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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:23]
A
And today is our June episode for Three things.
- [00:28]
B
It is.
- [00:28]
A
It is. I have all bookish three things I fear.
- [00:31]
B
I was not sure if we were moving forward with having an overlap thing or not. So I have possibly four things. If we didn't do that. We'll see.
- [00:40]
A
We will see. Well, what's your high?
- [00:42]
B
Okay. My high is that Grace has been just all over the place, talking well behind my back, and it's making me feel so emotional. So first, the other day, she texted me and she was like, I snuck a mention for back where we started my book that comes out in October. Into. She did a guest post for Jenna Bush Hager's newsletter. So that was so nice of her. And then this morning, I woke up to a DM from Joe Piazza. Grace is on a writing retreat right now. And Jo was like, grace, can't stop talking about how good your book is. And, like, can I get an arc of it so that I can shout about it? I was like, oh, my gosh, this is so nice. Like the. The wing womanhood of this.
- [01:24]
A
That's wonderful. I read that post that she did for Jenna's substack, and it was so good and so many great tips, and I'd love to see the mention of your book. And I can't wait to get an arc myself. Well, so I'm just adding myself onto the list once again with Jo. I could request it on a netgalley, but that feels kind of weird.
- [01:43]
B
You can do both.
- [01:44]
A
Like, I kind of want the physical because, as you know. Oh, actually, yeah, you don't get to
- [01:49]
B
request it on netgalley.
- [01:50]
A
No.
- [01:51]
B
I feel like you deduct half a point for reading digitally.
- [01:54]
A
No, that's why I'm waiting. I'm waiting. Any book that I, for example, I just got approved for Barbara Kingsolver's new book, no Necklace.
- [02:02]
B
No, don't do that.
- [02:03]
A
And I want it so bad. But then I'm like, but will I enjoy it more if I read it physically? Anyway, I've already told you I want a physical arc, but I'm waiting patiently. But that's so wonderful and so nice. And I can't wait to hear and see more about that retreat. Cause it looked very cool.
- [02:18]
B
What about you? Tell me your high.
- [02:20]
A
My high is a big one. It's that we destroyed our entire kitchen.
- [02:24]
B
But in a good way.
- [02:25]
A
In a good way. Yeah. It feels like not the best time. Maybe there's a lot going on. But it also just feels like we've been waiting for this moment for so long. I can't. I mean, I can tell you because I have told you guys how long I have thought about taking certain things out of this kitchen. So to see it just down to the studs almost, there's a few things we still have to take out is kind of wild. Like to see what was under the drywall ceiling, to see the beams, like the very, very old beams. And unfortunately the plumbing that is exposed in the ceiling and all the problems that will create has been interesting. And then the floors, the old floors beneath the new floors that we're hopefully going to bring back and refinish, it's all very wonky. Like right now the floor is leveled with the other parts of the house. But when we take the floor that's currently in out there will be like a three inch drop down. But I don't know. I would rather have the old floors that match the rest of the house and a little drop down than have the bowling alley floors that we currently have. So anyway, it's just all a mystery. It's gonna be a lot. Someone told me to expect multiple mental breakdowns along the way, but that. That means it's going the right direction, to which I said so it's like writing a book and.
- [03:48]
B
Apt metaphor.
- [03:50]
A
And yeah, I. It just is. It's been good to like begin.
- [03:54]
B
I was saying to you before we got started that it seems like it happened so fast. Like it. It literally seemed like most of the. And maybe this was just Instagram. It seemed like most of the cabinet demo, like the fixture demo happened in like one day.
- [04:10]
A
Yeah, the majority did. I mean, we were very efficient. We were very motivated, I think. And I think when all is said and done, it'll maybe be like it took three days of work to get it all the way down to the studs. More or less faster to take apart
- [04:27]
B
than to put back together.
- [04:28]
A
Yeah. I will not be doing the putting back together at all. But I'm so excited to watch it come to life. Cause it's such a surreal thing.
- [04:36]
B
I'm so excited to see it via Instagram come together.
- [04:40]
A
Thank you.
- [04:40]
B
Well, wait, it looks like we both have nature related lows.
- [04:45]
A
Yes.
- [04:45]
B
Tell me yours.
- [04:46]
A
I am covered in mosquito bites.
- [04:49]
B
Are they in the house?
- [04:50]
A
I don't know. I think they might be in my office. And I'm not really like paying attention when I'm like zoned in writing or working. So it's. I think that could be the case because I've been wearing shorts more. Maybe they're in the house. But it's mostly my legs, which is so annoying. My ankles are destroyed. My knees are destroyed. I just. I forgot how much I absolutely despise mosquitoes. This isn't really a controversial low.
- [05:14]
B
Not everyone agrees to be.
- [05:16]
A
But I'm not saying anything interesting here, but I hate them. And they're back. But this is the price we pay for warm weather, I guess. What's your low?
- [05:24]
B
My low is male trees. Male trees are my low. Yeah, I'm. I mean, I have very bad seasonal allergies regularly, but I feel like this season is even worse, to the point where I started taking allergy medications so early this year. Like, before it got warm, I was ahead of it to make sure that I was covered. And then in the last couple weeks, they've been so bad. Like, my eyes have been so itchy where I'm, like, texting my most allergic friend, and I'm like, do you think it's possible that this bottle of allergy medication that I got is off? Like, do you think that it's possible that it's just not working? So then what I did is I switched allergy medication brands because I was like, let me see. But I guess they probably have different ingredients. And so now my allergies are even worse because I have to build up the new one, I think. I don't know how any of this works, but my allergies are so bad, and it's so dumb, and I hate that male trees have caused this.
- [06:26]
A
I have to tell you, I went to my car this morning, and it was covered in yellow dust, like, to the point where I had to put the windshield wipers on. Oh, God, that's the worst it's been. So it's definitely reaching a fever pitch, I think. But I hope it's over soon.
- [06:40]
B
Yeah, I hope it's over soon or this new allergy medication kicks in. Something.
- [06:44]
A
Fingers crossed.
- [06:45]
B
Okay, let's take an ad break, and then I want to get into things.
- [06:55]
A
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- [07:30]
B
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- [07:50]
A
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- [08:36]
B
Okay, Olivia, start us off. What is your first thing?
- [08:40]
A
Well, we sort of mentioned this in the last episode, but I wanted to talk to you about the quite remarkable response to yesteryear.
- [08:48]
B
Yes. Okay. Our overlapping thing. I wasn't sure if we were doing that.
- [08:52]
A
Yes, yes, I have. So I have a few specific questions for you because I have still not read this book. I will read this book. Whether we do it for the podcast or for something else. I will. But I haven't yet. And you read it?
- [09:06]
B
I did.
- [09:06]
A
Long before it came out, before all the hype. You loved it, but I didn't necessarily get the sense when you read it that you had a strong instinct that it would be highly divisive. I knew you said that it was a really unlikable character, but I can't recall some books you read and you know, like, oh, people are going to hate this or they're going to love this. And I didn't get the sense that that was your review. Maybe I was wrong. Feel free to expand. But I just want to know what your thoughts about the, I don't know, the intensity of the reaction and the divisiveness around this book. And what do you think of it all?
- [09:46]
B
Okay, so I knew that there would be controversy around it in some way, but the controversy that exists is not the controversy I expected. So because it's about tradwives, I thought maybe I can't think of who the two main tradwives are. Ballerina Farm and the Model 1. You know, like, yes, I thought maybe somebody would have like, a strong public reaction that they had been misinterpreted. Like, it's. It's obviously very controversial topic matter. So I thought, like, in a zeitgeisty way there would potentially be backlash and. Or backlash from. It does involve somebody in a religious. Coming from a religious background. So, you know, a reaction from people who are religious.
- [10:30]
A
Right.
