How A Book Cover Gets Made with Molly von Borstel

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bad On Paper – "How A Book Cover Gets Made with Molly von Borstel"

Date: September 3, 2025
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Guest: Molly von Borstel (Book Cover Designer, Faceout Studio)

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Overview

In this episode, Becca and Olivia dive deep into the fascinating and often under-discussed world of book cover design. They’re joined by acclaimed book cover designer Molly von Borstel, the creative force behind numerous high-profile covers—including the paperback redesign of Olivia’s novel, Such a Bad Influence, and The Paradise Problem by Christina Lauren. Together, they discuss how a book cover gets made, the realities of working with publishers, the creative process, and the evolving trends influencing the look and feel of the books we love.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Molly’s Career Path into Book Cover Design

• Molly shares her journey from being a small-town art lover to a book cover designer (12:51).
  • She didn’t know book cover design was a career option, initially considering branding or packaging.
  • Discovering Faceout Studio—a specialized design agency—inspired her to pursue this niche.

"I grew up in a small town, had no idea what graphic design was. But I love my art classes and I had a great art teacher... I started diving into that and thought, I could do this for sure."
— Molly (12:51)

2. How Faceout Studio Works & the Publisher Relationship

• Faceout Studio operates as an independent agency working with publishers big and small across genres (15:10).
• Publishers may use external agencies when their in-house teams are overloaded or if a specific visual specialty is desired (16:06).
• Projects are assigned to individual designers, who shepherd each cover from initial comp to final approval.

3. The Step-by-Step Book Cover Design Process

• Brief & Kickoff: Designers receive a project brief with a synopsis, specs, design inspiration, and sometimes direct phone calls for clarity (19:22).
• Comps Creation: Designers usually create three unique cover concepts (20:59).
• Presentation & Feedback: Internal studio review, then presentation to publishers. There are often many voices involved before the author sees anything (17:53, 22:01).
• Author Involvement: Typically, authors have input only after internal and publisher review; the process can vary—Olivia describes seeing two options for her paperback (21:06).

4. Navigating Opinions & Feedback

• Multiple stakeholders (marketing, editorial, sales, etc.) weigh in, leading to covers being tweaked, sometimes against the designer’s original preferences (27:21, 28:12).
• Designers must develop thick skin and the flexibility to adapt their vision.

"That's one of the tougher parts about this job... to have a little bit of a thick skin and also be able to not hold so tightly onto a project and be willing to kind of go with the flow."
— Molly (27:21)

• Both authors and designers liken the revision process to editing a manuscript—feedback is often non-prescriptive, and collaboration is key (32:16, 34:06).

5. Market Trends & the Influence of Genre

• Trends such as "cartoon romance covers" dominate until exhausted; market and sales departments heavily influence visual direction (37:49, 40:19).
• “Purposeful cover confusion”—copycat covers—sometimes arise when publishers try to mimic successful books (37:53).
• Molly and the hosts discuss how covers communicate genre and appeal to book buyers who may know nothing about the book otherwise (36:00, 37:27).

6. Balancing Originality with Commercial Needs

• While designers crave originality, there’s pressure to create covers that clearly signal genre and appeal broadly (37:49, 42:05).

"We want something completely original... But then we don't have that brain that's thinking about marketing and sales and what's doing well out there."
— Molly (37:49)

• Sometimes, established authors can "break the mold" with more unique covers (42:30-43:30).

7. Favorite Book Covers & Inspiration

• Molly’s current favorite cover: The Long Con by Jenna Voris—she describes the complex photo compositing involved (44:53).
• The panel discusses their personal favorite covers and how subjective cover appeal can be (46:08–47:04).

"That line, 'Don’t judge a book by its cover.' We hope you do so well."
— Molly (47:50)

• They highlight the influence of reading tastes and genre cues in how covers are received.

8. Design Trends & Looking Forward

• Larger, bolder type and more electric colors are trending, driven by the need for covers to stand out as thumbnails online (51:52).
• Special print treatments (sprayed edges, foils) are increasingly popular for physical books (52:39).
• The visual economy of e-commerce is changing priorities—small, delicate layouts are often discouraged (53:09).

"Sometimes a project will lend itself...to have, like, a small, quiet title, but a lot of times anymore, it's like, this looks beautiful, but when we shrink it down... you can’t see it at all."
— Molly (53:09)

9. Social Media, Side Projects, and Creative Stretching

• Molly discusses embracing Instagram and creative side projects, such as designing book covers inspired by Taylor Swift songs (49:44–51:05).
• These personal projects offer creative freedom—“no opinion but your own on the cover” (50:37).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the emotional toll of creative feedback:
  "I do remember first starting out, being crushed by things that I thought were a done deal... Every now and then, you still work on that project... and then they come back and want to tweak some things or gut it."
  — Molly (29:49)

• On who really chooses the cover:
  "That line, 'Don’t judge a book by its cover.' We hope you do so well."
  — Molly (47:50)

• On purposeful cover mimicry:
  "When we get a project brief...with cover inspiration attached, we have to take that with a little bit of a grain of salt. Are they putting this in because this is just a really popular book right now?"
  — Molly (38:49)

• On market pressure vs creative exploration:
  "We love when we get a project brief that says: let’s break the mold of what’s already been done... Sometimes, let's break the mold on one cover and see if we can get it through all the way to the end."
  — Molly (42:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Molly’s Background & Path to Book Covers – 12:31–14:26
• How Faceout Studio Works with Publishers – 15:10–16:36
• Detailed Book Cover Design Workflow – 18:51–20:59
• Author vs Publisher Role in Covers – 21:06–23:31
• Handling Multiple Opinions and Feedback – 27:21–34:53
• Market Trends, Copycat Covers & Genre Signifiers – 37:27–41:44
• Breaking the Mold with Creative Briefs – 42:05–43:30
• Favorite Covers & Subjectivity in Design – 44:34–47:50
• Trends for the Future: Bold Type, Electric Colors & Print Specialties – 51:52–53:38
• Creative Exploration on Instagram & Taylor Swift Projects – 49:44–51:33

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Closing & Where to Find Molly

• Molly shares her handles and where to see her work:
  • Instagram: @MVBcreate
  • Studio: Faceout Studio (@faceoutstudio)
• She encourages creatives to experiment, stay playful, and find joy in collaboration.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a rare, honest peek behind the curtain of an often-mysterious aspect of publishing. Whether you’re a reader, writer, or designer, you’ll come away with new appreciation for every cover you see—and the many creative, commercial, and personal forces shaping it.

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For more bookish chat and updates, follow Bad On Paper on Instagram @badonpaperpodcast and join their Facebook Group!

Transcript

[A]

Hi everyone and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today we are talking all about how a book cover comes to be with a a incredible book cover designer named Molly Von Borstel, who is actually the person who did my such a Bad Influence paperback redesign. But she's also done other amazing covers that I know you've seen. And this we really get into the nitty gritty of all things covers. So if you're into covers like Becca and I are, I think you'll enjoy this.

[B]

Yeah, we've talked about so many other aspects of how a book gets made, but we've neglected covers to date. So this was a really fun, fun full circle moment.

[A]

Well, before we get to that, let's do some highs and lows. What is your high, Becca?

