A (2:05)

Definitely. What about you? What's your high?

B (2:08)

My high is I had a whirlwind of a weekend where I flew from here to Chicago to Missouri. There was a tornado while I was there. I was there for this literary festival, which I've never been to a literary festival before.

A (2:22)

Me neither.

B (2:23)

It was super interesting. I had never attended anything like it. But, yeah, it was called Unbound Literary Festival in Columbia, Missouri. It's completely free to the public, completely volunteer run, lots of amazing authors. It was very cool. I had never been to Missouri before or a literary festival, so it was an adventure.

A (2:40)

Did it focus on a specific genre or it was just all types of reading.

B (2:47)

It was all types of. Of writers. There was lots of poets. I was on two panels. One was about the new age and cults, and the other one I was on was about tales from the book tour. So. But there's a panel about, like road trip novels. There was a panel about bees, like all kinds of different things, but.

A (3:08)

So did you just go, Sorry, I have so many questions. I've never been to a literary festival and I'm.

B (3:13)

Me either. I didn't know what to do.

A (3:14)

It sounds like my type of thing. So in between, did you go to other panels or did you just do the ones that you were on?

B (3:21)

All of the events happened on a Saturday and I got there Friday night. Then there was the tornado and there was a bunch of events on the Friday night. And so I didn't go to any other ones. But I did end up meeting a ton of people, Other writers and authors and reporters and journalists from all over the country. So. Yeah. But the way the timing worked out, I didn't get to attend as many as I would have wanted to. But it was still great networking. I learned a lot just hearing about other people's careers. I will say it's skewed, very academic. So there's a lot of professors, a lot of heads of MFA programs, that kind of thing, which definitely had me feeling a little bit out of my element. But everyone was so nice. It was really interesting.

A (4:01)

That sounds so fun. I mean, I just. I love going to a book talk for a specific book. So this just in my head is a full day of back to back book talks.

B (4:10)

Yes. And I met some really nice bow and paper listeners who drove from Kansas City, which was two and a half hours. And I got to talk to them for a few minutes, but it was really nice.

A (4:19)

Boppers are everywhere.

B (4:21)

They really are.

A (4:22)

They're like your groupies. They're following you on tour. I love this.

B (4:25)

It did feel very cool because I was sitting between these, you know, like middle aged, very serious writers, journalists, political reporters. And the bout on paper listeners came through the line and they were just like so effusively kind.

A (4:40)

Aw.

B (4:41)

And I was like, yes, this is my community. I felt so proud.

A (4:45)

I love that.

B (4:45)

To just know such kind people. But yeah, so that was fun. And then I flew to Chicago back here. And then the next day I was on a train. I went to the city and I went to the Authors Guild gala. The Authors Guild is like an organization that helps authors get legal representation. If they need to with like copyright issues or other problems. And they do a lot of other great stuff. But another room where I felt way out of my depth. But they were honoring Percival Everett, so I heard him speak. It was really cool. Very intimidating at first, but I saw a bunch of people I knew eventually and I kind of relaxed and it was really fun. Anyway, so that was special. It was good. It was all good. And now I'm home. Now I'm home.

A (5:30)

Great.

B (5:31)

Longest high. So sorry.

A (5:32)

What about on the low side? I don't. I don't really have a low, so I'm gonna kick it back over to you.

B (5:36)

Yeah, I mean, I think my low is just between Missouri and then the city and the gala. I was up till like midnight, one or two, like every single night, which is really abnormal for me. And then plus the traveling, all of it just. I felt really out of sorts the past 24 hours of being home. But I'm back to feeling good today as of now, so. So, yeah, I think I'm caught up on sleep and I'm back.

A (6:02)

Well, great. Let's take an ad break and let's get into this book.

B (6:11)

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Something that I didn't expect in adulthood is just how much I enjoy a robe. It is such an important part of my day and my daily routine to take a really hot shower, come out of it, wrap myself in my Cozier with waffle towels, and then wrap myself in a soft, cozy robe. And if you are in the market for a new robe or you are looking to gift one to someone special in your life, as a reminder, Mother's Day is coming up very fast. Cozy Earth has so many different options. They have bamboo robes, waffle robes, ribbed terry cloth robes, and more.

A (6:47)

Cozy Earth also has amazing slippers. I have the slippers. I'm up here in Maine. I got my friend Molly the slippers a couple of Christmases ago and she has and loves them. Unfortunately, Ruby also loves them as something to bite, so they do have to be hidden. But if you're shopping for a special mother or mother figure in your life right now, consider pairing one of the amazing Cozy Earth robes with the puffy sheep slippers for the perfect gift. Whether you get a robe, slippers, or both, it's important to know that every single Cozy Earth item comes with a 10 year warranty so you can feel confident that the gift is actually going to last.

B (7:26)

Let this Mother's Day be a reminder that she deserves care too. Discover how Cozy Earth turns everyday routines into moments of softness and ease. Head to cozyearth.com and use our code BOP for an exclusive 20% off. And if you see a post purchase survey, be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here on Badon paper. Because home starts with mom. All right, Shall I read the summary for this book?

A (7:56)

Would love that.

B (7:58)

Okay, so Good People is all about the Sharafs, a family of Afghan refugees living in Virginia trying to pursue the American dream while maintaining their Afghan culture and community at the same time. After many years of hard work and success, tragedy strikes the family. Told through a kaleidoscope of other perspectives, the structure of this novel mirrors that of a documentary and leaves you with the question of who exactly is to blame for the accident that changed their family forever. So, Becca, as you said, you just finished this. I don't know what you thought about it. I do know it's not your usual type of book necessarily, but, yeah, tell me what you thought of it.

A (8:37)

I had a ride with this book in a good way.

B (8:40)

Oh, good.

A (8:41)

Also, spoiler warning, because I feel like I'm gonna start giving spoilers right away.

B (8:46)

There's so many spoilers in this, just throughout. So just prepare yourself if you're here listening.