- [10:31]
B
Outside of that, I expected it to be a crowd pleaser. But my experience of the book, and I'm not this book's target reader. I'm not very much of a thriller reader or a suspense reader. And overall, the topic matter of the book was too bleak for me. Like, the. The book was very bleak, but the twists and turns kept me going and the twi. The big twist at the end, like, made the book for me. I was shocked. And I really enjoyed the reading experience on the whole. But what I've been really surprised at is that there's so much backlash to the book of people hating the book or finding the book predictable. There's like a reader backlash to it. Like, when I talked about it in my newsletter a couple of weeks ago, it felt like people were going out of their way to say, well, I hated this book. But on the whole, the book has 4.04 on Goodreads with 209,000 ratings, which is enormous. And that's a huge sample size to maintain an over four rating. So I'm like, so people do like this, but they're maybe not as vocal as the people who dislike it. Like, I'm really confused by the reaction.
- [11:43]
A
Even as someone who has not read it, I am baffled by it. And we've talked about this. But I do wonder how much of it started from a place of jealousy because it is such an open secret how much money she made from the book. Like, everyone in publishing knows whether the figure is accurate. Everyone knows the size of that deal. If you don't know, I'm sure you could google it and find it in 10 seconds. But millions and millions of dollars, right? I think that's fair to say.
- [12:11]
B
Everyone in publishing knows it. But are readers who are buying it in an airport privy to that?
- [12:17]
A
No, but I think what I'm saying is I wonder if the rejection of it started from people who knew that and then it kind of grew and grew and spread and spread. So. So by now it's Reached people who are having this outsized, oh, gosh, I hated this too. Reaction. Not really realizing that the basis for the hate is kind of something that happened at a much deeper level a long time ago. And it just sort of grew and grew and grew.
- [12:46]
B
I don't know that I agree because I feel like this book is just taken on a life of its own. It snowballed so much. Like, somebody commented on my post where we were discussing a little bit about whether it would be the book of the summer, and they said they flew that week and they'd seen three people reading it at the airport. Like, it just seems so zeitgeisty in a way that I find it hard to believe that all of those people are tuned into publishing drama, even if it's trickling down. Like, it just seems like such a mass thing. Like, it's really broken containment. But what I have been really surprised by is how many authors are publicly taking issue with it as a debut, which I find really icky. That's one thing I wanted to talk about about it. Like, I've seen, like, it's a very substack think piece fodder right now.
- [13:37]
A
Yes. And I don't understand that. It's not that you can't have critical opinions of popular books, but I think the opposite example of this is the Correspondent, where I think there's like a. An element of groupthink to. When books get this popular, there's an element of like, everyone likes this, and I don't want to be the only one who doesn't. Whereas I almost feel like with yesteryear, it's like, so many people hate this, so it's okay for me to jump on that bandwagon.
- [14:11]
B
But does everyone hate it?
- [14:13]
A
No. That's what people talk about. I think that is the thing that's resonating weirdly. And I don't understand that and I don't think it's Fair.
- [14:21]
B
It has 72,000 five star ratings. It has 89,000 four star ratings. People who are reading this, maybe they're not vocal, but on the whole, like it.
- [14:34]
A
I know, but I think, like, what's dominating the conversation is, you know, this wave of negativity about it. And to the point where I have heard multiple people say, you know, it's poorly written. And that's just an argument. And I haven't read it, but I have read some of Caro's writing and I just do not understand saying that about a book acquired by a highly respected imprint, a highly respected editor And I think some of that boils down to like, I think there is this rumor flowing that like, she had nothing written and she sold it on one sentence and then Anne Hathaway like wrote the story or something and like, it's just blown out of proportion to this place of like, she doesn't deserve this deal for this book. She's not even a good writer. And I just, you could say it's not for you totally, but I just don't know how you can possibly say that. Like, it's just badly written, period. I just find that really wrong and especially from writers and authors. And I have also seen the pushback that you've seen. I have my own, you know, shallow feelings of jealousy, as every author, I'm sure does. But to say it's poorly written, I just think is so deeply unfair.
- [15:48]
B
I also feel like priority from the author side. Debuting is such a mind fuck. And every author who's debuted knows that. And it's like, no matter the size of the deal, like that doesn't change the mental hurdle of putting your work out for broad scale judgment where you can't really effectively say your piece outside of the book. And yeah, like, I just kind of have this feeling of like, yeah, go to a cocktail party and talk about how much you hate it, that's fine. But like, don't do it online. Sit down and shut up if you don't like it. You know, like, this is a debut. If somebody had an issue with say, Ann Patchett's next book, I haven't read it. I'm sure that won't be the case. But you know, like, that seems fair. But like, to do it to a debut author, no matter how much money they got for their deal, I'm like, that's kind of screwed up. Yeah, like, it's mean spirited.
- [16:37]
A
I think so. I agree. I don't like it. It's been really weird to watch. It's just felt cruel, weirdly. And like you said, like, it is doing so well. So many people love it. I know personally, so many people that have loved it. It just feels like this thing that is bigger than the book itself. The content of it, it just feels outsized to me. Like the hate of it, the negativity, as you said, it does not feel fair.
- [17:01]
B
And I wonder. This is just me thinking out loud here, but this book is a very unlikable main character. The main character is an influencer. She's very nasty in her inner monologue about how she thinks about everyone in her life in the world. She's a. You know, you're not rooting for her. But I don't think you're supposed to be rooting for her. So that's not a design flaw. But I wonder, have we become more prickly to really unlikable characters. Than we were when, say, Gone Girl came out? And Amy Dunne, who was so prickly in her head, Was so well received, in a way. Maybe that's not quite the right wording. But, you know, we were. We were giddy about her and. Or is this something about how we perceive influencers as a culture that, you know, Amy Dunne as a wife. Who has this cool girl monologue we find we can relate to, but we don't care to. Even when Natalie, the main character in the book. Makes salient points about culture, about womanhood, about anything. Like, are we. Like, we don't want to empathize with her in any way? Not that, on the whole, the point is to empathize with this character. Like, she's a dislikable character. You're supposed to dislike her.
- [18:15]
A
Maybe. That's an interesting point that I. I haven't thought about. Part of me wonders, and this is maybe because I have written unlikable female characters. And I love reading them. So I have. I wonder if it's like, there's so many of them. That to do it in a way that people find acceptable has become, oh, harder. But I also wonder if there's something. I've seen so many takes about the religion in the book. And it not being realistic or research enough.
- [18:45]
B
Specific. Yeah, she doesn't define what religious background this person comes. Whether she's Mormon or evangelical or any other kind of, like, hardline religious group. Like, she's just kind of vaguely brought up in a religious household. But with no specificity. And, to be honest, I mean, I'm not religious. I understand the criticism of it. Especially if it's coming from people who feel misrepresented, who are from a religious background. But it didn't bother me. Like, I was not. Like, tell me more about the specifics of her religion. Like, it felt fleshed out enough that I understood the character.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah, I have seen some takes from people who are religious that were offended by it. And I just wonder if that sort of grew, again, beyond itself. Like, it started in this very specific group of people. And then that fed into more. But I also wonder if it's just the simple matter of, like, when there's a book that everyone has a take on. You want to have a take on it, too. Whereas, like, I don't think it will be very well received if I went on social media and I was like, let me tell you why I hate the Correspondent. Which I didn't. But I've never seen a single negative review of that book, I don't think. Which I find it hard to believe that no one out there was like, oh, this didn't really work for me yet. That's not acceptable or expected. So people don't post it, but they post this because now it's not only expected, it's totally normalized to shit.
- [20:13]
B
It's a little trendy. Yeah, I really wonder. So my guess is that her publisher is thrilled with the book's performance. No matter how much they paid, it's doing gangbuster sales. So no matter how controversial it is, her publisher is thrilled with how this book is doing. And I don't know this, but I would assume they're just telling her to just, like, sit down, shut up, count your dollars. She is very outspoken, I gather. I've only listened to a couple of episodes of her podcast, but I do wonder if some point she will speak. Speak on the experience, on how she perceives this having happened. I would really love to read, like, an analytical take on how this spiraled into being so negatively perceived in some circles. And I would also love to know about how it's affected her mental health, how she feels about it as its author.
- [21:09]
A
I would love to know as well, because there's part of me that's like, just as I talked about when I first talked about yesteryear here. And I was like, oh, it's really messing with me because I wish I, you know, had so many of these things. Very human reactions, I think, in this business. But again, like, I. I just would imagine if. If you're on, you know, I think she was on the Tonight show or something, talking about it, like, does it touch you or. Or are you, like, I'm above it because I have everything I can. My publisher is thrilled. I don't know.
