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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia, mentor.
- [00:24]
A
And today is our first bonus beach reads book club. Say that five times fast for our partnership. You did great. Thank you. I've been practicing all morning for our partnership with Sol de Janeiro.
- [00:37]
B
Yes, we are talking all about the five star weekend by Ellen Hildebrand. My first Ellen Hildebrand novel. Somehow.
- [00:44]
A
Oh, my God, your Ellen Cherry. I can't wait to discuss this. I can't believe I was looking right before we got on. We've never done an Ellen for a book club, so I feel like this is long overdue.
- [00:56]
B
That's shocking. And what better timing, because the TV version of this on Peacock just came out, so there's lots to discuss.
- [01:07]
A
Okay, before we get into it, this bonus episode is sponsored by Sol de Janeiro, the Brazilian inspired self care brand we're partnering with for our summer of soul. And you made it to the first meeting of our bonus beach reads book club that will be continuing all summer long. So you're probably already in the know. But we'll tell you more about the partnership later in the episode. So we're doing things a little different today. Just the book club. No highs and lows because we did that yesterday. So let's jump right in. Olivia, do you want to give us the summary?
- [01:38]
B
Yes. So after the sudden death of her husband Matthew, food influencer Hollis Shaw is feeling lost, to say the very least. And in order to regain her spark or maybe just distract herself from grief, Hollis invites four friends to spend the weekend with her at her Nantucket vacation home. One friend from childhood, one from colle, one from parenthood, and one Internet friend from her days as a blogger. And as the women who are all very different attempt to bond, secrets come to light and drama ensues.
- [02:13]
A
Oh, my God. Olivia, this is your first. Ellen, I need to know, how did it feel?
- [02:19]
B
It felt fun. It felt like a lot of fun.
- [02:21]
A
I was reading it and I was like, this book is slutty in a sex positive way. Like, this book is here for a good time. This book is moving quickly. This book is really kind of decadent and delicious with all the food descriptions and the house descriptions and the drama. Like, I don't know. This feels like the exact type of summer book I want to sink into.
- [02:47]
B
This really did feel like a book where the vibe was sort of like, here, have it all. Yeah. Like every type of drama, every type of food, every type of extravagance, here, it's yours for the taking. I was curious. What was your first Ellen book?
- [03:03]
A
Okay. I was curious about this, too, when I started this book, because I was like, I know I'm gonna have to talk about this. What is my Ellen origin story? And so I went onto my Goodreads profile to try to piece it together. And if I'm remembering correctly, I did not like my first Ellen book. I think the first book that I read was Winter street, which is one of her holiday Nantucket novels. And I read it in December of 2020, and that was right when starting the Christmas Orphans Club. And I think I was interested in really beloved holiday books. And people had recommended this, and the vibes are really different. It's a messy family drama. It's winter on Nantucket. I did not get it. And I think what must have happened is that I said this either on the podcast or on Instagram. I got just clobbered with DMs of people being like, okay, I hear you, but you have to read some of her other books. And the two most recommended were the blue Bistro and 28 Summers. And so then I read some of her summer Nantucket novels, like, right after in January, and I loved them. And then I caught, like, the Ellen Contagion.
- [04:22]
B
And how many have you read since? Like, of how many books has Alan Hildbrandt published? And how many of those has Becca Freeman read? I mean, I'm not Googling the second
- [04:32]
A
part, so I want to say she has 31, with the 32nd coming out in September with the second book of the Academy series. And I think there's some others that are short stories that I'm not sure if we're counting those. And I read 16 of them, so I read half.
- [04:47]
B
Oh, my gosh, that's more. I didn't realize. I mean, I knew you were a fan, but I didn't know that that much. That's incredible.
- [04:55]
A
Yeah, I went on a real bender with them in 2021. I read a whole bunch kind of across the spring summer, and then I kept up with the new releases that were coming out 2021 through 2024, which was her last Nantucket summer novel. Yeah. And I have a bunch on my shelf that I bought, but I haven't gotten around to, so I kind of slowed down. But there's still a lot of her back catalog that has been recommended to me that I really want to read.
- [05:24]
B
If you were to give someone, like, an Ellen starter pack, like, first of all, what are your favorites, and are they the ones that you would give someone who is new to Ellen.
- [05:33]
A
They're not a lot of crossover, but not 100% overlap.
- [05:38]
B
Tell me more.
- [05:39]
A
I would say my top Ellen is the Blue Bistro, which takes place at a restaurant. And it's about this woman who moves to Nantucket from Aspen young, like in her mid-20s, and is kind of a disaster, and she gets a job as a hostess at a fancy restaurant, and she gets sucked into all of the drama with the customers, with the kitchen staff, with, you know, the managers, the bartenders. It's. I think it is probably the best restaurant novel I've ever read. And having worked in restaurants all through college, I just devoured it. So that's it.
- [06:17]
B
It was accurate?
- [06:17]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah. So accurate. Like, so much drama. So that was great. The one thing I will say about telling somebody to read that is that it's from 2004, so it's a little bit jarring to read in 2026. Like, they have cell phones, but it's, you know, the flip phones with a minutes plan. Like, it's a very different kind of cell phones. There's, like, one or two things in it that on a behavior level, you're like, huh, that wouldn't fly today. So it just is slightly dated, but it's still fantastic. Okay, so that would be my number one. My number two is 28 summers, which is about an affair that takes place over the course of 28 summers. That one is, you know, more of a romance. It's also a tearjerker, so I would recommend it, but I would know. Just be prepared for when you want to cry. And then I think my third is probably the Winter in Paradise series, which is a series of three novels that actually take place on St. John, not on Nantucket. And it's similar to this book in that it's also about a woman whose husband dies suddenly. And after his death, she finds out that he had a second family in St. John.
- [07:31]
B
Oh, wow.
- [07:31]
A
And she goes down there with her adult sons to try to unravel what his life was there.
- [07:38]
B
All right, so those are your favorites?
