just listen to all the other guests that you've had on. I mean, it's amazing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The PCT Murder One. That was really cool. Or not the. AT Murder One. Listen to that.

[C]

National Park After Dark, perhaps. What's so funny is you're telling us these and me and Zach are like. It sounds like vaguely familiar.

[B]

I can only imagine.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of how many you put out. For sure. Yeah.

[A]

So you mentioned your military background. Let's start there. What got you into the military?

[B]

Yeah. So civic duty. I tried college. It didn't work out for me. I actually went to college here at University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. I majored in skiing and didn't get really good grades.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You never know with Colorado.

[B]

You never know. Yeah.

[A]

I'm sure there's a skiing course. I'm sure you can get college credit for skiing.

[B]

I would hope so.

[C]

Now, what's the coolest ski trick you can do?

[B]

I can't really do any tricks.

[C]

You jump off high things.

[B]

Maybe cornices. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But not like crazy high things.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I'm really risk averse when it comes to skiing.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I got a concussion last season from a 16 year old that ran into me on Breckenridge.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Skier, snowboarder.

[B]

It was a skier.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But he. He was on a run that he probably shouldn't have been on. Huh. You know, and it was icy because the conditions this year just were horrid.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he lost control. The ski patrol saw it. They're like, do you want us to get his number. I'm like, he's 16 years old. Like, what, he could give me a fake number? I mean, what am I gonna do?

[C]

He's not giving you a real number.

[B]

I know.

[C]

No. No chance he's gonna start running.

[B]

Exactly. And my buddies were with me. I was like, I knew right away I had a concussion because I had him previously. Being in the army. I was like, I have to get down before the adrenaline wears off. We got to get the hell out of here.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

So.

[A]

So in that situation where you get a concussion, what is the protocol?

[B]

Protocol for getting down the slope?

[A]

Just dealing. Because I've had concussions and I've always been like, the fuck am I supposed to do about this? Other than, like, not continue to do the thing that is causing the concussion?

[C]

Don't go to sleep.

[A]

You don't sleep.

[B]

So that. Yeah, that's one of the ones. You're not supposed to go to sleep right away. Wear sunglasses indoors. You know, my tinnitus just goes off the charts after I've had another bell rung. I mean, it is just loud for days on end.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

And this past one was about. It lasted about two weeks. Just like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like in your ears all day long.

[C]

Is that what it's called when it does that?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Tinnitus.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Thought you were talking about your tendons. I hate when that happens. In your ears.

[B]

Yeah. It's awful.

[A]

Yeah. I know people that are, like, debilitated by it. It's bad. I don't think there's, like, anything you can do about it.

[B]

No, there's not. The owner of Texas Roadhouse, the founder, ended up committing suicide because he. Yeah. Because he had such bad. I mean, it's there all the.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In your ears. There's nothing you can do about it. It's always there.

[C]

Maybe I thought everyone did this, but everyone, at least in my circle, always says that when they ring, it means someone's talking about you. Is that. Have you ever come across that. Cuz that was grade school up. That is when your ears ring, someone's talking about you.

[A]

Yeah. I didn't ever take that to be a literal thing.

[C]

Well, no, I don't think it's lit. I'm not saying that. It's like me saying I believe in ghosts.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Literally.

[A]

I'm just saying, like, when ears ring. I think it's more in the context of it being perpetual.

[C]

I don't know. Well, all I'm saying is when it happens for a while, like, he's saying all my brain is Thinking about everyone's talking about me and that. Like, I'm like, oh, my God, can we not.

[A]

Am I canceled again?

[C]

I. Well, I've never known the name tinnitus.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But now that I know the name, I can be like, everyone's not talking about me. I'm fine.

[B]

And you only get 10 for it from the. For a VA disability, too. Really Kind of sucks.

[C]

How do you prove it?

[B]

Hearing tests throughout your career, you have to get a hearing test every year, like an audiology exam. And if it shows like, loss of

[C]

hearing over time, can't you just like, not raise your hand when they tell you to?

[B]

You can. I mean, they put you in a booth. You got to put on headphones and you got to hit this clicker, right. Whenever you hear this audible tone.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And it's different pitches and stuff like that, and it switches back between the ears. I didn't want to get out of the army based off of loss of hearing and stuff like that, so I would cheat. You know, if you count two seconds, you know the tone's going to come. And every once in a while you get this voice in your headphones. You are clicking the button when there is not an audible tone. Do not click the button unless you hear an audible tone.

[C]

All right, Those are the voices, but

[B]

that's primarily how you prove it. It's just through audiology exams and stuff like that.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the tinnitus in your military service, I assume explosives related or gunshots or.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I was stupid. I didn't wear ear earplugs when I should have, like on ranges and stuff like that. Some other wood concussions, IED blast. I mean, there's nothing you can really do about it, you know, it's just. It's an occupational hazard. It's going to happen pretty much.

[C]

I got tangented on the skiing part, but how did you get into the army and what did you do?

[B]

So I joined in 99. Prior to 911, I was military police for the majority of my career. And then I. Yeah, just civic duty mostly, you know, and then really didn't have anything else that I was doing at that time in life. So I figured it might be a good thing to try. And originally I only wanted to do five years. That was it. I just don't want to do one enlistment, you know, get some experience and then get out and do something else. And then 9, 11 happened, and then I was. My first reenlistment came up. I was deployed to Iraq, married, you know, There was no way that I was going to get out at that point. So I re upped. Right. And then it just, it kind of spot. It just keeps going. You re up, you re up, you re up. And then at your, at that point you're over 10 years and you're like, well, I might as well just make a career out of it at that point. You don't want to get out with 10 years because you're halfway there.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, to getting your retirement.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So you mentioned before the show that now you're not married.

[B]

Yeah, I got. Ended up getting divorced.

[C]

Is that because of the military?

[B]

I mean, yes and no. You know, you grow in different ways. There's a lot of time and space between you and the other person when you're on deployments. You know, I had three deployments during marriage and it just, it didn't, it didn't last.

[C]

So unfortunately you think it was the deployments and like the distance.

[B]

I don't, I mean, I don't want to blame it on that because there's very successful marriages in the military and they've been through multiple, multiple deployments. You know, I think it's just, it's based on the person and what, what they're going through.

[C]

Yeah, well, I don't think that's blame. I think that's just like. Just because someone's done it doesn't mean everyone can. I can't freaking run the at the way Tara can.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, just because she's done it doesn't mean.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

So you mentioned the five year plan, and then 911 happened. Were you still on the five year plan like on September 10th? Like, is that what really flipped the switch for me?

[B]

I was somewhat. Yeah. It was so bizarre. I was thinking about this the other day because this year is the 25th anniversary of 9 11. Right. So I was in Germany. I just gotten there. I didn't see any of the coverage because I was overseas. Right. And then somebody came, we were in processing, Somebody came in. They're like the Pentagon and the World Trade Centers have been attacked. Go back to your units. We're like, what the hell is going on? So we go back, they're starting to fill up water cans, you know, laying out equipment and they're like, we're going, you know, we're getting ready to go. Obviously it didn't happen that quickly. It was a couple years later. But what sparked the national unity from that incident that happened afterwards was amazing. Right. And I didn't see that not being in the United States. But I saw it on a global scale because stationed in Germany, everyone from that city came to our base. They laid flowers, they had a visual, they lit candles. And then when we were finally allowed to go off after all the force protection measures were reduced, you would go into a pub and they'd like, you're American, you know, come sit with me, I want to talk with you. You know, it just huge outpouring of support. Right. And I don't want to, you know, go down the road of what we are in today, but it was just a very unique experience being overseas when it happened.

[A]

Yeah. I think we need to be attacked by aliens to get back to that level of, like, unity.

[B]

I totally believe in aliens. We go down that rabbit hole.

[C]

It's always here to hear. Well, not cool, but it's interesting to hear where people were when all that, because I'm from New York, so I lived right outside the city. So it's always interesting to hear, like, how different places responded. Because all I knew was how, like, this is happening. Right. You know, my dad's a video engineer. Well, he was. He retired, but he did, like, live TV shoots. And he didn't have a cell phone. He was very old school. And so they all had picked us up from school at different times. And we didn't know why, but we started putting together that everyone who was getting picked up had a sibling in the middle school because we were in elementary. And we were like, something happened at the middle school. We were talking amongst ourselves. So I knew I was going to get picked up because I had a sibling in the middle school. And so when they called me, I was like. Knew it.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

And they brought us home and we saw it on the TV and stuff. But my dad doesn't have a cell phone. The office isn't answering. So we're like, we don't know where he is because he was in video. They sent them up to, like, the top of whatever buildings they were doing the news from.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So he was taking that footage that you were saying that, you know, you couldn't access, comes home in the middle of the night just, like, covered in soot.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

And so it's crazy to, like, go through that day and be like, when this. Because it's such a strong memory. When this day happened for me, something happened for someone else. But, dude, there was a fucking guy that watches the hikes and stuff. 1, 9, 11, he DMs me on Instagram being like, I can't believe you didn't make a post about this. You don't care about your country, this and that. I was like, you have no idea what the fucking day was for me. Don't. Don't go somewhere else. Yeah, but yeah, that's crazy.

[B]

I hate people like that. I talked to a guy that did the at during 9 11. He was on trail. He said it was so bizarre because it was pre cell phone era. Right. They didn't have any communication. They're on a section 911 happened. They came back out and the whole world had changed completely different. They walked into town, they did. They didn't know.

[C]

Probably like the COVID like the same thing with like them coming out and being like, wait, everything's closed now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I wonder if there's anyone actually close to the city when that happened.

[C]

Well, September.

[A]

Yeah, you'd probably be north of it if you're doing a northbound but like conceivably a flip flop. Like there's some circumstance or someone who's

[C]

going slow that hasn't realized they're not going to make it in time yet

[A]

or they're hiking south or. Yeah, I mean, I just bet there's someone out there that was.

[B]

Yeah. That you could totally see. That's, you know, the skyline right there from that portion.

[C]

If you're going sobo and you started in like July, there's a pretty good chance that you could be around there at that time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Because if you started at the end of July going sobo, I mean a month to get through the whites and everything on new feet is feasible.

[A]

If that's. You hit us up because I want to hear that story.

[C]

Yeah, okay. Anyway, so anyway, so okay, so that happens and your five year plan goes out the window.

[B]

Yeah, out the window. Yep. Reenlisted, got back from that deployment, became a drill sergeant, reenlisted again. They dangled a golden handcuff in front of you. You know, it's like $25,000 if you reenlist. I was like, yeah, sure. Did another one, another deployment, came back and then did my final last reenlistment, you know, which basically puts you indefinite. And then it just says, yeah, I'll do 20 years.

[A]

My initial read on you was that you were just a very sweet guy. Can I see your drill sergeant side?

[C]

Yeah, give me a mean face.

[A]

Can you talk to us like we're.

[C]

Yeah, talk to me like I'm a piece of. Take it a little too far.

[B]

I mean,

[C]

come on, yell at me.

[A]

Chauncey's do some push ups right now.

[C]

Yell at me. Look me in the eyes and yell at me.

[B]

Fucking disappear like mogwai or fucking get out of my face. What are you doing? What do you think? What do you think you're doing? You look like a fucking football path. Push. Push, Private.

[A]

Push.

[C]

I never survived.

[B]

John's already starting to cry.

[C]

Oh, man, that was really nice. Thanks.

[A]

Do you have that in you naturally, or is that like a performance? But not for us, but, like, when you were actually being a drill sergeant,

[B]

I think it naturally came out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. At that point, I was like a really angry individual, too.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it was kind of good to harness that, I think. Sure.

[A]

Does that help to scratch the itch or is it like a snowball effect where, like, you're more of the authoritarian within your group and it starts to build on itself?

[B]

It starts. It does. It snowballs. Yeah, it starts to build on itself for sure. But seeing the transition that people make from citizen to soldier, I mean, that was so rewarding. You know, they come in this mold, this, the ball of clay, and then you. And it was during the OIF OEF years. This is like 0507.

[C]

That's OIF OEF.

[B]

Oh, sorry. Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, which was Afghanistan. Right. So you were going. If you joined, you knew that you were going. Right. And seeing the amount of people that signed up to do that was awe inspiring, honestly, because they knew they were going to deploy, you know, if you signed up during those years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they come in this ball of clay and you mold them out and they, you know, you send them out

[C]

as killers, share with all the, like, feelings of, like, love and want for the country at the time that were happening. I mean, you could feel it even from my seat in my desk. It's like school, where it was just like, everyone wants to come together and help and do their part. That a lot of people did sign up like that. What was the. I'm sure there was probably a moment for a lot of these people where, like, they're riding that high of, like, you know. Yeah. Excitement. And then they get out there and it's like cold, hard shit. What was that like? To see the people that go from that and have it be so encouraging to. Then you're deployed and you're seeing, you know, like, you were saying, explosives and things like that. And it's real.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think each person's experience is. Is unique to them. Right. When they go out there, I do. Oh, man. I. So there was. I. This is back in post don't ask, don't tell days. But you still couldn't be homosexual, lgbtq. Right. And be in the military. So there was an individual who came up during one of our cycles that's, you know, when you're training them as a drill sergeant. And he told me and my. My partner, my battle buddy, I'm gay. Right. So he has to go see the commander. You sit down with the commander, and he has to ask you a list of 10 questions to certify that you're homosexual or gay.

[C]

What are the 10 questions? I mean, like, what does this picture do for you?

[A]

Poster of Magic Mike.

[B]

This is how archaic.

[C]

Enough.

[B]

This is how archaic the process was, you know, back in that time period, like 20 years ago.

[C]

It's hard to not laugh at kind of now.

[B]

It's crazy. So the last question is, do you mind if I call your parents and tell them no? Yeah. That's the very last question.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And they got to it, and he. He caved. He's like, I'm not. I'm just trying to get out of the Army. I'm very scared. I don't want to deploy. I think I made the wrong decision. And we. We mentored him through it, helped him, turned him around. He completed training, and then he went to a deployment, and he ended up getting kia, unfortunately. I mean, it's like. It's those things that happen throughout a military career that, like, you know, just kind of compound on one another. And there are things that you think about, you know, is there a part

[C]

of them in those tests? It's like, hey, this guy might not just be, like, scared to do this. He might just, like, we might be at question 10, and he doesn't want to discommunicate himself from his family.

[A]

That's what I was thinking.

[C]

I was thinking he just took it back because it was like, oh, you're gonna. You're gonna do that? Never mind.

[A]

Yeah. Can't tell dad about this one.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

He did straight up tell us that he was. He was using it to get out there. Okay.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah. Whether he was trying to hide the fact or not, I mean, I don't. I don't know.

[C]

Do you think people were just more scared when they finally saw the reality

[B]

of what things looked like? I think somewhat there's a romanticism that goes with being deployed in war that Hollywood is kind of like, you know, lone survive, all these Band of Brothers, Lone Survivor, all these movies and shows that are out there, and young, you know, impressionable sons and daughters of America See it, And they're like, that's, you know, that's what I want to do. That's what I'm sure. Yeah. And then when it comes to, all right, I'm going to go do this. Right. It's going to really happen. I think people sometimes regret the decision that they make.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is there a period in the deployment process where, like, you're not in it long enough for the. For that to set in yet? Like, is there a honeymoon period where you get there and you're like, this rocks? And then all of a sudden, you're like, ooh, maybe not so much.

[B]

I think it depends on the deployment, and it depends on the location where you're at. Some deployments were much easier than others that I had for sure. Right. And they were. I won't say cakewalks, but they were safer than some other ones. Right. Other deployments. You know, right away, as soon as you land off that, like, it's going to be tough. Yeah, it's going to be hard.

[A]

Are you able to tell pretty quickly if someone has called the soldier gene in them, or is that something that can be taught? Like, is that innate? Because when I see someone, like, the hiking Viking, I'm sure you're familiar with him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think that guy's born a soldier. Like, he's got something in him that just makes him want to go do that, and I think he's well suited for it. I don't think I would hold up nearly as well in that circumstance. I'm just curious if that's something that you think can be taught to someone through drill training, or if they just show up and they've got something in them and it's your job to, like, bring that out of them.

[B]

Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I think there are some characters and qualities that you might not necessarily be born with, but you can harness through training. But at the end of the day, it comes down to respecting other human life. Honestly, it comes because I never thought about politics when I was over there. I didn't think about ideologies. I thought about bringing people back home safe. I mean, that's what you think about. You know, you don't give a. About all the other stuff. It's war. Yeah. You know, it's not up to you. It's just war.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So you compared some of your deployments depending on the location. In the latter part of it, you said that some of them, you knew as soon as you got off, it was going to be kind of chaos. Or what have you. Where did you get. Where did you get deployed? And what were some of those more intense deployments like?

[B]

My first one was the ground war of Iraq. Crossed the berm March 19, 2003. Like the very first wave to go through it was straight up chaos. I mean, no rules, very wild, wild west. We did some things that probably bred the insurgency, to be honest with you. Looking back at it, very little rapport with the general populace or the public there. You didn't know when you were going to go home. There was no end date. It was just like, you're going in and that's it. There was no infrastructure that was set up the way it is on deployments now. You know, you have KBR and Halliburton and all these other corporations, you know, that are in the defense industry that provide a lot of the logistics that are needed while you're over there. Food, water, shelter, all that kind of stuff. We didn't have any of that. It was very bare bones type kind of scenario. My next one was to Afghanistan. We were in a fob and gardez outside of fob lightning, up in the mountains, like at 8, 000ft, which was cool. It was very rewarding because we trained the ana. And I wonder how many of those guys are still alive today, you know, after Afghan National Army.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I was going through pictures and I was looking, I was like, man, I wonder if any of those are even alive, you know, just for what that country has gone through and what it's going through now. Honestly, I felt like I made a big difference on that deployment versus other ones. Iraqis, they were lazy. Like, they did not want to help their own country. They wanted you to do the work. And then they would just kind of sit back and. And take the security from that. Afghans, the ones that I dealt with, were very passionate, passionate about wanting to change their country and wanting a better life. It was a very unique experience. On that deployment, I did another one to Iraq. We ran a. We ran a prison, Compound 5 and Compound 7 in Baghdad. It was filled of the dudes of the dudes that our government did not want to give to the Iraqis for intelligence purposes until they were completely. We gave it the country back to them is basically what it was. And there was an Iraqi prison adjacent that. And they would, you know, their guards would come over and talk to us every once in a while, and they'd be like, yeah, as soon as you give these guys to us, we're gonna kill them like this. We're just gonna kill them. And, like, the number two guy of Al Qaeda in Iraq, aqi at that time was in the prison. And the CIA, you know, they'd come in, they'd be like, he's right there. That's that guy. And he had to. So he broke a rule. I don't know what it was. It was some stupid freaking rule. And he had to go to solitary confinement for, like, an hour. Wouldn't go right. So he says, I want to talk to big chief. Big chief. And at my rank at that point, I was considered big chief, right. Because I was the platoon sergeant of the platoon that was running the prison. So I go down there. This guy spoke perfect English. He was educated in Oxford. I mean, he was intelligent. He was smart. And he argued with me for 45 minutes about why America is bad and why, you know, they support Israel and the Middle east treatment and all this stuff. And. And I'm just sitting there listening to it. And finally when he was done, I was, like, fudgeing. If you would have just gone, like, 45 minutes ago, you would have 15 minutes left right now. Just go, dude. Like, that's all that it is.

[C]

You're negotiating with, like, a kid about recess?

[B]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

Wait, that's crazy. So you're telling me that you came in here to talk about hiking, but you are the guy that the second highest person in Al Qaeda had to negotiate with to get out of his solitary confinement?

[B]

Yeah. He was huge. Yeah.

[C]

That guy wild.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you ever feel like he was chipping away at you? Be like, you know what? Maybe we're not the best?

[B]

I mean, you do. You do sometimes sit back and think, you know, like, are we making a difference? Like, is this better for that country? You know, but at the end of the day, you're. You're doing what you're told to do. Yeah. I mean, you. You raised your right hand, and that's what you got to do.

[C]

So it doesn't matter what came next.

[B]

For the deployments after that one, I did one to Kuwait, where we provided security in Kuwait, Jordan, and Qatar. And at that point, I was the first sergeant, which. That's like, you're in charge of a company, and there's maybe 150 people in that company that deploy downrange. So I got to travel around to, like, all the different sites and stuff. I wasn't more. I wasn't a door kicker anymore. As you move up in rank, like, the responsibilities and roles kind of. They broaden the scope and whatnot. And you're just not out there firing a gun anymore. You're doing other things. So that one was cool in that regard. And it was just an amazing unit. I mean, I love that unit. To this day, I still keep in touch with so many of the people that we were, you know, deployed with and. And trained with. Just a great group of individuals and humans came back, was volunteered to go on an Eastern European deployment, which I don't really call it a deployment because we could, like, drink over there and stuff. It's not really a deployment. I mean, it was like Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Germany. It was. To me, it was just kind of like living over there. But it was to counter Russian aggression. You know, this is like back in 2015 and 16, when Putin was starting his stuff in Crimea and Ukraine.

[C]

He might have been in Poland at the same time.

[A]

Really?

[B]

When were you there?

[C]

Around. Around those years. I have a friend that worked at a summer camp with me, so I went and I stayed with her for a month.

[B]

Where in Poland?

[C]

We were in. I can't say the names. Krakow. We went to Warsaw. She was in Katowice. Katowice. It's spelled like Katowice, but it is right near Krakow. And then I went up north. I have a friend that lives in Gdansk.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

My pronunciation's terrible. You should hear me say moab.

[A]

You got it there.

[C]

Yeah. And then just, you know, on weekend trips, we'd go to a bunch of different places. So I loved it there.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

So if you were there in those tent, I mean, it seemed really nice. I didn't notice anything tense. I mean, I'm not the most observant,

[B]

but I mean, I didn't think it was tense either, but it was more like supporting those countries that Putin could have.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Around with. Yeah. Showing her presence. Because we had withdrawn so many forces after those years from Europe. I mean, we had, like, divisions, like, hundreds of thousands of soldiers that were stationed over there. And then when the Middle east happened, obviously the optics change and the focus changes. So you move soldiers out of there and you put them other places. And then Putin, you know, you realize that, and he's like, I can do whatever the hell I want.

[C]

And you can't drink when you're in the Middle East.

[B]

No, typically, no.

[C]

I mean, there's no bars or the different laws.

[B]

Yeah, there's. There's no alcohol over there. Some people try and get it shipped to them. You know, they do the. They'll put it in Coke cans, and they'll reseal it, and they'll send it over and it gets caught. I mean, it's just.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

There was. When you. You could go to Qatar and take like a pass and you can get like two beers or two drinks while you're there, but they have, like. It's very controlled. They have a wristband and stuff like that.

[C]

That's why. What's the point?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I know.

[A]

You mentioned, as your time progressed, you were moving up rank and like, more managerial as opposed to having, like a weapon in your hand. Did you prefer that or did you prefer being on the front line in

[B]

the thick of it? There's. There's definitely a romanticism, like I said, of being on the front lines. Yeah. When you're far removed from it, you really see, like, how policy meets boots on the ground and you get into the. I don't want to say the dirty side of it, but you. The. Yeah. It's just. I preferred being. My favorite job was squad leader, bottom line. That was Staff Sergeant. Sergeant. Right. That was my first deployment. You are. That's it. The buck stops with you. Like, you are making all the shots, all the calls when you're out there on patrol. Like, that's it. That was my favorite job, for sure.

[A]

So as you move up, you're getting closer to the intel, I imagine. And kind of. I guess you've alluded to it. There's got to be times where you disagree with the way things are done. Or is there not even room for that?

[B]

You kind of see the clowns that are running the circus. It's really what it is. You're like, is this. What is this? How you know, is this really what it is? You pull back that. That the wizard of Oz, you know, and you see all the puppets.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Good God. Yeah. It's kind of eye opening and it's concerning in some. Some regard. I don't want to paint it in a bad light, like it's being run by a bunch of. That's not what I'm saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You just. You see the sausage being made.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Probably true for everything in life, right?

[C]

It sounds like jobs.

[A]

Yeah. We're an infallible species.

[C]

Like, can you choose to stay a squad leader if you like that position? Or is it just like a sorry,

[B]

if you're worth your soul, you're going to move up in rank. I mean, you're going to move up in position and authority and stuff. You know, because you work your workhorses. And it's also professional punishment. You know, you're. You're solid. They. They Rely on you, and then they're going to move you forward. So. And then my last deployment was to. Bless you.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

My last deployment was to Syria, which was extremely interesting. Whole nother layer of complexity. You had us there occupying a failed state, partnered with a non state actor in the Syrian Democratic Forces who was against a NATO ally in Turkey. You also had Russia there providing support to the Syrian government, Iranian Shia militia groups shuttling weapons over to Hezbollah, and then Israel, who was operating within the battle space as well. The most complex environment I had ever seen in my entire life. You couldn't write a more complex scenario in war. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

That sentence did not stick. That. That's how complex it was for my brain.

[A]

And definitely still current a lot of what you're describing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's still. Still going on to this day.

[C]

What happened, what happened in that one before we closed this circle of deployments?

[B]

That one was. I was at that, you know, that level, that hierarchy of strategic level. I was at the staff of Combined Joint Task Force, Operation Inherent Resolve. That's what the operation was called. To hunt isis, basically, is what it was. And sent over to Syria to help run that base Kobani landing zone, which was mostly special forces, some special mission unit stuff over there that was operating out of those areas, going down and hunting isis. It was very little conventional soldiers. I think there was maybe like, I don't know, a thousand soldiers or something like that over there at one point. What. So when Trump was in office, the first administration, he came out with the tweet, we're withdrawing from Syria. Right. We're gonna. I was over there when that happened, and it was chaos because, you know, no one knew what was going to happen. How are we going to do it, all this kind of stuff. And, And I remember the commanding general came out and it. It struck me because he's like, I operate off of orders and not tweets. And the last time I saw, we have an order to occupy this area and hunt isis, and that's what we're going to do. And he kind of like righted the ship, you know, to see that chaos that's in the policy and the political side. But you have grounded warrior leaders that are like, hey, this is. This is what we need to focus on. Right. Versus getting distracted with all the other stuff. Stuff that's going on.

[A]

Yeah. So what was the outcome of that?

[B]

We. The outcome was that we eventually withdrew some forces, but left a large. I wouldn't say a large portion, but some. Some forces there it was all about, like, numbers. You know, you had to count how many were there every day and stuff like that. It just. It became a numbers game really, is what it was.

[C]

When I talk about, well, when people ask me about my hikes, there's always like one or two. You know, you keep a story or two in the back of your mind, for this is one that always pleases the crowd. The bread pillow, the dog, getting my shit on me. You know, those ones are always classic wins. When someone asks you about your deployments or when you talk about them, do you have like an overarching, like one or two that you're like, these are good stories. People tend to, you know, typically maybe not enjoy because that sounds so morbid when you're talking about war. So I don't mean it in that way, but this is one that people appreciate to hear.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I was on a. On top of a police station in Iraq pulling security. And, you know, there's a mosque on almost every corner, right? Just like there's churches on almost every corner here. And they have called a prayer. And the call to prayer is usually the Allah Akbar, right? It's really loud and whatnot. The sun was getting ready to come up. And this call to prayer was completely different. It was something I'd never heard before. It was this low singing in Arabic, something to do with Islam, but it was like peaceful, serene, with the sun coming up at the same time. I was like, I am in this environment, this chaos, right? This epicenter of just war. And I'm hearing this while the sun is rising right now. It was a very transcendent and powerful moment to be, like, stuck in that space, but not in that moment, if that makes sense.

[C]

You know, I feel like that relates to moments people have on trail. Like, you were saying that. And I was seeing this one time on the PCT where like, the sun was setting and we were in like a dead burn area and I was so tired. And you just like all the vibes line up and you're like, huh? You know, like, this is like, I don't know, something means a little more, you know?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Interesting.

[B]

I might get another.

[C]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

Another one is kind of morbid. That's good. Yeah. An individual was setting up an IED and he self detonated it. So his body parts were all over the place. And we were riding up, you know, we were on patrol and we saw it and the Iraqi police were like, well, we have to. We got to pick it up. You know, we can't Just leave it on the side here. So we started picking up the body parts, and we were like, I got a leg. So he's like, I got an arm.

[C]

You know, I feel like. Like you have to kind of, like, maintain your own sanity, though. You do, you know, like, if you're looking at it for what it actually is, like, that's a mental breakdown waiting.

[B]

Yeah. You'll go insane. You're going. Yeah, you can't. You got to live in the, you know, good mind of a goldfish. You got to just.

[C]

Is that what they say?

[B]

I mean, that's what I say now. I didn't have that saying back then, but you just. You have to compartmentalize for sure.

[C]

Do they precondition you with certain sayings like that to help prep you for it? Because it's like, hey, one day or another, you're going to have to be the guy picking up the limbs. Like, really, these things in mind?

[B]

No, not really, unfortunately. I wish they would have, you know, after you've been through one, you kind of learn that lingo, right? And what the experience is like, and you can pass that on to under other individuals. And that's what was cool about being a drill sergeant, is being able to pass that on and just talking to the young privates and like, hey, you're going to have bad days. Like, you're going to have really bad days, you know, but you got to forget, you know, compartmentalize. And a lot of it for me personally, from my experiences, I didn't think about it while I was there. It all came flooding back when I came home, like, maybe 90 days later, you know, after you're assimilated back into life, and it's like this memory will just flash in your head. You're like, oh, my God, I. I could have died in that moment, you know, but you. It doesn't. It doesn't translate or compute while you're there in that moment, but it does come back later on, if that makes sense. It's really weird, really bizarre.

[C]

What was your. What was one of your near deaths?

[A]

If you're willing to talk about it.

