B (2:30)

If you live in any of those places, you should go see Olivia in conversation.

A (2:36)

Yes. Please come hang out. My high is very similar so we're on the same page. But yes, that Tuesday, it was. The entire day was just absolutely jam packed. 7:00am we had a window for the Delivery of our bed, which I have.

B (2:49)

Mentioned to you before 7:00am Delivery window is wild.

A (2:53)

7:00Am to 10:00am. I had to be at the train at 10:45, so it was, it was a whole thing. But we ordered that bed back in November. I remember when we moved in three years ago, I was like, Jake, I don't even want to set up our bed because we're going to get a new one. And it took us three years to save up for it. But anyway, it is perfect and beautiful and I absolutely love it. It makes me so happy and it's like just what I imagined. So it felt really, really special to finally see it in the room even though it was a very busy morning. And then Becca and I had a quick interview for Bat on paper and then it was off to the train. And then I went to the Hachette offices and the little Brown offices to interview the publisher and, and President Sally Kim for little pod, which was really nerve wracking for me but really interesting. And then I got to go meet Becca and we had this delicious burger which I'm still thinking about. And then we went to the event like Becca said. And then I got the 9:30pm train home and it was just a really, really nice day. Oh, and in between there I got soup dumplings, which I don't have here where I live or at least I haven't found a good place. And, and it was freezing this day and it was, it was absolutely just the most, the most fun day. Oh, and at some point I was killing time. I walked into the McNally Jackson at Rockefeller Plaza and they had my paperback of such bad influence on the front table. So it was just such a nice day and it was so great to see Ashley and to support her and see how much buzz and acclaim her book is getting. And yeah, I just came home and I went to sleep in my new bed and I just felt like, oh, that was such a full, rewarding, wonderful day and I just, I liked my life. That's always a great feeling.

B (4:47)

That's wonderful.

A (4:47)

And we, we met new authors in line. We were standing in line, the signing line which was really fun and chatting and it was just a really good, a really good solid Tuesday.

B (4:57)

Agree. What about on the low side?

A (5:00)

Well, I mean this feels a little, I don't know how to say this but I mean the news, like just, can I just on the record just say fuck ice for just to put it out there because I'm continually disturbed by everything happening and I don't know what else to say other than fuck this, but that's how it feels like. I'm just so continuously angry at everything happening and everything I'm seeing. And I just don't understand how people are justifying treating other human beings this way and using children as bait. It is depraved. That's the only word I can think of. Like, this is not the kind of place I want to live. This is not the kind of country I want to be part of. It's horrifying.

B (5:49)

One of my best friends is in Australia right now, and he landed yesterday and took a taxi or an Uber from the airport. And the driver asked him where he was from, and when he said Chicago, the driver was like, is America okay? Like, it's so. It's, like, embarrassing to be an American, and it's like. It's disgusting.

A (6:10)

Yeah, it's. It's hard to know what to say or do. But I did find an organization that's in Minneapolis that's raising money in efforts against ice. So I will link that in the show notes if anyone wants to join me in donating, because I personally have just been, like, horrified, especially seeing scenes out of Minnesota. And I can't imagine what it's like to be there right now. Although I know this stuff is happening everywhere, but it seems especially horrifying there. Anyway, I just wanted to say if anyone else is horrified and sad and doesn't want to live in a place like this, I am right there with you. And I hope we can change things together at some point. I hope midterms give us all hope. Well, what's your low?

B (6:51)

I'm just gonna double down on that. Plus one?

A (6:54)

Yeah.

B (6:54)

Yeah, plus one. Well said. Disgusted?

A (6:57)

Well, same. It's hard to transition out of that. But we're gonna take an ad break and then we are going to talk about this book. This episode is sponsored by Caraway Home. I have to toot my own horn here a little bit and say that one of the things that I am most proud of this year so far, and yes, I realize it is only January, but let me live is cooking at home more. I enjoy cooking so much and it saves me so much money, but it very quickly gets pushed to the wayside when I am busy. But I have committed this year to cooking most meals at home. And I love getting to the kitchen every evening and knowing that I have a Go to cookware set that has served me well for so, so many years and. And will continue to do so. More than 100,000 people have rated their caraway cookware set five stars and I totally agree.

B (7:53)

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A (8:14)

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B (8:43)

Okay, into this book, let's start with a quick plot summary. So Margot is a PR exec living in D.C. trying to get pregnant while simultaneously house hunting. And when her realtor gives her a hot tip on a house that's about to hit the market, Margot becomes hyper fixated on this specific Bethesda dream home and the family currently living there, inserting herself into their lives and going to increasingly unhinged measures to get this house.

A (9:16)

Well Becca, this was your pick. So why don't we start by you explaining why you chose this one.

B (9:22)

Well, I chose it for a couple of reasons. So the first reason is that I just had such a great reading experience with this. I feel like this was one that just kept me turning the pages and I feel like January is a big reading resolution month and you know, people are trying to get back into reading. And this one felt like the type of book that if you wanted something that you could finish quickly that held your attention, that was fun. This felt like it to me. And also, as we know, I am a scaredy cat and I love the experience of a thriller, but I don't love all thrillers, which we can talk about more later in the episode. But this one felt like a very everybody safe thriller to me. We haven't done a thriller in a while so I liked that. But more specifically, I haven't talked about this yet, but as you have probably heard, I'm moving and I'm actually buying an apartment which is crazy and scary and incredible was not my plan. I think it was something that I expected to do on maybe a 5 to 10 year horizon, but I did not expect to do right now. But when my hand was forced because my current building got sold and I'M kicked out of my apartment and I started to look around at rental prices. I was like, wow. For what I would be paying in rent, that could be a mortgage. And so I am taking the very scary dive into homeownership, solo homeownership. But anyway, I've been going through the house hunting process. I was, you know, house hunting from August to November. And so the. This hit me at a time when I was very much in the depths of it and I didn't murder anyone during my home search, but the emotions of it felt. So I was like, this woman's nuts. She's not completely wrong.

