B (2:41)

I saw these on Instagram. I can't believe that you didn't have them custom made. They're such a perfect match. Like, what a find.

A (2:49)

Thank you. It was really serendipitous we intended to have pillows made, but we ran out of the fabric actually for the couches, so we had no more. There was no making matching pillows. But I actually think this is even more fun because it adds a little bit of dimension.

B (3:03)

Yeah, I really like that they're texturally a little bit different.

A (3:07)

Yeah, they're from Anthropologie and they have tons of different patterns and colors and I. They're just very, very soft. It's like a. I think they describe it as a luxe linen.

B (3:16)

Huh.

A (3:17)

I really like them.

B (3:18)

Well, they look great.

A (3:19)

Thanks. Well, what's your low?

B (3:22)

So my low is a follow on from last week's low, which was that I wasn't sure if I was getting sick. I was kind of feeling just not so great in the mornings. And pretty much right after we recorded, I realized that I think the reason I was feeling this way is because my heat was broken. So I turned on my heat and I didn't realize that it hadn't actually gone on and it wasn't heating my apartment whatsoever. So I think I was just cold. I was just physically cold. And it took until the early afternoon for my apartment to get to a regular temperature and then I would start feeling normal, so.

A (4:03)

Well, that explains it. That does. That does add up.

B (4:06)

Yep, that does add up. So it was a whole rigmarole. Two guys had to come out to look at it. One guy said something like, I've never seen anything like this before. And I was like, oh, that's never something you want to hear about. Something he's trying to fix involving a gas line.

A (4:23)

Always encouraging.

B (4:24)

But he figured it out. The heat is working again. I'm feeling fine. So all's well that ends well.

A (4:32)

Great. Problem solved.

B (4:34)

What about you, Diavolo?

A (4:35)

I don't really. I don't think I have anything worth discussing or interesting. Okay, so I think mostly highs lately.

B (4:43)

Great. Should we take another ad break and then get into discussing this book?

A (4:48)

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B (5:20)

In 2010, Brooke, Carrie and Eve were inseparable. But on the Fourth of July, Eve vanished and her case was never solved. Brooke moved away, but Carrie couldn't Let go her obsession driving her to become the chief of police. Now, 15 years later, just as Carrie is about to close Eve's case for good, an anonymous call provides a chilling new. And within days, a man's body is hauled in by a fishing boat. His murder is linked to a hotel a few miles away where the guest in the next room was none other than Brooke.

A (5:49)

Together, their stories unravel a web of lies, betrayals, and long buried secrets that lead to the shocking truth of what happened to Eve. The room next door. Three friends. Two timelines. One deadly truth. Go to audible.com the room next door to start listening today.

B (6:12)

Okay, Olivia, I don't quite know how to summarize this book because it is so expansive, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you the. The vague ball one and then we can talk about it. So the story follows a woman nicknamed Jordan who's in her senior year of college. And she gets entangled in a love triangle with two of her fellow English majors, first dating Sam and then Yash. And these relationships, and especially the latter, create ripples throughout the rest of her life. I didn't know how to summarize part two and three. There's so much there.

A (6:43)

I think you covered it. There is a lot, but I think that does cover it.

B (6:47)

Okay. I'm so excited to hear. How did you feel about the book?

A (6:53)

I loved it. I thought it was great. I don't think it's my favorite book of the year, but I loved it so much more than I loved Writers and Lovers, which is really interesting and we can get into more of that later. But. But yeah, I thought it was beautiful. I read it in one day. Less than that, actually. Like, I think over the course of maybe 12 hours. I read it in two sittings and it's beautiful.

B (7:16)

Oh, good. I'm so glad you liked it. I'm honestly relieved because I felt so certain that you would like Writers and Lovers when it didn't quite scratch the itch for you. I was worried about this one.

A (7:26)

I think her writing style is so fascinating to talk about and unpack, so I can't wait to. To talk through it with you. But it's so different than what I'm usually drawn towards, I guess that I still really appreciate it. But yeah, this was. For some reason, it just worked a lot better for me.

B (7:43)

Do you have any theories on why that is?

A (7:45)

You know, I think it was a little more focused, weirdly, even though it was like it spanned many, many more years. But the core of the story felt more clear to me, whereas writers and lovers felt a little bit scattered. And I didn't, like, attach myself to one part of it. Weirdly enough. Like, I think I expected to be super connected to, like, the writing and publishing aspect of writers and lovers or the love story, but I kind of didn't find myself emotionally attached to either. Whereas this one, you know, the love story is so clear and so beautiful, even if it's not necessarily a traditional. You know, the two people end up together at the end.

B (8:27)

Yeah.

A (8:27)

Structure. And I also really love, as we know, like, you know, what might have been and just dreaming of, like, different paths and the way life goes and. Yeah, I just. I really liked it. Do you have a favorite between the two, knowing how much you love both of those books?

B (8:46)

I think I prefer this one. I think this is my favorite book of the year so far. This book just really grabbed me by the heart. You know, I obviously loved the college chapter, the love story there, but I found the third part of this book, when Yash is dying, I found it so heartbreaking and tender. And I also. This sounds like a weird reason that it's one of my favorite books, but it felt so accurate to my experiences of being with people who are dying. And, like, her ability to portray that is so masterful. Like, just the mundanity of it, how much it has to do with food and chairs and, like, how stupid and how simultaneously important everything feels. And, like, I was just so blown away by that portrayal.

A (9:44)

It never felt melodramatic to me, you know?

B (9:46)

Yeah.

A (9:47)

Like, it felt very lived in and real and warm. It's just a strange word to use for such a hard series of scenes in a very cold, lifeless, loveless environment of a hospital. But, yeah, I totally agree with you. I thought it was really powerful.

B (10:07)

Yeah.

A (10:08)

Would you have read it if you knew how sad it was? I went into this, by the way, seeing so many listeners saying how much they were crying, the different places they were crying, the amount they were crying. I knew you were crying. And I went into this just like I Going into emotional battle. I was prepared to just be wrecked and. And I did cry. Jake was, like, watching football in the other room, and I'm just like, crying in my chair. But talking about the Katherine Numa book. We all won Possible things. That was a really hard read for you because of how much it. It hit in a. I would say a similar way. But would you have read this book if you knew how sad it was?

