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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Bat on Paper podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia, mentor.
- [00:23]
A
And it is our May three things. It's just morgue, sport of things.
- [00:28]
B
Yes. But first, let's talk about some highs and lows. What is your high?
- [00:35]
A
I mean, I had to clear out all my other potential highs when this came through earlier. My friend's daughter invited me to special friend day at her school, which is tomorrow.
- [00:47]
B
What is this? I saw this in the outline and I was like, oh, Becca had a special day with a friend. That sounds so nice.
- [00:53]
A
It actually sounds really creepy in here. Special friend day.
- [00:55]
B
It is all caps. So. So this does make. But okay, tell me more. This sounds really cute.
- [01:01]
A
So this is a two hour afternoon thing at her school. She's four, but her school goes up through elementary school, maybe even through middle school. So it's a hybrid. It is special friend day slash grandparents day. So I'm getting ready to meet a lot of grandparents.
- [01:20]
B
Oh, that's nice that they do that. So if you don't, you know, if the kid doesn't have grandparents in their life for some reason, they can have a special friend or their grandparents can't come or whatever.
- [01:29]
A
Yeah, all of her grandparents don't live in New York, so. And I don't think they were just gonna come for this two hour thing. We do get treated to some snippets from Trash Day, the musical.
- [01:41]
B
I've never heard of that one.
- [01:43]
A
Well, because it was written by the students there.
- [01:45]
B
Oh, okay. Well, that's actually pretty impressive.
- [01:49]
A
My friend, her mom said that she's seen it and she's excited to compare notes with the only other person she'll know who has seen it. And she saw the full cut, which was 90 minutes. I'm happy that I'm only seeing a 20 minute selection.
- [02:02]
B
4 year olds. 4 year olds did the whole 90 minutes, or is it still elementary?
- [02:05]
A
The whole school. So the four year olds apparently had a. How did she phrase this? They had a movement number that was part of the transition between trash dimensions.
- [02:18]
B
Oh, oh, I see. I think.
- [02:21]
A
I don't see. But anyway, I'm excited. I'm like, I'm gonna go have lunch. I'm gonna watch Trash Day, the musical. I think there's probably some craft. We go to their classroom and do things. I'm excited. I'm honored.
- [02:32]
B
That's amazing. That sounds actually like thrilling. Like, what a nice way to spend a day. That's unlike any other day you'll have in the next six months.
- [02:41]
A
Truly. I Was like, I will clear my schedule for Goldie. Like, whatever.
- [02:44]
B
Oh, that's a cute name, too.
- [02:46]
A
What about you? What's your high?
- [02:47]
B
My high is we've had some really good house moments this week. We got the library ladder finally, and it is installed. We did that at 9pm tested our marriage in a lot of ways, but it is installed.
- [03:01]
A
My number one question about the library ladder is, are you able to kind of swing it across the room like Beauty and the Beast?
- [03:11]
B
I could on my own power if I, like, pushed off.
- [03:15]
A
Yep.
- [03:15]
B
You know, I don't really want to do that.
- [03:18]
A
Oh, that would be the first thing I would want to do.
- [03:21]
B
It feels a little bit like it could collapse.
- [03:24]
A
Sure.
- [03:24]
B
If I did that. Even though it's pretty secure, but it is a little bit scary once you're up there. But Jake could definitely, like, pull me along.
- [03:33]
A
Okay. So you can make a video. He could, like, squat and, like.
- [03:36]
B
Yeah, exactly. So it's very exciting. It's also just very convenient because I literally cannot reach the top three shelves. So it's useful. It works. The dimensions are correct. We had to do it custom. And I was like, please get this right, Jake. God knows I would not have. So, yeah, it's a big moment because I envisioned it like, the second we walked in this house more than three years ago. So that was really thrilling.
- [04:02]
A
Oh, my gosh, that's so cool.
- [04:02]
B
And we ordered it probably three months ago, so it's been a while. And then the next day, I randomly went into this large antiques warehouse that we have near us, and I've been on the hunt for, like, the perfect large kitchen island slash table. That is an antique piece of furniture. I had a really clear vision of it, but it has to be certain dimensions. Our kitchen is a weird size to begin with. I walked into the store, I turned a corner, and I saw this piece of furniture, and I audibly gasped. I was like, that's it. It's perfect. It's done. It's the right thing. I measured it. The dimensions work. Other than the fact that as of now, we cannot get it through any doorway. Oh, but so did you have possession of it?
- [04:49]
A
Is it in that weird garage or.
- [04:52]
B
No, we haven't picked it up yet. It's apparently very heavy, which does make sense. But we're going to go pick it up at some point. I don't know. My brother's in town this weekend, so I'm like, maybe I will use his strength and Jake's strength, and together we will get it in the trunk. And get it back here. But I think we're going to have to wait until we cut a hole in the wall for the windows to put it inside, so.
- [05:14]
A
Wow.
- [05:15]
B
Yeah. Or we can maybe angle it a certain way. I'm just not sure it's going to be close. But in terms of the dimensions for the actual space, it's perfect. So I'm obsessed with it. It has, like, one tiny, adorable drawer. It has this weird copper insert in it. I can't really describe it, but it's just the perfect combination of weird and classic and old. And it feels good to have that checked off because that's, like, the centerpiece of the whole space. So very exciting. Very, very exciting.
- [05:46]
A
I saw it on Instagram. It looks perfect. My other question for you on this topic is, are you going to put, like, a fabric curtain around it? Are you going to leave it open?
- [05:58]
B
That's a good question. I think we are going to leave it open. I thought it could be good for stacking wood for the wood burning stove. Oh. Or just extra storage for pots and pans. Probably not both, because that'd be kind of gross. But I think we're gonna leave it open. I. I really like the two levels of it, and it's really hard to find, but I am gonna have a skirt in a different part of the kitchen, obviously. I love a skirt.
- [06:24]
A
Very exciting. I cannot wait to see how it evolves.
- [06:26]
B
Thank you. Well, what's your low?
- [06:29]
A
So I actually have home on the low side this week. I had my first apartment fail last week. I bought a new bathroom light fixture, the fixture that came with the apartment. My realtor, the first time he saw it, took one look at it and was like, this is homophobic. Like, it is the brightest light. It is the most unflattering light fixture I have ever seen. It was like it belonged in a surgical operating theater. It was so bright.
- [06:57]
B
Oh, my go. Oh, God.
- [06:59]
A
So I got a new one that was very cute, and I had it installed, and now I am the Goldilocks of bathroom lighting because it's not bright enough. And this new light, for whatever reason, has, like, a shockingly low wattage capacity. The capacity is 7 watts per bulb.
- [07:20]
B
That means nothing to me.
- [07:21]
A
And it takes, like, an LED light. So there's plenty of lights that would be bright enough, but, like, it would short it.
- [07:27]
B
Ah.
- [07:28]
A
So now I need to get this uninstalled and see if I can return it, which my designer seems to think I can just play dumb, and I should be able to return it.
- [07:39]
B
I Hate returning home stuff.
- [07:40]
A
I know.
- [07:41]
B
I was thinking about, as we were putting together the library ladder, what it would take to return it, and I was like, please, God. Please, God, please, God. That's the worst. But I'm sure you can.
- [07:53]
A
I hope so. And then it's just annoying because I can't uninstall it myself. Like, I don't do electrical.
- [07:59]
B
Right. Yeah, I did. I figured that about you.
- [08:03]
A
But somebody on Instagram asked if I was switching the light fixtures myself, and I was like, that is giving me way too much credit.
- [08:09]
B
There's a lot of, like, color matching. It's. Yeah, it was very flattering that they
- [08:13]
A
thought I was capable of that, but I don't share that view of myself.
- [08:18]
B
Well, that's one thing. Like, if you get it wrong, there could be some serious problems. So you don't want to mess around, but. Well, hopefully you get that sorted.
- [08:26]
A
I hope so.
- [08:27]
B
What about you?
- [08:28]
A
What is your low?
- [08:30]
B
Well, you've already heard about my low.
- [08:32]
A
I was shocked by your low.
- [08:34]
B
I. You know, I debated saving it to tell you now live, but I was in such a state of chaos and shock and, like, humiliation for myself that I had to share. So, Milo is is a cautionary tale to authors out there. It's a little bit embarrassing on my part, so I debated saying it now. But I thought, you know what, if anyone else is out there dealing with this, which apparently a lot of authors
- [08:59]
A
are, I had never heard of this before. So it's a good psa.