A (8:50)

Yes. Okay. So I started this book while I was on the plane to Maine, and we had a ground delay, and so I had lots of reading time, and I read probably the first 50% of it in one sitting. And I'm gonna be honest with you, I was not sure about this, especially after you talked about how fast you were reading it. I felt like I wanted to get to something that was happening, and so I don't know that I was fully hooked in until maybe around the 40% mark. There were these two chapters back to back, and the first one was from somebody in the Afghan community, and they were talking about how permissive the Sharaf family was. And then the next chapter was from one of the Zora's school friends and was saying how strict her parents were. And I found that juxtaposition, which is true, to be really interesting. And then I was, like, more invested. And then I got to the part where, I don't know, the guy and his nephew find the cars at the bottom of the lake. And I was like, oh, I'm interested. But that doesn't happen until around the 45 or 50% mark. And so the first 40%, I was, like, not bored. But I was like, okay, enough backstory. I get it. Let's get to what happens, because, you know, something happens. But Then I love when a book does this where you then find out that all this stuff that you thought was irrelevant or extra becomes relevant. And so I appreciated it all in retrospect, but I was not sure that I was going to like it until, yeah, like, 40% of the way in.

B (10:27)

Interesting. I can see how you would feel that way, though, because when I know something bad happened, but I don't know what that can keep me reading. If the writing is good and the character work is good or the structure is interesting, that can keep me on the hook for a real, real long time.

A (10:41)

Okay. I don't like bad things to happen, so I'm like. I'm like, just tell me what it is.

B (10:47)

Like, I'm really driven by a sense of dread very easily, which I feel like this book does have. And I think it starts out very subtle, and then it kind of grows and grows and grows, which for me just really pushed me along. But, yeah, I was curious what you were going to think of this because I think it does really land in the sort of suspense that isn't scary. Although, of course, it's very heavy and there's a lot of bad things that happened. I don't. I didn't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think there's anything in this book that is scary in, like, a traditional thriller kind of way.

A (11:19)

No, I didn't find it scary at all. And just in case it wasn't clear, I started off skeptical, but I feel like my graph of enjoyment of this book was like, pretty much a hockey stick of, like, the closer we got to the end, the more obsessed I was. And when all is said and done, I really enjoyed it and appreciated the beginning part that I found boring more having gotten to the end. Do you want to know something else that kept me very curious and going from the first pages?

B (11:47)

I do.

A (11:48)

So I was reading an E galley of this and something I'd never seen before is there was this page, like, right after the copyright page, and it kind of had a masthead on it of, like, who worked on the book, which is very cool. Maybe I just had never noticed it before, but this one stuck out to me. And Amy Einhorn edited this book. And Amy Einhorn is a big deal editor. She also edited the Correspondent. She edited Deep Cuts. So when I saw that before I even started the book, I was like, oh, that's.

B (12:20)

I didn't know that. But, you know, that makes sense to me because I think. I mean, I have no idea if the sales Numbers of this book or anything. But you know, when you kind of get a sense of, like, how a book is projected to do based on, like, the podcast that the author is on. Like, I saw she was on poured over. Okay. And it was a Barnes and Noble monthly pick. It was about the book of the month pick. So that doesn't surprise me that it was a big editor like that, because you kind of start to make those connections. But I feel like this book is kind of not like the correspondent level maybe, but I can see it slowly picking up steam month over month.

A (12:59)

So I put something in this at the end once we've talked about the whole book, but we did talk about in a previous episode how the package for this book, meaning the title and the flap copy and the COVID are all pretty vague. So I feel like this has to depend on word of mouth and, like, getting positive recommendations in order to get people to read it. Because I don't know that you're gonna look at the COVID or hear the title and be like, yes, that's for me.

B (13:26)

I picked this book up solely because I saw people talk about it enthusiastically that I really admired. Like, that was the only reason I saw it, because it was a book of the month pick for the month that my book came out. So of course I paid attention and I was like, oh, okay. And I moved on because nothing about it stood out to me. And then when I read it, I was like, oh, of course. Yes. This is why they had huge expectations for this book. I totally get it.

A (13:51)

Yep.

B (13:52)

So one of the many reasons why I wanted to read this for book club is that I thought from a craft perspective, it was super interesting because of the structure and it had these really bite sized chapters in the form of all of these different perspectives. And I just am a sucker for a short chapter lately, which I do want to talk to you about. But I do also think that the sheer amount of perspectives, if there's any downside of it or criticism of it, in my mind, it's that you really feel like you're at an arm's length from almost every single character in some way, Even though you're getting to know them a lot, you just. It's almost hard to feel totally connected even to who is sort of the main character, even though you don't hear from her directly, which is Zora. And so there's a bit of, like, connection that almost is missing. But I also think this is the point of the book in some ways. But I don't know, talk to me about the sheer amount of perspectives. Like, did it work for you? Did you ever find yourself struggling to connect with any of the characters?

A (14:57)

Okay. I liked the short chapters. I liked the contradictory nature of what is true, what is not. I do feel like at some point I did stop reading the chapter headers very deeply because the voices didn't feel particularly distinct. Like, I kind of just boiled it down into a few different buckets of the Afghan community, Zora's school friends, and then people with the investigation. And it kind of just felt like more of a Greek chorus vibe of, like, hearing from different people. But outside of a few perspectives, like Sarah, who seemed maybe the closest to Maryam, the mom, I always felt like her perspective was maybe like the most biased towards what the Sharafs were saying or thinking. But outside of a few of those, like, I didn't know the difference between any of Zora's school friends. Like, I was just like, oh, teen girls. You know, like, they all kind of. Because they got so little page space, they all felt a little indistinct to me.

