All the Other Mothers Hate Me Book Club

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: Episode Summary Episode Title: All the Other Mothers Hate Me Book Club
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Release Date: June 25, 2025

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1. Hosts' Highs and Lows

Olivia's Update:
Olivia begins by sharing her discomfort with her current ergonomic setup, leading to back and shoulder pain. She discusses her struggle with an unsupportive chair and the strain of typing on her laptop. [00:48]

"My chair looks like someone was churning butter in it for centuries." – Olivia Mentor [00:48]

To alleviate her discomfort, Olivia turned to yoga, specifically a video titled "Yoga for Writers" by Adrienne. This practice, coupled with her new mini standing desk on wheels, has significantly improved her posture and reduced her pain.

"My back feels so much better today. My shoulders, neck, everything, so much better." – Olivia Mentor [03:03]

Becca's Update:
Becca shares her sense of post-draft freedom after submitting her latest work. She describes feeling refreshed and delighted by her ability to decompress, despite minor setbacks like a failed museum visit that turned into a shopping trip.

"I feel delighted to be decompressing." – Becca Freeman [05:30]

She also recounts a publishing scare where her submitted draft went unnoticed, fearing her editor had quit or her contract was rescinded. This anxiety was later resolved when she discovered the email had landed in her editor's spam folder.

"The book is not being canceled." – Becca Freeman [09:04]

2. Book Club Discussion: "All the Other Mothers Hate Me" by Sarah Harmon

Plot Overview:
Olivia provides a high-level summary of "All the Other Mothers Hate Me," highlighting Florence's journey as a former girl band star and single mother in London. The story revolves around Florence investigating the disappearance of her son's bully, suspecting her own child might be involved. [11:40]

Initial Impressions:
Becca expresses her enjoyment of the book, appreciating its blend of fun and depth. She categorizes it as upmarket commercial fiction with a perfect balance after a "literary heavy" spring.

"I absolutely loved this. It was so fun." – Becca Freeman [12:24]

Genre and Pacing:
Olivia finds the book to have the pacing of a thriller, appreciating its fast-paced nature and the unique mashup of mystery, humor, and social commentary.

"I thought it was such a fast-paced, genre mashup of mystery, humor, social commentary." – Olivia Mentor [14:11]

Becca, on the other hand, perceives the pacing as medium and feels more connected to the humor and character dynamics than the mystery itself.

"I thought that the humor and voice was really what made it for me." – Becca Freeman [28:26]

Character Analysis:

• Florence: Both hosts discuss Florence's unlikable traits, debating the balance between her being a flawed individual and a devoted mother.

  Olivia: "Florence being a questionable Mother... challenging me." [22:30]
  Becca: "She was a funny person... I'm on her side because... you're not wrong." [24:09]

• Dylan: Olivia appreciates Dylan's quirky character, while Becca feels his involvement in environmental activism was underdeveloped.

  Olivia: "I loved how weird he was. He had his own specific set of interests." [35:10]
  Becca: "He was doing something added in... could have just left it alone." [38:26]

Comparisons to Other Works:
Becca compares the book to "Finley Donovan" series and "Killers of a Certain Age" by Diana Raybourn, noting similarities in tone and character dynamics. She also draws parallels to the Netflix show "Ginny and Georgia," highlighting the similarities in single mother protagonists with complex pasts.

"It reminded me so much of Ginny and Georgia on Netflix." – Becca Freeman [16:21]

Reception and Reviews:
The hosts note the mixed reviews on platforms like Goodreads, where the book holds a 3.55 rating. They discuss how unlikable characters, especially mothers, can polarize readers, particularly parents who might find Florence's actions uncomfortable to empathize with.

"This is getting pretty mixed bag reviews... you love it or you hate it." – Becca Freeman [24:09]

3. Future Adaptations and Casting Thoughts

Olivia and Becca delve into the potential TV adaptation of the book. They fantasize about casting choices, suggesting actors like Florence Pugh and Juno Temple for Florence and speculating on who might play other key characters.

Olivia: "Florence Pugh has this edge to her." [42:09]
Becca: "I was thinking much zanier. Like, I was thinking, like, Juno Temple." [42:30]

They express excitement about seeing how the humor and dark elements of the book will translate to the screen, hoping for a balance between goofy and serious tones.

Becca: "I hope you get to see more of the girl group in it." [43:55]

4. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Book Club Pick

The episode wraps up with a brief discussion about their upcoming July book club pick, "Atmosphere" by Taylor Jenkins Reid, chosen by their listeners. They express enthusiasm for the book's setting against the 1980s space program and its epic love story.

Becca: "I'm very excited. I'm even more excited because... 'Titanic'." [49:26]

They encourage listeners to join their Facebook and Geneva groups for more discussions and to stay tuned for future episodes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "My chair looks like someone was churning butter in it for centuries." – Olivia Mentor [00:48]
• "I feel delighted to be decompressing." – Becca Freeman [05:30]
• "The book is not being canceled." – Becca Freeman [09:04]
• "I absolutely loved this. It was so fun." – Becca Freeman [12:24]
• "Florence being a questionable Mother... challenging me." – Olivia Mentor [22:30]
• "I thought it was such a fast-paced, genre mashup of mystery, humor, social commentary." – Olivia Mentor [14:11]
• "I loved how weird he was. He had his own specific set of interests." – Olivia Mentor [35:10]
• "It reminded me so much of Ginny and Georgia on Netflix." – Becca Freeman [16:21]

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Conclusion

In this episode of Bad On Paper, Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter offer a candid and engaging discussion on Sarah Harmon's "All the Other Mothers Hate Me." They explore the book's intricate character dynamics, blend of humor and mystery, and its reception among readers. The hosts provide insightful comparisons to other works and contemplate the potential for a TV adaptation, making this episode a comprehensive guide for anyone interested in the book or looking for their next read.

