July 2026 Three Things

Summary

Bad On Paper – July 2026 Three Things
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Date: July 15, 2026

Episode Overview

In this dynamic "Three Things" episode, Becca and Olivia share a highly relatable mix of pop culture musings, literary insights, productivity talk, personal highs and lows, and spirited banter. This month’s edition covers everything from a surprising dentist visit, to the logistics of going phone-free, to the cultural epicenter created by Taylor Swift’s high-profile wedding—plus, as always, their latest reading recs and obsessions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Highs and Lows (01:09–15:00)

Highs

• Becca: Embraced spontaneity during a heatwave, spending an afternoon at Chili’s and Five Below with a friend and her five-year-old daughter; enjoyed simple pleasures like coloring books and pottery kits.
  • “It was so nice to just be like, hey, you know what? I don't have to work today. I'm giving myself a day off.” — Becca (01:59)
• Olivia: Shared an emotional attachment to her towering fiddle leaf fig, which finally branched after being trimmed—despite nerves ahead of a major home tour photo shoot.
  • “The great news is that it took about a month and a half…but it has maybe five or six new leaves and a whole new branch.” — Olivia (05:45)

Lows

• Becca: Dentists and Health Anxieties – Grappled with dental woes, including a warning about loss of enamel possibly linked to sparkling water consumption and sleeping with an open mouth; resisted cutting seltzer but decided to try mouth tape.
  • “I've always said, if somebody says that I can't have seltzer, I'm going down with the ship.” — Becca (07:38)
• Olivia: Pet Panic – Recapped a harrowing incident where her dog Winnie escaped her office during a vital nail appointment, prompting a frantic neighborhood search.
  • “I'm watching it and I'm freaking out cause I don't know who's at the house. And I just see the door open and she's gone. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God.” — Olivia (14:04)

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2. Three Things Segment

Becca’s Things

A. Mayflower vs. Oregon Trail: Survival Scenario (16:52–21:57)

• A quirky dinner question leads to a spirited debate on which historical journey they’d rather endure. Both agree on the Mayflower due to its shorter duration and “legendary” factor despite the dire food (hardtack, pickled cow tongue) and constant low-level drunkenness.
  • “If you're on the Mayflower, there's a really deep sense of excitement…whereas on the Oregon Trail, I think it takes so long that you're probably…just get sick of it.” — Olivia (17:42)
  • “I don't mind the idea of, like, if I did die, just being thrown overboard.” — Olivia (21:36)

B. Writing Process: To Go Back or Only Forward? (28:31–33:36)

• Becca debates whether to revisit her book draft from the beginning midway through drafting. Both contrast their processes: Becca finds insight (and reassurance) looping back, despite “write forward only” advice, while Olivia usually delays this until outside input.
  • “I just kept going back to the beginning. And I think I was doing it for reassurance…But right now, I actually do think strengthening the characters is actually really helpful.” — Becca (30:44)
  • “You just have to know, at what point are you doing it because it’s the most productive thing versus are you doing it ‘cause you’re scared to move forward…” — Olivia (33:09)

C. Gen Z Authors in Adult Fiction (39:44–45:20)

• Becca ponders whether we’ve seen a “breakout Gen Z novel” akin to Sally Rooney’s millennial-defining "Conversations with Friends."
  • “Do you think we've seen a big Gen Z novel yet that's kind of akin to Sally Rooney…?” — Becca (41:18)
  • They speculate the wave may be about to crest as more Gen Z authors (and characters with new pandemic-formed perspectives) come of age.

Olivia’s Things

A. Odyssey Movie, Christopher Nolan, & the “Dumb Phone” Trend (22:14–28:29)

• Olivia is excited for the new "Odyssey" film, both muse on press tour fashion (Zendaya, Anne Hathaway) and discuss the creative allure—and logistical limits—of ditching email or smartphones (as Nolan and Ann Patchett do).
  • “He does not have email or a smartphone…If you’re going to commit, commit.” — Olivia (24:39)
  • They examine whether analog aspirations are profound or simply another consumer fad.

B. Book Length Preferences (35:21–39:44)

• What’s your ideal book length? Becca: 330–350 pages; Olivia: 360–380—but both agree anything in the ~90k word range can be typeset differently to appear longer or shorter. “If you put two books in front of me…one’s 500, six hundred, one’s like 150, 200…I go for the longer one.” — Olivia (36:52)
• Side convo: Movie adaptation covers on books—are they beloved or loathed?

C. Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce’s Wedding: Celebrity Culture Event of the Year (45:20–62:23)

• The hosts debrief the event’s wildest rumors, star-studded guest list, branding, and over-the-top details. Major points:
  • Adam Sandler as officiant?
    • “If you had given me a thousand guesses…Adam Sandler would not have entered the list.” — Becca (46:47)
  • Walking down to her own song?
    • “Is it a very egotistical move? Yes. Is she the greatest songwriter of our generation? Yes. Like, I don't know.” — Becca (48:47)
  • Luxury at scale: Both express curiosity about the logistics of celebrity events, the emotional realities, and which guests made their heads spin (Simone Biles, Brad Pitt, etc.).
  • Speculation: Both expect the wedding was exactly what the couple wanted, even if the style struck others as offbeat or “cheesy.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I've always said, if somebody says that I can't have seltzer, I'm going down with the ship.” — Becca (07:38)
• “It is not the Mayflower. It is not the Oregon Trail…disappointing.” — Olivia (29:15)
• “If you had given me a thousand guesses, five thousand guesses, to come up with who the officiant would be, Adam Sandler would not have entered the list.” — Becca (46:47)
• “Is it a very egotistical move? Yes. Is she the greatest songwriter of our generation? Yes. Like, I don't know.” — Becca on Taylor Swift’s ceremony music (48:47)
• “The more I think about the wedding, I think it seems like exactly what they wanted to do as a couple…” — Olivia (59:07)
• “You just have to know, at what point are you doing it because it’s the most productive thing versus are you doing it ‘cause you’re scared to move forward into the unknown?” — Olivia (33:11)

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Important Timestamps

• Highs and Lows: 01:09–15:00
• Mayflower/Oregon Trail Debate: 16:52–21:57
• Christopher Nolan & Digital Minimalism: 22:14–28:29
• Writing Process Discussion: 28:31–33:36
• Book Length Preferences: 35:21–39:44
• Gen Z Authors: 39:44–45:20
• Swift/Kelce Wedding Deep Dive: 45:20–62:23
• Obsessions (Mud Pie Ice Cream; Minionese Singing): 63:32–66:43
• What We’re Reading: 66:52–71:27

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Obsessions & What We’re Reading

• Becca’s Current Obsession: Emac & Bolio’s Mud Pie ice cream (coffee, Oreos, and chocolate chips)—“It is so good. I'm so happy.” (64:41)
• Olivia’s Current Obsession: Viral Instagram reel of “Fade Into You” sung in Minionese—“I was like, on the verge of tears…It’s just the weirdest thing. I think more people should be this weird.” (65:59)
• Olivia’s Book Rec: People in Love by Clare Daverley—“I did love it…I couldn't put it down.” (67:52)
• Becca’s Book Rec: Abby Offsides by Anna McCalley—Ted Lasso–esque, World Cup–ready, comedic slow-burn romance (68:54).

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Next Episode & Book Club

• Listener Pick July Book: The Burning Side by Sarah Damoff – family saga, multiple POVs (71:27)
• Bonus Summer of Soul Book Club: The Five Star Weekend by Elin Hilderbrand (discussed tomorrow)
• August/September Club Picks: One and Only by Maurene Goo (Aug 20), The Parisian Heist by Jo Piazza (Sept 17) (15:37–16:51)

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a perfect blend of delightful digressions, pop culture dissection, and candid creative talk, anchored by the hosts’ signature warmth and humor. Packed with listener-friendly literary recommendations, memorable pop culture takes, and genuinely fresh perspectives on everything from digital minimalism to the nuances of modern wedding spectacle.

For more:

• Becca’s newsletter: becca freeman.substack.com
• Olivia: @oliviamenter on socials

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[Listen to the Full Episode for More Bookish Banter & Next Month’s Book Club Pick!]

Transcript

[A]

Hi everyone and welcome to Bad on Paper podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today is our July Three Things episode. I think this is the fastest I've come up with three things.

[B]

You give me a hint as to the flavor of things you've brought.