B (16:04)

Yeah, it's so much to keep track of too. I mean, to what you said earlier. I think on the flip side, like, what really worked for me about the sheer amount of voices is that like, each perspective switch almost served as a plot twist again and again, like many little plot twists, but instead of, you know, you read one perspective, you go to the next and everything, you know is flipped and it stays that way. Then you go to the next and it flips again. And I felt like that feeling of flip flopping was just so propulsive and it just worked so well without feeling like this heavy handed, obvious plot twist.

A (16:45)

Okay, so I feel that way towards the end, especially when I knew what we were talking about. I'll just say. I mean, I don't know why I'm trying to avoid spoilers in this episode, but when it got to the point where it was like, was this an honor killing? And when the POVs were flipping, telling different sides of that, there were the statements from the lawyer that I really enjoyed. But in the beginning, I wasn't sure what I was reading for. And so I felt held at arm's length, as you said, because I didn't feel necessarily deeply connected to any of the voices. I wasn't sure what information was important versus not like it just. It felt like, you know, in like a legal case where they bury you in documents. It's kind of how I felt at the beginning. Like I just wasn't sure what I was looking for.

B (17:38)

That's really interesting because if anything, I think I feel the opposite way because I think once you got to the second half, things were moving so fast that almost like the speed of the actual events paired with the flip flopping of perspective. And they did it. They didn't do it. They did it. They didn't do it. I almost found more disorienting in a way. And I think it's because I was thinking we're gonna eventually reach some conclusion, which spoiler we do not really. Or we do, depending on how you look at it. But my perspective is that it was completely ambiguous. But we'll get to the ending later. But yeah, that's really fascinating.

A (18:17)

It's fascinating that it sounds like we both netted out really enjoying this book, but the things that we enjoyed about it are completely different or the aspects of it. That's so wild.

B (18:31)

That is the beauty of reading, I think, and of books. I love that, actually. Okay. I wanted to talk to you about chapter length because obviously we're both writing books right now. I think about it all the time when I'm reading. Do you like I'm reading a book right now where the chapters feel long and it is so hard for me to stay engaged, which makes no sense because I can read the same amount, but it feels different if it's just a large chapter. And as I'm writing, I'm finding it really top of mind to like make it feel snappy, you know, what is the right word length per chapter? And I read once something like, if you're really thinking about pace, you should really never make a chapter longer than 2,500 words. Do you ever think about things like this or do you subscribe to certain rules with chapter length when you're writing?

A (19:21)

I don't. So with the Christmas Orphan Club, I remember being really stressed out that the chapters were different lengths and if that was allowed, that they weren't all consistent. And so I remember doing a lot of Googling about that and stressing out about that I didn't went back where we started and the chapters are in some cases much shorter in that book. But I wasn't aiming for anything. I do think that I tend to prefer shorter chapter books as a reader. It doesn't ruin a book for me. The only time I really dislike it is either when a book has no chapters because then I don't know when to take a break or like, you know, sometimes when you read a book and the entire book is five chapters or something like they're longer than a sitting that I would sit per reading. Yeah, but outside of that, you know, if it's like 5,000 word chapters, I don't have a problem with it. Where are you netting out? I'm trying to think how long were the chapters in Little one?

B (20:20)

I didn't pay as much attention to it in that book. I generally, I tried to stick to 2,500 absolute max. But with this new one because there's multiple perspectives and timelines, I write it and I kind of have the natural feel for it. And then I check the word count and I kind of assess from that whether I should split it up further or I don't know. I've been landing more with chapters that are between a thousand and two thousand words and I've been really liking a 1200 word chapter sometimes, but I think because there's so many points of view and timelines, I can afford that more. Although one book that has really short chapters is all the Colors of the Dark by Chris Whitaker, which I really liked. And there's tons and tons of chapters. They're so short and I loved it. But I also found it somewhat pointless at times. I guess it's different book to book. But if given a choice, I will always take the short chapter book over the long chapter book. Pretty much always.

A (21:24)

What about you? I said that I felt I was always kind of tuned into Sarah's chapters as kind of one voice that stood out to me. I also always found myself sitting up a little straighter when we got to the school principal's chapters because I felt like, I don't know, this could be untrue, but like she felt more unbiased in some way. Were there points of view that you felt particularly connected to or that you were like, gotta sit up straight for this one?

B (21:53)

Yeah, that's a good question because I definitely would find myself paying attention to certain perspectives and then sometimes the content would make me question if it was really that important, if that makes sense. Which then really gave me a lot to think about in terms of my own biases for like who I want to believe and who I won't believe and that kind of thing. But I liked the points of view from Fiona, Zora's friend and all of the teenagers because I really felt that it was such a good portrayal of teenage friendship, teenage girl friendship, because there is like concern and care, but there's also selfishness and jealousy and it's all wrapped into like this one package. And I thought that was done very well because it Also served to make you question what was actually going on even more. But it felt totally true to the experience of being a teenager as well.

A (22:49)

Yeah, I love the general dichotomy between the perspectives within the Afghan community. That chapter break where it was the Afghan community member saying how permissive the family was. And then the next chapter, and this was even before Azora got in any trouble, like forging her report cards, et cetera. One of her friends saying her parents were so strict and giving examples that, you know, given my own upbringing, I would have said the same about them being very strict.

B (23:19)

Yeah, I listened to an interview with this author and, like, she made it a point to say that, like, this book is not a portrayal of every Afghan person. Like, you know, Afghan people aren't a monolith, which I found to be a really important thing because I think she does such a great job of showing that within the book. But then the fact that she always makes a point to say that, yeah, even within this book, there are so many different perspectives shown, so many different cultural groups within the larger cultural group and habits and traditions and conclusions. And still this doesn't cover it. And I thought that was just really fascinating. Well, let's take an ad break and then we will discuss more. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now that we are rapidly approaching the midway mark of the year, just a couple months to go, it's a good time to check in about how you're feeling about money. I know I have been thinking a lot lately about when and how I spend money, and it is not always the most comfortable thing, but it does help. And when the stress does get to be too much, I never hesitate to talk it through with my therapist. But if just the idea of money freaks you out, I promise you, you are not alone. Finances can be a major source of stress for so many people.