B (10:49)

Yeah, I think I was gonna read it anyway. Because I'm such a fan of writers and lovers that there was no way I wasn't going to read it. I think it would have lingered on my TBR for longer if I knew how sad it was. Because sometimes I feel like I have to gear up for a really sad book or be emotionally equipped. And instead, I just. I ripped the band aid. I read it before it came out, so there wasn't anyone talking about how sad it was. And it's so funny because I feel like a lot of people in the BFF group have been talking about how they were reading it on a plane, which was also my experience. I was reading it on a quick plane ride to Boston over the summer. And I think there's. Because the book is so short, you're like, oh, it's really packable. Oh, it's really. This is a good plane read because it's gonna be so quick. And I got to part three while I was on a plane, and I was like. I started welling up, and I was like, oh, we can't do this here. Like, I cannot have this emotional collapse on a plane. Yeah. So I think I would have, like, saved it longer for a specific time if I knew how sad it was. So I'm honestly kind of glad I didn't know that going in.

A (12:03)

Yeah. I steeled myself smart. So I wonder if I would have maybe cried even more if I was, like, not as prepared for the turn it was gonna take.

B (12:13)

Yeah.

A (12:14)

Okay.

B (12:15)

I think for once, it actually makes more sense to start at the ending of this book. So in the last line, it's revealed that the main character in this book is Casey, who is the same character from Writers and Lovers. Did you pick up on this throughout the book since you just recently read Writers and Lovers?

A (12:35)

Yeah, I think I kind of went into it assuming it was her. And I will say the Jordan thing confused me a lot, but partially that's because I read the last page at one point before I was done with the book. And so I saw Casey, and I was like, why do they keep calling her Jordan? And I know they do mention why at some point, but it just, like, really confused me because it carries through the entire book. I picked up on it being her also because of the details, like the way that her mother had died and the circumstances are super specific and the golf team and the situation with her dad. So I definitely made the connection. But this is another thing where I kept seeing that they're, like, directly connected. So it's hard to explain, but, like, you can read either of them, and I feel like it's a complete experience. What did you think of that? Because you've read both, too.

B (13:27)

I did not pick up on it. I read Writers and Lovers when it came out in 2020, and then I reread it for this book club. When I first read Hart the Lover over the summer, I had no idea. And I had to be told somebody on Instagram after I finished, it was like, did you realize that it was the same character from Writers and Lovers? And I was like, no, I certainly did not. Like, the book completely worked for me, even not realizing that. But one thing that I thought was so interesting was I went to a book event for this book at the Strand where Lily King was in conversation with Ann Napolitano, and she was talking about the realization that it was the same character and it wasn't something that she knew when she was writing Writers and Lovers, and it wasn't something that she even knew at the beginning of this book. And she said that while she was writing the first part of it, she knew that there was a time jump. She wrote the whole book to get to Part three, basically. And she was trying to think of who the character's husband would be after the time jump. And then she had the idea that it was Silas, the boyfriend or love interest character in Writers and Lovers, and she wrote that down. And she said that she kind of thought of it as a placeholder, that she was like, I don't know if they'll let me do this or I'll change it later. But then she, like, kept writing and kept it that way. So it's really interesting because I went back to read Writers and Lovers and it's not as if this narrative doesn't fit, but there's no reference to any of it. So, like, there's no reference to her having been pregnant and given this baby up for adoption. There's no mention of Yash, there's no mention of any of the events in Part one, But it still worked for me because it almost felt like it could have been something that she was repressing. Like it was too painful and she was repressing. So it was not there. But also it was not contradicted in any way. Like, it fit. The only thing there was one tiny, tiny detail that didn't fit was, which was that in Writers and Lovers, she's getting kicked off her insurance and she goes to all these doctor's appointments and at the gynecologist, there's some questions about her fertility, which does not match to. If you read the books in tandem, it would have been that she's already had a baby and so she's worried about if she can have children, which I guess, you know, your fertility can change. But it doesn't quite fit. But that was the only detail that in any way contradicted it. Like, she never talks about a college boyfriend. She never talks about living in Paris. But like, she doesn't talk about doing something else during those times. So it doesn't not fit.

A (16:23)

Yeah, I think maybe that's sort of the confusion. Not confusion, but like the disconnect. I felt like. I think it's clear that she didn't write the first one with the second one in mind. And I also. I don't necessarily know if they needed to be connected in this way in any sense. You know, I think it would have stood on its own, like, completely without this little connection. However, from a creative standpoint, I just really like the idea of, like bringing another character back in this way. I feel like it must have been so much fun for her to think about and to like, experiment with.

B (16:57)

Yeah, I love it. It's so ballsy too.

A (17:00)

Yeah. Yes, it is. I wonder if her editor, did she talk about that at all, the event, if her editor knew that it was going to be connected in this way.

B (17:09)

Well, she said that she doesn't let anyone read her drafts until very late in the game. So she self edits and she does, you know, five or six or seven drafts on her own, and then she shares it with her writing group, who they've been together for 20 years or something, and then she does another big draft off of their feedback, and then she sends it to her agent. And then after her agent, she sends it to her editor. So her editor was getting it fairly late in the game. It was a solid whole thing by then. But she said her editor was supportive.

A (17:44)

Oh, well, I mean, I see why. Yeah. Must have been a surprise, though. Can you imagine the delight if you're like, oh, oh, this is connected.

B (17:53)

Yeah. Well, okay, now let's look back to the beginning. I thought the first lines of this book were so genius. It opens with, you knew I'd write a book about you someday is the first line. Did you find this opener as compelling as I did?

A (18:08)

So? No. Like, I didn't remember it when I got to the end of the book, but I saw you put this question in the outline and it made me think of the second I read it. So there's this song I really like by this Guy, or it's a band, I guess, named Fink. And he has a song, and there's a lyric that is, this is a song about somebody else, so don't trouble yourself. And I've always loved that line as, like, the sort of start of a story where, like, clearly it is about that person, but you're like, this is about somebody else. Don't worry about it. So it's kind of the opposite of this. But for some reason, it made me think of that song. And I like the idea of a story that's a story within a story like this. Like, I wrote this, this about you and all the things that need to happen. I love stories about writers and people creating things about people. So for some reason, it made me think of that song instant I have the lyric on my bulletin board. So I don't know if, like, I want to start a book someday in this realm, and that's what made me think of it. But, yeah, I guess it did stick with me in a different kind of way.

B (19:10)

It just feels so gossipy. Like, there's something about it that's just instantly intriguing, where it's, like, addressing it to, oh, you always said I'd write a book about you. Oh, like, okay, what happened? Like, it must have been juicy. Or, you know, there's also something a little. I guess it's probably meant to be read as bittersweet once you get to the ending. But when I first read it, I was like, oh, things ended badly. If you're saying this, it ended badly in a different way. But I was like, oh, what happened?