[A]

We've got one pop culture, one half pop culture, half kind of just like lifestyle.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Productivity.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And one reading related.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

How about you?

[B]

I have one reading, one writing, and one weird thing.

[A]

Can't wait.

[B]

Well, before we get into this, this episode is sponsored by Sol de Janeiro, the Brazilian inspired self care brand we're partnering with for our Summer of Soul. We'll be together all summer long with bonus beach read book club episodes, in person events and giveaways. We'll tell you more about it later in the episode.

[A]

Well, let's get into some highs and lows. Tell me your high.

[B]

So my high is that last week during the heat wave on Thursday, I was texting with my friend Jenna, who has a five year old and they live in this kind of wonky loft apartment that doesn't have great ventilation. And she was trying to figure out what they were going to do that day to stay cool. And she was like, maybe go to Costco, you know, maybe go to 5 below. Just like trying to invent errands basically. And I was like, hear me out, Chili's. So we went for an afternoon outing to Chili's in Queens, and then there was a five Below in the same plaza where my friend Jenna's a preschool teacher and her daughter is five. And the two of them went absolutely Hamilton. And it was so fun. I feel like I'm particularly bad at taking advantage of having a more flexible schedule unless I'm traveling. For the most part, I am sitting my butt in my seat whether I'm being productive or not and forcing it. So it was so nice and it was so hot out. It was like 105 that day. It was so nice to just be like, hey, you know what? I don't have to work today. I'm giving myself a day off.

[A]

I mean, who's doing anything productive in 105 degree weather is my. So you might as well click it off at that point. I think what better way to spend it than at Chili's?

[B]

Truly.

[A]

Place of your soul.

[B]

Truly. And a five Below. Five Below is fun.

[A]

Yeah, I've only really been there once. We got like a bunch of candy because we were having a movie night. But I can't say I felt compelled to go back did you pick up anything fun or did you see anything that caught your eye?

[B]

I did get three things, ironically fitting. I got some weird jelly beans because I really like jelly beans, and I feel like there's not a lot of jelly beans in regular stores.

[A]

I do recall them having a lot of jelly beans there and, like, special edition ones.

[B]

Yeah. So I got some jelly beans. Then I got a pottery painting. Their jewelry dishes I got to do with Goldie, my friend's daughter, at some point during the summer when she comes over. So it's a. I think it's like a painting thing. It might be a painting and baking thing. I'm not positive if the trays are already made or if you have to form them and make them in the oven. And then I got a cool coloring book that I'm not sure if it's for me or, again, for Goldie if she comes over.

[A]

I could use a coloring day just to turn the brain off and color my heart away.

[B]

You were in a big adult coloring phase for a while.

[A]

Yeah, I was. I need to get back into it. I have a whole cabinet with all the materials right there ready to go. So I don't have a table at the moment, but I could probably. I could figure out a. Like, a lap tray situation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially as it gets hotter. Like, it just feels like a good idea to be in the air conditioning coloring. But those seem like good purchases to me.

[B]

Thank you. I agree. I think it was a total of, I don't know, $15.

[A]

Not bad.

[B]

Not bad at all. Tell me your high.

[A]

My high is we have this fiddle leaf fig that we've had for six years. At this point, I think we got it 2020, and it had gotten probably eight to eight and a half feet tall. It was really tall, but it was just one stalk. So technically, they're supposed to branch, but in order for them to branch, you have to cut them. And I just felt like I had watched this thing grow from, like, a foot and a half to eight feet. Tal. It's been with us through multiple homes and moves, and I couldn't bring myself to. And I was also. The house was being photographed for a Cup of Joe home tour, which I don't know when we'll be out, but I was like, I want this plant to be tall. But unfortunately, Jake one day just lopped it in half before. Oh, my gosh. On purpose? Yes. Because we have been talking about, oh, we need to trim it. We need to trim it if we're gonna keep it healthy and have it branch out. And I was planning on doing it after the. So it could like, look like its normal, tall, proud self in the photos. Unfortunately, it looks kind of like it's been through something in the photos now if it makes it in. But that's okay.

[B]

This is the lore that people who are seeing it will know that other non bad on paper listeners won't.

[A]

I'm sure someone in the comments is gonna be like, what the heck happened to that fiddle leaf? Let it go.

[B]

Well, fiddle leaf figs are notoriously hard to grow, so I don't think anyone would be judgmental.

[A]

Oh, I. I hope not. I mean, we really, we've really tried our best with it, but the great news is that it took about a month and a half to see this happen. But it has maybe five or six new leaves and a whole new branch. So it's really cool to see it healthy and thriving and taking on its new shape. Even though I was quite angry with Jake for a minute there. But it was the right choice in the end and I'm sure the plant is happy for it. So that's my high.

[B]

Oh, that's so exciting.

[A]

Well, what's your low? I'm really curious because I have actually had a similar experience. I see your basic low in the outline and so I'm. I'm curious to hear the details here. Tell us. Tell us your low.

[B]

My nightmare has come true. So this week I was at the dentist, and it was a strange day at the dentist. I felt like I was at a car wash. There were like so many people. Or like a F1 pit crew stop. I like, there were so many people coming in and out. They were very disorganized. Apparently the hygienist had to leave early because of a family emergency. So the dentist herself was doing my cleaning.

[A]

And that's weird.

[B]

Weird. And it was quite an aggressive cleaning.

[A]

Scary.

[B]

Yeah, scary. And at the end she was like, I'm noticing some of your enamel is wearing. I don't know what term she used

[A]

on your back teeth.

[B]

And she was like, have you noticed more dry mouth than usually? And I was like, well, I have had the sinus issue for probably about a year and I do think that I'm probably sleeping with my mouth open. And I've bought all the mouth tape and I don't use it because it makes me paranoid that I'm going to stop breathing in the night and I just need to get used to it. And I haven't. So I said that. And then she goes, well, also do you drink a lot of sparkling water.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

And this is the moment I have been dreading my entire adult life. I've always said, if somebody says that I can't have seltzer, I'm going down with the ship. And so she was saying that could also be the case, and I was like, no.

[A]

Oh. So do you need to cut back or.

[B]

Here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do nothing on the seltzer front right now because I actually have been drinking so much less seltzer since I. Because now. I don't know why, but now I have an ice maker. And for some reason, having very cold water makes a big difference. So I have been drinking more plain water. And so I'm wondering if maybe I've already corrected the problem. And I'm gonna try to get used to mouth tape and try sleeping with mouth tape to see if that helps too.

[A]

What did the dentist say about the mouth tape?

[B]

That she recommends it, but that she understood what I was saying about needing to adjust to it.

[A]

Okay. I wasn't sure if it was like a medically recommended thing or not, but that's good.

[B]

I don't know if it's medically recommended, but I do think dentists are generally pro.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

There are people that say that it. It helps with all sorts of woo woo things. And I. I don't know that that's true, but it does force you to breathe through your nose. So I think part of the problem I'm having is that my mouth is dry and my teeth are exposed to the air overnight because I'm breathing through my mouth. And so mouth tape would help that. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. Nobody listened to me. I already have to cut down my seltzer consumption. Please don't sue me on top of that.

[A]

Yeah, that's depressing. I don't know. I'm not saying dentists are wrong or we shouldn't trust them, but I do think that I have heard so many different things about my teeth from so many different dentists over the years because of how much I've moved around. I think I've probably seen five or six different dentists in the past decade, and every single time is like, slightly different. Different tale about similar things. Like, I just went to one last week and there's a whole backstory.

[B]

Can you have seltzer?

[A]

Oh, I can have seltzer, but apparently what I need is jaw surgery. Wow. And she was like, yeah, so I have a chipped tooth in the front. I need to get it fixed. This is part of why I've seen people a bunch to get different quotes. Cuz they're always like veneers, crowns, insurance, blah blah, blah. She's like, well, I can do that, but I just want you to know that before I do that, I have to tell you that your bite is so open, their skeletal structure is so messed up that you should probably have jaw surgery. And I was like, so they break my jaw and reset it? She's like, well, technically they would cut the bone. And I said, I'm going to stop you right there, ma'. Am. No, no, no, no. This is the jaw surgery. Sometimes people do it for aesthetics, like for their profile or their.

[B]

This is like a long con that you're becoming. Who's the guy?

[A]

Clavicular.

[B]

Yeah. You're entering your looks maxing era, Clotris guys. And you're like, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna drop this in the podcast so that when I have my jaw surgery nobody will think it's weird.