- [21:34]
B
It's so human for it to touch you. And especially not having had this experience so far. Like, I know that she's on TikTok and has courted some controversy there, but. But it's funny, I was listening to Lena Dunham on Amy Poehler's podcast last night, who has also been the recipient of a lot of criticism, and they were talking about how now she has this feeling of it's not her business what people say about her online, But I think that's something you have to develop by taking it all on a little too much.
- [22:04]
A
And I think you can tune out a lot. But when it is at the level it's at with yesteryear, I wonder if you still can, like, what slips through the cracks. And. And okay, this is kind of a sub point, but I read this note on Substack and I wanted to get your take on it. So this is from Abigail Monte, who is a publicist at Penguin Random House.
- [22:22]
B
Oh, I've been loving her substack notes where she talks about insights of what they're talking about in house. Yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about.
- [22:28]
A
So you might have seen this. But she said, like, here's what caught my eye in book news this week. Rage bait, lit. And I guess Harper's Bazaar shared a really compelling article about how the books taking over the Internet conversations, yesteryear fame, six Strangers are all tied to controversial takes, messy truths, and angry women, AKA the reality TV of reading.
- [22:50]
B
Huh.
- [22:51]
A
Which I can only imagine how Carol would feel about, how I would feel, how anyone would feel about referring to your work of literary fiction as the reality TV of reading. And I say that as a reality TV lover. What's your thoughts on that?
- [23:05]
B
I don't know that I would be offended by that. I don't know that she would be offended by that. I listened to the podcast interview that Carol Clare Burke did with Be There in Five, which I found really interesting, and there were certain moments in it that I was like, wow, you had a charmed experience. She talked about how she just kind of wrote the book in a fugue state. I think she sold it on the first draft, or at least, you know, who knows what defines the first draft? But, like, she wrote it in a
- [23:32]
A
few months and sold it for after half an hour.
- [23:34]
B
Yeah, yeah. So there were definitely some things where I was like, ooh. But, you know, she talked about how so much of this came out of her kind of like, perverse fascination with following trad wipes. And so, you know, I think that there is almost a reality TV coded element into it of, like, that's where some of the like, fascination, addiction, I can't look away factor comes in. And so, like, I don't know that that was her intent to, like, build that as a quality of her novel, but it definitely reflects the experience that she was building it from.
- [24:06]
A
Yeah, that's a good point. Would you consider it rage bait in and of itself, or do you think it has become that?
- [24:12]
B
That's a good question. I Think I do agree with it being rage bait. I think anything about Tradwives is like a rage baity topic.
- [24:21]
A
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's a fair take. I'm thinking about the response to that Hannah to the Ballerina Farm article. That sort of, I think, sent Tradwives into the current cultural conversation. But anyway, lots more to discuss and I will be interested to see the trajectory of it in the future with the movie show.
- [24:40]
B
Everything same. I mean, this book is just. Oh, my God. I wrote a newsletter last week about what will be the book of the summer. And the previous week I wrote about the top books of the year. So far this book is doing like 50,000 Goodreads ratings a week. It is doing such wild numbers and it seems to only be growing. Like, this book is a very rare publishing rocket ship. It feels like.
- [25:07]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [25:08]
B
Like, I don't even think it needs. I mean, obviously the movie will bring it to more people, but like, it's already on such a steep trajectory even before a movie, which I don't think is supposed to come out this year or next year.
- [25:20]
A
So.
- [25:21]
B
Yeah.
- [25:22]
A
And how do you follow this up?
- [25:25]
B
How do you follow this up? I wonder if she, other than with lots of money, I wonder if she has written something. I mean, I think some very common publishing advice is to write as much as you can of the next book before a book comes out, and especially with a debut. So no matter if it goes really well or if it goes really poorly, you're already working on something, you're already invested in a new world. And I wonder if she has written anything on the back burner or if she has to sit down from scratch with this in the back of her mind and be like, okay, crack my knuckles, let's go.
- [25:59]
A
I don't know. I'm not sure, but I think she has a long road of publicity ahead for this still many years.
- [26:07]
B
Yeah, it's kind of like, do you remember when a few summers ago, Lessons in Chemistry was so big and Bonnie Garmis was touring that book for at least a year?
- [26:16]
A
Well, I haven't heard anyone talk about her new book. I mean, it's not out till October, but I saw it on NetGalley and
- [26:22]
B
I was like, oh, I have an arc of sounds much quieter. It is about a man who gets a job at a poetry magazine or a poetry journal. And so I think it is maybe more intellectual and definitely a quieter novel. Like poetry as a topic, I just feel like is a little bit niche.
- [26:44]
A
Yeah. Doesn't grab you immediately Though I do love poetry.
- [26:48]
B
But I'm excited to read it, though.
- [26:50]
A
Yeah. I might request it.
- [26:52]
B
Okay.
- [26:52]
A
I have my eye on it. Okay, well, what's your first thing or your second or.
- [26:57]
B
No, I brought an extra thing. I brought an extra shared thing for us. Should we do our other shared thing now, right at the top?
- [27:03]
A
Sure. What's the other shared thing?
- [27:05]
B
Okay, so our other shared thing is voting for our listener pick book club.
- [27:10]
A
Ah, okay. Yes.
- [27:12]
B
Okay. So historically, July is always our listener pick Book club Book club month. So you the listeners get to pick. Last year, it was Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid. In 2024, it was Margot's got Money Troubles by rufi Thorpe. In 2023, it was same Time Next Summer by Annabel Monahan. In 2022, it was lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Garmus. I only went back until when you were host. I don't know what it was before that, but we're so excited for you to pick our book. So here's how it works. We do voting in the Facebook group. Sorry, we can't do it in the Geneva group because their poll functionality isn't sophisticated enough to do that. So it's in the Facebook group. Today, the day this episode comes out, June 3rd, we will post the poll in the Facebook group and we will leave voting up for a week. So you can vote. If you're listening to this anytime honor before June 10th, you can vote. It's gonna be tricky because Olivia and I are going on back to back vacation. So I'll start it and you'll end it. It's one of those polls where you can write in your own answer so you can vote for something that somebody else already put in. Or if you have a. A personal pet book that you would like to see us talk about, you can put it in and leave a comment telling people why you think it should be the. The book for July.
- [28:35]
A
I can't wait to see where we end up.
- [28:36]
B
This is always so fun.
- [28:38]
A
It is like. I think we've been surprised before.
- [28:41]
B
Last year I thought for sure I won't say what I think it's gonna be this year. I have a very strong feeling. But last year I had a very strong feeling. I thought it was gonna be Great Big Beautiful Life by Emily Henry, which was kind of like a controversially received book for her. And it wasn't. It was atmosphere.
- [28:56]
A
Yeah, it was indeed. We'll see what it is this year.
- [28:59]
B
We will. And if you're not on Facebook, we will announce it in the episode. June 17th and remind you in the book club episode for June's book club pick. I feel like I'm making this unnecessarily confusing. I'm trying to be very clear, and I'm like, I'm making it worse.
- [29:14]
A
It will be clear when you see the poll. Just submit your answer. You've all done this before, and if you're new here, just. Well, Becca explained it well. We are making this really over.
- [29:24]
B
Yeah, it is. It is really.
- [29:26]
A
Send a note via carrier pigeon with your choice of book written in code, and it will arrive at my home, and then I will send it on to Becca with another carrier. Yeah, no, it's really. It's just a poll on Facebook.
- [29:38]
B
It's just a Facebook poll. Just about.
- [29:40]
A
It's in, guys.
- [29:41]
B
And, you know, you don't even need to wait for us to announce it because the winner will be clear. It will be.
- [29:46]
A
Yeah.
- [29:46]
B
There's no machinations. This isn't the New York Times bestseller list.
- [29:49]
A
Like, no.
- [29:51]
B
Unless the winner is, like, something that isn't out yet or something we've already discussed. Meaning, like it's worried about a book club pick. You wouldn't do that.
- [29:58]
A
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [30:01]
B
Okay. Take me to your next thing. Get me out of this thing that I brought.