[B]

Oh my gosh, I am all highs right now. Well, except for one dumb thing. I just got back from San Diego yesterday. I was on a little girls trip that was so relaxing. It was just three of us. We were in Carlsbad, which I kind of understand to be grandparent retiree San Diego. And we were living our best grandma lives. We went to bed by like 9pm every night. We were up early every morning to go for a walk. And then we were playing Mahjong by like 8:30am One day. We spent most of the day at the pool just kind of laying out, reading. I taught them how to play Monopoly Deal. Which everyone became obsessed with. We went to such great dinners. Oh my gosh, it was such a lovely trip. So that was like the relaxing portion. And now I'm home for 40 hours of doing work and personal maintenance appointments. I have a mani pedi. I have a hair appointment to dye my hair, to dye all my grays. And then I'm going to Sicily for a friend's 40th birthday trip. So I am on back to back vacations and I'm so excited. I was telling you that for this trip we're staying on a nature reserve and there are supposedly maybe flamingos, which I have been obsessed with since I was a child. And so if I see wild flamingos, I've told everyone I will cry.

[A]

We were just discussing this and honestly, if you had given me five locations and one of them was Sicily and you were like, where are flamingos in the world? I would never have chosen Sicily, not in a million years. So I'm learning a lot from this trip, which I appreciate. Thank you. I'm excited for you. The trip to San Diego looked amazing and have you ever been to San Diego? Slash, have you ever been to Sicily?

[B]

I've been to San Diego many times. One of my best friends moved there for a while after college and so I've been many times. But it was a very different vibe. We were like bar hopping in Pacific beach, laying by a pool in Carlsbad. So very different vibe this time. And no, I've never been to Sicily. I'm so excited. It's been on my list of places I want to go and I think it's going to be a really fun group. And I think the person whose birthday trip it is has curated kind of a great itinerary for us. So I'm very excited.

[A]

I'm excited for you. I've only been to Sicily once, but I will say it was around the same time of year. And if I can make one humble suggestion, if you have a hand fan of any kind, either an old fashioned one or an Amazon one, I would encourage you to invest.

[B]

I do not have any type of hand fan, unfortunately. But it does look like the weather is pretty temperate. It's mostly mid-80s. I think there's one day that's 92.

[A]

So maybe it's starting to cool down there then.

[B]

Yeah, I think it might be. So it's. It doesn't look intense hot.

[A]

Okay. I'm glad for you. That makes a huge difference. And maybe the flamingos will be more active in that case.

[B]

I hope so. You better believe I'm bringing watercolor so that I can paint the flamingos if they're there.

[A]

Oh, that's nice. That's very wholesome.

[B]

What about you? What is your high?

[A]

My high is twofold. Last week, Monday night to Saturday morning, Jake and I went to see my parents outside of Charleston. They live by the beach. So it was just a really nice four or five days of relaxing. We both took off work. I read three books, I sat in a pool, I drank a frozen lemonade. Frozen strawberry lemonade, actually. It was delightful and the weather was nice. We saw my parents, we had good meals. It was just a really nice time.

[B]

Usually when you put Bruce Mentor to work hawking pre orders for your book, the Ultimate Sales Guy to work.

[A]

He loved it. He absolutely loved it. And I really enjoyed it. That was like on our last morning there that I filmed that at 7 in the morning before my flight. I was like, go.

[B]

And he was just ready to sell. He's just 7am this is his truth.

[A]

This is his time to shine. This is his moment. This is his platform. And he did A great job. And any way to get the word out about pre ordering. But I was gonna say, usually when we visit my parents, the way it's worked out, we've both had to work. And so this was one of the first times where we were really off and it was so nice and. Yeah. And then we got home, and finally the bookshelves in the library are coming to life. As I speak, I am looking at someone make them so. It is thrilling to see this come to life. It's a rather quick project. It's just taken a while to get it started, so it should be done by next week.

[B]

Like, I basically cannot wait for the reveal rip to your book piles that I know you've grown attached to.

[A]

I have, but it's actually a much needed excuse to purge the piles because I want to, you know, choose carefully which books are making it to the shelves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So anyway, lots of exciting things going on. What's your low?

[B]

My low is that I am so dumb, Olivia. I am such an idiot. So do you remember last month when I broke my printer with the water? Yeah. I broke it again in the exact same way.

[A]

Oh, you put it right back to the thing.

[B]

I learned nothing. So after that, I was not very bothered. I was like, oh, well, it had a good life. It had a mishap. I'll buy a new printer. Bought the newer version of the same printer. And. Okay, so the problem is in my office, there's only one plug, and the plug is in a weird spot, and it's kind of between two windows, and there's a chair there. And so I've just historically kept it on the ground below one of the windows. And it's never been a problem before. The last time, like, the window leaked, it was this, like, epic end of days rainstorm that happened. So it was kind of like a fluke. And for the first few weeks after I got the second printer, I was keeping it on the chair. Every time I wasn't using it, I would put it up on the chair because I was like, oh, my gosh, don't let this happen again. Finally, enough weeks go by. I was, like, lured into a false sense of confidence. I left it on the ground. After I printed something, I come back from, I guess, Chicago. I don't know where I was. I went to go print something, and the printer won't turn on. And I'm like, what happened? Why is this printer not working? I just bought it. It's a month old. What is happening? And I remembered that the night before I left for Chicago. I had gone to dinner with friends in Park Slope. And during dinner, all of a sudden, it went from light out to pitch black. And it was torrentially, torrentially raining. And we were like, oh, my gosh, thank God we're inside. Didn't think anything of it. And what I assume happened is that during that, again, end of days rainstorm, like a fluky, really heavy rainstorm, water must have come in through the window. Must have rained on the printer again, and the printer died. So I have killed the printer in the exact same way. And I feel so stupid.

[A]

Was it an expensive printer?

[B]

It's like 250 bucks. It's not the most expensive thing, but it's not cheap. And this one was a month old previously. The printer I had was like a few years old. So I was like, well, it's fine. It's printed a lot of stuff this time. I'm like, this was brand new.

[A]

I have to tell you. I actually got a new printer over the weekend, which is a big moment for me. And I thought about where in the writing cottage I was gonna place it because of this. Cause I was like, what if there is a storm and water gushes through a window? And I don't want to lose this now that I found this printer. I got one that holds 500 sheets of paper at a time. I feel so powerful.

[B]

I will tell you what. I need to order a new printer when I get back from Sicily, and it's going to sit in the middle of my living room. I don't care if it's an eyesore. It will not go back under that window. It is just going to be ugly in the middle of my living room.

[A]

That's the way you have to do it, I think, because what if you had to buy a third printer?

[B]

I would not be allowed to own printers after this one. If I ruin this one, I can't have printed things.

[A]

Yeah, you're going to Staples after that point. You're spending a lot of money at Staples.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Oh, well, I'm sorry that I'm glad, but I'm glad you learned, you know, the hard way, unfortunately, but I feel.

[B]

Like a big idiot. What about you? Do you have a low?

[A]

I do not really have a low. I'm feeling good. I'm in a good groove, so go with that.

[B]

Love to hear it.

[A]

Well, let's take a quick ad break, and then we will get into this interview. This episode is sponsored by quint. It was 49 degrees this morning here in the Hudson Valley and I am happy to report there are crunchy leaves on the ground and fall. If it is not here it is just around the corner and I have really had fall shopping on my mind nonstop. I just went to browse on Quinn's this morning to see what what they have in stock and I am now thinking about getting a gorgeous suede moto jacket. They also have the most chic structured Mongolian cashmere sweater which sounds not that cute but I promise it is the best. And they also have this perfect long puffer jacket for when it gets really cold that you would normally see online for hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of dollars. And it's only I think $199. So I'm also thinking about that for the colder months.