[A]

No, no, there's no way I would have it because if you're not experiencing

[B]

any pain or issues from it, I don't know why you would have voluntary jaw surgery.

[A]

I know. And I guess she says the issue is that my teet back are so ground down because the way my jaw moves, it's just constantly grinding them down. Which I've heard for years. No one has ever been like jaw surgery. She was like, you should have been in headgear as a child. I called my mom. I was like, did anyone mention headgear? She said, no. So I don't know. Anyway, I then went on Reddit and read one post about someone who if you have any issues with throwing up, maybe don't listen to this next part, but your mouth is wired shut afterwards.

[B]

I don't want to hear this. I don't want to hear this.

[A]

But like the fact that I would be like, yeah, you know, my teeth are a little ground down in the back. I think I'm going to do possibly vomiting while my mouth is wired shut. And then if I don't have that, definitely I will have a six week liquid diet. No, no thank you. Anyway, I am going back to her. To what? Get well, not for that. But she was like, I just have to tell you this person.

[B]

Go find a different person.

[A]

I don't. Because she's the second one I've been to to get a quote for my chipped front tooth. And I've been. Whatever it's been hanging on by a thread for so long. And I'm like, I can't. I just got to get this done. And I do think she's probably right. I know she's right about the bite being messed up. And maybe the way to fix that is surgery.

[B]

Extreme intervention.

[A]

I just should not be doing. Oh, I agree, I agree. I just. There's a lot of different things. I've heard many different things about my wisdom teeth, which I still have. Anyway, we get to the dentist for a while, but yes, clearly it's really helping. That's all. Okay, dentists, not fun.

[B]

So your low was not being told that you need jaw surgery. Something lower happened in the past week?

[A]

No, but it's kind of a long story. And we're already at 14 minutes. I don't know if you want to hear this, so I could save it up to you.

[B]

I don't want to silence you.

[A]

Essentially, I was having a manicure today and my nail person is so in demand, I have to book a month out. So this is kind of like a very important appointment. Jake was gone, so we had Winnie in my office. And I like. I was like, she'll be fine. Because with the contractors, they're coming in and out, we can't labor in there. I have a camera set up. I check in and Winnie is like banging the front door of the office open. She's jumping on it repeatedly because she can tell that it's like sort of opening. Barking non stop, Winning incessantly. Clearly having some sort of meltdown. The air conditioning was on. I had water for her. It's a big space. She had her little chair, bed thing. And I'm watching it and I'm freaking out cause I don't know who's at the house. And I just see the door open and she's gone. And I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. I had to leave the middle of the nail appointment. I was like, her name is Raelyn. I was like, raelyn, I gotta go. Charge me. I'm like running through the streets of Valley, which is this really small downtown. I was like, I hope I never have to run through the streets again. Speeding as fast as I can home. Long story short, the contractor heard her barking and let her out and put her inside. But I didn't know that. I just knew that she was not in there anymore. Now looking back, I was like, I don't think she could have shut the door herself. So I probably should have like connected some things there. But I was so panicked and like the adrenaline racing through my body. I'm like driving home looking for her in fields, like neighbors yards.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Anyway, that's so scary. She was fine. My nails are like half done.

[B]

What do you mean they're half done?

[A]

They're like, you can't really tell. I can just tell because she had to put like tips on two of them that broke and so they look. You can tell. But I'll go back. I emailed her and I was like, I'm so sorry on behalf of both Winnie and I. She's just a high maintenance dog, let me tell you. I didn't realize she had separation anxiety to that extent.

[B]

Well, it's probably also that she's hearing the construction noises.

[A]

Yes. I think she knew people were here so she was like, why am I not being invited into the party? But this is the lowest of my life lately.

[B]

Well, I'm glad Winnie is safe and sound.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

Let's take an ad break and let's get into some things. This episode is sponsored by Sol de Janeiro, the Brazilian inspired self care brand we're partnering with for our Summer of Soul. Because what goes better together in your beach bag than one of their perfume mists or their signature boom boom cream? And a really great read. We'll be bringing our community together all summer long to celebrate with three bonus beach read book clubs right here on the podcast, some in person events. We're headed to Chicago next week and we're so excited to see some of you and and product giveaways.

[A]

In case you missed it, our first bonus book club episode is tomorrow and we'll be discussing the five star weekend by Ellen Hildebrand, which is great timing since the adaptation just dropped on Peacock. And in our August 20th bonus episode, we're discussing one and only by Maureen Goo, a love triangle romance with a touch of Korean mysticism. And then for our September 17th bonus book club, we're reading the Parisian Heist by Joe Piazza, which is a dual timeline mystery featuring an all female art heist in the present set against the historical story of the woman who made Vincent Van Gogh famous.

[B]

And we're hitting the road. We're coming to Chicago on July 22nd. Tickets unfortunately sold out. They sold out so fast. Thank you to everyone who grabbed one. And more info on events to come in Miami in August and New York City in September. You can always head to batonpaperpodcast.com summerofsoul for the latest info and updates and we are so excited to bring our community together this summer. For more of what we love, discussing great books and obsessing over our favorite beauty products. Happy Summer of Soul.

[A]

Well, what's your first thing?

[B]

I think we should get the weird one out of the way first. All right, so the backstory here is that the other week I was out to dinner, there was a lull in conversation, and my friend Marge just says, which would you rather be? On the Mayflower or on the Oregon Trail? And the minute the question came out of her mouth, I knew I needed to ask you, because I feel like you are in your survival at sea era.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I just need to know what you would pick.

[A]

The Mayflower or the Oregon Trail?

[B]

Yeah, neither is great, to be honest with you. They're both.

[A]

It's. It's not. They're both known for disease, so we're not starting at a strong point there. One is on land, the other's on sea. I think I'm going Mayflower. I think. I think I am.

[B]

You're testing your sea survival.

[A]

I'm testing my sea survival. But I also think if you're on the Mayflower, there's a really deep sense of excitement. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whereas on the Oregon Trail, I think it takes so long that you're probably. And I don't even know how long one would take versus the other. But I think on the Oregon Trail. Trail. I don't know. I think you would just get sick of it. That's my. What's the thing that everyone got on the Oregon Trail?

[B]

Well, in the game, you got dysentery, but I don't know if that's true to the real life or that was just the floppy disk game.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well, of the game. What's your. What's your pick?

[B]

I agree with the Mayflower. I think that's a dicey decision, considering that I was just on a boat in Italy and threw up over the side because it was choppy while we were anchored. So I don't know that I have the seaworthiness to be on the Mayflower.

[A]

Maybe not. Yeah.

[B]

But I'm picturing the Oregon Trail as being really hot and dusty in a way that I just. I would not like. I wouldn't like it.

[A]

Yeah, it's a tough one. I'm going back and forth now, but I think, you know, the sun sets over the ocean would be nice.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You are pointed west. And then I did. Just as you were talking, I did some light research. And the Mayflower voyage took 66 days versus the typical Oregon Trail crossing took four to six months.

[A]

Oh, yes, Mayflower also.

[B]

Mayflower it is.

[A]

I'm gonna be down there with the rats in the underbelly of the ship, just having a grand old time. Ticking down the days.

[B]

How many people do you think were on the Mayflower? I looked this up before we recorded, and the answer surprised me.

[A]

437.

[B]

No lower.

[A]

263 lower. 7.

[B]

No more. Okay, so it was 102 passengers and 30 crew. 74 male, 28 female. Because I was trying to see how big the boat was, to see if I thought it was a large enough boat that I would do okay on.

[A]

I'm realizing I actually know nothing about the Mayflower. The more we talk about this, I knew Nothing, but like, 102 is kind of like a cozy little group, you know, it's kind of like below deck.

[B]

They were both crammed in. Yeah. I mean, it's not huge.

[A]

Okay. What did they eat? I guess there's scurvy to worry about, you know.

[B]

What did they eat on the Mayflower? Hardtack. A hard rock cracker made of only flour, water and salt. It was so tough, it had to be soaked in beer or soup before eating.

[A]

Salt Love cracker.

[B]

That was so good. Shout out to Alicia, our girl, who

[A]

I'm confident, all respect to her, that would not do well in a Mayflower, Just for the record. Would not do well even with the crackers.

[B]

Dried and pickled foods, not what you would expect. Dried cow tongue.