A (24:45)

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B (25:09)

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A (25:41)

Okay, so you did some deep diving into the author, the inspiration, like, please show and tell for me.

B (25:50)

I started just kind of listening to a lot of podcast interviews, and then I got deeper and deeper into the Internet. So the author, interestingly started writing this book 10 years ago, and it was based on or inspired by a news story out of Canada, which is where she lives, about a father and son convicted of murdering four, four of their family members in an honor killing. It was three sisters, and then this father had two wives, and it was one of his wives.

A (26:19)

Oh, wow.

B (26:20)

Yes. And he had two wives because his first wife wasn't medically able to have children. And so as part of the culture, it was acceptable for him to get a second wife. So actually, the father, the son, and the other wife were all convicted for this. And this led me on a rabbit hole about this incident itself in relation to the book, but also about honor killings, which I think everyone kind of knows generally what that is. But I had never heard of this new story, and I was wondering if you were the same, like, had you heard of this story out of Canada? Does it ring any bells for you or. No, no.

A (27:00)

I'm glad you brought this because I was wondering if there was a real life inspiration the deeper I got into this book, but I hadn't heard any of the detail the Canadian case.

B (27:10)

So I listened to the podcast and I heard her talk about this incident. And then, of course, I looked it up. And what's really interesting is that it's not just like, this was an honor killing that happened. The actual details of the case are so similar to the book. So, for example, the daughters and the mother are found in a car submerged in water. It happens around Niagara Falls.

A (27:33)

Oh, wow.

B (27:34)

The daughter had run away to a shelter and said that her parents wouldn't let her marry her boyfriend and she feared for her life and all this stuff. And that was really fascinating to me. And it actually. Do you remember when we read that book by Sochiel Gonzalez that was based on the real life story of an artist?

A (27:56)

Yes.

B (27:57)

What do you think about fiction like this that mirrors real life events so closely?

A (28:05)

Okay. I like it because I feel like I'm learning something because I don't really read nonfiction, so it's. And especially if I'm reading things about it after, like, oh, like the force of such beauty is kind of loosely Based on Princess Charlene of Monaco. And so then I went down the rabbit hole reading about the real life Princess Charlene of Monaco. And the same, I remember, with the artist from Xochil Gonzalez's book. I got really deep in reading about that. So I like that it's kind of the fiction nonfiction blend. But I'm on the outside of this. But I do know that there is, like, much more nuanced conversations about this happening in the true crime space, about making content out of. I mean, I guess that's different too, because that, in a lot of cases, truly is nonfiction. It's creating entertainment out of details of the case. But I feel like you probably have much more thought through feelings on this in a complimentary way.

B (29:02)

Yeah, no, I don't know. I think I'm conflicted about it because when I heard this was based on a news story that she had read, I was like, oh, okay. You know, that makes sense. We all have similar impulses when writing fiction. I think it's inspired by something that happened, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

A (29:20)

Was it a big news story? Did you get any sense of that?

B (29:23)

Yes.

A (29:23)

Okay.

B (29:24)

So I did some research looking at the evidence against them, and it seemed, like, pretty agreed upon that they did this because there was a piece of their headlight of their car stuck in the car that had submerged. So the idea was that they drove into it and pushed it off the side of the cliff into the water. And they were like, why would that be there unless that was the case? When I kept reading and the details so closely lined up with the book, it was at that point that I kind of felt. It's not that I have any judgment towards it. I just kind of, from a, like, creativity standpoint and a story standpoint, I wonder, like, would this be stronger if it was different? You know, and if you are gonna make it so similar, should you really be, like, mentioning these people's names in every interview you do or in the book itself even, you know, and, you know, I haven't listened to every interview, but I don't think there is any sort of author's note in the book about this family.

A (30:18)

There wasn't.

B (30:19)

And from an artist standpoint, I just. I wonder about it. It doesn't make me have any feeling that the book is less than because of it. I just thought if I was doing this, would I have changed the accident or would I have changed the running away to the shelter part of it? Like, there's just a lot of really close similarities. But, yeah, I don't know. I just think it's an interesting thing to discuss in fiction.

A (30:43)

I mean, to play devil's advocate, though, no matter how many details you take from an experience, turning it into a Pacey narrative is still so much work.

B (30:54)

Oh, of course. Yes, 100%, yeah. And I also think there is something really powerful when discussing a topic as important as this and as horrific and complicated and nuanced and being like, this is something that actually happens, and not just the act itself, but everything around it that happens in culture. And I think the book explores that so well. But something else I wanted to mention is that doing research about this case and the book afterwards, I got into a lot of articles about whether or not to call these honor killings versus domestic violence, which was something I didn't really consider while reading. I wanted to read this quote. There's an article from the Montreal Gazette which we'll link in the show notes. But I wanted to read it because I thought it was really interesting. So it says, and this is in regards to the case that I was just talking about, which was around this family called the Shafiyya family. But okay, so this says calling the murders honor killings accomplishes two goals. First, it makes it seem as if femicide is a highly unusual event. Second, it makes it seem as if femicide is confined to specific populations within Canada and specific national cultures or religions in the world at large. But Canadian statistics prove otherwise. According to stats can figures, from 2000 to 2009, an average of 58 women a year were killed in this country as a result of spousal violence. In that same period, 67 children and young people aged 12 to 17 were murdered by family members. In contrast, recent estimates tell us that there have been 12 or 13 honor killings in Canada in the last decade. It does not take a genius to see that comparing 12 or 13 against the hundreds of women and children who are victims of familial violence serves only to frame honor killing as peculiar, when in reality it is part of a larger pattern of violence against women. So I just found that interesting because I think that because honor killings are obviously tied so closely to Islam, it serves to further kind of other the religion, even though the vast majority of people who practice Islam do not believe in honor killings under any circumstances. So I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that? Obviously it's a lot, but I just. I had never thought of it through those terms, and it gave me a lot to think about.

