Bad On Paper Podcast: Episode Summary
Episode: E. Jean Carroll on Writing, Grabbing Joy, and Beating Donald Trump in Court
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Guest: E. Jean Carroll
Date: August 20, 2025
Overview
In this lively, candid episode, Becca and Olivia are joined by journalist and author E. Jean Carroll. The main theme centers on E. Jean's new memoir, Not My Type: One Woman Versus a President, which chronicles her experience winning her civil sexual assault case against Donald Trump. The conversation moves fluidly between Carroll’s writing process, the personal impact of the public trial, the inner workings of American justice, her advice-giving career, and finding joy in daily life. The hosts and guest connect over the power of women’s voices, resilience, and creativity.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Write the Book? [08:23–10:01]
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E. Jean describes why she chose to write Not My Type after the trials, despite the pain involved in revisiting traumatic events.
- Quote:
“Donald Trump, as you know, is now rewriting history. So I'm an old journalist. Do you think I was going to let him make a record about what happened? No… I wanted everybody in the world to know what it's like to sit in a courtroom with Donald Trump just right behind me, where I'm so close that if I leaned way back, I could have grabbed him by the hair. So no way could I stay silent.”
— E. Jean Carroll [08:54]
- Quote:
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Carroll began documenting the trial daily, taking video notes (camera pointed away from her face) to capture the visceral details and emotions of the experience.
2. The Trial: Humanity, Teamwork, and Theatrics [11:31–14:27]
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The book is not just a legal record but a love letter to her legal team, whose close bonds helped sustain her during the trials.
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Carroll highlights the outsized, theatrical personalities in the courtroom—on both sides.
- Quote (on her lawyers):
“Two of my attorneys, Sean G. Crowley and the Duke of Ferrara, fell in love while representing me against Donald Trump… And Robby Kaplan, well, 50,000 books could be written about her.”
— E. Jean Carroll [11:52]
- Quote (on her lawyers):
-
Carroll and the hosts discuss “celebrity” defense attorney Joe Tacopina's role and the odd alliances formed through the legal process.
3. On Being a Woman Witness: The Politics of Appearance [14:27–23:47]
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E. Jean shares about being required to meet beauty standards for credibility in court—a reality she anticipated from her time in women’s magazines.
- Quote:
“I had been quite frank with Robbie, ‘Robbie, I gotta look fuckable, Robbie, I've got to look fuck…’ The jury had to connect the old lady sitting in the courtroom with the younger woman who was in the Bergdorf dresser… I wore the actual clothes that I wore in 1996.”
— E. Jean Carroll [18:32]
- Quote:
-
She describes detailed and sometimes absurd trial prep (“pause before you speak”), and the contrast with Trump, who ignored all decorum and court rules.
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On trial strategy:
- “Don't twist yourself inside out to please Donald Trump.” [23:47]
4. Defiance, Action, and Hope in the Trump Era [23:48–25:23]
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The hosts express fatigue with the Trump era; Carroll rejects demoralization.
- Quote:
“No. Like, I don't feel it… We gotta take action, action, action. That's what we gotta do. We cannot feel demoralized. We just have to review them… Each one of us fights in the way they can fight. …Rise to the battle, girls!”
— E. Jean Carroll [24:16]
- Quote:
5. 30 Years of Advice: What Women Want to Know [26:15–29:31]
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Carroll reveals she personally read every letter sent to her Elle advice column.
-
Three most frequent questions:
- How to find love
- How to get rid of love
- How to get love back
(Also, “purpose in life”)
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She often encouraged action: “Do it.”
- Quote:
“There were three main questions… how to find love, how to get rid of love, and how to get love back… Basically, I always had the same answer. Do it.”
— E. Jean Carroll [26:49]
- Quote:
-
Carroll reflects on how her advice would be very different today, given cultural shifts and the #MeToo movement.
6. Regrets and Changing Norms [29:31–31:23]
- Carroll regrets (and can’t bear to read) at least half her old advice—explains how expectations for women have shifted radically.
- She notes that change is slow and often requires multiple accusers for allegations against powerful men to be believed.
7. Finding Joy and Identity After Trauma [33:25–36:13]
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After hardship, Carroll finds joy in rural life, nature, pets, and maintaining a sense of delight in the everyday.
