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Bad On Paper
Chelsea Bieker on Comparison & Competition in Publishing
00:26:27
As a bonus to our episode discussing comparison and competition, we invited to continue the conversation, and how comparison and competition manifest for her, specifically within her publishing career and the strategies she’s learned to quiet these...
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- [00:18]
Host 1
We are so excited to have Chelsea Beaker with us today. Chelsea is the California Book Award winning author of three books, most recently the national bestselling novel Mad Woman, a a Book of the Month club pick the New York Times calls brilliant in its depiction of the long shadows cast by domestic violence. She is also the co founder of the Fountain, which is an online membership based platform of courses, audio visualizations and community with a monthly live class that helps writers connect to their intuition and cultivate a sustainable writing practice. And I am so excited to hear all your thoughts on comparison in writing. Chelsea, I feel like you're the perfect person to talk about this.
- [00:57]
Chelsea Beaker
Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here with both of you and I just love everything you're doing in the writing world and so inspired by you both. So I can't wait.
- [01:07]
Host 2
Well, we're so excited to have you. But maybe to start, can you tell us about a specific time or times that you've been affected by feeling comparison during your writing career?
- [01:21]
Chelsea Beaker
I don't think we have enough time for that. I'm like, where to begin? I mean, I think at every phase of my whole career or pursuing writing, there is comparison baked in. Right. It's sort of by nature of the design of a workshop where you are sitting next to your peers and you are talking about your work right after them. And there's this natural comparison and competition that I think can be born into those structures where you know, in my program it's like only two of us got tuition remission. And so right off the top there was like two writers that had been sort of granted this like crown that you didn't really know who's making these decisions. Why is one person better than the other? It just immediately sets off the group into feeling a certain type of way. And I don't think it's altogether negative, but I think it's immediately something as a writer you have to work through and move through. And I believe that pretending like we don't feel complicated emotions around it is actually what's going to get stuck and create writer's block. It's actually like admitting like, oh yeah, I feel a little triggered right now or I feel like my self esteem just got a hit or I'm feeling envy, I'm feeling jealousy, whatever, acknowledging that and moving through it. And we can talk about that in a deeper way in our talk, but like that's how we kind of like move on and put things right sized again so that we can get back to our Practice. I can't imagine anyone isn't touched by these feelings at one time or another in their writing life. Oh, and I didn't name a specific time, but no, I mean, the first.
- [03:09]
Host 1
Thing that comes to mind, maybe.
- [03:11]
Chelsea Beaker
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because at some point for all of us, we'll be on one side or the other of envy. Right. Will either be maybe envying something someone else has or will be the object of someone else's envy and kind of have to feel that as well. And I think in the thing I just mentioned about the two writers getting tuition remission in our program, I was one of those two writers. So I both was feeling the sense of that awkwardness, I guess, around my peers, of truly understanding where they were coming from, of maybe feeling frustrated or, you know, why did she get this and I didn't? And, like. And then later in my career, of course, feeling on the opposite end of that as well, or feeling competitive or. You know, it's funny, what I learned with the first publication of my first book was something that other writers later echoed was like, kind of a common experience. And I had a friend that called it, like. I think she called it the ghost book that is sort of like, comes out on the same day as yours is, in all the same roundups, is sort of just always right there. You know, it's like, oh, I will get this one thing, and that other book is right there getting the same thing and maybe even more. Like, it's just this sort of, like, haunting presence that feels prominent because of the way it's positioned. But actually, I learned very quickly, like, with time, it has nothing to do with me. Surprise. It's like. But we all will have that. I think, like, that one book that is maybe similar to ours in theme or for whatever reason, is being looped in together. And that's happened with all of my books. Like, there's always the ghost book that I'm like, oh, that book is getting more press. Or like, that book is just everywhere I am and then some. And actually, I feel grateful for those moments because it's just a cue to me that I need to do some processing around it so that I can release that charge. That's probably the more interesting work. And the trigger itself is just gonna be human and just is going to happen.