[A]

You had me at pickled. You lost me at cow tongue. Yep.

[B]

Grains, oatmeal, dried peas and wheat and beer. Because fresh water quickly turned foul on ships. So everyone, even. Even children drank low alcohol beer as a safe daily beverage. So you're kind of drunk on the Mayflower.

[A]

Some drunk kids just all the time,

[B]

consistently a little buzzed. That would help.

[A]

It may help. It may help. For the first week or two, by day 40, you're probably. You're probably over it.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

But I still think the more I learn, the more I'm like, yeah. And I think also I never hear anyone say, you know, my great, great, great, great, great aunt was on the Oregon Trail, But I definitely went to elementary school with someone who was like, yeah, my so and so was on the Mayflower, you know, so I feel like you'd have a chance of being kind of legendary.

[B]

Oh, I wasn't even thinking about it from that angle.

[A]

I mean, it's. It's an angle that you don't consider when thinking of survival. It's more of, like, ego survival.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you do die of scurvy, you'll die famous. Yeah. And I don't mind the idea of, like, if I did die, just being thrown overboard.

[B]

Yep. Rather than being thrown off your wagon and then, like, the buzzards get you.

[A]

Exactly. And like, the dry, dusty terrain. Yeah. I think that's the only choice, really.

[B]

Well, thanks for playing.

[A]

I mean, thanks for asking me. I'm really wanting to look up more information about the Mayflower now.

[B]

I can't wait until your survival at sea era grows to encompass the Mayflower.

[A]

It's only natural at this point.

[B]

Well, tell me your first thing.

[A]

Oh, gosh, I don't even know where to start. Yeah.

[B]

How do you pop the Mayflower?

[A]

Well, you know, actually, this is kind of a transition. Wow. So it's about boats and travel.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And survival. I guess. Do you have any plans on seeing the Odyssey? The movie? The new Christopher Nolan film

[B]

that did actually come together. You know what? I don't.

[A]

Okay. Not your thing.

[B]

No. I've read the Odyssey twice in school.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Once in high school, once in.

[A]

That's a college, I'd say.

[B]

I don't feel drawn to see it. Do you know that in my book, unrelated to this, that there's also an Odyssey themed movie? Just letting you know. Maybe I predicted this.

[A]

I didn't. I didn't. Wow. I did not know that. Maybe you did. That's good, though, to have that tie in.

[B]

No, I don't have any desire to see it. I have been keeping tabs on the press tour just for the fashion of it all. I've really. I always enjoy Zendaya and seeing what she's gonna wear. And also Anne Hathaway's really been bringing it with the pregnancy fashion, so I've been keeping up on that. I've gotten some Robert Pattinson clips where he says weird things on red carpets or impress tours. So I'm enjoying that. You know what I do want to see? Which was not your question whatsoever. I do want to see the invite.

[A]

Oh, I really want to see that too. I think I may like that a lot.

[B]

Well, so I'm curious about it because every review I've seen is either a straight up pan or calling it the most genius movie ever. There doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

[A]

That's my favorite kind of book. So, yeah, I think it might be my favorite type of movie. I definitely want to see this one as well.

[B]

Okay, well, same question, back to you. Do you plan to see the Odyssey.

[A]

I definitely will. I think I'm gonna go see it in imax. I'm really excited for it. It just feels like it's gotta be close to three hours.

[B]

Yeah, it is. Two hours, 52 minutes.

[A]

Yeah. I just think it's gonna be like an epic blockbuster. And I always love those type of movies, even though Greek mythology doesn't really interest me very much. But I love most of the actors. I'm really interested. But actually I wanted to ask you this partially because I saw an interview with Christopher Nolan, the director, where he said he. And I'm sorry if I've mentioned this before, I've told this to like 10 people because I cannot stop thinking about it. It's been like more than a month at this point. He does not have email or a smartphone.

[B]

I did know that. And so I think his wife has one or the other or both. So sometimes if you need to get ahold of him, you can email his wife.

[A]

I mean, and then commit. If you're going to commit.

[B]

Chris, if he wants you in a movie, I think you get word he calls your agent or something, then you have to go to him.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I don't know where he is. Headquartered somewhere in the uk. You have to go there.

[A]

Part of me is like, good for you. And part of me is like, how dare you.

[B]

You know who else doesn't have a smartphone?

[A]

Ann Patchett.

[B]

Yeah. Have we talked about this?

[A]

Yeah, maybe. I definitely have read an article about it before, but she had an email

[B]

in the New York Times. She does, she has email. And apparently I was listening to on a podcast, Emma Straub was saying that Ann Patchett emails as if it's text. Like she'll send you just, you know, like a five word email.

[A]

Which is like kind of annoying because at that point just get a phone. Yeah, in a way. But I mean, you know, I also understand it because then you can shut the laptop, move on. There's something about it that appeals to me though, I have to be honest.

[B]

Getting rid of a phone.

[A]

Yeah. And I also. This is like a sub point of the sub point to my point. But have you been noticing the new smart dumb phone trend?

[B]

Yes, I have.

[A]

And I just don't know if it's like we're just being sold another thing we don't need because we have no self control or it's kind of. To look at it more positively, part of this trend of people really craving more analog things, less social media, more, you know, voice to voice communication, calling versus texting or social media? I don't know. What do you think of all of this?

[B]

I see the appeal in theory. In practice, I could not do it because I need Google Maps to navigate.

[A]

Well, there are some where you have like maps, Spotify, texting or something.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that existed. I have thought about getting a brick. I mean, I haven't made any moves to, but it crosses my mind. I would say once every two weeks.

[A]

It's hard not to. It's like the Oura ring. It's just out there. It's everywhere you go. I posted about this on notes the other day, but I'm.

[B]

Oh, you're posting about wanting to use less social media on social media.

[A]

I know, but it was on my laptop and I was asking about deleting the Gmail app off my phone. Cause I find I'm just like walking through my house, just like checking my email a thousand times a day. And it's not even that I reply instantly every time. It's just become like a compulsive thing to do to open it a thousand times. And so I was like, well, maybe I could just, you know, I'm on my laptop a dozen times a day. Is that not enough for email? And then Andy Bartz replied and she was like, it's hard when you're an author because every email could be like the biggest thing ever or the worst thing ever. Of course, not really. Either way, we're all going to survive. But I don't know, it's just something I've been thinking about more and more as I feel myself drifting from the allure of social media. But I don't think I could go full Chris Nolan. It feels a little obnoxious if you're like, wife, can you please manage this?

[B]

Yeah, Jake has to manage all your correspondence.

[A]

Well, that feels better somehow. I don't know, but I feel like the woman shouldn't have to do it.

[B]

Oh, but it's okay for Jake?

[A]

Okay, yeah, yeah, sure. Also, Jake is, I feel like, much more rational. To me, Jake will be like, oh, I'll just reply in a day. Or, you know, it's not that big of a deal. We don't have to worry about it tonight, where I would just read it all night long, think about it, and spiral. But anyway, I won't make him do that. To be clear, I wouldn't make anyone else, like, shoulder the burden of my compulsive refreshing of Gmail. Well, what's your next thing?

[B]

Where do we Go next.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I think my shorter thing is probably a writing thing, but you never know. You never know.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. So this is gonna be my low. Last week I've been fighting with myself about going back to the beginning on my book. And I'm about halfway through a first draft, and I know it happens probably the next three or four scenes, and then I know it happens broadly. The characters go on a trip together and it's disastrous. But I don't feel like I know enough about the characters yet to understand how to make the trip disastrous. It's not as if they get food poisoning. Like it's interpersonally disastrous. It is not the Mayflower. It is not the Oregon Trail.

[A]

Disappointing. I'll still read, but disappointing.

[B]

I mean, maybe there's a whiff of that, but it's interpersonal disaster. And so I feel called to go back to the beginning. And I promised myself when I was writing this draft that I wouldn't go back because it became such a crutch for me with my last book with back where we started, that I just kept going back to the beginning. And I think I was doing it for reassurance where, you know, when I was in a rocky part, I would go back to the beginning and be like, oh, yeah, it's still like, there's something good about this. And so it wasn't actually useful because I should have been directing that time at the parts that needed fixing. So I think it just took me way longer than it might have otherwise. And I think there's a lot of writing advice of only write forward. Because, you know, until you have a full draft, you don't necessarily know what's going to make it into the book. And so you might spend a lot of time on something that isn't going to make it in. And I know all of this. And yet, I mean, spoiler. I already printed it out and I'm about 90% of the way through rereading. And I actually think it's been really helpful. Usually I would try to do a hands off reread and then mark it up. And I was like, nope, I'm just marking it up as I go. And I feel like I both know so much more than when I wrote it that I can fill in a lot of blanks and then things are coming together for me. It is useful. So I guess I wanted to know how it works for you if you are only writing forward in general or in a first draft specifically, or if you are kind of looping back or writing up To a certain point and then starting over. Like, how does it work for you?