Transcript

[Olivia Mentor]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia, Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And today is our June book club episode. We're talking about all the other Mothers Hate Me and. And this has a lot of discussion, just hot topics. So it's gonna be fun.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm ready. But before we get into our discussion, this episode is brought to you by a new book called Sunny side Up by Katie Storino. We'll tell you more about it later in the episode, but it's available now wherever books are sold. Olivia, before we get into book club, tell me your high.

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is. It's kind of connected to my low. So I regret to inform everyone that everyone who messaged me and said, you, desk situation is going to lead to back and shoulder pain. Why did they say that was correct? Because my chair is not ergonomically sound. It's just my chair looks like someone was churning butter in it, like, for centuries. And now I'm trying to type on my laptop constantly. But I just this week have really been experiencing, like, such uncomfortable, kind of like between my shoulder blades pain, which I think is because I've been hunched over my keyboard and, like, really just, you know, not doing anything good for my body.

[Becca Freeman]

But you have your monitor at eye level, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

I do, yeah. But I think because I have to rest a certain, like, I don't know, whatever it is is just not working for me.

[Becca Freeman]

So, I mean, not to shame you, I spend my full day in a C shape. It's coming for me.

[Olivia Mentor]

I've had a lot of different back stuff over the years, usually from, like, overworking out or something back in my. My. My lifting days, but I've never had this shoulder blade aching feeling. It's just the worst. And I think it's so hard to, like, find anything that helps it. I had a standing desk for so long, and it really helped me. So I've had this discomfort. I was like, do something about it, Olivia. So I did this yoga video. It's 30 minutes by yoga by. By Adrienne, which is very popular, very famous. And she has this video that my friend Martha suggested called Yoga for Writers. And I was like, oh, that sounds kind of nice. I'm not a yoga person, but I was like, some light stretching. Sounds lovely. It was so relaxing. I stretched my neck, I stretched my back. It felt great. I did it in my office, and it was so quiet and it was wonderful. I can't recommend this enough. And I also got my mini standing desk on wheels, so I've been journaling at my desk, recording at my desk. But then I stand when I'm writing, sending emails. I'm excited about this balance. My back feels so much better today. My shoulders, neck, everything, so much better. So anyway, I just rolled up the high and low in one. I'm sorry, I've never done that. I'm really pushing boundaries here.

[Becca Freeman]

That's okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

But yeah, that's this week. That's where I'm at.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know why, but I feel slightly scandalized by the idea of writing standing up. I don't know why, really. I don't know. Like, it feels like it's like my brain wouldn't work well enough. Or maybe it's that mine has a walking desk. So I don't want to be walking while writing a book.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't recommend it enough. As someone who hasn't done it for years and just started doing it again this week, I was like, oh, yeah, this feels so much better in every possible way. And my little standing desk on wheels, I think. I mean, I think I got on Amazon for like maybe 50 to $100. Not to plug Amazon, but there are really cheap options that aren't like the big mechanical rising standing desks. But also, I learned that Ann Patchett wrote Tom Lake while walking on a shredmail on a standing desk.

[Becca Freeman]

She did. And then she wrote all of Truth and Beauty laying in bed because she was depressed. She writes in all shapes and relatable woman positions.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, that's my high and low. Okay, do you want to start with the high or the low? I guess it's up to you.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm going to start with the high. My high is my post draft freedom. I was listening to last week's episode and I sound fried. Like, I think I turned in my draft draft at 2pm and we recorded at 3pm and I was zonked. And I was saying to Olivia, before we started recording, it took me a few days for my nervous system to calm down. Like on Saturday, I was like, you can sleep in as late as you want. You don't have anything on your calendar. You can relax, you can do anything. And I was like, too keyed up still. So it took me a few days to come down. But I feel like I'm now in a chill phase where I can delude myself and think that my draft is perfect. And I have about two and a half weeks, so it's like a nice little break. I still have newsletter work and I still have podcasting work, but on Tuesday this week I went and had lunch with a friend on Wednesday. I took the whole afternoon. Well, we were trying to go to see the Singer John Singer Sargent exhibit at the Met, but didn't realize the Met was closed on Wednesday. So that failed. It ended up becoming more of a shopping adventure. But yeah, just I feel delighted to be decompressing.

[Olivia Mentor]

You do seem refreshed a little bit.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel it.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's a lot of high intensity feelings for a long period of time and then suddenly you're just, oh, now I'm just waiting for something. I'm just sitting here.

[Becca Freeman]

Can I tell you my low, which was a small stakes publishing nightmare realized?

[Olivia Mentor]

You can. You previewed it to me, but I wanna hear the full. I know I did tell you color, the full color version.

[Becca Freeman]

So my week wasn't all low stress. So I turned in my draft on Friday afternoon and publishing Does Summer Friday. So I wasn't necessarily expecting to hear anything because I don't know what time they start. But I was like, oh, people are out of the office, whatever. Monday, I don't hear anything by Tuesday morning. I was like, this is strange. Like usually I feel like somebody would confirm receipt of this and my agent and her assistant were also copied on it. And I was like, nobody has emailed me back. I didn't get any out of offices that people were on vacation. Like something feels off. So I emailed my editor again on Tuesday morning and I was like, hey, just checking in that you got this. Didn't hear anything. So by the end of the day Tuesday, I was like starting to be like, oh my God, my editor has quit her job and she doesn't want to tell me or like they're rescinding my book contract. I don't know. I was just like bubbling all kinds of worst case scenarios.

[Olivia Mentor]

So. Can I interrupt you?