A (11:19)

Well, first of all, we've already talked about this, but congratulations. I think you should be so proud of yourself. I mean, what a feat buying in New York City. Like, it's. It's amazing and I'm so excited for you. But yeah, watching you go through this process and reading the book at the same time was definitely. It put it in a different life for me as well. Even though I am not currently in it as you are and have been.

B (11:44)

Well, tell me what you thought of the book. We haven't discussed this offline. I'd read this previously, but I want to hear what you thought of it.

A (11:52)

Yeah, I loved it. I mean, I read it in two sittings. I think I just breeze through it. I love a spiky main female character, so, you know, check. I was hooked right away. I thought she was really funny and really smart. It's interesting that you found it Scaredy Cat. Approved because we'll talk about the ending, but I found the twist it took at the end kind of disturbing. Like, not in like a. This makes the book a not enjoyable experience, but it. It made me feel more unsettled than I was expecting because in a lot of ways it is kind of like this juicy popco thriller, but there's something about it and how dark it got and the choices made that really left me feeling like, with this sense of dread and kind of scared in a way. But not in like, oh, this is going to happen to me kind of way. But we will get to that. But overall, I thought it was just so fun and again, maybe not the right word. Very smart. So readable. And I love an unlikable female character, which I know some. I saw some chatter in the Facebook group that people weren't into it, but that's my jam, as we all know. So you have hats made? I. I have hats. So I am very much on board.

B (13:05)

Well, I am curious because I feel like we didn't talk about this very much, at least on the air. While you were in your own home search process, when you were buying your house, did you feel like the experience here was representative of your experience or emotions?

A (13:26)

Yes and no. I think the main difference with our experience was that we weren't dead set on leaving. And in fact, I loved where we lived so much that it was less of a we have to find somewhere kind of feeling, which obviously Margo does have in the book. You know, it's. Her whole goal is to get out of this apartment. So that definitely changed it. And then the way it worked out with this house, we were the first people to see it. We didn't think they would accept our offer. In fact, our agent told us they probably won't and it'll probably get into a bidding war and go out of your budget. And I did go through the process of like writing a letter and really pouring our heart and soul into it. And I could certainly relate to this feeling of like, you put so much time, effort, energy, emotion, ideation, you know, dreaming, fantasizing about this place. And so it starts to feel like this is the only thing, you know, this is the thing. And then knowing that it could just all not work out is really, really disorienting, I think, and unsettling. So, yes and no. I think it never felt quite as intense, even though it is a very stressful process and it's much more involved than I ever expected it to be. What about you, though?

B (14:46)

I had two that were really specific heartbreakers. I think that I probably put in offers on six places during my search. In all of the cases except for the one that I'm moving to, it ended up going to a bidding war. And in most cases, I lost to an all cash offer, which is so heartbreaking. Like, yeah, this feels really entitled and, like, naive to say, but there was something about the process that I didn't expect, where it's like, okay, I have made the mental decision that I am buying a house, that I'm spending all of this money. I have the money for a down payment, which is not an insignificant amount of money. I have picked this house that you have listed for a certain price. Like, it feels, it felt. This is naive, but it felt like in my head, like, it should be like buying jeans. You know, like buying jeans is unpleasant. You probably have to go to a few stores. It's hard to find the pair. You. You maybe they're more expensive than you wanted. Like, it's not a pleasant shopping Experience. But then you bring the jeans to the checkout counter, you pay the amount on the price tag, and you. You get the jeans. But this was like, I've gone through this shopping process, and I have the money, and in some cases, I'm even willing to pay more than you've listed it for. And they're still like, no, no, no, thanks.

A (16:08)

Yeah, it's like, it's not a one plus one equals two kind of business, which sucks and is so unfair.

B (16:15)

And there were two places that I really loved and had my heart set on and I lost out on. And the process, you know, it probably took place over a week and a half or two weeks between seeing it, putting in the offer, it going to best and final offers, the decision process. And in that time, in every case, I'd. I'd really started to decorate it in my head. I'd started to picture, you know, how I would set things up, what my life would look like there. And it was so crushing to then lose this place that you'd already become mentally attached to. And obviously, Margot went to very extreme lengths, but in a smaller way, I was like, yes, I understand how destabilizing this process is and how frustrating this process is. And, you know, it's like a mourning process almost where you have gotten attached to this house and then you don't get it, and then you have to move on.

A (17:19)

It's a roller coaster, and you go really, really high and really, really low. Like, that's so destabilizing.

B (17:26)

Yeah. And also the feeling of, you know, in Margo's case, they're in a temporary apartment and she doesn't want to be there. In my case, I was like, I. I literally am getting kicked out of my apartment. I have to find something. And, like, the pressure that is really stressful.