- [30:04]
A
Well, I've only brought book things. So my next thing is both a book thing and it is sort of dovetailing off of yesteryear. And with the popularity of this book, there has been, and I would kind of argue, strangers in a way. Even though it's a memoir, there's been a lot of talk about the idea of a high concept novel, which, for those that don't know, that is essentially when you can pitch your book in one sentence, which. That's it, more or less. Is there another way you would describe it, Becca?
- [30:34]
B
I think there are a lot of books you can pitch in one sentence, but it's a book that you can pitch in one sentence that's like really big or exciting. Like, it's like a tradwife influencer wakes up in 1855. Like, that's buzzing. Not like a man. I. I can't think of it, but it's like counterpoint.
- [30:51]
A
Make every woman fall in love. Yes, yes. It's a one sentence pitch that has a hook that. I think I read this somewhere. You can instantly see the story going forward. Like, you can instantly see what it would look like on screen. You can see it. Okay. Then this happens. And this could happen. It's like instantaneous. And a lot of people say that that is part of the reason that yesteryear had such an unbelievable response immediately. Like I said, I think half an hour after it sent out, there was an offer on the pitch alone. Although of course you have to have writing to back it up. But have you been thinking more about this? Because I have to admit, as I start to sort of think about future books and also pitching little one, pitching my next book, I've really been worried about this in a way that I haven't been in the past or concerned about it or it just feels more necessary. And I don't know if that's just me or what do you think I've not been.
- [31:51]
B
I think there are fewer books in the romance genre that are high concept generally. Or maybe, maybe they are high concept, but, like, they're. It's not the same way that yesteryear is like Carly Fortune's book this year. Our perfect storm is a jilted bride goes on her would be honeymoon with her male best friend, which is, you know, very pitchable. You can kind of. You can see it in your head. But it's just. It is high concept, but it's not like Project Hail Mary where it's like middle school science teacher wakes up on a spaceship tasked with saving Earth from a devastating bacteria plague.
- [32:27]
A
Yeah. We've talked about how it seems like people are looking for, like, fresher. Like, I've never seen that before. Versions of romance. Do you feel like there's more pressure to come up with, like, a version of it that still fits within the genre but is totally different? I guess not. If you're saying that you haven't been thinking about it.
- [32:44]
B
Well, also, I don't know that my third book, as I conceive of it, I don't think is a romance.
- [32:49]
A
Well, that's part of why I asked you this question.
- [32:52]
B
It's a family dramedy with a romance subplot. I also think my third book, which I'm just gonna. This is so infuriating because I'm not gonna tell you the premise because it's too early and like, I don't know, I'm like, a little superstitious. I haven't sold it. And I don't know, also, like, what if somebody steals it? Which it would probably be executed totally differently. But, like, the gremlin in my brain won't let me tell you it's fair.
- [33:16]
A
It's. It's, you know, it's early days.
- [33:18]
B
But I do think my third book is my most high concept premise. Not by design. It Just happens to be okay.
- [33:24]
A
So maybe you're not thinking about it as much because you feel like it is already.
- [33:29]
B
Maybe, maybe.
- [33:30]
A
Or you're just not worried about it.
- [33:31]
B
I'm not worried about it.
- [33:32]
A
Not worthy.
- [33:32]
B
I'm not worried about it. And I mean, also look at a book like the Correspondent, which was last year's book of the year, which is the least high concept book, right? Not ever, but possibly ever. Of like an old woman writes letters to people.
- [33:48]
A
It's true. It's true.
- [33:49]
B
So I don't think it's a. And you know, I think the other thing we're ignoring here, or not saying the quiet part out loud, is that in both cases they had massive publisher support. Like they were designed to be successes from day one. Not that that always makes it successful. There are plenty of books that are set up to be successes and kind of fizzle that have huge acquisitions. So not to say that it's a hundred percent track record, but I don't know. Tell me more about how you're feeling. Tell me how you feel about the high concept premiseness of book three.
- [34:24]
A
I don't know. I don't know if it's high concept. I don't know if a woman returns to her crumbling beach house is. It's really reinventing the wheel. But as I look beyond it, I think I have this goal of writing something. And I have an idea, but I have this goal of writing something that just is like, you can say it one sentence and you know, as like a challenge or maybe just like a structure in which to brainstorm instead of like, you could write anything in the world, Olivia. It's a little intimidating.
- [34:53]
B
Well, I mean, I think if you can find the Venn diagram center section of what you want to write, but also high concept, like that's the winning lotto ticket, you know, on a fulfillment basis, but also on like a giving it the best chance of commercial success basis.
- [35:11]
A
So, like, I guess I wonder what the yesteryear effect will be on publishing. And if I had to guess, it's that. And like, when I see big deals happening right now, it's like, usually something that is highly pitchable in one sentence, you can see it playing out on a screen, but I don't know if I'm tuned into that more, you know, I probably am.
- [35:32]
B
Do you think that another aspect of it is something that taps into our pop culture zeitgeist? Because we're talking about yesteryear, which is about trad wives. And then I think the other book that you're you're talking about is Home Economics by Katie Hayes, which just had a huge announcement that Julia Roberts is going to adapt and star in the movie or TV show based on it. And it's basically about a Martha Stewart esque character who decides to squat in the Hudson Valley home that she once owned. And it gets like livestreamed by a Gen Z filmmaker. And like that has a very obvious pop culture tie in of like the Martha Stewart of it all.
- [36:14]
A
Yes, very true. It's also pitched as hacks meets Lessons in Chemistry. That's a great, that's a great comp pairing, but like deal wise, very similar to yesteryear in terms of huge auction, huge deal, major movie star art already attached to it, you know, screen version already confirmed. So I'm like, huh, interesting. You just think about these things, I guess, when you're in it. I kind of wish I didn't. I need to like just bury my phone in the sand probably and just write. I almost think about it as like a, like I said, as a challenge. Like I kind of want to just sit myself in a room one day and be like, just come up with 10 high concept pitches. Just. I've never done that. You know, usually I have like a little bit of an idea and then I kind of attach it to another idea and then it builds and it grows. But I've never just been like, let me sit down and think of a pitch from nothing.
- [37:05]
B
I know. I haven't either. Like, the way I approach ideas is the one that I can't ignore. And it has like made itself clear to me by the time I am about to write something. So I already have what I think I want my fourth book to be. So I'm never sitting down from a place of like blue skies. Let me come up with something. It gets just the annoying one that won't stop knocking. And I'm like, oh, this feels like the one I need to write. But maybe that's not the best way to do it.
- [37:38]
A
Yeah. Or maybe it's not the only way to do it.
- [37:41]
B
Totally.
- [37:41]
A
So I guess I'm just thinking of it as more of a creative challenge going forward with books. And if that's what the market calls for, then I'm gonna try to write something I love that is appealing to that side of things. Yeah, but if you can't, you can't. And that doesn't mean, like you said, that the book can't still be wonderful and popular. So it's just interesting. But we'll see if it Keeps happening.
- [38:02]
B
Okay, let's take another ad break and get to some more things.
- [38:11]
A
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- [38:40]
B
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- [39:14]
A
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- [39:52]
B
So you said all of your things are bookish things and I don't have any more bookish things, so I have non book things. So my next thing is Polar Seltzer. My platonic ideal seltzer.
- [40:04]
A
Right.
- [40:05]
B
Had a visual rebrand.
- [40:06]
A
Oh, did they?
- [40:07]
B
Yes. It hasn't rolled out to all stores. My grocery stores here still have the same can, so it seems like it's rolling out. But if you look on their website, the cans now, they used to just be silver and have like the little fruit on it, but now they have like much bigger graphic fruit on it. Are you seeing what I'm talking about?
- [40:25]
A
Yeah. I feel nothing for either design.
- [40:28]
B
I feel upset about this because something about Polar. Yeah, I want Polar to be a little janky. I don't know if it's still family owned, but like, it feels like a janky New England brand. And I want the branding to Reflect that. And I'm curious if you have other brands that you want to stay janky or you would be upset if they rebranded some aspect of.
- [40:52]
A
Oh, this is a great question.