- [07:41]
A
Those are my favorites. I think that if I was giving somebody a starter pack, what's missing is Ellen has a few that are more mysteries, so I might say the perfect Couple instead of the Winter in Paradise series. Both because the Winter in Paradise series doesn't take place on Nantucket, and then also just because I would want somebody to get the vibe of a mystery Ellen, which is not quite my vibe, but it might be another reader's.
- [08:09]
B
I have actually a really specific Question about Ellen books in general. That kind of leads into my next one about, like, what makes a quintessential Ellen book. So what surprised me about this reading experience a little bit is that I kind of expected it to be a bit spicier.
- [08:23]
A
Oh, yeah. Not spicy. Sometimes there are sex.
- [08:26]
B
Yeah. Like, what's the most chili peppers we get with an Ellen book?
- [08:31]
A
Half.
- [08:31]
B
What's the average? Half a chili pepper.
- [08:33]
A
Half a chili pepper.
- [08:34]
B
Okay.
- [08:35]
A
No, no chili peppers.
- [08:37]
B
Interesting. I don't know why. I guess I just kind of associate romance with sex.
- [08:43]
A
Now in books, I understand how you might have conflated that, given that Ellen kind of broke containment and became so widely popular kind of in maybe in 2020 or so. And that was around the same time Emily Henry was coming out. You know, we started to get Ali Hazelwood. Like, I think that it just kind of happened around the same time. So I totally see where you could have gotten the wires crossed.
- [09:08]
B
Well, what are the qualities that you think define an Ellen Hildebrand novel?
- [09:13]
A
So there's the Nantucket of it all, which I'm gonna come back to. There's usually food in some ways, whether that's food in a restaurant, whether that's somebody cooking. So I feel like Hollis is a quintessential Ellen character, that she' the food world in an interesting way. There's always drama. So, you know, I think all of her books are multi pov and everyone has some drama that's intersecting. So there's that. And then another signature of hers is the we chapters, which were less prominent in this book because she went to Hollis's community. But usually there's spread throughout. This book starts with one. There's wee chapters from the perspective of Nantucket itself.
- [09:58]
B
Okay. Yes. It had a sort of omniscient narrator vibe throughout.
- [10:02]
A
Yeah. I was kind of trying to think about how I would articulate this. Hear me out. I feel like the appeal of the Ellen universe is that it's Hogwarts for adult women. So it's a universe. It's a universe. Whether it's real Nantucket or fake Nantucket, it is a universe of people. And I was. As I was reading it, I opened the book and immediately I was like, oh, man. Like, Olivia's not gonna get this because it starts off with a paragraph and it immediately name checks. Blonde Sharon, who runs the gossip mill in Nantucket, and Fast Eddie, who's the real estate agent and Chief Kapanash. I'm not positive how you pronounce that. Who is the chief of police, who I think only gets a one sentence name check in this one. And he's in the hospital getting a workup for his heart. So like poor chief. But these people and some books are main characters but then are in the background of other books. And so there's people who recur through the books. Like Mario Subiaco is the chef at the hotel Nantucket and he used to be the sous chef at the book from the blue Bistro. Like you see all these people grow up and you know all about their lives. And then there's the places where, you know, instead of the potions lab. I don't know, I wasn't a Harry Potter kid. But you know, instead of that you have crew and you have the club car and the chicken box and you have these real places where I have this incredibly robust picture of Nantucket in my head via Ellen novels. And the other week a friend of mine was saying that she was planning a last minute trip to Nantucket. And in my head I almost said, do you want me to give you Rex? And I've been to Nantucket once in the winter for stroll. I have no business giving her Rex. All of my Rex are things from Ellen Hildebrandt novels. And so it also gives you the feeling of being an insider.
- [12:05]
B
Yes. You know, another thing I would compare it to is Gilmore Girls.
- [12:09]
A
Oh yeah, everyone's in everyone's business.
- [12:12]
B
If there was a theme park of this, people would go. I mean, people still do go to, I think the town that it's either based on or partly filmed in. I wonder if at this point, given the size of Nantucket and the fact that Ellen Hildebrand now attracts visitors just because of her books, I wonder if she wishes that it was like a fictional town. I mean people would still know it's Nantucket. But I think the fact that you can actually go to these places is so appealing to people in the way that like I would go to Stars Hollow if I could, you know. But yeah, I totally get what you mean. There's a coziness to it in a way.
- [12:50]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, so you said that it was fun, it was dramatic. You got it. But like, I think one thing about Ellen that's really fascinating is that she went to the Iowa's writers workshop. So I think Ellen's a great writer and I think she's really mastered pace in a way that few people have. So I'm curious how you found the writing.
- [13:12]
B
Yeah, I mean it's incredibly readable. That's the thing. I found myself Carrying this around over the past week and reading in waiting rooms. I was waiting for a doctor's appointment. And I think sometimes it takes me a second to really, like, sink into a book. And with this, it was so easy to just pick right back up where I left off and just keep going and to fly through it, and it just feels very fully formed. I think in a similar way, I wasn't a Harry Potter person, but a similar way to how I think people felt about Harry Potter, which is that they could really see all aspects of this world fully, right down to, like, what people are drinking, you know, in any given scene. And so I thought it was just, you know, a very fun time. You know, what's funny is that I knew about the, like, proper noun, heavy style that she writes in, where it's like you're naming the brands of wine, you're naming specific food all the time. Everyone has, like, a sort of unique first and last name, and you're getting them, like, every other sentence. And sometimes I found that very charming and fun, and other times I was like, why is this necessary? But hearing you talk about how all the books are interconnected now, I'm like, oh, of course. I think actually the police chief is one part where I was like, why did she need to put this line in? And now I realize, oh, it's because it connects to other books. Whereas at the time, I was like, this feels like wasted space.
- [14:39]
A
Yeah. Like you're checking back on beloved characters from prior books who maybe aren't as forward to this one. But especially with the chief, you get him a lot. Because in any of her books where there's more of a mystery component, he's involved, even if he's not a central character. So you get him a lot. You get Blonde Sharon a lot. Because she's involved with the gossip mill. So she was the one with her sister who was at Nautilus and was, like, trying to take a picture and get invited with them. So, like, these are all people who are part of the Ellen universe. And then the other thing with the proper noun of it is a lot of times she's name checking local businesses. And I was reading this article with this interview that she did in Boston Magazine last night, and they had a quote from the woman who runs Nantucket Looms, which they make blankets and, like, home textiles. And it's a. You know, it's a small business. And specifically, there was such a big thing about the Nantucket Looms blankets in the hotel Nantucket. And they had these special Hydrangea, blue ones made. And the owner was talking about just the bump in sales that they see. Like, it's almost as if Ellen is kind of a lifestyle guru for her readers.