- [05:22]
Host 1
Yeah. I've read your writing before about hearing about a book that's coming out that's really similar to yours, which is definitely something I have been through before. And the moment of just panic that you go through, even though rationally you know that it is going to be a very different book and only you can write the book you're going to write. But I think the industry can be so competitive that we're always looking for these sort of points of comparison because it's like. Seems like the only way to gauge if we're successful or not. And so those ghost books are such an easy way to do that. That's such an interesting way to put it, though, because that is so true. I think for every writer I know, there is a book like that that just like, follows them through the whole publication process. And like I said, the industry is competitive, but I also feel that most writers are very willing to be as supportive as possible and to pay it forward. But there's that weird tension there where everyone's trying to help at the same time. It is competitive. Do you ever find that dichotomy a little bit difficult to navigate or confusing?
- [06:29]
Chelsea Beaker
Yeah, I mean, I think the idea of competition is interesting because in some way there is no competition. Right? Like, there is not one sanctioned way to measure these books. It's so subjective. Right. Like, I think we have to come to peace with that part of it, which is so infuriating at times or so. So confusing. And I work with authors a lot of times in that stage where they're finding an agent or they're going through their first submission process, and it really keeps me grounded in the way it can feel when you're getting rejected. It's very hard to parse out why. Right. Like, the rejections are all over the map or they're not really conclusive. It's just because we're operating in a realm of art and. And a realm of opinions and, like, personal taste and like, what they had for breakfast that day. It's like, it's actually impossible to carve out, like, a true competition. But yet there's these outside markers of winning, right? Like these awards that are there to remind us, like, you didn't win this, or, like, that can feel kind of mysterious or harsh even. But I think the longer I'm in it, just knowing that there will never really be a rhyme or reason to any of it. And I think we all know this on some level, right? It's like all we can control is our own writing and all we can do is support the writers we love and kind of be part of this larger mosaic because it can be such a mind fuck in that way where you're like, how is this book better than this book, it's like, well, it's not, it's just not. It's just different. And somebody liked it more that one day, you know, so. So it's really tricky as an industry. I think psychologically it can be very difficult in that way. And I know for myself, it's like, I won't lie to say that those moments don't sting. It's so hard and emotional to put in so much work into a book and pour your true heart into it and then maybe not have it win something or get the recognition you had hoped for. And again, that's just part of that process of like, how do you move through that in a way that becomes productive and not stagnating?
- [08:50]
Host 2
I think to what you were saying, the subjectivity of it is so hard because, you know, you've worked 2, 3, 5, 10 years on something and you're just so desperate for any sign that it's being well received. But again, it is so subjective. And also on my end, coming from a business background and it's also not the most data driven industry or at least that isn't surfaced to authors. So I think there's kind of this like trying to read the tea leaves and you're just like, is this other book doing better? How is my book doing? Like, give me a number, Give me a scale of 1 to 10. Like, I feel like it turns me into the worst version of myself post publication, trying to get my report card. Like the Virgo in me wants to be like, okay, I did this. Now please objectively tell me how I did. And it's completely subjective.
- [09:41]
Chelsea Beaker
Yes. And that's why it's so hard and it is really mysterious. I think there are elements to the publishing industry that we could talk about for days that feel really hidden from us and like not immediately known. And I think it's starting to get better in terms of just information. Like, there's more information than ever available to writers now about these processes. But still, it's very hard to find your sales numbers. It's very hard to know. Like you're saying, like, those data points are kind of tricky. Or you're like, well, you could look at bookscan, but just know that it's wildly inaccurate. And you're like, yeah, why does nobody have these numbers? And there's elements that I don't understand. And I just, it's a lot of like feeling of sort of like surrender because you're just like, okay, I can't really control these certain parts of this. And I guess in that idea of competition, it's like because of some of that, I do think like we can let go of that more individual sense of competition. And just the longer I'm in it, that starts to feel like not as much like it matters. And not that there's not those moments, but you just start to get this bigger picture of how it's just not going to be like one plus two is three. It's just never gonna feel like that. So how do you create like structures that feel good to you? And I think there's lots of ways we can do that. Yeah.
