A (3:12)

Yeah, you're like the king's footman.

B (3:14)

Exactly. So I'm like announcing Winnie, first of her name, royal dog of the Hudson Valley, so on and so forth, and goes on for a while. And then Jake will either clap or at this point, it's been going on for a couple of weeks now, so.

C (3:30)

I'll just ignore me.

B (3:31)

But every day, this brings me such joy. And I did it this morning and I just thought, yeah, that's the best part of my day, a lot of days. So anyway, I suggest having a full dialogue and theatrical event with your dogs.

A (3:46)

That'S so pure and wholesome.

B (3:47)

It's really delightful. I like to think that she likes it too, but she's probably just confused. Like, why is she talking to me more than usual, you know, what's your high?

A (3:57)

My high, very fitting for this episode, actually, is that I'm having a very bookish week. I don't know if it's that there's just more new releases in fall than there are kind of in the peak of summer or I don't know, people are traveling over summer, so there's fewer events. But I having such a bookish week. On Tuesday, I went to a launch event for my friend Iman Hariri Kia and her new book, Female Fantasy, which you have already read and talked about on the podcast and you said you really enjoyed. I'm very excited to read it. I guess it's kind of two books in one, because there's the contemporary rom com aspect of it. But then there's a book within a book as well that's a mermaid romantasy, which from the quick little remark she gave, sounds very fun and kind of like a tropey ode to genre. So I'm very excited to read that. And it was also the launch party. Her book is coming out from a new imprint called called Cosmo Reads with Cosmopolitan magazine, which. It's a partnership that makes so much sense. I was like, why don't other magazine publishers in this decline of magazine publishing, like, why haven't they pivoted to books?

B (5:11)

Yeah. It's so smart. I'm excited to see what they do next.

A (5:15)

So it was a very fun party. I got to see some people in the book world who I know. I got to meet some new people, so it was very fun. Of course, they served Cosmopolitans, so. So I was a little tipsy because I hadn't had dinner yet. And then yesterday, I went out to dinner with three friends who I went to college with, all of whom have landed in writing or writing adjacent careers or have some type of writing pursuit. And we try to do a quarterly dinner. It is for some reason that is kind of lost to time. It is called the White Lotus. Writing Club has nothing to do with the White Lotus.

B (5:52)

Oh.

A (5:52)

So that was very fun. And to get to hear what was new in their writing lives. And then tonight, I'm so excited. I am going to an event at the Strand, which is Lily King in conversation with Anne Napolitano for her new book, which is also our October book club pick, Heart the Lover. I'm so excited. I ran into Christy, who does events at the Strand and at this party that I was at on Tuesday night, and I told her I was coming to this, and she was like, oh, find me before and I'll take you back to the green room. And Olivia, I reacted as if she'd, like, offered to introduce me to Oprah. I was like, I will not be able to keep it together. Like, I will embarrass myself.

B (6:34)

That's so exciting.

A (6:35)

I feel. I don't know if it'll happen or not, but I feel so, like, I will just word vomit. Lily King about how much I loved this book.

B (6:43)

I would do that about hella beautiful within Napolitano. So I totally understand. I think fangirling is warranted.

A (6:49)

I agree. So, yeah, just having a very fun bookish week.

B (6:53)

Very fun. And the perfect weather to go with it.

D (6:56)

Yes.

A (6:56)

It feels very. This weather feels very academic. Does that make sense?

B (7:01)

It does, yes. Yes. I'm staring at a lot of, like, very yellow leaves. Feels like I should have a book bag swung over one shoulder.

A (7:09)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (7:10)

Absolutely.

A (7:11)

What about on the low side? Do you have a low?

B (7:13)

I do not really have a low. Do you?

A (7:16)

Yeah. I feel like I'm dancing on this precipice of am I getting sick or is the weather just changing? And I feel like every morning I kind of wake up and feel icky. But then by maybe around, like, Three or four, it's burned off. Then I'm like, no, I don't think I'm getting sick. So I don't know, maybe it's just that my apartment's cold in the morning.

B (7:36)

A lot of stuff is going around right now. So, you know, drink water, stay healthy.

A (7:41)

I'm gonna try.

B (7:42)

I don't know why this sounds like a PSA I'm gonna try situation has really given me a new personality. But I hope you, I hope you feel better.

A (7:51)

Thank you. Well, why don't we take a quick ad break and then get into the meat of this episode.

B (8:01)

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. October 10th was World Mental Health Day, which makes this month, but I think every month a good time to say thank you to your therapist. I personally cannot imagine a tougher job in the world than being a therapist. And I know, I am so grateful to mine for all the ways that she has helped me find myself. And like myself, I think everyone should have a therapist like her in their life. And if you do, just consider this a reminder to thank them.

A (8:28)

But if you're looking to find your perfect therapist right now, BetterHelp can absolutely help you. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews.

B (8:51)

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A (9:15)

Okay, Olivia, so we have four amazing debut novelists with us today and I thought this would be really interesting. We're talking to each of them about what has been a surprising aspect of their debut experience. Because I feel like we have talked so much about the process and the nuts and bolts of getting published as a first time author vis a vis our own experiences and also talking to experts for the How a Book Gets Made series. But I don't think we've spent as much time talking about the emotional side of it. So very interesting to hear the different insights that each of these authors have. But I thought it was only fair, since we're asking them to share something vulnerable about their debut experience, that we do the same. So to kick Us off. What was something that surprised you about your own debut experience?

B (10:05)

I think the biggest thing that surprised me was how much I enjoyed it. And I think maybe partially that's because we have the podcast. And so part of the debut experience and going on tour included meeting so many people who listen to the podcast. And I love all the behind the scenes stuff so much that I. When I thought about the book being released and that point and celebrating it in person or people reading it, the only thing I could think about beforehand was just, oh, that makes me anxious because people aren't going to like it and I'm going to have to deal with their reactions and criticisms or questions that I don't know how to answer or questions about, you know, plot things that I wish I had done differently. And all of that I think is part of it. But it just was so wonderful and lovely. And I learned, you know, through a lot of highs and lows, I think, because there are a lot of emotional highs and a lot of emotional lows, I think I learned that like this is part of the process too. Like the behind the scenes stuff, the writing, the promotion, pre pub, I love all of that. But I can also survive the other part of it too, and I can love that as well. So I don't really know if that answers it succinctly, but I think it was just that there is a lot about it, that the book is now totally out of your control. The perception of it is totally out of your control, but there's some freedom in that as well, even if it is scary.