[B]

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[A]

I love the pieces I've purchased from Quint, especially their buttery soft T shirts and they're just super nice accessories and I can't wait to grab some more pieces as we get deeper into fall. Keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quince. Go to quince.combop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C D E.combop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.combop we are so excited to welcome Molly on the podcast today. Born and raised in the Pacific Northwest, Molly Von Borstel is an Oregon Art Director and book cover designer for faceout Studio, designing covers for books like the Paradise Problem by Christina Lauren and the paperback cover of my own book Such About Influence. Molly has fallen in love with the visual storytelling aspect of the gig as well as the collaboration found within the publishing industry and we are so excited to talk all things book covers with her today. Welcome Molly to the podcast. I am so excited to talk to you today about book covers.

[C]

Well, thank you guys for having me and it's been great meeting you guys. I'm excited to talk today.

[B]

Well, why don't we start off? I want to hear a little bit about your career path and how you got into designing book covers in the first place. I don't think there's a book cover design Major in college. So I'm so curious how you ended up in this niche.

[C]

It's a little bit of a funny story. I grew up in a small town, had no idea what graphic design was. But I love my art classes and I had a great art teacher. And so when I was trying to figure out a career path growing up, I was like, what can I do with art that could be a career? And she was like, have you ever heard of graphic design? So I started diving into that and what that entails and I think I could do this for sure. So I knew I wanted to go to Oregon State and I started looking up their design program and they seemed to have a pretty robust four year program there. So I applied and got in. And for the next four years in school, I worked my butt off learning everything about graphic design and fell in love with it and still didn't know about book cover design. Didn't know that was a career that I could go pursue. At one point I thought I was going to do packaging, branding design, but yeah, that's what I thought I was going to get into. Didn't quite work out that way. But I was looking at studios in Oregon and came across faceout Studio in Central Oregon. And first of all, I don't know if you guys have been to Central Oregon, but it's beautiful over here. And I was like, I could definitely live there. So I looked into that studio a bit more and was like, I could do book cover design. So I reached out to my now boss and they were hiring at the time, did the full interview process, fell in love with what the job required, the visual storytelling aspect of the job. My coworker is here. Yeah. So that's how I ended up being a book cover designer.

[B]

And were you a big reader before coming into book cover design or have your reading habits changed as you've been designing covers?

[C]

I was a fairly big reader growing up. I did love, love a good romance read. I will say I didn't have a very wide range of books I like to read up until this point. I think this expanded my knowledge of just how many genres are out there in the world to read. So I think that's what shifted for me after starting this job.

[A]

And for those who aren't familiar, we're going to talk more about this. Can you explain what Face Out Studio is? Because unlike a lot of book cover designers, you don't actually work for a publishing company. So people might be curious to know how that works.

[C]

Yeah, it's a little bit different. We are an independent agency, independent studio that specializes in book cover design and packaging. And so we work with all sorts of publishers, pretty much all over the US and they come to us with their cycle of jobs and we are assigned those jobs. It could be one day, they could come to us with like a horror novel or a women's devotional, another day. And so we worked with all kinds of publishers and all kinds of jobs.

[B]

And why would a publisher be contracting externally? So I know most major publishers have internal art departments. Is it like they're overloaded or is it because of, you know, like a certain specialty? Like what would lead to publishing house kind of saying, oh, we want to do this using an external agency versus our internal resources?

[C]

I think it definitely depends. Sometimes it's just they're at capacity in house and they need to contract it out. So that's where they would reach out to us. We've also built a decent amount of relationships over the years with different clients that automatically will come to us because they trust us, they will do good work and hit the deliverables on time. And so they come to us because we've built a relationship with them. Others do think like, oh, this would be a great job for specifically faceout Studio. So it varies depending on project and client.

[B]

So tell us about, if you remember. I want to hear about the first cover you ever designed. Whether that was something in school or whether that was something once you were at Face Out. Like, what cover was it?

[C]

So like I said, I got this job right out of college, so baby designer didn't know anything. And I started working here as a junior level designer and worked underneath my creative director who's no longer with us, but Tim Green, he's awesome. You guys should look him up. And so I remember the first job I did. The first job I remember doing was called Love and Work. It was a self help relationship book. And he definitely like took me under his wing, helped me, pretty much guided me through the whole process. And I remember when my cover got chosen, that was a big day. I was like, wow, maybe I can do this for real. But a lot of help and guidance from my co workers and my creative director at the time and I think there's been a lot of growth since then.

[A]

So when you say when your cover got chosen, do you mean like by the publisher they chose your design or do you mean like you were competing with other people at your level?

[C]

That's a good question.

[B]

Or both.

[C]

Well, for our studio specifically, when a job comes in, it gets assigned to a designer in our studio, like, for a variety of different reasons, based on schedule, who'd be best fit for the job, things like that. And so once we get assigned a job, it's our project. We're the sole designer for that project, so we're not competing against anyone else in our studio for that job. I guess in the beginning, we work alongside designers, other designers in our studio, like Tim Green, my creative director, just to get the ball rolling, but we have the sole ownership of that project. And so we spend the time to work on the comping phase of a book cover, and then from there, we get it approved internally in the studio. And then after that, we build a presentation and send it off to the client. And so the client will review that presentation and either love it or revise it or hate it, and then hopefully we'll come to a finished cover.

[B]

Okay, I want to dive into even more nitty gritty with this. So can you walk us through the process of designing a cover from start to finish? What do you get from the publisher? Like, do you have conversations with the author? Like, how do you learn more about the book? I imagine you can't read every single book you design. Like, I want to hear about the process. Soup to nuts. And maybe because this was fairly recent, tell me if this is, like, not a representative example, but maybe we could use Olivia's book as an example.

[C]

It's funny that if we read the books before we design them is probably one of my most asked questions as a book cover designer. And that would be great if we had time to read every book before we design them. But unfortunately, based on time restraints with the job, that rarely happens. But for us, for our studio, we get assigned a job, like I said, based on different reasonings. But once we get assigned the job and it gets put on our schedule, we have time in our schedule to review the project brief, which the client will send us over, which pretty much has the synopsis of the book, trim size, those kind of things, and then has any design inspiration they are requesting that they see in the presentation that we send over. It also might have, like, cover inspo of work that's already out there that would fit the space just depends. It varies. And some clients provide a lot of information within their project brief. Other times it's a little lacking in information. And we'll have to hop on a phone call and be like, okay, can we talk ideas for this book? Do you have anything specific in mind? Those are helpful. Hopping on calls are helpful. When the brief doesn't have much going on in it, but once we review the project folder and feel good about what the project's about and what the expectations are from the client, we'll then have pretty quick turnaround on how much time we have to work on these comps RStudio provides. It varies depending on the project, but about three coverage designs which are just completely different, unique options to present to the client.

[B]

Olivia, did you see the early variations or you only saw the final version?