- [40:54]
B
I have two others that I have no attachment to and I don't know why I feel this way, but I would be upset if they changed.
- [41:03]
A
Okay, you tell me.
- [41:04]
B
Okay. My next one would be if Yankee Candle ever changed their containers.
- [41:10]
A
Mm. Yeah, that would be odd.
- [41:11]
B
Uncomfortable for those glass vessels. They've definitely slightly updated their visual branding on the sticker labels, which is fine. It still feels in the same family. It hasn't gotten too fancy. But if they changed those glass jars, I'd be upset.
- [41:25]
A
Yeah, I understand. That would be really unsettling.
- [41:28]
B
And the other one, which I don't use but would be upset about is if Dr. Bronner's took that incredibly text heavy label off of their products.
- [41:38]
A
Yeah, it just. It belongs. It really does. Yeah. This makes me think of the Spotify rebrand, by the way.
- [41:44]
B
It does.
- [41:44]
A
It makes sense how everyone lost their mind.
- [41:46]
B
Disco ball logo. And I don't know that I care about that, except that I do agree it does look like it's still loading because of the outline of the disco ball, but.
- [41:56]
A
True.
- [41:58]
B
I don't have any affinity where I'm like, Spotify's logo has to stay the same or I. I'll riot.
- [42:03]
A
Yeah, I'm with you. I do not care at all. What I care about. I have to tell you, if Costco changed any part of it, I want to stand at the concession stand at Costco and feel like I am at a fair in 1972. I don't need a digital board. I think they actually do have a digital board, so I take that back. I don't need a cursive font. I just. I don't need anything but the $2 hot dog. I don't know why I said hot dog. So weird. The $2 hot dog. And that's it. Slice of pizza.
- [42:38]
B
There's something pleasantly reassuring about their logo too. Like, it does feel like it's for a computer brand from the 90s.
- [42:45]
A
100%.
- [42:46]
B
And I would be. Yeah, I would be upset if they changed their logo and their buildings, like, all of a sudden had a different logo on them.
- [42:54]
A
Yeah. Like if they actually tried to make the store comfortable at all, I would be unsatisfied. Like, it would not be right. If I ever wanted to linger longer than I am need to be there, I would feel like, no, I. This needs to feel industrial at all. Times I need to feel like I just exited a shipping container or I'm actually in one at times. I don't need anything more. Hear me out. Costco officials don't improve. Stay exactly as you are. Thank you.
- [43:22]
B
What other brands would you be upset if they changed in some way?
- [43:26]
A
I think McDonald's. That would rock me to my core. If, like, they were, like, the golden arches are done.
- [43:33]
B
Oh, yeah, I would.
- [43:34]
A
That's probably the most actually deeply American thing about me. Like, I really have no. Like, if they changed the American flag, I'd be like, it's fine. We could use a rebrand in many ways. But the golden arches of McDonald's, I think it would feel weird. It would feel odd.
- [43:47]
B
But I feel like that is slightly different to me. Where that feels iconic and nostalgic in a way that Costco and Polar feels slightly janky, where it, like, could actually arguably use an upgrade, but I don't want it to happen.
- [44:03]
A
Uh, yeah. I'm trying to think if there are others. I don't know. Th. Those are the only ones that speak to me.
- [44:09]
B
I think I'm excited.
- [44:10]
A
This is a great question.
- [44:11]
B
I'm excited to see, hopefully, if the Facebook and BFF Group have responses to this too, because I felt a big type of way when I saw that Polar rebrand.
- [44:22]
A
I have to say, the new one looks kind of like hard seltzer. Strangely, to me, it looks like it's
- [44:28]
B
trying to be, like, young and fun, and I'm guessing they're trying to compete with, like, Olipop or poppy.
- [44:34]
A
Good luck.
- [44:35]
B
Yeah. And I'm like, no, I want it to be the seltzer brand that was in your grandmother's fridge.
- [44:42]
A
Just across the board. They changed from a serif to a sans serif font. I think that is always a mistake, but, you know, I'm no expert.
- [44:53]
B
Well, unfortunately, they will never see any complaints I make, because my DM history with Polar is just, like, completely a column from my side and nothing from theirs.
- [45:04]
A
They have you on a watch list, probably.
- [45:06]
B
They're like, we're concerned about this woman.
- [45:08]
A
I'm sure I. Well, look, they have other things to worry about, clearly, with their giant fruits.
- [45:13]
B
Yeah. And I also think that specifically the orange vanilla, which is my favorite flavor, does not represent orange vanilla. It looks like it is grapefruit or peach. It does not telegraph orange vanilla.
- [45:26]
A
I mean, you're the expert on the orange vanilla. So if they're not going to listen to you, I don't like it needs
- [45:30]
B
to have a vanilla bean in There
- [45:33]
A
a vanilla bean on a can that feels.
- [45:35]
B
Well, they've only telegraphed the orange part. And I'm like, no, it's orange. Vanilla. You already have a clementine flavor.
- [45:41]
A
This is hard to illustrate a vanilla bean on a camp.
- [45:44]
B
I agree.
- [45:45]
A
But I liked how they looked like a regular bean. You know the bean Orange seltzer?
- [45:50]
B
No, the pod. Like the long, skinny pod. That's what it used to be. There used to be, like, an orange, and then next to it was kind of like diagonally, like the vanilla pod.
- [45:58]
A
And now just an orange.
- [46:00]
B
Now just orange. Where it's like, this isn't. You have a clementine flavor. Like, this isn't your only orange.
- [46:07]
A
Right, Right. It's a mistake. I think you're right.
- [46:10]
B
I agree. Am I gonna vote with my wallet and not buy it? No, I'm gonna keep buying it.
- [46:15]
A
I think Hannaford. The Hannaford branded seltzers, they're not bad, but I'm not. I'm not like you. I'm not as picky or as. Devoted. It's probably a better word.
- [46:26]
B
Or as deranged might be the word you're looking for.
- [46:29]
A
I didn't. I think devoted, you know?
- [46:31]
B
Yeah. Okay, tell me your. Are we down to your final thing?
- [46:36]
A
Yeah, my final thing. It's a quick one.
- [46:38]
B
Okay.
- [46:39]
A
I was wondering if you have any favorite first lines of books. Oh. Or ones that you remember or ones that you go back to when you're thinking about, like, your first line when you're writing.
- [46:51]
B
The first one that comes to mind that I can recite, probably not verbatim, but maybe close to verbatim, off the top of my head is from Heart the Lover by Lily King, which is only a year old, so it's not that old, but it says something like. You always said I'd write a book about you.
- [47:09]
A
Yes, yes, yes, yes. We've talked about that.
- [47:12]
B
Which I love. I love the instant intrigue of who. Who is the other person.
- [47:17]
A
Do you prefer a shorter first sentence or longer? Or do you not have a preference?
- [47:21]
B
I don't think I have a preference. It's like. It's almost like how that Supreme Court gets porn, where it's like, I'll know it when I see it. But I think that there's definitely, like, very short ones that I liked and long ones that I liked. And I don't think it's. I think it's hard for me to boil it down to, like, this is my formula either as a writer or a reader.
- [47:41]
A
Hmm. Okay.
- [47:42]
B
I do really like the way that Emily Henry writes prologues for the most part. And maybe this is specific to her earlier books. So specifically on beach read, people we meet on vacation and book lovers, I know that they all have this kind of prologue that is a little bit setting y and then takes kind of like a broad premise and zooms in. So for people we meet on vacation, it's about, like, part of the reason you love going on vacation is that you can be anyone. Like, you can have curly hair on vacation. You could be the type of person who has this type of drink. And then, like, it zooms down and down and down into the characters. And I really like that. Where with book lovers, it's about romance tropes and, you know, the tropes that govern our lives. And then it. It basically, like, surprises you and is like, I'm the woman who gets dumped in the Hallmark movie. I'm like the city woman who's, like, yelling from her peloton. So I really like the way that she constructs a prologue overall, but I don't know that that's specific to the first sentence.
- [48:46]
A
Are you pro prologue or prologue neutral?