A (17:42)

Yeah, I. One thing that I've become aware of more and more, too, as I'm like, you know, in my 30s and getting into. Getting into adulthood. I guess I've been here for a while, but it doesn't feel like it. Some days is. I remember when I was hearing about when we were first thinking about getting a house, the all cash offers and stuff. Like, I just can't believe that's people's reality, you know, Like, I. I cannot understand how people have that sort of money. Also the amount of people I know or who get down payments from other people, namely their parents. Like, you know, we all have different privilege, of course, but, like, I didn't even know that's a thing that happened until I started talking more and more to people. And it's true, like, you don't realize what you're up against until you're out there in the world making offers and. And all that. But it kind of shocks me.

B (18:35)

It feels like the game is rigged a little bit.

A (18:37)

It does, yes. It definitely does. Sometimes. For sure.

B (18:42)

Okay, I want to go back to something that you touched on, that. There was a lot of chatter in the Facebook group about Margo being an unlikable character, which I don't disagree with, and that being a turn off for some readers. So I'm. I'm really curious how you felt about her and more broadly, if you have theories about what makes a book with an unlikable narrator work.

A (19:05)

H. Well, I love this question. I found, obviously, Margot is unlikable. Like, she's. She says things that are completely inappropriate. But also, I think that's so funny a lot of times. And I. And I think it worked for me. And there was enough backstory where I personally did have empathy for her. Maybe I would have liked a little bit more, given how off the rails she went at the end, because it was hard for even me to justify. Not justify what she did, but to see the threads, I guess, at that point. But I think that's the thing that makes an unlikable narrator work for me, is if you can understand why they are that spiky and why they are that cold or that cutting or that mean. If you can get from A to B in your mind, to me, it makes them much more real than if they're charming and fun and perfect. And so I think that's it for me. I. I don't know. How did you feel about Margot? Were you. I mean, I guess you probably weren't surprised that people found her unlikable, but.

B (20:10)

No.

A (20:10)

Did you find the reactions interesting or.

B (20:12)

I agree that she was unlikable. I also agree with you that I felt like I understood why she was the way that she was. And throughout the book, she gets even more fodder when you find out that her husband is cheating on her. Like, I was like, well, you're very extreme, but I understand why you are so filled with rage.

A (20:32)

Right? Yes.

B (20:34)

And I found her entertaining. I think, for me, one line is, I find it very hard to read something more literary or less plot forward with an unlikable main character. Like, I can think of a few books that just didn't work for me because it was more of a character study of somebody deeply unlikable versus, I feel like there Needs to be plot, there needs to be paciness, their unlikability needs to be like moving things forward versus just stewing in their head. And in this one, I felt like so much happened in this book and there were so many twists and turns that for me, what was pushing me forward is what's gonna happen next versus being mired down in how mean Margo could be.

A (21:33)

Yeah, I get that. I mean, when it comes to what was gonna happen next, obviously there's a huge, very cringe worthy scene where she goes to the dinner party with Kurt and Jack. And that's pretty early on.

B (21:46)

Yes.

A (21:47)

And they realized that she's kind of scheming. And I kept thinking in that scene, by the way, like, how utterly disturbing that would be. Not to keep using that word, but like to realize someone is in your house with these ulterior motives. But at that point, where did you think it was gonna go?

B (22:04)

Olivia? I think that scene is what made me sit up and say, oh, wow, like, I wanna talk about this book. This is a book club pick. Because I thought that was gonna be the scene that came at, you know, the third act twist at, you know, 80% of the book was going to be that they found out that she was not who she said she was or that she had ulterior motives. I thought the whole book was going to be her just kind of getting deeper and deeper into this life. And you know, the plot line about her kind of lying to get close to their daughter was so uncomfortable. And I really saw that being more of a driver in the book. And so at, you know, let's call it 30% of this book. When I got to that dinner scene, I was like, I have no idea what's going to happen next. Like, does she move on to a different house? Does she like what happens now? And I think that's really fun and exciting. I am obviously not the best thriller reader. Like I think of Grace, like she reads a lot of thrillers and she's very good at guessing twists. And I'm much more of a passenger princess thriller reader where I'm like, just take me along. I'll be surprised. But this really shocked me how early that happened, which I thought was really fun. Did you have any theories about where it was gonna go?

A (23:22)

Well, I mean, I heard your pitch of it, so when I got to that scene, I kind of figured that was the scene that you had mentioned. Yeah, I mean, I knew it was gonna go off the rails, but like I didn't necessarily predict it was gonna go so, so dark and so, so murdery. And you know what? I think it might be because of the package of this book. Like, when you look at this book, you don't necessarily think murder. You know, like it doesn't even really read it. Thriller to me, when I look at it, which I think is such an interesting choice because I think there's a version of this book and this cover that is very much murdery.

B (24:08)

Thriller, popcorn, bloody footsteps in a foyer or something.

A (24:11)

Yeah, exactly. And I wonder how that would have changed my reading experience because it really did surprise me how I've, for lack of a better word, how thrillery it got at the end, because I thought it was going to be more like, more psychological, I guess, which it is, but in a different sort of way. Yeah, I don't know if that even answers your question, but I've been thinking about that a lot as I keep looking at the COVID and seeing it absolutely everywhere.

B (24:38)

Yeah, that's such a good point. Well, okay. I want to talk about scaredy cat books. Okay. So for me, I think my trigger is random violence or anything that I can self insert into. So if somebody is being stalked, any random act of violence feels disturbing to me.

A (25:02)

Okay, keep going. I have some questions about this.