A (33:29)

Yeah, I haven't either. I don't feel comfortable that I'm gonna say the right thing now. So I feel. Not by you, but I feel, like, put on the spot in a way where I'm, like, terrified of messing up right now.

B (33:40)

I mean, it's really complicated stuff, so I get that. It made me think about how honor killings are not the norm within Islam. And I have stats that we can put in the show notes, too, that I won't list here because they're not very interesting to listen to. But I think it's interesting how Islam is obviously a religion that is mostly practiced by brown and black people. And I don't know if you call it honor killings instead of domestic violence, which is something that is perpetrated in every single religion in the world. It just. It makes it seem, I think, as if this extremist view within a larger religion that is not extreme is inherently part of it. I don't know. Just thoughts about. Just casual thoughts.

A (34:28)

Yeah. I thought kind of the theme of this Islamophobia in the book was really interestingly handled. One thing I will say is I could not quite get a handle on what year the book was supposed to take place in. I didn't feel like it took place in 2026, but they had cell phones. It seemed like maybe it was somewhere in my head. I think I netted out somewhere pre Covid. And it didn't seem like 911 was very recent in the book, which obviously stoked an enormous wave of Islamophobia in the United States. So it didn't feel like they were grappling with the direct aftermath of that. So I was trying to figure out where it was. It was also a very interesting treatment of it because eventually the Schirra family becomes so rich.

B (35:18)

Yeah.

A (35:18)

And they're still othered by their community. Oh, you know who else's perspective I thought was really interesting was the nosy white woman neighbor who kept wanting to insert herself in it, even though she hadn't seemingly talked to them outside of the confines of any drama that was happening. But she kept wanting to go over there, and her husband was like, leave them alone. But I thought it was really interesting that in her earlier recollections of them, it was all very sweet about the children running around and playing and them all being so nice. And then later she kind of flipped on a dime of, like, that they were not good neighbors. They hadn't integrated themselves into the community. And how happy she was that a nice white family moved in. And so I thought that the treatment of Islamophobia was so interesting. And maybe not one I'd seen before.

B (36:09)

Yeah, I agree. Lots to discuss. But the ending, please. What do you think happened? Do you have a take?

A (36:19)

Okay, so I can tell you what I was hoping was going to happen and didn't. I really hoped that there was going to be one tiny kicker chapter from. I was thinking maybe the younger siblings who didn't really get that much attention, or maybe the brother.

B (36:36)

Oh, I forgot about them.

A (36:37)

I don't know. Zora's ghost, somebody. I was hoping there was just, like, one teeny, tiny chapter at the end which would help tip the scales one way or the other. And, like, tell us what the author believed, because in reality, it's based off of a real news story. But these are fake people. And, like, it's up to us whether it was an honor killing or whether it was an accident. Like, nothing happened to their fake people. You could convince me either way. I tend to lean. I would say 70% honor killing. And I say that because of two factors. Okay. The first is the brother's Internet search history. It just felt too suspicious.

B (37:19)

This is the thing for me.

A (37:20)

And when it was explained about the car dealer who had gone to jail and he was wondering what would happen to his assets, I found that believable. But it was the number of times that he had Googled that specific place that he had never been. I was like, this seems so suspicious. That seems so suspicious.

B (37:37)

I'm definitely with you. Yes.

A (37:39)

The other one is a lack of something that happened. So throughout this whole book, over and over again, I was given to understand that Sharaf, the father, was a loudmouth. He was not going to let anything lie. He was going to have an opinion. And I have got to believe that if that man was innocent, he would have been speaking to the press. He would have been telling everyone in the Afghan community how wronged he was. And there did not seem to be a ton of that. And, like, no matter how much of a muzzle this lawyer tried to put on him because of the legal process, like, I just do not believe that he would not have been talking to everyone about how unfair this was if he was innocent.

B (38:29)

It's an interesting point. I didn't think about that.

A (38:31)

Like, he didn't shut up when he should have. And so the fact that he was silent throughout the kind of the last 15%, I was like, that says something.

B (38:42)

Yeah. You know, for me, like, when I read the book, there were moments of real, like, care that stood out to me with her parents. And I think of, like, when he was bringing the professor the fruit I thought was so sweet. And it was hard for me to then make the leap that they could have done this. And then I listened to all the interviews, and I saw how closely the case mirrored this real one where they did do it. And I kind of think that it was an honor killing. But the author in interviews said that she never had, like, an. A definitive ending in mind. Cause she wanted to write the chapters where the idea was that they did it, she wanted to believe that they did it. And the chapters where the idea was that they didn't, she wanted to believe that they didn't. So she really went back and forth like that, which I thought was interesting. But, yeah, like, if you're gonna mirror the case that closely, I kind of think that, yes, they did it.

A (39:35)

Yeah, it's hard. Once you put the real life case

B (39:37)

into it, it does change things for sure.

A (39:39)

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I said earlier that I really want to talk about this book's package, meaning the COVID the title, the marketing copy, which are all really vague. But having read the book, do you have any better ideas of how to pitch it? Because it's a gamble, like, to acquire this book. Because, you know, if you name it honor killing, you give away up front what the biggest twist is.

B (40:09)

I hope that title wasn't on the table.

A (40:11)

No, I'm just. That's a terrible idea. And, like, what do you put on the COVID of this? Like, I. Honestly, after finishing the book, I was like, I don't have any better ideas.

B (40:21)

I see you put the UK cover in here, and I don't feel like it's any better.

A (40:25)

Yeah, the UK cover, if you are driving or you can't Google it or you don't want to. It's green, it says good people and very big font. And then it has a teenage girl peeking, I guess, kind of around a corner. She has a very neutral expression on. She's not wearing, like, a headscarf or anything. She has long hair. You can't tell what she's wearing. She's wearing black. It looks like maybe a T shirt. Like, it's not very conservative garb. It's equally vague.