[C]

Yeah. You can always say no to anything I say.

[B]

Sure. We were on patrol, and an IED went off, and immediately you see the flashlight, right? And just this big boom. Dust everywhere, and the tinnitus, the. You know, like everything's muffled. It's like you're underwater immediately. Tried to call on the radio, you know, get support. Hey, we've been hit. You know, because they were. I don't know. What traffic was going. I was pissed off because everyone's stepping over me. You know, you're all using the same frequency, right? So I was like, flash, flash, flash, you know, trying to get emergency traffic. Our vehicle, one of them was destroyed, pretty much. Flat tires, but they have run flats.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you know that it can go a certain distance to get at least somewhere safe. So by the time we got back, recovered everything. I'm looking at the, you know, the side of the Humvee, it was just peppered because they pack it with like ball bearings and screws and nuts and all this stuff in the explosive material. So when it detonates, like a pinata, like a pinata, like an explosive, like

[C]

they pour these things into it. Like.

[B]

No, no, they'll, like, they'll take, you know, a metal can and they'll pack it with explosives, but then they'll put like ball bearings and screws and nuts and bolts in there too. When it detonates, it throws that out. Right.

[C]

I guess I've never really thought about the human component of, of putting one of these things together. I just picture a machine doing it somewhere.

[B]

No, no, they make them. They make them. Yeah. A lot of them are homemade, honestly. Yeah. Now. But yeah, I, I went back, looked at my vehicle and there was like this huge chunk that was out of the door and out of the mirror. I was like, yeah, that definitely could have been it.

[C]

Oh, was that where you were sitting?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you just happened to not be sitting there at the moment?

[B]

No, I was still in the, in the truck. But it's, it's got like, you know, it's up armored Humvee, so it's built to withstand that stuff. But just, you know, maybe another ball bearing or something like that could have been in there.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

For sure.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

But the Iranian Shia militia groups are around. They started providing these things called explosive formed projectiles and that, that'll go through like a tank. I mean, it's so crazy. And that's what killed a lot of soldiers while we were over there throughout those years.

[C]

Those came after this iteration that you were with because they saw that those weren't working and they were like, the screws need to be upgraded.

[B]

Yeah. They started providing random stuff, but.

[C]

Well, thanks for sharing the story.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Sorry, I know this is a hiking party.

[C]

No, I don't, I don't want to upset you. That's why I'm like, let's talk about something lighter so I don't bum out our guests.

[B]

We got Bourbon.

[C]

That's just the world that I like, am so far removed from that. It's always just very interesting to hear stories because I don't. I'm not submersed in it, you know, so it's always cool to get someone who has done things that I haven't and probably would never and, like, hear what the experience was like. I think it's nice when you're willing to share that.

[B]

It's so bizarre because I was thinking about this driving up today. So many vets, I think, gravitate towards backpacking, hiking, mountaineering and stuff when they get out, you know, hiking Viking, Quadzilla.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot of them out there that.

[A]

Veterans on the show.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A lot of what you're talking about overlaps. Like, even when you finish a trail and like, you know, 90 days passes and then you have that post trail, like, or when you're having that moment where you're seeing a sunset and, like, everything's put in perspective and the camaraderie and the, you know, like, the routine of it all. Like, we've found over the years so many overlaps from. Because like Zach said, there's so many people that have even been guests on the show that have served in some way, and the overlaps seem very present in all of it.

[B]

Yeah. I will say post trail depression is 100 times harder than post. Well, for me, I thought it was.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Why?

[B]

I don't. I don't know. I don't know. But it did hit me really, really hard. And sometimes it still does. Yeah. This is after the eight.

[A]

I mean, do you get this after each hike, or is it just the first hike where it hit the hardest?

[B]

After the 80, hit hard. After I got back from Ecuador, hit harder. And I found, like, when I get back from a mountaineering expedition or a through hike or something, I have to go right back to another one or else I know it'll hit. I mean, I was. I was like, I couldn't get out of bed for a day or two. I mean, it was like bad depression.

[C]

Well, was it like a. Like. And maybe you don't remember the details of it, but was there a progression of, like, slowly it's getting worse or it starts bad and then it get like, what was. How did it play out for you?

[B]

It was. Right. Yeah, I think it was right away. It wasn't like, slowly I got off the AT and I met a guy, 700, who was. His triple crown on the AT. He's like, just go do another trail, man, you got your trail legs, you know, you're retired. You have the fun, you know, you have no. I won't say responsibilities, but you can do it, right? You have the time and space. So I got back and I was like, I'm gonna go do the Colorado Trail, right? Which directly to the Colorado Trail. And then got off of that one. I was like, I'm gonna go to Ecuador. Went directly to Ecuador. And then after I got back from Ecuador, I had like this month in December between doing Ecuador and then Aconcagua and that it hit me really hard because I didn't have anything to do.

[A]

It's like, so what's the time between the military and the ata? How much time?

[B]

Yeah. So I. My final day in uniform was October of 22. I moved out here to Colorado Springs. My brother, he's a 06 retired.

[C]

What year?

[B]

2022. Yeah. Moved to Colorado Springs because I wanted to train at altitude. Right. And I've lived out in Colorado before. I knew it was beautiful. My brother lives out here. And then I started the. At February 16th is when I started it. Yeah. So like four months somewhere around there. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And what is the post military experience for you? Did you deal with PTSD at all?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I knew I had it. I got diagnosed with it before one of the deployments that I was getting ready to go because. All right, so every year you have to do this health survey in the military, Right.

[C]

And it's a survey.

[B]

A health survey? Yeah.

[C]

Health survey.

[B]

Yes. Sorry, Health survey. It's like periodic health assessment is what

[C]

I thought you said. Hell, survey.

[B]

It is a fucking.

[C]

It sounds like a military term.

[A]

It is.

[B]

So one time I went in there, I'm like, I'm just. I'm not going to lie anymore because I was sick lying on it. I told him how much I was drinking. I told him how much I wasn't sleeping. You know, just all the bad habits that I was doing, physically and mentally, emotionally, everything. And the doc that was looking at me is like, okay, number one, don't ever tell how much you drink ever again. Yeah, they will.

[A]

The doctor told you that?

[B]

Yeah. He's like, they will send you to a program. Number two, you probably shouldn't go on this deployment because of the mental state that you're in. I'm like, hey, man, what am I going to do? You know, I can't not go on a deployment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, which is a fucked up

[A]

thing for them to say after you're taking us like do you want the information or am I supposed to just

[B]

tell you exactly here? Exactly. So I, I lied the rest of the way. I was like, I'm never going to tell the truth ever again.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and there's security, you know, stuff that you have, like you have secret clearances, you know, top secret clearances that can become in jeopardy if you're doing overtly risky behavior within your, like, you know, abusing alcohol and other certain things that you're doing.

[A]

So how much were you drinking or how much did you tell the doctor that you were drinking?

[B]

Oh, I was, I was pretty dark time. I was drinking a lot. I was probably drinking a bottle a day maybe.

[A]

Wow. Yeah. And this is to deal with the ptsd.

[B]

Just, just life, life, ptsd stress. The job that I was in was super stressful. I was the first seren at the time. You know, it makes or breaks you, you know, and you're like, okay, if I screw up in this job, I will never get another job again. Like, my career will be over. So.

[A]

And you're sticking with it at this point because you just want to get your 20 years or do you feel like the obligation country?

[B]

Yeah, I was still dedicated to it for sure. Yeah. But I mean it's just Medicare, it's self medicating at that point. Yeah.

[C]

Are you 20 years up?

[B]

Are my 20 years up?

[C]

Yeah. Like, have you done?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I ended up with 24.

[C]

Got it. And that was in 22. Yep, got it. Okay.

[B]

My last official day was like February 1st or some crap like that with the.

[C]

Because obviously we're all having some, we're all having some whiskey right here.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

We, we hear a lot of people who will come on and they'll talk about substance abuse and they'll talk about like having formed or developed a drinking problem along the way. And typically, at least in my memory, the conversations that I've remembered are people that then like, they'll go sober and they won't drink anymore and they won't do anything anymore. And that is the best path forward for them. Obviously we're all drinking here today. How did you go from drinking, let's say a bottle a day to not having to maybe go sober, but in moderation? And I know that like there's so many factors that go into this that aren't just willpower. So I'm not saying that anyone who has a drinking problem and goes sober could do this. Instead, what I'm asking more is how did you pull yourself out of it through hiking really?

[B]

Honestly? Yeah.

[C]

So up until you started the 80, you were drinking that heavily?

[B]

I wouldn't say that heavily, but still heavily. And then on the Atlantic, initially starting, I was. As soon as I would get into town, you know, I was like, I want to get a bottle of wine. Yeah, I was drinking.

[A]

And it's part of the culture there. It's part of the culture, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Were you doing more than the culture? Like, were your trail family members? Like, oh, he's the one that's going a little too far with all this?

[B]

I had three different chamleys on the at, so, no, not really. I. It just kind of stopped. It just kind of changed for me.

[C]

You think it's, like, time between towns,

[B]

T. No, no, I think it's time and space from the military and processing things that I had been through my life while I was out there on each section. Honestly, it really was.

[A]

So you weren't. You didn't feel the need to medicate yourself anymore? No, the trail was doing that.

[B]

The trail was doing it for me. Because you come upon a vista, right, and you see something, you're like, oh, my God. And you sit down and you contemplate life, you know, the meaning of it and everything that you've been through and what's going on, and you're on this tiny little planet in a small solar system, you know, I mean, just. It helped. Yeah. And it still helps to this day.

[A]

It's impressive. And I think maybe chance is alluding to this, that you were able to just naturally wean off of substance to that level. Because if drinking a bottle per day is like, that's a pretty serious amount.

[B]

Yeah, it's like a bottle. Maybe like a bottle and a half of wine. Some whiskey, A couple.

[A]

Okay. I mean, a bottle of wine is different than a bottle of whiskey. I'm not endorsing anyone.

[C]

Were there commas there, or was he talking about different days?

[B]

No, that was all wine.

[C]

Whiskey and a couple of beers is a lot. Zach's like, that's my Tuesday. We find out on this exact episode that Zach needs help.

[A]

No. Two glasses of wine now is enough for me to be hungover, unfortunately.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. My biology has made me not an alcoholic.

[C]

Well, one thing that I find very curious about that is, and you've heard it, too, you get so many people that want to do the atr, they want to do a hike because they're like, I have this mental to work out, and I'm going to work it out on trail. And they get on Trail. And they're like, I just met these cool people. They're my age. We're going to this town. We got this viewpoint for sunrise. And then they're at the. You know, they're at the Katahdin, and they're like, oh, I haven't thought through any of this shit I brought up to trail. Yeah, but you're saying that you resolved a lot of these things. Like, you. You almost are the correct me if I'm wrong poster child for the person that wants to go out there and do that. Because you said on every section of trail, you learned something or thought through something that you were working on, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How'd you do that?

[B]

I don't think it was intentional. I really don't. I think it just kind of happened, you know, while you're out there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You're walking every day. You know, you think about stuff. At least I did.

[C]

The person that's listening to this episode untrail, that's like, I have this that I need to deal with, but I don't want to, and I'm gonna put it off till tomorrow. Do you have any advice for them on how to get into, like, a zone that lets you think through it or where to start?

[B]

Yeah, turn. For me, personally, it's like, take the earbuds out and just zen, you know, just walk, be in touch, you know, and go into those places that you might not want to think about. Like, purposely think about that stuff while you're out there. You know, you have to do it while you're in your tent at night. You know, while you're hiking during the day. When you see a beautiful vista, take the time, you know, don't rush through it. I think a lot of people want to rush through the. Through hike, and there's nothing against it. Like, FKTs are awesome. Right? That's so cool. But I don't think they're trying to do it to resolve issues. They're doing it in their own personal regard because it's a challenge to them. Right. If you're out there to resolve issues, be intentional about it. Sorry, with the cord. Be intentional about it and take the time to do it. Because, like, you said, they get to Katahdin, they're like. Like, I didn't even think about anything while I was out there.

[A]

Yeah. I love that advice of take the earbuds out because, like, it's so easy nowadays to distract yourself. 24. 7, even.

[B]

24. Yeah.

[A]

Even on the.

[C]

I love putting off a hard thought. You know, you're telling me I have to work through tomorrow.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Honestly, that's why. So I started with. Through hiking, Right. And then I fell in love with mountaineering because I started to get into that world. And that's the reason I love mountaineering so much, is because when you're on some of these larger peaks, like, you are so zoned in mentally, it's the next step, the next breath. Where am I putting my ice ax? How am I hooking into the line? I mean, there is no room for. What was I doing last Tuesday? That or, you know, what's going on in the world.

[A]

Yeah. It's way more flow state. Almost like downhill mountain biking. Like, you have to be, like, you couldn't listen to a podcast if you wanted to. You have to be fully present.

[B]

You got to be zoned in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, mentally tuned in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and it turns my brain off, you know?

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Oh, it turns mine on. That's the bpr. BPR thought. If I'm. If I have nothing going on and I'm just let to think. Yeah, she thinks.

[A]

Yeah. But he's saying that, like, because he's so focused on every step, like, he doesn't have the space to even wander.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Are we saying the same thing?

[C]

No. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying my. I'm saying my brain doesn't work that way. I'm making it about me.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But in comparison of, like. And I appreciate that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like I said, that's cool. I can't do that. This is what my brain does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a very meditative state almost. Yeah. Pretty cool.

[C]

Zach's good at meditating, but not.

[A]

I wish I had that gene where, like, more extreme endeavors, like, really, like, brought me in. I have. I run a little bit more nervous and anxious than that. Or, like, I tend to get trapped up in, like, the anxious energy of the situation. Like, I have friends who, like, are pretty intense downhill mountain bikers, and, like, they've made me go with them being like, you're gonna love this. I hated it the entire time. It was like, every. Every second is like, don't die. Don't hurt yourself. I don't get the bliss that they are clearly experiencing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you're out when you're doing your summits.

[C]

That might be one of the most relatable things you've ever said.

[A]

It's just a different.

[C]

I've never been. Like, me and Zach are similar, except for right there.

[A]

No, I can find Zen, actually more so through hiking where, like. Yeah, I can literally just like go into a place where you feel like you're in a vacuum or something like that.

[C]

Yeah, I think that was what I was trying to say. When I get there, then I have all the really good thoughts because you're just like, you know, everything's just like clearer and whatever.

[B]

But yeah, and I loved what you said tonight. You do your best thinking on trail. Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

[C]

The notepad just gets filled sometimes it's like distracting to mileage because it's like I have to stop because I can't walk and not trip. But I have to write these thoughts down because if I don't, then poof, they're gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and so then it's just like the notepads filling of just ideas and it's like, do I care more about making the miles today or do I care more about, like, I'm having really good thoughts and like, productive thoughts and like cool ideas and I want to capture those before I forget them. I don't know. There's some sort of like mental. Like when you give a dog a sniff toy and they have to like, do brain work instead of physical work and it tires them out the same. There's some sort of reward there for my whatever brain I have in my head.

[A]

It's also good to get in the practice of actually jotting those things down because I think it makes you better at like being present and accepting your thoughts and actually engaging with them as opposed to just being like static noise in the background.

[C]

And the pros to doing it while hiking rather than driving because I drive back and forth from New York to Colorado a lot. Same type of Zen. Or like, after a couple hours, you enter that flow state, you start having ideas. I've got like a post it note on the. On like the horn part because it's just like sometimes you just gotta grab the pen and while you're watching, just like do what your hand can do without looking.

[A]

This is why Apple sucks. Because, like, if Siri was even remotely competent as an AI agent, like, imagine just being able to. To use voice memos and like, have it be automatically organized and cataloged and.

[C]

Do you want to hear the funniest story?

[A]

Sorry, we're completely sidetracked right now.

[C]

Wait, funny story about voice memos. So we had a call with the H Vac guy the other day because the H Vac guy for the new house is going to have to replace something, whatever, money. And I was just like, can you just call me and like, explain this to me so that I know which system does what, but explain it to me simply. I'm just a girl. And so he calls and I put voice memo on my computer because whenever I have those kinds of calls, I like to record it so that if I ever need to remember what's what, I can go back and play it. I forgot because we were going out, I forgot to hit stop record on the voice memo. It recorded, like, 48 hours of ambient sound of me and Gary just living our lives in our apartment. I had to instantly delete it because I was like, I can't go back and listen to these. But, like, I was in my office seeing singing Noah Khan, like, really cringy.

[A]

And you know that the FBI has access.

[C]

They do. If anything, it proves I'm not a threat.

[B]

The amount of actionable intelligence that the US Government gets from listening devices is utterly fascinating.

[A]

Yeah. I just hope you know that you can share here on the podcast if

[C]

someone is spying on me, a message to anyone from the government. If you're spying on me, can you at least, like, reach out and let me know? Give some input? Be like, hey, I saw you, like, rage, text texted your husband this on Thursday night. Here's my perspective.

[A]

You know, I think it's a bad spy tactic.

[C]

We could be. Yeah, but I. But not if you're. But not if your person isn't resisting. I'm not resisting. Yeah, but like, if you're. If you're, you know, Rachel over in whatever department they put on me, like, let's chat. You know, I can give you. I can give you some commentary that might, like, provide context if you need it. I'm not a threat. Yeah, but I'd love some, you know, outsider input.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Am I being unreasonable in these situations?

[A]

That's what they're there for, is to mediate your fight.

[C]

Come on, if you're gonna. If you're gonna stalk me, at least give me something back.

[A]

Agreed.

[C]

Right.

[A]

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[B]

Sure.

[A]

I'm curious as a drill sergeant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What were some of the things that tipped you off the most? Tipped, like pissed you off.

[B]

When a soldier leaves their weapon. Without a doubt. Yeah. Or they lose their weapon.

[C]

That sounds irresponsible.

[A]

That happens. People lose their weapon. You'd be surprised as someone that's forgotten.

[C]

Like, it's like summer camp.

[A]

Yeah. They're tent on trail when they forget their walkie talkie.

[B]

Yeah. I. So we. I'll one. One quick story. I know they're all, I'm sorry, we're going down rabbit holes.

[A]

This is what the podcast is.

[C]

He literally just asked. He said to bring us back to the rabbit. I thought I was asking too much about deployment and that he was gonna be like, hey, you gotta talk about hiking. But now he's like, let's go back.

[A]

The drill sergeant Persona is so interesting.

[C]

Oh my God. It's fascinating. We can just do this for three hours.

[B]

Yeah. So in Red phase, which is their first three weeks of training, right. They are monitored 24 7. Like they are never outside of the eyes of a drill sergeant when they go take a shower. Right. Like you get them in this room where they all undress, you get them in a line and then you run them through the shower. Like, because one there's heads on one side and heads on another side. So it's basically like a train that goes through. So they soap up on one side and then they wash off.

[C]

They have to take a running shower.

[B]

That's kind of like a running. It's more like a shuffle. Shuffle across. So they're all undressed. Right. They're standing there ready to go in. And I'm like, I know all of you want revenge for 9 11. That's why you signed up to serve this country, right? You want to go to war? This is what we do. We're the army. We fucking win. We fight America's battles. We raise our right hand to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. And they're standing there, right? And they're ready to go. And I'm like, but first we gotta get through the fucking shower. Now get in there.

[C]

You're like the maid of honor at a Bachelor Bachelorette of 30 year olds. It's like, guys, we still have to do this. Let's go. Why? What. What skill does it build to make them run while showering?

[B]

Oh, it doesn't.

[C]

With them.

[A]

It's just.

[B]

Yeah, being. Being uncomfortable. Getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.

[C]

Not to like, make them just like, listen to. I mean, I imagine there's some part of you just gotta not question and listen.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it's following orders, right? For sure. There's a. There's a portion of that. But then at the end of the cycle, the drill sergeant sit all the privates down, they're like, all right, tell me what you got away with this year and stuff like that.

[C]

No way.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

So you have to say it.

[B]

I mean, they, it's. It's full disclosure, right? You tell them, look, there's no repercussions. Yeah, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do anything. You won't get in trouble. Just tell me what you did. That way it's like the priest log. So you kind of like, you learn the next cycle what they were the hiding places for cigarettes and nicotine and all this kind of crap.

[A]

Amnesty, so you can be better policing.

[B]

Right? The privates they told, they told sat there and they're like, drill sergeant, do you remember that time that you marched us through the shower and you gave us that speech about 9 11? I was like, I don't sure. Whatever. They're like, we were so motivated that we would have ran through brick walls. That's.

[A]

That means you're doing your job. That's awesome.

[C]

Well, that was my next question is what's. What's some of the crazy shit they admitted to you?

[B]

They ordered a pizza one night and had it delivered to the barracks. Yeah, I found that one out. They snuck out the window and like, got the pizza.

[A]

Oh, man, the poor pizza delivery guy.

[C]

The overlap with hikers is staying strong. What else. What else did they do?

[B]

They hid nicotine, they had alcohol. Some of them had sexual intercourse in some areas of The Variks? Yeah.

[C]

Are they stuck in women or are they just like them and their friends?

[B]

No. What do you mean, like?

[C]

Well, it's a lot. It's a lot easier for the guy who's going through the Ten Commandments.

[B]

They're co ed barracks.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So like, females are on a different wing and then males are on another wing. It's really controlled. Like they're supposed to be locked in their bays at night so they can't do stuff like that. But every once in a while, I mean, people, they figure out the system.

[C]

Yeah, I was saying we're in a heat. They're already in the same barrack. If you watched Heated Rivalry, it's about hockey.

[A]

It's like softcore porn.

[C]

Yeah. It's a gay love hockey story. But they're already playing each other and they're already in the same camps and stuff. So it's just like, easier than sneaking an external person in.

[B]

Right, right, right. Oh, yeah, I'm sure there was that.

[C]

Definitely.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[A]

What percentage of people did you break in that three week period? Like, I imagine some people break all of them. You break to the point where they're like, I'm out of here.

[C]

That's what my next question.

[A]

I'm gay now.

[C]

Like, after this, like, after this shower incident, can I be like, I'd actually like to go home because at that. I don't like to shower to start. If you made me do that, I'd be like, I actually don't.

[A]

That's what gets Johnson to the army. You're making me shower.

[C]

Showers, I like. I prefer baths. I like to be. I'd like to be relaxed and this doesn't sound relaxing. Am I allowed to leave at that point?

[B]

No.

[C]

Why?

[B]

Because you saw you put your name on the dotted line.

[C]

What are they gonna do? They're gonna stop me at the door.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then where do they put me?

[B]

So if you left, you would be called absent without leave. Excuse me. Which is awol. Yeah, right. And then at that point, if you're longer than 30 days, there's a federal warrant issued for your arrest.

[C]

I thought it was just shame.

[B]

No, no, no. There's a. Yeah, there's a warrant issued for your arrest. Whenever you're picked up, like, say you get a, you know, stopped by a cop, they pick you up and they hold you there until somebody from the military comes in and brings you. And then they bring you to another, you know, duty assignment or location, and they out process you from there.

[C]

Damn wild. I thought it was just, like, you know, dishonor on you, your family, your cow mulan.

[B]

I mean, it's. It's seriously a contract between you and the government. You know, you said, yeah, I'll sign up for five years, and I'll do five years.

[C]

That's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What happens when people start to break and they're like, me, where? I'm like, I'd actually rather be at home. And they're like, you can't. And I'm like, what do you mean? Is there. Is that bad? Do you deal with that often?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, A lot. Sometimes you get soldiers, the recruiters tell them, don't take your meds.

[C]

What?

[B]

Yeah, because if you take your meds, like, you. You can't join if you're on certain medication.

[C]

Why? You're too stable.

[B]

No, I'm not a medical competent authority. I can't give all the wickets of why it is that way disclaimers at

[C]

the top of us to never take. Yeah, what is it? We're not doctors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't listen to anything we say ever.

[B]

But if they have, you know, like, bipolar, something along those lines, manic depressive. Right. But they want to join the army, but they can't because they're on that medication, the recruiter will tell them, just don't take your meds. Right. Don't take your meds. So you deal with that in basic training, and they come to you and they're like, hey, I'm actually, you know, bipolar, manic depressive, and I haven't been taking my medication, and I'm having, you know, thoughts of harming myself or harming others and.

[A]

Yeah. Well, how do you deal with that?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You chapter a man out.

[C]

What does that mean?

[B]

Chaptered is like, you send them home, you relieve them from their obligation to the United States government.

[C]

Got it.

[B]

And they get a discharge of whether general under honorable conditions. Most times, you know, not necessarily an honorable discharge, but. Yeah. I had a battle buddy, another former drill sergeant of mine that we served together with in one cycle. He's like, all right, privates, if you're cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and the recruiter told you not to take your meds, raise your hand. And he was like, go stand in the doorway. All the soldiers that raised their hand got him out that way, like on week one.

[A]

Oh. So even without, like, showing any symptoms or signs or anything like that, it's just. Wow.

[B]

It's also like recruiter improprieties, too, because they're basically telling you to lie and you lied on your application as well. I mean, there's so many things that you can go down there.

[A]

The.

[C]

Right. Are they getting commissions? Is that why.

[B]

No, no. But the stress level that they are under to get people to join the military is unique, I will say.

[C]

How do they. How do they fabricate it? Like, how do they create the stress without it being like a monetary. You either make your commissions or not.

[B]

No, it's the stress of their leadership above them that puts it on them to make quotas. So high school, right? Did you guys have recruiters come to your high school?

[C]

Probably so I think we. Ours did. I mean, they weren't looking at me.

[A]

I don't remember it.

[C]

If so, let's be honest. I wasn't the star pupil they were trying to go after, but.

[B]

Okay, but how many people from high school do you know that joined the military?

[C]

Ooh, how many people?

[B]

There you go.

[C]

I remember.

[B]

There you go.

[C]

Yeah, there's a handful.

[B]

So there's like a bucket, right? There's a bucket of how many people in the United States population that can serve in the military at any given time. Right. Between 18 and 14. Those are the ages. And you start pouring these things out of the bucket. Right. People that are going to college. Right. Okay, now it's a smaller bucket. People that have medical limitations or debilitating issues.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Physically, that's another bucket. When you really get down to the wickets of how many people can actually serve in the military, it's like less than a million at any given time. Right. And there's a million strong that are across the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Space Force, components of National Guard Reserve, active duty. Right. That is a very small pool of population. And now you have corporations that are vying for the best talent in our country. Right. Rightfully so. For things in AI and medicine and construction and engineering, that's an even smaller population. So it's like a war on talent to get people to join the military. Yeah, it's very hard to do.

[C]

It really is how they started the plot of Hail Mary.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Did you read that book?

[B]

I did not, but I want to go see that movie.

[C]

He had a gene that no one else had, but they had. And they don't even include that in the movie. But he had a gene that no one else had, so he was supposed to just be helping them, but then the person couldn't go. And then. Because he was one of the only people that had the gene.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It was like, who else are we gonna get?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, the Buckets narrow down so much by the time you go through

[B]

the criteria, by the time you get down to that base level, and then you're like, hey, do you want to sign up and go deploy, or do you want to stay at home, build a life, get a good job, have money? You know, which one are you going to do?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the. That's the reason for recruiting impropriety and my perspective. Sure. Right. And anything that I say on this podcast is not sanctioned by the any means. These are my own personal opinions.

[C]

This is not financial advice. We don't have medical degrees. We're not lawyers. We have no qualifications.

[A]

Just all the stuff. Everything you hear is wrong.

[C]

We've all walked a bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty good at walking.

[C]

Yeah, we're pretty good at walking.

[A]

Speaking of walking. Okay, I'm gonna go back to the at. Sorry. No, it's not you from your Trek blog. Yeah, this is us. I'm the one that derailed us. I pulled a story from one of your Trek blogs about.

[B]

I gotta apologize to this man. I. I wrote like, maybe three or four, and then I just. I stopped. I'm sorry.

[C]

You and I both, brother.

[A]

It's. It's so funny the number of people I get at trail days. Every year, they come up. It's like a dog with his tail between his legs. Being like, I'm a blogger, I haven't actually written anything for it. We don't put blogging requirements in for a reason. Like, I understand that hiking is hard enough by itself. You don't have to mandate a task on top of that. So, yeah, we just leave it there for the people that want to do it. But you actually. You had a decent amount of posts. I think you had like a dozen 15 posts. It wasn't nothing. Yeah, but one of the stories you had was that your Ursak froze to a tree in the Smokies.

[B]

Yes. That sucked, dude. So we. We went into the Smokies when there was bad weather. Right. And we knew there was going to be bad weather. So, number one, we screwed up to begin with because you never go in there when there's bad. Because you can get stuck once they close down newfound gap, I mean, that's it. You're in that park, which is so irresponsible, I think, from the National Park Service perspective as well. I mean, you literally could kill people because they can't get out of the park when there's bad weather.

[A]

Totally. You know, especially at that point, it's still you're fairly new into the through hike.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

From a through hiking perspective.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Not everyone there is even through hiking, like, obviously get a lot of weekend warriors and whatnot.

[B]

Sure, yeah. But at that. I mean. Yeah. So we had bad weather. It rained all one day, and then it turned to, like, snow and ice at night trying to stay dry. I think I was. Borderline hypothermia, you know, in my quilt. In a shelter with a fireplace that doesn't really radiate heat because the way they are constructed, the heat just goes straight up the fireplace and not reflects back into the shelter shelter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I woke up the next morning and had to grab my air sack, and sure enough, that thing was just, like, a whole sheet of ice on the tree. So I had to, like, chip it off and then eventually, like, cut a line off of it and then just re tied it. And I still use that same one today. It's like. Yeah. It's got duct tape around it now.

[A]

How much of the rope did you lose?