[A]

Okay, so this is kind of interesting actually, because this was a redesign for the paperback. It was a little bit different of an experience. So for my first cover, I just got the concept and they were like, this is it. Which is very typical when you're working with a publisher. That is generally how it goes and you have the option to provide feedback. But it's not like, choose from all of these. But with this I actually saw two. So maybe you sent them three and they nixed one and then I chose from the two. So I don't know if that was because they were going back and forth between them. I recall that there were things they liked about both of them and I was like very strongly drawn to one, which probably made it easier for them. But I wanted to ask you, I guess in that brief, probably they told you like, oh, we want this to have some sort of tie into the first cover in some way. Like not exact, but like color scheme or vibe.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. To tie into your specific job. When we got the brief, it had your previous cover on it and mentioned that they want to maintain that similar vibe the topic of the book wanted to match. Still have that, I think, social media esque vibe to it. That brief specifically was in reference to your previous book cover and what they wanted to see moving forward, how they wanted to refresh it, all those things. So we still provided, I think three cover designs for that specific job. And it's kind of funny because. Because of how many opinions are in play when presenting cover design. And so it's. You think some people would think like this is getting delivered directly to the author, but there are plenty of other people in the mix that weigh in on the COVID design and.

[B]

Wait, backing up a second, Olivia, were you privy to conversations about why the paperback was going to have a distinct cover from the hardcover? Because I know sometimes with a book, the hardcover is almost exactly the same to the paperback. Maybe just like scaled down or like they add, you know, like a bestseller sticker or however many copies sold or, you know, they'll tweak little Things, but, like, largely the COVID is the same versus yours. Kind of went through a full redesign. Like, it looks. They're cousins, but I don't think they're sisters.

[A]

Yes. I actually think the other option was a little more sister like. But I just. I absolutely loved the design that we ended up going with. And sometimes I'm very like, you guys are the experts. But with this one, I was like, this is it. Like, choose this one, please. I beg of you. I love it. But so what they told me was partially. It was a timing thing, I think, because they wanted the paperback to come out closer to when my second book is coming out. And then because we had more time, they were like, I think this could be a good opportunity to reach more readers, because the first cover reads very thriller, and I think a lot of the feedback has been like, this isn't thriller enough.

[B]

I think that the first cover reads strongly beauty, because it seems like a blush, like, compact that's been kind of, like, crushed. So I get thriller, but I more so get beauty versus the second cover. I think I get more thriller because of the camera eye, like, the creepiness of it.

[A]

Oh, I can see how, in terms of the actual things on the COVID you would think that, but for me, it's more like a. A vibe thing, and maybe it comes down to fonts and stuff as well. And funnily, I think the other option I saw also had a makeup reference if I'm. Oh, wait. And the current one still does, too. It has mascara.

[B]

Yeah. It has eyelashes.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[C]

I think I remember from the brief, them mentioning that they wanted the concept to be this perfect facade represented, but then with something just off, not quite right. Just. I think the main character, correct me if I'm wrong, had this whole influencer Persona that she was. Grew up in front of in the limelight, I guess you would say. And. But then all of this. All this stuff went down with her and she went missing, correct?

[A]

Yes. Yeah. So, I mean, you did a great job. I absolutely. When I saw the camera in the eye, I was like, I love this so much. It just felt so smart and sharp.

[B]

And so going back to Molly, with this cover specifically, you get the brief and you see the past cover, and you get kind of the details of what they want to change about it. And are you, like, kind of immediately going in and you're like, I have ideas, or are you doing any kind of, like, comp. Research to be like, let me see what other influencer thrillers look like? Or, let me see. I Don't know. Like, are you kind of going and sourcing your own inspiration or it just, like, you intake that and you're like, I don't want to see anything else? Like, I. I have ideas, I think.

[C]

For this specific job. I want to say I did hop on a call with my contact for that project, and so we kind of brainstormed some ideas there as well. And then also a lot of times I do like to just get the ball, get the creative juices flowing by just looking at other covers out there that fit the genre. I think that usually helps. I think it's important to know the space that the book is going to sit in when it's released, so you can kind of adhere to what's out on the bookshelves right now and what's going to fit in well, but also kind of stand out a little bit. And so I do like to draw inspiration from other existing covers that are out there. A lot of the times it's just diving in with some ideas and seeing if they work. Sometimes they crash and burn, and then you just have to move on to the next blank canvas. But a lot of times it just varies. Yeah.

[B]

So you're providing, let's say, three options on any cover you design. Maybe less, maybe more. I feel like it would be natural that you would kind of have a horse in this race that you would be like, this is the one I want. If you had to ballpark it, like, what percentage of the time are people going with the one you want versus they're going with not one that you want?

[C]

That's a good question. I think for our studio specifically, we try, because we're sending three very different options. We try to just make sure we're sending three comps that we're proud of and we're stoked on, and regardless of which one they choose, we'll be happy about do. I think that actually happens all the time. I think a lot of times I do end up having a sneaky favorite that I wish would get chosen. Doesn't necessarily happen all the time, or clients will come back choosing one, but wanting to tweak it a little bit, and then it's no longer that original design you had. And so I think that's one of the tougher parts about this job, or not tougher, but just something I had to learn over the years is to have a little bit of an thick skin and also be able to not hold so tightly onto a project and be willing to kind of go with the flow a little Bit more, because at the end of the day, this is somebody else's book, you know?

[B]

Well, I think that's so difficult because I'm just speaking from the author side here. It's like you've spent years with a book writing it, and, you know, it's a creative project, but I think in many cases, authors don't have a visual language for what it should look like. So it's, you know, it's like. It's hard to explain what your vision is. And so it's more like it's like the Supreme Court quote, where it's like, what is pornography? And it's like, I'll know it when I see it, versus, like, I don't think I have the right language to be like, this is what I'm seeing. But it's more like, oh, no. Which I imagine would be so frustrating to a designer because. And that's probably also why authors usually don't get involved in a lot of the early rounds, because I think it would be even more infuriating.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the cool part of the job, though, is that, I mean, that is our job, is to be able to visually storytell and do it accurately into the story's justice. And so I think that when an author comes to us holding tightly onto their baby, and we want to be able to understand what the book's about and convey it to the best of our ability, and sometimes that's not what we think it is. Sometimes it's somebody else's opinion that outweighs ours. And I think that's part of the job.

[A]

Do you think you're pretty much unfazed by, like, the rejection part of it? Now, as you were saying, like, do you think you've really just developed that thick skin, or are there still times when you're like, oh, I disagree with them so completely, and I love this so much, but it's just the job.

[C]

I think over the years, I've gotten a little bit better about it. I do remember first starting out being crushed by things that I thought were a done deal. But, I mean, every now and then, you still work on that project that you just are so attached to, and you think, this is it, and this is going to be like, what is it? Magnum opus. This is going to be my defining moment. And then they come back and they want to tweak some things or change some things or gut it, and you have to just realize that, okay, maybe I wasn't right. Maybe I was looking too closely at it and let's take a step back and see if we can create something cool that's in a different space.

[A]

Do you ever find that you. You feel that way, you go through that experience and then the end product is stronger?

[C]

Oh, I mean, it's very humbling how often that actually happens. Or it's also kind of cool that you've felt like you created something cool and then you also created something else that was cool. It just was like, oh, I can do my job, I guess, and go with the flow and change stuff when I need to, and it'll also still be cool. That's. I mean, design is very subjective too. And so maybe somebody else thinks something is cool and you don't, or somebody else thinks something cool and you've never realized that was also cool.