B (40:58)

Yeah, it is.

A (40:59)

And then the quotes on it are. Just one of the quotes is addictive. The next one is spectacular. The last one is thrilling. So again, it gives you literally no indication.

B (41:10)

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think I kept trying to, when you were talking, think about different covers or things it could have nodded to. And I just don't. I think it kind of has to be vague. You know, it's a word of mouth bucket. It's kind of like the Correspondent with the Birds. You know, it's like, you don't look at that and think, oh, this is what it's about, or I really have any idea of it.

A (41:31)

I mean, it seems like Amy Einhorn is a gambling woman acquiring these books that, like, necessitate word of mouth, which is so difficult in this current publishing landscape. Yeah, seriously.

B (41:45)

I think, you know, it's definitely a book where the content speaks for itself, and you kind of have to trust that. I do think the US Cover is a little. It's a little, like, lighter than the book is. You know, the book is very serious. There's almost no, like, lightness in some ways. But, I mean, I think it's a pretty cover. I mean, it looks nice.

A (42:05)

Yeah. I wonder if, like, putting some type of thing in the marketing copy of, like, was it a suicide? Was it an accident? Was it something more nefarious? Like, something along those lines? It just says, a tragedy that befalls an Afghan family. And I was like, what kind of tragedy? I mean, I can't obviously say what I would have done, but I think there is a scenario in which I could have DNF'd this book had we not been reading it for book club. Because of the first 40%, I just felt kind of adrift.

B (42:36)

I was gonna ask you that. Yeah, I can see what you mean. I mean, I think you can't. The thing is, you can't really. I don't know, though, on the same note, if Honor Killing was somewhere in

A (42:47)

the copy, I wouldn't have said honor killing, because I think that twist was, like, my jaw dropped because I wasn't even thinking of that.

B (42:54)

Like, you didn't think she was gonna die?

A (42:56)

No, I mean, I knew she died. I knew she was in the car. Although I'd started to wonder if it was somebody else in the car, if it was, like, her boyfriend or somebody. Because I was like, this all feels too obvious, and it's, like, dragging on. So I was like, maybe it's her boyfriend in the car. Maybe it's, like, her and the brother or something. Like, I. I wasn't sure what was gonna be the reveal. I didn't think it was just as simple as, like, it was just her. But when the honor killing, I can't remember exactly how the reveal came about, but, like, I was gobsmacked, so I wouldn't want to spoil that. But I think there's a way to, like, be like, was it a murder or something? I don't know.

B (43:34)

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall for these marketing and publicity discussions.

A (43:38)

So Pandora Sykes in her newsletter, has this book club called Two Girls One Book Club Club. And her and Achuco Akpubovo do a monthly book club. And they read this for maybe marches. And I don't remember who one of them was saying that this book really reminded them of Trust by Hernan Diaz. Have you read that before?

B (44:01)

No, I started it, but I couldn't get into it, so.

A (44:04)

And I agree with it because that also is a book about, like, what's true, what's not true. It's very different. It's set around, like, the Great Depression financial crash, like the 1930s. But a lot of it is about, like, how a man made his money. And I think that that really felt like the steer of the beginning part of this book was, like, how Sharaf made his money. Like, I thought it was a very different book.

B (44:27)

See, I loved that part of the book because I. I just thought it was so interesting the way that the points of view in the community changed towards him as the story went on. Oh, I just found that it's so clever. But I. Yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, for sure. I'll have to try the book again. Maybe I still have it.

A (44:46)

I enjoyed it. I was surprised by how much I enjoyed it because it's also historical, which is not my thing.

B (44:51)

It's good to know. Putting it in context of the beginning of this book does appeal to me more. Definitely.

A (44:57)

Okay.

B (44:57)

Okay. I wanted to know if there are any other books that you can think of that have this sort of format. What's kind of interesting is that I've heard a lot of people talk about this, and I mentioned this at the beginning, but as a documentary, which, as I was reading, I was not thinking about at all.

A (45:15)

Weirdly, no, I wasn't either. Because it did feel like the interviews were not static at one point in time because it felt like people's views were even changing from one chapter of theirs to the next. Like using the neighbor lady as an example. It felt like once reveals happened, people changed their minds or, you know, it felt like it was almost like. I don't know, it's not an oral history, but it's like it was like snippets that were taken over time, like a longitudinal study.

B (45:45)

Yes, I totally agree with you. I know that, like, Daisy Jones is Written in documentary style format, right?

A (45:53)

Yeah. That's an oral history.

B (45:54)

Okay.

A (45:55)

It's like a VH1 behind the Music.

B (45:57)

Different than this, obviously.

A (45:58)

Different.

B (45:58)

Yes.

A (45:59)

And longer chapters.

B (46:01)

Okay. Are there any other books you can think of that are like in this world?

A (46:06)

Do you know what it reminded me of, which is not a perfect comp whatsoever, is Anxious People by Fredrik Backman.

B (46:13)

I don't think I've read that one.

A (46:14)

That is a much lighter subject matter. But the story is about. It's told from many different points of view of people who, some of whom know each other but are like all from very different backgrounds, et cetera. It's about all of these people who get stuck in a holdup at a real estate showing.

B (46:39)

Okay, yes, this is ringing a bell. And it's like, I mean, I know Frederick Brockman, obviously.

A (46:45)

Yeah. But it's much more, you know, Fredrik Backman's books are all like kind of heartwarming and you know, it's a. It's much different than it is, but it's like very different perspectives on the situation that is happening and what you think isn't what's really happening. Like that part reminded me of it.

B (47:02)

Interesting. Well, maybe I'll check it out. I mean, I've read Beartown and I liked it. So yeah, add it to the list.

A (47:08)

And then, I mean, small chapters, totally different plot. But like I found Broken country by Claire Leslie hall to be so crushable because of the short chapters. So if you're just looking for short chapters, maybe you're right.