[B]

Not that much. Maybe like an inch or two off of it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because I just. I cut it in half and then ripped it and then just healed it back together with duct tape, if that makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. If memory serves, aren't there, like, bear cables at all the shelters in the Smokies?

[B]

That one didn't have one.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it didn't have one at that one. Or maybe it did and I just didn't use it. I don't remember. Yeah, because it was the shelter. It's the one right before Newfound Gap because we went over Clingman's Dome, and we're like, we have to get to this next shelter. Because that's when it really started raining and icing, sleeting. We got to that one, and we're like, that's it. We need to get out of here the next day. So we made it to Newfound Gap, got a shuttle out of there, back down into Gatlinburg, which I didn't want to. No one wants to go into Gatlinburg. Right. I mean, some people do. I'm not knocking it. Right. It's cool. But I think our plan was to go through the Smokies in one full push. Right. Because you have that permit system to. I think, what is it, like, eight days or something they give you to go through that thing?

[A]

Yes. It's different now than.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, whatever it was. So that we went down into Gatlinburg, and that was the first family that I was with. I met them at Springer at Springer Mountain Shelter the very first day. And we stayed together pretty much the whole time, all the way through the Smokies. And then they decided that they. They wanted to get off. Right. It just wasn't for them, which is totally cool. Understandable. So I hiked alone for a little bit, met up with another tramley, did pretty much the rest of the Virginia with that family or. No, I met them around Virginia and then did all of Virginia with them. Then went solo, probably like Maryland, all the way through Vermont. I was kind of solo, just hiking in and around people. One of my army buddies that I was stationed with met me in PA for a week, which was awesome to be out there with him. And then I met up with another retired Navy guy in New Hampshire and we ended up finishing together with another retired Navy guy that we met on trail. And. Yeah, so those are the three different tramlies that I had.

[A]

So how did your social experience on the AT compare to something like the military?

[B]

I thought it, you know, I thought it was pretty unique in the fact I didn't have a bad experience. You know, I met maybe one person that I was like, I probably don't want to hike around you.

[C]

You.

[B]

Right. I'm going to hike faster or slower than you, so I get away from you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But other than that, it was really interesting because a lot of vets, they're on the trail. Right, but then you also meet people that are like right out of college, right. Don't know what they want to take a gap year. Then you get the 30 year olds that are in their job kind of stuck. They. They want some other purpose in life. I think everyone out there is searching. They're all searching for the answers, right. Of what they need to do or what they want to do or what they have to do or what, you know, just, I don't know, emotionally, mentally. You know what I mean? Does that make sense?

[C]

Is it similar to what you'd get in, like the recruits?

[B]

Hell no.

[C]

Like when a new shop would show up.

[B]

No, a lot of them are doing it out of necessity, to be honest with you.

[C]

You think that's what made it where you were like, there was no bad experiences is because you're so used to having people that show up for different reasons.

[B]

Yeah, I think so. I think the fact that everyone was searching for the. I don't want to use the word truth. Right. That's so cliche. But there's. They're doing it for a reason, for a personal reason, whether it's the challenge or they had some type of life event that forced them to go, not force them, but chose that path. Right. They're all out there searching. It's a, it is a camaraderie level that I did experience in the military. That you do experience on trail, for sure, sure. You definitely get that. And within the community of interest, I think. Yeah, I mean, there's so much camaraderie across the board.

[A]

Did you find that you vibed better with former veterans as opposed to just the. I don't want to say average striker, because I don't know if there's a such thing, but yeah, I guess. Did you feel a tighter connection with

[B]

vets at that point in time? I think so, yeah. Yeah, because that was, it was so close, time and space wise to me getting out of the military. Now I, I don't feel that way anymore. But back then, yeah, like a guy redline that I hiked around with, he was a vet, you know.

[C]

So have you talked any of your vet friends into hiking?

[B]

Yeah, so I get people that'll call me or send me a dm. They're like, hey, I want to do this. You know, I was getting ready to get out and I talk to them on the phone, give them all the advice, you know, knowledge dump. Right. And then check back in with them maybe a month or two after they were supposed to start. And it's like, yeah, you know, this come up, life came up, you know, I just didn't. I. There are some that don't, you know, they want to do it, but I don't think they can do it for one reason or another. Whether it's physical, mental, money wise, you know, time and space wise. A lot of people, you gotta have the time to do it. I mean, I think that's the greatest resource in a through hike is time period.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not money, it's time.

[C]

Well, it's funny too, because you can't have the time without the money to have the time. You have to buy your time.

[B]

They're definitely correlated.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So you haven't convinced one single person yet.

[B]

No, unfortunately there's still time though. There is still time.

[C]

Still time though. Maybe they'll listen to this. I have had that happen too, where like campers, because I worked at summer camps will get into it and they'll know that I'm the one that's done it and they'll reach out and then, you know, they never go do it. I just start saying the same stuff or I'll point them to the Same places. But it is cool to see like how, like how you can go and experience something and be like, man, if you only just did this, you know, this will open up your eyes to a different perspective.

[A]

Was there like a singular moment where you recognized that you were healing on trail, that the trail was medicine for you? Like, was there a sunrise? Like kind of like the situation that you described in. Was it Qatar? I forget a rock? Yeah, yeah. Like, did you have a similar. A parallel experience?

[B]

I. There was. I don't. It was somewhere in Virginia and I was descending off of some climb or something. I just started. I don't. I don't know why, but I just started bawling. I mean, just straight on tears going down this thing. And it was like, it was acceptance of a lot of stuff. Throughout different periods. And it was. I think it was. Is getting to know me again, you know, because you take off a uniform and you're this person in that uniform and you don't know who you are when you're getting out of the military. For me, that was my experience, so getting to know me again. And yeah, it was healing.

[C]

You mentioned, was it the Ana or the Ama Ana? And you mentioned those guys and like having the thought of, geez, are any of them even still around? Which is such a dark thought to have to have. But are there any of these points on the trail where, I mean, that's one of the. That's one of the forks in the road that could go down from that time where you and them and their lives are paralleled and those could be the thoughts of, geez, are they even here anymore? And now you're standing on a mountain with a great view and you're only worried about the next town you have to get to. Is there any part of you that's just like, what the heck? Like, how am I here right now?

[A]

You know?

[C]

Yeah, it's juxtaposition is.

[B]

It's crazy. And that's what's so beautiful about life, I think, in general.

[C]

How do you process that though? Because those are. That's such a. That's such a jump in feelings where it's like, like, how do you process and accept that I did that and I'm here and this is really, you know, and other people aren't and you know, all of that, that just feels like so much to carry.

[B]

Yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot of acceptance, you know, it's like,

[C]

I

[B]

don't want to use the word fate, you know, or paths take you different places, right? And whatever the experiences that you go through at some point, whether they're bad or traumatic or whatever, you have to process them and you have to understand that that was the path, right. That you were on. And now it might be a different path. And that person back there helped you get to this path.

[C]

You know, was there a moment on trail or like I clock. I clock memories in my brain with like a picture. Like I remember this town by this picture in my mind of us sitting in, eating ice cream or whatever. Is there a moment or a view or a memory that you've clocked where you have, like looked at something or captured something in your mind and thought, like, I've done the work. Like, not just going into it being like, I have to process this stuff, but like, that warm, like, this is cool. And I've done the work.

[B]

Yeah. That was on. That was in the Wind River Range on the cdt. I. I was coming up, going to the Cirque to Towers, right. The high route, and I came upon this massive dinosaur sized freaking moose. I mean, this thing was huge. A bull moose. Massive rack, right?

[C]

Massive rack.

[B]

Massive. Wicked huge. This thing had to have been like a thousand pounds. It was huge.

[C]

Huge pom pom.

[A]

I was thinking cannons, but he was

[B]

maybe like a hundred feet away from. From me, right? Because I. He's over here on the trail and I'm coming up and he. We locked eyes and stared at one another, right? And he was staring at the sunrise. So when we locked eyes, he looked at me. He's like, yeah, I'm not worried about you.

[C]

Cool view, bro. Huh? Cool.

[B]

And then just went back and stared at the sunrise, right? So I sat down on trail for like 10 minutes and just. And just watched this thing.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

While he was staring at the sunrise coming up. And I'm like, like, this is an animal that's magic. That's watching the same beauty that I'm finding out here at the same exact time.

[C]

He locked eyes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

He was like.

[B]

He literally stared at me for like 10 seconds. He's like, yeah, I'm not worried about you. And he just went back.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

Sunrise. It was magical.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I bet you could see every detail when you think about it too.

[B]

I can. I can see his face. The. The rack, right, had so many different.

[C]

How could you forget the rack?

[B]

He was huge. I thought he was going to charge me. When he turned and looked at me, I was actually afraid, you know? But yeah, he just went back and stared at the sunrise. It's like, God, man, they see the same beauty that we see out here. Or maybe he was waiting to take a. I don't know. Who knows?

[C]

Yeah, maybe he can't even see the colors.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, dogs can only see yellow and blue, apparently.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so let me get some timeline. Right, at 23, you said you finished and you went straight to the Colorado Trail. Was that right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. What month did you finish the. At?

[B]

July.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, early. So you did it quickly.

[B]

Well, I started in February.

[A]

February. That's right.

[B]

Okay, so not that quickly.

[C]

So you did the Colorado Trail in 23 as well.

[B]

So I did a portion of it. Right. Had to jump off because the weather came in and then finished the rest of it while I was on the cdt, if that makes sense.

[A]

Got it. Yep. Yeah, makes sense.

[B]

And for full disclosure, I did 700 miles on the AZT. I had to jump off right before the North Rim because my pad busted.

[C]

We don't care.

[B]

And I had to go to Denali.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. At this point, it's exactly this point of the conversations. Are you ever, like, when it's like, oh, but I missed these 20 miles for you? Like, we don't.

[A]

We literally don't give a. Oh, yeah. We're not Internet trolls.

[C]

That's not something. We literally don't care.

[B]

I mean, there's so many trolls out there, though. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, but they're like. They're such a minority. They're just loud on the Internet because they have no one to hang out with, so they just sit on the computer all day.

[A]

I understand. We don't have to set the record straight, because someone out there is gonna be like, this guy's a phony. I missed 20 steps. I didn't cross the road or something.

[C]

I haven't stolen any valor from an AZT completer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you said you went to Ecuador after. Yeah, the CT section.

[B]

Yeah. That was such a great trip.

[A]

Trip.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me about Ecuador.

[B]

So did five volcanoes down there. It was my intro into glaciated mountaineering. Like high alpine. Right. We did Passachoa, Ruka, Pincha, Ilanitsa Norte, Kiambe, and then Trim Barrazo.

[A]

I'm very impressed that you're Hate to remember and pronounce.

[C]

Those are words, Zach. Repeat those words back.

[B]

Yeah. The two. Kiambe and Chimborazo. Chimborazo is like 20,000ft. And then Kiambe is actually the closest point to the stratosphere. It's not Everest. It's the highest point in the atmosphere because of the bulge of the Earth. Interesting, because Everest is at a different point on the earth. But K is near the equator.

[C]

Are we not a perfect circle?

[B]

No, no. I think it's like oblong.

[C]

Like an egg.

[A]

Not egg, but more egg like I guess.

[C]

Or maybe we just got like some bumps.

[B]

And there is a bulge though.

[C]

Bul that's our ass. Earth. Earth's ass is on this mountain. Wait, that's insane.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you get sunburned a lot more easily? I need this bottle behind it.

[B]

It's heavier like when you're there.

[C]

Cuz you're closer with the bulge.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

As long as you wear sunscreen, sounds

[C]

like it's still safe for me.

[B]

But yeah, that was a great trip.

[A]

So that was your entry into peak bagging or had you gotten into peak bagging in your time, your short time in Colorado here?

[B]

No, I think I started doing 14ers when I came back from the CD, the CT.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. I knocked out like Harvard beer stat. Del Calbron loop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, the easier Class 1, Class twos before I went down to Ecuador just to stay in shape, feel physically

[A]

like you needed to rest at all. Because I was ruined for like a month after the at, my body did

[B]

start to break down. Like my sweat started smelling like ammonia towards the end, which is a key indicator that you're burning muscle and no longer fat.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Is that like the beginning of rhabdo?

[B]

Yeah, it's the beginning of rabdo. Yeah. I would get done at the end of the day and I'm just like, God, I smell like piss. Yeah, it just smells.

[C]

What's rabdo?

[A]

It's short for gosh.

[B]

What is rabdiosis? I think it's like a breakdown of the muscular tissue.

[C]

Yeah, it smells like ammonia.

[B]

Yeah. When muscle burns instead of fat, like your body is burning it as fuel, your sweat will smell like ammonia.

[A]

Rhabdomylosis is a serious, potentially fatal condition involving rapid skeletal muscle breakdown, releasing toxic contents, myoglobin, electrolytes into the blood, which can cause kidney failure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So yeah, you were, you were pushing yourself hard so your body wanted rest and you were just not giving it to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How much of that is just like your military training just telling you to ignore any sort of painful signals. And how much of that is you psychologically trying to just put off any like sort of post trail depression?

[B]

Yeah, I think it was more psychologically putting off the post trail depression.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because I had heard about it. Right. And I didn't want to fall. I fell into the damn trap anyway, but I didn't want to fall into it. But I also knew I had that trip for Ecuador coming up, so I wanted to be in shape for that. Like, I was super jazzed to go down there and do some of these high peaks and get into, like, rope travel and using ice axes and crampons and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Quick as that. What was the word?

[B]

Rabdiosis. Is that what it is?

[A]

Rhabdomyosis.

[C]

You might have rhabdomyelosis. You might be a be observing, experiencing. You have it.

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

It's not like a. It's not like a cancer diagnosis. It's like an acute thing that happens if you experience. Exert yourself. Yeah.

[B]

A lot of crossfitters get rabdo.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But I had lost, like, 20 and 30 pounds towards the end of the AT. Right. And I just. I could not put on weight no matter how much food I. I'd crush two liters of Dr. Pepper, you know, in town.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Any two pizzas, you know, there's no way you can put on the weight at that point.

[A]

Yeah. So dealing with this post trail, did you have any other symptoms aside from the fact that, like, you smelled a way that sweat shouldn't smell? Like muscular.

[B]

Not muscular shame, but, like, inflammation. My knees started to hurt.

[A]

Yeah, that's pretty mild considering the fact that you might have been close to the rhabdo spectrum.

[B]

Could have been.

[A]

How much is that? Is that you just ignoring signals that your body is giving you? Because, like, I'm now to the point where if I work out hard two days in a row, like, I just am lethargic the third day. Like, my brain doesn't work as well. Like, I notice subtle symptoms of, like, when my body just needs recovery. And it's not necessarily like. Like a lactic acid buildup or something like that. Like, it's more subtle. Are. Are you in tune with your body to that extent, or are you just, like, pushing through it now?

[B]

I am.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Back then, I was so fixated on Katahdin. Yeah. You know, getting to the goal. I don't think it mattered what I was going through. I knew, listening to your podcast, I knew that you would lose weight. I knew that you would have, you know, inflammation or joint pain and things of that nature. Just pop Motrin, you know, and keep on going. I mean, that's not necessarily the right answer, but I also knew, though, if I had a serious injury, like, okay, you get One body in life, you don't want to F up that body to work, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like every, each individual has to make that own determination at some point on the trail because everyone's going to have injuries. Right. It's going to happen. It's just so. Yeah, yeah. I think it was more just fixated on the goal than anything, but now I definitely pay attention to those signs and signals. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

We also kind of planted the seed for your love of mountaineering, it sounds like is Ecuador. What, what planted that seed for you?

[B]

Yeah, for sure. Honestly, somewhat of the 80 too. Like when you go across some of those mountains, it's beautiful. Right. Being in Maine, being in New Hampshire and the whites, like that was my favorite part. Some of those climbs were just epic. And I, I say I became a summit junkie. Like I fell in love with summiting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Getting to the top and then you're on that flat portion or, you know, you're on the summit. Yeah. And that's what really kind of turned me into mountaineering. And then I was like, I want to do the seven summits too. You know, I want to go down this path and I want to do all the 14ers and I want to do this and I want to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like upping the adventure ante a little bit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because there is an adrenaline thing that's tied to it, I think as well. Right.

[C]

So is Everest on your list?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[C]

Have you question for both of you, and this isn't a trap, but have you seen the stuff on the news about.

[B]

Yeah, Icefall.

[C]

No, not the Icefall. There's always something on the news.

[B]

Whatever is.

[C]

But no, the. There were people that were like doing something to create the feeling of altitude sickness or doing something to create, to fabricate the feeling of sickness, to like extort money.

[B]

They were poisoning their food so that they can get flights back into Kathmandu and stuff like that.

[A]

Whoa.

[C]

Like, because you know how that when you go hike Everest, there's so many things that could make you turn back.

[B]

Like. Yeah, sure.

[C]

Fatigue, oxygen sickness. Like all the, like, there's literal diseases that you can get with that little oxygen. But they were doing something. And I don't know who they is and I don't want to say everyone, you know, but there's so many companies and guiding things and money making opportunities around this mountain where some portion of them were doing things like poisoning food.

[A]

Allegedly.

[C]

Allegedly. So that the people would like turn back or like not complete or would do Whatever. Where they would still make their cash.

[B]

It's like an insurance scam.

[C]

Yeah. This came out like this, like a month ago.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Well, I thought that when I saw your list, because I was like, I wonder if that, like, impacts the decision and not in, like, if you say no, I still want to do it. Like, the Internet's going to burn you on a stake, but in a. Like, I don't know. I, Like, I would be worried about. Here's the thing. When I ask this, I'm not worried about, like, if you're ethically a good person and, like, if you're going to answer right. So that everyone's like, yeah, yeah, you. I'm thinking more in like a. Do I want to risk getting poisoned?

[B]

Yeah. I think Everest is one of those mountains because it's so commercialized and there's so many opportunities for things of that nature to happen. Like, you do not want to go cheap on that mountain. Like, you want to invest the capital to where you go with a reputable guiding company that you know those things are not going to happen.

[C]

Do you have the capital?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, you already have it. Like, in like an account?

[B]

Not right here with me.

[C]

Yeah. No. You're not carrying a briefcase.

[B]

No, no, no.

[C]

But that would. That would be a fair question of, like, are you like, do you have like an active. Because people say they want to do the AT and 2030 and it's like, great. If you need 6 to 8K to do the trail on average.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Do you have that? No. Okay. Do you plan on having that? No. Okay, great. Do you think you're going to do it in 2030, then? Yeah, because, I mean, realistically, we can want all we want, but the math.

[B]

Math, yeah.

[C]

So that's the big thing about Everett Everest.

[B]

Everest is really the. The financial. Yeah. That one. Invincine massive in Antarctica. That one is extremely expensive, too.

[C]

Okay, follow up. Did you save the money specifically for Antarctica or do you just have like a padded savings account?

[B]

A little bit of both. A little bit of both. But I have a steady income stream from being retired from the military.

[A]

My understanding the military pension is.

[B]

Yeah, it's not bad.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I promise I'm getting somewhere. Do you have a year you want to do Everest?

[B]

2028 is what I'm looking at.

[C]

Okay, here's the point. Do you have any advice that you can give?

[B]

Because this is saving money.

[C]

Imagine the overlap of. I have this hike I want to do. It's not in the near future. A lot of people that live in the pays and sunsets world, like they don't have the expendable income to save several years ahead. They're trying to save for like whatever's this winter.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How do you, how do you keep those bigger picture goals and do that delayed gratification and stick to it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

24 years in the military.

[C]

Okay. I imagine he might have something more thoughtful. I'm leaving room for something work, unique insight.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Just tell me that you just get paid a lot from the military and I'll shut up.

[B]

It's a little bit of that.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But for someone. Okay, but you know what?

[C]

I'm never going to do the military. So that's a leg up you have. And like some might call that. Well, no, some might not. But you could say that that's a privilege you have that I don't. But also you couldn't because I'm not willing to do that to get that privilege. So maybe there's a. There's a part of effort there.

[A]

Privilege is a very bad privilege.

[C]

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It's not the right. It's not like you were born into it.

[A]

Yeah, but he put his life in harm's way.

[C]

I don't mean it that way. I'm gonna get fucking. I don't mean it that way.

[B]

How about this though?

[C]

No, don't cut me off yet. I gotta redeem myself first. I mean this in a way of he has put in this work and he has put in this sacrifice and he has put in his like, his life and like possibly his mental health and all his body and everything into this thing. I'm not taking that away. And now he's reaping these rewards of it. Which isn't to say that he's reaping these rewards willy nilly. I would never have done what he did to get to this point. And I don't deserve the rewards he has because I haven't done what he has done to get to this point.

[A]

You're doing a good job of covering your tracks.

[C]

I don't mean privilege in that way. I'm not covering tracks. I'm just trying to explain what I'm saying. I don't mean it in that way. I'm saying it in a way of. He has these avenues open to him now that I don't. And I'm not saying that in a way of he doesn't deserve those avenues or that I deserve the avenues to. No, I'm saying that that's not something that I'm. That's not something I'm holding. I'm asking, when he's saving for something like this, is there something that you can translate to the regular person in terms of a methodology or a mindset or a delayed gratification that doesn't have to do with that. Not in that it's a privilege that he didn't earn. But that is something that most other people, when we go through the funnels you said of you filter out for mental health and all these other things other people might not have access to, whether because they're too like me. I'm talking for myself here. I'm fucking too bitch to do it. I'm not going. Oh, you're not putting me overseas with a gun in my hand. I. I don't know where to. I don't. I can't. Right. So for someone like that who acknowledges I could never do what you did, or for someone that just hasn't, or they're at 40, you know, whatever. I think you have mindset tips. Well, you know what? If you're gonna give me some for it, I'm gonna have to clear my tracks so people know I don't hate hard work.

[B]

Josh loves hard work, by the way.

[C]

Love hard work.

[B]

I would say you gotta do that

[C]

these days, though, or someone's gonna just, you know, like we're gonna start burning witches again.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

My God.

[B]

To answer your question, maybe be for advice of people that don't have the capital to do it right. For a through hike for saving up. Little. Little gains become big gains over time. So maybe skipping a coffee once a day every day. Right. If they're a big coffee drinker and putting that money into a savings account.

[C]

Do you have an auto set up, like an auto contribute where weekly it pushes something into something or are you skipping a coffee and instantly transferring that $5?

[B]

I do not have an auto setup.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

But that would be a good.

[C]

I would recommend that too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

We've had betterment on as a sponsor and they're like a high yield savings account. I don't know. They're probably not. They're not still sponsoring us. But it's a high yield savings account and you can auto contribute a certain amount a week.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like I'll put like 5, 10 bucks in like a hiking fund.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And then I know if I don't get the coffee, the money's going. Because the mindset is like, if you get the. If you get. So what if I don't get the Coffee. I'm gonna spend the five bucks on something else. Right, so you said it up so that it doesn't. Yeah, I don't know. I just was thinking tips like that where someone could replicate or take advice from it. My God, Zach. Zach's triggered me. I've come too far to get canceled.

[A]

Zach, you're not getting canceled. You're not getting canceled.

[C]

No, they can try.

[A]

I just was just being particular about the word choice with privilege because.

[C]

And I was backtracking. As I said, this isn't the word. Yeah, but it's something like this word. We were finding it together.

[A]

We're on the same page.

[B]

To your point, I am very. I am super fortunate to be in the position that I am to have a steady income stream, a good body, physically, to be able to do all this stuff.

[C]

Yeah, but you're also super fortunate to walk out of a military van that got exploded by screws that a person put apparently, into something by hand. Yeah, right. Like, yeah, you're super fortunate, but, like, at what cost? That's what I'm trying to get across is I'm not just being like, hey, you got a leg up. You know, it's like, I had. I had a soft 20 years, and you had a hard 20 years.

[B]

No, life's hard for everybody. Yeah, I don't think there's anyone that's got an easy one.

[C]

No, I'm gonna stay silent for a bit. Zach, I have another question. You can't get me canceled right before.

[A]

No one's canceling me.

[C]

Zach's trying to cancel me so that it looks better for him.

[B]

Jesus.

[C]

Come on. Bite on that. Bite on it.

[A]

I'm not gonna bite on anything right now. Yeah, I'm trying to cancel you, Josh. That's exactly what's happening.

[C]

No one's gonna believe it.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Hey, today's May 4th, by the way. May the fourth be with you.

[C]

May the fourth be with you and also with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It always reminds me of the peace be with you. Do you ever go to church?

[B]

I grew up Catholic.

[C]

Like, the peace be with you and also with you. Did they do that there?

[B]

I. I don't go to church anymore.

[C]

I was Presbyterian. Take it away, Zach.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm curious to know. You said like the seed had gotten planted for mountaineering. And I guess we're foreshadowing, I think, where your current interests are primarily. Like, why was the CDT next? Had you already committed to the CDT mentally and you just wanted to like chip away at the Triple Crown? Or were you wrestling between pursuing peak bagging as like your primary mode of travel or adventure? Yeah, walk me through next steps.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's just, it's a personal goal. I, I wanted seven Summit Triple Crown, finish all the Colorado 14ers, which finished all the 14ers. Got one more trail to do for the Triple Crown. I want to do the CTT CDT after the at because I've heard so many beautiful things about the pct. I want to save that one for last.

[C]

It's the best reason you could get

[B]

people on the AT that had already done the pct. They talked so much shit about the at. They were like, this trail fucking sucks.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, the PCT was so much better, you know, So I had heard that and I knew that the CDT is its own beast. It's its own animal. Embrace the brutality. Right? But I was allured to the fact of also choose your own adventure. And with the draconian follow the white blaze on the at, I kind of wanted to choose your own adventure one. So I went to the CDT next.

[C]

Did you hold on to the any of those, like 80? I don't think everyone that goes on in the 80 is a purist in, like, a continuous footpath kind of way. But I think people learn what through tight, what through hiking is on trail. And when you're learning what through hiking is on the at, you learn that that's the way. Right. Did you go to the CTT cdt? Oh, my God. I just called the same thing here. Did you go to the CDT with any of those learned beliefs, and how did you modify or adapt to them?

[B]

Yeah, I went in with the learned. It was the. The continuous footpath belief. Right. But I also went in understanding, look, there might be fires, there could be water crossings that can't, you know, go over. So the leeway of being able to complete the trail but safely, because I didn't want to put myself in harm's way. But I also went in with the choose your own adventure. Right. Look at the map. Figure it out. Is there another route that goes over this mountain? Can you go this way? Can you go that way? Can you connect this trail to that trail? Like, I just love the flexibility of it, but trying to keep the connected footpath at the same time, if that makes sense.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And the CDT for me felt like a bunch of section hikes, if I'm being honest, because I had to get off for a certain period. I had to get back on for a period. I had to get off for a period. I was. I originally had the thought process of going from New Mexico to Colorado, the border, flying up to Glacier, and then going back sobo so I could finish in Colorado, because I live in Colorado. Right. I did that. But then when I went up to Montana, I had a cool family member pass away immediately when I got to Glacier. So I'd fly back out of there and then salvage, you know, the rest of the hike. And then I ended up going nobo anyway, so it didn't really matter, but. Yeah. Does that.

[C]

Yeah. So I did the PCT first. And so I hiked a lot in the beginning with people that did the at. And I think, because that was like, the learned, this is right and this is wrong. There is always like, a. Like the fat woman's finally singing moment where it was like, something's got a break or something's got to give here. And I've seen a lot of people go through a really hard time either not able to come to terms with that and I'll come back next year kind of way.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Or a I've got to adjust my mindset kind of way. It sounds like you came into it with a lot more not self confidence, but lack of maybe self doubt in your own decision making.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's just making peace with, hey, the through hike is for you, what it wants to be for you. I mean, you don't have to follow anyone's freaking rule. If you get what you want out of the through hike, then that's. That's your through hike.

[C]

You think that confidence comes from the military?

[B]

I think it comes from just not giving a what people think, to be honest, Zach.

[C]

I mean, that might come from it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because that's something where I care about what people think.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I just spent five minutes defending something that baited me on, you know,

[A]

to the military point. People are often intimidated by the cdt. Like I feel like the ego at PCT cdt. So you can like gradually level up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I imagine going through the. That you've seen in war makes something like dealing with a thunderstorm above tree line feel not quite as scary.

[B]

No, it's still scary.

[A]

Is it?

[B]

Yeah. Because I mean, war, it's different, you know, it's, it's, it's. Yeah. I remember going over Monarch Pass and seeing some dark ass clouds and it started hailing and every fiber in my body told me to turn back. Like, this is a very bad idea to be doing this right now. And I was scared for sure.

[A]

Turn back?

[B]

Yeah. No, I kept going.

[C]

Is there a difference? And tell me if I'm going too deep on this, but is there in exactly what Zach just said, is there a difference in those let's put them next to each other experiences where one is aiming for you and one is not? This one's nature and it's just doing nature. And one is like, you're the objective. Is there any part of that that. Because you're saying it's the same, but one's aiming for you and one's not. That surely changes things. No.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And like the. I. Yeah, that's how it feels. Okay, so the other, the other one that's aiming for you, it feels really confined and close. Right. When it's nature, it feels big and large and that there's ways to navigate through there.

[C]

Does that feel safer?

[B]

It feels safer.

[C]

So you less scared in those moments than the other hikers around you, do you find?

[B]

Yeah, I think so, yeah. Because it feels really constricted.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like you have only one certain way that you can get out of that situation.

[C]

Do you think there's a way for other hikers to learn those skills besides going through what you went through.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. That's a really good question. I. Man. Yeah, I think you can. I think it's in everyone. I really do. How? Ah, you got. You gotta push the line sometimes. I think you gotta get out outside the comfort zone for sure.

[C]

In what way, man?

[B]

Damn it.

[C]

You're being so vague.

[B]

Yeah, I know. I. I don't know. Honestly.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I mean, I think.