- [15:51]
B
There was an aspect of it when it came to all the, like, the things of it all. You know, there's a lot of, like, designer names and specific foods and, like I said, really nice wines that kind of reminded me a bit of Real Housewives.
- [16:05]
A
Oh, yeah, I can see that.
- [16:06]
B
There's something about knowing that this housewife shops at this designer or drinks this or eats this or, you know, just the luxury of it all that really was kind of fun and escapist to me.
- [16:21]
A
And I think there's a lot of writing advice about not necessarily using so many proper nouns because it will make a book feel dated. And this book is from 2023, so it's not that long ago. But I bet each of her books is a bit of a time capsule of the year it was written in and that, you know, even three years out from it, there are things in it that feel dated that I'm like, oh, yeah, that was a 2023 thing.
- [16:44]
B
Yes. I think the phrase sneaky link is used in this book twice.
- [16:48]
A
Yep.
- [16:49]
B
And both times I was like, oh, okay. And that's a moment that I thought about that as well. But, you know, very 2023, for sure.
- [16:57]
A
Yeah.
- [16:58]
B
So what did it feel like upon second read? I can't remember what your first impressions or review of this book was, although I'm sure I heard it here on the podcast. But tell me what that was like.
- [17:09]
A
I mean, I really liked it. Again with last week we were talking about, I was saying with Cynthia Dupree Sweeney's the Nest, how I had read it before, and I'd forgotten so much of it. Again, I'd forgotten so much of this book. So I remembered Hollis being a food influencer. I remembered Tatum and Drew Ann and that they were friends from different phases of her life and they didn't like each other. I did not remember Brooke or Gigi at all, to the point where I remember when we were doing our episode about adaptations being like, why is Gemma Chan in this? And the minute I got to the chapter, I was like, oh, my God, of course. This makes so much sense. But I'd totally forgotten that plotline, to be honest. I don't think I remembered. It was about her husband dying. One scene that really stuck with me was I fully remembered the scene where her and Jack Finnegan go back to their high school makeout. Spot and get caught by a cop who's somebody that they went to high school with. And I think I would have said that they were cheating on their spouses.
- [18:12]
B
Oh, interesting, because there's a lot of
- [18:14]
A
infidelity in Ellen novels too.
- [18:17]
B
It's funny, when I was reading it, I obviously had all the actors who are playing the characters in the show in mind. And so when I was reading about Gigi, I was like, oh, of course, Gemma Chan. I remembered we talked about it and you were like, who is this posh? I know, maybe she's gonna have a posh friend. But that's funny. It's funny how I had totally forgotten
- [18:36]
A
about two of the stars.
- [18:38]
B
Do you remember having anyone specific in mind as you were reading, like actors wise?
- [18:44]
A
Well, even this time I immediately thought of Ina Garten because of the shirts. Hollis is introduced and she's talked about having these button down shirts that she wears a rotation of. And Ina Garten has her signature blue button down. And I just immediately locked in and I was like, I guess it wouldn't make sense because I don't think Ina was widely famous at the same age. I think her first cookbook came out when she was 50, so she was still in the building phase. But I was very much picturing Hollis as Ina Garten and I was picturing Matthew as if Geoffrey died and had a dark secret.
- [19:20]
B
Okay, interesting. Sorry, I was just picturing all the different people. And I was also picturing the guy who plays Matthew because I watched the first episode of the show, which we'll talk about later. But anyway. Okay, I see what you're saying. I mean, as I said, I was mostly picturing the actors who are in the show. But I do think, think that there's a world where Reese Witherspoon could have definitely played Hollis.
- [19:41]
A
Oh, I fully agree.
- [19:43]
B
I think again, we'll get to it. Jennifer Garner is excellent in this, but I do think there's that world. But I think for the most part, I could really see who was who. I didn't know who was who, but I looked at the front of it and I could kind of guess and I think it worked really well.
- [19:57]
A
We'll talk about it more. But I thought the casting was spot on watching the first episode. Okay, so tell me, what about this novel worked for you?
- [20:08]
B
You know, I really appreciated the twist. And it's because. And the twist being Spoiler alert. If you somehow have read this, that Gigi, who's going on this five star weekend with Hollis, her Internet friend, had been having an affair with her husband. And it was because when it came, I was like, oh, of course. Like, it hadn't really occurred to me before that, but I was like, oh, yes, this makes perfect sense. And this is so juicy. And immediately, right away, we have this point of tension. And I just thought, that's the mark of any good twist.
- [20:42]
A
It was such a psychotic move for her to go. And yet I also found it totally believable that, you know, grieving, not having anyone to talk to about him, not having any connection to him, that, like, she would seek out Hollis. Not in a serial killer type way, but I did find it believable.
- [21:00]
B
I go back and forth on that because I did find believable.
- [21:04]
A
Yes.
- [21:05]
B
If it had happened to me, if I was Hollis, I would be like, restraining order immediately.
- [21:10]
A
Oh, 100%. I'm not saying anything about that.
- [21:13]
B
She's gonna kill me.
- [21:14]
A
But I understand why Gigi went.
- [21:18]
B
Maybe it's Hollis's ultimate reaction that I have more of a problem with than Gigi doing it. The other thing that I loved so much about this book that I wanted to mention is I loved the character of Brooke. I loved how awkward she was. I loved how she was constantly trying to fit in, but just sort of didn't. And I just thought it was great. And I feel that way about the show version of Brooke as well. Were there any of the women Brooke or anyone else that really you just felt attached to?