B (25:04)

Okay. Versus with this. First of all, Mario's the perpetrator of it. So I was not scared for Margot. Like, she was never. She was in danger of not getting the house, but she was never in danger of being murdered. I wasn't scared on her behalf. I was certainly scared of what she was gonna do, but I wasn't scared for her. And as the character that I'm kind of like, who's guiding me, I was like, okay, she's in control. But I love the experience of a thriller and like that pacing is of what's going to happen next. I can't go to bed because I need to keep turning the pages. And one thing that I thought this book did so well is it did a really good job with pace and with building tension, but using more mundane forms of tension, like up a big work presentation, which I think everyone can empathize with, that you have this gut sinking feeling of like, oh, God, I screwed this up at work and my job is in danger, or, you know, her finding out about her husband cheating. Like, the tension in this was not driven by violence. And I'm. I'm really curious to hear from you. As someone who also writes novels that I'd classify as scaredy cat approved that are still very suspenseful, how do you Think about leveraging tension and pace to maximum effect.

A (26:30)

Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I mean, I find it very difficult, actually. But for me, I just try to write a cliffhanger at the end of chapters.

B (26:40)

I was gonna say, I feel like in Little One, it was where the chapter breaks happened, was very intentional.

A (26:50)

Thank you. Yes. Yes, it was. I think often, like, I'll write a chapter and the ending, even down to, like, the sentence it ends on will feel really right. And it's the other stuff I really have to play with and, like, manipulate, you know, for that tension and that cliffhanger to feel earned in some way. But with this. Yeah, you're totally right. That violence is not the thing that moves it along, although it does play such a big part at the end.

B (27:15)

Yeah.

A (27:15)

And I think the thing that I found kind of borderline upsetting about this book is that I don't think those women deserve to die.

B (27:24)

No.

A (27:25)

In any way, shape or form.

B (27:28)

They didn't. But I feel like there was a steady build of Margo becoming unhinged to the point where I didn't. I didn't put it past her.

A (27:40)

Yes. By the time we got there, it felt like, okay, this is going to happen. But to me, the idea of someone who I would not look at and be scared of in any way, who I would welcome into my home, who I would hang out with, who I would get coffee with, who I would say, hey, can you watch my dog? Having this whole secret world of darkness really, really scares me. So it's funny to me that, like, that doesn't affect you at all. Whereas me, it really freaks me out. And I found interesting. Really, like, really bone chill.

B (28:13)

I think there was something about the tone of this that, like, not that the book was comedic, but that I was bought into Margot as a character and I understood her motivations. I understood why she was the way that she was. I understood that she was being continually pushed to increasing lengths of nutty behavior. So I believed that she could do this. But I. I didn't feel like she was a real person, and I didn't feel like I was like. It felt very fiction to me, you know? Right.

A (28:47)

It's.

B (28:48)

Versus something that has a more campy, almost. Campy. Campy is the perfect word versus something that is more serious. That does make me worry. The campiness of this really defrayed, you know, the same as, like, a Finley Donovan book, you know, where you're like, yes, there is an internal logic to this book. I understand that this all Fits, but it's. You're kind of playing it for laughs.

A (29:13)

And, like, I'm interesting.

B (29:15)

Yeah. Like, I'm the campiness of it. I was not, like, I need to worry about my neighbor murdering me.

A (29:22)

Yeah, that's good. I guess I didn't necessarily think that either. I think it just something about. Something about it really unsettled me, which is probably the point. Like, it's not that it necessarily scared me, but I closed the last pages of that book and I just had this feeling of, like, oh, like, oh. And maybe it's that I don't think the husband could die. You know, Like, I don't think that's the interesting choice here. I think that's the expected choice.

B (29:50)

Yeah.

A (29:51)

But maybe it's just, you know, women being killed in their apartments alone, that is an image that I don't sure love. But I think you're definitely right that there is a campiness to this and there is an unhingedness and off the rails that, like, okay, it was always going to lead to this point. And I actually, I think that the choices that the author made at the end with who dies and how are a lot bolder and more interesting and edgy than something like, okay, yeah, the husband dies.

B (30:23)

Yeah, I agree.

A (30:24)

And I don't think, you know, everyone's going to agree with those, but I think it was clearly the choice that's. That's fresher. And I salute the author for that wholeheartedly.

B (30:35)

Okay, let's take a quick ad break, and then we have way more to talk about, including the ending.

A (30:45)

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B (32:23)

Okay, so you were talking about the intentionality of choices that the author made with the ending, and that being, you know, very surprising. I think one thing that really worked for me about the book was the. The Kurt plot line and him having this secret. First of all, it was really interesting that he was a gay man. So, you know, you could pretty confidently say that it wasn't a sexual harassment situation when you found out that Dottie was a woman. And so it was like, oh, what is his secret? But also that it made it bad guy versus bad guy. If Margot was trying to screw somebody who was a good guy out of this house, or, you know, was going to these lengths against somebody like Jack, for instance, who was, as far as we know, a good person, I think that would make her so much worse. But I don't know. With Kurt, it felt like a meeting of the minds. Like we're both terrible people and they're gonna go up against each other. I don't know. When that came to light, did it change how you felt about Margot?

A (33:28)

I think it made it easier for me to justify her actions in the same way it made them. I don't even know if she ever had to justify her actions, obviously, but I was gonna say it made it easier for her to justify her actions. I don't even know if she needed that.

B (33:43)

No.