[B]

But it's a very good question.

[C]

Yeah, it's very thoughtful, but you also don't need every answer. You know, you're not like, who's a person that knows everything?

[A]

According to some commenters, that's me.

[C]

You're not Zach Davis. God, that hurt to say. Don't clip that one.

[A]

No, no, no, no. They don't think I know everything. They think I think I know everything. Very, very, very different.

[C]

Well, I was thinking like a Confucius or like, you know, someone who, like, knows all. And you said you sure. Very cocky.

[A]

Well, you missed the point there. So, favorite stories from the cdc?

[B]

The moose one for sure, man. Glacier National Park. A bear took a huge ass shit like, right by this vista as you're going up through one of the passes. I mean, it was right on the middle of the trail, which I thought was pretty cool because he had an awesome view while he was taking a dump. What's that?

[C]

We call them poaves plus poaves. Poops with a view.

[B]

I've never heard that.

[C]

My friend will text me on trail and she'll be like, I had a great POV this morning. And I'm like, what did it look like? And she'll send me a photo. I'll take. If it was a great. If it was like one of those long ones that don't break sender. You know, I read the.

[A]

Sean's just signing up for something she does. No idea what.

[C]

She's my friend.

[A]

Okay, listen.

[C]

The guy that sent me that dick pic. What is. Last year, the year before. I tried so far. I tried so fudgeing hard to find his mom. And I promise anyone I will try equally as hard. And I'm usually really good at it. I still.

[A]

The level of disappointment from a mother of someone that sends their shit is different than their.

[C]

But you know what? I still have his dick saved on my phone. Guy could run for president. I've got your dick saved on my.

[A]

Probably not have.

[C]

No, I'm going to. You sent it to me. I've got the context text. I've Got the chat. I've got the dick. I've got it all saved on my phone. Send me your penis unsolicited.

[B]

I really wish that I had a good poop story, because I know you love the poop story.

[A]

I do.

[B]

I don't have a good poop story.

[C]

Any peace stories?

[B]

Peace stories?

[C]

Yeah. Any bodily function stories?

[B]

No. No, I don't.

[A]

Any wet dreams?

[C]

Yeah. Have you had any wet dreams, Andrea? How many socks do you carry?

[A]

Chance learned about wet dreams during. Yeah. On this podcast.

[C]

No, I didn't.

[A]

We're gonna find the.

[C]

I learned what wet dreams were on this podcast.

[A]

I'm pretty sure you did.

[C]

I guarantee the person did not call it a wet dream.

[A]

He probably knows during a guy. I think it was during guy stuff.

[C]

Well, he probably called it something else. I know what it would.

[A]

Nocturnal. Well.

[C]

Well, okay. A nocturnal emission for using science words. If I use the Latin for a blue jay, would you know I was talking about.

[A]

It wasn't. It wasn't the term that you were in awe of. It was the act itself.

[C]

Well, maybe it was more frequent than I thought. You know, there's. There's user error.

[A]

Now I have to go back and listen to an old episode, which is what I don't want to do.

[C]

No, we don't want to do that.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Back to the question.

[C]

So did you want to talk? I guess.

[B]

No. No, no, no, you're good. I think I've talked enough.

[A]

Yes. Edt.

[B]

I think I was being stalked by a mountain lion. I'm not positive I'm. But okay, so the signs were. I saw mountain lion tracks all along the snow and in the mud. When we were in this one section, I think it was from Lincoln up to right before the bob. Right. And one day, on a ridge that was above me, going across the trail, I could hear this chirping sound, which could be birds. Right. But that's also a mountain lion sound that they make. And I'm almost positive that one was stalking us. Yeah.

[C]

What do you say to the naysayers that say they aren't in New England?

[B]

Yeah, they're out there. I'll say that.

[C]

You think?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, they're definitely out. And I will say, from what I've been told, when a mountain lion feels comfortable enough to let you see. Wants you to know that it's stalking you. Here's your question.

[C]

Ghosts, aliens, mountain lions in New England. Where do you rank them on terms of real?

[B]

Ooh, aliens. Number one.

[C]

More real than mountain lions in New England.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Had any encounters?

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[C]

What comes next? Ghost or mountain lions in New England.

[B]

Probably mountain lions in New England.

[C]

Okay. More real than ghosts.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Guess you haven't had any ghost encounters, then.

[B]

I. Well.

[C]

Oh, great. Yes.

[A]

Wait, so you believe aliens love ghosts, and you've only seen ghosts or interacted with. I don't know what the expression is.

[B]

Yeah, well, I was high. I mean, my vinegar. Who knows?

[A]

Is there a story there?

[C]

Yes, and we're gonna hear it. You can't date.

[B]

I was, like, 16. This is so long ago.

[C]

It doesn't matter. Tell us.

[B]

Oh, God.

[C]

You can't bring it up.

[B]

So I was sitting. I was a very unruly child. I'll be honest with that. I was smoking marijuana, sitting on this. On the roof outside my window of the house that we were in. And I saw this dude, like, in an old. Like, almost an Abraham Lincoln top hat type kind of thing, walking at the back of our yard.

[C]

Where's the window? Where in the geographic world are we?

[B]

North Carolina.

[C]

Oh, where you were saying in Fayetteville.

[B]

Yeah. Charlotte. I grew up outside of Charlotte.

[C]

It.

[B]

Okay, yeah.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And so I saw this figure, like, walking in the back. Right. Didn't think anything of it. I was like, man, this some good. You know, it's got me seeing stuff. And then later on, I learned that the house next to us had an apparition that was supposedly in the house. And they paid, like, a seance or I don't know what it. You know, to sage the house to get rid of the spirit. And apparently that might have been the spirit that was, like, wandering.

[C]

Now, the Etsy witch was like, it might have been Abe Lincoln. Like, they.

[B]

No, no, no. Definitely wasn't Abe Lincoln. But he, like, wore an old, like, 1890s or 1860s, like, garb like that. Like, that's why he was dressed in.

[C]

The best part of that answer. It definitely wasn't Abe Lincoln. No, I saw him real well, and I can tell you one thing. It wasn't him.

[A]

Yeah. So I have a ghost story and a celebrity encounter, and they're all the same story.

[C]

But I believe in those less than. I believe in mountain lions on the East Coast.

[A]

And aliens.

[C]

And aliens. Well, aliens. I mean, we all believe them today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I still don't know if it was real. I mean, it could have just been the hashish, you know, who knows?

[C]

But it could. It could not have been.

[B]

Could not have been. Yeah. But I've never seen an alien. But my logical senses tell me that the universe is too Vast and too large for this to be the only life that. That's out there. It's just, I think that's not the question. The question is, can other intelligent life travel to our star.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And interact with us in the same time span that we're consciously aware of the universe and what's going on. That's. It's a factor of time and like distance. Can I ask you, does that make sense?

[C]

Yes. Can I ask you a question that Zach cannot say anything or look that way. I don't even looking at him during this. Who do you think would win in a fistfight? Zach or an alien? This is a contentious topic.

[B]

On the topic, are we talking a reptilian or like a gray?

[C]

You're a mysterious, vague alien. The what if? Don't talk. Well, what do you mean? Well, an alien. Well, so it's not your ideal alien.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. The issue is, let's say an alien that's traveled to Earth.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think that's an important distinction.

[C]

Okay, fine. Zach versus an alien that's traveled to Earth. Don't look at him. He's going to try to look at you and put.

[B]

Who could win the fistfight?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Zach or the alien? I mean, I bet on human life no matter what. You know, like, I'm pro human, like.

[C]

Yeah, you men are all the same. He's got the aliens, got intelligence and other things.

[B]

Telepathy. Yeah, supposedly.

[A]

No offense, but so does Stephen Hawking.

[C]

Whatever. You'd be on my side there.

[A]

Yeah. My, my logic with the alien fight, and specifically one that is smart enough to travel to Earth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is that evolution is going to select for the intelligence traits and leave the monkey. I mean, we're assuming they're coming from monkeys, but like, strength is not going to be the attribute that is a self selecting feature here.

[C]

He's gonna know all your pressure points. He's just gonna goose for by you at the right moment.

[A]

It's gonna be like a worm thing that I just snap in half.

[C]

Yeah, you're just gonna.

[B]

You know, that's so. It's so interesting you say that because I remember listening to this radio program in the 90s growing up in North Carolina. Right. And they had this guest on this rock radio station that supposedly had inside knowledge of everything. And he said aliens tell us that. That physically we're the most advanced, but mentally we're kind of far behind.

[C]

What about gorillas?

[A]

About gorillas?

[C]

We're not more physically advanced than gorillas. They could pinch the death out of

[A]

Us, we've evolved from something similar to a gorilla. We've gotten less strong. That's the whole point.

[C]

That is the no world.

[A]

That's the whole point.

[B]

Johnson, have you watched Chimp Empire on Netflix?

[A]

It's so good.

[B]

Oh my God, really good.

[C]

I need a new show and like

[A]

cry at the end too.

[B]

It's utterly fascinating. No. 1 season, about four or five episodes. And I read recently the article, what's going on in NGO right now between the east and the west clans. They're starting to do infanticide.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

They kill babies.

[C]

Oh, apparently we do that on Epstein Island. I'm leaving the podcast. I can say anything I want. I just texted.

[A]

If you want more infanticide, talk patreon.com.

[C]

here's the thing is between now and June, I'm just going to slowly spiral. Cuz what's like.

[A]

I think we're there. We're getting closer to the bottom of the drink.

[C]

It's a win win. Because for you, you get great content out of this, right?

[A]

I mean, I think we've been spiraling for eight years. If I'm being perfect.

[C]

I know, but this is risk free content for you. You're like, ah, she's gone anyway, right?

[A]

For me, she's on her way out.

[C]

For me, I'm just experiencing every feeling I feel with everyone. And what does it matter? I'm going to retire into a sunset with a white picket fence.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like find me.

[A]

You still have to send me photos of the house, by the way.

[C]

I will.

[B]

That's how I retired too.

[C]

I gotta close too.

[B]

White picket fence.

[C]

Do you. You have an actual. It's white.

[B]

Pink. No.

[C]

Reminds me of brown, but I paint it. But in my mind it's. Yeah. I kind of like the wood feel. I just like the image of the white picket fence. I'm off to what I've been telling everyone. This is processing part five. I don't care. We're in the middle of an interview again. She's. She's making it all about her. I've been quiet quitting to Garrett, which is. You know how people quiet quit at their jobs where they're like, slowly just like checking out and leaving their jobs?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Not what I'm doing. I love my job. I've been quiet quitting to Garrett, where I've been like pitching my case for. This girl should not work at a corporate job. She shouldn't. She's. She's just. She belongs in the flowers. She belongs in the vegetable garden. She belongs in the woods. Don't make her do that. And so I've been trying to do that. And that's where I'm chasing the white picket fence too, is a world of just doing what I want when I want. Reading my little books.

[A]

I was gonna say have a kid, but that's not.

[C]

Yeah, that's gonna. So that's Garrett's counter is I can't be a stay at home mom without a kid. And I do see where he's coming from there.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Hyper is my child too though.

[B]

I DM'd you on one of your stories about Harper to get sponsored for chewy.

[C]

Did I not answer you?

[B]

Yeah, you did.

[C]

Oh, I did. That's very good of me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're like, haha, that's hilarious.

[C]

Yes. Another rave review. I've been avoiding the Internet. Back to you.

[A]

I want to talk peak bagging now.

[B]

Yeah. You guys had a guest on. He had done all the traverses with a full freaking pack.

[C]

He.

[B]

He did all the Colorado 14ers.

[A]

Was this the one that rode to each summit too, on his bike?

[B]

No, that was Killian Jornette. This other dude.

[A]

No, I was thinking of Simone for a shot.

[C]

Zach, name that guest.

[A]

I just did.

[C]

He said.

[A]

No, I said Justin Simone.

[B]

It might have been Simone because he was like. He did Little Bear Blanco Traverse with like a full pack on. I can't even imagine doing that. Yeah, I did the Travert, but I can't imagine doing it with like a full pack. It's crazy.

[A]

The other one might be.

[B]

Have you had Killian Jornet?

[A]

No. It'd be a good get.

[B]

He would be an awesome get. Yeah. Yeah. I'd be interested to hear his story for sure. Like because he rode from all the 14ers. Pretty sure.

[A]

Justin Simone.

[B]

It might. That might be him.

[C]

You know what confuses me about that name is my friend Deadpool that I hiked with on the 80s is John Simonetti. So I hear that name and I think it's the same person. I'm like, he didn't do that.

[A]

Fact checking myself right now.

[C]

We'll kill time while he does. How's this going for you? Is it living up to your expectations?

[B]

It's pretty cool. It's fun.

[C]

Above or below what you thought it would be?

[B]

Definitely above. Yeah.

[C]

Who's. Who's impressing you more? Me and Zach.

[B]

Both.

[C]

Both.

[B]

Both are impressing me. I mean, as a thru hiker.

[C]

Listen, you found it.

[A]

We're getting close.

[C]

Okay, go back to complimenting us as a through hiker.

[B]

Like listening to the podcast some of you have the most important. I want the most famous people in the community space. Like Peg leg, you know, quadzilla. Like, you have the people on. So just to be sitting here, like, in this chair right now, chatting with you, like, you're literally. I could touch you if I. Like, you're right there.

[C]

You can touch me. Please touch me. Touch me. Touch me. Touch my arm. There's no part of you that just. Like, I was deceived. This is just a girl in a chair with no windows.

[B]

No, no.

[C]

It goes through my mind.

[A]

Justin Simone rode his bike, too, and then hiked the summit of all 58 named Colorado.

[B]

Okay, so he did do it.

[C]

Did you name that? You got him?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I think you gotta take a shot.

[C]

I do, and I will. I'm spiraling.

[A]

Yeah. I'm impressed by myself that I got that, because memory is not a strong suit.

[C]

I think I'm gonna drink alcohol on every episode we have until we're done.

[A]

How many is that gonna be? A little while.

[C]

No, no, no. Every episode till the end of June.

[A]

That's what I'm saying, is, like, that we might be.

[C]

That's not.

[B]

Rachel, how do you like this?

[C]

How many do you think it's gonna be?

[A]

Maybe like six.

[C]

He hands me the cup.

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[C]

Actually, once we. Once we quantify this, there's a countdown, and that's gonna really trigger me.

[A]

The problem is it's a moving target.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's not that many of these.

[A]

Not that many left.

[C]

God. I'm gonna spar to the audience, to the listener. You've been here with me for nine years. I apologize for me making things about me so often in all of this. I am just. In my defense, I'm coping in real time, and you're getting this from me. And I could do this behind the scenes and not do it in front of you and come here all prim and proper, but you have always seemed to enjoy my hardships, so why would I keep this one from you? That's what I think. Like, I could have a bad time in the back and, like, be like, oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, don't be stoic at all.

[C]

And then come here and be like, for appearances. I'm gonna be great. They don't feel they want to hear what I rub.

[A]

You got the full spectrum of stoicism.

[C]

I just. I need to put in that quick disclaimer of, like, I get it. I know I keep bringing things back to myself. I'm sorry. I don't mean to do it. It's not usually me. I just. I'm on my mind a lot late lately because this is big for me and I keep bringing things back to myself and I'm sorry, we're all processing. This is the segment that we're recording that is going back to the same segment over and over, which is processing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And unfortunately, it doesn't just stay contra constrained to the segment. Sections.

[A]

Yeah, we're still going to get to the segment where I try to talk

[C]

you out of all consuming.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You can't talk me out of it, though, because I love Garrett. I would never hold him back from his dreams.

[A]

You're at least gonna have to make a decision here after the segment.

[C]

Yeah. Okay, great. She's my husband,

[B]

so PE back. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. So what time span did you do all of the 14ers?

[B]

Less than two years.

[A]

That's fast.

[B]

I. It could have been faster.

[A]

I mean.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. It was a decent amount of time. Yeah, it was fun. Yeah. I think my progression was. It was adequate for me because I'll be honest, like, class three and class four did kind of freak me out when I first started doing them. Exposure particularly. But I think after I did the El Dionte Wilson traverse, I told myself, like, just because I was airborne right. When I was in the military, and when you jump out of the plane, you're in the harness. Like, you. I don't know, there's just a feeling of being in that harness and like floating down to the ground. And I was like, just tell yourself you're in a harness and there's no exposure. And that's what I started telling myself, and then it just. It got me through.

[A]

So do you not have exposure issues at all now?

[B]

Not now.

[A]

It's a good superpower to have.

[B]

Yeah. But I did. I. I did have them when I was first, like, getting into the different classes, for sure. Yeah.

[C]

You jumped out of planes.

[B]

Yeah, When I was in the army.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

My brain says the armies on the ground and the Navy's in the sky, and the Marines are in the water.

[B]

Navies armies on the ground, Navy's in the water. Marines do everything.

[A]

And then the Air Force.

[B]

Air Force is in the sky, which is your backyard. Yeah. Yeah. But the army, to rapidly build combat power behind enemy lines, you got to have airborne capability.

[C]

So you jump out of planes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Shut up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you fold parachute?

[B]

Whoa, what's that?

[C]

Did you fold her on parachute?

[B]

No, those are rigors. I don't with that. What does that mean a rigor is a specific military occupational specialty within the army. That. That's their job.

[C]

All they do who does it like I. When I went to the four.

[B]

Yeah, they're a bunch of potheads. I know. But every. So what I've been to. I don't know if this is true or not, but what I've been told is to be a rigger. Every once in a while, they will just pick a chute that you've rigged. You don't know which one, and they tell you to go jump with it.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, that's a great way to do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Do they tell you who did it? Is it like today? Is this by Orion? And you're like, no.

[B]

But I became certified as a jump master too, which you, like, inspect the parachute system on the soldier. You know, you inspect all the gear. You go through all the. There's like 190 steps and things that you have to look at and stuff. And if there is a issue with the parachute, you call rigorous. And they'll come over and they'll like, they'll, you know.

[A]

How often did you find something wrong with a pack shoot?

[B]

A minor malfunction you find quite often because soldiers there's.

[C]

In the air. On the ground.

[B]

No, on the ground. On the ground. They rigged it wrong, straps twisted, you know, something like that. A major malfunction. I never saw a major. Never saw.

[A]

Is a minor enough to cause like a fatal situation?

[B]

No, a major is for sure. Yeah.

[C]

Like, not you or anyone around you.

[B]

No, no. I. I know someone that had to pull their reserve parachute, though.

[C]

Why?

[B]

They were a towed parachutist, which means that when they. So the parachute is attached to a static line in the aircraft. There's like this metal line that goes along the aircraft, and then you hook up with your static line, which is attached to your parachute. So when you jump out of the plane, it pulls the canopy, it deploys your parachute.

[C]

And you're still hooked up to the plane.

[B]

No. Nope. After that, you're gone. You're out of there. But his didn't deploy, so it was attached. And he was like banging up against the side of the plane, you know, while it was going. So what the jump master has to do is look outside the aircraft and determine are they conscious enough to be able to cut the yellow line, cut that static line so that they'll deploy, and then they have to pop the reserve parachute at that point. Point, yeah. That's why you carry reserve. Yeah. In case your main doesn't. Doesn't deploy or has a major malfunction. So like that something.

[C]

Do you have to go through brain tests leading up to this to show that you can do that under pressure?

[B]

No. There's the school. Jump Master school is like one of the hardest school. I mean obviously Special Forces is tough too and like Rangers Delta selection, that's tough. But mentally, like Jump Master courses is pretty challenging. It really is. The washout rate is I think only like 20 graduate per every course. And there's maybe 120 people that they get into it each.

[C]

And you went into Jump Master School?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What was it like? Like what did they do? What's the day to day?

[B]

Day to day is just like learning the equipment every day and learning the sequence of, you know, inspecting the parachute. You know, you're just sitting there. You go through this circle. There's soldiers that are lined up and they have all the gear on. You have to go through the sequence all the time. You have to, to like look at something, look at this, look at that. And when you have to call out a deficiency, you have to call out to the jumper side. So your left is your right and your right is your left. And you can't get that mixed up.

[C]

And then you get it wrong at the start of the episode.

[A]

What's that?

[C]

You didn't get it wrong at the start of the episode.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I was just doing the jumper side.

[B]

And you have to use proper nomenclature too.

[C]

So what makes people quit? Like what's the 20% from if it's just like. No, they get cut like that.

[B]

They get cut. That's it. Yeah. You fail either a written exam. Jump master pre inspection is the hardest part. Like you have to JMPI jump master pre inspection. You have to JMPI three jumpers in five minutes.

[C]

What does that mean?

[B]

Three means that you have five minutes to go through the whole sequence of 120 items on one person and you have to do it three times. Two of them are Hollywood, which means Hollywood is the, the jumps that you see like in Hollywood. Right. They're wearing just the pack and the reserve. They're not wearing full combat equipment. And then one jumper is full combat equipment, meaning they have their rifle, they have a ruck, they have all this stuff like attached to them. So there's more to the sequence that you have to go through for that specific jumper. And you have to find all major and minor defenses deficiencies within that five minute time frame.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you typically like.

[B]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's Mind boggling. Struggling. Yeah.

[C]

When you're in the field, do you have to operate that quickly or are they just making you operate that quickly for the test aspect of it? Because I imagine that having to go that fast under pressure creates small errors.

[B]

Yeah, that's a really good question. And we asked that during the course, too, because a lot of people about the time requirement. Right. And it's because in a real life scenario, if you had to drop 1000 paratroopers and you had to jmpi them all within that time frame, you have to maintain that time frame to get them through, to get them on the

[C]

aircraft so they don't check themselves. Someone has to check each and every one of them.

[B]

Yeah, everyone has to check somebody. So one.

[C]

Yes. Let's go. You're giggling. You got a good story here.

[B]

One of my buddies, this is before I was a jump master, right. And I was still a noob, like, paratrooper. One of my. So when you're getting ready to be jmpi, the jump masters see you. And if you have your helmet on, that means that you need to be jmpi. If you don't have your helmet on and your static line is attached to your. Your reserve parachute, that means that you're good to go. And you've already been jmpi. So me and my buddy, we would look at one another, be like, you don't have a hair on your ass if you don't undo your static line, take off your helmet and connect it to your reserve, which means that you're jumping without being jmpi.

[A]

Just Russian roulette.

[B]

Russian roulette.

[C]

Well, you check your own stuff, right?

[B]

No, there's no way.

[C]

You're literally just Russian rouletting. Yeah.

[B]

And we weren't.

[C]

Jump masters can check the back.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, the JMPIs go through the whole

[A]

sequence, so they're having a macho contest over.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Safety protocols.

[B]

We did it three times. Three times.

[C]

Are you kidding yourself?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

What do you mean? No.

[B]

Yeah. When you get. Oh, yeah. When you get up in the plane, you're getting ready to hook up to that static line. You're like, what the what? There's a pack closing tie.

[C]

You said you were Risk Adverse in the beginning. I thought you related on that.

[B]

There's an adrenaline. Adrenaline aspect to it. Once you've been shot at, it's hard to replicate that. That adrenaline.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now you're out here, Denali.

[C]

That's freaking nuts. I just. I don't know. My brain, my. My Silly brain tells me that army is like the green army men running. You know, like the little stories where it's like, yeah, they're in the plane. They're in. They're not in the planes. They're in the ground.

[B]

No. So there's like, 82nd Airborne. There's 173rd Airborne. I think there's an airborne brigade in Alaska now.

[C]

And they're Army.

[B]

Yeah, they're all army. Yeah. 101st Airborne. Right. Which band of brothers? They used to be airborne, but now they're like air assault. They don't necessarily jump out of planes anymore. Air assault is like repelling out of helicopters. Like, that's. That's what they do now. That's their specialty.

[C]

Therefore, I gotta watch a documentary.

[A]

Quick aside. Does Stephen look like he could be like Skirka's more bearded brother? Do you see?

[C]

I took my glasses off? I feel like I've met him before. His face looks.

[B]

I came to one of the hats.

[C]

Have I chatted? Have I talked to you?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I was gonna say that's one thing I keep not being able to put my finger on is I feel like I've, like, held a full conversation with you, and I'm not sure when that might have been. You just have a very familiar looking face.

[B]

I think I came to the December one.

[A]

Was it a meetup or a live podcast?

[B]

It was a meetup. Yeah.

[C]

The Skirka ask is a stretch because of all the beard.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But he's got, like, a similar eye look. Looks.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I also can't believe you. Sorry. I've been on the Internet today. I can't believe you guys, because I'm covering for Elise while she's out. I can't believe you got Skirky to stand on this table and show himself wiping his ass.

[A]

The video series is.

[C]

That was incredible. Plug for the tracks. If you're not following the trek on Instagram. I went on today to backpack a radio to post for Elise, and I saw that and I was like, no way they got him to do that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Extra plug for the Trek's YouTube because he gives a full tutorial on the backcountry bidet.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Well done. Yeah, maybe.

[B]

Maybe this is.

[C]

Shut up.

[B]

That's.

[C]

Whoa.

[B]

Military Stephen right there.

[C]

You look mean. Yeah, I don't know if I would like. You look very friendly and approachable right now. You kind of mean.

[B]

That's a different human right there. How old are you? Different human.

[C]

This is only five years ago.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How old are you right now?

[B]

47.

[C]

So you're 42 here.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know if you yelled at me like this the way you did in the beginning.

[A]

You cry.

[C]

No, I wouldn't. I would not. Please, man would not make me cry. I would more. I would believe him more this time. I was, like, waiting for you to break character and start laughing. You know, you were saying it, and I was like, he's gonna start to laugh. This guy looks like he doesn't have a sense of humor. Go show the camera.

[A]

Well, I was gonna say we're just gonna have to flash this photo.

[C]

Yeah. Put it in front of the camera. This is the.

[A]

This close up again. We'll just. If send us a photo. We'll put it on the YouTube. YouTube video. That'd be even better.

[C]

That cost you like, five bucks

[A]

worth it. That's what we do for our listeners here at backpacking radio.

[B]

We're supposed to be talking about hiking.

[A]

Yeah, let's talk about hiking.

[C]

We have been. We saw moose. It was great.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It was.

[A]

Count out of 14ers. We've done a lot of 14er talk on this podcast. I want to talk about some of the. The seven summits.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which one did you start with?

[B]

I started with Akankagua.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

In Argentina.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yep. It's the highest point outside of the Himalayas. Highest point in South America.

[A]

I know very little about the seven summits. Is that considered, like, the easiest of them?

[B]

No, Killy for sure is easiest. Or Carson's pyramid. Carson's pyramid. So the oceanic peak, you can choose either Koryosco in Australia or Carson's pyramid and Papua New Guinea. Okay. Carson's pyramid was off limits for about seven, eight years because there's rebel groups that attack and. And kidnap people that are trying to do it, and they hold them for ransom like that. How do they make money over there? But Koyosko would probably be the easiest if you're going to do the oceanic peak.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But Kilimanjaro is the most enjoyable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From what I've done so far, I would say yeah. But Akankagua's. It's. It's an expedition style. Right. But the mules bring the majority of your gear up to base camp, Plaza de Mulas, and then from there, you have to shuttle your own gear up through Camp 1, Camp 2, Camp 3, up to 23, 000ft for the summit.

[A]

So there's three camps.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Once you get to the first camp, how long is the expedition up to

[B]

that point or for the remaining point?

[A]

I guess let's just do the full thing. Yeah.

[B]

You've been getting 15 days.

[A]

15 days. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

But after you summit, here's, here's, here's the kicker. After you summit, you got to go all the way back down from Camp 3, back down to 14 camp, which. Camp 3 is at, like 19, 500ft. So you got to descend 5,000ft, and then the next day you got to walk your happy ass out of the park, which is like a 20 mile or outside of the entire park.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But the mules carry the majority of your gear, so you're carrying maybe like a day pack or something like that, but still just being exhausted from going up, you know, those altitudes for that amount of time takes like four days to summit from 14 camp, you know, up to the summit and then back down.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How does that compare to, like, your most physically exerting day and say the cdt?

[B]

Yeah, man. It's. It's so different, though, because, like, you can have a really exerting day on the CDT or any trail. Right. You can go to bed, wake up in the next morning, crush some calories or caffeine, and then get back out there. Or, or you can, say, make the decision to get off trail. Right. I think on expedition styles, like, you don't have that decision to, like, get off trail if you wanted to. Like, you're stuck in that environment. So it's. Yeah, I will. I will say my hardest day on any trail, any expedition, was in Vermont. And it wasn't a day. It was like a fucking week. I'll be honest.

[C]

Tell us that story. But can you unlock your phone? I want to. You're just talking right now, and I'm trying to picture that face, and I, I. You're not the same person. I just need to hold it up and imagine that that's the guy telling this. Okay, tell me about what happened in

[A]

Vermont so we can AI.

[B]

That it rained on. I did the 18 and 23. Right. It was horrible rain that year. It was awful. And I just was sick and tired of being wet, cold, hungry. I would wake up in my tent, and I'm like, I don't want to do this today. I don't want to hike today. Not that I wanted to quit. That. That thought never crossed my mind, but I just didn't want to do it right. So I told myself, just do 10 miles. You can do 10 miles. That's easy, right? You can be done by noon. I literally had to do that for, like, four days until I broke through that mental barrier and Was ready to go back at it. It was so bizarre.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I have never been like in that mental headspace in my life.

[A]

Life. Do you think that was just the rain or was that just like a lull in the excitement?

[C]

It takes really a lot of effort though. I think it's because you're making a mean mug in that face.

[B]

Maybe I was trying to be like

[C]

I like the facial features wouldn't even match my brain now it does a little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

The rain and then it was like towards the end of the through I don't. It. It stopped being a vacation and it started being a vocation. Like it started being a job at that point for me. Me at. You know. And it just. It was hard to break through that mental barrier.