- [21:49]
A
Okay, yes, but it's different than yours. But I have something to say about Brooke before I answer your question. So with Brooke, I kept thinking about Nina from so Old, so Young, which we read for our February book club, and, like, kind of this similar character of wanting to belong but never being able to say or do the right thing. And I was like, oh, Nina and Brooke are such kindred spirits.
- [22:13]
B
I did not think about that, but that does make sense.
- [22:16]
A
Okay, so I felt most compelled by Tatum. And I think one thing that Ellen does really well and I appreciate about her books is that this one deals much more with the wealth and privilege on the island. Just Hollis having this beautiful house and, you know, being either from her own success, from her cookbook empire, or because of her husband being a cardiologist. Like, there's a lot of wealth here. But I think one thing that's really interesting is that Ellen always plays off the kind of, like, working class slash extreme privilege of Nantucket, which I think is, you know, true to the dynamic there. And, you know, there's always characters who are living in kind of mid island, year round houses. And I thought it was so interesting, the story of Hollis going to college, of her wanting to get out of there, and her wanting to be more and Tatum staying and wanting to be with Kyle. I just, I thought it was really. I don't know, I thought the story about your past self and who you could have been, your ghost self, maybe. I thought that was really interesting.
- [23:20]
B
Yeah, we'll get to this. But I love Tatum in the show, maybe even more because of the acting choices. But I do think that she had a level of depth that maybe some of the other characters didn't get. And I think while Brooke I loved the most, just as a fun character, I almost wanted more. Like, she comes to this realization at the end of the novel that she's gay. And I was like, I feel like I could have had some more along the way to get there.
- [23:47]
A
It kind of felt like I was interested in a laugh.
- [23:50]
B
Yes. Yeah, it was even. And maybe I misread this, but there were some things, like, towards the end where she was like, oh, I'm gay and I figure this out about myself. So now all of my food issues are resolved.
- [24:01]
A
Yeah.
- [24:02]
B
And I was like, what is happening here? But I do think that, like, I'm interested to see. I've only watched the first couple episodes of the show, but I'm interested to see what they do with her character. Cause I do think there's so much there. And for a lot of people, that feeling of, like, really wanting to be in this group but not quite fitting in, always feeling a little awkward and weird, trying too hard is so relatable and, like, human. But I also think Tatum was a little less fun.
- [24:27]
A
Totally.
- [24:28]
B
Maybe intentionally she's going through something hard as well. But I think that's maybe the hard part about having so many characters, so much drama, so many storylines all at once. How did you feel about Caroline in the story, Hollis's daughter?
- [24:44]
A
So I really liked that plotline and I liked the way that they were grieving differently. And especially from Caroline's side. She could not empathize with her mother's grief at all. And at the same time, her mother couldn't say we were having marital problems or at the end, you know, spoil the legacy of her father by saying he was having an affair, even if it would make her so much more sympathetic to her daughter. I really liked that her daughter was there against her will. In some ways. I thought that was really interesting. And I also thought that the chapters where Caroline took the women Individually into the basement to interview them. I thought those backstory pieces were so additive to the story in a way that it wouldn't have made sense for that to come out, or it would have just read as, like, an info dump if you'd gotten them any other way. And plus, I always love a storyline about a character realizing that their mother is a complicated person or that there's things in their past that they didn't know about their mother. Like, that's, like, a real. I don't know if we're calling it a trope, but that's like, real catnip for me in a story. So. I really liked Caroline getting to reframe her mother via each of the stars. Well, I guess, except for Gigi. How did you feel about her? I'm getting the sense that you were more lukewarm on this plotline.
- [26:09]
B
I think the thing I struggled with was maybe the documentary aspect of it, like, the actual logistics of what is gonna happen to this she's making. Which at the end. I don't recall if there's any.
- [26:22]
A
At the end, she makes it into a short film that helps her get either an internship or her first job.
- [26:27]
B
Okay. I guess I thought it was gonna be more a part of what happened. I don't know. There's an interesting tweak on this storyline in the show version so far that I think might be working a little bit better for me. But I agree that I think Hollis having to deal with her daughter's emotions and account for her own and try to tiptoe around everything and make everything perfect worked really well. And I think that she needed to have the figure of Caroline. I just don't know if it totally worked for me in every spot. Also, like, I thought the romance was going somewhere at some point, and then there's.
- [27:03]
A
That was definitely, like, tertiary.
- [27:05]
B
Yes. I think that's the thing. Because there's so much happening, sometimes you get attached to a storyline that ultimately, like, isn't that important, so you find yourself wanting more of it. But I also think that's part of the suspense of the novel that works so well. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm on the fence about that.
- [27:24]
A
Yeah.
- [27:24]
B
The other thing I did love about this, though, and this isn't usually something that draws me toward a book at all, but the food description. Oh, my God. So good. I knew, but I just didn't. I wasn't prepared for how hungry I would be just throughout the entire book. It was just so well done. It made me want to cook. It made me want to host dinners. It made me want to do just, like, go to the grocery store, pick out a new ingredient. It was so beautifully done.
- [27:51]
A
Yeah. It was a real one two punch with the Hollis's cooking blog. Like, I want the nuts, the bacon, rosemary pecans that she served when the women first got there, that every. Brooke was like, I can't stop eating these. And I'm like, well, they're bacon. I wish I had real recipes. I know.
- [28:07]
B
Oh, okay. In the acknowledgment, she's. I forget where they.
- [28:10]
A
I want to, like, doordash them.
- [28:12]
B
Right, of course. Yes.
- [28:13]
A
I wanted them now.
- [28:14]
B
Okay. I get. Seems complicated, to be honest, but I agree.
- [28:19]
A
But there's the 12 punch of the food Hollis is making, then also them going out to restaurants. Although I will say I was a little bit upset because I love nautilus. There's a nautilus in Boston as well, so I've eaten there many times, and nobody got the calamari salad, which is my favorite thing on the menu other than calamari.
- [28:37]
B
Tell me what's in a calamari salad?
- [28:39]
A
I want to say it's like a Thai salad, so it's like a lot of shaved vegetables.
- [28:43]
B
Oh, yum. Yeah, that sounds good.
- [28:45]
A
Yeah, it's so good.