- [09:04]
B
Yes. So here's the story. So, essentially, I had a deadline that had moved on. May 1, I was going to send my editor something. April 30, the day before, I get an email from my editor that says, hey, Olivia, can you send me the draft in a Microsoft Word doc and are you free to talk about edits next week? Xx Gabby. That's the name of my editor. It's how she emails. It's the normal format. It was a normal question because it was due the next day. I send this long reply back to her and I'm like, okay, I'm not quite done, but here's where I am. But on and on and on it went. I was, like, very vulnerable. It's a scary thing to be like, I'm trying so hard to meet these somewhat arbitrary deadlines. So she replies within three minutes. And she says, can you just send me what you have now? And that was right before we recorded last week.
- [09:56]
A
Yeah. And you were. We talked about it a lot before we got on the podcast. Because you were kind of freaking out about the fact that she was gonna return edits. The next week would be kind of unheard of. So you were like, what's going on? What does this mean?
- [10:13]
B
Yeah. And I was like, okay, so, oh, my gosh, this is really behind now. I. Like, I. I thought it was the kind of like, a relaxed thing. She had been like, you know, take what time you need. Don't rush. And then all of a sudden, it was, you know, okay, I need it right now.
- [10:28]
A
Yeah.
- [10:28]
B
And I talked to a lot of authors, editors that I know about this, and they were all like, you know, they. They probably have a meeting or they have to kind of come up with a plan for next year, and they're trying to get deadlines in place, and she just needs to know where it is so she can plan. And I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. So the next week, I email my agent to loop her into this, because she wasn't cc'd on the email, which is a bit unusual. But I don't know, I figured maybe, like, it was from the cracks.
- [10:58]
A
Yeah.
- [10:58]
B
Like, not. Right.
- [11:00]
A
A red flag.
- [11:01]
B
Right. And it was from my editor's. What I thought was her personal email address. So I was like, oh, you know, when you're on your phone, you're just kind of quickly shooting off an email. Like, you don't necessarily think through all the. The things or whatever. So I loop in my. My agent. I tell her about this, and my agent says, oh, you should make sure this is actually Gabby. And I was like, oh, of course. Excuse me, because. Because we've emailed on this address before. When we first started working together in very early 2025, I was like, of course it's her. And Dana, my agent was like, oh, let's just make extra sure, because this has been happening a lot different scams. And I was like, what a weird scam.
- [11:39]
A
I've heard so many scams about people impersonating other authors, people impersonating agents. I have never heard of somebody impersonating somebody's editor.
- [11:50]
B
Right. And I should say in this email, the person mentioned Dana, my agent.
- [11:55]
A
That's wild. That's like a wild amount of scam research.
- [12:00]
B
Yes. The subject line was Blue House. In the email, it was formatted like my editor. It had the Hachette confidentiality boilerplate. At the end of the email, it mentioned my agent, Dana. Anyway, I didn't mention this. Long story short, when they asked for the draft right away, of course I want to, like, Be helpful, and I want to give my editor what they need. So I sent it. And then the whole weekend, I was so nervous. I was like, oh, I sent my draft out, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, cut to Monday. When I talk to my agent, I check in with my editor at her work email address. Turns out, not her. Not her. So I sent my draft. Not only this draft, I also sent a man the manuscript of Little One after I sold it in January 2025 to this email address.
- [12:43]
A
Wait, what?
- [12:44]
B
Yes.
- [12:45]
A
So you had emailed with them. I thought you were mistaken and it was, like, one letter off or something.
- [12:50]
B
No, I had emailed with them in January 2025. At the time, I had just sold little one. I hadn't worked with my editor that often, so I kind of thought, oh, maybe you just. Same thing. Maybe she just does this from her personal email address. Wasn't. And it was the same kind of thing. Was asking me for the Word document. It wasn't the weirdest thing in the world. I sent it. I did not think about it again for a year and a half until this time when I was like, oh, I've emailed with her before.
- [13:20]
A
Okay, so what did Dana, your agent, say? Like, why is. I don't understand what the end game of this scam is like? Because clearly with Little One, it wasn't. They, like, they were, like, ransoming it or releasing it somewhere. Like, I.
- [13:38]
B
What is the point of this scam? I have no idea. I have no idea. I was really mortified. I was so embarrassed. I was panicked because it is such a vulnerable thing to send a draft, of course.
- [13:52]
A
Of anything, especially to be sending it under duress a little bit where you're like, I'm not ready. I'm not done with it.
- [13:58]
B
Yep. Yeah. So it was just this horrible, horrible feeling. But both of my agent and my editor were like, this has been happening left and right. They've gotten really good at impersonating editors and their email style and how they talk and how they sign their names, and they have absolutely no idea why. Like, nothing has really come of it.
- [14:19]
A
Yeah.
- [14:20]
B
Thus far, I guess. But I just felt so stupid, and I was already in this place of, like, don't feel stupid. Don't know if this is good. And, like, I'm really. I've just been so burnt out, and I've tried so hard, and. Ugh. And then I had to go through the whole process again of emailing my editor and being like, okay, here's what I told the scammy words. I know I was like, okay, so this is what I told Fake, Fake Gabby. Anyway, so all this is to say, just be extra careful. If it is not from your editor's official work email address, just make extra, extra sure that it's them. It's probably not them if it's not from their work email address. But I think. And I was talking to another author friend about this, but, like, hearing from your editor is such a, like, intense, like, exciting thing. No matter how many times you hear from them, it's like you want them to be happy, you want to be responsive, you want to be communicative and, like, updating them and giving them all the information and giving them exactly what they need, you know? And so I did not hesitate to just reply right away. And it was funny because something did feel off about it to me, to the point where I was talking to multiple people about it. Like, and no one, not a single person, was like, oh, it's a scam.
- [15:38]
A
I mean, don't feel stupid. I can say with a hundred percent certainty that if I were in your shoes, I would have done the same thing.
- [15:45]
B
That does make me feel better. And I was assured that I am definitely not the only one.
- [15:50]
A
And especially with the deadline, timing is uncanny. Like, if I got. If I got an email today when I don't have anything due and there's no deadlines we've discussed. Yeah, like, that would strike me as weird, but, like, a day before a deadline, absolutely, I would do the same thing.
- [16:06]
B
And then I thought, well, I had mentioned that I did have an April 15th deadline on here. So I was like, maybe they found that out somehow.
- [16:12]
A
Are this. Are these scammers listening?
- [16:14]
B
Well, God, I hope not, because now I'm Whatever. But I've blocked them since. Of course. But then it wasn't that, because the deadline then got pushed two weeks, which I didn't talk about here. No one would have known.
- [16:28]
A
I know.
- [16:31]
B
The plot the whole time I was testing you. But anyway, I. I hope whoever's enjoying my About 85% finished, half first draft, half third draft.
- [16:47]
A
Oh, man.
- [16:49]
B
Of my novel.
- [16:51]
A
Maybe they're just a super fan and they're like, I can't wait any longer to read Blue House.
- [16:56]
B
I guess not. I guess not. I mean, hey, to be loved. I'll take it, I guess. But anyway, so that was my low. But. And I was already feeling really fragile, so it. It really upset me and made me feel very violated and very embarrassed and. Yeah, but I'm just a human.
- [17:17]
A
Yeah.
- [17:17]
B
And it's their fault for being weirdo scammers and not my fault for just trying to be responsive and helpful. But I'm feeling better now. But it was really like this moment of like, oh, my God. Why? Why? Why did I do this?
- [17:32]
A
Oh, man, I'm so sorry.
- [17:34]
B
Well, thank you. But now we all know.
- [17:37]
A
Yes, we've been warned.
- [17:38]
B
Now we've been warned.
- [17:39]
A
I will treat every email from my editor here on out with deep suspicion. I'm not joking.
- [17:45]
B
No, do it, please do. I. I wish I. I mean, the only thing that brings me comfort is like, they had the early manuscript of Little One and nothing happened. Yeah, nothing came of it, you know, So I assume this will be the same. Anyway, let's take an ad break and then we will get into some things.
- [18:04]
A
Let's do it.
- [18:10]
B
This episode is sponsored by Caraway Home. It is officially May and officially farmer's market season here in the Hudson Valley. And there is just something about coming home from the market with beautiful fresh eggs and produce that just makes cooking so much more fun. And being able to prepare that food in beautiful cookware and store it in gorgeous storage sets makes a difference too. And that's why I love the Caraway Home items that I have in my kitchen. I use Caraway items every single day without fail.