[A]

Okay, so potentially your mental lowest point was in the context of through hiding through hiking. I'm guessing physically way more demanding peak bagging or mountaineering.

[B]

Physically it was Denali.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For sure. Yeah. I remember going up the fixed lines to high camp which is at 17000ft. And then you have to carry all your own gear at that point. Like your pack weighs about 670 pounds. You have to go up the glacier. Like the face of it, it's maybe a thousand feet avert at a 50 degree angle slope. So it's pretty, pretty severe. And getting up there I was like I'm. I'm freaking. And we had to pick up our cash that we buried like a day before.

[C]

Why did you bury cash?

[B]

Cachet. Cachet.

[A]

Oh yeah, really funny. It felt like a like pirates treasure. Hard.

[C]

I should know these ch out of context. You're just listening and invest in the story. It's a different country. I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's not a different country.

[C]

Denali then what?

[A]

Denali.

[C]

That's not in the U.S. it's in Alaska. Okay.

[B]

Yes it is.

[C]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever said. Oh my God.

[A]

Don't worry. We're not getting that.

[C]

Don't cut that. Cut that. Don't cut that. I was thinking about South America this whole time. I'm going to go pee. She's so dumb. Just leave me. Babe, I'm. Listen. I'm processing. My brain's not normal. I'm unwell. I'm going to go sit in the bathroom for three minutes and then I'll be back.

[B]

High five.

[A]

High five.

[C]

All of you.

[A]

We're going to miss her.

[B]

Yeah. That day was probably the whole hardest.

[A]

Yeah, I have a note.

[B]

And then we did the freaking death march. So death march. So we had a very nether narrow, nether narrow weather window to get from high camp all the way back down to base camp. So our guides told us, hey look, if we don't get down there tomorrow, we're going to be stuck in here for another seven days because the storm system is going to move in.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I know. The actual summit rate on Denali is, is very low, right?

[B]

It's like 30. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's crazy. I mean to invest that much into it and like we've had previous guests that would spend an extended period of time in camp not being sure.

[B]

Weather window. Right. We had a very, it was like a 48 hour weather. When I saw droves of people come down, they were like, we were up there for seven days, never got a chance. Yeah, it truly, it's so cliche to say, but it makes its own weather. I mean it is just, just, it's its own thing. Yeah. In mountaineering, you know, are there, is

[A]

there any sense of a reliable forecast out there or is it just like you're just going based off what you see?

[B]

So the, the park rangers will give you a forecast over their radio. Right. But it's MPS, NOAA weather.gov thing. Our guide who worked, I went with alpine ascents and originally I didn't want to go guided. I wanted to go unguided because, you know, in the world of mountaineering, you know, just like in purists with through hiking there's different levels, Right? Sure. And I wanted to go unguided. Couldn't find anyone that I trusted that had the same skill set and level, you know, expertise and whatnot. So I went without Pine instance. But our lead guy, dawn, he used a pay to play system with Belgium where he would give them barometric readings. I mean he had all the equipment, he would go outside and he'd take readings every day and he would give it to them and then they would create a model forecast based off of what?

[A]

Like a black market forecast?

[B]

Getting like a black market forecast.

[A]

Oh, that's.

[B]

It was badass. And he, it was spot on. Really? Yeah. He told us, he's like, we are going to have a 72 hour window to summit and then we are going to have to get the hell out of here.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in that 72 hour window, like give me the stats, like what sort of distance are you covering? And I know like you can't compare because like how technical. But walk me through, what does that three days look like?

[B]

So 14 camp up to high camp, right. So 14 camp and high camp is 17,000 thousand. So you go 3,000ft of gain for there, but the pack that you're carrying is. Is insane. It's so heavy. It's on a fixed line too. Right. Then you go from high camp up to the summit, which is 20,000. Excuse me, 300ft for the summit. So another three, 300ft of gain, but then you're at like 20,000. I mean the breathing that you're doing, you know, Acclimatization. Acclimatization, yeah. Climatization wise, it just goes through different wickets. Cold, right? Windy, snowy. We got really good weather for our summit day, thank God. The day we got up to high camp, there is a lenticular cloud over the summit. I mean it engulfed it because the winds were so high. It was wild to see that. It's like a spaceship cloud that's like over the summit. It's so crazy.

[A]

Did you get a view at the summit?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Summit day was actually really good. It was cold, right? It was in the teens. It was windy. You could almost see the ocean. Wow. Standing on top of Denali. Yeah. All the way out there.

[A]

That's wild.

[B]

But you could see like the route that you took up through the glacier and the different camps, like get to the point where you're at, which was super cool. Yeah, yeah. But the death march, we had to go from high camp all the way down to base camp in a single push. So you have to go from 17,000ft all the way down to 7,000 thousand feet. Carrying your pack, carrying a sled. But then you're picking up all your cached that you left. Like the human waste. There's clean mountain cans, you poop in a can. On Denali, you don't just poop anywhere and you have to pick all that stuff up so your sled gets heavier and heavier and heavier at each spot that you stop at. Yeah.

[C]

Did you have those kinds of marches in the military that gave you that experience to get through it?

[B]

No, we. I mean every once in a while you would do what's called like an annual 12 mile ruck. Right. With maybe a 35 pound pack, but nothing to the level of mountaineering? No.

[C]

Well, because when we did the Northville Plaza Trail, you compared the first two days to that. And my wonder is, is there what it being a death march?

[A]

Oh yeah.

[B]

Death march.

[C]

No, just in general, like it feeling like a death march where it's like if you had my. The. Where I was going was if you had any military experience, that like gave you, like a mindset to get in or something to remember that helped with it just because we had brought it up on a different hike. For some of us that haven't done that stuff, if there was a tip you could give to just slog through.

[B]

Embrace the suck.

[C]

Yeah. It's so much freaking easier said than done, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Hike your own hike, too.

[B]

It is. Yeah. That true. So true.

[C]

Does that help?

[B]

Hike your own hike or embrace someone

[C]

saying that to you in a hard moment?

[B]

No, because it can be like a you.

[C]

Right. If I'm struggling on this kind of death march and you're like, embrace the suck. I want to punch you in the face.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[C]

I'm not like, cool advice.

[B]

Can I. Can I use the bathroom?

[C]

Yeah, you can. We all can. Everyone can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[C]

the U.S. okay, I thought we were talking about Anaconda in Argentina. Yeah, Anacogua, whatever.

[B]

Yeah, it's a hard one.

[C]

I thought we were talking about that one.

[B]

I think I mispronounced it while I was on the mountain, too.

[C]

And that's not because I wasn't listening. Yeah, it's just sometimes there's a lot of words happening and this is a lot of active listening.

[A]

I can't tell if you're quiet or.

[C]

I don't think I'm working. I think maybe A little bit, but

[A]

you just gotta be closer to the mic.

[B]

Am I good? Yeah, we're good.

[A]

We're back. Chauce is breathing. Marry. Kill.

[B]

Ooh.

[A]

Denali. Aknagwa. Akgangwa.

[B]

Akankagua.

[A]

Yeah. And Kilimanjaro.

[C]

Ooh.

[B]

Yeah. Denali. Mary Killy. Kill. Aconcagua.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I was a slog. It really was. Denali is just like, a special place and a special mountain. I would love to go back to that mountain. I want to go again. Like, I want to do a different route. The Cassini Ridge route versus the west buttress. Killy was so enjoyable. Like, it's such a great experience. I love it. But Aconcagua was just. Yeah, that place.

[A]

My understanding with Kelly is it's not technically difficult.

[B]

Is that accurate?

[A]

It does it just feel like a hike and then, like, elevation, obviously, is a major component, but yeah.

[B]

Yeah, it goes up to, like, 19. It's the tallest freestanding mountain in the world, I think, because it's like a. It's an extinct volcano.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But just the people, the vibes, the food, I mean, they understand that that is the source of their economy is that mountain and the beaches that they have, and they take such good. Like, it's. It's just a great experience. It really is. It's awesome.

[A]

That's good feedback. I really want to do it.

[B]

Do it, man.

[C]

Like, yeah, I would do it.

[A]

Do it. Road trip. Yeah, do it.

[C]

Call up the powers of it, dude.

[B]

I will give you my gut. The company that I use. Contact.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can say the name. Do you remember it?

[B]

He doesn't have it. It's under the raven.

[C]

John.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Sweet.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Of the four you haven't done, if you were to have to. Based on the research you've done and not actual firsthand knowledge, if you were have to cut one from the list, like Pluto in the planet, which one gets cut?

[B]

Probably Vincent Massive in Antarctica because it's just cold. It's like. It's so EX1. The cost. It's not that great of a mountain either.

[C]

Does it cost more than Everest?

[B]

In theory, it kind of does, yeah. Because you have to take a boat, then fly into the glacier, and every pound that you bring on the aircraft cost a hundred dollars. Whoa. Yeah. So if you weigh 200 pounds in your weight alone, but they charge you

[C]

for how heavy you are too. Yeah, that would be controversial.

[A]

You're definitely sawing your toothbrush in half for that.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You're going ultra light on there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And honestly, when I got into mountaineering through hiking. Helped me because it, like, it gave me a sense of what I could live with on an expedition. I knew what I could have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I saw people that came on Denali that had way more than they needed. Way more.

[C]

Well, I mean, that's like, when you get to Neil Gap and you're seeing people, you got to learn it yourself. Yeah.

[B]

Because they're dumping stuff in the box. And, you know, that's funny too, because on the at, you see it twice. You see that twice. I think you see it in Neil's Gap, and then you see it in Harper's Ferry because you get the Sobos, or not the Sobos, but the flip floppers that start in Virginia or Harper's Ferry. And then they, like the. The trail, the blanking. The term. The trail boxes.

[C]

Oh, the hiker box.

[B]

Hiker box start to fill up again. Yeah, they start to fill up again. And then they get sparse as you go further north. Right. And. But then they hit again when you get all the Sobos that are coming from south. So you get like three iterations of the hiker boxes along the track.

[C]

I'd say there's another after the Smokies where it's like the person that, like, Meal Gap for some people is too close.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, yeah, I have this frying pan, but it hasn't hurt me enough yet. I'm not ready to leave it yet. It's only been like 40 miles. I'm not. Yeah, I haven't let go enough. And then they go through the Smokies, or maybe they had to carry a little extra cold weather gear, depending on the type of year or whatever. And at the end, when they're sending other stuff home.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's less shameful, I think. Not that any of it should actually bring shame. Like, I don't think the shame is real, but for the individual person living through it, to only carry something 40 miles and be like, this was stupid. Like, there's a part of me that on the principal would be like, I want to take it a little further.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I met a. A guy that was doing his triple crown on the at in a shelter. I think it was like Woods Hole or, I don't know, one of the shell. They all blend together. I'm sorry. My memory, it fades. It was one of the shelters. And then he gave me some great advice. He's like, number one, if you're thinking of quitting, take three days and a zero. Don't go to A hotel or a motel. Stay in a hostel, stay around other hikers.

[A]

I got that exact same advice.

[C]

Yeah. No one specifies that.

[A]

Take three zeros.

[C]

No, no, no. Stay around hikers, not a hotel. I would think go to a hotel where it's most luxurious.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Why a hotel hostel?

[B]

Yeah. And then he said, if there's something in your pack that you haven't touched in five days, get rid of it because you're obviously not needing it. Minus first aid. Right.

[C]

Mindset. Before we move on, what's the mindset of the hiker hostel versus the hotel?

[B]

Because you're around other hikers, you're still, like, connected to the trail, I think in a hotel or a motel, if you're staying there by yourself, you're just in your own. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[C]

That's a really smart specification.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I haven't heard. That's a unique one. I haven't heard yet.

[B]

He definitely made that distinction. Yeah.

[C]

What was the third part?

[B]

I can't remember. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, that was useful enough to.

[B]

Oh, I think it was caloric intake. Like, if you feel like your body isn't. Is sluggish or whatever, like up your

[A]

calories, that's a really good one. And that's the one that I feel like I dish the most often just because there's really not much downside. Like maybe you gained a half pound or something like that. But there I've just encountered so many people that are feeling bad because they're not eat.

[B]

Like you're not.

[A]

You're putting. You're exerting two to three, maybe even upwards of that calories per day. And a lot of people just maintain their normal diet. And you do that long enough, your metabolism start going to start to shut down. You're going to feel like a bag of dicks.

[C]

Yeah, but if I'm in a bad mood and I'm not hungry and you're trying to get me to eat, I don't want that. I don't want to bite. I don't want to chew. I don't want, you know, like, it's just like, I'm not in the mood to eat right now.

[A]

I just.

[C]

Just don't want to do it.

[A]

I wish I could resonate with that. I wish I could be so sad that I didn't want to eat.

[C]

You've never been in a bad mood where someone's like, you should eat something and you're like, I just don't want to. Like, chewing is a. That is an act of exertion. That I don't want to give this.

[A]

If it's a food that I don't like, then yeah. But generally speaking, I enjoy eating so much that that would not be a twist of the arm.

[B]

I will say. I don't know if it was you or another guest on the podcast that gave some great advice about when you go in, if you're craving food while you're on the trail and you go into town, like, get that food. That's what you want to get. Yeah. Scratch that. Ish. Like put that in your pack. That's what you want to pack out. Don't pack out the shit that you're looking at and you're like, I gotta eat. You know, pack out the stuff that you desire.

[C]

On the term of having thoughts, like the brain thinking a lot while in that Zen state on trail. And using the notepad. I'll use the notepad to write down food cravings. Because if you're in the middle of like a five, seven day resupply stretch and you've got four days until town and you're craving chicken parm.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That is going to just like fight you and fight you and fight you because you can't have it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But if you take this notepad and you write down on a list of foods to get in town and you write down chicken parm, I think that there's a part of your brain that releases some sort of thing that says in, in. In opposition of, I can't have this. I'm four days away. I wrote it down, which means it's coming. And I think there's something about your brain that lets you back off that a little bit and maybe either not feel such a strong craving or not feel so much remorse or regret around it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it just, it conditions your brain to say it's coming versus I miss it. And so what I'll do is I'll keep a notepad and it'll be like, foods I crave. And in between each resupply shop, it's like, you know, Oreos with whatever pulled pork, chicken parm, meatball sub wings, whatever it might be. I'm Crate Twizzlers, anything. And when I get to town, half of those I cross off and I'm like, I actually don't really want those anymore. But on trail, just by writing it down, it tells my brain it's coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That and packing out food too. I was like packing out cheeseburgers, like, just. It's the freedom and flexibility. Like you don't have to be so regimented. Like I have to eat this or I have to eat bars or I have to eat gels. Like yeah, it is what you want it. Like what your body craves.

[A]

That's like through hiking 202, I feel like, like once you get past the beginner level thing where like you're just doing bars and beef jerky and like that, like once you discover that you can pack out fast food or like get a croissant sandwich from the groceries, like just anything that is real food, it makes the day so much better.

[C]

Well, that's when you start to see packs look silly because they've got like a bag of Doritos top or a loaf of bread or whatever. But that is through hiking 202 where you realize that the first 48 hours of a resupply food stays fresh. So if I pack out the other half of a subway sandwich and that's dinner and I packed out a breakfast McMuffin and that's tomorrow's breakfast. Or I had half of a turkey BLT left and that's tomorrow's lunch, you really got a 48 window, 48 hour window before things start to taste like. And if you're on a five day resupply and two days can be things that feel normal and then two days are things that suck a little more and then the fifth day you're in down. Total mind changer for sure.

[A]

Speaking of food cravings, have you guys had the Kirkland S' more clusters?

[B]

No. What are those?

[A]

Whoever made these. This is just the bag. So the bag's not going to do much for you. If I showed it to you, it's going to look like a normal candy bar. But this is the most dangerous food that I've. I'm not exaggerating. I consumed 800 calories of this in like a minute and a half span. Because just the fact that they've got the marshmallow in it makes it kind of airy and easier to just eat fast. Jenna gets mad at me when it. Yes, Costco.

[C]

Can you screenshot it and send it to me?

[A]

It's so you're gonna be mad if you get it.

[C]

No, I. Kirkland, believe me.

[B]

S'. Mores.

[A]

Yeah, Kirkland's work.

[C]

It reminds me of the brownie brittle. You know that one where it's like the evidence. That one's a little too.

[A]

That's how chocolatey it is is a little bit more self limiting. You could eat half the bag in the bag is. It's a pound and a half.

[C]

Our new house is right near Costco.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Tell me to become a member.

[A]

Watch out.

[C]

If you could send me a screenshot of that photo.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Ooh, they're caramel too.

[A]

They're so. They're so good.

[C]

Last night I went to bed and I couldn't fall. I didn't fall asleep till 7am this is a separate thing we're working on, but at some point in the middle of the night, I got one of those Magnum ice cream bars out of the freezer that were chocolate and caramel. Over the ice cream, half asleep, ate the whole. I only remember this morning because I remembered that I dropped one. Like, you know when you bite the crust and the chocolate falls off and then you're sticky because it's on you and wipe that off. But the caramel just reminded me of that thought where I was like, oh, shit. I slept, ate a.

[B]

Have you guys. Have you guys had Auto's Chicken Shack in Fair Play or Alma? Yes. You need to go have Auto's Chicken.

[A]

I've heard of this place.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I haven't been. I think I learned about it through Spencer, who we had on outside.

[C]

He was great.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Our friend in the flannel.

[A]

Yeah. I haven't been.

[B]

It is phenomenal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It is badass. I did Fletcher yesterday. 13 or near quandary. And I came back and I'm like, I'm getting Autos, because I always get it when I go up to Brecker Keystone, because I take the back way 285 to. To 9.

[A]

You said it was fair play. And where's the other one?

[B]

It's an Alma. There's. There's, like, a food truck in Alma, but then they have a brick and mortar restaurant in Alma as well.

[A]

Got it. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

It's so good. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[A]

So you picking 13ers off in late April. How much. At what elevation are you encountering snow?

[B]

It was pretty consistent, like, around 12, 500 yesterday.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it was. It was really good snowpack, though. I was surprised. Like. Like it was.

[A]

Are you bored by dry 14ers nowadays?

[B]

A little, yeah. I'm not gonna lie. It's so horrible to say that too, because.

[A]

No, it's good to know yourself.

[B]

Like, bigger doesn't necessarily always mean better, but, you know. And there was a couple of wet avi slides adjacent when I was, like, in this kind of basin going up to the peak. Yeah.

[C]

If it's any constellation on the. That's crazy. I'm looking at like the ski tracks. That looks almost vertical.

[B]

No, those are wet slides.

[C]

These aren't ski tracks.

[B]

No, those are avalanche indicators. They're called like roller balls, which means that the. The slope is getting ready to give way.

[C]

I thought every time I saw that it was people had skied down it.

[B]

It might be that. But in that instance, it's actually indications of avalanche activity.

[C]

This is a good time to tell people if you do backcountry skiing, you should take an AVI awareness course.

[B]

You should.

[C]

You should definitely take that looks like people had skied down there. And for me, that would tell me that's a cool place to ski because other people have done it.

[B]

Yeah, I took Abby level one. When did I like January of 2024, I think. Yeah, that's going up to the summit. But the snow was good. Like it was solid.

[C]

Are you afraid of dying?

[A]

What a question.

[C]

Well, because I see this and I think I would rather not do it because I'm afraid that I might die. And he said he was risk adverse at the start of the show.

[A]

I was complimenting you, I think.

[C]

And he's doing this stuff.

[A]

We were about to get a really interesting answer, but we still will.

[C]

I'm not going to let him go.

[A]

I know. I'm just. I was complimenting your question.

[C]

It's like a. It's like the Barbie movie. I never thought about dying.

[B]

I was laughing. I'm sorry.

[C]

Are you? No. You can laugh as much as you want. You want to touch me again? Are you afraid of dying?

[B]

I think that anyone, at any given point in anyone's life, you could die crossing a street, you could die in a car wreck, you could die on a train, you could die on a plane.

[C]

So yes or no?

[B]

Not really. How, how, how do I get to that level?

[C]

Yeah,

[B]

compartmentalization. I don't know.

[C]

Because this, like, this is cool. And this looks. This looks really cool.

[B]

It was epic. It was fun. It's a fun little piece. You guys should do it.

[C]

If you were to put me there. Yeah, you should do it. If you were to put me there. I would not have fun because I would be worrying about dying the whole time. Yeah, same like one bad misstep, I'd be done.

[B]

So I.

[C]

Okay, so as a risk averse person, how do you enjoy it?

[B]

You know? Yeah. So okay, to your point, and that's a really good question. I think when you get like just with through hiking, right when you first start out, you think you might die along the way. When you're going through some of the passes or some of the climbs. Right. And then you get that experience level, and it kind of builds and it compounds. And you're like, okay, I've been through this. Yeah, I can go through this. Does that make sense?

[A]

It makes perfect sense.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's where it comes from.

[A]

You've just built such a comfort and confidence through all the. That you've done that. Like, you get there and you don't feel like you're out of your skis.

[B]

But confidence and cocky are very closely related cousins.

[C]

You know, those are scary cousins because one cousin's a bad angel and one cousin's a good angel.

[B]

Yeah. So you have to skirt like that line while you're doing it.

[C]

You know, it's crazy seeing quandary there, because I've done

[B]

that ridge would go. You could totally connect that ridge to flesh. That ridge would go.

[C]

Here's a question. We do a segment called One Minute Gear Reviews. I've not seen this piece of gear yet, but when I was on the at, I started March. I'll show it to you. I started March 4, and it was so cold that, like, I couldn't stop to eat snacks because I was just so cold. My nose was so cold.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What are you wearing? What is that called?

[B]

Face mask. Outer you. Face mask.

[C]

Outer you?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That's a brand.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Like, outer O U, T O U

[B]

T E R U, capital U. Outer U.

[C]

That's a face mask.

[B]

Is amazing. Everyone had it on Denali. I didn't have one. I was super jealous. When I got back, I immediately bought one.

[C]

You can see the flap that covers the nose.

[B]

It covers the tip of your nose?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's so cool.

[A]

That's cool because when I. Yeah. When I wear my, like, balaclava while I'm snowboarding, my goggles fog up immediately. I imagine that prevents that entirely.

[B]

Totally. Yeah.

[C]

Well, I don't like the bottle.

[B]

I think they're based in. Sorry.

[C]

I like saying baklava.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't like them covering the whole mouth because then it gets like. It's hard to breathe. I'm asthmatic. I don't like the limited air. But this was what I was doing with my buff, was I was just putting it only on my nose and leaving my mouth out. I'm gonna have to buy one of these.

[B]

It's in New Hampshire, I think, where they're based out of.

[A]

Oh, cool.

[C]

Yeah. Outer you.

[B]

Outer you. Yeah.

[A]

Sweet.

[B]

They have an insta, too. Not to plug someone's gear.

[C]

No, no.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

Anything that's like an organic. I liked this because it worked. And plug away. You know, if you're just like. If they're paying you on the side and I'm sneaking in an ad, like, maybe. Naughty, naughty. But like, if you genuinely like something, we want everyone else here too.

[B]

I wish I was getting paid for gear endorsements.

[C]

Believe me, for the listener, if you're not watching on YouTube, which you should be, this is like an eye mask that you wear on a plane, except instead of covering his eyes, it just covers his nose really well and his cheeks. I need one of these.

[A]

Is sweet.

[B]

It's so cool. And they make like a winter one, too. That's more padded. Yeah, it's got like a fleece liner underneath it. Warmer. Yeah, super, super.

[C]

Which peak is this?

[B]

That's Fletcher Peak 13. Er.

[A]

What advice would you give to someone who's comfortable with, like, standard style through hiking that wants to get into the peak bagging, mountaineering, summiting style of trips that you're doing now?

[B]

Go to Ecuador. Honestly. Yeah. That was like my introduction and it really helped. It built like a foundation. It really did. Those mountains are epic enough, but there's not so much danger like you think you're going to die epic. But they give you the skills, like glaciated and stuff. And three of them weren't even glaciated. You know, the other K and Chimborazo were the two. And there's Cotopaxi. We couldn't do that while I was there because of volcanic activity. I so want to go back and I want to build a trip and do, like, specific ones while we're down there. But yeah, go into Ecuador or come out to Colorado and do a 14 or, you know, do like Albert do beer sat, you know, do one of the easier ones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Might be for you, might not be for you. Might get the bug. Just go out there and try it, you know, give it a go.

[C]

Is there a particular season that's better to go to Ecuador in?

[B]

I went in November, but I think you can climb there year round because it's on the equator and those peaks are so high that they stay glaciated no matter what. Yeah. Like some peaks do have a season, like Denali obviously has a season, Everest, whatnot. But yeah, Ecuador, you can go anytime.

[A]

That's cool.

[C]

Jason, this is an insane video. I'm going to show it to Zach in a second. It looks like you're by yourself. Do you go?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was solo, though.

[C]

How if you're Someone that's new to it and you're nervous to it. What do you. What do you think the best way to like, go do that?

[B]

Start within your confidence level. Start with what you're comfortable with, and then slowly tick up the confidence level. Like, say, do a Class 1 solo. Right. And then maybe next time do a Class 2 solo. If it's too much for you, back off. And then go back and work on foundational skills that like, got you scared off the peak and then go back and try it again. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which foundational skills do you think someone should.

[B]

Route finding. Yeah. Route finding, Absolutely. Yeah. You got to know where the hell you're going. Yeah. For winterized peaks, avalanche awareness. You got to know what you're doing out there. You can't just go up slopes willy nilly. I mean, you could die.

[C]

Yeah. I emphasize immensely. Take an Abby course. We had a past guest. We never did we say this on the show about Nikki. Oh, we ever talk about her on the show?

[A]

No. And we should. Yeah.

[C]

One of our past. So I hiked with a. I hiked with an incredible couple on the atn. If you listen to this episode, you would know it. But I hiked with an incredible couple on the AT and their son's wife they recommended as a guest. And she was an incredible guest. She talked about all kinds of adventures that she was doing. But she was recently in an avalanche on Donner Pass that had taken nine people.

[A]

It was the big story out of Tahoe.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That she was a former guest, Nikki Chu.

[C]

It was very sad.

[B]

Was she. Did she pass?

[C]

Yes, she did. She was one of the guides. So it was like a. It was like a seven person mob group that had gone on it and it was her and one other guide.

[B]

Yeah, I read that article. It sounded like that. It sound like they made some.

[A]

Yeah. No, I question.

[C]

No one knows because. No, no one knows because no one was there.

[B]

No one knows.

[C]

I can't imagine being in a position of guiding something like that and having that kind of responsibility. I also can't imagine imagine managing not saying this in any way. Again, not saying this in any way against mom. I'm not a mom. I don't have a children. But I'm saying this in a way of like, girls out to have fun. Like to have to. And then a camp counselor way to have to like guide people out there for an enjoyable trip. Like, you know, a group of seven girls wanting to go have fun, seven boys wanting to have fun, seven dads. Who gives A. It doesn't matter. That's not the aspect I'm talking about. The. The. The part of it being a group of people that don't have this training and you're trained for them and you have to manage them and make sure they're still having fun and keep them engaged and keep them enjoying it and focus on all. Like, there's no way to judge a situation like that.

[B]

There isn't. I want to get certified as a guy, but I'm seriously hesitant to do it because I exact reason what you're saying right there. Like, they're close for an experience.

[C]

You don't yell at them the way you yelled at me. But you also don't want to be like, sitting there with regret because something happens and it's like, oh, I let them, you know, I think the fun

[B]

out of it, like you would take the fun out of mountaineering.

[C]

For me, the reason why I brought it up is echoing what you're saying. Take an AVI class.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If you're going to be back country doing anything. I haven't taken an AVI class because I avoid that shit. I don't want to be out there. I don't want to do that. I don't feel I need to take this class because I'm not putting myself in those situations. But the reason I'm saying it is someone like Nikki, who is, if you listen to her episode A, so down to earth, so nice, so lovely, but so experienced in what she does.

[B]

Which one?

[C]

Something could still happen.

[B]

Can you tell me the name again? I'm sorry.

[C]

Nikki Chu.

[A]

Nikki Chu.

[C]

N I K I C H O O.

[A]

It was backpack radio 179. Came out December 12, 2022.

[B]

179.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And for the listener, if you haven't listened to it yet, go back and listen. Just because Nikki's like, she's no longer with us. And she was such a bright, loving, awesome personality. Just to hear her voice and keep it alive. Another, you know, moment. If you haven't listened to that episode and you're new here and you're catching up on the backlog, go listen to that one. Because it's just.

[A]

And people might have skipped it because it's like off the beaten path. For us, it was a expedition across Canada from ocean to ocean, Pacific Ocean to the Arctic Circle via canoe. And like, she didn't have much prior experience doing anything like that.

[C]

So you can hear. You can hear the life. I mean, you can. You can hear the zest for it. It's episode 179 if you need to, like, narrow down the search anymore, and I don't mean to take this in that direction to make it, but talking about the snow and that sort of thing, I just wanted to point out that even if you're someone who's like, oh, I already did the piece of, you know, like, it's not about that. You could be the most trained person who's guiding things and doing everything right. And, like, give. Give less reasons for that to happen.

[B]

You know, through seeing people pass away, you know, killed in war, it really. When it's your time, it's your time. Like, it's not up to you. It's. It doesn't matter who you're with, what you're doing. When it's your time, it's your time.

[C]

Does that make you more comfortable with it or more fearful of it because it could come at any moment?

[B]

No, it makes me more com. It's acceptance, you know, it's not up to you. That's it. Unfortunately, it was her time, you know,

[C]

I'm sure that's not how you started, though.

[B]

No.

[C]

How do you get there, going through

[B]

those experiences, processing them? I think. Yeah.

[C]

Do you mind if I ask what it's like on the way?

[B]

On the way, like, going through it?