A (33:44)

By the end. But, yeah, I thought it was super smart because his category of, like, bad person, he's not, you know, as you said, sexual abuser. He's. He's not a killer. He's just a shitty guy taking advantage of his students in this. This kind of intellectual property realm, which is obviously still horrible, but, I mean, I guess that's the argument. Does it justify what she did? Yes or no. But I thought that was such an interesting choice. Although he, too, came out okay in the end, I guess.

B (34:15)

Yeah.

A (34:16)

Which is interesting.

B (34:17)

I mean, there was also an aspect of this that's like almost a level, deeper thriller aspect for a writer. There's something extra horrifying about your one star reviewers tracking each other down and like colluding against you.

A (34:32)

Honestly, I would love that. Please go hang out together, but leave me out of it.

B (34:37)

Just talk about yourself and try to get your house for them, for themselves.

A (34:41)

No, no, no. I just need them to go hang out and like vent to each other instead of on a Goodreads page or an Amazon review.

B (34:48)

I think there's also something really interesting about the class dynamics that Kurt brings into this. Like in Margot's backstory, her parents were bad with money, they lost their own dream house. Versus Kurt has this rich father who's able to pay off Dottie for her silence. And it's like, why do you get this house, this nice life you were born into? Privilege. It just reminded me a lot of the conversations around how disillusioned millennials and Gen Z are about the American dream being pulled out from under them. Where it's like, I've worked hard. In Margot's case, it's like I have the money for the down payment, I've identified the house and yet I still can't get it. And like this guy whose father runs a hedge fund who is plagiarizing his students work, he gets this nice dream life and like the inherent rage in that.

A (35:45)

Yeah, that's a great point. I totally agree with you.

B (35:48)

Yeah, yeah.

A (35:50)

What did you think about the husband character? Because again, I think the easy way out here is to make him, you know, the cheating villain. He dies, but that's not exactly what happens. So how did you feel about him throughout the novel? Cause there is an evolution. Like, were you surprised that he was cheating? Was that a twist for you?

B (36:08)

Oh, for sure it was a twist. Although I don't know that it was surprising per se. But you know, at the beginning of the book he's really the sane party. You know, there's the scene where they go out to dinner and he says he wants his wife back and he's worried about her. And you know, Margo is so off the rails and in her head she's being so condescending to him while he's seemingly legitimately worried for her health and emotional well being. And you know, in the beginning you're like, oh God, like this man married this psychopath. And you know, then you find out that he's cheating and you're like, oh, like the gloves are off. Like, I mean, Margot was already doing batshit things before she found out he was cheating, but it was just like gasoline on a fire where it's like, okay, your husband does suck. Lie to him, whatever. Like, I don't know, kill his girlfriend. No, not girlfriends. Not that. But it added to, like, Margot's stack of grievances.

A (37:22)

Yeah, it made sense when it happened, but I, too, was pretty surprised by it. And it was less a feeling of, like, okay, well, you deserve all this. And this. This just justifies how crazy she's being, because, honestly, the things that she's doing kind of make having an affair look very tame. But it kind of just made me feel like, oh, no. Oh, this is not gonna be good. Like, this is not gonna be good. We're going off the rails even further.

B (37:52)

And to be clear, he. He wasn't a necessarily a great husband to begin with. I thought there was a lot of really interesting. Even before we found out he was cheating, I thought there was a lot that was really interesting about the power dynamics in relationships and, like, the inequity of emotional labor where, you know, she was talking about her fertility journey and, you know, what she had had to put her body through physically for them to get pregnant and how it didn't seem like he fully understood or appreciated that and just, you know, even small things about him expecting her to make dinner, things like that. Like, there was. I. I thought that it was, like, a very. A much softer commentary on emotional labor and, like, the extra emotional burden that women have to carry in relationships. Even before, when he was, on the surface, a good husband or a not cheating husband. But then, obviously, everything changed when she found his burner phone, and you were like, oh, wow, okay, there's more going on here.

A (38:48)

Yeah. And we haven't really talked about this aspect of it much because there's a lot going on. But the IVF part of all of it and the fertility stuff. I thought I saw someone write this in a review or comment somewhere, but basically the sentiment from them was, like, this process turns you.

B (39:03)

Yeah.

A (39:04)

Into, like, unhinged version of yourself. And I thought it was really interesting putting the fertility struggles up against the. The desire for the house and the search for the house, because I think. I can only imagine. But I would imagine that there is a similar sense that once you set off on this path and it becomes this thing that you think about all the time.

B (39:24)

Yeah.

A (39:24)

And people are telling you, no, no, no. And you keep trying, and it's. No, no, no. Like, it just breeds this level of pressure and intensity, and it's all you think about in a way. That I hadn't really ever thought about. And, you know, when you consider both of those things happening at the same time, like, yeah, it makes a lot of sense that she would be. Not all of it makes sense. I'm not justifying the murder of it all, but, like, it just makes sense that you would be in a mental place that you'd never been in before.

B (39:51)

Yeah. Like the lack of power you have over outcomes with regards to your fertility. Then you become hyper fixated on something external that it feels like you can or should be able to control. And then even that she can't make Will into existence. And so, you know, it was such an astute pairing to put those two things together.

A (40:15)

Yeah. And they were all connected. Like, the. The part that really stuck with me and made me really sad for her was like, oh, you. You shouldn't take out the loan for IVF because it'll affect your mortgage or getting a house. And that kind of circle just made me so sad for Margo in a lot of ways.