- [18:41]
A
And Caraway has more than just pots and pans. In addition to the storage set Olivia mentioned, they also have baking and roasting products, griddles, and even a complete bar set. Personally, I have had my eye on a knife set that they have that is very aesthetic for keeping on my countertop. So if you have hosting on the mind this spring and summer, Caraway has you covered.
- [19:03]
B
Right now. You can save up to $230 on the 12 piece cookware set versus buying the products individually. Plus, if you want to include their fan favorite minis duo, you can save up to $350. Visit CarawayHome.com BoP to take an additional 10% off using code Bop on your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com bop or use code BOP at checkout.
- [19:35]
A
Okay, Olivia, kick us off. Give me a thing.
- [19:40]
B
Okay. I want to talk about naming characters in books and character names in books.
- [19:45]
A
Oh, okay. Good topic.
- [19:48]
B
Okay, I want to come at this through a few angles. One, I want to know how you do it. And two, I have sort of a personal dilemma right now, which is can
- [19:58]
A
I name one of your characters that
- [20:00]
B
was not going to be the next thing I asked, but. But potentially. Potentially. So I have four kind of Core characters in the story I'm writing right now. And usually how I name characters is I choose names that I really like, but I wouldn't one day want to name children if I chose to have children. Okay, so it's like kind of like the B list. It's like, I like this, but I wouldn't choose it necessarily for a lot of reasons. Okay, so like, one of the names of the characters, for example, two of them actually are names of friends, kids. Oh. And I really like the names, and I wouldn't use them because they've already chosen them. Two of them are similar names I really like, but not 100%. So here's the thing, though. All of these characters were born in the early 90s.
- [20:51]
A
Yep.
- [20:51]
B
The names are not going to be names that would be typically chosen in the early 90s.
- [20:58]
A
I mean, I think that's fine. I think authors like Ellen Hildebrandt always have very specific WASPy names that would not be popular.
- [21:08]
B
Okay, so it's like, can you give me an example? Okay, this isn't the character's name, but it was this name at one point. It's very similar, the name Willa, which I love, but I could look it up. I'm sure it's very, very, very low on the list of popular baby names in the year, say, 1992 or whatever. But I love that name. So I guess what I'm saying is sometimes when I'm writing, I think about this thing of like, is this an easy problem that I could fix to avoid someone writing a review that would be like, no one would have these names in the 90s, you know, and then it's like, one thing I can avoid that that cost me nothing. But personally, I really like the names. Like, I personally, I think it's more interesting than it being like a, you know, insert very popular 90s name here.
- [21:56]
A
I mean, leave it. First of all, I can think of two Willas who would have been born in the 90s. I worked with somebody named Willa who would have been born in the 90s. And then Willa Bennett, who's now the editor in chief of Cosmopolitan, is named Willa. So their parents were just ahead of the curve. Your character's parents, meaning. I don't think it's so anachronistic. Like, if you were writing in. I'm trying to think of an egregious example. Like, if you were writing a book in, like the 1800s and somebody was named, like, what's the most, like, present day name you can. Harper yeah, but I could see somebody being named harper in the 1800s.
- [22:36]
B
Really? A girl.
- [22:38]
A
Like, you know, if, if, like, if it was really egregious where you were, like, there's just no possible way. But Willa doesn't. Doesn't ring that alarm bell for me.
- [22:47]
B
Okay. Okay, good to know. Maybe it's because I listened to that Anne Helen Peterson podcast episode about, I think it's the sociology of baby names. Maybe I, I might be getting that slightly wrong, but the expert said something like it bothers. Bothers them when they listen to or they read a book and they're like, no one would have had that name. But okay.
- [23:07]
A
Also, of all the complaints that you could have about my book, not liking the names is not that hurtful to me.
- [23:15]
B
I guess it's like I want to avoid friction where I can in ways that don't matter creatively.
- [23:21]
A
Okay.
- [23:22]
B
But at the same time, my main thing when choosing names is that I cannot have characters have a name that starts with the same letter.
- [23:29]
A
That's a very good thing.
- [23:30]
B
Yeah. That's one strategy or one kind of parameter that I keep in place for myself. But what about you? How do you choose names? Do you have any rules?
- [23:39]
A
Tell me, how do I choose names?
- [23:41]
B
And do you ever change them? Yeah, I think we've talked about this maybe a bit, but do you ever, like, get to where I am and like, let's switch it all up.
- [23:49]
A
So I feel like naming. Almost feels like naming a child not to be overdramatic for a main character, you know, where it's like, I really think about it. So in back where we started, the main character's name is Katie. And that was important to me because I wanted her to have, like a really normal sounding name, to feel really, like, unspecial. Like, there are so many Katies or like Lauren's or Jennifer's, you know, like one of those types of names. So I really wanted her to have a name that felt like it faded into the background. I do think I kind of play a little bit safer with main character names. Like, I don't go very far afield. I do keep a list in my phone or in my notes app rather than. And I have names divided into categories, and so I consult it pretty often if I need a character name for not a main character. So I have different sections in it. I have female main character names, female side character names, which are like, ones that don't rise to the level of a main character name for me. Male main character names, male side character names. Older women, older men. And then last names. And there's probably, like, last name. 300 names. I was just gonna say I struggle with last names so hard.
- [25:11]
B
Well, they feel like extra fake because most of the time, they don't really come up a lot in the story to me.
- [25:20]
A
Do you know what I do sometimes if I'm really stumped on a last name? It's like, just grab the closest book and I look in the acknowledgments, and I just start stealing people's last names.
- [25:29]
B
That's smart. That's very smart.
- [25:32]
A
Not for the main character, where it's like, oh, I know more about them. Where were their ancestors from? What last name might they have? If I just need a random last name, I do just sometimes pick up somebody else's acknowledgments, and I'm like, nobody will ever know. That's effective about changing names. So I did have to change a name. With back where we started, the love interest's mother's name changed. And she was Gloria. For it had to have been, like, three drafts. She was Gloria in my head. Like, it was late in the game. Not late in the game, but it was like, she was Gloria. And my agent's assistant was like, I don't think her name should be Gloria, because that's the mom's name on Modern Family. And she was also Latina. And I was like, it's a valid point. I don't know. And so I ended up changing it. And I had such a hard time moving away from that name because it was so cemented in my brain.
- [26:34]
B
Yeah, it would be hard after a certain. And that's kind of where I am. It's like, if I wanted to change even one or two of the core four names, it would be psychologically very difficult. Cause they've been with me for now a year and change.
- [26:47]
A
Do you know what I realized restarting Book three? So I, too, try to stay away from names that start with the same letter or at least the same consonant sound. Because sometimes you can have ones that start with the same letter but don't sound alike. I realized that everyone in this book has a name that ends in an ie sound.
- [27:07]
B
Oh.
- [27:08]
A
And I was like, I gotta start changing some names here.
- [27:10]
B
Yeah, you gotta change them.
- [27:13]
A
I was like, I think I had, like, five characters in the kind of core ensemble with names that ended in ie. And I was like, oh, we gotta. We gotta mix this up.
- [27:23]
B
I think about stuff like that, too. Like, if it sounds too similar or all four of them had the same amount of syllables. That would bother me too. Like, we really have to be different. Yeah. I'm, like, counting them all out in my head now. They're all different, but that's very interesting.
- [27:36]
A
Yeah. I feel like I end up procrastinating on names quite frequently. Like, I'll go on the Social Security popular names list for whatever year I think they were born. I'll end up on, you know, nameberry or one of those baby naming websites, like, looking for, like, a certain type of name. Like, that is somewhere where I can just fritter away so much time.
- [28:02]
B
I get that. Yeah. So far, I just choose the names, then I refuse to let them go usually. Or I change them slightly.
- [28:10]
A
Do you keep a list of names that you've already used? Because I think about this all the time. Where at some point, you know, can you reuse the name of, like, oh, that was this main character's brother. So not the main character, but you're like, can you. Can you then reuse that? Or when can you reuse that? So I. I don't have a combined list going. It's just kind of in my head. But at some point, I'm like, oh, when can you recycle names you've used?
- [28:35]
B
There's so many names. I feel like I couldn't. I even. So when I started a third book that I eventually put away, the main character's name was Isla. And then at the very beginning of Blue House, the main character's name was Willa. And I didn't like that they both ended in an A, even though they're
- [28:53]
A
not in the same book.