[C]

Yeah, it's messy. Like, I can't imagine seeing that happen. And just being like, that's life.

[B]

It's like a compartmentalization. Like I said earlier, it's very messy, you know, in the moment, but when you get back and I honestly, I didn't really process a lot of this stuff until I did it through. I mean, I'll be seriously honest with you.

[C]

You seem so happy right now. Like, how do you not let it drag you down?

[B]

I've accepted it. I've moved on. You know, I've had a lot of time and space for my military career. I see friends that are still invested in the Defense Department industry. That's not just. That's not what I want to do. I did my time. I'm very fortunate. I'm glad I did my time, but I just wanted to step away. It's not something that I wanted to be involved with anymore, and I've accepted it. And I. I love doing. Going outdoors, you know.

[C]

Hey, you there. In the baby registry rabbit hole, the thing experienced parents agree on. A nanit smart baby monitor, one camera, one app for video breathing, motion monitoring, and personalized sleep insights all in one place. Check in from anywhere, get real time safety notifications, and capture every sleepy Smile and goodnight kiss. The best part. Those insights help you get more sleep. Starting night one, add it to your registry or [e-mail] tired of your car insurance rate going up? Even with a clean driving record, you're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden feats. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence. Download the Jerry app or visit Jerry AI Libson today. That's J E R R Y a I/lib s y n. Do you feel

[A]

like a entirely different person?

[B]

Yeah, I'm a. That picture. That's a different human.

[A]

Yeah, that's not me. Yeah.

[C]

Well, I was gonna say when I, like when I ask these questions, it's not, not, it's not because I'm like, tell me everything. It's more like you seem so happy and so calm and so at peace right now and I wonder how you can see all that and come to that conclusion. And like, it just seems like an ideal outcome, you know? Like, it seems like you, like, you don't seem fucked up right now. Maybe you are, I don't know. At the moment you don't seem fucked up. You seem very happy and nice and like easy to talk to and friendly and it's like, how do you maintain that optimism and like that sort of like confidence and closure and like understanding when you've gone through something, it's like the bigger picture of like. Yeah, this is so interesting.

[B]

I was thinking about the other day. A lot of it is, is I feel a deep sense of responsibility to live my life to the fullest. For people that I know that have never truly come home, whose lives were cut short.

[C]

Does that weigh on? Is that like a pressure?

[B]

It's not a pressure. I just feel like that's what. How I should live my life. I shouldn't wallow in despair. I shouldn't be depressed. I shouldn't go through these, these messy, chaotic periods. I should embrace it. I should enjoy it.

[C]

Do you beat yourself up when you don't live up to it?

[B]

Sometimes, yeah. Like that post trail depression. Yeah. That was deep, man. It was so weird. I had never been that depressed before. So bizarre. Yeah.

[A]

I think that's a great mission. And honestly. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

If I ever perish, I want someone to go out And I mean, like, not even in the context of, like. I didn't sacrifice anything. If I die, I died because I

[C]

like a trail for you.

[A]

I. I ate too many s' mores clusters or something.

[C]

But, like, what trail do you want me to hike for you?

[A]

What's the hardest trail out there? American discover.

[C]

If you par. If you perish young and unexpectedly. You want me to hike the American Discovery Trail?

[B]

Is that the one that. All the way around?

[C]

No, I would. I would do it. And honestly, it'd be funny. Okay. Vice versa, though. No. Excuse me. You're not getting off that. You think that was the end of the sentence? Well, if I die young of whatever, it doesn't matter what kills me. If I die young, I want you to have the conscience weighing on you that I want you to hike the American Discovery Trail in my honor.

[A]

Are you repeating back what I just said to you?

[C]

You chose it because you thought it was the worst. That puts it top one in my book. Shake on it. If either of us die young, we're the end of an era here. Shake on it.

[A]

I'm not gonna shake on that process because I have young kids. I'm not gonna go disappear for a year to hike, even if I die. Yeah, no, sorry. I chaunce. I love you dearly.

[C]

Bring them with you.

[A]

But these are my children.

[C]

What's the longest hike you would do for me in my death. Death.

[A]

To honor your death.

[C]

Like, what's the longest mileage?

[A]

Jenna, I can't.

[C]

This is my death. It's like, 300 miles.

[A]

I know, but you can't give it

[C]

to 300 miles for my death.

[A]

250, tops.

[C]

Okay, fine. Do the Lone Stars Trail. Do the Lone Star Trail and do it slow. I want you to do it. If you have 250 miles is your max capacity. I want you to take two weeks to do the Lone Star Trail. You're not allowed to bail early. You're not allowed to rush miles. You're not allowed to take a car anywhere. I want you to spend. And I don't care if you could go faster and you could finish it in four days. I want you to spend two weeks doing the Lone Star Trail.

[B]

Well, thank you.

[C]

Say yes. This is my legacy. This is my memory.

[A]

I'll like the Lone Star Trail if you die young, but in two weeks.

[C]

In two weeks?

[A]

Oh, in two weeks.

[C]

I'm dying. I'm dying. I don't think you're dying if I die young.

[A]

Well, you're dead is what you're saying, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You wouldn't. In my memory and because of my wishes, take two weeks on the lungs.

[A]

What a strange thing to ask somebody.

[C]

I've known you for nine years.

[A]

It doesn't change the fact you wouldn't

[C]

take two weeks out of your life. Is it crazy because you wouldn't? Because that's what I'm thinking.

[B]

It's crazy that you guys have known each other for nine years.

[C]

It's crazy that you wouldn't give me.

[B]

How did you two even, like, in my death.

[C]

I'm dying.

[B]

How did you two even, like, hook up? What is the story behind the camera?

[A]

She started blogging for the track and

[C]

I made three posts. I had a good personality. Thought this would be fun. What a mistake. Two weeks. It's my dying wish.

[A]

By the way. By the way, if I perish, I would want you to go do something that you enjoyed. I would.

[C]

I would do the American.

[A]

No, I don't want that.

[C]

You've already said it. You've already said it. I'm going to. If you die young, if you get hit by a car on the way home, I'm going to go do the American Discovery Trail. No one could stop me. Say that you would take two weeks on the Lone Star Trail. This means. This means something.

[A]

I. I'll do it. But what a strange request is.

[C]

I don't give a If it's strange. Shake on it. If I die young, you'll spend two weeks. You won't finish a minute earlier than two weeks.

[A]

Okay, Deal.

[C]

No kidding. No. No blazing. No do it.

[A]

Define young, though, because I think you're already getting up there. If we're being honest.

[C]

Okay, I.

[A]

People are on the street are saying

[C]

before, if I die before 50.

[A]

50. 50 is a long time.

[C]

This is two weeks of your life. I'm not even asking that. Well, I gave you a decade.

[A]

We can have a. I've given the

[C]

check the decade of me.

[A]

What young actually means.

[C]

But this is less.

[A]

If you die at 49. People like that's. She had a good run.

[B]

How old are you now?

[C]

34. I'm asking for 16 years for him to commit to two weeks in memory of me. Someone who gave 10 years to this company.

[A]

What a. What a friend. That you'd want me to go out and suffer for two weeks?

[C]

Say yes.

[A]

Why? But do you see the point that I'm trying to make?

[C]

That you're not willing to do something in memory?

[A]

You don't care about me is if I perish. I wouldn't want you to go out and Suffer for any amount of time.

[C]

Why?

[A]

Because. What kind of memorial service is that?

[C]

I'm laughing at your spite the whole time. Okay, now I'm thinking about you in your best form the entire time I'm out there. Give me two weeks.

[A]

I'm 40.

[B]

Are you really? Yeah. You don't look 40.

[A]

Oh, thank you.

[C]

If you die before 50, I'll go to the American Discovery Trail.

[A]

I don't want you to do that.

[C]

I don't care.

[A]

You don't have to do it for me, because I'm not asking you to do this. Yeah, it goes from ocean to ocean.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And there's, like, two versions.

[B]

The guy I listened to that podcast, the.

[A]

The.

[B]

The guy that did it, the founder or whatever.

[A]

Well, there's the American Perimeter Trail as well.

[B]

Is that the one I'm thinking of? It goes, like, across the north. He didn't want to use the at. He used other trail systems.

[A]

I think you're describing the American Perimeter Trail. Yeah, because American Discovery Trail is mostly just east to west.

[C]

It cuts through, like, the eyeball in the middle.

[A]

God. Who's the guest?

[C]

I know? She's got the curly hair. Santos. Santos.

[B]

Oh, is that the one who pooped in a food container?

[A]

Brianna Desantis.

[C]

Desantis got there. I'm asking you for 125 miles. Just say yes, and we can move on. The listener wants to move on. Just say yes.

[A]

I think the listener does want to move on.

[C]

This isn't a commitment. You can't even just surface level. Agree to this for me.

[B]

I'll. I'll do it.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Or him.

[C]

I barely know. I barely know this guy. He's going to spend two weeks on the lone surge over me.

[A]

What a strange request to ask someone to do whatever.

[C]

Zach, your true color show. I get it.

[B]

Is the Lone Star Trail in Texas.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's, like, not. It's not even hard.

[B]

Where does it start in. What's the start point?

[C]

In the middle of nowhere to the middle of nowhere, over. Flat and boring.

[B]

Does it go over Guadalupe Peak at all?

[C]

Probably not.

[A]

There's no peaks.

[C]

It's literally flying. Boring.

[A]

You gain.

[C]

Like, I'm trying to get him to do it.

[A]

I did the first 30 miles about a decade ago.

[C]

I thought I meant more to you. Yeah, I'm taking this really personally.

[A]

What a absolute batshit crazy request to make from someone to honor your death.

[C]

That if I died under 50, I want you to go hike the L.

[A]

If I die, you have to eat a whole bowl of. And you have to think about me the entire time? Like that's effectively what you're asking.

[C]

Make you eat feces?

[A]

Well, why wouldn't you ask me to go do a trail that I enjoyed in your honor? Or at least that you enjoyed? You said there's nothing. There's nothing tying you to the lower Lone Star Trail. You just want me to suffer.

[C]

And you're back five minutes, you said, what's the worst trail I can make you do? The American Discovery.

[A]

How quickly did I acknowledge that I was joking?

[C]

Okay. Can you go do the most butterfly, flowery, beautiful trail in the world and give me the. It sounds like I have a fucking crush on you.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

You know, if you want me to

[A]

go out and suffer, then I don't

[C]

want you to see beauty and think of me. This isn't that kind of relationship. I want you to suffer and think about me.

[A]

What a entirely psychotic take to have, Charles.

[C]

That's not psychotic at all.

[A]

Very psychotic.

[C]

I think Jenna would be really. Is really respectful of my take.

[A]

Have you been listening to our guest? That he goes out and does these incredible things to honor the lives of those that are no longer with us? This isn't a romantic thing. He wasn't. These people.

[C]

Jenna would appreciate me being like, go to the most beautiful mountaintop and think she's gonna be like, what the were you doing in that studio for nine years?

[A]

Why can't we just be friends that are honoring each other's.

[C]

And as friends, we honor each other by making ourselves do stupid. I want you to do two weeks in the Lone Star Trail. Yeah. That's where they give me the whole time.

[A]

That's where the break happened here.

[C]

We're not. We're not real friends. I get it. I won't even send you a postcard when I move.

[A]

Yeah. So what's next. What's. What's next on the. On the docket for you?

[B]

Yeah. So I'm about ready to go out to the Pacific Northwest middle of this month. I'm going to do Hood Adams, St. Helens. Rainier. I got a solo permit for Rainier.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah. Which would be sick.

[A]

Rainiers, to my understanding. Pretty technical. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I know. In your wheelhouse, obviously, but by, like, U.S. mountain standards.

[B]

Yeah. Crevasses, you know, glaciated. It's super difficult to get a permit. A solo permit for it. Yeah. So I was stoked to do that. I'm gonna do two ascents of it. One a single push, and then one. A solo one. And then Baker Mount Blanc in June. And then, I don't know, just keep knocking out other peaks around here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just normal.

[A]

And then obviously, this begs the question, when do you have the PCT on the roadmap?

[B]

I know, I know. I'm thinking 27. Next year. This year, I had to take a break from through hiking. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I got a little burnout on the azt, even though it was used as a indic or systematic for training for Denali.

[A]

Burnt out in what way?

[C]

Ah,

[B]

I just. I've kind of fell in love more with mountaineering than through hiking.

[A]

Is it. Would you give yourself permission to let go of the triple crown dream if, like, that's the way that you feel? No, no, no.

[B]

I'm gonna triple Crown.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You do two, you gotta do three. Sure. I mean.

[C]

And say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's crazy, though, because people. I met a British couple on the CDT that had no desire to do the at.

[C]

We've both done, too.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Neither of us have done the cdt. I mean, I can tell you, if you ask Zach, he probably won't do it, because even if you were like, I'm dying, and you know, he would

[A]

say no, but I'd eventually like to do it, but taking six months off is not an option for me.

[B]

Do it in sections. Yeah.

[A]

I think that's the game plan. Eventually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I. I've just heard so many great things about the pct. I def. I wanted amazing.

[C]

It was my first one. It's my first love.

[B]

And there's nothing like your first through. Right. I experienced that on the AT versus the cdt, the CT and the.

[C]

So you don't know what you should do yet. You don't know the routine. You don't know that I got to get up and go and. So you can lollygag in the morning or in town or anywhere without that personal regret or, like, that personal pressure because you don't know any better. And then once you get onto your second trail, like, for me, it was the 80. It was like, I feel bad sleeping in because I know the miles I have to make. And it's like the. The not oblivion, but the. Whatever is bliss. What is it?

[B]

Ignorance is.

[C]

Ignorance is bliss. It's that on your first trail, we're like that. The first 700 miles of the PCT in the desert. Ignorance is freaking bliss. I took 14 zeros.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

In the desert. And it was like, I had the time of my life.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, but you couldn't catch me doing that. On the at. Because I knew better.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's almost less fun.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely a nostalgia to that first one, you know, and all the stories I've heard, it just. It sounds beautiful. It sounds so, like wonderful.

[A]

Yeah. So it's pretty magical.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're gonna love it. But you also have to be hungry for a through hike. I think.

[B]

I think I will be hungry. Taking this year off from through hiking. I think it's resetting.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, because I did the at, the ct, the cdt, the azt, like that's look other people do a lot more. I get it. There's triple crowners out there one year. Right. It's not a race. But all that for me was a little. It was a little much.

[C]

So my last question we heard quotes. He's got enough blazing rewards at Buffalo Wild Wings to retire off of. Please explain.

[B]

Oh my God, that's hilarious. I do have a lot of ice rewards in Buffalo Wild. Let me see how much I have right now.

[A]

I didn't even know Buffalo Wild Wings had a rewards program.

[B]

Oh, hell yeah. Dude, they got us. Fantastic.

[C]

Did we ever give Rachel the raise? Remember that time we were drunk on air and we were like, we should give Rachel a raise.

[A]

She had to listen to the episode to get it.

[C]

Did she ever tell us to give her a raise? We should give her another one. I have 57,000 points because that was a Rachel Fine. 57,000.

[B]

57,000.

[C]

What does that mean in dollars? Is that like three flights to Thailand?

[B]

No, it's not. Well, not that.

[A]

Is it a dollar per point?

[B]

Not a dollar. I could throw a sick ass super bowl party. Yeah, yeah. I mean like 30 wings is.

[A]

So I'm looking at the actual graphic of. It looks like a thermometer type shape.

[C]

$81 for all.

[B]

No, that means I've just spent $81 this year to get to the reward level for next year.

[A]

So when was your big. Yeah. Buffalo Wild Wings spending days it.

[B]

They were throughout my career in the military and just.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Here in town and whatnot.

[A]

Has Buffalo Wild Wings gone downhill or.

[B]

I personally think.

[A]

Okay, I can't. There's one by where I live and I used to go to it every single week in Madison. There was one on State street and it was amazing. And they had Sunday ticket and it was just a really cool spot. And I've always had a fond spot in my heart for Buffalo Wild Wings for that reason. And I recently went to the one by my house and it sucks so much. Dick. I like. I can't. There's other good wings around. I can't go back.

[C]

Okay. I did the Math with his 5050, 57,221 points. And so you know this, too. You could get 429 boneless wings.

[B]

That's a lot of boneless wings.

[A]

It's a good day.

[B]

That's a good day.

[C]

That's a good super bowl party.

[B]

As you described it. It's a good zero day.

[A]

That's funny.

[C]

What's your go to flavor?

[B]

Probably the spicy garlic sauce or a dry rub. I like dry rub on wings. Like desert heat and the lemon pepper. Dry rub. Yeah. I will eat the hell out of those. But I like this. The sauce on the boneless. It's unfortunate it gets in my.

[A]

Here on a Monday because King of Wings. We could go kick him over. There's a really good wing spot here, but they're closing on Monday.

[C]

I was thinking it's unfortunate he likes dry rub because I just lost all relatability.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[C]

She thought we got along.

[B]

I thought, I've heard homegrown dough and tap is, like, legit up here.

[C]

You're fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know if I've been there.

[C]

I think I've ordered from them. It's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Woody says good wings.

[A]

Woody's wings are good. Yeah.

[C]

Fire on the Mountain has good wings. It was. No, it was. Mountain sun had the best, biggest, fattest mountain.

[A]

Mountain sun is legit. It's a different. It's a very different style.

[C]

I keep thinking, though, every time I

[A]

look for them, I haven't been back in a while.

[C]

I don't know. They'll just decide when they're open. But they were really good ones.

[A]

Yeah. Anyhow, we're gonna wrap with our sponsor. Question.

[B]

Can I ask a question?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Where the hell did you get that from?

[C]

What?

[B]

The Buffalo Wild Wings thing. Where the hell did that.

[C]

I'm in the show. Notes.

[A]

Rachel.

[C]

Rachel. We pay her and she types things here for us. She wrote. So she writes all these notes and sometimes if she has a comment, she'll write it in red so we know it's her thought and not just like a thought. And so she put questions. Intro. What was your trail name? Origin story. How'd you get into backpacking? Was there. What was your time in the army like? We heard he's got enough blazing rewards at Buffalo Wild Wings to retire off of. And that's in quotes. Please explain. And then. But that's just. Intro. And then it goes into main stuff. Seems like you're pretty list motivated with your outdoor feeds. Can you describe that your Ursac froze 5814 er, three out of seven summits. Any plan to complete your triple crown? Standard questions. He has answered the ones in bold. Rachel does all of this.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

But she must have stalked you somewhere and found that.

[B]

Yeah. That's wild.

[C]

So I can't. Personally, I can't take credit for that. Even though I asked it. That's. It's all Rachel. She does the. She's really good at her job.

[B]

That's crazy.

[C]

Yeah. She deserves a raise. Rachel, you have a raise. Rachel, message Zach and ask about her. Your raise and tell him that you're due two of them. I don't work here anymore.

[A]

Do you want to co host Rachel?

[C]

Really? That'd be great. I think she would scare people.

[A]

No, she's so sweet in person.

[C]

No, she is, but she's just so smart. And by things where she asked me something, I'd be like, what do you

[B]

already know Katie seems like she'd be a good ghost.

[C]

Jackson.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, I think so too.

[B]

Yeah. Double dip.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Katie's the best.

[C]

Well, Jess has done some episodes too. She would be really good at it. And Elise has done some episodes and she would be good at it.

[B]

Yeah. Elisa ought, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

I try to view this in like a, you know, like I am stepping out of the seat so you can step in, not you're taking the seat from me kind of way.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And Katie would be really good at it. Elise would be really good at it. Jess has stepped in and she would be really good at it. And she already comes here every day, so that would make sense. Like I've thought through every possible scenario, but those three girls would be really good at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I like already hired her replacement.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

If I. You didn't tell me I had the option.

[A]

You don't.

[C]

Yeah. I like the idea of it being a girl because I think that, you know, if it was a job in my seat. That's very masculine. No. No issue with you jobs. If you're listening to this, I just.

[A]

Charles doesn't like Jabba.

[C]

No, I don't I don't not like him. I don't not like him. I just think that we can. Without boundaries on each other ruthlessly.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't not like that kind of person. I just feel. I feel a level of comfort where I'm gonna see you and immediately just on you and vice versa. Yeah. It's a different relationship.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think she's got a good point about having a female, though. I mean, he brings two different perspectives.

[C]

Oh, that was originally Zach's. I can't take the credit. Zach thought that when he found me, so, you know, so this day.

[A]

Salty question presented by Element.

[C]

Don't laugh like that. I'm not saying anything stupid.

[A]

No, I'm laughing at the horrendous segue.

[C]

It's a great segue. They love the chaos.

[A]

It's a bad segue, and they love the chaos.

[C]

When you have a guest host that can't entertain, they will miss this.

[A]

Oh, you're at. You are entertainment.

[C]

Good. They'll miss it. Giving them something to cry about.

[A]

I agree. Use our code or use our URL drinklement.com trek for a free sample pack with your order. Do you have a hottest take in the world of backpacking or mountaineering, whatever it might be?

[B]

Yeah, I don't. I don't really. Yeah.

[A]

Unconventional wisdom or something that you feel like you do differently than the average hiker?

[B]

Yeah, I don't know. I got nothing on that. I'm sorry.

[C]

Do you have any pet peeves? Like, you see someone on trail with this one thing, and you're like, fucking hate that guy.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I can sign off on that.

[C]

That's a rage. I see it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You feel feelings.

[B]

Yeah, I'm triggered.

[C]

What do you. Do you tell them?

[B]

What's that?

[C]

Do you tell them?

[B]

No, I. I secretly judge as I walk by. And, you know, the other one is honestly, dogs off leash. That really upsets me, too, because you don't know if that dog is going to be freaking. I. Your dog is awesome. Right?

[C]

No, I know. I'm listening to you and I'm saying sometimes, like, you got to. You got to take accountability for your own faults on things. I know sometimes. Sometimes I take a rough leash. So I. I'm hearing this in not a defensive way, but in a. This is the other side that I do need to hear.

[B]

You know, I have encountered a very aggressive dog that was off leash and shouldn't have been off leash.

[C]

Well, the thing about Harper, like, Harper could be the sweetest girl in the world, but there could be my nail person, for example, and I don't go to her regularly anymore because I moved. But she was so sweet, Helen, and she came from Vietnam, and we've had so many fun stories together. I love going to see her, but she's terrified of dogs. And so one time I was going somewhere with Harper, and I left Harper in the car. And she saw Harper in the car and she got scared. I'm like, Helen, like I'm. She's not coming in. Like we're okay. And it was like, some people, your dog can be the friendliest in the world. You don't know what the other person.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Feels about it. And so I absolutely hear you on that. I try to only do it with Harper when it's not crowded, but anyone could point a finger at me and be like, you could do better there. And I don't take what you're saying in a any way. I could do better there. I just love my dog so much that I'm willing to be an and some.

[B]

She's awesome though, from what I've seen. I've never met her in person.

[C]

Right. But, but I'm not. But I agree with you what you're saying. Valid.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Valid Bluetooth speakers, dogs off leash.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What else?

[B]

Or, or going up to a 14er at 1 o' clock in the afternoon and not, you know, carrying any of the necessary gear. Just a 12 ounce bottle of water.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like that's. Come on.

[C]

Do you come down the 14 or and see the people still going up all the time. Bite your tongue all the time.

[B]

I don't bite my tongue. I. Every once in a while I might give some advice. I might say, where are you from? Have you climbed one before?

[A]

That could be life saving advice.

[B]

Yeah. I mean I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to know.

[C]

Okay, I've got one more spin off question and this is also maybe a stay salty, but I was thinking, thinking this earlier. If you were 18 today, would you go back down the, the army route the same way you did then?

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

Yes or no, what's your pitch?

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

To someone on the fence that's thinking about it. We give so we give so many opinions on everything. What's your pitch on this?

[B]

My pitch on this is that is it's going to give you life skills. You're going to meet people that you're going to have camaraderie with for the rest of your life. They are like lifelong friends and they will be, they will do anything for you. They'll cut off a arm for you if you need them, you know, and you're going to have experiences that are going to shape you and mold you and give you a foundation that's going to help you be successful later on in life. Will it be messy? Will it suck? Yeah. But it's worth it in the end.

[C]

Question for My intrinsic mind. What about the what? The ever present dying fear. How do you get over that?

[B]

People die every day. People die every day. You could die driving home tonight.

[C]

I'm not eating a really good stay salty day.

[B]

I'm not putting that out in the ether. I'm not manifesting that. I'm just saying the level of risk, yes, it might be elevated while you deploy, but the level of risk of dying within this world as a human is there every day. It doesn't matter.

[C]

What you don't realize you're doing is you're actually perfectly segment segueing me into my bonus segment. Oh, that we're gonna do. So it's my boy.

[A]

A second.

[C]

No, it's not. It's my turn.

[B]

Uhuh.

[A]

You did it last time.

[C]

No, it's not. I came prepared.

[A]

I know, but last time you came unprepared and it was your turn.

[C]

We've recorded since. Oh, no, we just did the segments. Oh.

[A]

Anyways, stay tuned for Zach's bonus segment.

[B]

Oh no.

[C]

I was so looking forward to it. Do you want to switch?

[A]

No, we're. We're taking turn. We're going to have more podcasts. It's fine.

[C]

According to you, not many. I'm washed up. I'm on my way out.

[A]

You're leaving?

[C]

I looked up all the different ways people could die.

[A]

Near miss. Where should people go to keep up with you?

[B]

Oh, I'm on insta PaulBunyan214. I don't know why there's 214 of those out there, but there are.

[C]

Because you love Valentine's Day. You love love.

[B]

I've never thought about that.

[C]

Do you love love?

[B]

I have a healthy respect for love.

[A]

He likes love.

[C]

Are you looking for love?

[B]

I'm content where I'm at right now.

[A]

He loves pink.

[C]

He's looking for love. So if you're watching on YouTube, send him a good message.

[B]

But yeah, Paul Bunny at 214.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

And then Facebook for the old geezers out there. Right. My generation, Steven Palazzo.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Steven, you're awesome. Thank you very much for enjoying this show.

[B]

Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Seriously. Yeah.

[C]

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[A]

Now we're non bonus segments. Just good old fashioned regular ass segments. But we learned a lot in that one.

[C]

As we should on all of them.

[A]

So much geography.

[C]

Yeah, North Carolina sucks. Who would move there?

[A]

Whoa.

[C]

I don't have any friends there so if you live in the Raleigh area, let me know.

[B]

Was it okay I talked on that one?

[A]

You can talk the entire time.

[C]

You need to stop apologizing is what you need to do.

[A]

He didn't apologize.

[C]

No, but he's apologized a lot throughout this.

[A]

He has.

[C]

I need him to stop doubting himself.

[A]

I'll admit I haven't had a chance to read this one yet, so we're gonna go through it together. This is from All Star Peg Leg. God, I've been so fucking busy of late. This is seven all two common signs of entitlement I've noticed in the through hiking community. Title speak for speaks for itself. Let's see which ones we want to go with here. How about number one, being ungrateful or expecting too much? There is immense generosity and support in the thru hiking community. Whether that be hikers helping other hikers, hostel owners providing rides and Other assistance or trail angels feeding and offering other services to hikers. That assistance isn't something that should be taken for granted, but it can be a common occurrence depending on which National Scenic trail you are hiking. Jump down to number four here. Not looking out for other hikers on trail. Over the years I have not only witnessed hikers disrespect hostile owners, shuttle operators and trail angels, but also each other. Even hikers who think themselves kind, engaged and polite might unknowingly be overlooking the needs of other hikers. And number seven, this one is a thing I think we've all seen classic thinking the rules don't apply to you through Hikers make up less than 1% of visitors on National Scenic Trails each year. The majority of individuals supporting these trails are actually those doing maintenance day hikes and weekend trips. But when you spend all of your time out on trail, it can begin to feel like you have a special privilege.

[B]

That's huge. Yeah, I see that here in Colorado all the time though too. Just with like day hikes.

[A]

Yeah it's. And it's a good thing. I think that the thriking community is self policing this because. Yeah, but I will say it is easy to let your mind kind of wander in that realm because people, especially on a trail like the at you get so much positive feedback on what you're doing that it kind of builds you up to make you feel special and to let that go to your head and start to act that way is not the appropriate way to go through these trails and towns. Yeah, I think it's good when we self police like that. And Peg leg did did a great

[C]

job with this 4 is hard too because not looking out for other hikers. There's a part of it where like if you've seen a trail where someone else has done another trail and it's your first trail or like they know more than you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But going in like for when I went into the AT having come from a different trail like I she's an overthinker but in my mind I was like imagine someone gives you the trail name tips because you just can't stop giving tips to people. You just think you, you know, like this is the I would beat myself up about. But it's like a fine line between how do I give someone advice on what they're doing that could be better without not letting them live and learn for themselves. And I know that's not like what the first half of this has said, but I could see that being hard for not looking out for other hikers on trail, where it's like, what part do you want them to learn themselves versus what part do you want to sound like a know it all?

[A]

You know, it is tough to give unsolicited advice in today's environment because there's so much condensation. And I think, mind you, the part of the.

[C]

The part of the paragraph where it says disrespecting hostile ownership, whatever, like, yeah, say something for sure. You know, that's not what I'm talking about. But I'm saying in terms of not. Not looking out for them, there's an other side where it's like, I don't. You don't want to be the person that's not letting someone learn for themselves or that's. That's explaining something to them that they could figure because that's part of the journey, you know? Yeah, it's tough.