A (19:37)

Yeah, I mean, especially when much of the first section is about Sam. And the whole time I was like, my God, are we supposed to be rooting for this person? Like, I was like. And then it. It started to click to me pretty soon.

B (19:50)

But, yeah, well, let's talk about that. So the review for this book, the Minnesota Star Tribune. I think this is such a great line. It says, yes, the triangle is absolutely writer Lily King's favorite shape.

A (20:05)

That's. Yes.

B (20:06)

What a good line of copy. What a good line of copy. And it's true, I guess my only experiences are with writers and lovers and euphoria. But there's a triangle in both. And there's a triangle here. And I feel like. Well, I feel like love triangles can be hard to write, and I feel like readers can get angry sometimes about love triangles. You were saying you were, like, very scared that you were supposed to root for Sam. Like, what was your mental journey in the first Part of the book I.

A (20:37)

Went into it with, there is a sort of love triangle in writers and Lovers, if I'm recalling correctly. And I didn't love that one. So I was kind of like, oh, here we go. And then when I really didn't like Sam, I was very, very confused because I was like, what is happening? But I think as it went on and it made more and more sense to me, I really liked it because it just felt so real to me that this would happen, that in college you'd be in this type of relationship that brings you to this other person, and it's a little awkward. And yeah, like, it felt very, very real. Did you like the love triangle in Writers and Lovers? First of all, I guess you did because you love that book. But did you like this one more? Did you. Do you find one more engaging?

B (21:17)

Well, I don't think that Writers and Lovers to me, is a romance. I think it's a grief novel that she's grieving her mother and feeling lost and is trying to figure out her path forward in all aspects with regards to her career, with regards to relationships, where she's gonna live her place in the world. And so I didn't love the love triangle, but I didn't feel like that was the point necessarily. It was just like she was trying on identities versus here. I agree with you. I, I thought that this was so true to life of, you know, the type of relationships that you're in when you're 20 or 21 and, you know, oh, this is the guy who asked you out. So this is the guy that you're going out with and, you know, is it perfect? No. But, like, you're not thinking about marriage. And so this is totally the type of, of relationship that it, it felt really realistic to me where it was like, the deeper you go, you're like, oh, yeah, Sam's not great, but he has this great roommate who I get along with really well. I, I, I thought it was really interesting. I will say on rereading, I was furious that Lily King made me root so hard for a man with a ponytail. The first detail about Yash is that he has a ponytail, which did not stick with me.

A (22:32)

I, yeah, I definitely blocked that out.

B (22:34)

Was not how I was picturing him.

A (22:37)

I blocked that out.

B (22:38)

Yeah. And I was like, oh, wow.

A (22:42)

That'S so funny. So there are three parts to this book. Yes. There's the college era, there's the middle part where Jordan is married and has kids, and Yash sort of shows back up in her life after the massive fallout of how their relationship ended. And then the third part where Yash is dying and she goes to visit him. Was there one that really spoke to you or that hooked you more than the others?

B (23:08)

I mean, I think the third part is what made this book my favorite book of the year. But that said, I don't think that the third part would have hit as hard without specifically the first part. So that couldn't have been where the novel started. That couldn't have been the entire story. So I liked the third part, but, like, the first part informed it. And also, as you were saying, the novel is really short. I was cruising through it, so I never felt bogged down in any part of it. But, yeah, I mean, the third part is what really did it for me. What about for you?

A (23:44)

I loved the second part so much. You did? Yes, I did. I thought there was something so tense about it and, like, this really interesting. And the dynamic of her being in her house with her kids and seeing this person she hasn't seen in so long and her husband meeting him and the dinner, and I just. Him interacting with her kids. I just was, like, on the edge of my seat the entire time. And I felt so emotionally invested in that point because it just is such a complicated set of feelings. And then, of course, you bring the pregnancy and the adoption into it, and it's just that much more overwhelming. So, yeah, I was, like, fully in at that point. I would have read a hundred more pages in that scene, to be honest.

B (24:35)

Oh, wow. Well, I have. Once we get to later in the discussion, I have some facts that are going to blow your mind that I learned at this reading.

A (24:43)

Oh, I'm looking forward to that.

B (24:45)

But before we get to the other parts, one of the other key aspects I want to talk about in part one is the introduction of the card game Sir Hincomb Funnybuster that indirectly gives the book its title. And it, like, recurs through each of the three parts. And as far as I can tell, it's not a real game. When you Google it, only this book comes up. Or if it is a real game, it has a different name. But her publisher did release a set of rules for how to play it.

A (25:15)

That's funny.

B (25:16)

I don't know that it sounds like a fun game, to be honest with you. It kind of sounds like very genteel Go Fish.

A (25:22)

As I do with most rules of games. I blacked out when they were explaining it for those few lines. I was like, okay, I don't care.

B (25:28)

Well, we can link in the show notes the rules of play if anyone wants to play it. But for whatever reason, this detail made this book feel so real and so lived in to me. Like, it just felt like, you know, in the first part, it was whatever. And then at one point or two points, Sam writes her a letter and signs at heart the lover. And then Yash writes her a letter and signs heart the lover. And so, you know, I really liked it. But then in the second part, when her kids know the game and are so like, it's become a family tradition and. Oh, yeah.

A (26:02)

And when they're like, wait, you know this game too? That was one of my favorite parts.

B (26:06)

Yeah, yeah. Like, it just. It felt so. I don't know, it was like. It was such a great detail for me.

A (26:14)

I liked it too. I wasn't as attached to it as you were, maybe. But one thing I did really appreciate about it is I kept wondering and the many, many thousands of times I heard people talk about this book, I was like, where the heck does that title come from? Like, I couldn't figure it out. And so that's actually one of my favorite parts of reading is when you get to the moment in the book where the title clicks if it's a little less straightforward. And I really did like that aspect of it. And then the note and how it actually turns out to be Ash signing it and. Yeah. So I love it.

B (26:45)

I kind of feel like we. Obviously we can't play on air, but I kind of feel like we have to play at some point.

A (26:51)

The game. Yeah.

B (26:52)

I don't know.

A (26:52)

The card game. I can't even tell you the last time I played cards. Maybe. Did they talk about the game at the. The event that you went to at all?

B (27:02)

No. No.

A (27:03)

Oh, interesting.