- [28:54]
B
Right. Okay, sure. And that's why I ended up changing Willa. But, yeah, even stuff like that bothers me that it's too close. So I don't know if I could fully reuse one.
- [29:03]
A
Okay.
- [29:04]
B
For main characters, certainly not.
- [29:06]
A
At some point, you're gonna, like, start running out of names. No, not really, but you're gonna have to get. You're gonna have to get, like, further afield. You're gonna have to get more creative.
- [29:14]
B
I hope I'm writing so much that that is the case. That would be great.
- [29:18]
A
So wait, so you name characters after your friend's children? Are they sometimes, like, okay, so it's
- [29:26]
B
more like I like the name. Like, I actually would prefer to, like, fully avoid. So, for example, one of the core characters in Blue House has a name that my friend was considering for a baby name, and I just really liked it, and I asked her, and then she ended up Choosing it for her baby who is now born. And I was like, are you still okay with me using this in the book? And she said, yes. In general, if I could avoid having names of. It's kind of like when you're choosing a baby name and you like don't want to choose a name that you have any prior associations with. It's kind of like that because I don't want people to ever think that it has anything to do with them in any way, shape or form.
- [30:05]
A
So sometimes I do it on purpose and I put it in for both positive and negative, not negative, but like,
- [30:12]
B
okay, so as you know, if I believe that.
- [30:16]
A
So as an example, there's a character in back where we started who's a fashion stylist. And I named her after my friend's 16 year old daughter trying to score cool aunt points. Like, I was like, that's cool. I was like, her name's Malaya. I'm like, let's go. Malaya will read this, she'll tell her friend, like, I'm like, this will really get me some cool points. I think she's a big reader.
- [30:40]
B
That's very cool.
- [30:41]
A
And then sometimes when I can't think of a name, I'll just throw in a name of my friend. So like in this next book, there is a woman who owns a donut shop and I just named her Molly after one of my best friends. And that's. I don't remember why I did it. And it's like she's not. I don't even think she has any lines, but she's just there. Or like I couldn't think of a name for the high school principal or vice principal or something. So I named him after my friend Nick. Like I just like throw my friends names in there.
- [31:12]
B
But do you ever feel like you choose the name arbitrarily or whatever and then it just like doesn't fit and then you have to choose it again? It doesn't fit the character.
- [31:20]
A
Yeah, sometimes I do that for side characters. I get pretty. Once I, I feel like I put a fair amount of thought into main characters and I get pretty locked in, but there's some side characters. Like there was a. Again, like he wasn't speaking, he wasn't there. But like it was such a side character. In back where we started, it was like the main character's agent's husband who had 9,000 different names. Like every time I got to it I was like, that doesn't feel right. Let me put in something else. I'd get I'd go back to the beginning, start it over. That doesn't feel right. Like, this man, gun to my head. I do not think I could tell you what his name is in the final draft.
- [31:58]
B
That's like, I feel like I always have one male character like that that just ends up being named Brian. Like, nope, that's Brian. I think that name just gets reused.
- [32:07]
A
Sure.
- [32:07]
B
I think there's a Brian in this one, actually.
- [32:10]
A
That would actually be really funny.
- [32:11]
B
If somebody. Or like a Chad or a Brad. It always seems to fit. If somebody of a certain person did
- [32:17]
A
a deep dive of your books and, like, found out each character named Brian and who they were, do you think it's the same Brian recurring through all the stories? Like, he's just. He's the connective tissue?
- [32:31]
B
Maybe I had a neighbor named Brian. Maybe that's it. It's just such a, like, generic male name that could fit so many different age ranges. Just feels right. Well, what's your first thing?
- [32:44]
A
Okay, so for my first thing, I want to talk more about Lena Dunham's memoir, which I read last week. I really enjoyed it. But more broadly, I feel like she is really winning with her memoir versus, I feel like we talked about. Lindy west has created a maelstrom of chaos around her memoir. And I wanted to know, I guess, a what you think makes a successful celebrity or known person memoir. Two, because you've read Lindy West's memoir, but you haven't read Lena Dunham's. They're both kind of like this. I think of them in the same category as, like, kind of polarizing, lightning rod, outspoken women. Women. I want to know if you have any theories about, like, why Lena Dunhams is succeeding and Lindy West's is failing. It's funny because both of us have only read one side of it, so we can't really speak to it. And then I'm curious if you have any favorite celebrity memoirs. I've just packed three sub things into my main thing.
- [33:47]
B
Yeah, I mean, well, again, I've only read Adult Braces by Lindy west, but I would say, one, I don't think she created what's happening as much as her husband did or has.
- [34:01]
A
So you think if he hadn't responded to that journalist, things wouldn't have gotten as dramatic?
- [34:07]
B
No, I think it would have fizzled out much faster, in my opinion. And the other thing, that. Not. Not that I would push back on necessarily. That's not maybe the right word. But I read this really interesting article from an agent that was about the conversation around Lindy West's memoir failing or whatever, because it's selling 3,000 copies in a week. And she was putting into perspective. We can link it in the show notes. It was by Anna Sproul Latimer, but I think the title was something like, actually, 3,000 copies in a week is not bad for nonfiction. And I don't know, I wouldn't call it like a failure, because I think there are a lot of people who did read that and had the experience I had, which is that, yeah, I have a lot of feelings about her husband, and I don't think that they really helped her slash. I don't think they're probably a good fit together at all. But that book and, like, this is another memoir. But compared to Strangers, which I feel like has been praised across the board,
- [35:13]
A
yeah, I almost put Strangers in a different camp because people didn't come in knowing or having preconceived notions of Belle Burden for the most part. And I feel like the discourse has been around the salaciousness of the story, and people have feelings about her. I know you said it felt like there was an emotional remove, but her job wasn't really to litigate people's preconceived notions of her. I think a lot of the discourse that I've seen has been more about the story than it has about her as a person. Like.
- [35:50]
B
Well, I guess I'm talking in terms of the actual content, like, writing content of the memoir and coming to the table with a vulnerability and an openness that I think it's undeniable that it's in Lindy West's memoir. And I don't think it's in Bell Burdens at all. I think it's as salacious as the story is. I think it's incredibly surface level. I haven't read Fame Sick, but from what I've heard, the writing is incredible. And I would assume it has that same sort of emotional vulnerability where you're like, almost you're feeling whatever the author is feeling so deeply that you're, like, almost cringing, like, uncomfortable. Do you feel the vulnerability coming through the page? You know, and to me, that's what makes Lindy West's memoir a success, regardless of the perception.
- [36:38]
A
Well, taking a step back more broadly, like, what do you think makes a successful famous or known person memoir? Not, like, sales successful, but, like, what makes it work for you as a book?
- [36:52]
B
In my limited experience of memoir, I would say I have to feel like you are revealing an emotional truth. That maybe you would rather not.
- [37:02]
A
Okay.
- [37:03]
B
You know, like, I have to feel like you're coming with radical honesty that was difficult for you to write in some way or.
- [37:12]
A
That's a tall order.
- [37:14]
B
It is. And I listened to the glamorous trash recap of Brandy's memoir, which I know that you've been interested. Have you read that one?
- [37:20]
A
No, not yet. So it's still on my radar. I haven't heard that much praise for it, so I'm like, do I need to read it?
- [37:29]
B
Well, this is an interesting point that they bring up in. In this glamorous trash episode, which I would recommend. So, first of all, didn't realize her brother was Ray J. Yeah. Yeah. And she mentions how close their relationship is, how much she looks up to her brother, how supportive he is of her. Not once does she mention the sex tape or, like, how that affected their family or her or.
- [37:50]
A
That's probably a legal decision. Like, I don't know that she would be allowed to.
- [37:55]
B
Maybe. But I. But say she. She. There's no NDA or whatever she could have. It's kind of like. It's not that you have to reveal every. Every deep, dark part of you, but I think you have to reveal some of them if you're writing memoir, in my opinion.
- [38:09]
A
Yeah. It's the emotional truth.
- [38:12]
B
Yeah.
- [38:12]
A
What you're agreeing to with the reader. Like, I will tell you parts of myself that you wouldn't know from following my career.
- [38:19]
B
Right. And I don't care so much about the, like, celebrity, like, the Jack Antonoff gossip. Like, that doesn't appeal to me at all. But when I hear. When I've seen snippets of the writing of fame. Sick. And, like, the emotional truth that I've seen in some of those sentences, that's what makes me want to read it, because I feel like that's me connecting with a real person, not reading about a celebrity's life.