[Becca Freeman]

Sorry.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's so funny that you just said that because my substack, I have a substack post going live tomorrow. And part of it I talked about the waiting aspect of publishing like you're talking about. And I talked about this instance where my editor hadn't gone back to me in a while. I went through this whole scenario where I was convinced they had canceled my book and they were waiting to figure out how to tell me. So I was like, this is so comforting to me that this goes through someone's head as well. So you're not alone.

[Becca Freeman]

But oh yeah. So finally I gin up the courage to text her. And I was like, I sent the most like tiptoe text where I was like, hey, just making sure that you got my draft. I sent it on Friday, and then I sent a check in and I didn't hear anything. And it's probably just because you're really busy and I'm sorry for bothering you, but just wanted to make sure that you got it. And she texts back probably like 20 minutes later. And she was like, oh, it was in my spam. And I was like, I mean, everyone who listens knows me and that my worst nightmare is anyone waiting on me or thinking that I didn't fulfill my obligations. And I was like, so glad that I checked in because what if we just polited each other where she thinks that I've blown my deadline and am not communicating with her, and I think that she's just really busy and it's in her spam folder the whole time. Oh, my God. I.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's haunting.

[Becca Freeman]

Haunting. Anyone waiting on me is just, oh, my God, my nightmare stomach ache feeling.

[Olivia Mentor]

Haven't we gotten good enough at technology so that important emails do not go to spam?

[Becca Freeman]

I had a curse word in the body of the email, and I wonder if that's why.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, it was just.

[Becca Freeman]

It was crap. Wasn't a bad one. I didn't think I learned my lesson.

[Olivia Mentor]

Does that happen?

[Becca Freeman]

I said, oh, curse words. She said, their spam filter is really sensitive. I don't know. Who knows how many curse words are in the manuscript as a whole if they're scanning the word document attached to.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man. Usually I think Gmail kind of like scans your history, you know, so. Oh, they've emailed before. That's so weird.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. But anyway, all's well. She received it.

[Olivia Mentor]

The book is not being canceled.

[Becca Freeman]

The book is not being canceled. But, man, Tuesday was a real in my head day.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Oh, gosh, I know that feeling. Now I'm gonna question every email I sent that someone. Now I'm gonna be like, should I ask if it's in their spam? Or maybe they're just taking a while to reply. Which is it? It could be either one. This is unlocked a fear for me.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, sorry.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, but it's good to know because maybe that's why someone's not getting back to me. You know, following up never hurt anyone. I'll just say that.

[Becca Freeman]

True. Well, before we get into our book discussion, let's take a quick ad break. I am so excited for this ad because it's for a new book called Sunny side Up by Katie Storino, which just came out yesterday, and I got a sneak peek of this book and it is such a fun romance. So it follows recently divorced Sunny Green, who's a New York City PR executive who finds herself in a love triangle with an investor for her new business and wait for it, her mailman.

[Olivia Mentor]

You might know Katie from being a guest on this podcast, or as the founder of Megababe, or as an influencer and a body positivity advocate. And if you know and love her from the Internet, so much of Katie makes it into this book. From Sunny's rescue dogs to a plot line about Sunny reviving a substack newsletter her ex hated. Unsurprisingly, body acceptance is a huge theme in this book and we get to go along on Sunny's journey to to founding a plus size friendly swimwear brand.

[Becca Freeman]

And while the romance is hot, the New York City references are a plus. One of my favorite things about this book is the friendship storyline where Sunny rebuilds female friendships after her divorce and her friend group just had such a next gen Sex and the City vibe like the whole book did between the friendship and all of her dating app disasters. And it's all underscored by this unshakable belief that love is out there. This book has been getting serious buzz with features in the New York Times, on the Today show, and more. You're definitely going to want to pack this one in your summer beach bag. The book is out now and you can grab your copy of Sunny side Up by Katie Storino wherever books are sold. Okay, onto a different book. I want to talk about our June book club club pick, which is all the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon. Olivia, you wrote a lovely little plot summary. Give us the high level.

[Olivia Mentor]

So this story is all about Florence, who is a former girl band star who is now a single mother to a 10 year old boy living in London trying to make ends meet, trying to figure out her love life, trying to figure out motherhood and trying to navigate the very posh world of London private school schools. And her son Dylan has this bully in his class who they've had issues in the past and when this bully goes missing, Florence starts to suspect that maybe her son Dylan has something to do with it. So the story is all about her journey as a sort of amateur detective to find out what happened to Alfie, her son's bully, and if her son had anything to do with it. What's her high level review?

[Becca Freeman]

I absolutely loved this. It was so fun. I know that we'd been saying that we owe the listeners A fun one after our very literary heavy spring. And this felt like the perfect antidote where it was, like, very fun. It was very much a romp, but it still had something to say. Like, it felt like the best kind of upmarket commercial fiction.

[Olivia Mentor]

I totally agree. I'm so glad you liked it. Yeah. Yeah, that makes me happy. How did it compare to your expectations?

[Becca Freeman]

It was definitely less of a thriller, more of a mystery, which maybe got a little lost on me in the pitch. And I guess I didn't expect the character to be quite so unlikable. Like, I could almost see you not liking her. Like, her being a little too messy for your tastes. So I was, like, very surprised. Not in a good way, bad way. About, like, the sharpness of it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that's funny. We'll talk about this later. But I loved how unlikable she was. But it also challenged me a little bit because I think it was like a different level of unlikability than I have seen in a lot of characters.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Importantly, I need to know, though, it wasn't scary, right? You didn't think it was scary?