A (11:34)

I remember in 2024 when we did our goals episode, you had some very anticipatory goals about your book coming out and you were like, I'm going to try to. I can't remember the exact wording of it, but like it was as if you expected it to be unpleasant and we're trying to like counterbalance that. So I'm glad to hear that. It was, you know, whether because of that preparation or just because you misjudged what it would feel like that it was a positive experience.

B (12:02)

Yes, it was. I think to me it's that it felt like the equivalent of sitting in front of a room full of people, which it's literally that sometimes, but and not being able to know exactly what they think, you know, like having to sort of like read between the lines of what people say to you about the book and did they really like it and were they really just saying that and why did they use that word, you know, and it's like how I am sort of in a lot of interactions, I think, because of social anxiety. But, yeah, I just. I learned to let go and just be grateful for the good stuff, I think, even though sometimes that's hard. What about you?

A (12:39)

Is it okay if I have two?

B (12:42)

Sure.

A (12:43)

Okay.

E (12:43)

Because I have.

B (12:43)

I think I just said, like, 12, so go for it.

A (12:46)

I have one that's slightly negative, but I don't want to leave it on that. So I also have a positive one.

B (12:52)

Well, I was actually gonna do a negative and a positive, so I. I'm really curious to hear both of yours.

A (12:58)

So on the negative side, this makes so much intuitive sense, but truly did not occur to me. I feel like the moment you debut, you go from being the outside chance. Slimmest odds, like, go, you. You've accomplished this thing. So many people wanna publish a book that you've been chosen. You've gotten an agent, you found a publisher, your book is coming out. It's so celebratory. And you're like, oh, my gosh, you have the. What is it? From the Devil Wears Prada. It's like the job a million girls would kill for. You're like, oh, my gosh, I'm so special, and this is so unlikely, and I have won the lotto, basically. And you go from being a big fish in the pond of people who want to publish books, and then you immediately flip and you become a small fish in the pond of authors. And I found that to be jarring, that it was like, you go from this very celebratory, how lucky am I? I've accomplished this? To then being like the freshman in high school where you're like, oh, I'm the little guy. Does that resonate at all?

B (14:07)

That feeling didn't really hit me until, I would say, recently when I thought about the logistics and improbability of continuing to publish books.

A (14:19)

Okay.

B (14:19)

Like, I was so just in love with every single part of what was happening that I didn't stop to think, like, it will actually not necessarily get easier from here. It will get increasingly harder unless you become, like, you know, the next big thing, you know, which couldn't happen till maybe your third or fourth or fifth or sixth book. But you have to keep writing to get to that point. And if the. The books that come before that aren't that, then it all gets hard. And I didn't really think about that at the time, but I definitely hear you. And I. And I understand that feeling. It just came for me much, much later. And it was more of like a, oh, wow, this is such a hard industry to survive in.

A (15:01)

It definitely doesn't feel like the type of career where you get hired for the job and unless you massively fuck up, like you're not going to get fired. Like a standard middle management corporate job where it's like, oh, wow, your job is on the line at all times.

B (15:16)

Yes, yes. And you can, you can be the most hard working creative, delivered on what you said you'd deliver on and more person and it just doesn't matter if the, if your books don't sell. It just doesn't matter. So yeah, just a little positivity for.

A (15:33)

Well, that's why I have a positive one to bring us.

B (15:36)

Yeah, bring us back up. Bring us back up.

A (15:38)

Which was another thing that surprised and delighted me was how many people in my life and from different phases of my life publishing a book brought out of the woodwork. Like, first of all, a lot of my closest friends who are not readers read the book, which I was so honored by. But then also people from college, people from past jobs, peripheral friends, like parents of friends, people read the book and they reached out to me to tell me that they were so proud of me and it was so lovely. Like people I never would have expected to read my book did and like there was something so emotional about like the time travel aspect of it and getting to hear from people where I'm like, pretty sure this person has no. Has totally forgotten about me.

B (16:31)

That's so nice. That's very nice.

A (16:34)

Yeah. Well, why don't we take another ad break and get into these mini interviews.

B (16:43)

This episode is sponsored by Uncommon Goods. Every single year, I tell myself that I am going to start holiday shopping early instead of waiting until the very last minute. So here I am today, reminding both myself and all of you that shopping early for all of your holiday needs is the way to go. The last minute rushing does not feel good and the holidays are already stressful enough. So if you're looking to pick out some gifts in the near future, Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress free and joyful. With thousands of one of a kind gifts you can't find anywhere else, Uncommon.

A (17:19)

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B (17:47)

One of my favorite past purchases from Uncommon Goods was this coffee table book that I got from my dad, who is one of the hardest people to shop for that I have ever known. And it's this beautiful book which is filled with all of these newspapers, paper articles over decades and decades all about his favorite football team. And they have these for like every football team. By the way, if you have a very difficult to shop for man in your life who enjoys sports, it was great. And every time I go to their house, it's sitting there in the coffee table. So I, I guess he liked it. There are lots of unique gifts just like this to shop for on Uncommon Goods, so shop early, have fun, and cross some names off your list today. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com BOP that's UncommonGoods.com BOP for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods we're all out of the ordinary. We are so excited to have Natalie with us today. Natalie Guerrero is a Dominican and Puerto Rican writer from New York. Her writing has been featured in publications such as Literary Hub, Electric Literature, Byline, Goop, and Blavity. My Train Leaves at Three is her first novel. Welcome.

D (19:02)

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

A (19:05)

We're so excited to have you here because your name has come up on this podcast before, but you've never been here. If listeners remember, for our book preview episode that we did in June, My train leaves at 3 was one of Morgan Pager's enthusiastic recommendations.

D (19:23)

I love Morgan, and I was so excited about her book, which I know also debuted this year. And I was so delighted to hear her talk about my book on your podcast. So this feels like a full circle moment.

B (19:34)

Can you give us the pitch for your novel? Just to reacquaint our listeners with what it's about?

D (19:40)

Yes, 100%. My train leaves at 3 follows a young woman named Siomara Sanchez who is kind of reeling after the loss of her sister. So she's deep stuck in her grief and. And she is simultaneously trying to understand if she can live the life that she's always wanted to, which is to be a performer on Broadway. And so the main question of the novel is can you kind of move forward without moving on or vice versa. And also if you can build a new, shiny life without losing kind of a truth of your old one. And so it's kind of like My love letter to my sisters, but also really has grief at the heart of it. And also I think for anyone who has had like a big wild dream and has felt grounded in some way or another.

A (20:35)

And this book takes place in the theater world. And is that a world that you have been in personally or is this something that was a deep research hole that you fell into for this book?