- [38:40]
A
Okay.
- [38:41]
B
What about you? Because you're more of a celebrity memoir aficionado than I am.
- [38:46]
A
I mean, I'm definitely not the most, but I've been thinking about this since I finished reading Famesick. Like, what made it work so well for me? So I think, first of all, one thing I really dislike in a celebrity memoir is when they spend too much time focusing on their childhood. I'm sorry, but I don't care.
- [39:05]
B
That was apparently 90% of Brandi's, so
- [39:08]
A
I'm sorry, but I don't care. And Lena Dunham starts right after she graduates college and is, I think, about to make Tiny furniture, which was then the precursor that got her girls. And she did have a previous memoir to this that did focus on her childhood. But I think one reason this was so successful for me is that it jumped in, like, there was not a lot of the. Let me tell you my origins. And I think even still, she did a great job capturing her family and the kind of dynamic in her family, but it was told through the present or through flashbacks, as opposed to, like, here's seven chapters about my young life. So that's one thing for me with a celebrity memoir. I do agree with you. You don't need to tell me everything, but there does need to be some level of your walls are down and that you're not trying too hard to defend yourself. One thing that I really appreciated about Lena Dunham's memoir is obviously, she was explaining things and she was talking about her side of things, her point of view. But she did not go as hard as she could have at, like, here's where I was wronged. I'm thinking specifically about the narrative with the backlash against her body. You know, she was like, here's some other things to think about. You know, like, it was very measured in how she approached it versus, like, fuck you. I'm right, you're wrong. And I think sometimes when you read a memoir where it's like, somebody did this because they have an ax to grind, like, it's not fun to read. And then I think another thing is that you have to. I disagree with you. I'm there for the gossip. You need to give me gossip. You need to talk about the things. You don't have to talk about them, like, in full. You don't have to talk about them in a way that you're not comfortable with. You have to talk about the things that I'm coming expecting. But then you also have to give me things that I didn't know to ask about. So I think if I'm thinking of my other favorite celebrity memoir, Jessica Simpson's memoir, she talks about all of this Mickey Mouse Club gossip that she was kind of in and around that I had no idea about. You know, she talks about an emotional affair she had that I don't think made it to the tabloids. Like, she was kind of telling on herself a little. And the same with Lena Dunham. Like, you know, I came wanting to hear about girls. I came knowing that this was going to deal with her breakup with Jack Antonoff, her relationship with Jenny Connor. But there were other things in there that, like, like, her talking about Adam Driver on set and his bad behavior and, like, oh, did they almost hook up? I was like, oh, I didn't even know to ask these questions. Like, I think that element of, like, we did they.
- [41:45]
B
I am curious about that.
- [41:46]
A
There's a scene where she invites him over, seemingly that they're going to hook up, and then she. She doesn't answer the door when he rings.
- [41:56]
B
Oh, yeah. Wow.
- [41:58]
A
Yeah.
- [41:59]
B
See that. That does interest me.
- [42:01]
A
Totally, totally. I'm trying to think of other bits like that, but, like, that type of gossip that I didn't even know to ask about but is interesting to me, that does it for me.
- [42:10]
B
Okay. Yeah, I can see that. For sure. For sure.
- [42:14]
A
The last part of my question that we didn't get to is like, what are some of your favorite celebrity memoirs?
- [42:20]
B
This is kind of a weird one. Only because she's not a celebrity that interests me at all. But, I mean, Jeanette McCurdy's I think, is, like, the blueprint.
- [42:28]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [42:29]
B
And I mean, she wasn't a celebrity that interested me much in and of herself, either before or after the memoir. Like, I haven't read her novel, for example, but.
- [42:37]
A
But I think that's a marker of a successful memoir, too, is like, you can tell a story that's interesting regardless of somebody's prior investment in you. And I feel that way about Jessica Simpson's memoir. I obviously knew who she was, but I wasn't like, Team Jessica in the Britney Kristina battle for pop dominance.
- [42:57]
B
Yeah. I mean, you know, when I listen to the recaps on Glamorous Trash, there are very few times when I listen to the discussion, and I think that I could have had a better experience that made me want to read the memoir. Except for the one on adult braces.
- [43:14]
A
Okay.
- [43:15]
B
Where I listened to the whole conversation on it, and it made me want to read it for myself. Every other one, I've been like, okay, I got it. Like, I got the highs and lows. I understand.
- [43:25]
A
Thank you for talking memoir with me. What do you have for us next?
- [43:28]
B
Oh, well, my next thing is that apparently it is Teacher Appreciation Week. Shout out to all the teachers out there getting through the end of the year and looking forward to summer. I know we have a lot of listeners. Thank you for all that you do. But I wanted to know if you have any teachers in your life history past that have meant something to you or that something is stuck with you through time and space.
- [43:51]
A
Interesting. I have teachers that I have weird memories of. Like, I had this US History Teacher in high school who made us memorize the names and order of all of the presidents and their party. And we would have to take this quiz, like, in my memory, like, every other week until we all knew all of the presidents, the years that they served, which was kind of wild. Like, I remember that as, like, a really weird thing.
- [44:20]
B
So something that's come in handy a lot in your adult life, probably.
- [44:23]
A
I mean, it's good for Jeopardy, but outside of that, not really. I remember him being a really passionate teacher, too, but that's kind of like a weird memory more than, like a made impact to my life. I had this professor in college, Professor Hafner, who ran the international studies program. I was an international studies major, a major that I have done nothing with. And he was a fascinating guy. He was like a national security advisor to Jimmy Carter, I think. And he was. Oh, he was.
- [44:53]
B
What party was Jimmy Carter?
- [44:54]
A
Democrat. He was older and he had great stories. But one thing that he was so particular about was that on his syllabus, in addition to the books, for the course, you had to buy the Simon and Schuster Handbook for Writers, which was a grammar manual. And if you had grammatic errors on any paper you submitted to it, he would give you a chapter notation of what you had done wrong. And he was a hard grader about grammar things. And I don't know that it. I don't think I'm great at grammar, so I don't know that it, like, truly transformed my writing. But there are certain things, like a comma splice, or like, there are certain split infinitive. Like, there are certain things that I will think of to this day and be like, nope, can't do that.
- [45:45]
B
What class was it that he taught?
- [45:48]
A
It was like an Intro to International Studies class. It was like the major first class.
- [45:53]
B
Wow, okay. And he was like, we're about to get really intense on grammar.
- [45:58]
A
Absolutely.
- [45:58]
B
I had a reporting professor that was like that. If you had any error in your reported piece, like, you got a whole letter grade off or something.
- [46:08]
A
But I can't think of anyone who. And I'm sure there were. I can't think of anyone who, like, was like, oh, this teacher specifically believed in me and made a difference to my career choices. And I think some of that was because the area where I remember most excelling is math. And so. And that's something that I don't really have any interest in and hasn't informed my career, any iteration of my career in any way. And so I wasn't like, oh, thank God. This person noted that I was good at math, and that became useful to my life. I was like, oh, but, yeah, I don't remember ever really being encouraged creatively in writing, art, anything like that. I don't know. I didn't have bad teachers. I feel like I'm being a Debbie Downer to the spirit of your really lovely question.
- [46:58]
B
No, I mean, I have a lot of weird memories from teachers, too. One, when we were in high school, there were two of our teachers that were dating each other.
- [47:06]
A
Oh, that's so scandalous. In high school.
- [47:08]
B
Had a field day. And they were like, looking back, I think they were like 25, 26, you know, so I always wonder what happened to them.
- [47:17]
A
But I know you're not together. Your English teacher who you interviewed on Little Pod, who was really impactful to you, Are there other. Any other teachers that stand out to you?
- [47:27]
B
Well, you. You know, I always remember I had a teacher in, I think it was fifth grade, and her name was Mrs. Mason. But I had a teacher that I really, really loved, and she got married and she invited us all to her wedding. Wow. Which I. I remember feeling like was the. The coolest thing ever. So, yeah, we all got to go to the. To the ceremony. And I still remember that. And I've tried to look her up on Facebook to like, see what happened to her, but I can never find her.