B (40:32)

Yeah.

A (40:32)

And I'm sure that's the reality for a lot of. A lot of women going back to.

B (40:36)

Her marriage really quickly. You know what this reminded me a lot of? Have you read that article in the Cut about women quiet quitting their husbands?

A (40:46)

I've heard of it.

B (40:47)

It was like a super viral article from a couple of months ago, but basically the thesis was that women in their 40s can't actually afford to leave their marriages because of the cost of housing and, like, just financial realities. And so they basically are just, like, not getting divorced, but not investing anything in their partners. And obviously this was such an extreme example, but Margot's commitment to her husband, even after she found out that he was cheating and she was like, no, I'm still going to keep him around, and like that it was never, like, I'm going to leave my husband. That she was so on this road about what her future would look like with a baby in the dream home, that it didn't matter that she quite frankly, hated her husband.

A (41:38)

Yeah. Oh, gosh. We should talk about the epilogue. Actually, the epilogue makes me think about kind of how she was just like, here we are together in this hellish reality, but I have my dream house.

B (41:48)

Yep.

A (41:48)

I wanted to ask you if you liked the epilogue, because I thought the last line of the actual book was perfect and I wanted it to end there so badly, I don't remember what it was.

B (42:00)

Oh, the last line of the chapter before the epilogue, you mean?

A (42:03)

Yes. Yes. What was it? Hold on, let Me get the book. Okay, so she's talking to the realtor on the phone, and it's. I unmute the phone. Derek, are you still there? I'm here. What's the verdict? A smile breaks loose across my face. So it's like they're deciding whether or not they're gonna actually get the house. But of course, you know that they are. But I just love this idea that it ends with her smiling and, like, getting what she wants. And then you're forced to think about, well, what happens from here. The epilogue, I thought was still good.

B (42:33)

I liked the epilogue. I liked the epilogue. Just fully reinforced her sociopathy of, like, this was all worth it. I have no regrets. How imperfect her life is still. That she discovers a new burner phone and that her husband is. Were led to believe, cheating on her again. But she has the house, she's pregnant, and she's like, I got what I want. This is my happy ending.

A (42:58)

But did you like the last part of the epilogue where it's like, oh, her husband is cheating again? Because I wasn't sure if it was supposed to be like, oh, she's getting what she deserves, or it's like this commentary on. She thinks she can control everything, but she can't.

B (43:14)

Or I interpret it as that her husband was so secondary that, like, this is still her happy ending, even though her husband. She has murdered somebody. She's murdered two people. Her husband is cheating on her. Like, to her, the ends justified the means. It highlighted her character that she was so calm about all of this.

A (43:39)

Interesting. I would love to know if the epilogue was always there or not.

B (43:43)

I would. I would guess yes.

A (43:45)

DM her.

B (43:45)

Yeah, I'm sure she. She'll tell you. Well, rewinding a bit, though. How are you expecting the book to end before we got there? Because you were saying that you were really rattled by getting to murder. Like, what did you think was gonna happen?

A (44:03)

I definitely thought that Natalie was going to be involved in some way because I couldn't figure out why she was so prominently in the book otherwise. But I don't know. I wasn't really sure. I definitely did not expect it to go the way it did, but I. I didn't really have any, like, fully formed theories in my head. I was reading so fast that I didn't have time. And that's to. To the credit of the. The pacing of the book.

B (44:26)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I felt confident that she was always going to get the house because.

A (44:31)

Right.

B (44:31)

The book would not be satisfying if after all this Then she just learned her lesson and didn't get the house and was sad. I didn't expect it to go to murder either, but I was so satisfied by the way that everything wrapped up and, like, the threading of clues in a way that I did not feel like was obvious. Like talking about how much Natalie's partying, like the fact that Erica drops in the murder house thing when she's talking about her interior decorator. Like her bringing Natalie to the open house. Like, I just thought so many things. Like there were probably like five or ten things that all came together. Like her using the recording of her husband asking her to open the door, and that she used that to get into the girlfriend's house.

A (45:17)

I did really like that part.

B (45:18)

Like, just so many small things that did not tip me off at the time, all culminating into her master murder plan. I found it so satisfying.

A (45:31)

Yeah. Yeah, I. I didn't have a problem with it at all.

B (45:34)

Yeah. You're okay with murder? I'm kidding.

A (45:37)

Yes, I. I fully endorse murder. You've heard it here first. No, I mean, I. I think it was well done. Like, as you said, the threads were well placed. It felt fully earned.

B (45:49)

I believed she was capable. Yeah.

A (45:52)

I just kept picturing that poor environmental clipboard girl in her apartment just being killed for no reason and, like, they affair with this shitty guy and the husband still being able to continue on having affairs. And I just felt it just. It gave me the feeling that A Series of Unfortunate Events sometimes gave me, which is like. Oh. Like why? But it was surprising. I think it was well done and as I said, fully earned. So. Yeah, can't complain.

B (46:25)

Yeah. So did you hear that the rights to this book were snapped up by Greta Lee from Past Lives, also from the Morning show for her to produce and potentially star in as Margot. Do you think this would make a good movie?

A (46:39)

I do. Or, like a series, maybe. Is it a movie, though? I guess. I don't know.

B (46:44)

I think maybe I just assumed that because it seems like there's such a start and finish to it that it feels like a movie to me, but I actually don't know.