[A]

Well, I think it's really tough. Historically, I don't go back to the beginning unless I am taking a break from it for some reason. Like, say I had a draft due to my agent, and, like, I got to a certain point, I was just like, I can't. Like, this is as far as I can go, or I'm behind or something. I'll send her what I have, and then when she sends it back with notes, then I'll go back to the beginning.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

But I wouldn't do it preemptively. Like, I would try to maintain forward motion as much as possible, I think, generally is what I've done. But, yeah, I mean, if it's working for you, I feel like try not to be too hard on yourself about it, because you're still working at it and making it better. It's just, you know, gonna take that much longer to write. The end, totally, at a certain point is like, the only thing that matters.

[B]

It is really useful right now. At some point, it becomes less useful. So it's, you know, don't let this prevent me from finishing the draft. But right now, I actually do think strengthening the characters, getting to know them more, figuring everything out before this trip is actually really helpful. But I think it's probably diminishing returns that, you know, then the next time I loop back, it's more solid, and I'm just tinkering. Like, I don't want to get to the sentence level, tinkering. But it is feeling really useful to me, and I'm happy that I did it. The other thing that I think it's helping with is that before this, the draft was such a mess that I would not have shown it to somebody else. But now if I get to the end of either this exercise or at some point, I get stuck. I do feel like I would now be willing to show this draft to somebody, like my agent or a peer, to help me think things through.

[A]

Well, that's a good sign, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Well, because the other one was there was messy bits in it and bits that weren't even written that I don't know, that somebody could make sense of what was there.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you are making forward progress, just not in the traditional sense of the word.

[B]

Yes. Yeah, I do feel that way. And also, maybe I'm just justifying myself, but my ultimate goal for this book is to give myself grace. And so in that spirit, that goal trumps Everything else?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think you just have to know, at what point are you doing it? Cause it's the most productive thing versus are you doing it cause you're scared to move forward into the unknown? I mean, that's the question that I think we're all grappling with. With writing.

[B]

Maybe. Yeah. So if in, you know, four months, I'm telling you that I'm going back for the third time, slap me. But for now, I feel okay.

[A]

Good. I think that's what's important.

[B]

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that book therapy session. Let's take another ad break and then I want to get to your next thing. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. BetterHelp recently released their 2026 State of Stigma report, which surveyed 2,000Americans and found that 85% of believe that getting support is wise, yet 74% also said that society discourages people from doing so. In other words, good for you, not for me. And I know that I've heard similar attitudes and conversations that I've had with friends and family members before, but I've gotten so much out of therapy, whether it's discussing the big things or just day to day stressors.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Okay, so my next thing you can choose. We have a relatively quick bookish thing or we have a giant chunky pop culture moment of our times that I think is going to take a lot out of both of us.

[B]

Let's do the quick thing.

[A]

Okay, so this question was posed first I saw by Jordan Bojigian. She has the composite substack and she asked, what is your perfect length, length of book as a reader? Like when, what are you drawn to the most? What is the number of pages that really speaks to you?

[B]

I want a 330 page book.

[A]

Okay. You knew?

[B]

Well, I mean, yeah, like anywhere between. I think 300 is slightly too short.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But it could like 320 to 350, let's say. I feel like a couple of years ago we were reading a bunch of books that all came in at 288 pages. And it happens that books tend to have the same page count because of the way that they print them. And I always marvel when somebody's able to fit an entire book in a satisfactory way. Like I think Heart the Lover was one of those books that was 288 pages. But I think if we're going every book ever, like, I find it a feat when somebody could do it more quickly. But I don't think that's the usual. So I would go slightly longer. But sometimes when I see especially a romance book is 450 pages. My gut reaction is why?

[A]

I understand that to me, I am more drawn to a longer book. Like, what's your idea? I would say sweet spot is 360 to 380.

[B]

Oh, that's not that long. That's like I said, that's perfectly acceptable. I thought you were gonna say 450.

[A]

No, no, no. That's not that long. But I think if you put two books in front of me and one is 500, 601 is like 150, 200, I go for the longer one. I think for some reason, psychologically it appeals to me more.

[B]

I think it depends who wrote it.

[A]

That's also very true because there's nothing

[B]

worse to me than, you know, when you read a book by usually an older person who's really legendary, and you're like, you refuse to be edited or your editor was too scared to edit you, and you're like, this book is way too long.

[A]

Do you know the page numbers of your books off the top of your head?

[B]

No. I want to say they're all just over 350 pages. What about you?

[A]

I think little one was 320. Hold on, I have it right here. Such about influence is 325.

[B]

So the Christmas Orphans Club is 3 68. Right in your sweet spot. And then back where we started is also 368. But here's the thing. I told you because they.

[A]

Yeah, they typeset it, but I knew

[B]

that how many words were both of your books? Because that could be deceptive. Like we are reading the five star weekend for a bonus book club tomorrow. And in my copy I noticed that it's not a large font version, but like the typesetting is very wide and the font is bigger than usual. Versus. I was just reading the Nest by Cynthia Dupre Sweeney, and I don't know if that was because it was from 2016 and our attention spans were. I don't know, we were much more used to not reading on screens. But I noticed that it was so tightly typeset and the font was so much smaller.

[A]

Hmm, interesting. I want to say both of my books were somewhere between 89 and 91,000. Oh, okay.

[B]

Same.

[A]

Yeah, There we go.

[B]

Same. So it is a typesetting difference. I think the Christmas Orphans Club was just over 90 and back. Where we started, I think was like 89 something.

[A]

Did you notice in the new paperback of the Five Star Weekend, the chapters don't start on a new page?

[B]

Yes, that's the thing. No, I don't think so. It's in the old. It's the same in the old one too, because I read the old one because the type was bigger.

[A]

I mean, I will admit I don't love paperbacks that have the TV cast on the front, generally for adaptations. Like, I went to buy a hard copy of Leave the World behind the other day, which I have read, but I listened to it before, and at Barnes and Noble they had like a Netflix cover of it and then the original paperback. And I was like, yeah, I'll take the original paperback, but I get why they're important for sure. What's your next thing?

[B]

My last thing is I wanted to talk about Gen Z authors entering fiction. So this came up for me because a couple weeks ago on the podcast, I was very inarticulately trying to explain Phoebe Berman's gonna Lose It. I think I repeated a couple times that it felt young to me. And I don't mean that as a dig whatsoever, but the characters were young for. But it was also that. And you know, I read a lot of books where the characters are around 30. Like, I think in most Emily Henry books they're around 30. But these characters, on further reflection, I think, also felt generationally different for me, where it was not like, oh, I recognize myself in this younger person. And maybe some of that is because of these severe mental health struggles that this particular character is dealing with. Like, it might be a one off, but I just felt like the way that she related to her friends and to the world was just slightly different. And so I was thinking about that. I was also thinking about Lost Lambs by Madeleine Cash, which I haven't read but has been getting a lot of acclaim. And I looked at both of these, and I don't think either author actually is Gen Z. They were both born in 1996, and the cutoff for Gen Z is 1997. So I think technically they're like, a year off. I would give it to them. They're definitely very fringy. But I was wondering, do you think we've seen a big Gen Z novel yet that's kind of akin to Sally Rooney Conversations with Friends being, like, lauded as the first millennial novel?

[A]

That's a good question.

[B]

I'll also be curious if listeners have seen anything, because I realize that I only read certain genres, so maybe I've missed the boat on other. Like, if there's a great Gen Z thriller that I don't know about.

[A]

I don't think so. I mean, I would say those two books you mentioned, if asked. And I guess technically they're millennials, but. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. I'm sure we're about to. I. I think so, too.

[B]

It's exciting.