- [47:53]
A
I have two other memories that have surfaced. One is that in fourth grade, my teacher was. I think her name was Mrs. Gold, but she got married mid year, and I can't remember if that was her maiden name or her married name. But anyway, she read us the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. After lunch every day, she would read a chapter of the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. And I remember that whole class was hanging on her every word. Like, we loved that story so much. And I was already a big reader, but that's like something that really stands out to me as formative.
- [48:24]
B
That's very sweet.
- [48:26]
A
And then the other memory that has surfaced was this gym teacher that I had in middle school. Can't remember his name, can't picture him, but he was obsessed with orienteering. Did you ever have to do orienteering?
- [48:40]
B
No.
- [48:40]
A
Where you have, like, a compass?
- [48:41]
B
I've never heard that word in my life.
- [48:43]
A
It's a map. And you have to, like. It's like survival skills. You have to, like, find things with a compass and a map.
- [48:50]
B
No, no, I would have. That would have been like the. The Presidential Fitness Test mile, where I just chose to walk the Entire way as to just give up at the beginning. I would have been. I. No.
- [49:03]
A
And I remember we did like an orienteering unit every year and it was something that didn't strike me as strange at the time. But as an adult, I'm like, that's weird.
- [49:11]
B
That is. I've never heard of that.
- [49:14]
A
I mean, I guess it's useful. It's like camping survival. And like cell phones weren't as prevalent and they didn't have maps on them. So it's like if you're camping or hiking and you're lost in the woods, like, here's how you find your way back.
- [49:25]
B
Jake's dream. Honestly, Maybe Jake took that class.
- [49:28]
A
Maybe, yeah. Did he have an orienteering unit in his middle school gym class?
- [49:34]
B
Maybe. It would explain a lot. Honestly, it really would. I also had, I had basketball coaches I really loved and I've like stayed, you know, like in Facebook contact with. And I can remember like when their kids were born when I was in high school. And now their kids are like graduating high school and it's so crazy to me. But yeah, I had like a very tight knit basketball team and coaches and it was a really special experience.
- [49:58]
A
Oh, I love that.
- [49:59]
B
Well, shout out again to all the teachers out there. Yes. We love you. We remember you. You don't have to invite your students to your wedding, but if you do, they may remember it 20, 20, 30 years later. I don't. How old am I? Who knows? Anyway, let's take another ad break and then we'll get into some last things. This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. I feel my best when I'm wearing clothing that feels like it fits me and my life. It feels comfortable in every setting, whether I am sitting or standing or working or at the gas station or grocery shopping. And Cozy Earth has so many pieces that fit this exactly. Take their jogger sets, for example.
- [50:45]
A
They're made from viscose from bamboo, which is light, breathable, and the kind of soft that only gets better over time. And they have a tapered fit with a relaxed waistband and just enough structure that they look intentional rather than sloppy. Like they're sweats that I would have no hesitation wearing on a plane or out to run my errands. They also have clogs now, which I'm very curious about. They have a cushioned footbed, a soft interior, and an easy slip on silhouette that feels like the right choice every time you reach for them. Supportive enough to stand in, cozy enough to forget you're wearing them. These are definitely on my Wish list this spring.
- [51:21]
B
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- [51:44]
A
Okay, so I only have two things today because my third thing is something that right before we started recording, we decided we had to make a last minute change to next week's episode. And so it's going to be to be in there instead. So tell me your next thing because I only have one left.
- [52:03]
B
My next thing is a question, a thought. Do we still care about the Met Gala?
- [52:10]
A
In theory, do you?
- [52:11]
B
Did you ever.
- [52:13]
A
Oh yeah, I cared a lot about it.
- [52:15]
B
Tell me more.
- [52:16]
A
I cared a lot about it. Like I feel like in earlier iterations of Instagram, it felt like the type of viral moment where everyone's paying attention to the same thing. Before that existed on such a rapid fire cadence. Like I remember looking at the vogue slideshow, the vogue.com slideshow of all of the looks and like wanting to be in the know about what people were wearing and like know which my favorites were. Like I really cared about it. And I usually try to go to the costume exhibit at the Met. So alongside of it with the theme, they curate an exhibit of clothing from the theme. Usually not anything that anyone's wearing on the red carpet, but separate. And I do try to go to that every year to see it. I thought this year's was a snooze.
- [53:04]
B
I didn't pay that much attention. I mean I, I have some like favorite looks that I saw or whatever. But other than that, I didn't think
- [53:11]
A
the, the theme was like fashion is art or something, which I think is a really easy to interpret theme. Like I thought everyone, everyone's adherence to theme was like not great. I really liked Chase Infinity was one of my favorites. Emma Chamberlain was one of my favorites.
- [53:28]
B
Yeah, those were my two favorites.
- [53:29]
A
I really like Gracie Abrams as well, which was modeled off of a Klimt painting. And I think it didn't quite do it justice from afar. Like the close up photos of the detailing made such a difference. But yeah, I thought this year was a snooze. And I gotta tell you, one of the things that I was most excited for about this Met Gala was the heated rivalry boys and what they would wear. And I don't think either of them knocked it out of the park.
- [53:55]
B
Did you see Hudson Williams after Party look.
- [53:58]
A
Yes, I. His after party look. I wish he had worn that to the Met Gala. I don't think. I mean, I don't think his actual outfit really adhered to the theme, so I don't know that his afterparty outfit would have been better or worse. But I thought that was really fun and interesting.
- [54:14]
B
It was very fun.
- [54:15]
A
And I think Connor Story is such a hunk. And he's. He always looks good, but he's always dressed in ysl. And it's all from this current collection. And there's, like, a sameness to it that, like, isn't that interesting. Like, I. And I'm sure he has contracts that he's getting paid a lot of money for and, like, good for him, but, like, I wish he was able to take a bigger risk.
- [54:34]
B
Can I share my biggest disappointment of the night or my biggest. Like, you have access to anything you want, and that is what you wear.
- [54:41]
A
Is it Anna Wintour?
- [54:43]
B
No, because I kind of always feel
- [54:45]
A
that way about Repeated. An outfit that was basically a different colorway of an outfit that she wore in 2019, which I was so disappointed by.
- [54:52]
B
My question mark was Margot Robbie. I'm like, what are you doing? You are Margot Robbie. At the Met, you had you. I would have preferred her to. To see her in literally anything she wore in Wuthering Heights to that thing. It's like, is this a Jessica McClintock dress from 2007?
- [55:10]
A
Is there, like, a deeper inspiration here?
- [55:12]
B
I don't know. I didn't care if the dress isn't good. I don't care. I don't know. I was just like Margot Robbie.
- [55:22]
A
Some of them with a theme I didn't understand. You know, I don't have, like, the deepest knowledge of art history, but then I saw it was modeled after a certain painting, and I was like, oh, with this information, it changes slightly how I feel about some of the outfits that people were wearing.
- [55:37]
B
Yes. That's how I felt about. What is her name she's on. Victoria. Yes. That's how I felt about that dress.
- [55:44]
A
Yep.
- [55:44]
B
Yeah, but. Yeah, that one. I was like, there is, like, a cool back detail to it. But I was like, I just. Margot Robbie's. I mean, I just. I don't know. I was like, blah, blah, blah.
- [55:54]
A
Yeah, yeah. But I wanted more weird, interesting looks. Yeah, it felt very safe.
- [56:03]
B
It's also like the Met Gala is entertained by, like, award shows and outfits and all of it. But I think, increasingly, when the world is the way it is, it is just so absurd. It is so absurd. And it hovers on that line between, like, this is absolutely obscene and also, like, a distraction and entertaining. And I feel this year it drifted more into the, like, what are we doing?
- [56:28]
A
Hmm.
- [56:29]
B
Like, but I don't know. Then there's the Devil Wears Prada of it all. And I know it's featured heavily in that in the second movie. I think I could be wrong, but I think.
- [56:38]
A
I wouldn't say heavily, but it is featured. There's like a montage. Yeah.
- [56:42]
B
Did you like it?
- [56:44]
A
I did. I really liked it. I think I liked the moments when it was playing to nostalgia more than the moments when it was, like, trying to be relevant to 2026.
- [56:54]
B
Interesting. Okay, well, what's your final thing?