[A]

It's a lot like editing, I'm sure.

[C]

I'm sure. Can I ask you a question?

[A]

Me?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, Olivia.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

What work? I guess either of you, Becca and Olivia, what working with editors are like. I know on my end how often I end up working with editors on a cover design project. And I'm just curious your guys end of things.

[A]

Well, I guess every book and every editor is a bit different. I've worked with two editors now who have slightly different styles, but kind of like you said, like, sometimes there's feedback where your immediate gut reaction, and Becca can speak to this too, of course, is like, oh, no, like, I liked it the way it was, or I don't want to get rid of that. But I think with time you get better with either trying the change or trying the change a different way. Like, sometimes the thing they want to change is completely right, but the way they're suggesting you change it is not, you know, so then you figure out a different way to get to the same change, the same conclusion. So it's, it's collaborative, but it does take a lot of putting your ego aside and being like, oh, I spent so much time on this thing, I feel so attached to it, but actually I'm going to challenge myself to fix it. What would you say, Becca?

[B]

I would say one thing that I think is interesting and people might not expect is that at least with my editor, and I've only worked with one editor, so my experience is completely specific to her, is that usually the edits are not prescriptive. So it's more about identifying here is a problem. And maybe it's that a character feels flat, or maybe it's that the book is too long, or maybe it's that you Want to turn more of a dial up on this plot line or element. But it's largely not prescriptive in terms of here's how I think you should fix it. For my editor, usually I get, especially in early rounds, I'll get an editorial letter which is, you know, anywhere between, in my case, like, I don't know, three to five pages of notes. And it's a mix of here's what I like about this book, here's what I think needs to be worked on. Sometimes it will have a very specific prescriptive change, but by and large in the earlier phases, it's more like, I don't know if this is working, but there's not necessarily like, here's how I think you should fix it. And then we kind of get on a call and you're usually multiple calls and there's kind of a brainstorming process together of trying to figure out what that looks like. Because I think, like Olivia said, it's really hard. You're sitting there with this book for thousands and thousands of hours and you know, thinking about every element. And so it's, it's really hard for somebody to come in and be like, here's how you fix this thing. And also I think as the author, you want to have like a proactive role in that. And so it's much more collaborative and it's much more, more open ended than, you know, somebody coming in and being like, cut this character, do this, do that. And you're kind of just like the chef who's like the line cook who's executing.

[C]

It's so funny how similar our side of the industry is too. And they'll come back with feedback. And sometimes the feedback is definitely not concrete. Like make this type bigger, change this to red. It's, hey, this tone isn't quite there. What can we do here to shift things up a bit to get us all the way there? So I think similar vibes. Sometimes it feels like we're just, yeah, part of the machine. But for the most part it's cool to see the collaborative process and how that plays out and how much cooler something can be when multiple ideas are in the mix.

[B]

So I just told you something that I think would surprise our listeners about how the editorial process works. Is there anything that you think would just like blow people's mind or maybe that's too extreme, but just surprise people about the book cover process.

[C]

I think that we've kind of touched on it now is just, I didn't realize how many different parts of the publishing industry are involved in it. There's the marketing team. The editor is actually has a bigger role in the COVID design than I even realized starting this job than. I mean there's the designers, then the author. And so I think just the amount of people that have a role in getting this book out there is pretty.

[B]

Interesting to me from my side, I think our listeners would be really shocked to know how little or how small a role the author usually has in it. So it's language and contracts is usually meaningful. Consultation is what the author gets on covers. And I've had experiences. Like I know my friend Hannah Orenstein who just had her book main characters come out, provided incredibly detailed mood boards and this is just her personality too of other covers she liked and potentially potential design directions. Like she had a whole PowerPoint deck of inspiration. Whereas in my case, I think this was largely because my first book was a very tight turnaround by publishing standards from when it was bought to when it was published. I wasn't involved at all in the briefing process. And so I just got three cover options which interestingly none of them are directionally where we ended up. But that was the first time I saw anything having to do with a cover was actual comps as opposed to, you know, any conversation about, like, how do you see the COVID what do you want it to look like? As the author, I think, you know, I'm the expert on my book, but I'm not the expert on the holistic publishing industry and what types of covers are selling, what types of covers retail accounts are buying. I think that big accounts like Target or Barnes and Noble, you know, have a horse in the race of, you know, this is what we're seeing, this is what we like. And so, you know, if you're trying to sell into these major accounts, that gets taken into consideration. And you know, I think as the author, maybe my point of view is that I want something totally original and totally different than any other cover. But from the internal side in marketing and sales, there's something to be said for familiarity of like, oh, using like cartoon people covers as an example. It's like I understand what to expect from this book based on what this cover looks like. Like there will probably be open door sex scenes. It's like the cartoon couple that are embracing or something. You're like, oh yes, I understand what this is in a shorthand way without even reading the back cover copy.

[C]

Yep. I think it's all about a balancing act and I think us as designers are on the side of the author and that we want something completely original that's never been done before. But then we don't have that brain that's thinking about marketing and sales and what's. What's doing well out there, what's trending, what are people going to gravitate towards right now? What. What are they immediately going to recognize as this is what I want to read.

[B]

Can I ask you a kind of spicy question that you are welcome to decline to answer?

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So I've noticed a few instances over the last couple of years of what I would almost call purposeful cover confusion, where it's not the instance of, like, oh, yes, a Tessa Bailey cover has cartoon people, and an Emily Henry cover has cartoon people, but they both have their own aesthetic. And, you know, they look kind of completely different. But seen a couple instances where covers look like they're the same on purpose. And I'll. I can even use an example. I don't remember what the second book was, but there was a book where the COVID looked almost identical to Lucy Foley's the Paris Apartment. Like, even down to the font, where it almost looked like it was the same book cover, like the colors, the font choice, the picture in the background. And I was like, why? Because I don't think the answer is that nobody knew from our side.

[C]

When we get a project brief in and we see cover inspiration attached to it, I think we have to take that with a little bit of a grain of salt just from our studio personally, that, okay, this is what they see they envision for the COVID Also, are they putting this in the COVID Because this is just a really popular book right now, and it's doing really well. So let's do something similar to that, which is totally fair. You want your book cover, your book to do well, to sell well, and all that, so you want to keep that in mind, too. But I think our job is to take that inspiration and try to do it in a new and inventive way. And I think there is that balancing act and those other opinions in play of, well, this is what's already doing well, so let's stick to what's doing well out there. And so how long do we want to keep doing something that's doing well from the designer's perspective? Not long.

[A]

I imagine it's a fine line just to walk between. You want to sometimes play into a trend, something that you know will work, but you also want to make it fresh. And I think probably sometimes speaking generally for book cover design, not specifically to face out I think it's. It's probably. Sometimes that line is not walked perfectly. Maybe that's what's happening, though. It's like, at one point, I wonder if cartoon covers were like a hallmark of one specific book, you know, and now it's like the whole genre of romance in a way.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that those romance cartoon books is probably like a hot topic of. Oh, my gosh. That style of COVID has been done a ton now. You go into Barnes and Noble and you go to the romance section and it's a lot of those style books. But yeah, it came from somewhere, it worked well for some reason, and you keep that going until it doesn't do well anymore, I guess.

[A]

I wonder what book started. It's a research project.