A (46:52)

Hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think it could be an absolutely great movie. I just would love to see, like, Margot come to life in this specific way because I think really small choices and facial expressions and stuff could change, I don't know, change the feeling you're left with at the end, but have it still be the same in a way. So I. I'm just. I would be really interested to See the interpretation.

B (47:13)

Yeah. I think this would make an excellent movie. You know what it reminded me of? Did you watch that show on Netflix with Ray Romano and Lisa Kudrow?

A (47:22)

I don't think so.

B (47:24)

The premise was also. It was like they lived in this dream house and they were selling it. I don't want to spoil things, but there was, like, a murder twist to it.

A (47:33)

Oh, no, I didn't watch that as well.

B (47:35)

It was very campy. It didn't fully work for me. I think I trailed off after a few episodes. But I could see this being a very watchable show or movie.

A (47:46)

I think I'm going to a neighborhood that has a similar name. Oh. Because I was really curious, like, what this place looks like and if it's similar.

B (47:55)

I felt like I could picture it in my head. Like, I was just picturing this very step 40 type suburb with, like, the big trees. Like, I was almost picturing the suburb from. I know that's supposed to be Shaker Heights, Ohio, but I was. I was picturing, like, the suburb from. Oh, my gosh. What is that adaptation with Reese Witherspoon and Olivia Pope.

A (48:16)

Oh, Little Fires Everywhere.

B (48:18)

Yeah, I was. I was picturing, like, the type of town from Little Fires Everywhere.

A (48:23)

Yeah, totally. I could see that. I'll watch it. I'll be there.

B (48:26)

Same. Same. I feel like this type of book is a very, like, specific micro genre of, like, unhinged main character. If people enjoyed this book, do you have other books that you would recommend to them?

A (48:41)

Yes, I was thinking of one particular book the whole time I was reading, and that's A Good Person by Kristin King, which is out in March. This is more unhinged than this book. If you want to read an even darker, like, just completely off the rails character, but very, very, very funny. I can't recommend this book enough. Kind of like, Best Offer Wins. It has a gone girl sort of flavor, but it's about this woman who has this situationship, and she ends up hiring, like, an Etsy witch to cast a curse on him, and he then dies. And it's just a horrific delight is how I would put it.

B (49:22)

Okay.

A (49:24)

But I laughed so much. And that's out in March. And then another one that I was thinking of a lot is all the Other Mothers Hate Me by Sarah Harmon, which we did for book club last year. And it definitely gave me the same sort of unhingedness. Though I would say that Margot and Best Offer wins kind of is going downward. Whereas I would say the main character and all the other Mothers Hate Me is kind of going. Getting slightly better as the book goes on.

B (49:50)

She's also so tempered by the fact that she's motivated by loving her child.

A (49:56)

Yes, for sure. But I think both of those are great options. Did you have any in mind?

B (50:02)

I know I've read other books that I feel like I would comp to this, and I couldn't think of a single one. But you know what came to mind that I've heard is, like, an epically unhinged main character. Have you heard about Julie Chan is dead?

A (50:13)

Yes, I have. I've heard good things.

B (50:15)

I've heard that that is an incredibly unhinged main character. The premise is this woman has a half sister or a sister that she's estranged from, and the sister is an influencer and she dies suddenly and the character decides to, like, take over her life.

A (50:32)

Sounds very fun.

B (50:33)

I've heard it's.

A (50:34)

But also, yes, unhinged.

B (50:35)

Incredibly unhinged. Well, shall we get out of book discussion and get into some ED matter?

A (50:40)

Let's. What are you obsessed with?

B (50:48)

Well, Olivia, I'm so glad you asked. I am obsessed with my Holonov Heated Rivalry Thirst calendar. A completely unauthorized calendar from Etsy. My friend Ashley sent it to me. I've never pressed by so fast on something, you know? So in Secret Santa, I was saying that my friend's husband was going to make a sexy pots calendar for me, pots being their dog. And it has not materialized. And so here we are at the end of January, and my corkboard needs a calendar.

A (51:21)

And here, here's the perfect one for you.

B (51:23)

It's so perfect. I'm looking up at it right now, just looking into Shane Hollander's sad eyes.

A (51:31)

Also, spoiler. We are doing a heated rivalry episode.

B (51:34)

So I feel so victorious that Olivia is gonna watch it. I'm so excited.

A (51:40)

We're gonna have a very spicy, steamy set of episodes for February.

B (51:44)

We'll have anyway, because we have heated rivalry, and then we have obscure erotica. I gotta find mine. I feel in a tremendous amount of pressure after some of the unhinged erotica I have found in the past. I can't. I can't go backwards.

A (51:59)

No. That does terrify me after the eggs. But I'm ready. I'm ready. Okay.

B (52:04)

I'm so excited for you. I'm so excited for this episode. I'm so excited. Okay.

A (52:08)

What about you?

B (52:09)

What are you obsessed with?

A (52:10)

I am obsessed with this video that's going viral, which is the cast of Hamnet in the final scene. So they're at the Globe or the set that looks like the Globe, and they're all dancing in full costume. There's hundreds of people in the crowd to. I don't know if the name of the song is We Found Love in a Hopeless Place, but what is the name of that song?

B (52:31)

That is the name of the song, the Rihanna song.

A (52:32)

Oh, we Found Love. Yes. We Found Love by Rihanna. And it is just so delightful, especially after watching the movie last week, which is incredibly sad and very beautiful. But to see everyone so happy is just. It was. It just made my. My heart so happy. And I could watch it like, a thousand times. Every time I'm sad, I'm just gonna watch it. It just brings me so much joy.