[A]

But I also. I learned a lot on the at, especially from other hikers, and a lot of it was unsolicited advice. And I'm not defensive about that stuff, especially if it's somebody that I rapport by, that built a rapport, and, like, somebody that, like, I actually know has more experience than me. I think that's part of the issue is, like, we get a lot of the keyboard warriors that don't know as much as they think, but, you know,

[C]

they have more experience from you because you've built a rapport.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Like, if I saw someone hiking, and I'm saying this because I have on the at, I saw someone hiking in front of me that had their shoes, their spare shoes, dangling from their pack, swinging back and forth, going uphill. And in my brain, I'm like, that's pulling you back every time it swings, and that's actually countering, and that's gonna make it harder for you. But it's like, how worthwhile is this tip? Tips in my brain to stop the person and tell them versus letting them figure it out, you know?

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, like, obviously it's heavy and inefficient, but it's not, like, dangerous or anything like that. So, like, Steven's point before, he'll give comments to people that are starting a 14 or, like, in the early afternoon where they're putting their lives at risk. Like, that's a scenario where some unsolicited advice, whether it's received well or not, is the right thing to do because it could be saving someone's life. So there's obviously a lot of different angles here.

[C]

I'm, I'm not countering. Yeah, I'm a, I'm agreeing. And for sure, it's like, I'd rather be the dick that says something out of turn. And then you think about it and you don't die.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, like, okay, cool. One minute of shame for me, you're alive.

[A]

I mean, it's also really easy to be like, actually, trail runners are better than like, I love boots. You like, don't. I don't. I'm not asking for this.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Why does it have to be like, it's my way or, you know, it's so polarized. Everything today is so polarized. For sure. It's, look, do what you want to do what works for you, for you.

[C]

But what I'm saying is I, and again, love Peg Leg. I'm not saying anything about this has nothing to do with her article. I'm, I'm making a side tangent. I have no qualms with the quality of her opinions or writing. But what I'm saying is in terms of, like, not looking out for other hikers, if I, I, I don't think it shows entitlement for me to not tell you, hey, I think that this might be a, A not great decision unless it's truly dangerous. Yeah, if it's truly dangerous, sure. But I don't, I don't think I'm acting too cool for school because I'm not willing to talk to you about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think there's a part of the other side where it's like, I don't want to overstep. And in, in contrast to acting too cool for school, I don't want to act like a know it all where I don't let you get those lived experiences. You know, it's like a hard balance.

[B]

It's a very thin line.

[C]

So I think there's very thin. And there are people that are too, too cool for school in terms of they won't give you the time. Trust me, as a 5:1 girl, I've seen it where they won't give you the time of day because you're not on their caliber. And that's completely different. Yeah, but you don't always have to, you know, like, wait out.

[A]

Right.

[C]

You don't always have to go and be like, hey, I think you're doing this wrong. Otherwise I'm entitled.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But you get very little from the, from the snippets of this, which is

[B]

why I say it the hostile one. I feel like when I was on the AT Hostel owners had a very good connected network. And if there was a troublesome hiker that was moving through the. Oh, yeah, the at, they know. Yeah.

[C]

It travels to this day.

[B]

Yeah. Still to this day.

[C]

Like, you'll talk to Shaws up in Monstead and like, they're connected with Woods Hole. They're connected with all those places. And they know.

[B]

They know and they should. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

That's. So it's. It's another part of the at, or just the trail in general, where it's like everything is connected. And then, you know, you get branded

[B]

as guy for sure or gal.

[C]

But for. On the hostile owner side, you help. You help each other. Where it's like if you see someone that's a problem, you help each other by letting each other know, hey, this person might come and this and that, and. Yeah, that's good for people to know. In general, it's like, hey, this isn't if. If you're gonna act out in one place, that's not an isolated incident.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, this is a network of communication and we all talk and it'll go back to people. It's not just like, you got too drunk in this one town and no one will ever know again because you're leaving. Leaving the town.

[B]

Yeah, I feel like it's not like that on the cdt. I've not done the pct, so I can't speak to that. But the CDT was so. It seemed so disconnected.

[A]

Yeah. It's harder too, because I think the AT is really unique in that you really can go from hostile to hostel. Whereas, like, on the pct, there's not really that many hostels. You're staying at motels and sometimes at an Airbnb, whatever it might be. But it's not like a hostile network like the at. He's pretty unique in that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Question of the day. This one's mine. So it's implied that I don't know the answer. I did look it up, but I want to hypothesize amongst us to see if we can get somewhere close to what the answer is. Why does a Sawyer filter last a lifetime, but you're supposed to swap a Brita every few months because they're built to.

[C]

That's my answer. Because they're built to. And production is money and features that

[A]

obsolescence is what you're saying.

[C]

No, it. There is a cost to produce versus cost to sell in a consumer environment and for people that are Britta users, they are not using on the scale that Sawyer is So they don't need as many precautions. Probably. I haven't looked this up. This isn't me coming in with a point. This is my.

[A]

No, I love it. Hypothesize.

[C]

But if you're a Birdie user, you're expecting them to change every three to six weeks. You're not expecting them to use any water that is like a random stream. You're expecting them to use tap. You're not expecting a lot of different variables. So you build them differently. And. And you have the red light on the sensor that says replace it. And if it costs more to produce to do these extra filters and checks and your margins are smaller. As a business, that doesn't make sense. So they're not going to do it versus somewhere like Sawyer. If you're putting your neck on the line to say we will work in these different conditions, you need to go the extra mile for these things. I don't know if you came with an answer, but that's my guess.

[A]

I didn't have an answer.

[C]

Oh, that's my. Okay, that's my guess.

[A]

I know the answer, but I didn't have the answer.

[C]

If I randomly dial Travis, I bet he'd answer and answer us.

[A]

Let's. It's 11 o' clock this time. Let's not do that to him.

[C]

I just don't want to leave any thoughts.

[A]

Stephen Johnson's gonna do a marathon. Yeah.

[C]

I'm gonna make these last as long as possible.

[A]

I can tell.

[C]

Buckle up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you supposed to change your Britter filter every three to six weeks?

[A]

No, no, no, I don't.

[C]

But apparently the filter light changes to red and you are like. Like the same way you're supposed to change your H vac filters.

[B]

I don't know. The last time I changed mine.

[A]

I think the light is on a timer. I don't think it's actually a sensor.

[C]

Well, it's not going to kill you.

[A]

No, no. I'm just saying it's not. I don't think it's sensing anything. I think it's just like it's a timer.

[C]

You don't think these things are built to last? These Brita filters went in for two years.

[A]

What I'm saying is the red light goes off after a certain period of time and not. Not like a. It detects that. It's got so much tread on the tires left.

[B]

They have to be built differently though, right? I mean, you can put a Sawyer through a freaking cow. Like a chocolate milk cow pond.

[C]

Yeah, because they're expecting to be like, like if you're. Think about this. If you're a Sawyer and you're manufacturing these for long distance hikers, you expect that they're putting them through mossy green gross cow ponds in Mexico on the cdt. If you're Brita, you got like a blonde, a blonde housewife in a Lululemon who's like gotta fill her kids water bottle for soccer.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, it's not the same water that you're dealing with.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think that for me is the difference is that with Brita, the target audience of the type of water is tap. Where with Sawyer, the target audience of the type of water is typhoid, malaria, whatever fucking puddle you can find on the side of the road. The stakes are different.

[B]

Yeah. Is that the answer?

[A]

Chant's pretty close.

[C]

Yeah. You said you didn't look it up.

[A]

I mean, now I know the answer.

[C]

Oh, you did look it up.

[A]

I. I conceded that I didn't know the answer. It was my question, so at the time I asked it, I had no idea.

[C]

But you have since looked it up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Great.

[C]

What's the answer?

[A]

That they are just one, different technologies and two, designed to do entirely different things. And also that there is a maintenance component to the Sawyer squeeze. Like the Sawyer squeeze will fuck up if you don't backflip.

[B]

You gotta back flush.

[A]

You're not doing anything.

[B]

You're not gonna backflush.

[A]

You throw it away. Yeah, but a Sawyer to Trance's point is meant to remove bacteria and protozoa by physically blocking them. Again, this only works if you are actively back flushing it and maintaining it. Whereas a Brita is more about taste. It's not like removing things that are gonna get you sick. Because it is tap water. I. I assume it would fail at that if you try to use it that way. How they fill up the sawyer works like a microscopic sieve. Gets clogged by particles. But you can backflip to clear it. As long as fibers aren't damaged, performance mostly returns. Nothing inside is being chemically used up. Brita uses adsorption. Not absorption, but adsorption. Carbon binding contaminants. The carbon has a finite capacity. Once binding sites are full, it stops working effectively. You can't clean or reset it.

[B]

That's what I was gonna say. They both work off of like carbon to filterize the water. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. So Sawyer uses a physical membrane to block bacteria and protozoa.

[B]

It doesn't block neuro though. Yeah.

[A]

Brita uses activated carbon that chemically absorbs contaminants like chlorine and metal, but has limited capacity capacity.

[B]

So they're absorbing different types of contaminants.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One is more taste and I guess some health. But like not the kind that prevents you from your pants.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Relentlessly. Right.

[C]

So.

[B]

But that was pretty well though. I mean.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know they've started making their own. You know how they had C Knock bags for so long? Sawyer makes their own CNOC bag now they.

[A]

I think they've branded a C Knock bag.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They just. Yeah, but that's a game changer because the original Sawyer bags are like cool. Do you want to get your hands cut up? Filtering water.

[B]

Why would they put that.

[A]

They've never been good. And they're aware of that. I mean, at least the person that we know there is aware. But they did the right thing and partnered with a company that has figured it out. So. Yeah. Those Canuck bags are awesome. I have a stupid thing of the week, but I'm gonna save it for.

[C]

No, come on. I don't want to leave.

[A]

I understand.

[C]

I don't want to go home.

[A]

The good news is I have another bonus segment and I do want to go home, but I have another bonus segment outside of our.

[C]

Well, you know what? You shouldn't told me we only have like five or six left. Because that was really where I started to spiral.

[A]

I assume Garrett wants to go home. There's probably on right now.

[C]

No offense, Garrett. I love you so much. I don't care if he wants to go home. He's here for me. You're supporting me. I'm the moment.

[A]

I'm going to North Carolina. You can sit here and watch.

[C]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that. I am. The moment is around me right now. He is here to support me and he will stay here as long as I want.

[A]

He's supporting me and my desire to get some sleep.

[C]

I get it. You can go home. You can go to sleep. I'm just having. I just don't want to let go. I just don't want to. This is processing part seven. I'm just not ready to let go. So I'm trying to drag all these conversations out as long as possible. Defense mechanism.

[A]

Triple crown. This is a unique triple crown, cuz. This is a sponsored triple crown. What?

[C]

I want to know why you cried wolf. Whatever.

[A]

Oh, I'm going to. We'll save that for the next one. It is. It is a funny story, but we're going to save it.

[C]

Save it for the one when I'm not here anymore.

[A]

This is the triple crown sponsored by Onyx backcountry. Save 70% off a premium plan at Onyx Back country with code Trek70 from now through Memorial Day. So you don't have much time to act on that. But thank you to Onyx for supporting us here. This is the given our guest. I think this will be a fun combo. Triple count. Triple crown of mountain peaks. Take it in any direction you want to take it.

[B]

Can we just do 14ers could do whatever you want.

[A]

You could pick international peaks. You could pick. I have one that's debatably not even a peak, but I'm gonna pick it anyway.

[B]

Which one?

[A]

Well, we'll get there. So it's a snake draft. Do you want to go first?

[B]

What is snake draft?

[A]

So snake draft means it'd be you chomps me. And then we reverse back like the

[C]

body of a snake. It turns back.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He gets two and then you get two.

[A]

So if you go first, then your last pick in the second round.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The third pick in the first round.

[B]

Okay. Pyramid. Pyramid Peak.

[A]

Which is where?

[B]

It's in the Maroon Bells wilderness.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it's. It's amazing. It's awesome. It's so chill for a Class 4, too. Like, it's not Class 4. I'm gonna die. It's Class 4. Like, fun.

[A]

I see why it's called Pyramid Peak.

[B]

Yeah. It looks exactly like a pyramid. And when you get up there past the saddle, it's all these blocky rock type formations. It looks like Egyptians brought blocks up there.

[C]

There.

[A]

It looks a little bit like Maroon Bells as well.

[B]

It does, yeah. Yeah. Because it's right adjacent to them. I mean, it's literally right across from them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So it has the same type of G. Not what a geology or whatever.

[C]

Geological.

[B]

Geological formations.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

Yeah. It's so badass, man. That's my fave. 14er for sure. Great.

[A]

Great pick.

[C]

Is it you or me?

[A]

It's you.

[C]

Okay. I. This one was really hard for me. As she drags it out. I can't remember the views from a lot of them in terms of like a standout way. It all blends. Like it's one of those jaded things where it all blends together. So mine is either views of mountains that I think look cool.

[A]

Yeah, I've got one of those.

[C]

If the mountains look cool, that's probably

[A]

the more important thing, frankly.

[C]

Right.

[A]

The best view of the peak is the peak. Oftentimes that's kind of what I'm from the peak. Yeah.

[C]

Okay. So my first one, none of. In retrospect, they all start to look the same so I can't differentiate them. It's very difficult for me. I would say one of mine is Maroon Bells in Colorado. And I hate to say that because you just said something so. But you didn't know. But Maroon Bells. I moved out to Colorado before long distance hiking and so things. I wasn't as jaded as the time. Things still looked more unique and cool. There were no permits or buses or any of that at the time. It was like a drive up and do and it was just different. And I thought that for where I was at in life in 2015, 2016 and where I mentally was when I got there and saw it, I think that was a cool view. You know, it's a great pick.

[A]

Rebels are beautiful. Maroon peaks.

[C]

Yeah. I mean but it's not like the most awe like it. I'm not. It's not like a sweeping vista. You know, like I'm not telling someone go here because you're. If someone goes there, they're gonna be like, why?

[A]

They're probably also gonna die if they get to the peak. Without the requisite skills.

[C]

Let it be known I never went to the peak.

[A]

Yeah. You're just talking about the view of it. But yeah.

[C]

Crater Lake, the well manicured Ada Trail that went up to the water. I stood there and looked at it.

[A]

I disagree. I think that it will take your breath away. I think Room Bells is very pretty

[C]

even if you haven't had your breath taken away yet.

[B]

Sure. There wasn't a permit system back then.

[C]

No. Even with like with quandary, for example. Quandary. Now you need to get a permit to even park in the parking lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

When I did quandary, it was when. So I had left. I left California because I'd gone through a breakup and I was like, I'm Addie. And I was driving back east and I stopped in Denver because I had a friend here. And on my way in, I slept in Breckenridge because I was living out of my car and I had googled in the morning trails to hike in Breckenridge and the top rated one was quandary. So 10am I wake up, I drove there, I parked in the parking lot, I started hiking it. I didn't even know what a fourteener was was. And I got, you know, I got to the top. I met this lovely bachelor party that was hiking it. We went out later that night they brought me into the fold. We. We fended off some horned goats together. But, you know, you. It was so. You just don't know it's a thing yet. And now to hear that you can't even go into the parking lot. It's like, I'm glad I did it when I did.

[B]

Yeah. I think they regulated during the summer. Summer. During the winter, it's. It's full. It's. Oh, it's like, full on. Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I'm not competing in the winter.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You don't need to worry about me doing that.

[B]

Quandary's so fun, though. That's such a great.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Great one to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It looks like somebody took a chainsaw and, like, cut half of it off. You know when you sit there and look at it, because it's got that summit that, like. Because there's a flat portion, and then it just kind of goes up like that.

[C]

I hate.

[B]

So bizarre.

[C]

I hate to sound unknowledgeable, but I was sleeping in my car in a fancy, ritzy neighborhood of Breckenridge, and I woke up and said, what can I do today? And Googled it, and it said this one. And I went and did it where it was like I. Until I saw that picture on your phone where it literally had the arrow and said, quandary. Couldn't have told you. Couldn't. Told you.

[B]

That's the first one you did.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I didn't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you don't know it's hard. And, you know it's supposed to be difficult, and you don't know it's supposed to be a thing. A thing. Until you know.

[B]

Yeah. I didn't know the fact that you started at 10am and you finished. So that's. That's pretty impressive.

[C]

But you don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. Like, if there's a pressure, then it, like, weighs more. But if you walking to where they tell me to walk and then I turn around.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You don't know to be afraid yet.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[C]

And that was something for me with snow. It was like you learned to. You learn to have a healthy amount of fear for it. But I also miss when I had no fear for it because I didn't know any better.

[B]

Yeah. Ignorance is bliss.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it my turn?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Nope.

[A]

I got two. I'm gonna go. I have also not done this peak, but this is the one that I'm just always most in awe of in every circumstance is Mount Rainier.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which you're about to go do.

[B]

Yeah, I did it last year too.

[A]

Oh, you did it last year also? Fuck yeah.

[B]

In preparation for Denon. But yeah.

[A]

Hell yeah, it's.

[B]

Dude, you want to go?

[C]

I'll go do you. When are you going?

[B]

This month?

[C]

This month? What days?

[B]

I'm doing a speed ascent on the 23rd, so a single push and then I have a solo permit for the 30th.

[C]

How fast? Well, hold on. How fast is a single push? I don't want to hold the guy back.

[B]

Thousand feet an hour of elevation gain.

[C]

Yeah, I can't do that. I can't do that.

[A]

It's pretty fast.

[C]

You can't do that. 5 1.

[A]

Is that with like crampons and everything? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

You want to add £100 to your back?

[B]

If you seriously want. Both of you, if you seriously want to go, I will go with you. I. I have the skills and expertise. I could take you up.

[C]

I would do the second half. Well, I would do Rainier with you in the second half of May.

[A]

I don't have flexibility right now.

[C]

You're gonna have to baby the out of me, though. I'm a pussy. I'm scared of heights. I get vertigo. I. I like I. But you know what? I'll do it. I don't. I don't. Here's the thing. I don't say no. I won't. I won't. I won't. Out of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But it will be an experience for you to drag me through it. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[C]

I just don't want to sell you a story that's not real. I want you to go into it knowing what you're signing up for.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

You still interested?

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

Even knowing that you're gonna have to.

[A]

I want to.

[C]

Mentally. You're gonna have to mentally coddle me the whole way.

[B]

Yeah, I will. I will take you up, Rainier. You want to go up?

[C]

What day do you want to go?

[B]

I could fit it in between my the 23rd and the 24th and then my solo ascent on the 30th. So anyway, permits. We could get a permit. So they reserve 30 of the permits when you for walk ups. So if you get there early enough of the ranger station a Paris US we would go the disappointment Cleaver route though, just DC we're not going to do Emmons Glacier or anything.

[C]

I don't know what any of that means. I'm actually going to not do any research because I don't want to scare myself. I'M just going to follow you where you tell me to go with what gear you say.

[B]

Do you have crampons?

[C]

Yeah, I have.

[B]

Do you have an ice axe? Yep, I have the ice ax.

[C]

Yeah. And I'll buy a new one if I don't.

[B]

Do you have a harness?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you have mountaineering boots? You have a harness?

[C]

Yep. Because I climb. I've rock climbed. I have a harness. I can buy. I can buy mountaineering boots. I could go. The 26.

[B]

Boots are expensive.

[A]

We could probably.

[C]

I've got a husband that makes a great income. I've got the 22nd to the 26th free.

[B]

I could. I. Yeah, I could do the 27th for sure.

[C]

No, no, I've got the 22nd to the26th.

[B]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Actually, the 22nd to the 27th free. We have a recording on the 28th,

[B]

so you don't want to. You want to. You probably don't want to do a single day push. You want to do a two day push.

[C]

I'll do whatever you're willing to put up with. I just am Asmatic and 51. So I want you. I just. I just really want you to understand who you're signing up with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't want you getting pissed off at me when I'm tired because I'm out of breath when you think it's not reasonable to be.

[B]

Why would I get pissed off at you?

[C]

Because people do, actually. 20th to 26th. If we're not looking at the hold we have on the calendar. Chance. Okay. Yeah. Not the 22nd. 22nd to 26th.

[B]

Let's. Let's talk out to the pocket. I could seriously do this, though, if you're. You would have to get mountaineering boots. They're expensive. Or you could rent them. You could rent some.

[C]

No, I'll get them.

[A]

We could probably get them for review.

[C]

I'll get them. Don't worry. I'll get them.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You want to be responsible for me on Mount Rainier? Rainier?

[B]

I've never done Rainier. You've never done a crevasse rescue course, I'm assuming, right?

[C]

No, I'm good at instruction. Like, you can. You can tell me, don't move, do this, do that, and I'll listen. I'm not like a. Not listener, but I don't know my own stuff.

[B]

Yeah, no, no, it's more of like if I fell into her crevasse.

[C]

Oh, you're.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

No, no, no. Don't. Trust me.

[B]

I'd be anyway.

[C]

But. Well, that's what I'M saying you've done so much of this solo.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So am I a detriment there in that I can call for help?

[B]

Yeah, it would. And honestly, if you went this time of year, this is the best time of year to do Rainier. It's not later in the season.

[C]

You need to understand when you commit to that because I. Here's the thing is, at the moment I have the time, so I could very easily go do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I love to do these kinds of things. And this actually, this is, this is the plight of. This is the. Not the plate of women, but it's the plate of me. Is that so many times when you want to do this kind of shit where you don't have maybe the experience to do so you can find someone who will do it with you. Typically they want to. Right? Like, typically it's like. No, no, seriously, Seriously. Let's say, let's say, let's say. I'm not saying this that way. I'm saying, saying this that way. But like, let's say I want to go climbing, I want to go climb this peak and I find a guy that.

[A]

Even more fun context.

[C]

If a guy wants to go climb that peak with me and he's willing to take me with him, chances are he wants to hook up. Right. Like there's an ulterior motive. I'm not saying you have one. No part of me feels like you have one. I get what I'm saying is that like, people don't just volunteer to carry dead weight. I want to make sure that, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like. Cuz usually when guys volunteer to carry dead weight, like there's something in it. Right. They're like, oh, I have a chance here. No, this, you know, like, do you understand that you are volunteering to carry dead. We're saying, I'm saying there's no benefit to him. You know what. Do you know what I mean? It's not like, oh, I'm gonna take her climbing and we're gonna go get drinks later and have a fun night. It's like I am carrying dead weight for no other reason than kindness.

[B]

I. I love big ass. I. I love helping people accomplish their goals and I love mountaineering. Honestly, I. It doesn't, it doesn't matter to me. Like, I'm bringing a group that the speed ascent that I'm doing on the 23rd, 24th is with a group of three people that have never done it before that live here in Colorado and want to do it. And I volunteered to bring if you

[C]

want to do rainier between the 22nd and 27th. I'll make it happen. We're not. No, he knows that too. You're making it feel weird. You're making it feel weird.

[A]

You're the one who brought it up.

[C]

Because I. Okay. Because that is how it goes. Like.

[A]

But how is that relevant?

[C]

Because he is taking me on his own accord. I do something really cool and he is bringing all the skill and I'm bringing nothing to the table. Sure, guys.

[A]

He offered for me too.

[C]

Men don't do that. Men don't do that. Men don't do that normally unless they want something out of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She.

[C]

So you learn as a woman that knows that to set the record straight where you're like, hey, just so you know, this has nothing of those agendas to it.

[B]

Yeah, she's got a point.

[C]

And I'm not saying this about the guy I climb with. The guy I climbed with was very respectful, very great. Still to this day would be a great friend. We. The friendship has drifted out of respect. Obviously only hooked up once, but every time, every time we've climbed together since, it was like. I think the reason why he's being so nice to me in this occurrence

[B]

is because of that reciprocal quid per quo.

[C]

No one is just. No one just. Just wants to dull down their tolerance level to teach you with nothing in exchange. It's not how life works.

[B]

I. I do. I kind of like. I enjoy. I love teaching, though.

[C]

And you can.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But like, do you blame me for being like.

[B]

No, no, absolutely.

[C]

Hey, FYI, like, you know you're getting absolutely nothing out of this. I bring nothing to the table. I just want you to know. Going. Because I don't want you getting pissed at me halfway up a mountain being like, man, you bring nothing to the table. I want you to know, like, this girl brings. Brings nothing to the table.

[B]

It's. Yeah.

[C]

All right, May 22nd. Fine. We'll do a follow up podcast then.

[B]

And if you want to do it.

[A]

Seriously, dude, I mean, I'm. I'm very intrigued by the idea. I just. I can't right now.

[C]

Acts like if Chance is doing it, I don't want.

[B]

But you have my. If you ever want to do it in the future.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, let me know.

[C]

I'm serious. I'll go do it. Talk to me after this. I have nothing going on those dates.

[B]

Yeah, let's do it.

[C]

I'm. But

[A]

with my second pick.

[B]

Yeah, sorry.

[A]

I'm gonna go with another Colorado 14er mount of the Holy cross. And there's not so much the view from the mountain, but the view of the mountain, the way the snow gets caught in the cross.

[B]

Cross, yeah, yeah. Cross Kular. That's what it's called.

[A]

Is that what it's called?

[B]

Yeah, I did that one last year. Yeah, you go straight up that snow line.

[A]

Oh, you did that line?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn. That's crazy.

[B]

It's fucking sick, dude.

[A]

I did the. The most basic, basic version of that peak, but, yeah, it was good.

[B]

It's epic no matter what. Yeah, it's right there, like on Veil. Yeah.

[A]

I didn't know the naming convention of it until we got out there and someone pointed out, like, there's a cross.

[B]

There's the cross.

[A]

That's cool.

[B]

Yeah, it's sick, man.

[A]

That is a good one.

[B]

So cool. That ridge is awesome, too. Halo Ridge, if you get a chance. Dude. It's the connecting ridge that comes across, like, as you're coming up to the peak. It's on the back side of it.

[A]

It. Okay.

[B]

There's like that shelter that's over there way off in the distance.

[A]

I've done it long enough ago where my memory is very faded at this point. But, yeah, yeah, I. I remember enjoying that hike. We did that as a overnighter. We camped at that little basin at the bottom. Yep.

[B]

That thousand feet of gain coming out of that. That sucks, dude.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

That's the worst part of it. Such a beautiful wilderness, though. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, that's a cool one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

John's

[C]

not from the top of actually both the Dolomites.

[A]

Yeah, great.

[C]

Dolomites. In Italy there was. So we were.

[A]

Do you have a particular peak?

[C]

Yes, but I can't say it. And if there are any Italian listeners in the audience that could break this down for me, basically my family is from Zuklo, which is in Trentino, and we went there in 2001 for a family trip. And my. We say cousin, I don't know, a blood relative of whatever distance drove us up to one of the mountaintops. And I remember my mom was freaking out because she hates, like, vertical anything similar. And it was steep and she was whatever. I remember there was a waterfall on the side of one of the switchbacks of the road that he pretended to swing me off of, and she had a fucking panic attack. But when we got to the top, it was like. I don't know where we parked the car. There were no roads. It was just wildflower fields. And then all of a sudden there was a cabin and people had signed their names on this cabin, we hadn't brought a marker, so we couldn't sign our names either. This was part of the learning process of. It took until I got on trail to realize that that's not. Lnt Whatever. But at the time, it was like, oh, my God, we can't sign our names. But I remember just standing there in that field with the view of being on top of one of the mountains looking at the other, and it's just. Just silence and wildfires. In this one. Wildflowers. Excuse me. And this one cabin where, like, in my brain like that is. It doesn't. It's not even real in my brain anymore. I wish I knew what mountain it was.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I wish I could go. I can't go back because I don't know what it was. It was just a mountain. This dude that is my Italian cousin that I've never spoke to since, decided to drive us to.

[A]

Sounds magical.

[C]

Yeah. But it lives up there in a magical state.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And part of you is like, I don't need to go back because I don't want. I don't want the real life. Like, I don't want to go up there and see.

[A]

The second experience is going to be

[C]

I go up and I see a dilapidated cabin. There it goes. My oasis.

[A]

There's like a dead cow. Yeah.

[C]

So. But. Oh, that view. I. I can't explain it in my brain. I can't tell you. She's gatekeeping. No, she just. I can't. That's my. That's my triple crown answer. And I cannot tell you where it. It is.

[A]

You get two now.

[B]

I get two.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Snake. You're the. You're the belly of the snake.

[B]

First one would be Little Bear Blanca Traverse, hands down.

[A]

Where's that?

[B]

That's in the Sangras. The Christos. Yeah. And it's a ridge that connects Little Bear to Blanca.

[C]

What state?

[B]

Colorado.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

It's the most technical traverse that you can do out of the 14ers. It's rated, like, as a Class 5. There's serious exposure, like, thousands of feet on either side.

[C]

Yeah. It's a large.

[B]

No, it was sick. It was. Here. I have some pictures from.

[C]

You told us you are risk adverse.

[A]

Yeah, I think we've determined that was. But. But also calculated to your point, you have been building up your skill set slowly.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Comfortable in this?

[B]

I'm comfortable now. Yeah. That's my buddy Joe on the first down climb.

[C]

Shut up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's one of those Red Bull videos where they just like, show the guy on the bike going down. That makes no sense.

[A]

That to me looks like, gosh. What's the. What's the one. That's the 14er? That's rated the hardest and blanking on it.

[B]

Capital.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not really that. Capital is easy. No, longs is long. I did longs in winter.

[C]

I won't do it. There's that one part. You have to like, hop from one rock to the other. People die.

[B]

No, that's.

[C]

That might sketchy part.

[B]

That might be. Pyramid has like a gap that you have to hop over. But longs is super, super fun. It was.

[C]

I heard that for a long.

[A]

People do die in longs, but I think because it attracts so many people,

[B]

it's so close to Denver.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah. And people go up there without the necessary skill set and expertise.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But how do you get like. Like, okay, yeah. I've hiked the AT and the PCT and like the X amount of other trails. And do I have the skill set? I don't know. I'm not. Like, those trails don't go over these types of peaks. So how do you gain that?