D (20:45)

No, totally. First of all, I'm a musical theater nerd through and through. When I was a kid, I was a child performer, so I did Broadway shows. I was in the Lion King.

C (20:54)

Oh, wow.

A (20:55)

Who were you with? The Lion King?

D (20:56)

I was young Nala.

A (20:58)

I feel so starstruck.

D (21:00)

That's amazing moment. Yeah, it was really insane and I loved every minute of it. And at the same time, I was really deeply inspired by, like, what the idea of performance will do to a person. People have gifts and love their art. And sometimes I wonder what is the line and what is the difference between making art because it is a gift that you want to give someone versus making art because you want to be seen and validated? Those are two very different things. And so I also really, as Xiomara kind of was born in the book, I felt like musical theater was a perfect place for her to kind of play all those questions out.

B (21:36)

On to the question of the hour, which is, what is the one thing that surprised you about your debut experience.

D (21:43)

That the publishing industry moves so quickly? I am not 100% sure what I was expecting, but it was quite an emotional ride. Right. Like, you work on this book for three years and the publishing industry publishes a new book every Tuesday. And so something that really shocked me was how quickly the experience kind of came and then also simultaneously how quickly the experience went. And then I was also kind of jarred by the fact that I felt that way. But it might not have been the way my readers were feeling because even now, months out from publication, I'm getting DMs, new DMs from people saying, oh, I read your book and I was curious about this. And so it's kind of interesting to feel that kind of separation and that I'm in a different moment than my readers are in. But then because of how quickly the process went, I really honed into this conversation I was having with my friend the other day, which is that being a writer and being an author are just two big separate things. And it made the experience and the speed at which the experience came made me even more excited to be a writer, because to be a writer is like Kind of like a day I'm having today, which is like I'm sort of under. I'm in my sweatpants, and after I get off here, I get to go write and think about big things in the world and ask myself a lot of questions. And I found that while I was on book tour. And every time I talk about my book, it's not as many questions anymore. It's much more conclusive. So I think that I was really excited in some way to find that the speed at which the machine of the publishing industry moves is really only worth it if you like the slow nature of what it means to be a writer and actually do the writing of a book, which luckily, I love. So it was the biggest surprise. And I don't know what I was expecting, but maybe something more steady, but not that.

A (23:45)

It's so interesting to hear you make a distinction between writer and author, which is something I've kind of just used as synonymous in my head. But you're so right that the acts are so different. And in being an author, I feel like there's perhaps much less room for nuance depending on what type of author you are. I think there are certain authors who are like, it's meant to be vague. Or draw your own conclusions.

E (24:12)

Yeah, totally.

D (24:13)

No, absolutely. And you want to have the right answer when someone asks you, like, a deep question about your book. But I have to say there are moments where I read a chapter from my novel and I think, oh, I have a new thought about it. You know, I have a new conclusion from it. And I. I think that that's why I love my book so much. And that's why I love reading generally so much, is you can read something on a different day and come up with something new.

A (24:38)

Have you read your own book since it came out?

D (24:42)

No, not in totality.

A (24:44)

Okay.

D (24:46)

But I will sometimes. I'm working on the feature film version of my novel right now.

A (24:50)

Oh, wow.

D (24:51)

And so as I've been working, I know I'm very excited, but as I've been working through writing the script, which is a whole other thing, I've been kind of revisiting some passages and realizing that so much of my subconscious was inside the pages of my book. So that's been really, like, the majority of the time I spend with the text. But, yeah, it always gives me something new to think about. And it makes me wonder if the things that I said in July when my book came out are still 100% true. I don't know. But I guess that is the beauty of giving a book into the world. It's like whatever conclusion you come up with at the end of the day with the novel is the conclusion.

A (25:36)

Well, it's also such a choose your own adventure experience, because as a reader, you also bring your own experiences and biases towards reading something, and you, you know, like, perhaps project your own experiences onto somebody else's book. So what one person takes from it might be completely different, which is something I've experienced with my own book. And I can't say that I was necessarily prepared for that.

D (25:59)

It was definitely, like, surprising, a hundred percent. It's like that quote that's like, you don't see things as they are, that you see things as you are. And it's. That's, I think, such a real experience when you're reading something. It's. You're going to. You're going to see the book through your specific lens, which can be incredibly beautiful, but also just opens a whole other can of worms. Like, opens a can of worms of what was intended versus what landed and. And who's to say what's right?

B (26:29)

Yeah, I think there's something kind of great about the space between when you're done working on a book and when it's out in the world because you get some distance from your deep emotional attachment to it. And I think that allows the space for other people to have their own experience with it. And for you to not be as sensitive isn't the right word necessarily. But at that point, you know, if you are in writer mode, you're probably already so emotionally attached to a different story. And I think there's something. So, like, that rhythm has always been very soothing to me. So there's something about it that I love.

D (27:04)

Yes, I completely agree with you. And I kept saying release week. Like, I really understand why they call it a book release, because I felt like. Like I was letting it go. I was like, yes, now it's in everyone else's hands. I have released it. It is no longer mine. And that is beautiful to me. And I wrote it so that people would read it. So I'm happy that it's landed in the place that it is now meant to be in.

B (27:28)

I totally agree.

A (27:30)

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us today. And I'm so excited for our listeners to hopefully pick up your novel. My train leaves at 3, but in the meantime, if they want to keep up with you, the person. Where is the best place to find you on the Internet?

D (27:45)

Yes, my Instagram. I share Books and pictures of my dog. And my substack is Books are for people. My Instagram handle is Natalie with two E's Guerrero.

A (27:58)

Okay, great. And we will link it in the show notes as well so people can find it more easily. Thank you so much for joining us today.

D (28:04)

Thank you for having me.

B (28:11)

We are so excited to have Laura with us today. Laura is a writer and art historian who builds stories within the gorgeous, strange, and sometimes terrifying art world. After receiving a master's degree in post war and contemporary art, she spent more than a decade working in commercial galleries, doing everything from art fair sales to condition reporting and logistics. Along the way, she witnessed more of that glittering world's dark underbelly than she thought possible. Laura currently lives in Colorado with her family. Tell Them youm Lied is her first novel. Welcome.

F (28:44)

Thank you so much, you guys. I'm so happy to be here. I love the podcast.

B (28:48)

Thank you.

A (28:49)

Well, to get us started, can you give us the pitch for your book?

F (28:54)

Sure, yeah. My book is about two young and ambitious artists who moved to New York city right before 9 11. And one of them goes missing and the other tries to find out what happened to her. And it's a dual timeline, so we jump back to their experiences in art school also, so we get to see a little bit about how they got to this point.