- [11:07]
Host 1
I was gonna ask you, like, what are some strategies that you use to combat these feelings or move through them, other than just kind of feeling them, as you said? And what are some ways that you reacted to these moments at the beginning of your career versus now? And what are some easy differences that you can spot in your day to day work?
- [11:28]
Chelsea Beaker
I knew just from kind of having already been in therapy, already been in recovery for many years before publishing a book, I knew that those strong feelings or that sort of feeling, like the sense that something wasn't fair, or like that feeling of like I worked so hard and like this other person is getting so much more, or like that feeling of scarcity right when that crops up. I just knew that it was a cue for deeper self inquiry. And I'm glad that I knew that that surface feeling is not a capital T truth. The feeling is true. Like the feeling is really valid and to be acknowledged and held, but then allowing myself to just feel the stupid way I feel during that is part of it. It's like calling a friend, expressing it a safe friend. Like I would advise against like a public post about some of it. It's like, just have your inside thoughts, have your inside thoughts with your safe people that, that really understand you and are just going to be like, yeah, totally, that sucks, or whatever. And then, and then it's like moving through in those more intentional ways. What does that really look like? I mean, I do it through a lot of like journaling. Usually what happens is as soon as I start investigating it deeper, I know that it's connected to an inner child wound of abandonment. Not being loved, not being accepted are like the core things that a lot of stuff just goes back to that and these like highly competitive, highly specific realms that I find myself in in like the literary world or growing up, I was a competitive gymnast. Like these very difficult crafts that are highly competitive and they're perfect playgrounds to like have that original trigger light Up. So I recognize that. And then it's really a huge reason why Kimberly King Parsons, another brilliant writer, and I created the fountain because we did this process for so long together where, like, we would have this personal processing together, and then we would call it Putting it through the Machine. And we'd be like, all right, I'm gonna go put it through the Machine. And what that meant is that we would do, like, a meditative visualization process around it paired with some journaling to get to those deeper layers. Cause as soon as you figure out, oh, the reason why this is bothering me so much, it has to do with this deeper part of me, the sooner you can exercise it out, and it sort of loses its power. And within the platform of the fountain, we created these guided visualizations for things like envy. And there's one that I love where you actually take a walk with the person who you're feeling envious of, and you see them as a little child next to you, and you're both little children walking together. And it's like, it's this way to reduce the situation down to this extremely human level and to find compassion and love for this feeling that you're having. And also this person that is also, obviously just a person who's also has some of the same dreams and goals and yearnings that you do. And on that level, you can really relate to them. And, I don't know, it's like this beautiful experience, but it's happening kind of on that more subconscious level where I believe that deeper healing really happens. So that when I come out of that, I do feel like I've moved something in a really somatic way, and I can kind of move on with my day, you know? So it goes through the machine, and then we come in on the other side, and it's just lost its power. And you're like, okay, now I can just get back to work. So that's kind of what it looks like for me.
- [15:14]
Host 1
Super interesting. I love the idea of keeping a photo of yourself as a child on your desk. And I know a lot of people who do that. So this is an interesting version of that that's, like, expansive and applies to the people around you, which I think is really cool.
- [15:26]
Chelsea Beaker
Yeah. And I think it's really important sometimes to remember that. I mean, I don't know, maybe I'm interpreting the idea of competition wrong, because I immediately go to some form of envy. Like, that's how I think it probably shows up in the writing world, just because we're not like, Playing basketball on a court, like, there's not like this direct competition. It's sort of happening in this other realm of your own perception where the other person might not feel competitive with you in any way or even know who you are. So. So it's very individual. It's very psychological. And it's like, it's sort of this way to have compassion for yourself, meet yourself in that place, place of feeling, and not feel bad about it. I don't know. So often I think we move to that place of, like, I shouldn't be feeling like this. I should just feel happy for other people. Why would I have this feeling? And it's like, well, of course you have that feeling. You're a human. Did you think you weren't? Like, it's just about acknowledging and holding that part of you that feels that way because it's going to happen. Right. And I don't know that we ever truly graduate from it. I will say that over time, it's lessened for me, or it's like the feeling of it moves through really quickly, but it doesn't mean it doesn't still happen at times.