[B]

You have to do the peaks. I didn't either. Right. When I fell in love with this kind of stuff, I had just on the 18, a little bit of the CT.

[C]

Right. You know, but what I'm saying, when you're talking about the people that. The effects and you're like, they don't have. They don't have the experience on this type of. You could think that you are so experienced because I've got 5, 000 miles under my belt.

[B]

Yeah. It's not the same.

[C]

And I'm not experiencing the same way.

[B]

It's different. Different. It's definitely different. Yeah. But Little Bear Blanca and then massive.

[A]

Massive. Interesting.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I'm not on massive. Massive's awesome.

[B]

It took me three times to summit this.

[A]

I assume you're doing it in winter. Yeah.

[B]

In winter.

[C]

Is this video Little Bear Blanca?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Gary. Zach. Look at this. I honestly, I do this a lot.

[A]

I know.

[C]

And it's not in any way other than I'm just like calling a name to yell at. No, not that. I'm just going to an instinctual. Yell at the drink.

[A]

I'm joking. You're not drunk.

[C]

Garrett, fight him. Look at this. Look at the. Look at that. Steep down. But then look at the other side. Wait, hold on. Other side.

[B]

I think I'm explaining which side to go on.

[C]

That's a massive no for me.

[A]

No pun intended. Massive.

[B]

Yeah. Honestly, do you know, do you have the 14ers app at all, like Bill Middlebrooks?

[A]

I don't. I don't bag peaks often enough to be fluent in it.

[B]

Fair. So he didn't have the Little Bear Blanco traverse on the app for very long time because of the danger that's associated with it. Yeah, because he didn't want people that weren't experienced enough to go out there and attempt it. And Little Bear itself is just. It's gnarly. Like, if you go through the hourglass, people get hurt all the time. They built a helo pad down at the bottom of Little Bear for medical evacuations because it's that dangerous of a peak.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Is this a thirteener or 14er?

[B]

It's a 14er.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. It was so much fun, though, because that was like. So that was 56 and 57 for me. And then my finisher was Handy's, so I felt like I had finished at that point, you know, doing the Little Bear Blanca traverse because Handy's you could do drunk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, with one leg.

[C]

Who names it now in Handy's? That's funny.

[B]

As I know some of the names are crazy. You know, there's a 13 are named after a female. Silver heels from.

[C]

That blows my mind more than Andy's. Look at his feet on each side of this drop.

[B]

Yeah, that's thousands of feet on the side on that catwalk.

[A]

The cascading down my pants.

[B]

Yeah. That one spot right there.

[C]

This isn't Rainier, right?

[B]

No, that's Little Bear Blanca.

[C]

No, no, I know it's obviously not, but what I'm saying is you're not taking me on something like, I just.

[B]

No, rain.

[C]

That's not what we're doing.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. That's not like that. No.

[C]

We're gonna talk.

[A]

Your last peak.

[C]

My last peak. She doesn't. I don't feel a lot of nostalgia. Oh, my God. The life of the universe. When I get to the top of a peak, it's more of just that this looks cool, and then I leave.

[A]

Good enough.

[C]

But I will say there was a morning I woke up in my tent on the PCT and I was camping outside of Mount Adams, and I saw Mount Adams. Out of. It was like the V of the tent. That arch, that triangle of the tent was the triangle of Mount Adams. And I woke up to, like, the alpine glow, but not the evening alcohol. Pine glow, like the morning sunrise. Alpine glow on Mount Adams. And that looked so cool. And it was one of those things where it was like, I'm tired. I don't want to do this. We've got so many more days. They want to go this amount of mile. Like, I just. I don't feel like it. And you, like, you wake up and you see that and you're like. Like, I'm in a really cool place. And I wouldn't say in terms of, like, it's. It's the best. Like, put this on your bucket list. Go here before you go, you know, other. Other places. No, but for me, on my list of, like, moments that meant something, that was the start of, I think Washington. And if it was in Oregon, sue me, but I think Washington. I don't know. It was somewhere up there. Wherever it was, I needed to pick me up. I needed, like, a reminder of not why you're out there, but why you stay out there.

[A]

I think you can see Adams from Oregon. I remember seeing it from.

[C]

That's what. That's what I'm saying is I don't. I don't remember where this viewpoint was. It could have been an either, because it was a viewpoint of it, not on it. And it wasn't a. This is why I'm out here. It was more of a. This is why I stay out here, where it was like, everything sucks. This is hard. Everyone wants to go faster. We're so close to the finish line. Every mile counts. We're actually, like, counting stuff now, but taking a moment and looking at this. This is cool.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Good. Love that. It's good to tie it back. I think those are the best reasons to like, peaks is like, a personal moment, story highlight.

[C]

I mean, anyone who likes it just for the view hasn't seen enough views. Views. Because when you see enough views, the views don't really matter anymore, do they?

[A]

I mean, I still get giddy about certain peaks, for sure.

[C]

Certain ones. Not all of them.

[A]

Not all of them.

[C]

There's probably some you go up that. Other people get giddy and you feel nothing.

[B]

Yeah, she's got a point, though. After you've seen so many, like, beautiful views, it's got to be one that, like, sweeps you off your feet to stop in your tracks and be like, fuck, that's an oil pain.

[C]

But that's why you need some extracurricular. You need that extra pain that you're going into it with or that extra. I don't know if I can do. Do it, or that there's something extra that goes into it where it's not just the view. It's the view and the Feeling.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that elicits some sort of thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My last pick here.

[B]

Ooh, I'm gonna go Anaconda.

[A]

The 20 footer, similar to Tron's, I think more for nostalgic reasons than the peak itself. Was the first time I saw Katahdin in the context of northbound through hiking the at. I just wanted to see, like, you're chasing Katahdin for months, obviously. And like, the first time you get. You're trying to see it for miles before that, you can actually see it. Like, you're staring out at every vista, being like, I think I see it, you don't see it. And then you see it, you're like, oh, it puts this whole thing into perspective for me. That was like. I didn't cry, but I got very close to crying at that point. Katan.

[C]

I don't think everyone does that.

[A]

What.

[C]

What you just described.

[A]

Get emotional seeing Katan.

[C]

Yeah. All those. All those. All those mile points and check marks and thoughts. Like, I. I didn't know when it was coming until I saw it. And I had A. I'm 5:1. If anyone didn't know. I had to get, like, boosted up for some of these rebars. I cried the whole time. It wasn't fun. I talked to someone recently. I think it might have been Mims because she's about to do the et cetera southbound. She was like, come do Katahdin.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I was like, you actually know what mountain I would rather not do in the mass of this extent is this one.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Just didn't like. It just didn't. I don't know. I didn't felt it. Felt. It felt like I was putting on a pair of pants that were a size long and I'm not a size long, and they don't fit properly. And I'm trying to make them fit properly, but I don't have the length to do them in the way that the experience is meant to be enjoyed.

[A]

Is that like a metaphor for. You didn't want to finish the trail, therefore you weren't excited?

[C]

No, it's a metaphor for. The rebar is built for someone that's an average height taller than me. And I felt like every time I got up to it, like it wasn't built for me and I needed assistance actually climbing, literally.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I felt like I needed assistance up it. And when you need assistance up it, it's like, I can't necessarily do this on my own. If I need someone to hold a foothold for me to get up the Rebar. And so I think it was Mims and she mentioned it. And I was like, I. I don't want to. Because it was one of those, I'm doing this next or not next year, but now it's actually July where it's like, do you want to come do it? And I was like, I actually. And it was a. It was a revelation for me because it was like, I actually don't want to do this mountain again. And so many people that do the at want to do it. I was like, I. I don't want to. I didn't enjoy it. I didn't have a good time. I felt stressed the whole way. I cried the whole way. And I heavily depended on the person I was hiking with to get up it. And I don't like being someone that needs that. I mean, you can see why I explained so much to him about Rainier, you know, like, I don't want. I don't want to need that.

[A]

He's rethinking it right now.

[C]

He should leave here and be like, I actually don't want to do it. Yeah, he should. He really should. But what I'm saying is I don't want to go into it with that. And for me, when someone's like, oh, we should go do that again, I'm like, you don't see the hidden weight of all the extra help I'll need to get up that. And that causes me stressed. So that's not on my list.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

I remember seeing it too, for the first time. Yeah. And it wasn't an A ball bridge. It was like one of those climbs in the 100 mile wilderness. It's.

[C]

Yeah, you can see it from, like, white.

[B]

White Mountain. Is that what?

[C]

No, White House Landing. White House Landing. It's that fishing camp. The thing I like most about Steven, and he's with me on drawing this out, he's not trying to rap any faster than I am.

[A]

He's got a long drive. I think he's trying to rap also.

[C]

I'm talking about. Shit.

[B]

I'm here for the pod.

[A]

Yeah,

[B]

hang on. I got a picture, I swear. Okay. I don't know where I was, but that's the first time I saw it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And then you get to a ball bridge, and then it's like, fucking huge.

[C]

Can you conceptualize it at this point? Like, do you know I'm gonna climb that? And you can, like, feel the weight of it? Because to me, I Like, if I were sitting there going like that, that means nothing to Me, I'm like, that's a thing. And I can't grasp the weight of it.

[B]

I think this was the first thought that I had that it was ending, that it was close to being done. You know, it was kind of. It was sad.

[A]

Emotions of all kinds. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

All right, Zach, take us home. Sorry. No, it's not. Stop fucking apologizing. You're gonna drink every time you apologize. I barely got any sleep last night. What? Why? I spent hours fighting with AI, all because I was trying to make a website. It started out okay, but then I got stuck just trying to change one button. Okay, okay, relax. Just try wix Harmony. What's that? It's wix's new website builder. Lets you switch back and forth between AI tools and hands on editing anytime. So I'm not just prompting and praying? Nope. Just try it for [e-mail] Harmony. You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry. Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast. With no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Before you renew your car insurance policy. Do yourself a favor, download the Jerry app or head to Jerry. AI Libson. That's J E R R Y dot AI slash lib S Y N. I

[A]

can't skip this one because I'm gonna. This is a series. I'm making a series and I'm determined. You should see all the sun hoodies in my office right now.

[C]

Let's stay longer.

[A]

I On a recent, like, day hike, slash trail run, I the light bulb went off that I wanted to do like categories of reviews of things. And having had so much skin cancer, I'm now I wear sun hoodies all the time in the Colorado heat. This particular day when I was like 85 degrees. So brands have now been sending me a shit ton of sun hoodies. But this is actually spurred by one that I saw at Switchback last year. He's like, dude, you have to try this. This is going to be amazing. And this is the first one I've tested in the series. I've obviously tested a lot of sun hoodies throughout my backpacking life, hiking life, but this is the North Face Summit series and all of the sun hoodies that I'm going to reference. Not all of them, almost all of them. I've Gotten for free. So there's the disclaimer there. That's true for probably most gear I've mentioned here on the podcast. This is the North Face Summit series direct sun hoodie. This thing is. It's not the cheapest. It's 120. It's not like, outrageously priced. It's kind of in the ballpark, but at the pricier end. But it uses a proprietary technology called Light Range, which bundles upf, anti odor and moisture management at the fabric level rather than via a separate coating or treatment. So it's very lightweight. It breathes really well. It feels nice and light and cool. And it has a UPF of 40, which, if you know, sun hoodies, that's a really good UPF rating. Most of the ones I wear are not 40, so I was shocked to learn that this was actually a 40. Yeah, I just it it for it being a day where it was pushing 80 degrees, I was very pleasantly surprised by how cool this thing wore.

[B]

It's.

[A]

Forgot I've got it here.

[B]

There it is.

[C]

Look at that.

[B]

Oh, it's got a half zip, too. Quarter zip.

[A]

Yeah. Zips down, lets the. The pom poms breathe a little bit. Yeah, it's got the thumb holes. My biggest critique.

[C]

Can I touch it?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm like a field to believe person.

[A]

That one is a large, and it weighs 7.1 ounces according to the scale in my office.

[C]

What's the material?

[A]

It's 89 recycled polyester, 11 of their, like, proprietary polyester.

[C]

It's made in Jordan Main.

[A]

Jordan.

[C]

I don't know what that means.

[A]

Yeah, was. Was impressed with it. Some of the sun hoodies out there are, like, built for climbers, which means the hoods are just way too big. This one I didn't have that issue with, so I like that. The one thing that I didn't love is that the cuffs are a little bit too tight to get, like, up to your elbow. There's times where I want to push up. Like when I'm in the shade, I want to be able to, like, cool off a little bit faster. That's one thing I like about, like, the jolly gear, for instance, does a really good job. You can roll it up and get basically do a short sleeve. But overall, this sun hoodie is really, really nice and exceeded my expectations.

[C]

You said they're not paying you.

[A]

Not paying me.

[C]

Do you have any thoughts on the polyester? That's usually, like, people's gripe, right?

[B]

No.

[A]

Most sun hoodies are going to be a synthetic Fabric.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So this is that by necessity, it's just.

[A]

It's cooler. So the next one that I'm testing is not.

[C]

I'll.

[A]

I don't want to tip it, but I am generally anti the natural fibers for the purpose of a sun hoodie.

[C]

Your anti natural fibers.

[A]

From a environmental standpoint, it's not ideal.

[C]

Not in a trap way, but in a. This sounds contrary to what people would think, so please explain.

[A]

Well, I'll save that for the next one. When I do. When I do the dedicated review of it. But in my experience, the synthetic fibers are just much cooler. And, like, especially in hot conditions, it can be a different circumstance. If you're backpacking, like, 50, 60 degrees, then I would opt for some sort of a wool.

[C]

Let me rephrase. You have a reason for saying what you're saying. You're not just pulling that out of your booty.

[A]

I've tested a lot of merino sun hoodies in my life. A lot of people.

[C]

I would love to hear why the. Because I. Everything I hear is like, polyester is bad. Avoid it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so if. If you.

[A]

I mean, there might be considerations for, like, I don't know if it's leeching pfas or whatever it might be. I don't know. It's at that level. But, like, the sun hoodie that Elise wears all the time, the one that's, like, iconic Elise, that's polyester, like most sun hoodies are.

[C]

I just want to. I just want to hear the person.

[B]

No, I'm not.

[A]

I'm not. I'm just explaining why that's.

[C]

Stop yelling at.

[B]

This one's polyester. Yeah, yeah. This Mountain Hardware one.

[A]

That's one of them. I've actually got that one yesterday.

[C]

I don't know. I'm just wondering, because you hear. You hear the people talk, you know, and it's like.

[A]

Yeah. There's some features that I think are throwaways for the context of backpacking. Like, it's got a little pocket here that you can tuck the hood into, which.

[B]

Oh, that's cool.

[A]

Conceptually is cool, but, like, I don't know if I'd ever use it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Do you think we'll get through a whole series where you can give, like, an. In conclusion, I like this best.

[A]

I am going to rank them as I go. It's tough.

[C]

I'm still here.

[A]

No, because I. I'm not exaggerating. I've got eight in my office right now. I've got another six at home. Like, this is gonna be an ongoing

[B]

series and you gotta try them out on a hike.

[C]

The problem is I'm realizing my own mortality. It's one of those things where I'm like, yeah, it's only eight. And then I'm like, oh, I'm only around for six. But here it feels nice. Yeah, I like this idea. I think it's a good idea.

[A]

Thank you. Appreciate that. But yes, that's the first one

[B]

like storage thing in there.

[A]

I haven't totally figured it out.

[C]

What Hood storage.

[A]

It's one of those things where I think sometimes stuff just gets over engineered. So that's a feature that doesn't need to exist.

[B]

I kind of like this though. Like the. The lip.

[A]

Yeah. But yeah, that is again the North Face Summit series. Direct sun hoodie.

[B]

And it's got a. What does it weigh again?

[A]

That's the large. That's 7.1 ounces.

[B]

It's not bad for having a zipper and a tie.

[A]

Yeah, I'm gonna have a rating system. I need to wear more of them before I can start rating because I don't have a context.

[C]

Have you seen what's the podcast where they rate things in Kate Upton? Boobs.

[A]

I don't know. It sounds right.

[C]

Can you rate things in my boobs? I want a lasting legacy. Can you rate these?

[A]

I'll rate them in my boobs.

[C]

Chauncey's boobs. I want them to be my boobs.

[A]

It's 14 chances.

[C]

You don't need a legacy. You're staying. Can you rate these in chops?

[A]

I know. Bet it's probably not appropriate for me to be rating things in your pom poms. First of all is the.

[C]

If I'm giving you express permission in a non sexual way.

[A]

If I get Garrett's permission. Okay.

[C]

Garrett, come here. Yes, yes,

[A]

I consent.

[C]

Okay, cool. I would like you to rate all these sun hoodies for the future of the life of this podcast. In terms of my boobs, they get X amount. How many boobs does this get for Johnson?

[A]

I have to test more out before I feel comfortable having a.

[B]

Would you want a different color than white?

[A]

And then I thought I would. I thought that white would be bad on my very pale first time. But yeah, it cooler, obviously. And the fact that white can pull off a UPF 40 is like. I don't know why.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

A darker color.

[C]

But my only critique on this one as a non user is there's no hole for my ponytail. Where's my hair go?

[A]

They do have a female specific model, so I Don't know if there's a pony hill ponytail hole for that.

[C]

You know what? My male specific guest has a ponytail and he wouldn't be accommodated.

[A]

He could wear the ladies. It's fine.

[B]

I. I do agree with you. There's very limited things in the through hiking gear community that has stuff for ponies.

[C]

Yeah, they did that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I said this on the. A previous episode we put out where I'm like, I'm not a proponent of. Of anti Pinkett and trinket. I understand the anti Pinkett and trinket and the like. Let's make things that make sense for us. And that aspect I'm all for. But I love the color pink and I hate feeling bad about liking it. And sometimes I do because it's like, we don't want to pink it and shrink it. And then it's like. But I like that color. So what I'm saying is that just do the same colors, do the same stuff, but just put in the little features that both people can use.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. I concur.

[A]

Mailbag.

[C]

Mailbag. The sneeze.

[A]

You get to skip the smaller text. We've decided. Rachel and I.

[C]

What? The running red. We already talked about that. We've done an entire segment on that day.

[B]

Not a.

[A]

No, I'm saying if you go. If you look at the actual mailbag, there's text that's smaller that you can skip.

[C]

Okay. Ready?

[A]

I think so.

[C]

Are you ready?

[B]

Sure. I don't have. What am I doing?

[C]

There's nothing to be ready for. I'm just trying to ground us. Hi, I'm a San Diego local and I've hiked the SDT in the past 2018. I just listened to the podcast episode and agree it's not a great hike to recommend due to the issues you guys discussed. That segment behind El Cajon Mountain has always been the main problem, and many people have had ideas for solving it, but nothing has actually come to fruition.

[A]

Johnson never read this slow in her life.

[C]

I am enunciating in the right areas. A listener would love them. What do you mean, is this slow?

[A]

I'm not making fun of you. I. I feel like this is consistent with you trying to drag on the episode.

[C]

I thought I was doing a great job.

[A]

Doing a great job. Yeah.

[C]

I'll read faster. Fine. Whatever. Do I say the fruition part discussed? I don't know.

[A]

Fruition.

[C]

Fruition. Good. On the maps, only a small corner is reservation land. But I believe the tribe has said they don't want people walking on that road at all past the gate. My hike we did ju that gate and follow the original route without any issues but did feel sketchy. The suggested suggested Sorry. The suggested alternative parallel to the road seems to be doable but greatly lengthens the bushwhack. Even on the original route we were bushwhacking for almost two hours, which the normal through hiker probably doesn't have the patience for. Going back to the start. I just wanted to share a few other things that I thought while listening. 1. I actually hiked the old route through the south side of the desert floor and didn't do the badlands. The badlands are a more scenic and for sure better way. I didn't get a wellness check on the second day as the plane rangers saw me hiking alone and then they sent two rangers out and tried. I was napping under a tree when they came and I was fine but my hiking partner saw I was spread out. 3 stagecoach RV is great. Did you guys road walk after this? I wasn't sure. On the podcast the root goes back into a sandy single track that parallels the road and the entire way you head up until the great crest. The grade of the crest, that's where we separated with Jess Kuyamaka Lake is also amazing. You guys pronounced it wrong. FYI random fact. I packed him pregnancy test in my resupply and found out that I was pregnant in the bathroom at the pub. Woohoo. Congrats. This day was also my longest hike ever of 29 miles because we were racing to get to Ramona since a storm was coming in. We hiked all the way to the TH and there and got picked up by a family. These toads are arroyo toads and they are endangered. Also the host at the TH often lets people camp there. We had to take a zero the next day as it rains buckets maybe 2 to 3 inches and honestly it was a well needed rest day especially before the book bushwhack. Skip skip. All in all I came camped legally three times and slept at home two nights. I agree that the Salton Siege the crest is a great hike in itself. I think the easiest solution to the thru hike is to get permission from whoever owns the Christian camp and then hike down to Wildcat Canyon Road to the next park. It is. Oh yeah, and then hitch down. Sorry, hitch down a Wildcat Canyon road to the next part. It is so dangerous to hike down that road. I actually don't even like driving that road.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Also if you're going into this with a chaunce Sidetrack. If you're going to this with a purist mentality digit, follow the advice. Anyway, thanks for the long form podcasting. You're welcome. I did revisit all my memories. I did enjoy revisiting all my memories from this amazing hike from Deanna. Thank you, Deanna. Sorry to yada yada this Jack. Zach's just. He doesn't want me to drag this out. What can I say? He's giving me eyes.

[A]

Yeah, this is a long one. Thank you, Deanna. That was very thoughtful feedback and it's always good to hear from other hikers because, yeah, we felt a little bit weird on that one, but. But it sounds like our experience was at least corroborated by Deanna.

[C]

Yeah, it's interesting. Well, so for when like the Superior Hiking Trail, for example, I thought that one was just like a cool go do it. And then we had a guest on that, talked about the not great parts of it and it sounds the same where it's kind of like there are parts that grizzly. No.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It was someone else. They talked about the Detroit area.

[A]

Detroit, right. Superior Hiking Trails. Minnesota. Detroit's in Michigan.

[B]

818.

[C]

No, there was a part. What's the city?

[A]

Minneapolis. St. Paul.

[C]

What's the Detroit one?

[A]

I don't think there's the Detroit Trail. Not my knowledge.

[C]

Someone talked about this. I'm not drunk. I'm just not Iceland. This is wrong. Someone talked about this.

[B]

That's Wisconsin.

[A]

That's Wisconsin. Maybe like the north country trail.

[C]

No, someone talked about this and I remembered it and I thought this.

[A]

Oh, I thought about the screw five star review. This one's from hex with two x's 1, 1, 1 release the files. Leaving a five star review because I still need to Hear the real episode 349. Sorry to the listener, but not gonna happen. That one got canned for reasons previously addressed. But we have the segments of that available in the Patreon. So thank you to today's title sponsor, that is Element. And when you walked in, you might have noticed that my analogy in here was especially dark. That's because I was enjoying their brand new flavor, which is the Lemonade iced tea. Oh, this is a different title. Sponsored Onyx. They're not even title sponsor, but yeah, appreciate the shout out there too, Element. The Lemonade iced tea is good. It's got 50 milligrams of caffeine. This is their first venture into the caffeinated packets and it's awesome. I had to pour it out because it was Getting late. But as it turns out, the caffeine was needed to get here to 10pm but elements the best. All the flavors are good. They got the new pink lemonade, which is really good. That's Chance's favorite, right?

[C]

I can't stop drinking it. And this is a pro. Like, they. We have a running joke in my house that they're with us because they keep sending so much, because they keep sending these cans of the seltzer, which is phenomenal. I'm just not enough of an athlete to drink them at that place. So there's this running joke in the house. But with the pink lemonade and the iced tea, so far, I have taken both of those boxes and hid them in cabinets Smart. Because I don't want Garrett and my other housemate to find them because they know that this is such, like, a game. No one rules. There's no rules. Drink what you get. When it comes to the stuff that's in the houses from Element, it's hidden.

[A]

It's off limits.

[C]

I hide it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The difference, if you've. If you've had lemon, if you've had element before and you're not sure about it, the difference with these two flavors is they taste almost sweet. And if you're thrown off by the salty aspect, you're like, the saltiness is a little too hardcore for me. I'm a soft girl. I don't know these ones, like, the pink lemonade tastes like I'm actually just drinking pink lemonade. And it is fricking nuts because I don't feel like I'm drinking anything that's meant to be anything for me in any health sort of way. Apart from that and that no one can do anything more for me than that than just, like, trick my brain into thinking I'm having a nice, lovely bevy.

[A]

Yeah. Get a free sample pack with your order. Drink element, element.com/trek for eight free packets with your order. And also, thank you to Onyx. Save 70% off a premium plan at Onyx Backcountry with code TREK70 from now

[C]

through Memorial Day in my redemption. Duluth. Oh, yeah, Duluth was a superior hiking trail town I was thinking of. Not Detroit.

[A]

That's right.

[C]

I'm not a fucking idiot. It was just Duluth.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

Same. Same, but different.

[A]

Super big thank you to our Bob Peoples award winners from Patreon, that is Alex and Misty with Navigators Crafting. Alex, Alex kindle, Andrew Austin McDaniel, Bill Jensen, Brad and Blair from 13 Adventures, Brett Mullins, aka Cruzy, Brian Allsop. Carl Lobster Hood. Christopher Marshburn. Clint Sitler. Coach Verion Outdoors. Eric Casper. Eric Hoffman. Ethan Harwell. Done. Julian Daniels. Greg Knight. Greg Martin Griffin. Hey, would you bring me a beer? Haley Buckingham Palace Jackson Storm Trooper Jared not from Subway. Jason Kaiser. Jason the Snail. Snailer. Luke Netjez. Maddie Nerd Arizona. Patrick C. And Cialo. Randy Sutherland. Rebecca Braveheart.

[B]

Rural Juror.

[A]

Sawyer products. The St. Louis Shaman. Timothy Han Solo and Tracy Trigger. Still got it.

[C]

Are you gonna make someone else do fawns?

[A]

I think they'll have to. Do you want that torch to be carried?

[C]

No, I think they're going to find their own thing.

[A]

Jess has done it when she's.

[C]

She. Well, yeah, because she's imitating me.

[A]

Yeah, she is.

[C]

They could.

[A]

Thanks, our guy. Paulie. Paulie, you've got a meaty one waiting for you here.

[C]

Paul, you've outlived me.

[A]

Old man Murph's Copy roasters. Go to ommcr.com to get yourself some delicious beans. You can follow us on social at Backpacker Radio, on Instagram and TikTok and Threads, Facebook. We're there, too.

[B]

You could follow Stephen Paul_Bunyan_214 on insta chance.

[C]

The Paul part throws me off. Juliana, underscore Chauncey on Instagram. Juliana Chauncey on YouTube. I don't know what I'll be posting. Posting on. Maybe one of. Honestly, more likely YouTube. I don't know. Follow me.

[A]

Like saying your goodbyes right now. We still have episodes.

[C]

I feel like I'm trying to. I'm trying to mentally process all of this, and part of it is acceptance. Are you bringing me back into it?

[A]

No, no, no. You're right.

[C]

I'm going through it at every turn.

[A]

Chance and I both have books we'd be grateful for. Reviews on Amazon. Thank you for checking out the books. Subscribe and follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on. On YouTube.

[C]

Follow my [e-mail] backpacker radio. Watch me drag my own eyeballs to my chin on YouTube.com and that is

[A]

it for today's show. If you've listened all the way through, especially on the Monday episode, what do they say? Let's give one for the Instagram comments and then another for the YouTube.

[C]

I want to differentiate Viva la Chance.

[A]

For which one.

[C]

If you've listened to anything in the comments, put Viva la Chance. Long live me. Long live me.

[A]

Long live me. L on YouTube. And then for Instagram, Viva Latron.

[C]

This would be Cocky. If I was staying, I'm not staying. I want. I want to hear my, like, battle cry. Drawn out.

[A]

Made them both Tron oriented.

[C]

I am. They are both. They're both the same thing. It's both Viva Laton. On every comment. Put it. And then just let me know that you're thinking of me. And if. You know what, if you've hated me the whole time and you thought I was annoying the whole time, don't comment it. It. And then I won't get that memo. But the ones that. That don't hate me, that will do that. I would love it.

[A]

Do that comment with a winky face.

[C]

No, if you don't like me, just don't put it. Or you know what, Comment and say, I never liked you to start. And I will respect. I'll respect that much more than a winky face. A person that can go on and be like, I never liked you from the start. Yeah, Respect.

[A]

Cool.

[C]

Respect. All right. One or the other. But this is. We're in the final eight weeks of my ultimate send off. At this point, we're in the final six. I'm making everything about me comment. Tell me you'll miss me because I'm collapsing mentally.

[A]

Yeah, Chauncey's gonna filibuster the remaining episodes.

[C]

No, I'm not gonna filibuster them. I'm just gonna die of sadness and lack of purpose.

[A]

Oh. And that is it for today's show. Thank you so much for listening and happy hiking.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I was hunted once.

[A]

I just came back from Nam.

[B]

I was hitching through Oregon and some cop started harassing me.

[A]

Next thing you know, I had a

[B]

whole army of cops chasing me through the woods. I had to take them all out.

[A]

Was a bloodbath.

[C]

That's Rambo, dude.

[A]

What?

[B]

You just described the plot of Rambo. Yeah, that's the first from the first one.

[C]

Your life with Rambo, bro.

[A]

That's not the first time you've described

[B]

your life in the way of John Rambo's life.

[C]

I've been out walking slow many miles

[A]

I've yet to go Never been one that's had to choose but every time I do I find I lose I guess I'm a loser stomping ground A welcome man for the loving crowd I

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

Please, for the love of everything good

[B]

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But that's weird.

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Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

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