A (29:17)

And this has one of the most wild book flap copies I've ever seen.

F (29:24)

Yeah, I know.

A (29:25)

No, it's exciting. But I heard that even despite that I've read on your substack where you talk all about the publishing process, that there was a lot of resistance from publishing gatekeepers about a 911 novel. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

F (29:41)

Yeah, sure. My agent was totally on board with it from the beginning, but she did kind of warn me that it's a touchy subject. So I kind of went into it knowing that, like, we would get some pushback. But I did get a lot of. Well, before I even signed with my current agent, I got many, many rejections from when I was querying about could you rewrite this without the 911 elements? And stuff. But to me, that's where the story started in my brain. Like, the way that I kind of came up with it was this moment where everything is feeling very unstable in my protagonist life. And you know, I was in New York on 9 11. I was 23 years old. So I remember, like, kind of coming of age in that moment where you kind of are realizing that, like, none of this is really as straightforward and, like, permanent as you believed it was your whole childhood. And so to me, it seemed very much like I did not want to take that part of it away and just make it like a straightforward thriller. Like, to me, that added like, that undercurrent of like, instability and fear. So I really. And in fact, I said this in my subtack too, that I like, leaned into it a little bit more and I wrote like, more about the 911 stuff and less about. I mean, like, really it was so important to me to keep it. So CC was totally on board with it. My agent, CC Lira. And then we went out, we knew kind of that we would get pushback, and we did. We got several rejections, like when we were on subs, saying that, like, we weren't ready for this. Which is really interesting to me because, you know, I think that it's all sort of fair game. I mean, I'm thinking about our current political environment and like, everything else that goes on. It's like we should be able to take up almost everything. So it's interesting to me that. That there was pushback.

A (31:29)

One thing I'm fascinated about, obviously very different situation, is how Covid will be treated in the future. I feel like at the time when it was happening, I feel like most authors stayed away from it. But now I'm seeing maybe in the last year, more novels than I might expect with some type of COVID plotline. But I wonder kind of how it will age if it's like, okay, after this we never want to hear about it again, or if it will feel not true to life to talk about this time period without acknowledging it. So it's really fascinating that with 9 11, it feels like because there were so many 911 novels in the aftermath, that now, 24 years later in publishing, it's kind of like, oh, no, we don't want that.

F (32:16)

You know, I wonder about the COVID thing too, because I've noticed with the COVID novels or novels that have Covid storylines in them, as far as I've seen, they've all been from very well established authors. And this is my debut. So, like, maybe, you know, I think like Otessa Mux, she wrote my year of rest and relaxation, which is, you know, really leans into 911 too. But she was already established at that point. And like, I mean, there are a few other ones, but I feel like they are established. So maybe it was more of a chance to like, to sign on to like, somebody who didn't have a following already and didn't have an audience, like, are they brave enough to like, take that on from a newbie? You know, who knows?

B (33:00)

It's kind of interesting. It's been so, so long since 9 11, you know, that it would still be something that publishers were kind of, you know, in a similar way that they are squeamish about having Covid be part of the plot. That that would, it would be the same. It's interesting to me, but good for you for sticking to the story you wanted to tell. Because if we changed everything every time we had rejection, as soon as I.

F (33:25)

Get one response, I can't, like, yeah, I can't change.

B (33:28)

Yeah, we'd be left with, you know, a very different story. But the question that you're here for is about debuting. So what is one thing about your debut experience that surprised you?

F (33:40)

I think the biggest thing that surprised me about this whole experience was getting my blurbs. I started asking for blurbs or preparing to ask for blurbs. Like last summer, which was summer of 2024. There was a lot of discourse at that time, like kind of bubbling up about, like, do we want to have blurbs anymore? Are we sick of it? You called it like the blurb economy, you know, like that kind of like, what does it mean? What does it matter? Why are we doing this and everything? So I was extremely nervous about asking for blurbs. And I had it really built up. I'm, you know, I had anxiety. I'm like worried about, like, am I going to put people off or like make a fool of myself or anything like that. So I was very, very nervous about it going into it. And the agent gave me a big pep talk and was like, you just have to just like suck it up, you know. And my editor, the first one we put out was like in August of 2024, and it was for Lisa Jewell and oh my goodness, I know she's like my all time favorite thriller writer. Like, I love her stories and I love her and, you know, so I was terrified, you know, and she has a very, like, particular way she wants it. She doesn't read on E Readers, so she needed a paper copy and we hadn't printed our ARCS yet. Our ARCS wouldn't be ready for like another month or two. And we wanted to send it to her right away. And so my publisher, like printed it out and bound it and sent it to her. And he did that for me. And then he, he was like, well, you know, we sent it out, but she says she's not sure if she can get to it. You know, like, that kind of thing. Kind of like making sure I don't get my hopes up too much, you know? And then it was, like, weeks were ticking by, and I was like, oh, God, my deadline, I think, was December 1st, but it was, like, a tentative deadline. But, you know, every week that got closer to that, I'm like, oh, my God, she's not gonna. She's not gonna read it. She's not gonna read it. And then it just, like, one day, just, you know, I got an email with her blurb, and I was like, oh, my. You know, I was very excited. I. I was just listening to the podcast. Olivia, you were talking about Liz Moore getting herplerb, and I had, like, a very similar experience. You know, like, I was. I want to frame it and put it in my office. And. And then actually, I got to meet her later at Voucher Con, and that was amazing, too. So she was, like, so sweet. But that was, like, one experience that I had. It was so fun. And then I also did a lot of, like, cold Instagramming. Really. Like, I. Katie Hayes, she was someone that I used as a comp. Like, her book the Cloisters, which I love. And I use her book as a comp because it's, like, set in a museum. I mean, my mind is not. But it's in the art world kind of. And a little bit of, like, the dark academia vibe, too, in the art world. So I just, like, blindly reached out to her on Instagram and was like.

A (36:28)

I loved your book.

F (36:29)

Would you ever want to blurb mine? This is what it's about. And I'm so stupid that, like, I didn't know on the. When you're sending, like, an Instagram message, like, if you push return and, like, it goes automatically up. I think it was on my computer doing it, and you hit return, and it sends. And then she wasn't talking to me, so I couldn't. I could only send one message, so it was, like, half my message. But she was so sweet and, like, responded right away. And so I was able to get her. She was really, really nice. And I sent her an arc when they were ready. And then, like, just everybody I think that I reached out to, there was only one person who didn't respond to me at all. And I totally understand, and I have no hard feelings about it, but, like, people were so generous and so sweet and so kind. Like, I think it was so heartening to know that, like, these writers who have gotten to a certain level in a certain place, like, they still remember what it's like to be, you know, at the beginning. So I'm just so appreciative of, like, their generosity and their time.