- [56:58]
A
Okay, my final thing is that I feel like in last week's episode when we were doing our catch up about writing careers, we were maybe a little too doom and gloom about how hard things are. And in the interim, because we're very lucky to be doing this. And I'm really grateful that I get the chance, but there is a precarity to it that feels really anxiety inducing. But since then, I've seen two author career milestones that I was, like, really impressed by that I wanted to talk about, and I wanted to see if you have any kind of memories of reading author's earlier works who are still relevant today. So let me tell you the two things that sparked this. So the first thing is Jennifer Weiner is celebrating 25 years since her debut novel, Good in Bed. So it came out in 2001. I cannot remember if I read it in high school or if I read it in college, but I definitely remember reading Good and Bad and being so kind of scandalized by the title and, like, the promise of the premise being about this woman's love life. And you know, Jennifer Weiner, I get her substack. She's still incredibly relevant as an author today. And I was like, oh, wow, that's incredible. And then the second one is I went to this luncheon hosted by Random House on Monday, and Jodi Picoult was one of the authors there, and she is celebrating her book that comes out in September, which sounds awesome, by the way. It's her 30th book, which is incredible. And so her first book came out in 1992.
- [58:44]
B
Wow.
- [58:44]
A
And then this will be her 30th book. It's called Hollow Bones. And just as a quick aside, she told the story of why she wrote it, because the marketing copy, I'd seen it, it didn't do much for me. But she said that her inspiration for the book was this. Drew a post secret that. Like Tumblr.
- [59:02]
B
Yeah.
- [59:03]
A
So it was a post secret post where somebody had written, everyone who knew me before 911 thinks I'm dead.
- [59:10]
B
I was gonna ask you if it was that one because that's the most famous one. And everyone wonders if it's saneha Phillips, which is. That's a whole true crime thing. We can get into another day. But.
- [59:22]
A
So that's the inspiration behind the book, which I was fascinated by. But anyway, 30 books in 34 years, incredible milestone. And I have like, the sharpest sense memory of reading the Pact, which was her fifth book, came out in 1998, of reading the Pact on a train when I was studying abroad in college. And my friend Carolyn, who I was traveling with, must have finished it. And she was like, do you want to read this? Or maybe I picked it up at a hostel. I have no idea how I. I didn't buy it. It just like, came into my hands. And I remember being on this train and we were being super cheap and we were taking overnight trains that we didn't have to pay for places to stay. And I remember being like, thank God I have this really long train ride somewhere in Eastern Europe, because I'd like, never want to stop reading this book.
- [60:16]
B
I can remember in like, growing up, we had like a den and her books being on the shelf in there.
- [60:22]
A
Well, are there other authors that you have high school, college, early 20s, memories of reading who are still like, did you read Barbara Kingsolver when you were.
- [60:31]
B
No.
- [60:32]
A
Younger?
- [60:33]
B
No, I mean, I really read mostly like, classics in high school. I think I just didn't really know my reading taste until well after college. So I think. And this is similar to what I was saying in the last episode, but I find it so inspiring now when I discover an author and then I realize that they've been publishing for so long, I think that is the coolest thing that you can publish. 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 books.
- [61:00]
A
30 books. Oh, my gosh.
- [61:03]
B
And then still you are discovering new readers. Like, that's so cool. And that's kind of how I felt at the Liz Moore event, like, hearing her talk about this book that I have literally never seen the COVID of. I've never heard anyone talk about that she wrote, however long ago, more than a decade, I think. And then to see everyone standing there with her other books is just so cool to me. And. And yeah, I hope we didn't come off too doom and Gloom. Because there is truly so much that inspires me every day. People doing cool things for very, very long periods of time. Women, I should say women, but also men.
- [61:40]
A
I mean, look at. Look at Stephen King.
- [61:41]
B
Look at, like, that's true.
- [61:43]
A
The career that he has had and how prolific he has been in publishing. Multiple books a year, usually.
- [61:50]
B
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I think that's what makes it so amazing, is that you do this for the tiniest bit of time. You know how hard it can be. And the fact that there are people who have figured out how to do it is both the dream and also the most inspiring thing, and all at the same time.
- [62:07]
A
So do you know who another author is who was like that for me, who has now passed, was Sophie Kinsella, who died earlier this year. And she was an author who. I remember reading the Shopaholic books when I was. I think I was in high school. And then. I don't know that I've read every Sophie Kinsella book, but I've definitely read close to every Sophie Kinsella book. And she is an author who has been by my side for decades of reading.
- [62:36]
B
I love that.
- [62:37]
A
Yeah.
- [62:38]
B
I don't have a lot of authors that I read in high school that I am still actively reading. I'd have to think about that harder
- [62:46]
A
because there's other books that I remember reading. Like, I'm thinking of, like, Bridget Jones's Diary, which was so culturally such a huge thing. And Helen Fielding hasn't really published that much. She's published a few subsequent Shopaholic books. Like, there's many books that I can think of. There were huge cultural moments also, like, looking at Jodi Picoult like My Sister's Keeper was, like, such a huge moment. But, like, the thing that's interesting about Jodi Picoult is, like, how she's remained relevant and how she's kept publishing on an every year, every other year schedule throughout that time.
- [63:20]
B
I do not. I do not know. I do not know. It's so astounding. I mean, I think Gillian Flynn is someone I would have read but hasn't.
- [63:29]
A
Hasn't written that much.
- [63:30]
B
Yeah, she hasn't published many, many, many years. But she would definitely be someone who I can remember reading in early college that I still would be and I still admire just as much and is obviously still very successful in doing all kinds of things, including having her own imprint. But, yeah, there's lots of people out there being successful at this, and it's very cool to see.
- [63:51]
A
Yeah. Shall we get into Some ed matter.
- [63:54]
B
Yes.
- [64:01]
A
Tell me about your obsession, because I only know. I only know the end point of this, but I'm not positive about how you got there.
- [64:12]
B
Okay. All right. So I was on reels the other day, and I came across this reel of this dad and his three children sitting in a van. And they're Irish, and they're all singing this song called Killa.
- [64:27]
A
It's.
- [64:27]
B
It's spelled K, I, L, L, E, A, G, H by this band, Kingfisher.
- [64:32]
A
Okay.
- [64:33]
B
Which I had never heard the song, but these children are singing this song so passionately that, like, it just warmed my heart. So what type of.
- [64:41]
A
What flavor of song?
- [64:43]
B
Like, it's kind of like Irish folk music meets Mumford and Sons.
- [64:48]
A
Okay.
- [64:48]
B
Sort of.
- [64:48]
A
Okay.
- [64:49]
B
Helpful. It's very much like, you can picture a lot of people in a pub singing this at the top of their lungs kind of thing, or children in a van. I don't know. So I. As I've talked about here, I love Irish music a lot. And I was like, oh. And then this brought me to, like, this song. I listened to it a lot. Then I went to dinner last night with two of our friends who we had been talking about for the last year, very casually, about going to Ireland together. We'd say, we're going to go to Ireland. We're going to do this. Never booked the trip or whatever. And I was like, oh, well, I don't think it's gonna work this summer because we have, you know, a lot going on and blah, blah, blah. And then I went back and I was still listening to the song. And then my reel started to turn to just, like, come stay in this cottage in Donegal. And I'm sorry if I didn't say that. Right. In the north part of Ireland. And. And I was like, hmm. And then I woke up this morning and I saw a reel, and it was so perfect. I looked at the website of this cottage. It had only three days open in June. Most of the rest of the summer is booked. And I was like, you know what? We're doing it. And I booked it.
- [65:57]
A
I love this spontaneous travel moment.
- [66:00]
B
So now I've. I have a whole Google Doc. I have a week of things laid out. We're gonna do a little bit of city hopping. Not confirmed yet if my friends can actually go. But I was like, I'll be there. You want to come? You're going. You can come. Jake's coming, I'm coming. It's going to be great. I've been craving, like, a spontaneous adventure Trip, like, lots of just driving, and we're going to drive along the wild Atlantic way, and we're going to stop at little villages. And yeah, I'm going to do it between finishing my draft, so help me God, and starting the kitchen renovation. And yeah, I'm really. This. This cottage is. It's. So.
- [66:40]
A
This is a cottage.
- [66:41]
B
I'm so excited.
- [66:43]
A
Where you also get to run a bookstore, is it?
- [66:45]
B
No, no, no.
- [66:47]
A
Do you know that one's in Ireland, too? Or maybe that's in Scotland.
- [66:50]
B
That sounds great. I don't think there's any running of a bookstore involved, but there's, like an ocean view, there's cliffs, there's beaches, there's castles. I've heard this part of the country is really, really beautiful. And I've been to Ireland a few times, but not here. So we're going to be there for three days and. Or I'm going to be there. This is in the early stages, but anyway, it was all thanks to the Irish family singing their song in the car. So thank you guys for making me feel spontaneous for once in my life.