[Becca Freeman]

No, no, no, not at all. This was not like, I wouldn't even consider this a thriller. Like, this was definitely more of a mystery, which I usually don't have problems with in a mystery. I feel like the distinction is in a mystery, the crime has already happened before the book and somebody's just solving what happened, but the danger is less imminent to them, versus in a thriller, somebody's being chased by a murderer and their mystery is going to need to be solved after.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I think it has the pacing of a thriller, though. I found it to be very fast paced, personally. Would you agree with that?

[Becca Freeman]

I found it to be medium paced. I don't have any problems with it, but I wasn't. I don't know if I'd call it quite thriller pacing.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, interesting. I would consider it fast paced, but I thought it was such an interesting little, like, genre mashup of mystery, humor, social commentary. Great writing, I thought, like, just very sharp, smart writing. And I think we don't get a lot of books like this that are this specific mashup and combination. But it really reminded me of Finley Donovan. I've only read maybe the first two books in that series, but I don't know. Did this ring true for you as well?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I definitely think that Finley Donovan is like a comedy mystery. I think that this is in the same genre. You know what it really reminded me of? Have you read the book called I Hope This Finds you well by Natalie Sue.

[Olivia Mentor]

So, you know, I started that not that long ago, maybe a few months ago on my Kindle, and I didn't really get into it. I don't remember why, but I hear nothing but great things. Is that like a mystery comedy as well?

[Becca Freeman]

Less of a mystery, but the sharpness of the hot mess main character who's definitely not above reproach but is just judging the heck out of everyone and has like really pithy little thoughts about. In this case, it's a workplace book, so it's all about her co workers versus in all the other other mother has hate me. It's like the school community. I felt like there was a lot in common with the voice. Slightly different, like that one beers almost. It's like a workplace dramedy plus a romance B story. So slightly different. But the main characters reminded me a ton of each other. And then you know what the other thing that it kind of reminded me of, it reminded me a little bit of Killers of a Certain Age by Diana Raybourn of, like, people who you wouldn't normally expect investigating a crime and like, really laugh out loud type tone that you wouldn't normally expect from a mystery or thriller.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that was a book club pick as well, now that I'm thinking about it. But yes, you're totally right.

[Becca Freeman]

But the thing. Oh my gosh, the thing that I was thinking of the most, and I don't know if it's just because I was watching it simultaneously, but this reminded me so much of Ginny and Georgia on Netflix, the TV show.

[Olivia Mentor]

Can you share the premise of that? Because I'm seeing it everywhere. I've seen it everywhere for years. Never have pressed play for some reason. I know this is not accurate, but when I think of it, I think of Magnolia Farm. What is that show that's like utterly ridiculous. It's set in some sweet magnolias. I don't know why it makes me think of that, but it's not that, right? It's different.

[Becca Freeman]

Not really. I could see some overlap with it. Like it shares maybe 50% of DNA with that, but there's a whole other side to it. So Ginny and Georgia is about the single mom of two kids. The kids have different fathers who moves to this small town that is called Wellsbury in Massachusetts. I think it's supposed to be Wellesley that's like this very idyllic Americana type town. And the mom has like a very seedy past and she just wants to give her kids a good life, but her past Keeps catching up with her. And the character Georgia, who's the mother is very like loose moral compass, cares so much about her kids, but is constantly doing things that are like very morally iffy. And so the characters reminded me so much of each other.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that makes me want to watch then because I liked this character despite not liking her at all.

[Becca Freeman]

It goes down easy, the show. And then it also is told from the point of view of her teen daughter who's a sophomore in high school. And I think the high school. I don't know, this is probably not for me to judge, but it feels very realistic of like the high school first love. All the drama of high school type storylines.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I'm like fresh out of shows, so after I finish the Dallas Cowboy cheerleader show, I will check that out.

[Becca Freeman]

It's a good one this season. The third season is much more intense than I expected. I was watching a bunch of episodes last night and I cried like three times, which I was not expecting to.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, okay, wait.

[Becca Freeman]

But we have a listener voicemail who this book also reminded them of a show that's new.

[C]

Hi Becca and Olivia, it's Katie from Nova Scotia. Just wanted to give a recommendation to readers who enjoyed all the Other Mothers Hate Me, who might be looking for something in a similar vein, maybe to watch. I just finished the first season of High Potential with Caitlin Olsen, and while I was reading all the Other Mothers Hate Me, the character of Florence reminded me so much of Caitlin Olsen's character, Morgan. So if you're looking for something kind of similar, that same kind of quirky humor, I would highly recommend checking out High Potential. Thanks.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye. So one thing that I learned while doing research about this book after I read it is that it kind of had this like very big story, splashy auction that everyone was talking about in the industry. I don't know if you heard about it at the time, assuming it sold a couple years ago, but it was a nine way auction, which is incredible and huge and a very big deal and I would say fairly rare. And I get exactly why it was so appealing to publishers. And I was wondering, Becca, if you started reading and kind of understood right away, like, oh yeah, you can see why this was buzzy.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh my gosh. Yeah. The very first line of the book is the missing boy is 10 year old Alfie Risby. And to be perfectly honest with you, he's a little shit like it is. The voice is so clear. And this feels so different from both mom fiction and the standard mystery, but it has enough in common with each of those that you could clearly see who the audience for this would be. Yeah, I could totally see why it was such a big draw.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think there'll be more books like this? You know, not that it will necessarily start a trend, but I just feel like in the Finley Donovan space, the killers of a certain age, like there's not that much. It's just either it's a very hard subgenre to break into or people just aren't writing it that much. I'm not sure which it is.

[Becca Freeman]

I agree with you and disagree with you in that I think that the comedy mystery is more rare. But I think the hot mess boy female protagonist is already a trend across multiple genres. Like I could come up with a bunch of examples that aren't mysteries per se, but like have this type of unlikable, hot mess female character who's navigating X.