A (37:35)

That's so lovely. We were also having another conversation on the podcast, I think, in last week's episode, where Olivia was saying how impactful blurbs are to her as a reader and how it really determines if she picks up a book or, you know, that she hasn't heard of before, which I thought was so interesting because I think I pay less attention to them. So not that I've been flippant, but I didn't have my head around the full impact of them.

F (38:01)

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much weight to give them. You know, I love that I have Lisa Jules blurb on my cover, and I think I have Andy Bart's also on my cover, and then Katie's on my back. But I feel like. I don't know if it's, like, helping sell the book, but it definitely feels good for, like, people. I feel like when they look at the book and see the names of the people who blurbed it, they automatically know what they're getting themselves into. And I think that that's really helpful for thrillers or genre of any kind.

A (38:31)

And even just the vote of confidence as a writer to know that, okay, maybe this person on Goodreads didn't like my book, but Lisa Jewell did. Oh, my gosh.

C (38:43)

Yeah.

F (38:44)

I mean, yeah, I would hope so. I mean, it does feel good. And it was sort of like a moment of like, okay, I can do this. I can continue. We can continue. We can actually publish this book like we have. You know, I'm legitimate.

B (38:56)

I don't know.

F (38:57)

I think there's always that feeling. You're not. You're, like, afraid that, you know, if you have imposter syndrome or something on your first book, I hope it goes away. Does it?

A (39:06)

It doesn't. No.

B (39:09)

No.

A (39:10)

Sorry. Sorry to break out of yourself.

B (39:12)

I don't want to know that.

F (39:12)

I don't want to know that.

A (39:16)

Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us. I'm so happy that you had such a positive experience with blurbs. So I hope that all of our listeners are very excited to check out Tell Them youm Lied, the book that Lisa Jewell loved. But if they also want to keep up with you, can you tell them where are the best places for them to find you on the Internet?

F (39:38)

Yeah, definitely. I write a substack, like you were saying. It's called this Debut Life, and I Talk all about my publishing journey and after and like everything that's happened. I am on Instagram, Aura Loeffler, I think I must have on Facebook, but I really never do that at all. And Threads, but I don't do that either.

A (39:58)

Fair.

F (39:59)

I'm really Instagram and Substack.

A (40:01)

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining us today. We are so excited today to have Aisha Muhar, who is an Emmy award winning writer and producer who's worked on shows like Hacks, Parks and Recreation and the Good Place. She was born in Connecticut and raised on Long Island. She now lives in Los Angeles with her family. And Loved One is her first novel. And also I have been gushing about how much I love Loved One. So I'm so excited to have you here and we'll try my best not to just gush at you for the entire time we have.

C (40:36)

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited that someone is gushing. That's great to hear. I love hearing feedback about the book. Thank you for having me.

A (40:42)

Well, for anyone who maybe has missed my praises about this book, can you give us the pitch for this novel?

F (40:49)

Okay.

C (40:49)

Well, basically in this novel, it's a love triangle between three people, but one of them is dead. And that's, that's the very short elevator pitch. But it's about a young woman named Julia who's just ending her twenties. Kind of an end of the era. An era for her. But also her close friend Gabe, who she once dated, has passed away suddenly. And in dealing with the aftermath of that loss and also just tracking down some of his belongings, her journey leads her to his last ex girlfriend. So Julia's basically his first ex girlfriend. And his last ex girlfriend is a woman named Elizabeth. She lives in London. And the two women had different experiences with this man with Gabe in their intimate relationships. And they're also experiencing grief in different ways. But they are also drawn to each other in terms of figuring out what exactly happened and who Gabe really was and who these two women are now to each other. It's kind of a romantic Rashomon in a way, and explores grief and loss, intimacy and longing.

A (41:48)

I love that the COVID copy describes it as an emotional mystery. Is that your words or is that words the publisher came up with?

C (41:57)

That actually is mine, because emotional mystery because. Yeah, I also have heard someone describe the book as a mystery for scaredy cats.

A (42:05)

That is exactly why I feel like this really hit for me, because I like the feeling of a mystery, but I'm too much of a scaredy cat when anyone starts getting murdered. So, you know, I. I appreciate that it has the pacing of a mystery, but it's in a controlled environment where, like, there's no killer.

C (42:25)

Yes, I'm too much of a scaredy cat to write that type of book, too. There is a death at the beginning, but, you know, you know why? It starts at a funeral. And it's more about what happened leading up to this death and how the two people who were closest to him at the time, how they'll basically recover afterwards. And it's also about this push and pull relationship between these two women. I've also referred to the book as a relationship postmortem.

A (42:50)

Oh, I love that, too.

B (42:52)

Given your background in screenwriting, what was it about this story that made you want to write it as a novel as opposed to a pilot or a feature or something else?

C (43:03)

It was mostly, I think, the character's points of view. And I originally came up with the idea. I knew I was going to be exploring grief and envy in a really specific, granular way. And I think that just lended itself to the pacing of a novel, of the interiority of being with a character so closely. Though I did start by writing in the third person with Julia and Elizabeth, but I realized that was taking the tension out of the book because it'd be a chapter where Julia would say, I wonder what Elizabeth is thinking. And then I'd go to Elizabeth's chapter and be like, elizabeth was thinking. So that kind of took away the tension. And so I switched to first person, just Julia. There's a lot of dialogue in it, like all things that could be in a TV or movie. But I felt like because we were dealing with some of these deep emotions, it just felt right for a novel when I was developing it and I really wanted to write, return to prose fiction. That's what I had always wanted to do since I was a kid. That's what I'd gone to college to do. And then my senior year, I ended up in a screenwriting class. And it changed the trajectory of my life. But originally it had been prose fiction. So when I finished Parks and Recreation, I realized, oh, I still have this dream of wanting to write a novel. If not now, when? So I started working on the novel after that.

A (44:15)

And I know this is a huge question, but if you were to give us a couple of quick differences, like what are a couple things that were really different going from screenwriting to novel writing?

C (44:26)

The writing part was similar in that you are coming up with characters and situations that are believable. And at least the way that I write for TV is similar to how I write a book. But. But I think the biggest difference is a business thing where we have a union for TV writers. And I think I just got used to that in a way, and it's not the case for novelists. And not to say that it was a bad experience because of that, but I think having had a union for so many years, starting as a baby writer in television, and having the resources that explains to you what the process is going to be like, what you can expect, what the norm is, so you can kind of be like, okay, am I having an experience that is usual or not usual? And yeah, that was just a big difference in terms of having that. And it really made me appreciate the Writer's Guild.