- [67:20]
A
You and maybe anyone else with you, but definitely, you have to record your own reel singing this song to, like, keep the chain going.
- [67:28]
B
I know I'm one of those really annoying people who, like, wants to go on 23andMe and, like, find my Irish relatives and go meet up with them. Like, that's. That's a very annoying American tourist vibe that I am bringing to the occasion. But I'm really excited. Irish for you just speaks to me. Okay, well, tell me your obsession.
- [67:47]
A
A little less adventurous. But I've been doing this thing where I keep eating ice cream in the afternoon, like, at like 3 or 4pm at my desk, and it feels really illicit in some way. Like, it feels like I'm breaking a rule by eating ice cream out of the container at my desk during the workday. And the grocery store by my new apartment kind of has Haagen Dazs pints on permanent sale. They're like two for $7. I can't remember how much, but anyway, I keep trying new flavors of Haagen Dazs pints. And I tried this flavor that is called caramel cone. And it's like caramel ice cream, and then the cone is dipped in chocolate, and there's like, cone pieces throughout it. Olivia, I hope the sale at my grocery store never ends. I am really into it was permanent. I hope so. I mean, it has been since I've been going there, but I've Only lived here a couple months. It's really good. I've decided that I really like this treat too. Like, I hope that my next book captures the vibe of I was eating ice cream at my desk at 3pm While I was writing this.
- [68:56]
B
That's a nice comp too.
- [68:58]
A
Yeah.
- [68:59]
B
A vibe. Yeah. That sounds really nice.
- [69:02]
A
That's how I hope the book feels.
- [69:04]
B
I did go get ice cream after my spam incident the other day. I was like, we're going to get ice cream.
- [69:09]
A
Nobody has deserved it. More.
- [69:11]
B
I was like, we're going to.
- [69:12]
A
What flavor?
- [69:13]
B
No one can take this from me. Mint with brownie pieces in it.
- [69:16]
A
Yum, yum.
- [69:18]
B
That's very good. Waffle cone, yum.
- [69:20]
A
I like to do a cone in a cup because I'm usually a little too messy if I just have the cone.
- [69:27]
B
That's a smart move. Very smart. Well, what have you read?
- [69:31]
A
You'll be happy to know that you influenced my reading and I said that I was reading it last week, but I finished Vantage Point by Sarah Sligar, which you had said was one of your five star reads for this year. This is the book that is about a Kennedy inspired family afflicted with a generational curse. And it's set on an island off the coast of Maine. And there was an element in this book that I was very surprised by. Like an almost sci fi element in this book that I didn't expect and I really enjoyed. There needs to be some like, suspension of disbelief, but I was into this book. It's not my usual fare. I really enjoyed it and it struck me. I mean, I'm not the biggest thriller or suspense connoisseur, but it struck me as really unique. Like I'd never read something with this plot line before.
- [70:24]
B
Yeah, weren't all the little Wikipedia snippets so good?
- [70:28]
A
I really liked it. I also really, really liked the author's writing style.
- [70:32]
B
Yeah, you should. I don't know what? I think you'd like her other one. If you ever want something Take Me Apart, I think is her other one.
- [70:40]
A
Okay.
- [70:41]
B
I'm so glad you liked it.
- [70:42]
A
I really enjoyed it. I'm also reading a book right now that I'm obsessed with and I feel like is gonna be five stars.
- [70:48]
B
Me too. Wait, what are you reading?
- [70:50]
A
Take Me with youh by Stephen Rowley.
- [70:52]
B
Oh, okay. Different book.
- [70:53]
A
Oh my gosh, it's so good. I can't wait to be done with this podcast so I can go read it.
- [71:00]
B
I'm savoring my current read. I don't want it to go away ever. Almost life.
- [71:06]
A
Oh, I have that on my Kindle. I've been meaning to read that.
- [71:10]
B
It is. Oh, it's so good. I only, like, halfway through, but I feel like, oh, my gosh. Well, we'll talk about it next week. Okay.
- [71:17]
A
But for this week, what did you read and finish?
- [71:21]
B
For this week, I have two books that I did read I didn't totally love. Just be honest. The first one is American Fantasy by Emma Straub, which there's nothing wrong with it. I just feel like it had. First of all, I could not keep track of the characters. There were band members, you mean just all of them? There were so many characters and so many points of view loosely intertwined. I really wish that one of them was not in it.
- [71:50]
A
Which one?
- [71:52]
B
The, like, cruise director person.
- [71:55]
A
Oh, I loved that. I really liked this book. And after. I can't remember when, but we were talking afterwards and you were like, I couldn't tell by the way you were pitching it. Like, did you actually like it? And I was like, yes, I really liked this book. But I feel like other people are having a tough time with it. So I don't. I didn't want to go overboard on pitching it because I know that it's, like, kind of a polarizing read that some people have, like, not enjoyed it. But I love the minutiae of, like, what it would involve to run a cruise with celebrity talent. I loved her perspective.
- [72:27]
B
I really liked that, too. I did. There were so many things about it. Like, the boy band aspect was really interesting. The sort of midlife aspect of it was interesting. The collision of those two things worked. It was just. There was almost, like, so much happening and nothing, like, connected with me like I wanted it to. But there were a lot of really fun parts and scenes. And I read the whole thing. And, I mean, you liked it a lot. And I know a lot of people feel the same, so, you know, different strokes. And I loved the last sentence. Last scene I thought was really, really great. I'm glad that I read to the very end because I just liked how it ended. And then the second one I went on an interesting journey with it was the Ending Writes Itself by Evelyn Clark.
- [73:09]
A
I have been wanting to read this. I saw an article that pitched it as, like, a takedown of the publishing industry.
- [73:18]
B
Yeah, I think most writers will appreciate it. Anyone trying to get published, anyone who has been published, I think people will appreciate it in a lot of ways. If you are not in the writing industry at all, I don't know if you would appreciate it. It has sort of like a satire, Agatha Christie kind of knives out vibe to it, which really worked for me for the first half and then I just completely fell off of it in the second half. I don't know, there's like the ending I didn't quite connect with either. It was just, it was something about it didn't grab me. But I did listen to an interview with the authors and it's a writing duo of this woman who's a screenwriter and then V E. Schwab.
- [73:58]
A
Yes, that's also fascinating to me. I think writer pairs like Christina, Lauren, like people who write a book together under one name is so fascinating. I like, I just, I want to know everything about how that process works.
- [74:11]
B
Yeah, they. There's a poured over episode where they're talking about it live and it is so interesting because it is not how you would think they would have worked together. And so yeah, I didn't like, I didn't hate either of these, but I just, you know when you read two books and you're like, that was fine. And then you read a next book and you're like, oh my God. And then you realize the difference in those feelings. I certainly think that there are people who would love both of these books.
- [74:36]
A
But I gotta tell you, I DNF'd a lot this week. Oh yeah, Ivan being a picky Patty,
- [74:43]
B
more power to you. I'm still struggling to find that muscle. Well, it sounds like we're going to have a lot of good things to talk about book wise next week. So I'm excited, very excited.
- [74:55]
A
In the meantime, we have our May book club pick, which is into the Blue by Emma Brody. And I don't know if I have ever gotten more excited comments and messages about a book club pick. So I'm so excited to read this with all of you. I've been thinking about this for literally 6 months since I first read it. It's a second chance romance about these two teens who meet as kind of outcasts working at a video store. And just as it seems like something romantic is going to happen, the guy disappears and then they reconnect in their 20s or 30s as they're trying to make their way in the entertainment industry and they're both cast on this like improv sci fi show. It is a really great romance. Also has one of the most interesting third acts I've ever read in a romance, which is like 99% of why I want to discuss this. So read that. We'll be discussing it the last Wednesday of May, which is the 27th.
- [76:02]
B
Yes, I can't wait to read this. And if you want to talk to us about anything in this episode, you can join us in the Facebook group under Baton Paper Podcast in our BFF group under Baton Paper Podcast. Our Instagram is bad on Paper Podcast and I am on Instagram and Substack and everywhere else.
- [76:23]
A
Olivia Mentor I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman. My newsletter is@beccafreeman.substack.com and I have a new book coming out in October called Back Where We Started and I would love it if you considered pre ordering it. See you next week.
- [76:37]
B
Bye.
- [76:37]
A
Bye.