[A]

Well, I was just listening to a podcast about this trend of, like, Gen Z filmmakers with back rooms and obsession and how it's a, like, very different point of view. And I had. I hadn't really thought about it. I saw obsession. I do want to see back rooms. But, yeah, I think that's just happening now. So I wonder if we're, like, we're about to hit it for Gen Z. Like, true Gen Z. Deep Gen Z.

[B]

So Sally Rooney published Conversations with Friends when she was 30, and so 2027 will be the year that the oldest gen Z turns 30.

[A]

Yeah, that seems about right. Yeah. My brother is 97, although to me, he seems more like a millennial, to be honest.

[B]

Well, I think those cuspiers are hard to claim either way.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. I'll be really curious to see. I also will be really interested to read, and this might be more like 10 more years down the line, but to read novels from people who grew up, like, who were really kids during the pandemic years, like, not teens, almost adults, but truly children, because I think it'll be a totally different point of view that I would just be really interested in.

[B]

You know, the other person who came up for me when I was researching this and thinking about this is RF Kuang, who's been lauded as kind of a wunderkind because she started publishing so young. And according to Google, all of this is via Google. I don't actually know when Madeleine Cash's birthday is, but I Think she just turned 30. So I think she's born in 1996, but I think Rebecca Kwong was also born in 1996. So it doesn't quite hit the criteria. But the other thing I was thinking about her is that because so many of her books are in fantasy worlds, they don't really reflect Gen Z themes necessarily because they're not about contemporary characters for the most part. And even with Yellowface. Am I remembering correctly? How old were those characters? Like, I feel like they were in their 30s.

[A]

I wouldn't be surprised if late 20s. But, you know, I remember reading that. I don't think I was still in my 20s when I read it, but I remember reading that and feeling like it felt very millennial to me in a way. I don't know, know, like it felt true to everything I had experienced. Not like, obviously the racial stuff, but in terms of just like the general mood, the vibe, the criticisms, the social dynamics.

[B]

So a quick Google says that the main character in it is 27 at the start of the book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was wrong. It is about. Theoretically, it could be about people who are Gen Z. It makes me so curious to see how that will change fiction. I also remember reading last year Daddy Issues by Kate Goldbeck. And I think Kate Goldbeck is a millennial, but the character in that book was Gen Z. And it was very much about a character who had been kind of failure to launch because of the pandemic. She went to grad school that couldn't get a job, and so she was living at home. And I remember feeling like, oh, this feels very different to me to read about Gen Z characters.

[A]

Yeah, I think we're gonna see more for sure. I met this woman at a couple different events. Her name is Julia Pike. But she has a huge book coming out next year with Riverhead, I believe. And I wanna say she is Gen Z for sure. But I think that book is gonna be a big deal and I think that might be a Gen Z moment.

[B]

Okay, well, I'm really excited to continue this conversation in the Facebook group and see if anyone else can point to a book in any genre that they feel like is the breakout Gen Z book. What about you? What is your last thing?

[A]

We must discuss the wedding. We must.

[B]

Which wedding?

[A]

Olivia, we must tnt. We haven't really talked about this. It's been a whirlwind. I feel like, personally, I was not convinced it was going to be there until it was.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. Same. I was convinced there was a theory that it was a record Label launch. I just. I could not conceive of her getting married without natural light and just how romantic she is and how she's spoken about places. That's so vague. But I just. I really felt, you know, her getting married in the countryside somewhere, at a castle or, you know, I didn't see Madison Square Garden. Although there was one piece of social media content that really did help to convince me, which was busy. Philip said on her Instagram story, she was saying that every celebrity wedding she's been to has sucked because you can't hear anything because it's getting buzzed by helicopters or drones. And so I was like, oh, that's pretty valid.

[A]

Yeah. I understood it more and more as I thought about it, especially through the lens of, like, so many people say, I just want to have the biggest party with possible with all my friends. And I think they took that very, very seriously. Can I just name some quick fire aspects of the wedding? Get your thoughts on them, please. Right off the bat, Adam Sandler is the officiant.

[B]

If you had given me a thousand guesses, five thousand guesses, to come up with who the officiant would be, Adam Sandler would not have entered the list. I thought that was Mad Libs. I thought that was AI. I thought that was a joke. I was shocked. I could see him doing an oddly sweet and tender job at it.

[A]

Yes, he's a deep guy.

[B]

I know, but I would not have expected it.

[A]

It shocked me at first, but then I thought, I kind of get it. It grew on me more than some other things that as time has gone on, I've become more and more like,

[B]

wait, I don't want to derail us too far, but if you could have any celebrity officiate your wedding, who would it be?

[A]

I mean, this is kind of similar, but I do kind of feel like Will Ferrell could be fun.

[B]

Oh, yeah, he'd be really fun.

[A]

I feel like if you're. If you're going for big party, good time, everyone in a good mood. But also, you know, there is the tenderness. And they do have that connection from the absolutely horrible golf movie sequel they were in together, him and Travis. What about you?

[B]

Probably Oprah, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah. That's good. That's good. But then I feel like it would be almost 2. It would be intense. But it's Oprah.

[B]

She'd bring the gravitas to the moment.

[A]

The difference there, I think, is that if I had any major celebrity officiate my wedding, that would become, like, the most exciting thing at the wedding. The good thing about their wedding is, like, it doesn't really matter when the most famous people in the world are already present. Like, no one is favored by Adam Sandler because they all already know him.

[B]

True.

[A]

Basically. Except for, you know, the random Chiefs player like partner that's there. Okay, so this next detail, I have been stewing privately with this. I have a lot of weird thoughts about what do you think about her walking down the aisle to her own song?

[B]

It was reportedly an instrumental version of her own song. It wasn't her own vocals, which would have been weirder.

[A]

Agreed. Love story is the rumor.

[B]

I don't know. I don't mind it. Is it a very egotistical move? Yes. Is she the greatest songwriter of our generation? Yes. Like, I don't know.

[A]

To me, it's just a little cheesy tacky. God love ya.

[B]

There's also something about that. She is a songwriter and that is theoretically what she wanted when she was. I don't know how old she was when she wrote that song. Seventeen, let's say maybe older. And then she is having this fairy tale wedding. I think there's something really full circle about that. That's kind of lovely.

[A]

I can see that. I mean, I. She has said, like, she. Or maybe I've read this, that she said this at the wedding, but I think she has implied that she wished she had met him, someone like him in high school or, you know, that's what she had been looking for since she was a teenager, writing these songs about grand gestures. So in that sense, I like it. In others, I'm like, I just don't know.

[B]

I think if any other artist got married to their own song, I would find it horrifically cringe. But I really do think that, you know, who's gonna write a better walking down the aisle song, a contemporary walking down the aisle song, than Taylor Swift.

[A]

That's a good point. What else? Do you have any thoughts on Dior dressing them both, giving everyone free bags?

[B]

No. I would love to see the dress though. I assume, hopefully, maybe by the time this goes live. It does sound like she is expected to post it on her social media. Coming from that statement from Dior.

[A]

Yeah, I think so. I have a theory that she's gonna post the wedding album and then the next day a new album will be announced.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I think she's gonna time the buzz about the wedding photos to some sort

[B]

of musical announcement, which theoretically would be the first full Travis album.

[A]

Right. And if I'm remembering correctly, I don't think That. I mean, she announced the new album on New Heights and then literally got engaged right after. And then two weeks later, I guess she announced it publicly, but that was a year ago because she had all those meetings with, I guess, country music radio professionals in the weeks before the wedding. I just think something is afoot.

[B]

Okay. I do think she is still gonna launch her own record label. I do think that that's coming. Ed Sheeran just left his label, and so I think either I don't know if he'll sign as an artist or if they'll do it together because he also produces so much. I do think that there's a record label coming.

[A]

Yeah. I think it will be on the heels of the. I think she'll use. She's just too savvy. She'll use the wedding excitement and roll it right into this next thing.

[B]

I have a question for you.

[A]

Yes?

[B]

How do you think they know Brad Pitt well enough that he made the invite list? Is a question I have.

[A]

Well, I was gonna ask you. Who is the most question mark attendee? I think. No, I know he was on New Heights.

[B]

So any New Heights guests? Guests?

[A]

Glennon Doyle. Yes. Huh. Or Abby Wambach, I guess.

[B]

Who was the weirdest for you?

[A]

Brad Pitt definitely gave me pause. I was like, huh, okay, there's that. There was someone else. There were so many people. It's, like, hard for me to wrap my brain around it. I can't remember. Is there anyone else that you were like, that's interesting.