A (45:14)

I bet.

B (45:15)

Yeah. There's not a lot of, I don't know, like, structural standardization.

A (45:19)

Yeah.

B (45:19)

For authors or writers at all.

C (45:22)

No, I think. I mean, I cobble things together by reading books, talking to other authors, looking online, and that happens in tv, too. Like, people. You still talk to other writers. You look, you do your research. But it does help having one standard of how things have been done or how things are supposed to be done at your disposal and to know that you have that union backing you no matter what. So that was the biggest difference. And then, obviously, just writing alone is different from collaborating with a group of people. I was used to, if I say something and it's funny, I get immediate feedback. You know, it's like the audience is there. You have eight to ten other writers to tell you. Whereas if you're writing alone and you kind of chuckle to yourself, it's like, well, I guess we'll see. And then, you know, obviously by the time I finished the book and I had others reading it, then I would get that feedback, but I didn't have that immediate feedback that you get in a room.

B (46:08)

When it comes to being a debut, what is one thing about the experience that really surprised you?

C (46:16)

I did a lot of research. I read that book before and after the book deal by Courtney Maugham. Like, I did get a sense of what to expect. So there weren't too many surprises. But one thing that has surprised me about the debut is that there are so many moments of debut. It's like whenever a new reader comes across the book, then it's debuting again. Like, someone will send me a message on Instagram, or, you know, the book will be mentioned in, like, your newsletter, Becca, and then someone new will read it, or I'LL get news that someone that started reading it when it came out has just finished or. And so that feels very different from TV in a way, because, you know, when it's out, it's out. And mostly people are watching it around the same time because you want to be part of the discourse, and that's in the moment. But for the book, I've just been, it's been a really nice surprise to see that it's October now, and I just saw that there's a book club that chose it for their November read. So then I'm expecting to get responses from people in November where they've just come across the book for the first time and they've read it. So I really like that as a way of. I wasn't expecting that. I thought it would be kind of like, okay, everyone read it and the reviews are in. But that's very, that's very like Hollywood standard of how things come in. Whereas opposed to this is just, it's getting new feedback every day, which I really like.

A (47:28)

I love that that's such a positive way of spinning. What I think sometimes I felt is like the slowness where I'm like, hurry up and read it already. Come on, it's out.

C (47:37)

When it first came out, I did realize I had this thought, like, okay, now I'll hear from people. It came out August 12, August 13. But then it was like, oh, of course it's not going to be like, everyone reads at different paces. And I know that it's so different when it's your own book, you're like, you're saying you're expecting that. But then if you think as a reader, I might have other books on my shelf, I might, you know, want to save it for a specific vacation. I might want to. I slowed down if my friends reading it too. And then we're going to catch up, like, so that's what I had to remember. And then it became really delightful and fun to see it.

A (48:06)

Oh, I'm so glad. So before we let you go, can you tell our listeners where they can find you online if they would like to keep up with you in addition to reading your fantastic debut, loved one?

C (48:18)

Yes, I am on Instagram @ishmu e e s h m u and that's where I will announce things like, I might be a substack at one point, but right now, Instagram is the place where you can find me.

B (48:35)

We are so excited to have Katie with us today. Katie Yee is the writer from Brooklyn. By day, she works at the Brooklyn Museum. By night, she writes usually under the watch of her judgmental rescue dog, Ollie. Maggie, or A Man and a Woman Walk into a Bar is her first novel. Welcome.

E (48:51)

Thank you so much for having me, you guys. I'm so excited to be here. And thanks also for just, like, showing Maggie and me so much love in previous episodes.

B (48:58)

Oh, of course.

A (49:00)

We are so excited to have you here because this is a book that we both loved and I know our listeners have heard about it. So now we're excited to chat with you.

E (49:08)

I'm happy to be here.

B (49:10)

Can you give us your pitch for the book since you're here with us and we can hear it straight from the author?

C (49:16)

Yeah.

E (49:16)

For sure, this is going to sound a little bit bleak, but for those of you who haven't heard my spiel yet, bear with me. Maggie, or A Man and Woman Walk into a Bar is the story of a woman who discovers that her husband is having an affair. And then right after that, she's diagnosed with breast cancer. But I always say in like, kind of a fun way where she names the tumor after her husband's lover, the titular Maggie. And she starts talking to it. And, you know, she also becomes really obsessed with her children's bedtime stories and with infusing them with Chinese mythology kind of as a way to get them to fall in love with their shared culture. But ultimately, it's a book about the people and the stories that we reach for when everything else feels unbearably heavy.

B (49:57)

You've perfected that, by the way. That was perfect.

E (50:00)

Did it sound too canned? I worry about that sometimes.

B (50:02)

No, no, it was the right balance of all the elements, I think.

A (50:06)

I think your book is a hard book to pitch, and that, I think, really summed it up nicely in a way that does it justice. So I appreciate that. But we gotta talk about the title. One of the most unique and attention grabbing titles, like, I think that might have been when, before the book came out, the first thing that drew me to it was I was like, huh, it's such a different title convention than we usually see. Was this always the title? Was there any pushback from your publisher? Like, how did we land here?

E (50:37)

Yeah, this is going to be such an unhelpful story. This was always the title, pretty much. I think originally I had the two clauses flipped. So it was originally a man and woman walk into a bar or Maggie, and then my agent is the one who switched them, which I think was completely right. I think she even did it by accident. But Then we were like, actually, that sounds much better. Let's go with that because we'll all just call it it Maggie anyway. And then luckily my editor was super on board and they were like, great, and we'll just make it like a super text heavy cover and we'll go from there. But I wanted to play with like joke structure and expectation and I think that's kind of where the title comes from initially.

B (51:13)

That's so interesting because it's such a different type of title and I feel like there's always these internal conversations about marketing and sales and I guess the powers that be were like, yes, this works. Works in all regards.

E (51:24)

I feel so lucky. I mean, look, I. I'm such a, like, punctuation, like nerd. I love semicolons. And I, I feel like AI is kind of ruining this because isn't the. The tell now? Everyone is like, em dashes and semicolons. Like real people never use those. I'm like, no, I swear. I wrote this myself.

B (51:42)

It feels like a very human title, you know, if you wouldn't put in a bunch of things to chatgpt and come up with that. So I think, I think it worked.

E (51:51)

I appreciate that.

B (51:52)

The question that we're having all our authors answer today is, what is the one thing about your debut experience that surprised you of? I'm sure the many things.