- [16:35]
Host 2
So I'm also really curious about your experiences in groups. Like, for instance, being in an MFA program or you work with other writers through your work with the Fountain. Does comparison ever come up for you there? And in your MFA program, for example, like, were you ever open and honest about it with each other, or is this something that's always kind of just like your inside feelings, as you said? I really like that phrasing.
- [17:03]
Chelsea Beaker
I mean, I guess in the sense of an MFA program, it feels more like it's this bubbling thing under the surface of, like, every interaction, you know, or, like, it is present because you're in these, like, physical spaces together. But now that I'm not in those spaces so much, it's is more this thing that feels sort of an individual perception that I'm just having. Right. Like the ghost book idea. It's like, well, I might be feeling that about this book, but the author of that book probably isn't feeling that about me.
- [17:36]
Host 2
Like, they probably have feeling that way about ghost book. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
- [17:41]
Chelsea Beaker
Yeah. And it's funny, I think, like, one of the big things of the Fountain that we try to practice in that community is figuring out, like, how do you share about your wins? Like, we have an area of the community where it's just called share your wins. And it's this really beautiful way to practice sharing good news. As, like, we do a lot of Sharing rejection and sharing difficult moments. And then also I think it's equally important, like, how do we gracefully share our wins and our highs with each other in a way that feels really held and accepted and safe and self celebrated? Because nothing feels worse than being like, this great thing happened to me. And then people, like, don't really want to hear about that, you know, And I think that by now I've cultivated a community that really does want to hear about that stuff and really doesn't feel threatened by it. And my writing group and my closest friends, I don't know how we've achieved it, but we have cultivated an energy where we really feel happy for each other with nothing in the way of that. And I want that for other writers. And I think that's why in the fountain we do this, like, practice of like, just share it. Like, share the thing that you're really proud of. And we're going to practice applauding you and like being effusive and really holding you up. Because that's part of this too. Like, that's part of being a writer. And feeding that well of art, I think is like, how do you learn to do that? Well, you got to practice it. If you weren't taught that growing up, which, which some of us weren't, right, especially as women who are often pinned against each other or competition just feels so fraught in that way, you know, it's. It takes actual practice to rewire our brains to figure out, well, how do we support each other in real ways that feel uplifting for everyone.
- [19:32]
Host 2
And I think for me, it's so much easier to feel comparison with nameless, faceless people who you don't know. And once you know somebody as a human being, a lot of that goes away, whether that's in your writing group or in an online space where you're an online writing group, it's like, I've seen how much work went in behind this achievement and like, I'm so happy for this person and they deserve it. Versus, you know, I think it's, especially with the Internet and the nature of social media, you know, you only see somebody's highlight reel. And so when you're thinking about this ghost book author who you've never met in your life and you don't know at all, it's so much easier to be like, oh man, like sour grapes about it, like, why didn't I get that? Because you don't know the failures, the hard work that went into it, the things they didn't get, how they feel about their own ghost, author, et cetera.
- [20:24]
Chelsea Beaker
Yeah. And I think one thing. I don't know if this is related, but it feels somewhat related. I had a wise person say to me once, and I guess this would require that you believe in reincarnation in many lifetimes, but they were saying, like, not everyone in this lifetime is meant to be struggling or that's not part of their story in this lifetime. You know, because sometimes you look around, you're like, wow, that person just seems to have it really easy. Or like, wow, how did they get to walk on easy street in this way? And. And then reminding myself, like, I don't really know the bigger spiritual picture here. It could be that this is the story they're meant to live out in this lifetime. And it's. It just is. And, like, mine is different and mine is going to have this certain texture that's going to require me to move through maybe these certain struggles that they might not touch. I loved that bigger picture because it really just took away that immediate comparison for me. And in my best moments, if I can remember that advice, it's helpful.
- [21:27]
Host 1
Yeah. I don't know if you've heard of this book called this Is Happiness by Niall Williams. I think it was a recommendation by Ann Patchett in the New York Times. And so I was like, I'll buy it.