[Olivia Mentor]

You're right. And what I do think is a little bit different about this specific messy character is I thought the author really pushed the boundary in terms of like how unlikable she could make Florence. Because I think, you know, I love an unlikable character. But even for me, some of the stuff that this character did, I was like, oh, that's very cringey. Like leaving your kid alone at night while you go out and party to me is like a very hard thing to forgive, I guess, which feels so judgmental. But I think that's a pretty standard take. And she was so cruel to. To Jenny in that one scene that, oh, it made me cringe. It made me so physically uncomfortable. But I listened to this interview with the author and she was saying how she was really inspired by the idea of can you be a bad person but ultimately still love your kid more than anything and still be a good mother. And I thought that was an interesting question and that she pushed it pretty much as far as you could. What do you think about the unlikability of Florence in and especially in how she parents and how she treats other people?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think that. I don't know that I think she was a good mother. I think she loved her child and I think she would do anything for her child. Was she a good mother? Sometimes, not often.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, that's the interesting part. It's like she could have made her a terrible person to everyone else but the best mother. And it would have been like more straightforward and her unlikability would have been kind of like cutesy and charming, but like, it's not at all because like, she is a questionable Mother, like you said.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I definitely think her love for her kid is. If anyone has read the novel writing book Save the Cat, where the premise is like, you need to have the unlikable character save a cat in the first act so that people are on their side. And I think her Save the Cat was how much she loved Dylan and how much she was willing to sacrifice for him, even though she was not a very good person. But I think the other thing is she was a funny person, you know, and a lot of times not when she was mistreating Dylan or Jenny, but you know, when she was talking about the rich parents at her kids school, like, she was very funny and like I was inclined to agree with her, you know, like, oh yeah, Alfie's dad, Rollo Risby sounds like a total douche nozzle. She had such funny observations about them. Like, I could read a book that had no plot, that was just her funny comic observations. And so I think in that way you're like almost on her side because the people that she's making fun of and the institutions that she's making fun of, you're like, yeah, you're not wrong.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, she's telling the truth when a lot of people are not. And so it does endear you to her for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

So my sense is, and I didn't dive too deeply, but my sense is that this book is getting pretty mixed bag reviews. It has a 3.55 on Goodreads. It seems like kind of a you love it or you hate it type book. And I'm curious if you dove into the reviews at all. Like, what are the main problems that people are having with it? And like, do you feel like you understand why it would be something that one person would love and another person would not?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. This surprised me. I barely kind of briefly skimmed the reviews and the negative ones in particular, because I just loved this book. And I was like, some books you read and you're like, oh, I understand exactly why someone's not going to connect with this. But I really struggled to understand why. And then a lot of them I saw were about Florence being a terrible mother and being unlikable and making horrible, dangerous decisions.

[Becca Freeman]

And well, we've talked about my theory before. This is not a new theory. But I do think that in general, people find it harder to read unlikable characters than they do to watch them on tv because if they're reading it, they have to be in the inner monologue and they have to be in the head of Somebody who's doing that. So for somebody who is a parent themselves, maybe reading Florence, like, leaving her kid makes them feel so uncomfortable because they're having to put themselves in her shoes versus, you know, when you watch somebody do it on tv, you feel slightly more removed. And you can say, I would never do that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder, like, I would love to see the breakdown of the negative reviews, like, what percentage of those people are actually parents? Because that might totally. It might be so uncomfortable, like you said, to imagine leaving your kid in this way or neglecting them, arguably, in a lot of ways. And it just might be too painful to read. I would recommend this book to almost anyone. That's usually my judge of a crowd pleaser, is if I would recommend it to a wide swath of people, which I would.

[Becca Freeman]

But on the flip side, I was gonna say I think this is a book about a mother and a book about motherhood that you could read and enjoy not having or wanting kids.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

And I pitched it to a couple of my friends who definitively don't want kids and usually probably wouldn't be all that interested in reading something that largely veers around motherhood. And both of them were really intrigued by the premise just because of how snarky and because of the mystery angle. So I think it has really big crossover appeal. You're right. Like, it would be so curious if there was a filter on Goodreads where you could be like, what's the rating from Parents versus Not.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, definitely.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm curious if maybe, like, on a microcosm basis, because I've seen both really good things and really bad things in our Facebook and Geneva group. I saw a bunch of comments of people who were like, I'm loving this. This is so fun. And then I also saw people who were like, I'm dnfing this. So, I mean, I think that's kind of like every book has its fans and its detractors, but I'm curious if people will self report if they liked it and were apparent or not.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think it's also just in a lot of ways, a story about being a woman and making choices that go against what is expected of you, which is, to me, highly relatable and interesting. And I'd read any book like that.

[Becca Freeman]

So you're much more of a thriller person than I am. What worked for you most in this book? Was it the character study? Was it the mystery? Was it the combination of factors, like, what worked for you here?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think it all worked together. So well, but to be honest, like, I was laughing out loud within the first chapter or two. And that, to me, I don't do that often. So to me, that was the thing that made it really unique and special. And the mystery itself, like, when she found the book bag in his room, I was like, I'm hooked. I need to know what happened. I don't know. It's the combination. It's more like the pacing really worked for me. And all of it, I guess. All of it. The balance. I don't know. What about you?