[B]

It's not that I doubt it or I don't think, like, I'm not shading it at all, but I really want to know how Simone Biles. Who invited Simone Biles? Is it Travis through the sports world, or is it Taylor Swift through, like, the female empowerment world? Like, how do they know each other?

[A]

Maybe both. Maybe. I don't know. They were like. This makes sense.

[B]

I'm really not curious.

[A]

Where's this list? Give me a list of all the people. I need to see a list because there were people. Hold on. Let me find this.

[B]

Was there anyone you were surprised outside of of the Blake Lively of it all? Was there anyone you were surprised was not there?

[A]

I don't think so. I mean, I did have thoughts about Blake Lively because whatever drama went down between them. I mean, you said, outside of this. And I'm like, no, let me talk about Blake Lively. But I thought, what I wouldn't want for my wedding is, like, a headline to be the Blake Lively wasn't invited. So I kind of Feel like she was and she just didn't go. I don't know. I guess they had a real falling out. I did read through their leaked text messages or not leaked messages.

[B]

Do we 100% know that she wasn't there?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I know she was spotted at a horse show the night before the rehearsal dinner, but on Saturday, was she spotted somewhere else? Because the other thing I've seen people talking about is that the closer people are to Taylor, the less you're seeing them. Like Emma Stone was photographed leaving, but you know, there was no like getting ready photo. Like a lot of the, the Chiefs players, a lot of the sports people posted photos of them of their outfits at the hotel and like with the Taylor Swift lyric and like we're clearly really excited. But then it does seem like the people who were like most close were very tight lipped.

[A]

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I can imagine it was so hard to just not answer questions. Did you see The Ryan Seacrest RCP'd? Yes. But then he couldn't go, no. Yeah, I guess he got asked to host some fourth of July thing for some network.

[B]

I would have been like, I'm sorry, I'm unavailable.

[A]

But something that was funny to me was like, Millie Bobby Brown went. And then the next day it was like, Millie Bobby Brown parties in the Hamptons. Like, it's just so funny to me that like you will go to this, the biggest event in pop culture of the decade. And then the next day you'd be like, I have to go to this like Hampton's Smart Water event or whatever it is. You know, it's just like they move on. It's just a bunch of celebrities in a room. Like to them it probably feels like the Oscars. It's like it's just a day. Yeah, yeah, it's just a day with a bunch of famous people.

[B]

I truly have to wonder how some of the spouses, partners, whomever who were, you know, the plus ones of people who don't work in this industry. Like there had to have been somebody there who was like a random school teacher or you know, like, you know, who was invited. And like just being in the most star studded room where theoretically people probably have their guard quite down, you know, it's not being broadcast, there are cameras. So it's not, I think it was being filmed. So it's not as if you're totally, you totally have your guard down. But I don't know.

[A]

I kept thinking about Travis's parents. Just like looking, I know they're divorced. But just like looking at each other at some point and being like, how the hell did we get here? Like, what has happened also?

[B]

Oh, you know the other detail that I found? So I was like, this is absolutely not a wedding is on Friday when Donna was arriving at LaGuardia at 2pm and like flu commercial and is just walking through the terminal. And I was like, this cannot be the wedding.

[A]

I had the same exact thought. I was like, okay, this is. I don't know, I should say I'm very happy for them. I'm very happy for her. Could I have done without the whole like the fact that they made a logo for their wedding? Yeah, didn't love that. But that felt like a weird cheesy vibe to me. Also, do you think the just married sign was an ad for at&t? Does at&t still exist?

[B]

At&t still exists. They're my phone provider.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

No, I don't. Yeah, Excuse me, customer service. Can you connect me with your head of marketing? No, I haven't asked. I don't think it's an ad.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Is that a rumor?

[A]

I think people just thought it was very weird.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

And cheesy. And part of me was like, do you think MSG was like, we're just gonna do this for fun. Maybe we'll surprise them. 35 year old executive was like, watch what we're going to do.

[B]

Wow. Wow. Did you hear also that there was late night karaoke and.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

That sounds so fun. Not to perform. I wouldn't in no way want to perform, but to hear these people doing karaoke. I think it was said that Taylor Swift did three songs with Ke$ha. Like incredible.

[A]

I literally just got chills again thinking of this because to me it just sounds like the most fun party. Does it sound like the most romantic, intimate event that everyone keeps saying it is? Maybe not. Does it sound like the most fun ever? Kind of. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is probably what they wanted.

[B]

Well, you know what, who I was so happy about being there. Jenny Han.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Jenny Han was such a fan and there was so much of Taylor's music in the summer I turned pretty. And I didn't know that they had a personal relationship, but I saw the photo of Jenny Han like walking in, you know, like she wasn't arriving via. Yeah, I saw that limousine and I was like, oh, I'm so happy for you.

[A]

One last thing I have to ask you. How do you feel about their hall of pictures?

[B]

Well, I am very invested in the rumor of if they have a dog.

[A]

Okay, me too. And do you think the reason they didn't share about the dog is because it's probably not an adopted dog and they were worried about backlash? Like, why else would you not share that?

[B]

I don't think so, because her cats are both purebred, so I'm sure she's getting some level of that anyway. I mean, I think maybe dog people are more intense, but it's not as if her cats are, you know, shelter cats.

[A]

That's very true. I guess it's because they linked it to Travis on the podcast, saying, like, taylor got me a gift, but I'm gonna keep it private. But I'm like, why would the dog need to be.

[B]

Maybe it's a security thing because the dog will need to be walked outside in a way that the cats won't. And so it could be a tell of, like, when they're in residence at X, Y, or Z place.

[A]

And it's like a recognizable dog. You know, it's white and fluffy and cute.

[B]

I could see it being a security thing. That must be really fascinating. Like, as much as I hope someday Taylor writes a memoir, it would be really interesting to hear a memoir from, like. I mean, I would love Trey Payne's memoir, but I would also. I think it would be really interesting to read a memoir about the security, about just, like, the logistics of traveling as Taylor Swift, of like, the security concerns and the entourage and the stuff that goes with her, like, in this, the documentary for the Eras tour, like, seeing that she was bringing her cats to hotel rooms, I was like, just. And also just, you know, I would have watched a whole separate documentary on the logistical travel of, like, the setup and takedown of the sets. But I'm like, oh, I bet there's, like, just, like, some really interesting stuff that I don't know who it would be. Like, the head of security, the head of transpo, like, that somebody could write 100%.

[A]

Yeah, I would definitely be interested, I think. I don't know. The more, I guess in conclusion, the more I think about the wedding, I think it seems like exactly what they wanted to do as a couple, and

[B]

she would have been doing it this way if they didn't want to. Like, I think we know that she knows how to disappear. We know that her camp knows how to keep a secret. Given that this album she recorded in Sweden and nobody knew about meaning Life of a Showgirl. Like, I think if they wanted to get married at a castle outside, like, they could have found a way to

[A]

do it for sure.

[B]

And so I think this is what they wanted and, like, good for them that they got it.

[A]

Final question. When pictures come out, do you expect to be like, oh, yeah, that's kind of what I thought. Or like, blown away or to be maybe. Okay, this is more cringe than I thought. Where do you think you're gonna land?

[B]

I expect it to be exactly what I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ball gowny princess dress, red lip, whether her hair is up or down, you know, like a standard kind of like her style. What about you?

[A]

I'm more curious about how the room looks maybe than her dress even.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

But I think it will remind me of their engagement photos is what I'm expecting.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In like a more elaborate kind of way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's all I've got.

[B]

Thank you for bringing this to us. I wish.

[A]

Just a little piece of news.

[B]

We should have done, like an emergency episode because last Friday I was invested in this, as if it was personally happening to me.

[A]

Same. And no one else around me was like, everyone was watching the World cup and I was just like, I need to talk about Adam Sandler a lot right now. And no one had time for that watching the Argentina game. And that's fine. I understand, but I just. I had a lot going on.

[B]

Next time, Next go round.

[A]

Yes, well.