B (27:04)

But she did talk about her daughter was there and her daughter hated the title and said, you're going to ruin your career if you name the book Heart the Lover. She thought it was too cheesy.

A (27:17)

Oh, see, to me it doesn't read as cheesy at all. It reads as, like, literary and different and like, it makes you ask, like I did. Where the heck did that come from? If someone out there feels particularly emotionally attached to this book, I just want to say that Sir Hinkomb Funny Buster would be a great name for a pet.

B (27:35)

Oh, what a good cat name.

A (27:37)

Yeah. So if you're like, this book changed my life, I think that would be a great way to pay tribute to it. Also. Just a great name.

B (27:43)

What a good call out. How do you picture Sir Hickam funny Buster? I kind of picture him as like a genteel rabbit, to be honest with you.

A (27:53)

Oh, that's interesting. I kind of picture him as like Mr. Peanut with the top hat.

B (27:58)

As a human or as a peanut?

A (28:00)

A human peanut hybrid. You know, because he has the legs, he has the cane, he has the monocle. Right? Definitely a monocle, even if not in peanut form.

B (28:08)

But not like a human historical figure. We're both like anthropomorphizing different things. Like, mine's a rabbit, yours is a peanut.

A (28:16)

I was like a peanut shell. That's what comes to mind for me. It feels right.

B (28:20)

Yeah, I'm glad we covered that. Let's take a quick ad break and let's get into the second two parts of.

A (28:32)

As we mentioned at the top of this episode, the celebrity memoir that should be on your radar right now is absolutely Semi well Adjusted Despite Literally Everything by Alison Stoner. It is their tell all memoir from their life behind the scenes. As a childhood actor struggling with turbulent home life, their identity, and mental wellness, I was sort of familiar with Allison Stoner from Camp Rock and Phineas and Ferb. Cheaper by the dozen, certainly, but I didn't know a ton about their life story. I I recently listened to a podcast episode where they discussed this book in detail, and I had such a deep appreciation for how Allison wrote this book and the way that it impacted these people who were discussing it. And anyway, there's a lot to be unpacked in this book for sure.

B (29:19)

This one is definitely for Fans of Jennette McCurdy's I'm glad my Mom Died, complete with all the juicy child star stories, complicated family relationships, and Hollywood's body image pressure. But there's so much more, like religious trauma and navigating identity, privacy, purpose, and mental health in a digital age.

A (29:39)

The reviews of Semi well Adjusted Despite Literally Everything are incredible. And Allison narrated the audiobook as well, which I think is the only proper way to experience memoir. As the year is coming to a close, we're looking at the things we may have missed when they first came out, and I think it's a great time for audiobooks, and this one is definitely high up on my list. Allison Stoner's memoir is a book and an Audi book you won't want to miss. You can listen to Semi well Adjusted Despite Literally Everything wherever you get your audiobooks.

B (30:14)

Okay, so between the first part and the second part, there's a 25ish year time jump. Again, Ballsy. We go from Leaving Casey being stood up at the airport by Yash, to her being a wife and a mother and welcoming him as a house guest. And this all happens before we start to get a lot of clues for anyone who read writers and Lovers that it's the same character. I think I saw a lot of people talking about how the name Silas was the biggest giveaway for them. There's definitely some clues in part one. Talking about golf, talking about having a gay brother where she's from in Massachusetts. Like, there are clues there. But I think Silas was the thing that clued a lot of people in. Did the time jump work for you?

A (31:01)

Yeah, I think it worked for me, especially because, like I said, I just loved that second part. And I think that phase of life, of having had multiple intense relationships and losses and choices and regrets, is in a lot of ways more interesting than, like, falling in love or even death in some way. It hits emotionally in a way that some other things don't for me. So I thought that jump, like, just made it for me, but I didn't necessarily expect it. When I was reading, I was like, oh, okay, we are. We are jumping through time and space. Yeah.

B (31:38)

What's also really interesting is that there's not a lot of clues in part one as to what year it's taking place. You know, it's not contemporary because they don't have cell phones. At one point, she brings a bottle of wine over to the breach house and it's a 1987 or something. So, you know, it's past 1987. But I think they talk about elections happening in the Soviet Union.

A (32:05)

Yes, yes, yes. I flagged that as well.

B (32:08)

You. You, like, kind of get a sense, but it's not. You don't specifically know what time, like when it's taking place. And then you jump 25 years and you're like, oh, when are we. But I thought it was handled really well. And I thought that it felt to me like the same character. Like, I could still sense it being the same character even with so much time passing and her showing up in such a different state. But I thought this was such a nifty magic trick. After getting to the ending, and especially this time, rereading it alongside writers and lovers is like, you actually do know some of what happens in that 25 year jump.

A (32:43)

Yeah.

B (32:43)

Like, you can reconstruct it.

A (32:45)

Definitely. So talk to me about the third part.

B (32:48)

Oh, my God.

A (32:49)

Which I know is. Is your. I don't know, favorite question mark.

B (32:54)

Favorite feels like a weird term for it. But yes.

A (32:58)

Yeah. Tell me about reading that.

B (33:00)

Oh, my gosh. I think it was a kindness that the book was so short and that everything was so taut because if it was any longer, I don't know if I could have withstood it. I was crying so hard. I reread the book for book club and I was wondering if the second time, if it would hit me as hard because I knew what was going to happen. I ended the book yesterday. I had to have had 15 tissues on the ottoman in front of me just from sobbing, like, I was a wreck. And I. It really stuck with me too. Like, later in the day yesterday, I was out running errands and I just felt so sad. And I was like, why do I feel this way? Like, why do I feel on the edge of tears? And I was like, oh, like I've absorbed these emotions from this book and these characters. Oh, it really hit me in the feels and it, like, really, really. It really got me. And there were so many little, like, details about it. Like on top of just somebody dying young, like, the idea of him having lived this, like, somewhat sad or unfulfilled life because he was never able to get over her. Oh, my God, it was so heart wrenching. Like, at one point, I think one of the aunts or somebody says to Jordan says, you sit, you're the guest of honor. And she says, I'm not. I'm an interloper. Where it's like she's moved on. And while they've. It sounds like they maintained a friendship via phone calls or whatever after time had passed, like she's the most important person in his life and not vice versa. And I was like, oh, my God, this is so crushingly sad.

A (34:45)

Yeah. What's weird is that the moment that got me the most, where I really broke down was maybe not the one that I would have expected.

B (34:53)

What was it?