- Quote:
“What I do to keep myself reminding myself who I am, I just grab the fucking joy. That's it. I feel more myself when I'm happy than I feel any other time… I like my day. I like how I'm living. I love being old. Wait until you see.”
— E. Jean Carroll [33:37]
- Quote:
-
Carroll remains curious and upbeat about the future, including AI, even as the hosts share their anxiety.
8. On Writing: Process, Habits, and Substack [36:26–39:01]
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The conversation turns to writing routines:
- Becca writes 2 “good” hours a day on her novel, additional hours for admin/newsletter.
- Olivia is currently drafting, focusing on 1.5–2 hours per morning.
-
Carroll reciprocates with thoughtful interest and encouragement:
- “I'm fascinated by women of your age who are making their way as writers and business women who have a very popular podcast. Not easy.” [39:01]
9. The Art of Pet Naming [39:20–41:13]
- Carroll shares her playful philosophy of pet naming, introducing such classics as Bloody Mary, Miss Havisham Guffington Von Fluke, and her cat Vagina Tea Fireball.
- Pet names, like writing, arise from personality and time spent together.
10. Final Reflections and Advice [42:41–43:09]
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Carroll closes the interview with practical, motivating advice:
- Quote:
“No more depression. No more demoralized. We got to get off our lazy asses and stand up and walk outside. That's what we have to do. ... He can be beat. He can be beat. And I wrote an entire book to show you how it's done.”
— E. Jean Carroll [42:44]
- Quote:
Notable Quotes & Moments
- On the necessity of making a personal record:
“No way could I stay silent.” — E. Jean Carroll [08:54] - On trial memories:
“Every journalist listening… get those notes down because no way in hell would I have remembered all that stuff.” — E. Jean Carroll [10:39] - On legal team camaraderie:
“That was the kind of team I had. That's how close those attorneys were.” — E. Jean Carroll [11:52] - On beauty standards for credibility:
“I gotta look fuckable, Robbie, I've got to look fuck.” — E. Jean Carroll [18:32] - On not twisting to appease men:
“Don’t twist yourself inside out to please Donald Trump.” — E. Jean Carroll [23:47] - On resilience:
“Each one of us fights in the way they can fight. Each one of us. Rise to the battle, girls.” — E. Jean Carroll [24:16] - On grabbing joy after trauma:
“I just grab the fucking joy… I feel more myself when I’m happy than I feel any other time.” — E. Jean Carroll [33:37] - On the role of advice:
“Basically just shouting at the top of my life, you can do it. Let’s do it.” — E. Jean Carroll [29:31] - On what to take away:
“He can be beat. And I wrote an entire book to show you how it's done.” — E. Jean Carroll [42:44]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- 08:23 — E. Jean Carroll joins, explains why she wrote Not My Type
- 10:01 — Documenting the trial; nightly video notes
- 11:31 — The legal team and courtroom camaraderie
- 14:27 — Opening deposition: listing every man she’s slept with
- 18:19 — On beauty standards, aging, and court perception
- 23:47 — On not contorting oneself for Trump
- 24:16 — Refusing demoralization, calling for action
- 26:15 — Advice column: recurring themes and method
- 29:53 — Changing cultural norms, regret over past advice
- 33:25 — Finding identity and joy post-trial
- 36:26 — Carroll inquires about host writing habits
- 39:20 — Carroll’s philosophy of naming pets
- 42:44 — Final advice: stand up, take action, hope
Tone and Atmosphere
The tone is bright, witty, irreverent, and often laugh-out-loud funny, especially in Carroll’s anecdotes. Carroll is both sharp and vulnerable when recounting her trauma and triumphs. The camaraderie among women—whether in the courtroom, as podcast hosts, or in literary pursuits—pervades every discussion. Despite the heaviness of the legal story, the episode is ultimately a celebration of resilience, creative work, and “grabbing the fucking joy” wherever you can.
For Listeners
Whether you’re interested in the intersection of justice and media, the behind-the-scenes drama of powerhouse women's careers, or the lighter side of cats and creativity, this episode is full of wisdom, inspiration, and laughter. Carroll’s fierce optimism and depth make this a must-listen for anyone seeking practical hope in difficult times.