- [28:46]
B
So because he's dead throughout the story, for the most part, Matthew is kind of a background character, but he is also sort of the key connector between Hollis and Gigi in all this drama.
- [29:01]
A
Yes.
- [29:01]
B
And in my mind, from what I know, not a great guy. Not a great guy. He lies about being married and having a kid for a long period of time. Obviously, he's having the affair. How did you feel about the ending when it suddenly revealed that he called and broke it off with Gigi? And actually, he did love Hollis and he wants to work on his marriage, and he turned around. I just felt like I don't know if it was meant to absolve him of what he did. I think it was more for Hollis and for her and Gigi's relationship than for him, but it kind of just felt like I don't know if that's the choice he would make, knowing what I know about that man.
- [29:38]
A
Oh, I don't think it redeemed him for me as a character at all. Like, I wasn't like, oh, he wasn't such a bad guy after all. Like, he was still a bad gu. Maybe let Hollis have some peace. So I was of two minds. On the one hand, I want to throw the Book across the room when she was like, no, Gigi, you can stay the night. And, like, I'm not going to tell anyone about this. I'm sorry. If I were in this situation and my three other best friends were there and the man who my husband cheated on me was there, I would be like, read her for filthy. Like, absolutely dogpile her. You know, maybe don't tell the daughter. But, like, I would have been like, get her. So that is not how my brain operates, however, and I wish they hit this a little harder in the story. When I think about it, the idea of preserving Matthew's legacy for the sake of her daughter and for the sake of her relationship with her daughter, like, it is something that I could picture happening. I do think that I still would have taken Gigi up on leaving that night. I would not have let her stay the night and stay at that dinner and continue to eat and drink my food and wine. But, like, I ultimately did kind of understand why she didn't blow it up.
- [30:55]
B
Okay, how do you feel? I have a question to ask you, but it is a tiny spoiler from the show. It's just a little bit of a detail they change, and I want to know how you feel about it versus this version of things.
- [31:09]
A
Tell me. I mean, I feel like all these people are going to watch the show.
- [31:13]
B
It's very small, but I do think it changes some dynamics. So in the show, it's revealed that Gigi and Matthew meet in the airport, but instead of him not telling her about being married and having a kid, he tells her immediately. Oh. So I haven't gone further. But my assumption is that even though she knows that they have the affair, which I think makes her look worse and Matthew look better, I don't know that there's better. Sure. But, I mean, it's like, what circle of hell do you want immediately? And I know it's true. It's like it's splitting hairs, but I think it's an interesting shift in dynamic because I think it makes Gigi's presence at the house weirdly more complicated, you know?
- [32:00]
A
Yeah.
- [32:01]
B
Because she knew from day one, and it's not like she didn't know. And then she fell in love, and then she was in this thing. It was like she knew. And I don't know exactly where it's going to go next. So I could be misreading this. And it also kind of, in a way, I don't know. From what I've seen so far, I feel like they're trying to make Matthew look even less bad in the show.
- [32:23]
A
Interesting.
- [32:24]
B
Which I'm really curious to see what they do with it. But what do you think about that slight shift? Does that make any difference to you? Does that change anything?
- [32:32]
A
I agree with what you just said about it. It makes Gigi much more culpable and her coming to the house much more of an agent of chaos move than that she had been deluded for. I can't remember how long it was, like nine months or something. Had already fallen in love with him and then found out.
- [32:48]
B
Yeah.
- [32:49]
A
Okay, wait. I want to talk about the show, but before we get to the show, tell me, would you be interested in hosting your own five star weekend and who would you invite?
- [33:01]
B
No. This sounds so stressful to me for the same reason that having a large bridal party sounds stressful to me.
- [33:08]
A
Oh, I feel like because of interpersonal drama.
- [33:11]
B
I just think it's a lot of like being on edge. Like, will people get along? Are they going to like each other? Or like, oh, they didn't like each other in the past or, you know, I've vented about one person to the other person or, I don't know, just things that happen when you're, you're friends for people with decades and decades and you get older. I mean, I think I love the idea of hosting a gigantic party with all those people, just five in like a. There's a line in the show that's like, I'm on a three day dinner party with strangers, a bunch of women I don't know. And I was like, yeah, that, that makes me very anxious. But I do think that the idea of it is very sweet and it could be great. But the anxiety I feel at the idea would probably prevent me from doing it. What about you?
- [33:57]
A
So I have a different anxiety, but ultimately feel the same that I would probably not want to do it. And my anxiety is around picking who I would choose for each era.
- [34:08]
B
Is your anxiety that you would have trouble picking the perfect person or that people would get their feelings hurt?
- [34:13]
A
People would get their feelings hurt. And also who would I pick if I had to singularly choose one person? You know, especially like, I'm thinking about my 20s, so it's like my college friends plus I moved to San Francisco for two years and then I moved to New York and I met Grace and it's like, oh God, like I have a list a mile long for who my possible friend for my 20s could be.
- [34:39]
B
That's a good thing.
- [34:40]
A
No, it's a good thing. And also a Lot of them are really dear to me. So it's not as if those relationships have fizzled in a way where feels like Hollis had almost, like, stopped talking to Tatum, where it was like, oh, like, who cares? Not who cares if you hurt Tatum? But it was like, oh, like, I'll invite her. But, like, it wouldn't have been a slight if she wasn't invited, you know?
- [35:03]
B
Yeah. Do you have anyone from any given era that you're like, it has to be this person, or is there sort of multiple people in contention for every single one?
- [35:13]
A
I'm really torn on who I would choose.
- [35:17]
B
Okay. I mean, again, a great problem to have.
- [35:19]
A
Like, even my childhood friends that I'm not in touch with, I'm like, oh, do I pick my neighbor friend who I was best friends with? Do I pick my best friend from school? I moved during high school? Do I pick my best friend from, like, the latter part of high school? Like, I don't know.
- [35:35]
B
Yeah, I think the other. And I was thinking about this more as I watched the show, but the other really complicated thing is that I think the further back you go, the less like your friends you are naturally. And so you have this wide array of people who ultimately are nothing like each other probably at all. And I guess that's, you know, that's the gist of the book in a lot of ways, but that's complicated. And again, that's why I think bridal parties are not good.