A (34:53)

It was when in the hospital when the. The district attorney comes in and says to him, like, it was the honor of my life working with you or something like that. It's something very tender. And I think it was like one of the few moments where he actually, his life, like, outside of Jordan Casey existed on the page. Like, he did have, you know, a career that was somewhat meaningful or impactful to other people beyond her. He did make those connections. He did have this presence and importance outside of her. And for some reason it just crushed me. I don't. I like, it crushed me with sadness, but also I think I needed it. Like, I needed to see that. Like, okay, he did have some form of a life, even if, you know, so much of it is tied up in this relationship that went south. I will say there is this level of frustration with this book where it's like, why couldn't you have just talked to each other? Why couldn't you have gotten on the phone and been like, oh, by the way? Like, I don't know. I get it. And it's like, it was still a beautiful, wonderful book, but you know what I'm saying, Like, just. I wanted you guys to just be together so much, but I didn't.

B (36:09)

I mean, I think that's something that's so interesting about this book is it's like, are they meant to be? I don't know. You know, where it's like, are her and Silas meant to be? I don't know, but it's like, she's chosen to do life with somebody else. And I think there's something so heartbreaking and bittersweet about, like, the regret or him not moving on. But I wasn't like, oh, my God, these two should kiss. They should be together. Like, I never felt like that.

A (36:37)

Yeah, I didn't either that they should, you know, in the hospital. But I just think. I guess the thing is, it was so silly, the way their relationship ended. In a lot of ways, it didn't add up, you know, and it was really. It really just came down to the fact that they just didn't have a conversation about what was happening. Like, that was it. There wasn't some major betrayal, some huge mistake that cannot be overcome. It was just that they didn't have a conversation. And so I think to think that they could have saved themselves so much heartache just by talking, even if they didn't end up together, which I agree. I think part of. Part of the poignance of the story is the fact that, like, these people loved each other deeply. But, you know, who is meant to be and who is not is an interesting question, but I don't know.

B (37:23)

Okay, well, talking about conversations to be had, I mean, I feel like one of the biggest sources of tension in the third part of the book is, like, Jordan battling whether or not she should tell Yash that she was pregnant and gave up their child for adoption. Like, did you feel strongly one way or the other that she should or should not tell him?

A (37:45)

As a reader, I wanted her to tell him. Well, yes, as, like, a. If I was asked this, like, in a real interpersonal situation, I think that question is a lot more difficult. But, yes, as a Reader, I was like, you gotta tell him. Did you feel that way or different?

B (37:59)

Well, you're so right. Like, as a reader, I want to see that play out. But as a human, I think I was more on her side. She says at one point, me telling him it would kill him and he wouldn't have time to process it. And it's like, is it a kindness or a cruelty to unburden yourself at that point? And so I really felt that I wasn't like, oh, my gosh, want to shake her by the shoulders and be like, you're being dumb. I obviously did want to see it as a reader because it's so. It's such a bomb going off. But I really got her inner turmoil about whether or not she should tell him.

A (38:34)

Yeah, it's a very hard decision. I don't know what I would have come to for sure.

B (38:40)

Wait, can I blow your mind?

A (38:42)

Sure.

B (38:43)

Okay. So it sounds like Lily King was working on this book for many years. She talked about at the event, I went to how she was initially writing a political thriller after Writers and Lovers. So this would have been the first Covid summer, like, summer of 2020. Also, writers and lovers came out in March 2020, which I didn't realize. And I feel like so many books just were cursed by timing of coming out in March 2020. And it's so interesting that this one really caught fire, even despite that timing.

A (39:20)

Yeah, I had no idea. Although maybe that's why I missed it. Maybe.

B (39:23)

But okay. So, anyway, so after Writers and Lovers came out, she was working on a political thriller, and she wrote, like, I don't know, 80 pages of it, and was like, this is dumb. And started working on this book. So let's say she started working on it fall of 2020ish, fall of 2021. So she's been working on this book for many years. Usually, you know, you would hand in the final of a book, let's say, like a year before it comes out. And so she was rereading it. She was almost at her deadline, and she kept feeling like the third section wasn't quite right. And she said that for the past year, her husband, who had been, like, reading a screenwriting book, kept telling her that Jordan needed a secret. And she kept shutting him down and being like, shut up. You don't know what you're talking about. You just read the screenwriting book. Like, I'm an author. Leave me alone. And he said it again. And she ended up adding in the whole storyline about the pregnancy 11 days before turning in the final, final draft of this book.

A (40:33)

Hmm.

B (40:34)

That is mind blowing to me that this book existed for, let's call it three years without this thread in it that feels so integral to its DNA.

A (40:46)

Oh, see, I think it could have existed without it and still been. I think it would have been as powerful. I don't think it would have been as commercially popular.

B (40:56)

Okay.

A (40:56)

Because I think it adds something to the. To the tension and to the plot. And yes, like, I think there's a lot of emotional levels that work, but I don't think it needed it. And I'm not surprised that she added it in afterwards. 11 days before is absolutely crazy, but that doesn't shock me at all.

B (41:13)

And in adding it in, the second section was originally a very short, like, I think maybe only a couple pages section, and she expanded it to add in more to, like, make the pregnancy story fit. So it's so interesting that that's your favorite part, and it sounds like a lot of that was added at the 11th hour.

A (41:34)

That's very funny. Yeah. And when I think about that section, the pregnancy aspect is obviously part of it and the adoption and all of that. And I was definitely like, oh. But the thing that really hit me was just like the. Like you said that bittersweetness of seeing someone who you. You could have ended up with or you could have had a life with, and you didn't. And that's not really right or wrong, it's just what it is.

B (42:00)

Oh. I thought the pregnancy plotline added so much in the third part because the other key source of tension is kind of like the push and pull of Yash dying and then needing to be there for her son, who's also having a health crisis. And without the pregnancy thing, I feel like it would have been like, yes, of course you need to go with your son. Like, you've said your goodbye. Why are you lingering? It's sad he's dying. But, like, I do think that having the pregnancy thing and then needing to deal with a fallout from that made it so much more of a push and pull where it's like, I understood why she couldn't leave.