E (52:01)

It's a constantly surprising process every day, in a good way. I feel like when you ask this question, the first thing that comes to my mind, and this is gonna sound maybe so stupid, but it's just that people have like, read her.

A (52:14)

That doesn't sound stupid at all. I know exactly, or I think I know exactly what you mean, but I mean even like.

E (52:20)

So I work at the Brooklyn Museum. That's my, my wonderful 9 to 5 job. And like even like getting in the elevator and having people I work with be like, oh, I saw you had like a book come out. And then I read it and I was like, oh. And then it's like, ding. And you get to your floor and you're like, okay, goodbye. That's surprising. I think the thing that's been so wonderfully surprising though is like every time I've. Because I did book tour this summer, which I'm super grateful for, and I had the best time going to like eight different cities that I've never. Most of which I've never been to before. So that was really fun for me. And meeting readers was honestly my favorite and most surprising part. Once again shocked that anyone beyond my Family and friends picked it up, except for my dad. All love to my dad, but he was like, got to page seven. I fell asleep. He's not a big reader. I respect that. I knew that. I was surprised he made it that far. If dad, if you're listening to this, love you. But, yeah, just surprised to meet readers who've, like, read it and who wanted to come talk to me about it after. And I think the thing that's, like, so wonderful and shocking is how vulnerable people have been when they're talking to me. Either, like, during audience Q and A or, like, in the signing line. People have come up and pretty much everyone has been like, I have, like, a similar story. Or, like, I'd like to tell you about my sister, best friend, mother, and, you know, what have you. Who has, like, experienced breast cancer or I'm going through a divorce and I'm a single mom and I want to talk to you about this now. And I. I don't know why. I just really did not expect that to happen. But I'm so grateful for people's, like, vulnerable stories.

A (53:50)

Well, it's like your book, especially as a debut, it lives in your laptop for so long, and you're just hanging out with these fake people that you made up, and then all of a sudden, they're in the outside world and you're like. You're like, wait, you know these people, too.

E (54:04)

Yes, exactly. It's like, oh, my imaginary friends have now run away.

C (54:08)

Yeah. Yeah.

B (54:10)

That vulnerability you talk about when people share what they liked about the book or ask questions, it really reminds me of when you're doing an event, you can tell someone asking a question is really nervous. And also, I always get really nervous when I ask questions at book events. And so sometimes I just think about even just the act of I want to ask a question about the book, and I want to sit here and raise my hand in front of all these people, and my voice is shaking. And I think there's something really lovely and special about that because it is vulnerable. It is so, you know, exposing in a way to do that. So it made me think of that. I love that.

E (54:44)

Yeah, it's so funny, too, because, I mean, a lot of people, I think they read especially Debuts, and they think that it is, like, kind of auto fiction. And in my case, while I have pulled a lot from, like, you know, my real life and, like, from my family, the plot of the book does not follow the plot of my life in any way. And so I think a lot of people keep Telling me that they, like, thought it was memoir when they picked it up, or they really believed that this had all happened to me. And I think there's something about maybe reading it that. And thinking that that makes people really want to, you know, come to events and share these stories. There was this one woman in particular at the Mercantile Library who was so sweet. She raised her hand and she was like, I'm here on behalf of my sister. We have a book club together. She's going through chemo right now, like, at this moment, which is why she cannot be here. So I've come in her stead.

A (55:32)

Oh, wow.

E (55:33)

And it was just this, like, really beautiful. I know. I feel like we were all crying after that event. It was just so heartening and beautiful the way that we can kind of all connect over how common this is.

A (55:45)

And I feel like every book event is. I don't know, it's kind of miraculous that a bunch of people gave up a night to come out and sit in a room of strangers to talk about books. Which feels so counter to all of the, I don't know, trend pieces I see about how everyone is just lonely and at home and scrolling on their phone and it's like, like, wow. No, this community does still exist. I was at a book event last Thursday that was packed the gills and I was like, wow, this just, like, makes my heart so happy.

E (56:14)

This is so. I totally agree. And that's something else that was kind of surprising too. Like, you know, I grew up in New York. I live in Brooklyn. Everyone says this is, like, the heart of, like, all the literary events and all the publishing houses. And I feel like we're so spoiled for options of, like, readings to go to here. Like, you can truly every single night go to a different friends reading if you wanted to, and you should because it's good to support your friends, but. And I used to work in publishing too, so there's something about being so saturated in the industry that I think was making me, honestly, a little bit, like, jaded about going to events about the state of literature and publishing. And it was just so inspiring, honestly, to go to these cities where no one knew me at all. I'd never been to these cities. I had no friends there. And just to, like, meet readers who, like, loved going to events, who, like, loved saving their Thursday night to go to a book club at their local bookstore. That was so wonderful. I feel like it really instilled a newfound sense of hope in me for the state of, like, reading.

B (57:13)

Yeah.

A (57:13)

Yeah. Oh, I feel like both giddy and chills just hearing that. Well Katie, you have been such a generous guest. Before we let you go, can you tell our listeners where they can find more of you on the Internet if they want to follow you after they obviously are going to read Maggie or A man and a woman walk into a bar.

E (57:30)

Oh my God. Yes you can find me on Instagram mergencyshampagne. All one word.

A (57:36)

Okay, we will see you there.

B (57:38)

Great handle.

A (57:39)

Very strong, very strong handle.

E (57:41)

I appreciate that. It's the one I picked in college and I just kept with it.

B (57:46)

Honestly, you could have picked worse. Knowing some of the choices I made in college. It would not have ended as well as that has for you. So congratulations.

E (57:53)

Thank you. I also just started a substack but I have like not written really anything on it. But you can also find me there also at Emergency champagne.

A (58:02)

See you there too. Perfect.

E (58:04)

See you there too. Thanks you guys.

A (58:06)

Let's take one final ad break.

B (58:13)

From bestselling author Wendy Walker comes a gripping new psychological thriller with a spectacular twist. Three friends, two timelines, one Deadly truth Don't miss Walker's new Audible original the Room Next Door a tightly crafted, ever twisting mystery told from three points of view. Starring acclaimed narrator and fan favorite Julia Whelan alongside Elizabeth Evans and Bebe Wood. The tagline for this one is they were best friends forever. Until the night one of them disappeared.

A (58:44)

In 2010, Brooke, Carrie and Eve were inseparable. But on the Fourth of July, Eve vanished and her case was never solved. Brooke moved away, but Carrie couldn't let go and her obsession drove her to become the Chief of police. Now, 15 years later, just as Carrie is about to close Eve's case for good, an anonymous call provides a chilling new lead and within days a man's body is hauled in by a fishing boat. His murder is linked to a hotel room a few miles away where the guest in the next room was none other than Brooke.