- [36:03]
A
Here's a question for you.
- [36:05]
B
Yes.
- [36:06]
A
Who's your friend that you don't know from the Internet that you would invite?
- [36:10]
B
Oh, weirdly, I feel like there's a lot of people this could be. Oh, my gosh. Maybe. Let me go through my text really quick. I feel like there's someone that I've texted that I haven't met in person. Do you have someone in mind for this?
- [36:26]
A
I am constantly thinking about how I can catfish Annabelle Monahan into being my good friend and my pseudo mom. Like, maybe her.
- [36:34]
B
Definitely her. Definitely her. And you guys have met. That is such a fun question. Maybe Ella Berman, the author. Like, we've kind of become friends, and we, like, zoom every couple months and talk about writing stuff, but we've never hung out, and she just seems so cool and she has no taste until
- [36:51]
A
you find out that she had an affair with Jake.
- [36:55]
B
Wouldn't blame Jake. She's great. But no, maybe her. I don't know. Okay. But honestly, there are so many people that are just slipping my mind who I've been friends with on the Internet for like decades upon decades at this. Well, that's pushing it. 10, 15 years since like Tumblr days. That I would love to see. That's an idea. Just invite all your Internet friends and have them in a house and see what happens. You know, someone else that I would actually really like to hang out with more but cannot is or have not because they live far away is Katherine Brit, who is a listener and has been to my reading retreat and the book fair that I did that you attended. Becca.
- [37:40]
A
Oh yeah.
- [37:40]
B
And she is so funny anytime I have hung out with her. And by the way, there are so many people like this. But she came to mind just because every time I hang out with her I'm like, I would like to hang out with her more in real life. Not possible. Anytime she posts a meme or a joke in the BFF group, I'm like hilarious. Same with Marielle and Megan, who are best friends that met on one of the group trips. I did them. Also hilarious. Great. So those are three people. There are probably more than I'm forgetting and I already feel bad about not remembering, but those are three or four people that come to mind. Again, I guess I have a problem of choosing people.
- [38:16]
A
See, it's hard.
- [38:17]
B
It's more like Internet friends are harder than childhood friends. I'm like, yeah, of course there was like two. I was in a small group by myself.
- [38:24]
A
Yeah, but don't you feel like you might slight one?
- [38:26]
B
Yeah, maybe they would have to be sort of like a package deal. It would have to be the two of them.
- [38:31]
A
So now you're at a six star weekend.
- [38:33]
B
It would be like 35 people and I would be just anxiety ridden in the corner eating dip.
- [38:40]
A
We don't want that. But what I do want is to talk about the show. So let's take an ad break because I also want to talk about Sol de Janeiro and then I want to talk about the adaptation.
- [38:54]
B
Like we have already said, this episode is sponsored by Sol de Janeiro, the Brazilian inspired self care brand we are partnering with for our Summer of Soul. Because what goes better together in your beach bag than one of their perfume mist or their signature boom boom cream? And a really great read. I actually keep a Sol de Janeiro perfume mist in my entryway and in my car. So I can always smell good when I'm on the go. And this is particularly handy when it comes to the fact that I often go to the gym and then stop by the thrift store on the way home. And you know, I don't want to be browsing and smelling bad. So I love having that perfumest in my glove box or my center console. We are so excited to be bringing our community together all summer long with Sol de Janeiro with three bonus beachery book clubs right here on the podcast in person events. We are headed to Chicago next week and we are so excited to see some of you, by the way, and product giveaways.
- [39:52]
A
So you obviously got the memo because you're here listening to our first of three bonus beach Read book club episodes. And if you want more of this, we'll be discussing one and only by Maureen Goo, which is a love triangle romance with a touch of Korean mysticism in our August 20th episode. And then for our September 17th book club episode, we're reading the Parisian Heist by Joe Piazza, which is a dual timeline mystery featuring an all female art heist in the present timeline set against the historical story of the woman who made Vincent Van Go famous.
- [40:28]
B
And like we said, we are hitting the road this summer. We are coming to Chicago on July 22nd. Tickets sold out very fast. Thank you all for all of your support. We're so excited to see you. And there's more info to come on events in Miami in August and New York City in September. You can always head to batonpaper podcast.com summerofsoul for the latest info and updates. And we are so excited to bring our community together this summer for more of what we love. Discussing great books and obsessing over our favorite beauty products. Happy Summer of Soul.
- [41:08]
A
Okay, so the show. So I felt very special that we got screeners of the show. I realized that it all comes out on the same day. So by the time people are listening to this, they could have watched the whole thing. I only watched one episode. I didn't have time. I was too down to the wire last night. And you watched two episodes, right?
- [41:25]
B
Yes.
- [41:26]
A
Okay. My first reaction to it was give this casting person a raise. I thought the casting was pitch perfect across everyone. Every single person felt so on point. Darcy Cardin as Brooke was. I found Brooke annoying in the book. I did not love her. Darcy Cardin made it so charming and so believable and was so true to the character. I thought Chloe Sevignier was such an inspired and different choice from how Tatum was described in the book, but I found totally believable. Oh my God. I internally screamed when Judy Greer was Elektra Underwood. Oh my God, I can't wait to see her beat.
- [42:08]
B
That surprised me too.
- [42:10]
A
Such a bitch to everyone.
- [42:12]
B
She had some great lines too. Very funny.
- [42:15]
A
Oh, my God, it was so perfect. And even though Jennifer Garner is maybe quite different from how Hollis is described in the book, you know, Jennifer Garner seems like such a tiny person versus Hollis, seemed to be struggling more with body image and to be living in a larger body. I don't know if she was plus sized or just mid sized. But anyway, I thought that Jennifer Garner really captured, I thought the scene with Jenna Bush Hager where she says, how do you not cry when you're chopping the onions? And she was like, well, my husband just died. So I cried everything. And then how, like, mortified she was to have said it. Like, there was something so charming about Jennifer Garner in this role that I was just, like, instantly on her side.
- [42:58]
B
She's such a good actor. But I have to say that I cried, I think, in the first or second episode.