[B]

The Jasmine Guillory covers always had. And Jasmine Guillory was very early, kind of in this, like, contemporary romance renaissance. Her covers always had. It was almost silhouette people versus cartoon people on the earlier ones, but it had that right from the go.

[C]

I also feel like the goal in this transition of this kind of book cover design was to move a little bit away from that more risque, photo driven, steamy romance cover that maybe is a little bit less inviting. Not necessarily.

[B]

You wouldn't want to be reading in public. Like, you wouldn't want to have the Fabio cover on the subway necessarily.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think, I mean, that had its time and its place in book cover design too. And so we're transitioning into. I would even say, I don't know how much longer this cartoon rom com look is going to last, but that's what's trending and what's working and we'll see what happens next.

[B]

Do you ever get briefs that are like, we want to break the mold and do something completely different here? Is that based on the editor or kind of like how they feel about a book internally, or is it just kind of happenstance where it's like, oh, we just really vibe with this option that happens to be more different, or are they purposefully trying to go very different?

[C]

We love when we get a project brief that says, let's break the mold of what's already been done within this space. Like, does that always play out? Not necessarily, but it's just fun to play around. And sometimes it's like, let's break the mold on one cover design and see if we can get it push through all the way to the end. So we'll provide maybe one to two comps that are still fit the space of. What's that genre of Book's already in. And then one option that is a little bit of an outlier.

[B]

Well, because I know, for instance, you did the COVID for the Paradise Problem by Christina Lauren. And that feels very unique to me within the romance genre. It doesn't have cartoon people on it. It's kind of this like beautiful tropical motif in the background. But at the same time, I think by the time that book came out, they had a huge readership. So it's like people know who Christina Lauren is. And so you're not like necessarily relying on the COVID as much to introduce them to like what this type of book is. You're more like, oh, within their canon. Like, this one's tropical.

[C]

That's an interesting example too, because yes, that's a well known author. But for that one specifically, they sent a project brief that had all of that previous work and then was like, let's break the mold a little bit. Push into a different space while still fitting in the space. So let's push the boundaries a little bit, but not too far. And then. Yeah, I think that's how trends start transitioning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because now that I'm thinking about it, like, I don't think that Christina Lauren has ever really done cartoon people covers. And they're very early books. Like I'm thinking like the Beautiful Bastard series, they had kind of that like hot stock photo man covers. And then they kind of transition to almost what I think of as more Colleen Hoover covers with kind of like a vague floral or visual motif like I'm thinking of. I think Love, in Other Words was a big breakout for them and the original cover was just that like bright yellow orange and it had kind of three torn out slips of paper on it versus anything that really telegraphed romance.

[C]

For the Christina Lauren covers, they're transitioning into a space that is loosely conceptual. So ties in a little bit to the storyline, but then also ties in a lot to setting in an abstract, eye catching, bold way. Leaning heavily on title, readability and all that. But it's interesting to work with what.

[A]

Are like three favorite book covers right now that are top of mind. They can be ones that you've designed, ones that you've just admired, admired in the world recently. I want to know because I am always paying attention to book covers. I love it. I think everyone who's a reader and you who's designing them especially has a special attention and interest in covers and favorites.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, right now I would say in this moment, my favorite book cover is, which is just released. It's just gone live. I think it's the release dates in 2026, sometime that it's in print. But it's called the Long Con by Jenna Voris and gotta look this up. It is a story about two con women in Miami and it's a photo driven cover. I actually just recently posted it on my Instagram. Just the work that put in, I put into building that cover. And I think that's the reason why I love it so much. Other than it's pretty electric and eye catching, but it's also pretty heavily photo composited together an image of these two women.

[A]

It's very spicy. Like, not spicy, like sexy. Well, it is sexy, but it's like it like has this like heat to it.

[B]

It's very. It reads very like Miami Vice to me.

[C]

Perfect. That's exactly the vibe. That's the storyline, roughly. And I think that was just a really rewarding cover to work on. And it looks a lot like the round one cover that I sent.

[A]

So that's a satisfying feeling, I'm sure.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Olivia, what would you say is your recent favorite cover?

[A]

Ooh. In the world.

[B]

In the world.

[A]

I'm like looking around. I'm like, I need to see a book. Oh my gosh.

[C]

It's almost like you need to be genre specific.

[B]

I can go. I think one of my favorite covers, I mean, this was last year, but I think the COVID for the Wedding People where it's like the hand sticking out of the kind of illustrated painterly ocean and the hands holding a glass of champagne. I just. From the very beginning, I remember even before I heard any buzz for that book, saving it on Goodreads on the pure basis of the COVID I'm looking.

[A]

Through covers right now.

[B]

I didn't mean to put you on the spot if you don't have one.

[C]

No.

[A]

You know which one I thought was kind of interesting? I think it's called the Slip. It was just nominated for the Kirkus Prize, but it's like a boxing theme, I think. And it has like an interesting texture when you see it in real life. I think it's by Lucas Schaeffer. Anyway, I liked that one. But I like a lot of different types of covers.

[B]

That's so interesting because this book, to me, I'm looking at the COVID for the Slip right now. This immediately reads to me as ultra literary and I will not like the book based on the appearance of the COVID Oh, I.

[A]

Well, I thought it was really interesting and I also just liked how it's like an Image within an image. I like covers that have, like, texture or depth in some kind of interesting way.

[B]

But, yeah, I feel like we definitely. We don't have the same reading taste, but we definitely have a Venn diagram that the same cover can be your favorite and be something that I look at and I'm like, oh, no, this book isn't for me. It's interesting how we interpret.

[A]

Well, it's the visual cues from the COVID Well, it's interesting. I love the wedding people, but I didn't really like the COVID that much. So anyway, Molly's like, why are they debating about covers when I'm the extra?

[C]

Okay, no, that line. That's. Don't judge a book by its cover. We hope you do so well.

[B]

That's also the interesting and probably frustrating thing is that the person who's ultimately deciding about the quality of the COVID is the end consumer. In an airport, in a Barnes and Noble, on a Costco table, whatever. And it's not necessarily somebody who has, like, a strong visual design background, you know, and so it's like you're. You have to appeal to. You know, if you want to sell. Have a book that sells a million copies, you have to appeal to a million different people.

[C]

Yes, it's. It's an interesting job that I signed up for, but also very cool. I think you guys just showed a perfect example of how subjective design really is, because you guys have different tastes in the book covers you were drawn to, and I think that's okay and cool and, yeah, awesome part of the job.

[B]

So you gave us an example of a cover that you did design. Is there another favorite cover that you have that you're like, I wish I designed this.

[C]

I have an old coworker, Amanda Hudson. You guys should look her up after this, too. Pretty much everything that she designs I've in love with. If you go to her Instagram, you can see some work. She's highly illustrative focused, and she just creates cool, unique work that stands out in the industry, in the space. So I don't think I have a specific cover I could give you. I. Yeah. But everything she illustrates, it looks like.

[A]

She did Shred Sisters.

[C]

Yep. She did Pretty Boys are Poisonous for Megan Fox. She illustrated that.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Shout out to Amanda.

[B]

Can I give a non sequitur recommendation for our listeners? I have been fascinated, and I'm curious if either of you have seen this. Have you seen any of the videos? I get them on Instagram, but I'm sure they're probably originating on TikTok of Taylor Swift songs as book covers. Have you seen that?

[C]

Yeah, I've actually done one recently.