- [48:49]
B
I'm generally pro prologue. Both of my first two books have prologues. The first book, that was a suggestion. I did not originally have a prologue, and that was a suggestion by my agent because, first of all, chapter is when they're in college, and she said, rightfully, that it had more of a feel of ya. And so putting a prologue on when they were adults would help to frame what the reader was getting, which I agree with. Funny enough, though, it's the opposite in my second book because the prologue is when the characters are 17 and then goes forward to when they're adults. But I really like the prologue in my second book. My third book doesn't have one.
- [49:29]
A
Good.
- [49:29]
B
At least right now.
- [49:30]
A
Oh, okay. Well, we never know. It could show up.
- [49:33]
B
Okay, you brought this question, so I have to imagine that there are either thoughts or first lines that you have strong feelings about.
- [49:43]
A
Yes, I think I tend to like shorter first lines.
- [49:45]
B
Okay.
- [49:45]
A
I brought three that stood out to me. They're not like my favorite, but. But three. The first sentence from the God of the Woods. Everyone's shocked by Liz Moore, which is the bed was empty.
- [49:55]
B
Okay.
- [49:56]
A
Which the whole story is about a girl who disappears from her.
- [49:59]
B
That doesn't give me enough not having read that book. So I can't really opine.
- [50:04]
A
Well, you have to keep going.
- [50:05]
B
Well, of course, of course, but.
- [50:08]
A
But I just thought it was so simple, obviously, but it. It Immediately evokes this feeling of like there's something missing that should not be in a very just straightforward, simple, clear way. So I love that the next one was from Seawife by Amity Gage, which is just, where does a lie begin, I think.
- [50:30]
B
Oh, I love that one.
- [50:32]
A
I think I've talked about it here.
- [50:33]
B
That's very confusing.
- [50:34]
A
Pretty sure it's what it is. Which is kind of the line that made me become obsessed with her. So love that. And then I've been sitting here with Fellowship Point at my desk by Alice Elliot Dark, which I just talked about on our Hidden Gems episode. And I opened it again because I was like, I think I want to read this again. And the first line is such a perfect day for writing gray and quiet. And I loved it.
- [50:58]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [50:58]
A
I was like, oh, love it, love it, love it. Yeah, I'm drawn to the shorter, but I don't know.
- [51:02]
B
I just pulled up as you were talking the first line of the Wedding People, which is a book I know we both really love to see if it has a compelling first line. Not at all. The first line is, apparently, is a dialogue tag, and it says, next, the front desk woman calls. Oh, does nothing for me.
- [51:19]
A
I love her so much. I didn't know what it would be. I've talked about this before. I really don't like books that start in dialogue, as my second book does. Why did I do that? I don't know. But I prefer prose. But, I mean, obviously, the Wedding People is just absolutely out of this world. So it goes to show it doesn't really matter that much. But it's just the thing I find fun to think about.
- [51:41]
B
This is really fun. I'm now going, I just did Tom Lake to see if it has a good one. It's fine. I'm now like, what books might have a great first line?
- [51:50]
A
We should do an episode where we read first lines and see if we can tell what books there are.
- [51:54]
B
Oh, that's really fun. And then we can also, like, rate if we think the first line is, like, as good as the book or not as good.
- [52:03]
A
We should do this.
- [52:03]
B
Oh, yeah, we should do this. This sounds really fun.
- [52:06]
A
I'm already ready. I'm so ready.
- [52:08]
B
You can hear me typing. I'm like, what?
- [52:10]
A
What? Should I go to the next thing?
- [52:12]
B
Okay, we're gonna do an episode about this. Cause I wanna go through a bunch of my favorite books on my favorite bookshelf and see what their first lines are.
- [52:20]
A
I also would love to talk about your first lines and how they came to be and.
- [52:24]
B
Oh, that's fun. Okay, we need to do this. When are we doing this? Like, get me.
- [52:29]
A
This was on my brainstorm list the other day, but then we were, like, settled and I was like, no, I don't know. Maybe there's not enough there for an episode. But now that. So I was like, I'll bring it to three things. But now I'm obsessed with this. I think there is.
- [52:40]
B
Okay, we'll finish the episode and then we gotta talk about what gets.
- [52:43]
A
Now I need to look at this one. Okay, I just picked one up right now. And the first line is excellent. It's a very me line. It's before I forget, by Tori Henwood Hone, who wrote the book youk Love the Ark.
- [52:55]
B
Yes.
- [52:55]
A
And she sent me a copy of her newest book. And the first line is, I am stuck between selves.
- [53:01]
B
Oh, that's a good first line. That's a very good first line.
- [53:04]
A
Very, very good. Very good. This just seems high on my list.
- [53:09]
B
We gotta do a first line episode. I am hyped.
- [53:12]
A
Me too. I'm so excited.
- [53:14]
B
Okay. I feel like we should have ended on that because now mine is gonna be kind of a letdown. That was so. That was a. That was a rush of a thing.
- [53:22]
A
I didn't know it would be. It's so exciting. You.
- [53:24]
B
You nailed it. My last thing is I'd like to talk about sheets. So you're, like, already disappointing. So the reason I.
- [53:32]
A
No, it's just the transition. I feel like whiplash.
- [53:35]
B
Okay.
- [53:35]
A
Yes, Sheets.
- [53:36]
B
The reason I'd like to talk about sheets is I'm in the market for new sheets because I painted my bedroom that kind of like terracotta y, rosy pink color. And historically, I've owned a lot of blue sheets, which now no longer work. I just don't feel like it. Yeah, matches. So I'm still using them and I'm like, oh, I'm like, in the market for. I. I have a set of, like, off white sheets, but I'm like, we need some new sheets. And I wanted to know if you have favorite brands, if you have thoughts on, like, do you only do white sheets? How you feel about pattern sheets? And then also, did you see this viral. I saw it on reels, but I think it's also on TikTok, this, like, viral betting guy that happened this week.
- [54:20]
A
Oh, my God. Yes, I saw him.
- [54:22]
B
Okay, we gotta talk about that too. Where do you want to start? Okay, tell me first, like, what is your personal rules on sheets, if any?
- [54:29]
A
Yeah, So I have, by and large almost only had white sheets.
- [54:34]
B
Okay.
- [54:35]
A
I think they're classic for a reason. Yeah. I like the idea of doing a fun fitted sheet that matches the comforter. For example, like piglet in bed has very cute pattern sheets, which I love. I have a comforter from them. However, I cannot justify doing that because it just feels like a waste of money. Because when I change something about the room and like, per what happened to you? And then they don't work. I do not want to buy new sheets. I don't.
- [55:05]
B
Okay.
- [55:06]
A
So I am white sheets only.
- [55:08]
B
Okay. Do you have a particular brand that you gravitate towards?
- [55:12]
A
So I have three different brands in my house. They're all slightly different. I can recommend them all, but I'll tell you my thoughts. First brand, I have Cozy Earth sheets. They are great. They're more of like. They're almost like a silky sort of cooling material.
- [55:27]
B
Okay. So those are my favorite sheets. But they're not as slick as a lot of people really like the lands and sheets. But those are sateen and I hate anything that gets like too far towards sateen.
- [55:39]
A
It's like an ink for me. I don't like that Cozy Earth are not that they are like the same cooling.
- [55:46]
B
Interestingly. I feel like when they come out of the package, they feel like that. But then after you wash them the first time, they're not. Because when I first got them, I was like, oh, I'm not going to like these. This is like an ick for me. And then when I washed them, they were. They're now my favorites.
- [56:00]
A
They get better and better. Yeah, I would say so. We have bolem branch sheets, which I. I really love.
- [56:06]
B
Are they like a perta?
- [56:08]
A
I think they're just. Is that cotton? They're just cotton. They're just like their standard whatever. They're most ordered.
- [56:13]
B
Yep.
- [56:14]
A
And then I got these recently for our guest room. Huge winner. Basically the nicest sheets they sell at Costco, like the highest thread count sheets they sell at Costco are excellent. They feel like luxury hotel quality has
- [56:28]
B
not been on my radar.
- [56:29]
A
Listen, it's the inside of a shipping container. But they have good stuff there.
- [56:33]
B
They do.
- [56:34]
A
All of those are a bit different depending on what you're looking for. But those are my go tos.