B (47:21)

I'm thinking about it. I couldn't remember that having short chapters, but I guess.

A (47:25)

Oh my God, such short chapters. Like three pages max.

B (47:28)

Huh. Interesting. Well, thank you for reading this.

A (47:32)

I really enjoyed it. No need to.

B (47:35)

I'm so glad you liked it. I really do think this is gonna continue to pick up a lot of steam. In a weird way, it's kind of, I think could appeal to a lot of different readers. Even though it's its own thing and

A (47:49)

a great in person book club book.

B (47:51)

Yes. I can't wait to hear what listeners thought happened at the end.

A (47:56)

Did you see the Facebook group thread about it?

B (47:59)

Oh, I lightly browsed it, but that's it. Any consensus there on the ending?

A (48:05)

People were saying that they felt bad saying this, but they did think it was an honor killing. So I wonder how your insight into it being based off of a real case will maybe alleviate some of that guilt. Or that was the author's intention.

B (48:25)

Well, let's get into some end.

A (48:26)

Wow, Olivia. I See, we are on slightly different pages of the same textbook obsession.

B (48:32)

We're taking a hard turn.

A (48:34)

What are you obsessed towards?

B (48:35)

Bravo Land? I'm obsessed with the new season of Ladies of London. I have not watched this series on Bravo before, but someone told me the latest season, Ladies of London, is excellent. I tuned into it and, my God, it is one of my favorite things ever. It is so perfect. It's so, so perfect. There's the University of Florida alum on there. Shout out. Yep. At one point, they're playing champagne pong. And she's like, I went to the University of Florida. I know how to play beer pong. And I was like, yep, let's go, gators. Anyway, so it's so delightful. I love English people.

A (49:16)

I love London, but they're Americans on it. I actually watched an episode of it this week, too.

B (49:22)

Oh, my gosh, which one?

A (49:23)

I think the most recent one. They went to whatever it's called. Yeah, they went to the Longleat. Oh, my God, it was so beautiful.

B (49:32)

It's this gigantic manor that's also a safari park for those listening. And one of the women on the show, she's a marquess, baroness, something. She, like, runs it, and it's unbelievable. And they're, like, fighting in the gardens, which is lovely.

A (49:48)

So I did watch an episode this week. My friend Molly, who I'm visiting up here, is Bravo obsessed. And so we watched it and I was compelled by it. But I don't feel like I can take it on because I am taking on another Bravo project. Like, to pitch you.

B (50:05)

I am also watching this, so I can't hear you. Okay. So you don't need to pitch me. I'm locked in. But, yeah, tell me about it.

A (50:11)

I am obsessed with the Real Housewives of Rhode Island. I find a lot of these Bravo shows overwhelming because I'm a completist and I'm not going to go back and watch however many episodes. But this one just started. There's four episodes out. So Molly was like, why don't we do this together? So we watched the first three episodes, and then we watched the new episode on Sunday. Olivia.

B (50:35)

I hate them all. I just would like to point. I think Ashley actually seems kind of nice.

A (50:39)

But first of all, how did they find however many of these women who all look eerily similar to each other?

B (50:48)

Yes. Yep.

A (50:48)

You cannot tell them apart. And two of them have the same plastic surgeon and look identical. Identical meaning Liz and Dolores. It is. Oh, my God, it's such good television. It is so eventful. Like from the jump. Something came across my Instagram feed where Paige desorbo was talking about them and talking about how she watched it, and she's like, usually it's hard because in the first season, like, nobody's famous yet, so you're not fighting about who's more famous. And there's not enough drama built up. And in this one, it's so wildly dramatic from the jump.

B (51:25)

It is. Yep.

A (51:27)

And, like, it's also ridiculous in a way that is so funny to me. Like, the woman's family complaining about how far she lives away and it's 15 minutes.

B (51:39)

Yeah, it's all ridiculous, that's for sure.

A (51:42)

I love Alicia. There's something so ditzy about her. That is.

B (51:46)

Is she the one that's been in jail for 13 years?

A (51:49)

Yeah, she's the one.

B (51:50)

And she has the dolls.

A (51:51)

Yeah. With the dolls. And she hit the woman with her car. A story that she told on Watch what happens live and does not make more sense the more details you find out.

B (51:59)

I think she's the most likable one. Maybe Ashley. The rest. I'm like, I pray I'm never in an elevator. Stuck with you.

A (52:09)

The accent. Oh, my God. I like. I. I love it.

B (52:12)

It's a joy. They're all doing great. I can't wait to see what happens. I can't say I am liking it as much as Ladies of London, but I am enjoying it.

A (52:19)

Okay. I'm not steeped enough in ladies in London to do an either or.

B (52:23)

Yeah, well, give it time.

A (52:25)

What about on the reading front? I was very surprised by what you read this week.

B (52:29)

Yes. So I read Bad Words by Reanac Robinson, which is out October 6th.

A (52:35)

Perhaps the most advanced buzz I've ever seen for a book.

B (52:39)

Yes, this is buzzy. Copy buzzy. Emily. Henry said this is like the best book of some incredible blurb that I can't say off the top of my head. So I was really curious and I requested it on NetGalley and I got it and I read it. And I think also it's because it's about a critic and an author, and she poorly reviews his books, and then, of course, they fall in love. That's not a spoiler. I don't think it's a romance.

A (53:06)

You know, that's where it's going.

B (53:08)

Yeah. So I love stories about writers and publishing. Of course. I really like this. I mean, I think I liked it as much as I could like a romance. I thought it was really charming that, you know, I love a texting, emailing, Sort of vibe. And that section in the middle of

A (53:24)

the email really did it for me.

B (53:26)

Yeah. I was just, like, smiling ear to ear in some parts. I was like, oh, my gosh, I do love this. Sometimes with romances, I feel like I'm, like, so obsessed with it. And the banter part and, like, the lead up and then they get together. I'm just like, okay, I don't care as much by the end, but I thought it was really sweet. I totally get why it's getting so much praise.