[B]

You have? I think it's so fascinating to see that. And at least the person I have in mind who I've seen them from, they kind of show, like, kind of a time lapsed, fast, sped up version of kind of playing with the different elements and like putting them in and kind of like changing the fonts. And I'm like, oh, my gosh.

[A]

I think I was like, I see. Yeah, I saw yours. Very cool.

[C]

Which song did you do? You are in love. Yeah, I did like two different covers of it.

[A]

I.

[C]

On my Instagram. I just started kind of curating my Instagram. I want to get my work out there a bit, and I just didn't want it to be straightforward work that I've done through the studio. I wanted to just play around. And so I was like, I should start just designing book covers based on songs. And that's just a fun side thing. So I've only done it a couple times, but it's fun. And then there's no. No opinion but your own on the.

[A]

COVID That must be very freeing.

[B]

I can't wait to. I can't wait to watch this after we get off the phone because I'm fascinated by these videos that I've seen. And it's something that we all have, like, or not everyone, but, like, for the most part, we have a common language for so unlike a book where it's like, well, I haven't read that book. I don't know if this is a good cover for that book because it's not out yet or because I haven't read it. I feel like, you know, most of us have an understanding of a Taylor Swift song, so it's like, oh, yeah, that is a good cover for that.

[C]

And I think what I enjoyed about doing this little creative outlet is that a lot of times songs draw from past experiences or just nostalgia in some way. So I've also done like a Benson Boone cover. I designed a cover based on just a moment last summer that was kind of an epic summer moment that we were listening to that song, and I was like, you know, I'm just gonna design a cover based on that moment and tie it into this song. So it's just fun.

[A]

It's good to have fun with the stuff that pays the bills sometimes and just think, I'm doing this for me. We talked a little bit about COVID trends, but I am wondering, like, is there any cover trend that you think will be really big in the coming years? Months, yeah.

[B]

Where do you think it's going?

[C]

It's a good question. I think it could go anywhere at this point. But I know that something that's been happening for several years now is just the digital space of book design and making sure things are legible at thumbnail and that you can read it online and the sales team can post it on Amazon and people can read it easily. So I think type is getting bigger and bolder, and color palettes are getting more electric and eye catching. I also know for print, sprayed edges, I don't know if you guys have seen. Sprayed edges are pretty big right now, printing on those edges. Special treatments. When we have an opportunity to do some kind of special treatment like a foil or a die cut. But that's always fun and pushes a book to a different level. So it'll be interesting to see what happens in the next few years.

[A]

The thumbnail stuff is. I certainly had no idea about it makes perfect sense. But listeners might be surprised to know, like, marketing and all, the whole team, they're thinking about what the book looks like in that very tiny thumbnail when you're scrolling on Amazon. And can they read the font and can they read the title? Are they gonna remember it? Never in a million years would that have occurred to me had I not heard it, like, in a meeting or in an email and been like, oh, yeah, I guess that's true. Like, it just. It never would have crossed my mind at all.

[C]

Sometimes a project will lend itself the opportunity to have, like, a small, quiet title size on the page, something composited in that way that feels light and airy. But a lot of times anymore, it's like, this looks beautiful, but when we shrink it down to 10, 20%, you can't see it at all. And you're like, you're right, you're right, you can't. But if you look at it at full capacity, you can see it. But it makes sense.

[B]

Molly, this has been such a fun and interesting conversation. Before we let you go, though, can you tell our listeners where they can find you online, especially so they can see this Taylor Swift and Benson Boom covers. And remind us one more time about the studio's name if anyone's thinking that they want to get in touch about working together.

[C]

Yeah. So first and foremost, again, I'm Ollie Von Borsel, and I work out faceout Studio. And if you look us up on Instagram, it's just under that same name, Faceout Studio. We also have a website, faceoutstudio.com I've started my own personal Instagram. It's just getting going, but MVB Create is my Instagram handle. But yeah, you can find [e-mail] for the most part. And thanks for having me guys. This was fun.

[A]

Thanks so much for being here. It was so interesting. I appreciate it and thank you for my amazing paperback cover. I love it.

[C]

Thank you for letting me work on it. Let's do it again sometime.

[B]

Let's take a quick ad break.

[A]

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[A]

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[A]

Caraway's cookware set is a favorite for a reason. It can save you up to $190 versus buying the items individually. Plus, if you visit CarawayHome.com BOP you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. The deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit carawayhome.com BOP or use code BOP at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern.

[B]

All right, Olivia, let's get into some end matter here. Tell me what you are obsessed with.

[A]

I am obsessed with clogs. And oh, specifically this pair of clogs that I purchased recently. They are the Sorrel Roman clog, spelled R O a M apostrophe N, like roam, like you're roaming. And I saw these on shopbop.com, which I like to browse a lot and just hurt my own feelings because I can't afford 99% of the things on there. But these I think were $150. I really liked them. I thought they looked kind of designer and they're very fall. They have these really cool studs on the front and then a rubber bottom for traction. And I just, I thought they were really unique and cool and great for falling. And I didn't get them. I had them in my cart, I left them, I came back and they were sold out and my size. And this created a need for me to have them even more because I was still thinking about them after these weeks. So I went onto the Sorrel website, I found them, I bought them, they arrived. They are the most comfortable pair of shoes I've ever owned. I wore them cooking dinner because they felt so good on my feet. They were just, just incredible. I love them. I can't wait to wear them and just, I don't know, roam around my House or wherever. But yeah, clogs, I love them.

[B]

Adding a new title to your bio, Clog evangelist.

[A]

I should be Dutch. I really should be a Dutch person in another life.

[B]

I think those are wooden clogs, which sound uncomfortable.

[A]

Yes. I have heard that the wooden clogs with the wooden bottom are really hard to deal with. These are like a modern clog, I think. What is your obsession?

[B]

My obsession is when we were in San Diego, my friend Merit bought a travel mah jong set from the brand oh my Mah Jong. And it was so handy because my mah jong set is quite heavy. I don't know how many pounds it might be, but it's not travel friendly whatsoever. And the racks that you need are quite large as well. So this is just like a sized down set. It comes in almost like it looks like a makeup bag. It was so handy. So if there's any mahjong players in the audience, highly recommend.

[A]

Yeah, my mom is. She's in the grips of mahjong. It came up about 40 times when I was visiting.

[B]

So this could be for her on the go. This could be a good Christmas gift.

[A]

That's true. I'll keep in mind. Well, what did you read on your nice this relaxing vacation?