B (59:15)

As Carrie digs deeper into both cases, Brooke scrambles to cover her tracks and Eve's voice begins to rise from the past. Together their stories unravel a web of lies, betrayals and long buried secrets that lead to the shocking truth of what happened to Eve. Shea. Brilliantly weaving scripted scenes with dialogue within traditional narration, Wendy Walker's the Room Next Door is a deeply immersive, richly complex, nail biting thriller. Follow every step and misstep. Broken Carrie and eve take don't miss Wendy Walker's new Audible original the Room Next Door. Go to audible.com the Room NextDoor and Start listening today.

A (59:58)

All right, Olivia, let's get into some end matter. What are you obsessed with this week?

B (60:02)

I am obsessed with not wearing mascara. Oh, I hate this.

A (60:07)

I. I feel like Gen Z is trying to force this on the trend cycle and I feel like I look like a naked mole rat if I do my makeup without mascara.

B (60:17)

Well, as someone with light brows, I. As the sun shines brightly on my face right now, I too look naked mole radish. But I have been coming around to it paired with the right amount of blush. And I felt really quite cool the other day because I ended up at a coffee meeting. Long story, but I ended up at coffee with two 25 year olds and neither of them were wearing mascara and I wasn't. And that morning I had been like, should I put some on? And I got there and I was like, no. I felt free. I. I felt free. Did I wear mascara for the photos that I took yesterday? Yes, of course. I'm not. I haven't fully given up my millennial ways, but there's something really freeing about it.

A (60:59)

This is one of the things that if the trend cycle fully goes this way, I don't know that I'll be able to let go of and will just be the thing that tells on me for my age.

B (61:11)

You probably have dark eyelashes, don't you? I do, but you could use like a clear.

A (61:17)

I don't know.

B (61:17)

Also this, this is a side note. I have one eyelash that is literally double the length of all my other eyelashes.

A (61:23)

Weird.

B (61:24)

It's like a rogue. You know when people have like a rogue chin hair?

C (61:27)

Uh huh.

A (61:28)

You have a rogue eyelash.

B (61:29)

It's an eyelash. It's freakish. I wish it was easier to show off anyway. Show off. That's to show you. I meant. What are you obsessed with?

A (61:39)

I'm obsessed with this coat that I got from Mango and it's a leopard print coat and it makes me feel like a 60s cool girl. Like there is something so Edie Sedgwick about it. There's something. I don't know, it feels so glamorous. I've never owned a leopard coat before. I don't know if I've ever owned a statement coat before, but I, I feel so glamorous in it.

B (62:06)

Your variant is 60s this year. You have your mini skirts.

A (62:09)

True.

B (62:10)

Your statement leopard coat.

A (62:12)

True.

B (62:13)

I don't know if Mascara is the 60s or not, but I think there's.

A (62:16)

A lot of mascara.

B (62:18)

Yeah. Just forever.

F (62:19)

Yeah.

B (62:20)

Well, that sounds very cute. Thank you.

A (62:22)

I think we'll probably be seeing a lot of it as we get into coat season.

B (62:26)

Love a statement piece. What have you read in your bookish week?

A (62:29)

Okay, so I've already pitched this to you off air because I think you would particularly like this book. But over the weekend I read a book called the Ten Year Affair by Aaron Summers. The book is about two people, a man and a woman, who meet at a baby playgroup in their Hudson Valley town and they immediately hit it off and kind of have a romantic spark, except for they're both married to other people. And so the book covers the next 10 years and in one timeline they do nothing and they stay friends in each other's lives and in the other timeline they have a torrid 10 year affair. And I think I expected the book to be a little bit more speculative. I was kind of expecting it to be along the lines of the husbands, but it's very much rooted in reality and is very much about the difficulty of parenting young children and marriage in general. And I found this book, even though I'm not married and I do not have any children, never mind young children, I found this so poignant and I really, really enjoyed it.

B (63:45)

I'm looking forward to reading this one. I'm hitting a point of overwhelm with my TBR actually, but I will make room for this.

A (63:53)

I thought of you specifically because I think the town is supposed to be closer to the city than your town. But it has a very strong sense of place in a Hudson Valley town, which obviously made me think of you. What about you? What are you reading this week?

B (64:07)

I finished Take Me Apart by Sarah Sligar this morning. This book I've had forever. It came out in April 2020, which I feel bad for anyone who had a book come out around that time. Sure, I feel like it was rough. This is a literary thriller about a young woman who loses her job at a newspaper in very dramatic, traumatic circumstances and ends up taking this job doing archiving work for this famous photographer's son. This photographer died by suicide, or so that that is the claim, when she was, I believe in her 30s and the son was 11. And there are all these rumors that the son was the one who did it, the husband was the one who did it. Tons of kind of controversy about this famous female photographer. And so as this woman is going through the archives and organizing, she gets closer to the son who is now an adult and kind of becomes determined to learn exactly what happened to this woman. I couldn't put this down for about the first 150 pages. And then it got a tiny, tiny bit slow for me. But this is some of the most beautiful writing I've ever read in a thriller. It's like gorgeous prose. I think it's maybe like 2 1/2% too literary for me maybe. And so it became a little bit slow in part, but I just, I thought it was the most stunning writing. I kept wanting to underline things, and I think if I had read it like in one sitting, I would have just flown through the whole thing. But I'm also reading like four other different things right now, so I'm feeling a little bit distracted. But I do recommend this one if you're looking for a backlist pick.

A (65:54)

Okay. If you're looking for a frontless pick, though, I have a banger of a book for you, which is our October book club pick, which is Heart the Lover by Lily King. The book starts with a love triangle between three college students, and those relationships echo through the rest of the narrator's life in the other two parts. I don't wanna say more because I think it would be spoilery, but I cannot wait to discuss this with everyone in next week's episode.

B (66:24)

If you want to talk to us about any of this, you can join us in the Bat and Paper Facebook group, which is under Bat and Paper Podcast. You can also join us in our BFF formerly known as Geneva Chat Room Group, where we talk about all kinds of stuff. You can find that in the show notes. You can find us on Instagram at Batternpaper Podcast. I am on Instagram and substack liviamentor and you can pre order my second novel Little One. Now if you would feel so called to do that.

A (66:58)

And I am on Instagram ecampreman and my substack is@becca freeman.substack.com and we will see you next week for book club.

F (67:08)

Bye.