- [56:38]
B
Okay. So Cozy Earth is my go to. I really love their sheets. This is not an ad like I genuinely do. But they have pretty limited colors. So I have white ones, like an off white.
- [56:50]
A
Actually.
- [56:50]
B
I think I want a pattern is what I want.
- [56:53]
A
Oh, okay. Okay. Would you do a linen.
- [56:56]
B
I've never done linen sheets, so I don't know. And that. And they're expensive. And I'm like, oh. Like, I know that I like, like, a cotton or modal type sheet. I know I hate a sateen sheet. Like, what if I buy linen sheets? Then I hate them. That feels like a waste of money.
- [57:10]
A
We have the linen duvet cover and linen pillowcases for the front pillows, for the, like, bigger pillows. And I have to say, I really, really like it for that. But I have to have cotton.
- [57:20]
B
I think that they might be slightly too scratchy for me. I like. I value softness.
- [57:26]
A
I'm with you.
- [57:27]
B
I was looking at the only color that feels in my realm for cozy earth is they have, like, a light baby pink sheet. So I was like, okay, maybe those. And then I was looking on Anthropologie, and they have some cute ones, but, like, none of them are quite right for what I'm looking for. Cause I also. A lot of the pattern sheets lean very. Like, country cottage very quickly.
- [57:49]
A
Yes.
- [57:50]
B
Which is not quite my aesthetic. And then there's. There's some really beautiful pattern sheets on Biscuit Home.
- [57:58]
A
I've never heard of that.
- [57:59]
B
It's a brand out of Texas. They are so expensive.
- [58:03]
A
Yeah. Once you get really deep in the sort of linens of it all, like, the fabrics world, it. It gets wild very quickly.
- [58:13]
B
I. I'm also curious about quints, actually, because I have a quint coverlet, and then I have a quince duvet cover, and those are not the same fabric that I would get for sheets. They're like a muslin kind of. They're like a baby swaddle fabric, which I love. Very soft. But I'm curious how their sheets might be, but I don't. I think, again, I'm going to run into the same issue with colors that, like, it's all too neutral. Oh. So what I did buy and is getting returned is there's these Amazon sheets that I have historically really liked. They're definitely, like, less quality. Like, they're more see through. They're like, I prefer the cozy earth ones, but, like, for the price, they're really good. And so I got a pair that was like, kind of a coral, and I was like, maybe I'll do a tonal. Like, the wall and the sheets are the same tone. Olivia. These things are, like orange creamsicle, Popsicle. Like, they are so ugly.
- [59:04]
A
Oh, no.
- [59:04]
B
They came and I was like, this is. That was my fear. And I was like, this is the worst version of this color.
- [59:10]
A
That's a disappointment.
- [59:11]
B
It is. Okay, wait, so you saw the viral betting guy? At first I thought that I was just getting this because all last weekend I was searching sheets, so I was like, oh, I'm just getting targeted with this. But then I've seen it mentioned.
- [59:22]
A
He was everywhere, man.
- [59:22]
B
Two other places. And I'm like, oh, it's not just me, but he's like, this kind of, like, stern, bitchy, I assume gay man who has very strong feelings on how to make a bed. And what I took from this was that I'm not rolling back by duvet far enough.
- [59:40]
A
Hmm. Yeah, I. I always roll it back. It's kind of weird to me that there is anyone that doesn't. I didn't even know that was.
- [59:47]
B
Well, no, no, no. He was saying, you have to roll it back further than you think.
- [59:51]
A
Yeah, I don't want to do that.
- [59:52]
B
Oh, okay. I do.
- [59:53]
A
How far did he roll it back? Remind me.
- [59:55]
B
Like, almost, like, halfway.
- [59:57]
A
Oh, yeah. No. Well, how big is the duvet cover? My duvet cover can't do that. Or it won't cover the end of the bit?
- [60:03]
B
Well, no, you're folding it back.
- [60:04]
A
Oh, so then the sheet's exposed. Exactly. That's what he said. He was like, so then the sheet can breathe.
- [60:09]
B
And that way I would have a contrasting. You know, my duvet right now is white, but then I would have, like, a colored sheet so you would get more of the sheet.
- [60:18]
A
That's nice. I will be totally honest and say that I have a top sheet and I always make the bed. I don't always fix the top sheet. So the folding of it towards the top of the bed allows me to then cover the top sheet, which is not folded. Which then Jake gets in bed, and he's like, why is this sheet completely crumpled up in a corner? And I'm like, listen, you get what you get. Do you do a top sheet right now?
- [60:40]
B
No, I actually prefer no top sheet, but I do a coverlet. So like a thin blanket.
- [60:46]
A
Okay, so do. Do you not use the comforter sometimes? Okay, interesting.
- [60:51]
B
So I have, like, the comforter with a duvet cover on it, and then I have this, like. I don't know if coverlet is even the right word for it. It's like a thin blanket. So thicker than a sheet, way thinner than a duvet. And usually what happens is I start the night with the comforter on, but then at some point, I kick part of it off because I need to have something Covering me. That's heavier than a sheet.
- [61:17]
A
Yep.
- [61:17]
B
So that's kind of like where I've landed.
- [61:19]
A
Okay, well, I see what you mean about if you folded it back and then the bed was more exposed and the sheets and. Yeah, I could. I could see that it was the pillows situation that more kind of threw me. I was like. That was when I kind of checked out of the video and I was like, I don't have time for this situation.
- [61:35]
B
This is taking a lot of mental capacity for me right now thinking about betting. I'll be honest with you. Like, too much, frankly. And I'm really in decision paralysis mode over it.
- [61:45]
A
This is why I just do white. Just all white, I take it.
- [61:49]
B
I mean, but in my head, white is not the answer. So I'm like, I have white sheets.
- [61:53]
A
You're on the journey.
- [61:53]
B
That's what's on my bed right now. So there's like white sheets on the bed right now. It's fine. But I'm like, no, we need something more interesting than this.
- [62:01]
A
Yeah. Well, Godspeed to you.
- [62:03]
B
Thank you. If listeners, having heard way too much about my sheet preferences, if you have suggestions based on this of where I should look, I'm very much all yours.
- [62:13]
A
Well, let's take one more ad break and then we'll get into some n matter. This episode is sponsored by masterclass. I have to be honest and say that lately I am feeling such little desire to be on social media. Every time I scroll, I leave feeling depleted. And what I want to feel, especially when it comes to my career but in all aspects of my life, is inspired. And as you guys know, I cannot get enough about creativity and creative inspiration. I recently watched poet Joy Harjo's masterclass, Lessons on Poetry and Sparking Creativity through Poetry. And I cannot tell you how much I loved it.
- [62:54]
B
On the flip side, if you're shopping for a Father's Day gift this year, consider masterclass as an option for that father figure in your life who has everything. This is a gift that can be used on the go, Takes up zero room on a shelf, and contains virtually endless knowledge and inspiration on dozens of topics. Pitching stories for film and TV with Judd Apatow. I've watched part of this. He is a great one. Developing a better athletic mindset with Wayne Gretzky. There's something for every type of dad and every person.
- [63:25]
A
The next masterclass on my list is Lessons on Wilderness Survival skills with Jesse Krebs. That might surprise you, but it's for research.
- [63:34]
B
Okay. Oh, I was gonna say, is it like, so that you can worry more about Jake.
- [63:38]
A
Also probably good. And I had no idea that Masterclass had this sort of thing until recently. But like I said, it's gonna be very helpful for me for some potential book research. So there's also the fact that Masterclass keeps adding even more new classes, so there has never been a better time to get in. Right now, as a listener of this show, you can get at least 15% off any annual membership@masterclass.com BOP. That's 15% off@masterclass.com BOP. Head to masterclass.com BOP to see the latest offer.
- [64:17]
B
All right, what are you obsessed with?