[B]

Olivia, I'm so surprised at myself because I really expected to have so many books to tell you about. First of all, because we recorded our previous episode two weeks ago, I've done almost no reading and on this trip we were so busy playing games that I only made it through about half of a book. But I'll tell you what it is because I'm really enjoying it and I feel certain that I'm going to end up positive on it. So I have been reading Swan Song by Ellen Hildebrand, which is her final Nantucket novel that came out last year, and I feel like it's surprising that I haven't read it already. But I absolutely hate when things I love end. Like, I very famously will not watch the last episode of a show. I love if it's ending sometimes because I just don't want to acknowledge that it's ending. So I was being very stubborn about Swan Song. But because her new book, that's set in a different universe, it's a book that she co wrote with her daughter that's a prep school mystery, is coming out in September, I was like, okay, there will be more Ellen books. I can safely read this book. And I am enjoying it so much. I feel like it was an act of fan service on her part because it is stuffed with cameos of like favorite characters from past books, like people who haven't necessarily gotten a full storyline. Oh my gosh, I am loving it. So the main story in it, it's a mystery versus a romance. And the main story in it is about this mysterious couple who move to Nantucket and they buy this $22 million house that's going to sink into the ocean because of erosion within the next 50 to 100 years. They don't care. They're like these party animals. They're throwing all of these huge raucous parties on Nantucket. And before the end of the summer, the house burns down under suspicious circumstances. And the mystery element is very fun, but I think I'm loving it more for the cameo. So I would say this is an advanced level. Ellen, like this is not the 101. Everyone asks why. I will just tell you right now. The ones that I would suggest you start with. My favorite is the Blue Bistro, I think the Winter in Paradise series, which takes place on St. John. So it's still summer Vibes, even though it has winter in the title, are probably the two places that I would advise you to start. My other favorite is 28 summers, but it is very sad so only read it if you are looking for a sad book.

[A]

You heard it here.

[B]

So Those are my 101s. This is a 301 level and if.

[A]

You are an Ellen fan, perhaps you will like future episodes we have planned. That's all I will say.

[B]

What about you? You had a much more successful vacation of reading than I did.

[A]

Yes. So I read three books when I was in South Carolina. The first one I started when I was here because I was in the mood for a domestic thriller set in London, which is a vibe I have often. Specific. Oh, it's specific. Yet some days I just feel like it's the only thing that will heal me. Like it's just. It's a very specific craving that when it strikes, I must satisfy it. And so yes, this book is the Break in by Katherine Faulkner. And this is the woman who wrote Greenwich park, which I believe was about on paper book before I was a co host.

[C]

You are correct.

[A]

And this is about a woman, a mother, who ends up killing an intruder during a home invasion. He's a teenager and she's convinced that he was there for different reasons than just to steal things. I enjoyed this. My only complaint is that it was about a hundred pages too long for me. So I found myself losing a little steam towards the end. But this just Got a very good starter review from Kirkus. So I think that if you are into this kind of book, you should check it out for sure. And oh, it's just the perfect thing to read like a rainy, moody fall day. I think you'd really like it and I think this one comes out this week. I also read the Safekeep by Yael Vander Wooden.

[B]

This book to me had such Olivia mentor vibes. I've been waiting for you to read this and I know I got it wrong with writers and lovers. So is my picker broken?

[A]

No, I loved it. I loved this book. I thought it was beautiful. And the thing I loved the most about it is I was prepared for the longing, the romance, the beauty, but I was not prepared for how twisty it is. And it got me good. And I was like, oh yeah. Oh. And that's what propelled it from I would say a four star to a five star read for me was it gave it that edge. And yeah, I just loved it. It was so interesting and it was such an interesting perspective on the Netherlands that I had never thought about at all like in terms of history. So loved it. Great. Definitely. I think one of my favorites of the year and then another favorite of the year, which I've been meaning to read for years is the book Adelaide by Genevieve Wheeler, which I know you, you really liked this book too.

[B]

I loved this book. This book to me has tell me lies vibes, but different.

[A]

Oh, I kind of got Dolly Alderton a little bit actually.

[B]

Oh, I can see that too. But it has like this toxic relationship, doomed, yes, romance vibe to it, but very relatable.

[A]

Yes. I meant to read this book forever. I bought it. Somehow it ended up at my parents house. My mom read it and loved it because she had it there because I'd left it there. And for whatever reason I just, I kept forgetting to take it home with me or whatever. And so I finished the books I brought on the trip to South Carolina. I saw this book and I was like, I'm finally going to read it. I started it in the pool at like 3 or 4pm and I finished it by that night by like before dinner, like at 8pm I loved this book so much and I wasn't maybe immediately drawn to it because it's about a woman in her early twenties in a situationship. It's about dating. I have not been in my early 20s or dated in a very long time. And so I was like, I don't know if this is going to speak to me. And the way I felt, once again, the experience of being so deeply into someone who is so clearly not it for you, but you're convinced that it is. Like, it all came rushing back to me because who among us hasn't been there? And it's just such a tender and human book. I don't know. It captures human emotions so well, and it's just so warm. And I loved it. It so much.

[B]

I specifically recall having a false start with this book that I opened it, I read the first chapter, and I put it down, because the pitch for the book is about kind of this lightly toxic relationship and, you know, about dating and, you know, moving to London in your 20s. And the book opens with a suicide attempt that is. Is very integral to the plot. But it was so jarring and unexpected for me, and I was like, oh, I don't know if this is what I thought it was, but I'm so glad I persevered through it. So I'm just telling you that in case you open the book and you're like, oh, this isn't what Olivia described.

[A]

Yeah, go in with an open mind and know that there is some tough subject material. But I think it's all done very well and sensitively and. Ugh, yes, it's. I just. I really loved it. I really loved it.

[B]

Well, Olivia, we did not have it picked when we recorded the last episode, but we do now. Tell us about our September book club pick.

[A]

Our September book club pick is Notes on your Sudden Disappearance by Allison Espach, which is her book that came out before the Wedding People. I'm sure most of you have read the Wedding People by now, one of Becca and I's shared favorite books. And I read this one this summer, and I loved it even more than the Wedding People. And I love the Wedding People. I think it is a superb book. I think it's best to go in with very little information, but it's essentially about two sisters and what happens when a tragedy sort of blows up their family life. What you should know is that the title kind of makes you think it's a thriller or like a kidnapping or missing person story. It is not. If you liked the Wedding People, I think you will really like it a lot. It is kind of also in that same vein of a lot about deep human emotion, deep character work, and just incredible writing and very funny in a dark kind of way. I have gotten so many messages from people who heard me talk about this emphatically this year and then checked it out from the library because it is a backlist title or found a copy of it and they loved it too.

[B]

I think it is free on Kindle Unlimited right now too.

[A]

Yes, I didn't know, but happy coincidence. So hopefully one that's easier to access than some of the newer books. We do a nice backlist option. I also think there's something about this book that has a weird sort of back to school energy about it. Even though it is about heavy topics, I think it's good for this time of year. It's one of my favorite books of all time, one of my favorite last scenes in a book of all time and I hope it makes everyone feel as many things as it may me feel.

[B]

Well, I can't wait to read it. This one's been on my list so I'm excited to check it out. In the meantime, if you would like to talk to us, you can join our Facebook group under Batonpaper Podcast. You can follow us on Instagram @Batonpaper Podcast. We have, confusingly what was formerly a Geneva group. It has been bought by Bumble and it is now under BFF Group if you can find it. I have not gone through this process yet. I'll deal with this when I get back from Sicily. It is under Badon Paper Podcast. It is like a chat room app where you can talk about all different sorts of things. Specifically the BOP Swifty Chat is what's keeping me up to date on all of the Taylor Swift updates and theories.

[A]

Which we will talk about at some point on the podcast. We I've gotten some requests. I'm assuming we will talk about the engagement soon. No, I don't know.

[B]

I don't. We'll see. Okay, I am on Instagram beccamfreeman and my newsletter is@beccafreeman substack.com and I am.

[A]

Pretty much everywhere at oliviamentor. And you can pre order my book Little One, which comes out in February right now and I would be so thankful if you did.

[B]

We'll see you next week. Bye Bye.