[Becca Freeman]

I think I cared the least about the mystery of all the factors, Like, I thought that the humor and voice was really what made it for me. I also really liked the story between her and Jenny. And I remember specifically there was a phone call between them where Jenny's like, don't you have any other friends to call or something? And Florence was like, no. And Jenny was like, I don't either. And she's like, there's something freeing about admitting that I really loved the idea of these two women who don't have other friends and are both prickly in different ways, kind of navigating, forming a friendship like, that I really loved. More so than the investigative aspect of their friendship and. Or whether Alfie Risby, who you were like, oh, he sounds shitty. Gets found.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. It's also like, I knew that nothing bad was gonna happen at the end. You know, I knew that it was gonna be resolved and it was gonna be mostly fine. No one was gonna die.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh. You know, I did feel more invested about the mystery having to do with Marta, the neighbor's girlfriend, than I did about Alfie. Once that happened and her sister showed up, I was like, oh, wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I guess people didn't die for that. I forgot about that. Yeah. There was an element to this book where I feel like it zigged where I expected to zag. You know, it was just kind of like. Like the relationship between her and Jenny, the sidekick of it all, like you were saying. It's just. If I would have had to predict it, it's so different. And that makes it so much more surprising and engaging, I think. Well, I also want to talk to you about the former pop star, early 2000s ness of it all. So we will talk about that in a minute, but first, let's take another ad break.

[Becca Freeman]

So in my fantasy world, I have an idyllic outdoor space where I can sip my morning coffee and host long, full of laughter dinner parties on long summer nights. But in reality, I live in New York City, and the only outdoor space I have is a dinky little fire escape. So I'm going to need you all to maximize your outdoor space in my honor and then invite me over. And so if you've been thinking about leveling up your outdoor space this summer, you've got to check out Wayfair. They have everything you need from patio sets and lounge chairs to fire pits, gazebos, lighting and more.

[Olivia Mentor]

I am very much looking for lighting still to make our garden glow when I do host dinner parties. And Wayfair is really the best option. I've been browsing and it's a little bit overwhelming actually, because there are so many choices at so many different price points. I kind of just might try like a bunch of them. And the great thing is because Wayfair has such affordable great pieces, I can try a bunch of different stuff and just throw it out there and see how it looks. I want to look like I'm in a glowing, well lit, sort of white Lotus type scene. That's what I'm going for. Wayfair makes it so easy to find exactly what you're looking for with their extensive filters for color, price, material, dimensions and so much more. And if you are in a time crunch, they have fast, free shipping. Even on the big stuff.

[Becca Freeman]

Wayfair has something for every style in every home, no matter your space or your budget. So don't wait. Make your outdoor space your dream oasis today with Wayfair and enjoy it all summer long. Head to Wayfair.com right now for a huge outdoor selection. That's W A Y-F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every Home.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I personally loved the plotline that Florence was a former pop star. Although I have to say, it kind of was like a much more background detail than I was expecting going into it.

[Becca Freeman]

If I had to pick one element that I would have liked more of, it was her time in the girl group.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I totally agree, but I do think what was there really gave a lot of insight into her being the way that she is. And I appreciated that. And it really did give me a bit of sympathy for her because, gosh, it was just rough in those days. The celebrity culture of that time period. I forget the exact years that she was in the pop band in the book, but I'm assuming early 2000s, right?

[Becca Freeman]

Probably like 2010s. If Dylan was 10 and she got pregnant at 20.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, I guess that checks out though. Those were like the Paris Hilton days. The maybe not Britney Spears, but I Feel like celebrity culture was just so intense and slut shamey. And I just thought it was a great detail, personally.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I am thinking about this a lot with my book too, about kind of the darker aspects of fame, specifically in that era. And there's this Howard Stern interview with Lindsay Lohan that I keep coming back to and keep thinking of. And she's talking about. I mean, it's the whole era when she was out partying, but, you know, specifically, like, around the time when she was in that car with Paris Hilton and Britney Spears and Lindsay Lohan just says something to the effect of, like, I was 19. Like, didn't you ever do anything stupid when you were 19? Like, you were in college, going out, getting wasted, hooking up with people, and nobody was taking pictures of it and, like, posting it on TMZ the next day. And I feel like it was so othered and, like, moralized of, like, how dare you? When it's like, I don't know. That's kind of normal at 19. It's abnormal that she's such a public figure and people are reporting on it, but, you know, to sensationalize it in such a way. And also, I don't know, like, who's making good decisions at 19? Maybe some people.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, no one. I don't think anyone.

[Becca Freeman]

Jenny? Yeah, yeah, maybe Jenny.

[Olivia Mentor]

This interview I was listening to with the author, which we can link in the show notes, but she was talking about how the concept of upskirting was a thing during this time period, which, like, that is nuts that we somewhat normalized paparazzi attacking these young women and taking photos of them, like, from beneath their skirts. And then I think it was the one time Paris Hilton wasn't wearing underwear or something. And like, that was somehow branded as her fault. Right.

[Becca Freeman]

You know, like, not the person trying to shove a camera in her vagina.

[Olivia Mentor]

Exactly. Like it is. So it was so bleak and. Yeah, just horrible.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, the Britney Spears memoir, it just recontextualizes so much of how she was judged and what she was actually going through and why she made the choices she was making. And, you know, like, there was just so little empathy for anyone during that time period.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, like zero like none at all. And everything was so, like, sexualized and rough times. But switching gears, I did want to talk briefly about Dylan because I kind of loved how weird he was. And not weird, but just, like, quirky. And he had his own very specific set of interests that were very separate to anything his mom loved or understood. I. What did you think of him as a character.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I thought he was the exact right child for this character to maximally frustrate her and to set the plot on its way down this road. I remember him being described at some point as, she had such a good metaphor for his black and white thinking. I feel like I was like, yes, I understand exactly who this kid is.

[Olivia Mentor]

I remember exactly what you're talking about, too. And I read this, like, more than a month ago, I think. So she clearly did a good job at describing him.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Did you think he did it at any point?

[Olivia Mentor]

There were a few scenes where he was really creepy.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Olivia Mentor]

When he was just, like, awake at night. And I was thinking, is it gonna go this dark? But I kind of thought, I don't think that's it. I don't think that's it. But she did a really good job at making me question that. What about you?