B (52:57)

I'm so happy for you. Have you read anything? I have read stuff, but I don't.

A (53:02)

I don't know. There's. I don't think there's anything I want to talk about. Okay. I. I don't think there's anything. You know what? I'll talk about something that I DNF'd. Over the holidays, I attempted to read the Shining by Stephen King. I have not read almost any Stephen King books. I know it was written a long time ago. Okay. I know it was written a really long time ago. I could not do it. I thought it was terrible. I know that Stephen King is Stephen King. I don't think this is gonna hurt him financially or.

B (53:30)

No. I feel like that's punching up to such a degree that you. You can feel free.

A (53:35)

I do not get it. I found it. The way women are written in it is horrifying to me. I was gonna power through because I was like, I have to see what. You know. This is a legendary author. I've read on writing. I thought it was great. I'm just gonna, you know, power through this book. I looked at a page, and I was at page almost 400, and I had, like, half the book to go, and I was like, I'm out. I can't. I can't do this. And so I DNF'd that. And I don't get it. But, like, if there are any. I doubt this. But if there's anyone listening who is like, a Stephen King fanatic, I want to know what it is about him and his writing, because. Couldn't tell you. Okay. Could not tell you.

B (54:15)

I certainly couldn't tell you.

A (54:16)

Having said that, I think the book is, like, close to 50 years old.

B (54:19)

Interesting.

A (54:20)

So that'll do it, I guess. But anyway, what have you read?

B (54:23)

Okay. I Had a very interesting reading experience. So I read Yesteryear by Carol Claire Burke, which is out April 7, and I would say this is probably one of the buzziest books coming out in 2026. And I was so curious. I mean, Anne Hathaway snapped up the rights to it way before it came out. It's being made into a movie with Anne Hathaway. There's rumors about this being, like, a huge auction in publishing for the book itself. And so I was so curious, and I spent the first, I would say, like, 80% of this book, like, pretty unsure. Not because it's bad. It is just so bleak. It is so bleak.

A (55:07)

So the.

B (55:07)

The premise of the book is this woman who's a trad wife, influencer, wakes up one day, and she's in the 1800s and has to actually live this traditional life that she's espousing online. And, you know, the book is really well done. It has great commentary about influencer culture and these types of influencers. And it's really well done. It is so, so bleak. The narrator's really unlikable. Some of the events in the book are, like, a little too close to current politics that you're just like, oh, I don't want to be reading a fictionalized version of this. And I was. I was almost gonna, like, sweep this under the rug and pretend I hadn't read it. And as I was getting to, like, towards the end, you know, with a speculative book like this, where you're like, how are you gonna wrap this up? And I was really wondering if it was gonna be, like. And it was all a dream, which would be the worst thing, like, the least satisfying. And I. I was like, I don't know how she's gonna pull this off. In Olivia, she pulled this off so spectacularly. My jaw was on the ground. Like, the ending of this book was so masterful. It made the whole thing worth it for me. I cannot stop thinking about this book and the ending and what she did. This is going to be huge. To be clear, when I say that the first 80, I was struggling through the first 80%, I think that's a me problem. I think that a lot of people who like darker books will love this.

A (56:45)

Well, I'm certainly looking forward to reading it, because it does seem it was made for me in a lab, potentially.

B (56:50)

Yes.

A (56:51)

And it is absolutely everywhere. So I am looking forward to hearing about it more and reading it.

B (56:56)

Oh, my God, I'm stunned.

A (56:59)

Well, if none of those appeal to you, there is my book, which is.

B (57:04)

Our club pick for February. I'm more excited about it.

A (57:11)

Yes. So if you would like to read Little One, you can pre order it now. It is out February 3rd, so plenty of time for you to read for our last episode of February and I'll give you the pitch. This is a story about main character named Catherine. It's a dual timeline story. In the past you see her growing up up in a very insulated, cult like community in central Florida. In the present, you see her in the city living a very controlled but independent, successful life. And it kind of all collides together and starts falling apart a bit when a journalist starts investigating the commune where she grew up. And I would really appreciate if you read it or pre ordered it or none of the above, that's fine too. But I am excited to do this episode.

B (58:01)

I'm so excited because I feel like, you know, when you go to an author's event, it's always a spoiler free discussion. And so, you know, a lot of people will get to hear that. But in this episode, this will be spoiler filled. So we'll get to ask you all the spoilery questions that we're wondering and hear all about the making of this book. I'm so excited for this conversation. I already have a list going in my notes app of questions for you.

A (58:30)

Well, I can't wait. And I'm so grateful to have the space to talk about it. Anyway, if you want to talk about any of this other stuff that we have discussed today, I know a lot of people have yesterday thoughts. I've already seen that in the Facebook group. You can find us in the Facebook group @batonpaper podcast. We're also in the BFF formerly known as Geneva Group under Baton Paper podcast on Instagram. We are under Bat on Paper podcast. I am on Instagram and substack oliviamentor. And as I said, you can pre order my book, Little One anywhere you would like to.

B (58:58)

This is our last episode before. Well, for listeners, before Little One is out in the world, that is.

A (59:05)

I cannot believe it. I honestly cannot.

B (59:08)

And I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my substack is @beccafreeman substack.com and we will see you next week to talk heated rivalry.

A (59:18)

Bye Sa.