A (53:45)

Well, in this book, it's a lot more enemies than lovers. Like, they don't get together for a really long time, which I think worked for me.

B (53:53)

I think it really worked for me. I love a slow burn. I do. And so I enjoyed that a lot. I'm sure the movie rights to this have been sold.

A (54:01)

I haven't heard anything, but I would not be surprised based on how buzzy it is.

B (54:04)

Do you have, like, a fan casting? Because I know you read it and you. You liked it? Loved it. I can't remember.

A (54:10)

I liked it. I have a decent amount of, like, jealousy about it because it's coming out the week before mine and it's so buzzy. So I'm not the right person to objectively judge it. I thought it was really interesting. I'm really curious about how it will work for readers because it is so, so publishing centric in a way that I really care about because I work in this industry. But, like, I wonder how it will work for people outside of it and who are not early readers reading on NetGalley who are obviously equally invested in the industry.

B (54:40)

I thought the same thing because I think the thing that really, like, brought it to another level for me is that I thought the commentary on criticism and negative reviews and, like, the subjectivity of art and writing was so fascinating. And it really made me look at it through a lens that I have not. And I think for a romance to do that is so refreshing. And, yeah, I don't know, it just gave me a lot to think about. And it was cute. But, yeah, it is very, like, inside baseball in some parts. And there was some stuff that was almost too inside baseball. It was like, oh, I don't want. It was just like, you know, advanced numbers and rankings and bestseller list stuff. And I was like, oh, I don't want to think about this. We'll see how it does.

A (55:29)

Yeah.

B (55:29)

What did you read?

A (55:30)

So in addition to Good People, I also read the Shampoo Effect by Jenny Jackson, which comes out June 30th and I just recently had reread Pineapple Street. I'm reading a bunch of multi POV books as research for my third book. And so I was so curious to kind of read it back to back, because I'm obsessed with the idea of sophomore novels and, you know, how people approach it. And I just. I really wanted to see if I could tell the growth between it, how similar it was, how different it was, especially because Pineapple street was so successful. And, okay, it's really clear that it's the same author, but also the book is totally different. So. Pineapple street is so New Yorky. It's about a family. This one is set in a fake coastal town in Massachusetts, and it's about a friend group. And it's about this friend group who've known each other since high school. It's a very incestuous friend group. They're in their 30s. They all have children, but they still, like, party. Like they're in their 20s. Like a very fratty social group. And this woman comes from New York City. She gets a writing grant, and she comes to this small town, and she immediately falls in dating this guy from this friend group. And then very quickly, it comes out that another girl in the friend group is pregnant with his child, even though they're not together. And so it's, like, very dramatic. Do you know what this book reminded me so strongly of?

B (57:05)

I don't.

A (57:06)

An Ellen Hildebrand book. Like, the multi pov, the coastal setting. That's pretty elite. It was so Ellen Hildebrandy, which I never would have thought of with Pineapple street because it was in the city. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, like, is Jenny Jackson the heir to Ellen Hildebrand?

B (57:23)

Fascinating.

A (57:24)

I really liked this. I love her writing style. It's, like, ultra specific. This one was plottier than Pineapple Street. So if your problem with Pineapple street was that it was, like, a little too meandering, this is definitely more plotty. I really liked this.

B (57:39)

Okay.

A (57:39)

It's like, it's very soapy. It's a perfect beach bag book.

B (57:44)

Well, I'm sure we are definitely going to be seeing that one everywhere as well.

A (57:48)

Yes.

B (57:49)

Well, what is our May book club book?

A (57:52)

Okay. So I have been anticipating this since I read this book, which I think might have been, like, last October or November. We are going to read into the Blue by Emma Brody. I am so excited about this book. This book is a romance. It's about AJ And Noah, who meet as teenagers working at a video store, and he is the son of a famous acting family and his aunt trains both of them in acting. And then just as it seems like they're about to get together, he disappears. And then they come in and out of each other's lives a few different times over their adulthood, both making their way in the entertainment industry. And I kind of think that what Deep Cuts is to music, this book is to improv comedy. So if you like snl, anything like that, this is very steeped in that world. This is also, bar none, the most interesting third act I have read in a romance, maybe ever.

B (59:02)

Wow.

A (59:03)

I read it last year, but it's my favorite book of this year. I'm going to reread it again so I can claim it as my favorite book of the year. I would compare this to like Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow meets my Oxford year meets audition by Katie Kitamura and somebody DM me and they were like, well, I didn't like audition. So I'm wary of this because of your pitch. It's not as meta, so like, don't worry about that. But it I don't want to give away too much. It does have to do with like a play in the acting world. You'll oh my gosh. Oh my God, it's so good.

B (59:39)

I have lots of thoughts and expectations for this and I have for some time now, but I will save those for the episode and simply say that I am excited to read it.

A (59:50)

I will also say that if you do not trust me because I'm a romance reader and so you're like, I'm gonna skip this book club because this is up Becca's alley and we're different readers. Grace read this and loved it too, and she is not a romance reader.

B (60:05)

I've heard tons of people of all types of readers like this, so yes, there's a lot about it that I have a Spidey sense that may work for me. Okay, we'll see.

A (60:17)

Well, I can't wait to read that and discuss that the last Wednesday in May. In the meantime, come talk to us about this book in the Facebook group. You can also come talk to us in the BFF group. You can talk to us on Instagram. We're Batonpaper podcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is@beccafreeman substack.com and I have a book coming out in October that I would love for you to pre order that's called Back Where We Started. And if that doesn't work for you, you can add it on Goodreads. You can potentially request that your library stock it. It might be a little too early, but doesn't hurt. Those are my things. What are your things?

B (60:54)

I'm oliviamentor. On Instagram. On the. I was about to say the Internet. And substack. And also the Internet. So, yeah, I'll see you guys there. Bye. Bye.