A (42:37)

I see your point for sure. I think it kind of presents a good point, which is that I. I kept thinking about why the storyline about the. The son was necessary too. Like, why did that also need to be happening at the same time? Maybe it was like, to add this tension of whether she should be there or whether she should leave. But I actually feel like I don't know the question of, like, is it important for her to be there regardless of everything else going on? Because this was, like, an informative person in. And, yes, she is a mother, and yes, what's going on is really important. And yes, there's this. This big secret. But, like, if you take all of that away, I think the question of if it's important for her to be there and see him is still so powerful, just as, like, a human going through life and a woman. But, yeah, so interesting the way that, like, details and stories just, I don't know, add things if they're necessary, if they're not, that they give to people.

B (43:35)

All the sliding door versions that a book can be of itself, you know, because you're right. Like, it could exist without the pregnancy or without her son also having complex medical needs, and it could exist, and it would just be a different, quieter novel about the bittersweetness of, like, I guess, soulmates versus, you know, who you choose, if that's how you want to put it. That totally blew my mind hearing that that didn't exist in that book for so long.

A (44:05)

Wow. People's minds are wild. Yeah. What did you think about the Sam of it all? You know, how he comes back at the end and their friendship?

B (44:14)

I found this very poignant as well. I don't know if this was just because I was already a snotty, teary mess, but the part about Sam's cot almost killed me in the third part. And I thought this was such a beautiful depiction of male friendship, because I don't know if you get these on your algorithm, but I feel like right now I'm getting so many videos about, like, reels that are, like, comedy things about, oh, my husband went away for a boys weekend, and he came back with absolutely no details about why his best friend is getting divorced.

A (44:49)

That's accurate.

B (44:51)

Like, it is so accurate. But, you know, you're just like. I feel like you see so much about the male loneliness epidemic and just men not communicating in friendships and seeing this depiction of friendship between these two men and Sam saying that, like, Yash was there for him, saved him after their other friend died and he had this crisis of faith that estranged him from his family. Like, I thought it was all so beautiful and, like, Sam being the one communicating with the doctors being kind of his. Like, I don't know what the right medical word is, but, like, his person. His medical person. I thought it was so beautiful. And I thought that because Sam was such a jackass in the first part, I thought it was really Nice that he came around. And I thought the reconciliation between Casey and Sam was really poignant, too. And he said something about how angry he'd be at his sons for behaving the way that he did. And I thought that was really. It's certainly too little too late, but, like, I thought it was a very interesting nuance about how fatherhood allowed him to recontextualize his own actions.

A (45:58)

Yeah, I really liked it, too. And I think, honestly, men, women, I think we all just make such stupid, selfish, dumb choices in relationships in, like, late teens, early adulthood, you know, I think who among us would look back at something and be like, God, I handled that so poorly, and I liked it a lot.

B (46:19)

Yeah. I don't know how I would have felt about it if it was in a different context, outside of Yash dying and them being in this hospital scene in this end of life setting. But, like, oh, man, it really. I was like, I'm ready to forgive you, Sam. Like, you got your cot. You're, like, sleeping at the hospital.

A (46:39)

Oh, he was sweet. Yeah. And were his kids there at a certain part? Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah. Yeah.

B (46:47)

Okay. So from a writing perspective, one thing that absolutely astonished me is how much story is packed into this. My copy is 249 pages. It feels like an absolute magic trick. It also makes me be like, why does any book, including my own, need to be longer than 249 pages if this is what you could do with 249 pages? I was just like, my writer brain was blown away by what she did here.

A (47:15)

Yeah. And I think on, like, a micro level, something that I really noticed with both books, but especially this one. Both of her books I've read, I mean, the sentences are so sparse. They're very short and concise. It is not flowery language at all. And I think the plot is kind of the same in a lot of ways. And I really, even though it's so far from how I write, I, like, admire it so much because it's so effective. And even if I may be drawn towards writing that's, like, a little more prose heavy, it just works. And I think it takes such restraint, and it's just. It's really, really impressive.

B (47:58)

And even the universe of side characters in this book, like, Yash's childhood friends E.J. and Marnie, and, like, there was just, like, there was so much. Yasha's whole family, like, there was so much in this book, and yet it was such a tight package. At no point was I bored. Like, at no Point was I like, okay, let's get on with things.

A (48:20)

Yes. Yes. I literally read it, like, for an hour or two in the morning, an hour or two in the evening, and I just blew through it. And it was. It was such a nice experience. But the side characters is a really good point, because I think sometimes when I'm writing and there's a new character, I feel like it doesn't need to be there unless I can introduce, like, a whole backstory and everyone knows who this person is, and, like, it feels so, you know, unnecessary or something. But, like, I guess her writing really shows how you can just pepper in these characters, and if you do it the right way, it can be really powerful. Yeah.

B (48:55)

How did you feel about where the book ended? So she gets to Houston, she gets the text that Yash died, but we don't get closure on her son's surgery. Did you want more or different, or did you feel like it ended in the right place?

A (49:09)

I think it ended in the right place. Yeah. Same, I think, with her family. And also, like, I thought the line where she says, you know, I. I know it's gonna be okay about her son, I didn't really interpret that as, like, he's gonna be fine.

B (49:24)

Yeah.

A (49:25)

But more so like, a commentary on the fact that, like, look at this thing with Yash. Look at all the ways it went sideways, you know, and ultimately, there's still so much beauty in it. And I thought that was the perfect way. I don't know if I really needed the, like, her name being the. In the last line because it didn't feel as impactful as everything else, because at that point, I was like, oh, yeah, this is connected. But maybe for some. I mean, did that work for you? Like, did the name really hit you, or.

B (49:52)

No, I didn't. I didn't connect it until somebody told me. So I. I think it could have been the ultimate shoe drop for somebody. But no. I mean, no, because I guess you're hinting at it the whole time, so it's like the final confirmation. Yeah, I think it did work. It worked. It just. It didn't have enough flashing neon signs for me who read this book five years ago.

A (50:14)

I was just like, jordan, Jordan, Jordan, Jordan, Casey. Oh, I thought it was Casey. Very, very interesting choice, but it works.

B (50:24)

I feel like this book may be our most universally liked book club pick that we have done in recent history. Like, usually there's a thread in the Facebook group and somebody's like, I didn't like the book club pick, or, like, I'm not liking it. Should I keep going? And then like a bunch of people are like, I didn't like it either. Like, I don't know that we've had a book club pick that I've seen only positive things for and I don't. Am I missing something? I haven't seen Ear a little more on Facebook than I am, but like, I haven't seen a single person who was like, eh, it wasn't for me. What do you think it is about this book that has made it so universally liked in our community?