- [43:05]
A
Where did you cry?
- [43:07]
B
When she was talking about Caroline and she was saying she hates me and, you know, we were in a bad place. I just wanted her to have the good memories. It was something just about the emotion and how she was talking that really just made me tear up. But I think that's like Jennifer Garner's skill as an actor. She's just so tender and, like, real and vulnerable. And I think the show, even if you are not an Ellen person, if you're listening for some reason and you're not an Ellen person or you haven't read it or this didn't work for you or whatever, I think you should give the show a try because so far I. I just love it. I'm really surprised with how much I like it so far. And I think to your point, it's because of the casting. Like, Chloe 7 as Tatum is an inspired choice. I don't know who pitched that. When I heard that, I was like, actually when I was kind of trying to pair up the characters and the actors because I didn't know who was who. I was like, I guess Chloe is Tatum. But, like, I don't really see it. Watching the show, I'm like, oh, my God, this is brilliant. It's so good. And also, Chloe Sevigny is so cool even playing someone else. So cool.
- [44:15]
A
I saw an interview she did where she was saying that she had a lot of reservations about doing this because it's, you know, less art house, less cool than what she would usually do. And then she said what ultimately made her decide is that she wanted to have something that her mom would like that she was in.
- [44:33]
B
Yeah, I mean, she's really doing something with the role so far, I'm only a couple episodes in. And I did also really like the Jenna Bush Hager cameo. Although my only note is that I think anyone who's watched any portion of the Today show knows that there's no chance that Jenna would not have cried on screen in that scenario.
- [44:53]
A
Cause she's.
- [44:53]
B
She cries a lot. And I think it would have gotten her. I think it would have.
- [44:57]
A
Well, so I remember, I think you told me this, that at Jenna's book festival last year, she said that she was working on something with Ellen, like producing something with Ellen. And so when I got to the credits, and the credits are really beautiful, by the way. Like, the design on the credits is really, really nice. I watched the entire thing with, like, a magnifying glass to be like, is Jenna Bush Hager involved in this? And I don't think she is. So now I'm like, what is the one that she's doing with Ellen?
- [45:24]
B
I mean, it must be another one of her titles. I can't wait. A close friendship. For sure.
- [45:29]
A
I can't wait for the Ellen cinematic Universe. I was really excited. A few years ago, there was supposed to be an adaptation of the Winter in Paradise series where Ellen Pompeo from Grey's Anatomy was gonna play Irene, who was the main character in that series. And I think that fell apart. But I was like, oh, my gosh, that would have been perfect.
- [45:50]
B
Well, I think this will do very well, this show. Somehow.
- [45:53]
A
I think so, too.
- [45:54]
B
It really is just surprisingly good. Surprisingly funny. All the little changes they've made, I loved. Like, in the book, Hollis calls Caroline darling, which it always kind of struck me as very, like, darling. Don't.
- [46:07]
A
There was a waspy remove from some of their interactions, and I feel like Jennifer Garner really warmed up Hollis.
- [46:14]
B
I mean, maybe this is just what you can do on a show versus a book. But there. There are just so many little things. Like, even in the first episode, Hollis and Caroline are on a phone call, and Caroline is, are you eating mustard straight from the jar again? I was like, that is. First of all, who's doing that? Have you ever known someone to do that? But then I was like, oh. Immediately it gives her a little bit more weirdness that I think she kind of needed maybe. Or at least in the TV version, I think is necessary. And. Yeah, I don't know. What are your other thoughts from the first episode?
- [46:48]
A
Well, I was thrilled that it was actually shot on Nantucket versus the Perfect Couple, which was. The previous Ellen adaptation was filmed on Cape Cod, and I think they had some exteriors on Nantucket, but this was fully filmed there. And I think the cast was there, I don't know, for a few months. And so I really loved that. And, like, there's the moment where she's in her car and she's driving through town, and I think you see either Mitchell's Book Corner or Nantucket Book Works. And I was like, oh, my God, like, what a great little nod to the book. And, like, the Ellen Universe. I loved the house.
- [47:23]
B
Oh, my gosh. I mean, in this outline, I just have some quick thoughts from the show, and one of them is just the house.
- [47:30]
A
Like, it all caps stunning.
- [47:32]
B
Like, oh, my God, I was dying.
- [47:35]
A
And I loved that part of the book, too, but seeing it visually was really something.
- [47:41]
B
Oh, and she's giving them the tour and going to the Twist and the cottage. They call the twist and the beach and the music. Oh, my go. So many good sound bites of Dreams by the Cranberries, and it's just very vibey. It's fun.
- [47:58]
A
I also really liked Druann's changes in the adaptation, and I think that Regina hall just brings a lot of, again, warmth to that character, who is a little bit cold in the book. And I'm really curious to see where that plotline goes, because they changed. She's an agent for a golf star in the book, and now it's a soccer star who I'm gathering is dating an NBA player. So I'm really curious to see how that turns out. But I really loved when we got to see the, like, the viral video of it. And, like, I could picture something like this happening in real life.
- [48:36]
B
Yeah. Yes. Everything felt a little more. I don't know, maybe it was just, like, again, easier to film to fit into a series, but everything felt a little more like it made sense to me in a way that was satisfying. I don't know, even love the. They've shifted it slightly that Caroline is taking pictures just for fun. She doesn't come back just for the weekend. She happens to come back and they're there. That made more sense to me, too. I don't know.
- [49:00]
A
I disagree with you. Although it's such a small part of the adaptation that I don't think it will irk me or change my opinion in any way. But I liked that there was more antagonism and that she was there against her will because her mom paid her. It seems like they're setting her up for that. Maybe she. And I've only watched the first episode, so you know, spoiler for just that it seems like maybe they're setting her up that she dropped out of college and hasn't told Hollis. There was, like, one comment that Drew Ann made about, like, you need a hobby. And I'm like, oh, I just. I like that less. Like, I thought it was interesting that she was having this affair with her mentor, which, you know, she's 20 and thinks is. And he's kind of just a sleazeball. And I liked how that mirrored her father, too.