[Becca Freeman]

I definitely thought he did it at some point. And I thought that, you know, the whole thing was that she was framing other people and it was actually her son and, like, she was going to have to grapple with. I'll do anything to save my son, but my son is guilty. And, like, where does that leave me?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that's been a plot device that I've seen in quite a few things. And personally, it always works for me. Like, you know, is your child guilty? And then they're let off, but then later you find out that they're actually guilty, and you have to live with that. I can't remember the exact examples.

[Becca Freeman]

We don't want to spoil it for anyone. Even if you could remember the exact examples.

[Olivia Mentor]

Exactly. Exactly. But, yeah, I went back and forth on this. I really did.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. What did you think of the ending?

[Olivia Mentor]

I liked it. It was really different than I thought it would be. But, you know, some books I'm not really reading for the reveal, you know.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I kind of knew it was going to be a romp and it was going to be completely unrealistic. I did really enjoy the final twist. Dylan being spoiler alert. If you're here listening. I guess Dylan being part of this, like, environmental activism group, because I was really wondering what was going on with the guy across the street. And I was very stressed out by it, but I thought it was funny. Like, I thought it was kind of interesting. What did you think of that?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, I have two things I need to talk about here. So first, let's put Dylan aside for a second, because that's my problem with the ending. But as far as Adam goes the neighbor. I mean, I don't think they were necessarily. And maybe there were, and I just didn't catch them. But I don't think there were many signposts along the way that he was actually the one who had kidnapped Alfie. But I did think it came together nicely. Like, it all made sense where it was like, oh, yes, his girlfriend was having an affair with Alfie's father. This was like a revenge thing. And then he had this house where he was keeping him. Like, all of it made sense once it was explained. But I don't know that there were like necessarily clues along the way, which was fine for me. And I thought there were good red herrings, like the brother, the secret love child brother who, you know, maybe wanted the inheritance. Dylan. Like, I felt the serial killer, the strangler. Like, I felt like there were really good red herrings along the way where it wasn't like, yeah, we knew that this was gonna be Adam. If anything, it was like he was a little too squeaky clean. Until he wasn't. But it really worked for me. The only thing that didn't work for me was the Dylan of it all. Because I don't think it was sufficiently explained that he was in this environmental activism group. Like, I got that Mr. Foster, the across the street neighbor, was in it and he like, made a nail bomb. But I don't feel like it was, like, adequately explained. Her son was on the ring camera going for a mysterious walk alone. And I'm like, we're supposed to think that he was like, going to do environmental terrorism. Like, what? Why did they let a 10 year old to be part of this? Like, it felt like a little bit added in where I was like, I didn't need that. Like, you could have just left it alone.

[Olivia Mentor]

See, I thought kind of the opposite. Like, you didn't necessarily need it. But I thought it gave it a little bit more because, like, he was clearly doing something weird. Like, you know, he was clearly doing all these things for some reason. And I think more interesting that he was doing something kind of questionable than he was like, no, I hopscotch down the road.

[Becca Freeman]

Like, he should have been like, catching crickets. He was like, they're nocturnal. I was out there catching crickets.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I like that he's out there making bombs. I really do.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't. But I don't think that was sufficiently proven or explained.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think that's valid.

[Becca Freeman]

Draw your own conclusions. Was he a tarot? And you're like, what? Like, I feel like you need to give me a few more details here.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I get that feeling, and I kind of felt like that about the ending as a whole, which there's so much going on because there's all these red herrings. And then I thought the woman from the nail salon was kind of like, I expected some other deeper connection to the whole thing, but I was just along for the ride. I was like, you can throw whatever at me at this point.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. And it was fast, but I get.

[Olivia Mentor]

Where you're coming from.

[Becca Freeman]

And the unfolding was happening in such a way that I wasn't angry at any point.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think one of the most exciting things about this book is that it is going to be a TV show and it's gonna be led by the people who are behind the bear, which is such a fascinating mashup to me. Like, what are your thoughts on that?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I feel like there's a show that is kind of similar to this. It's a UK show. It's called I Hate Susie. And I think the mother is an actress, not a pop star, but it's like a struggling actress who's, like, kind of a terrible, selfish mom. So I'm like, it's very similar to this. Not that it was a hugely popular show, so in that way, like, maybe they will just do the same thing over again, but I'm like, little close.

[Olivia Mentor]

I had never heard of that. Do you think, like, the humor of the bear would. That's hard to ask, though. I was going to ask if the humor of the bear would meld, but, like, the first season's funny. The second season, I was like, what nightmare have I walked into? But I don't know. Is it a pairing that makes sense to you? Like, could you see it?

[Becca Freeman]

I can see it. It wouldn't be my first guess of who the perfect team was to adapt this, but I can kind of see it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can, but I'm really interested to see if they go more goofy or more like, who are you picturing?

[Becca Freeman]

Like, who are you picturing as Florence? Who are you picturing as Jenny?

[Olivia Mentor]

So this might just be because of the name, but for some reason, Florence Pugh came to mind. And I just think she's. She has this edge to her.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that could be good.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know if I've seen her in much comedy, but I think she's like a person who could do something like this, which is a balance of deep character work with humor.

[Becca Freeman]

I was thinking much zanier. Like, I was thinking, like, Juno Temple.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that Would be perfect, probably. Yeah, that would work.

[Becca Freeman]

That's zanier than I feel like, Florence Pugh would be, like, more grounded, snarkier, darker.