A (51:05)

Well, I mean, what's not to like at all? You know, it's like, it doesn't make a lot of controversial choices. Arguably, you know, it's very literary, but it's also like very readable and digestible. It's fast paced. There are those secrets that make it feel really propulsive and commercial in a way that I think appeals to a really wide group of readers. It's about universal human experiences. I think everyone can relate to the loss of a major relationship or the loss of a person from cancer or someone who is too young. Like I think also just the passage of time and like looking back on your life and the different choices. So I think there's not a lot to dislike, you know. Do you have a more clear cut idea?

B (51:54)

No, but I feel, and maybe this is just I'm biased towards things I like, but I feel this way about so many books where I'm like, this book is fantastic. And then, you know, reading is so subjective and some people don't like it, but this book just seems to be universally liked. It is, along with the length, another magic trick. I'm in awe of her brain.

A (52:16)

Yeah, she's a very special writer for sure.

B (52:19)

You mentioned after you read Writers and Lovers that you wanted to give some of her other books a shot. Do you still feel that way after reading this? Has it made you more interested or are you like, I'm good for now.

A (52:29)

Yeah. Like if I saw Euphoria at a bookstore, I would pick it up, but I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to make sure I read it next.

B (52:38)

It has made me want to go back to some of her earlier backlist. She wrote a book called the Pleasing Hour, which I think is her debut, perhaps, but I'm really interested to go and read some of her earlier works.

A (52:54)

Well, you'll have to let us know what you think because I would definitely read more from her.

B (52:58)

Yeah. The Pleasing Hour was her debut in 1999 and it was an alternate for the PEN Hemingway Award.

A (53:08)

Hmm. It's crazy how much backlist people have that you've just not heard of, you know?

B (53:13)

Well, I mean, in 1999, I was busy being 13, so it doesn't totally shock me that I haven't heard of this.

A (53:19)

Well, right. But I mean, like, I've heard of Ann Patchett's books that were published in the 90s.

B (53:24)

That's true. That's true.

A (53:26)

So it seems like this is like the pinnacle of her career. You know, it doesn't seem like there was a book 20 years ago that was just as popular and now this one is. You know what I mean?

B (53:36)

No. She's definitely been, like, a slow build. I listened to a very interesting interview with her. She's very charming. On Ellen Hildebrand's podcast book Speech and Beyond, they had an episode that came out this summer, and she talks about, you know, her career and how she doesn't think she would have been able to handle that level of exposure if she had right out of the gate, hit it really big. But it's a really interesting interview and she's just like. I feel like her and Kathryn Newman are two writers that I think about kind of similarly, where they write somewhat auto fiction y books and they're just like charm monsters in the most complimentary way possible.

A (54:17)

They really are. They really, really are.

B (54:20)

Yeah. Well, let's take another ad break and get into some n matter.

A (54:29)

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. For the past week or so, I have been perfecting my cozy reading nook next to the wood burning stove in our library. I got my reading lamp, which I talked about. I have my giant leather chair. I have, like a throw blanket. But I recently added my Cozy Earth bubble cuddle blanket to the mix. So now I have a total cocoon of comfort. And I don't have to sit on the cold leather in the mornings, which is ideal. It is absolute perfection. Winnie loves it, too. I posted a photo of her curled up in the chair and the blanket the other day, and someone messaged me and said, okay, you've officially sold me. Make sure Winnie gets the commission. Which really made me laugh. But we both love that blanket so much. And it's just such a cozy, like I said, a cozy cocoon. I've been doing so much reading lately because I. I just look forward to sitting there every evening with a cup of tea or a hot chocolate, and it's perfect.

B (55:30)

It is cuddle blanket season in my house too, and I actually love mine in the morning. I Get out from my bed and I kind of walk through my cold house and then I get under this blanket. It is so soft. It is so warm. And I love that it has a weight to it. Like it's just instantly relaxing to be underneath it. It's not a full weighted blanket, but I think I weighed it last year and it's £14. And it just has the most satisfying heft to it. And in addition to being so cozy and so soft, it's also really nice looking. It's the perfect centerpiece for any room I like. Leave mine folded on the end of my couch and it just kind of looks like lux.

A (56:12)

Head to cozyearth.com and use our code BOP for 20% off. And if you get a post purchase survey, make sure to let them know you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Because home isn't just where you live, it's how you feel. Let's go home with Cozy Earth.

B (56:32)

All right, Tell me your obsession.

A (56:34)

I watched this movie last week called Twinless. Have you heard of this?

B (56:39)

I think so. Is this a documentary?

A (56:42)

No.

B (56:42)

No, then no.

A (56:44)

Sure. Okay. It's this movie starring Dylan o' Brien and in it he plays both twin brothers. He has a twin brother who dies in an accident and he ends up going to the support group for twins who have lost their twin. Oh, wow. And he meets a guy there and they end up developing this friendship. And I don't want to give anything away. I think it's worth going into this with no other information. I don't even really know how to describe this movie. It is like the most absolutely cringe fest experience I've ever had. Like it is so horrifically painful to watch. But it's also sort of thriller like but it's funny. And then it's just. It made me cry. Like it makes you feel so much for the characters, even like the absolute worst characters in this movie who you think like, I would never like. What is actually wrong with this person? They are the most unhinged human being I can picture. You just feel for them in a really interesting way. And I haven't heard a lot of people talk about this, but it's the type of movie that you're going to want to like go out to dinner afterwards and talk to talk to your people about. And Jake and I both really liked it.

B (57:58)

I'm very intrigued. Is this a more recent movie?

A (58:01)

Yeah, I think it came out maybe this summer. Oh, okay.

B (58:04)

Huh.

A (58:05)

Well, what's your obsession?

B (58:06)

I also have a TV or movie watching related obsession Mine is the Diplomat season three, which, if you might remember, the Diplomat season one and season two were my top TV shows of the year the past two years. So I have been so excited for this. Oh my God, it's so good. The first episode of the season especially was like pulse pounding. This show is so good.

A (58:36)

I need to get back to this. It's on my list. I keep putting off watching this season for some reason.

B (58:40)

Oh my gosh. I ended up staying up until 2am the night that it launched to watch. I was so invested. I watched it in like two days. Like ultimate binge watch behavior. I just, I love it. I think the relationship dynamics in the show are so interesting. I think the twists and turns in it is so interesting. I think the casting. They brought in Bradley Whitford, who was Josh on the West Wing as Alice and Janney's character's husband in this season. Oh my gosh. Fantastic. I will say I'm a little unsure of how this season ended and what that means for the story in the fourth season. It's definitely a less obvious cliffhanger, but I'm so committed. I'll go wherever the show takes me.