- [49:44]
B
Yeah. I think there are a lot of little changes, but I read an interview with Jennifer Garner and Ellen, and one of them, I can't remember who was saying there are some changes, but thematically, it's very. It's the same. And I think that's very true. Like, instead of the guy she's into being Tatum's son, it's Tatum's daughter's boyfriend that she's into, which makes more sense to me. Oh, I don't know if you've gotten there.
- [50:10]
A
I haven't.
- [50:10]
B
Sorry. That's fine. Well, it's. I don't mind now. It's not a spoiler, but I think it's. It's just little things that I think really work for the show. Not to say they didn't work in the book, but they're really working for me in the show as well. So I'm excited to see what happens.
- [50:23]
A
I was really curious about who was behind this, because I hadn't heard of them before. And it's also a woman named Becca, although she spells it B, E, K, A, H. Becca Runstetter. And so she's a playwright. She seems very cool. She's a playwright. But then she also worked on this Is Us, and I was like, oh, the this Is Us DNA crossover with Ellen. I'm like, I can see this.
- [50:48]
B
Yes. I think what's maybe most impressive to me about the show so far is that there's such a chance that this could be cheesy. And to me, it does not feel that way at all. No, it feels two episodes in, not even a little.
- [51:01]
A
I mean, the acting is so incredible. It feels like they really sunk money into this. Like, I think we've seen a lot of lightning in a bottle with off campus with heated rivalry, where it's unknowns that it just happens to really work. And this is obviously a very known cast, and it was seemingly a very expensive production, but it feels really thoughtful. It seems really considered instead of like, we're just throwing all these random people in here because we could get them. And like, I don't know, like, it almost brings me back to the big little lies of like, big budget, name y cast. But, like, worked really well.
- [51:39]
B
Yeah, like you were saying, there's so much thought in this script. Like, the humor is really smart and subtle, but when it works, it really works.
- [51:48]
A
You had this line in here from Druanne where she says, nantucket's a white person. Clam Island. And then she goes to her boss and she's like, he's probably been there. I was dying.
- [52:01]
B
Yeah, I laughed out loud a couple times at that. And then another line that I really liked was Hollis, Jennifer Garner's character, saying about Gigi, she's not going to harvest our organs. She's British. And it was kind of this, like, throwaway line. But it was so funny. And I don't know, it just really made me giggle. So there's a lot of, like, lines like that that are just smart and they work and it feels really thoughtful. And I think, like you said, there's a lot of work and money and effort and. Yeah, it just seems like all the actors are really giving everything they have. And you do not always see that with an adaptation.
- [52:36]
A
You know what makes me preemptively sad, though, is this seems like destined to only be a miniseries. Could they do like a season two of this?
- [52:46]
B
Well, so that's the interesting thing. In this interview that I read through with Ellen and Jennifer, she said, like, it's really up to the viewers if we have a season two, you know, so if you really like it, make sure you watch to the last episode. Cause that's what counts. And I was like, oh, okay. I don't really know what would happen if maybe they just have it every. They have the five star weekend every year. Sure, that could be the case, I guess.
- [53:12]
A
I mean, I guess they could split them up and do like an individual ensemble thing. And you could get Hollis falling in love with Jack. You could get Brooke exploring being gay and divorcing her husband. I don't really know what Druann's plotline would be because that got resolved.
- [53:27]
B
Speaking of Jack, this is unrelated. Huge Timothy Oliphant fan here. I think he is great in everything he does. I don't think he gets enough love, but I just want to say that I think he's excellent.
- [53:37]
A
I have less feelings on Timothy Olyphant. Nothing to add.
- [53:40]
B
Oh my gosh, nothing to detract. I am a gosh Santa Clarita diet fan. Netflix canceled that too soon. And him and Drew Barrymore. Just the weirdest, wackiest show. Anyway, it's another show, but I think he's great. I think he's great in this, too. Much more interesting than I expected.
- [54:00]
A
I really liked him in another book adaptation, which is this Is Where I Leave youe.
- [54:04]
B
Oh, I don't think I watched that.
- [54:06]
A
The book is by Jonathan Tropper, and it's about a family with a lot of siblings sitting shiva for the father's death. And all the kids return home and all this drama comes up. And I think him and Tina Fey were like, a couple that had, like, a near miss, if I'm remembering correctly.
- [54:26]
B
Did you ever watch Catch and Release from the romantic comedy, like Early Aughts with him and Jennifer Garner again?
- [54:33]
A
I did, but I don't remember it that well. I don't think I saw it more than once.
- [54:37]
B
I just remember fly fishing. That's all I got. But they clearly have chemistry.
- [54:42]
A
Yeah.
- [54:43]
B
Well, if anyone is like, I need more podcast content about this show and this book. I am really happy to bring you the news that Ellen is also doing a companion podcast with the show where she'll have a bunch of the actors on and discussing, you know, I guess, more of what we just talked about here. But they're the experts, so I think they said it's coming out, like, weekly.
- [55:04]
A
That's interesting. I've never listened to a companion podcast, but I will say I cannot get enough of Ellen's other podcasts, book, Speech and Beyond. I think she has a really interesting rapport, especially with writers, because she's so well respected by her peers that I think they give her more interesting conversation nuggets because they see her as a peer, as, like, at the top of her game. And yeah, I wonder how that will work with the actors, knowing that they have the relationship of, like, she wrote the source material. Like, I think she'll get really interesting things out of them.
- [55:37]
B
Yeah, I'm definitely gonna listen to the Chloe Savigne episode for sure. Cause I'm just so curious about what her creative process was like.
- [55:46]
A
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Maybe I'll listen to this too.
- [55:49]
B
Well, this was a lot of fun. I'm glad I read this. I'm glad we could talk about it. I'm definitely gonna watch the rest of the show. I'm gonna read more Ellen books as well. And a huge thank you again to our Summer of Soul partner, Sol de Janeiro, for sponsoring this whole episode. A quick reminder to go to batonpaperpodcast.com summerofsoul for all the info you need for for more upcoming bonus book club episodes and those live events we mentioned. We will see you next month for more beach reading. Goodness.
- [56:19]
A
Bye.