[Olivia Mentor]

Because of the bear of it all. My mind goes to that. They're going to make this very dark and not, like, goofy romp, which I think fits better with it, to be honest. But, yeah. Are there any other dream castings that you could see in this?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I think the obvious one is, like, who was the guy who played Draco Malfoy? Tom Felton?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Kind of needs to be Rollo Risby.

[Olivia Mentor]

God, he was so horrible, that character. Just the scene at, like, the talent show or whatever it was. Oh, I hate that, man. But that is a great.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't even know if I deserve any credit, because I think she might even compare him to Draco Malfoy in the book. So I think that's just, like, the obvious. But, like, I was just picturing that monochrome platinum hair, white skin, and I'm.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, oh, yep, it's perfect. Well, I'm looking forward to it. I am. I will watch it. I'll tune in same.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, just for the outfits. Like, I think that hearing Florence's costumes described would be really fun. I also hope you get to see more of the girl group in it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, me too.

[Becca Freeman]

Of them, like, schlepping around to, like, crappy places in London or, like, the uk, rather.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, yes. Like the early aughts of it all. The style. I think it'll be quite good. Fingers crossed.

[Becca Freeman]

Anyway, well, let's take a quick ad break and then get into some ED matter. Okay. So we've been complaining that the weather hasn't felt summery yet, but this week we're having a heat wave in New York City, and it is officially summer. And I'm also realizing that there are so many holes in my closet that need filling, but I don't want to waste money on pieces that I'll only wear once or be sick of next season. And that's where Quint comes in. Their clothes are timeless, lightweight, and at such a good price point.

[Olivia Mentor]

Recently, I have become obsessed with Quince's white T shirts. And so obsessed, in fact, that I now own four of them. They are just this combination of being so soft that I would happily sleep in them, but also looking just polished and clean. They never look wrinkled. They don't shrink too much. They're just the perfect staple piece. And Quince, honestly, across the board, makes the best basics. They also have 100% European linen shorts, dresses from $30 swimwear and a great selection of Italian leather shoes and purses. And the best part is that everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands. By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middleman, Quince offers luxury without the markup. It really is the best bang for your buck.

[Becca Freeman]

And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. And premium fabrics and finishes give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com bop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com bop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bop.

[Olivia Mentor]

What are you obsessed with this week?

[Becca Freeman]

I have a real wild card for you. Milk Duds, the candy explained.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I'm familiar.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. So I have gone to the movies three times in the past two weeks, like, more than I have gone to the movies in the past three years, probably. And at one of them, I got Milk Duds, and, I mean, I'm gonna rip every filling I have out, but, my God, they're so delicious. And then I brought them home, and then I was, like, working my way through the box of Milk Duds and I finished them, and I was like, oh, I wish I had more. So then I got more at cvs and I'm like, wow, I am on a downward spiral that cannot end well with Milk Duds. Like, it will end in dental work.

[Olivia Mentor]

But, yeah, these are my mom's favorite. Oh, my God, they're so good.

[Becca Freeman]

I forgot how much I like them. I like caramel.

[Olivia Mentor]

They're delicious. But for me, it's like, I don't want to battle with the candy. Like, I don't want to have to rip them out of my teeth, which.

[Becca Freeman]

Is kind of like it's an activity and a food.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, well, it's perfect for that. It's really perfect for that. Yeah. I haven't had a Milk Dud in a long time, but they are delicious.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I love them. What about you? What are you obsessed with? Hopefully it doesn't end in a doctor's visit.

[Olivia Mentor]

I. No, I hope not. Anyway, I ordered a new pair of leggings, a new pair of shorts for walking, working out, whatever, from this brand called Vitality, which I had seen everywhere.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I feel like I get ads for them.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, my God, it's so good. They're so good. I love them. I'm wearing the shorts right now.

[Becca Freeman]

Are they like bike shorts or are they like, running shorts?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, they're bike shorts.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

And they're just so soft. They're compressive without being, like, tight. So they don't, like, dig in anywhere, but they still feel like you're held in. They are just soft. They're not shiny, which is key for me. I just. The hype is real. Hype is real.

[Becca Freeman]

You heard it in your first. What about reading? Did you get through anything else?

[Olivia Mentor]

I haven't. I'm reading a few things, some of which I really love, but I haven't finished anything yet, so. So nothing to report. What about you?

[Becca Freeman]

No, I just finished this. But I'm hoping that next week I'm gonna have a lot to report because I'll still be on my little book break, and I'm hoping to get in a lot more reading. But this week I had to read this for book club, which I enjoy.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't wait to hear.

[Becca Freeman]

Not a hardship. Well, if you are looking for something to read, we have our July book club pick, which was picked by our listeners. July is always listeners pick month and listeners voted in the Facebook group. And we will be reading Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid.

[Olivia Mentor]

This is.

[Becca Freeman]

This is her newest book. It just came out in June, and it is an epic love story set against the backdrop of the 1980s space program. I do not think I have heard anyone say, huh? That was just okay for me. Like, I have heard nothing but glowing things about this. So I'm very excited. I'm even more excited because when we talked about that Time magazine article a few weeks ago, it. Taylor said that she asked herself the question, what is my Titanic? And as a Titanic kid, the movie Titanic, not being on the Titanic. I'm not that old.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you for clarifying.

[Becca Freeman]

You're welcome. You're so welcome.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was like. I was like, was she. Was she on it? I know. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I couldn't be more excited.

[Olivia Mentor]

I have this. I bought it over the weekend and I am really looking forward to. To digging in. If you want to talk to us about any book, you can join us in the Facebook group, which is under Baton Paper Podcast, or in our Geneva group, which is also under Batonpaper Podcast. We're on Instagram @batonpaper podcast. And I'm on Instagram and substack liviamentor.

[Becca Freeman]

I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is@beccafreeman substack.com and we will see you next week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye, Sam.