- [64:19]
A
I went to Trader Joe's this week for the first time in probably five years, and I can't say that I really missed it. I used to go maybe once a month when we lived in Philly. But I have to tell you, I think Trader Joe's has gotten better because I went hungry, which is a mistake. I knew what I was doing. It was wrong. I was starving. We had to get a bunch of sort of easy meals, pre made meals, salads, wraps, that kind of thing, which Trader Joe's is great for because we have a very limited kitchen, if any kitchen right now. But then of course, I was like, let me try this snack and this snack. And every single thing I got was so wildly good, wildly good. They have this peanut butter protein granola. Incredible. They have. I haven't ever tried the Scandinavian swimmers, the sour ones, the perfect texture of gummy. And I've tried a lot of gummies. I just. I'm not saying anything interesting here, but I'm glad that it's back in my life and a little afraid for how much money I'm going to spend there.
- [65:17]
B
I'm happy for you. I also commented when you told me this before we started recording that you went much healthier than I would have if I did not have a kitchen and was, like, relying on Trader Joe's. I would be like pigs in a blanket. I was telling you about the buffalo chicken wontons that are basically like the Buffalo blasts from Cheesecake Factory that got discontinued because the sodium content was too high. Like the ice cream cones. Like, I would be. I would be all about the freezer food.
- [65:43]
A
My plan is to go there every week as we do this renovation just to make our lives easy. Because as pre made easy to make food goes, there's nothing more affordable, I think, than Trader Joe's for, like, taste. And I think by like month two or three of the renovation, I'LL probably just be eating.
- [65:59]
B
You'll be an aficionado.
- [66:01]
A
The mini ice cream cones and that is it.
- [66:04]
B
Do you know it's a weird thing that's not helpful for your renovation that I think Trader Joe's does exceptionally well. Their pre mixed taco seasoning.
- [66:12]
A
That's good to know because I really don't like the one I usually get at the store.
- [66:15]
B
I really like theirs both flavor and spice wise.
- [66:18]
A
I'll add it to the list. Okay. Well, what are you obsessed with?
- [66:22]
B
So this is kind of a follow on obsession to. I talked about this two weeks ago. I was watching Off Campus on Amazon prime, which is the new college hockey show and I liked it. I stayed up until 2 in the morning watching it the first time I turned it on. But I think when I first started watching it I was comparing it a lot in my head to Heated Rivalry, which is a mistake. You need to treat it as its own entity. And first of all, there's this episode where it's about two characters other than the main couple. It's the Ally and Dean episode that oh my God, I loved so much. And so once I got to that, I was like a whole new level of obsessed. Then I finished it and then this weekend I started watching it again. So I am on an obsession level with this show. Also, I'm getting all the content in my reels feed of cast interviews and like all the press they're doing.
- [67:13]
A
I am too.
- [67:13]
B
I'm so obsessed with this.
- [67:16]
A
You're not alone.
- [67:17]
B
It's a hit and I just, I really need us to continue to create a blockbuster book to TV adaptation, romance adaptation that I can get obsessed with every six months. Like I, I need this pipeline to continue.
- [67:32]
A
I think it will for my mental popularity. I think it really will.
- [67:35]
B
Well, at least now we have these two and they'll be on seasonal models. So I think I saw that Heated Rivalry starts filming in July and so hopefully that'll be back next spring and then this one. I don't know how quick they can. I think they're already filming now, so maybe they can get a season, a second season, even sooner.
- [67:53]
A
Well, that's. I'm excited for you.
- [67:55]
B
Oh, I'm excited for me. I'm excited for me. I'm excited for Ally and Dean's season. I have historically.
- [68:01]
A
Me too.
- [68:02]
B
I've taken some heat for saying that I don't like a blonde man and Dean is challenging that preconceived notion.
- [68:09]
A
That's wonderful. I'm happy for you.
- [68:10]
B
Thank you. I'M broadening my horizons.
- [68:12]
A
Diversity, most important.
- [68:14]
B
Yeah, Lust diversity.
- [68:16]
A
Well, what have you read? I did not finish anything this week.
- [68:20]
B
Okay, so I read Sandwich by Kathryn Newman a few years late to the party. I've had this, an arc of this on my Kindle for years. And okay, I think I was a little resistant because We All Want Impossible Things was both such a wonderful book. I loved it so much and it was so gut wrenching and I was just afraid of my heart breaking that hard again. And then I'd said last year at some point I'd put it on like a vacation tbr of something I was gonna bring on vacation. And some commenter was like, oh, it's not a good vacation read. It's like too serious. Which I think I disagree with. I understand what they were saying, but I think I disagree with. So then I was like, oh, it's serious. I don't know when is the right time for me to read this book. But anyway, I decided it was a super rainy Memorial Day weekend, so I read it last weekend. I loved this. This is about a woman who goes on vacation to Cape Cod with her family. Her husband, her two adult children, her son's girlfriend, and then her aging parents come for a couple days. And the title is derived from kind of sandwich caregiving of, you know, she's menopausal and she's taking care of her adult children and her aging parents at the same time.
- [69:37]
A
Also. Where are they vacationing?
- [69:39]
B
Oh, are they in Sandwich, Massachusetts?
- [69:41]
A
I think so.
- [69:42]
B
That was not clear to me.
- [69:44]
A
Maybe I'm wrong.
- [69:44]
B
I don't know that you're wrong.
- [69:46]
A
But also, there's a lot of content about sandwiches in the book.
- [69:48]
B
There is.
- [69:49]
A
I appreciate that. There's a lot of content from all angles. Yeah.
- [69:51]
B
But I kept thinking as I was reading this book, I was like, I wish all books were like this. I've listened to a lot of interviews with Kathryn Newman where she says that her books are basically autofiction. And this felt so specific. Like I felt like I was inside this writer's weird little brain and I want to be inside all writers weird little brains. I could not do the same because it's kind of miraculous that she's able to have it be so voicey and to have it be so particular to this character, but to have it have any plot that moves along.
- [70:27]
A
Yeah, it's true. It's a feat of creativity in some ways.
- [70:31]
B
And it's so short. I think it's like 200 something pages. I adored this. It made Me terrified about menopause, which it sounds like rightfully so, I should be, but. Oh, I thought this was such a delight. And she's just. I loved listening to the interview that you did with her on Little One. And like, she just seems like such good people. And like, reading this character just made me love her more because it feels like an extension of her or like a Twilight Zone version of her kind of.
- [70:58]
A
Yeah, yeah. She's so great. And now if you want, you could read Wreck.
- [71:02]
B
I know.
- [71:02]
A
Which is the follow up.
- [71:04]
B
I know. I've gotta. Hopefully I'm not gonna wait three years.
- [71:07]
A
Well, I'm so glad you liked it.
- [71:08]
B
I loved it. Tell me about our book club pick this month.
- [71:12]
A
Yes, our book club pick for June is Almost Life by Kiran Millwood Hargrave.
- [71:17]
B
This.
- [71:17]
A
This is about two women who meet in 1970s Paris and begin this whirlwind romance that ebbs and flows over the next three decades or so. It's beautiful and I can't wait to discuss it. And if you'd like to discuss any of what we've talked about here today, I'd like your Trader Joe's snack suggestions, please. You can join us in the Facebook group under Baton Paper Podcast. That's also where you. You are going to vote for the July listener Pick. Book club pick.
- [71:50]
B
Great segue.
- [71:52]
A
Thank you. You can also join us in the BFF group, which is under Bow on Paper Podcast. There we go. We're on Instagram under Bow Paper Podcast. And I am on all places on the Internet under Olivia Mentor.
- [72:04]
B
Did you forget a little bit there where you were on the Internet?
- [72:07]
A
I. Well, for a second I was like, should I plug my books? And then I was like, I'll plug your books. They know. No, no. I don't know why I thought that. You can find them. Go to oliviamenter.com. it's all there. Buy my books if you'd like. That'd be wonderful. Thank you.
- [72:20]
B
You should buy her books and goodbye. I am on Instagram.
- [72:23]
A
I don't know why I'm saying this like I've never been here before.
- [72:25]
B
I thought you forgot your name. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is eccafreeman substack.com and I have a book coming out this October called Back where We Started and I would love it if you would consider pre ordering it. And we will see you next week, which is unfortunately not our first lines episode, but we're gonna schedule that.
- [72:44]
A
Oh, I'm ready.
- [72:45]
B
Bye.
- [72:45]
A
All right. By.