[B]

Yes, well, let's take another ad break and then let's get into some n matter. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass. When I co wrote the script for the first season of Rom com pods, I read every craft book I could get my hands on. But what I was desperate to know was what the process looked like for actual masters of their craft. And sadly for me, it was mid Covid and I don't think any master of their craft was going to take my call as an absolute novice. So one of the most formative things I did was watch Shonda Rhimes class on writing for television. Yes, that Shonda Rhimes, who created Grey's Anatomy and Scandal. And if you're a regular listener here, you know how frequently this comes up. For me, even years later, it was that impactful. And one thing that's really stuck with me is her wisdom that you don't need to write down every idea for a new project. Instead, she says she waits to see which ones keep knocking again. And that is how I landed on the idea for the book I'm working on now, because it kept knocking.

[A]

Learning from an icon is exactly how I felt when I watched Joyce Carol Oates class on the art of the short story on Masterclass and she really helped me understand and see examples of how a story can truly take any shape or format that you dream of. And it made me feel inspired rather than overwhelmed. So whatever you want to learn about, whether it's writing or maybe you want to apply the principles of improv to your life with Amy Poehler or design your dream home on a budget with Joanna Gaines, Masterclass has 200 plus classes across 13 categories like business, cooking, acting, wellness and more. And you can learn on your own schedule with video lessons or podcast modes. You can listen on your commute or download to listen offline while you're traveling.

[B]

More recently I've been listening to David Sedaris class on humor writing on walks in podcast mode and he is just so entertaining. Masterclass keeps adding new classes so there's never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you get at least 15% off any annual [e-mail] BOP that's 15% [e-mail] BOP. Head to masterclass.com BOP to see the latest offer.

[A]

Well, let's get into some n matter. Let's what are you obsessed with?

[B]

Okay, I am obsessed with this ice cream flavor. It is Emac and Bolio's mud pie ice cream. I think Emac and Bolios is a franchise chain. I think it might have started in Boston. I've had it before, but when it was so hot last weekend I was complaining that there's not really any ice cream places by me and I saw that there was an Emac in Bolio. So on Sunday when the heat broke a little, I went there and I've definitely talked about it before in the podcast, but my all time favorite dessert ever is the mud pie at Henry's in Palm beach and this ice cream is the equivalent to that. I am so happy.

[A]

What's in a mud pie flavor?

[B]

So it's coffee ice cream with Oreo and chocolate chips.

[A]

I think that sounds very good.

[B]

I mean I have to google this for you.

[A]

A lot of research happening today on bad on paper. A lot of mayflower and ice cream research.

[B]

Yeah, I guess it's just kind of like a coffee Oreo situation.

[A]

That sounds great.

[B]

Oh my gosh, it is so good. I'm so happy. It's like a little too close. Like it might be a little dangerous to be able to have access to the this at all times, but I would rather have access than not.

[A]

I remember their ice cream being really good. We had one when we lived in the Upper east side, and it was. It was a treat.

[B]

Well, I'm actually so. I'm so into this as an obsession that after this, I'm going to play mahjong. And it's my friend Merit's birthday this weekend, and so I'm going to get an ice cream cake with it.

[A]

Oh, that sounds very good.

[B]

Yeah. To bring over tonight.

[A]

Love an ice cream cake.

[B]

Me, too. What about you? What are you obsessed with?

[A]

With? I am obsessed with this video. Olivia, what is this? You don't know this? Oh, my God. How.

[B]

Okay, how would I know this?

[A]

So I don't know how I came across this reel of this woman on Instagram, this young woman, her handle is Ellamott, singing the song Fade into you in Minionese, which is the language that the Minions speak in Despicable Me. And I don't know why this made me laugh so much that I couldn't. I was, like, on the verge of tears. And then I started reading the comments, which are even better. Like, one was like, fade into Gru. And then it was you, a big minion guy.

[B]

I remember you were Minions for Halloween.

[A]

Yes, we were. Jake was Gru, and I was a minion. But for some reason, you just. You have to watch this video. So I've. I think it's going viral again because the Minions movie is coming out. But I discovered that it actually went viral on TikTok, like, in February or March. So I'm, like, very late. But now there's, like. There was a minionese singing competition. I think she got first place. But anyway, this video is hilarious. The comments make me laugh so much. It's just the weirdest thing. I think more people should be this weird. It's really impressive also, in a weird way. Anyway, that's my obsession.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You have to watch to understand. It's just. It's something.

[B]

I'm gonna take your word for it. What about reading? I am slightly scared to hear your review of this book. Excited and scared.

[A]

So I read People in Love by Claire Daverly, which came out in the UK last month and it comes out in the US next year. But I ordered it from Waterstones because I wanted to read it so badly. And this is a love triangle book. It's about a woman living outside of London. She has this great job, this really loving partner of nine years, and he proposes and she's excited, and she tells her sort of lifelong best friend about it. He's traveling the world. She hasn't seen him in 12 years. And he shows up at the engagement party and, you know, things get very. Yes, things. Well, sort of things get very, very confusing. Okay. This is the second book from Claire. Her first book was Talking at Night, which everyone knows Becca loves. One of my favorite books of all time. I loved it so much, this one. It has a lot of DNA in common with it. I did love it. I don't think I loved it in the way I love Talking at night, but I did really love it. The only thing about this book is that I forgot her style of writing is a little different because there's no quotation marks. Right, there's no quotation marks. So it's a really specific style of writing that just took me a little bit to get into the rhythm. Once I did, I loved it. I couldn't put it down. I found myself wanting to go back to it. This is not really a traditional romance. It actually gave me sort of past lives vibes in a lot of ways.

[B]

Well, I don't think that Talking at Night is a traditional romance either and having a happily ever after. And I think that with literary romance, it's not held to the same genre conventions of like the happily ever after. Happily for now. I'm so excited for this book. I don't know why my mind immediately went to I'm going to a wedding in Scotland in October and I'll buy it then as opposed to just ordering it from Waterstones now. But I have a pretty hefty tbr, so maybe I just will go with that and buy it in person.

[A]

Yeah, I would be very curious to hear what you think as another talking at night lover.

[B]

Yes, I identify as that.

[A]

Well, what have you read?

[B]

So I read Abby offsides by Anna McCalley. And this is a contemporary romance about a woman whose life kind of blows up. She lives in Boston. She finds out that her fiance is cheating on her, breaks off her engagement and applies for a job with a football club in Liverpool in the uk. And she gets a job working in social media. And she immediately strikes up this very close friendship. But maybe there's more. Do they like each other? Do they not with the team's newest recruit? And so I read this because, as we discussed in last week's episode, like, I'm very World cup pilled right now, so it felt very appropriate to read a soccer romance. And this book reminded me a ton of Ted Lasso. Like, it is a romance, although it's a very slow burn romance, which I did find slightly frustrating. Like there were so many near misses that I was like, oh my God, guys. Like, get it together. But there's also quite a lovely and decently sized B story of the team dynamic and her becoming friends with the whole team and the team's camaraderie. And I really liked that part too.

[A]

I've heard really good things about this book.

[B]

It was really cute. I would just say do not go in expecting. I think I maybe thought it was going to be spicier than it was. It is very slow burn.

[A]

Oh, that sounds kind of good okay to me. But I understand why that might not work for everyone.

[B]

Yeah. So that is what I read. But if neither of those two books appeal to you, we also have our July Listener Pick book club. And we're going to be reading the Burning side by Sarah Damoff. And this is a poignant family saga by the acclaimed author of the Bright Years. The story follows April and Leo, who are a married couple on the brink of divorce who were forced to reevaluate their lives after their house burns down in the middle of the night. And as I said, it's our listener Pick book club. So this was nominated by one of our listeners and voted on. And Allie, the listener who nominated it said that she read it in 24 hours. She couldn't stop. It's very character driven and they had her in a chokehold. So there's so much going on. It's multiple POVs, but it never felt confusing or impersonal and she felt like she was really the characters themselves. So it doesn't quite sound like a light summer read, but we do have our Soul Beach Read book club for that. But it sounds like this is going to be meaty and I can't wait to read it.

[A]

And just another reminder that our first Summer of Soul bonus book club episode is coming out tomorrow. We're going to be discussing the five Star weekend by Alan Hildebrand. So we will see you there. And if you'd like anything more from me, I'm oliviamenter.

[B]

All the places I'm on Instagram echamfreeman and my newsletter is at becca freeman.substack.com I have a book coming out in October that I feel like I need to switch into high gear promoting. It's called Back where we Started. I mentioned a couple times in this episode comes out October 13th. It's a second chance celebrity normal person romance and I would love you to pre order a copy.

[A]

You should do that. Okay.

[B]

All right, see you tomorrow.

[A]

Bye.