A (59:22)

Well, what have you read?

B (59:24)

So I read this book called Ready or Not by Cara Bastone. And this is a romance novel that came out, I think in 2023 or 2024. And I've heard so much positive buzz for it, but I just, I wasn't sure that it was for me because it has a pregnancy trope in it. So basically the storyline is this woman gets pregnant after a one night stand and the romance is not with the father of her child. The romance is with her best friend's older brother. And I wasn't sure that any of that was for me. Oh my gosh, Olivia, this book is so tender, so lovely, actually. Really funny too. And I was just happy crying my way through the last chapter because I was so happy for these characters. It was lovely.

A (60:14)

I've been seeing this all over the place.

B (60:16)

It was so good. People also highly, highly recommend her next book that came out this year, but it deals with the death of a best friend and it's a grief novel. And I'm just like, I don't know that I have that in me right now.

A (60:31)

That's fair. What's that one called?

B (60:33)

That one is called Promise me Sunshine.

A (60:35)

Oh, okay. I haven't heard of that. That's interesting.

B (60:38)

Oh, it's more recent. And then I also started an absolutely unhinged romantasy novel called the Kiss of The Basilisk by Lindsay Straub. And I'm bringing it up before I finish it because if anyone wants to get in on this crazy pants series with me, I'm here. I was at an event on Tuesday night and I ended up sitting and chatting with Aman Harirakia for a good amount of time. And I was asking her about how her book launch is going and, you know, what's going on, and all she wanted to talk about was this crazy pants romantasy that she was reading. And she pitched it so hard that I immediately came home and I downloaded the book. It's free on Kindle Unlimited. I would call it a cross between the selection and 50 shades of gray. The entire plotline is smut. Like, it is a book that is so thoroughly centered on smut that I'm impressed. So.

A (61:39)

Well, it's. At least it knows what it's doing. Oh, yeah.

B (61:42)

Oh, yeah. So the story is that in this village, all of the girls who are born in the same year as the prince have to compete to be his wife. And they are trained in sex by. I like, by these. The basilisks. The basilisk insects. Yes, by the basilisks who are snakes. Mythical snake creatures. They do have a human form.

A (62:16)

Sorry, these snakes are sex training them.

B (62:19)

Yeah.

A (62:20)

But the.

B (62:21)

The snakes do have a human form. Important to know, but I guess, is it. I was not familiar with a lot of basilisk lore, but apparently the thing about basilisks is you can't look one directly in the eye or you turn to stone.

A (62:34)

Right.

B (62:34)

Yeah. So it's very high stakes in that way.

A (62:37)

Is this a series? I'm assuming?

B (62:39)

Yeah.

A (62:40)

I think there's so much to teach.

B (62:42)

I think there's two books out and I think there's a third one coming.

A (62:46)

Wow. Well, I'm happy for you.

B (62:49)

Thank you so much. Thank you. I don't know that I'm happy for me, but I am learning a lot about basilisks.

A (62:57)

Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, I would hope so.

B (63:00)

So the first one is out and the second one is coming out.

A (63:03)

Okay.

B (63:04)

I got a lot of DMs about this. People have read this. They were like, it is wild. So I'm buckled up. It has this author's note at the front that is the most insane thing I've ever seen in a book. It's like.

A (63:16)

Is it like the one page trigger warning?

B (63:19)

No. Should I read it to you?

A (63:22)

Sure.

B (63:23)

This is about the book. At the very front of the book it says, I'm told it's best to Go into this book with absolutely no knowledge of its contents. As such, you'll find no blurb or summary here. Instead, I will leave you with some sincere advice. Buckle up. The Split or Swallow series is unlike anything you've read before.

A (63:43)

What?

B (63:43)

And you may never read anything like it again. Say goodbye to the person you were before this book. And once you've read it, hand it to a friend so they could read too.

A (63:53)

Sorry. Split or Swallow?

B (63:56)

Yeah. Mm.

A (63:58)

Okay.

B (64:02)

Well, just say goodbye to the person you were before this book. I'm not even sure it's melodramatic. I think it might be good advice.

A (64:12)

Sounds like it.

B (64:12)

God, take us back to the realm of novice.

A (64:16)

I've read. What have you read that I think might be as far from that as you can get? Which is the Correspondent by Virginia Evans. And this is about a woman in her 70s who is a prolific letter writer. You have talked about this book here before. And so the entire novel is told through letters and some emails and other notes. And it's just this woman writing down her every thought. And I loved it. It was such a quick read. So easy, so cozy and really beautiful. And I think a crowd pleaser like this is getting a lot of buzz right now. I think it's slowly built because this is definitely a you can bring to any book club and I think the majority of people will enjoy it. Unless maybe they're only wanting to read Kiss of the Basque Basilisk. And then they might be like, this isn't what we wanted.

B (65:13)

I think this book's marketing story is so fascinating. It's just like such a word of mouth sleeper.

A (65:20)

Hit the dream, really.

B (65:22)

Yeah.

A (65:23)

And it's also gonna be our November book club. And I thought this would be the perfect November read. The first line of this book starts with this main character sitting down with a cup of tea. And I think this is quite literally the ideal book to just curl up on the couch, have a nice hot cup of tea, put yourself under a blanket. It's like Thanksgiving season. There's a lot of themes of family drama and family connection, and I just. I think it's a perfect November read. I don't know how to describe that. Do you know what I mean, Becca?

B (65:58)

Yeah, I completely know what you mean. I think the family themes are really perfect for this time of year. So I'm very excited. I know a lot of our listeners have already read it, and if not, I hope you'll join us and pick it up. It is told in such an interesting form and it's something that doesn't seem like it's going to have a ton of plot to it, but it does.

A (66:19)

It does. Yes. And I have heard this is great on audio and I believe that. I believe that wholeheartedly. I will probably listen to it when I when I go back over it to put the episode together. And if you want to discuss Heart the Lover or anything else with us, you can join us in the Facebook group which is under Bottom Paper Podcast. We are also in the BFF group formerly known as Geneva Under Bound on Paper podcast. That's in our show Notes. You can join us on Instagram Outpaper podcast. I am on Instagram and substack liviamentor and you can pre order my book Little One right now and I would be so grateful if you did that because it helps me more than you can possibly know.

B (67:01)

Definitely go do that. And after you can follow me on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is at beccafreeman substack. Com and we will see you next week.

A (67:13)

Bye Bye.