- [21:37]
Host 2
Absolutely anything Ann Patchett recommends.
- [21:39]
Host 1
I was like, done. I'll check it out. This random male Irish writer. Why not? It seems good. And there's this line in the book that has stuck with me that is just. I think it's. I hope I'm not misquoting it, but it's. Everyone carries a world. And I always think about that because truly everyone is in their own stuff, in their own world, with their experiences that are from their childhood and from their failures and from their successes and everything in between. And it is very hard to remember in some moments. But you're right. When you do, it is so helpful.
- [22:11]
Chelsea Beaker
Yeah. And I think too, like, reminding ourselves that other writers are not the enemy. Like, there's lots of enemies in the world right now. Like, and your, like, peer that's writing, like, love stories or whatever is not one of them. Like, they're actually adding to a collective that you are a part of and like. And that you are proud of. Of. And. And you value. And it's just that we can lose sight of that when we're so in this tight, claustrophobic literary world. But actually zooming out and being like, none of these writers are the Enemy in my world, like, we're all kind of working toward a bigger collective thing that is positive and is important. So that's that bigger perspective that can be hard to tap into in the moment of the feeling. And so I just want to really note that for people, like, it's normal to not have that be your first reaction to seeing something that feels hard to take in or, you know, but ultimately, like, that is the bigger picture we're existing in.
- [23:15]
Host 1
Well, thank you so much for this. This has been so. I don't know. I just feel like I'm in a better mood now. I'm ready to go write something. Yeah. I appreciate you being here so much.
- [23:24]
Chelsea Beaker
Oh, thank you both so much.
- [23:27]
Host 2
Can you tell our listeners where they can find you online? Can find more information about the fountain? And I don't even think we mentioned your most recent book, except for in the intro. So give us, like, the quick pitch for Mad Woman and entice people.
- [23:43]
Chelsea Beaker
Oh, my God. I'm like, can someone else describe what it's about?
- [23:49]
Host 1
I can if you want. One of my favorites of last year.
- [23:53]
Chelsea Beaker
I mean. Okay, I would love to hear your description.
- [23:56]
Host 1
Oh, gosh, now I'm on. I'm like, wait, why are you.
- [23:58]
Chelsea Beaker
That's okay. You don't have to. Have to. Yes. Well, Mad Woman actually is just about to come out in paperback on August 5th, so if you are wanting a lighter version or a summer read. It's a story about a mother of two who's navigating sort of her daily life without letting her past intrude. She basically receives a letter from her mother in prison, and it sort of unearths a lot of her childhood story that she's really kept hidden from her family. And I wanted to write it because I think I was at the time of writing it, really in this cycle of wanting wellness and wanting the right supplement to kind of deliver me out of a lot of the trauma that I was carrying. And motherhood seemed to crack that open in me and make that really impossible. And I was kind of in this time of facing down a lot of demons from the past, and I wanted to write a book that explored what does it look like to be operating a daily life with this sort of bedrock of trauma underneath you? How does trauma really infect the day to day? And how does memory actually feel? Quite dangerous. And so I hope it's kind of a funny and dark and twisty book about complex PTSD and the stories that we carry of our families. But, yeah, still working on that elevator pitch. One day. One day I'll figure that out.
- [25:28]
Host 1
You'd think that'd be the easy part, but it's actually very hard.
- [25:31]
Chelsea Beaker
I feel I don't just have it written down for myself somewhere on my desk.
- [25:36]
Host 1
You did great.
- [25:37]
Chelsea Beaker
But I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do that and tell people.
- [25:41]
Host 2
Very quickly where they can find you online.
- [25:43]
Chelsea Beaker
Yes. Yes. So I'm just Elsiebeeker on Instagram and I'm on substack. I have a newsletter called make up youp Life. It's about creative practice and writing and all the ways that we can continue to make the work that only we can make. And then the fountain is@the fountainpractice.com and it's a membership based site. Tons of audio visualization recordings, courses, classes and community. It's also available as an app on your phone, so you can take it with you wherever you go.
- [26:17]
Host 1
Thank you so much.