How Realistic is “Younger”’s Portrayal of the Publishing Industry?

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: Episode Summary

Title: How Realistic is “Younger”’s Portrayal of the Publishing Industry?
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Release Date: February 19, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Bad On Paper, hosts Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter delve into a thoughtful analysis of the TV show Younger, particularly focusing on its depiction of the publishing industry. As Younger experiences a resurgence on Netflix, the duo examines the show's realism, discussing various aspects of the publishing world as portrayed through the lens of the sitcom’s narrative.

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Highs and Lows

Before diving into their main discussion, Becca and Olivia share personal highs and lows, creating a relatable and intimate atmosphere for listeners.

Becca’s High

Becca shares her excitement about visiting an art café named Happy Medium, describing it as "an art cafe where you can engage in various art projects like pottery painting, watercolors, and more" (01:00). She emphasizes the venue's affordability and the relaxing environment, stating, "I want it to exist everywhere because it scratches such a specific itch of wanting to hang out with your friends but not eating or drinking" (02:38).

Olivia’s High

Olivia recounts attending an event at her local bookstore featuring authors Rebecca Mackay and Danelle Mengestu. She highlights the enriching experience of interacting with established writers and the excitement of supporting fellow authors (04:22). Additionally, Olivia shares a humorous anecdote about her stick figure drawing of a character, which gained unexpected attention, making her feel both thrilled and humiliated (06:07).

Becca’s Low

Becca discusses feeling under the weather, experiencing mild symptoms and uncertainty about her health, which impacts her energy levels (10:29).

Olivia’s Low

Olivia expresses her frustration with persistent winter weather, particularly dealing with snow and ice that disrupt her daily life (08:01). She laments the "endless winter" but remains optimistic about surviving it (08:43).

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Main Discussion: Analyzing “Younger”

The core of the episode revolves around dissecting the portrayal of the publishing industry in Younger, assessing its accuracy and entertainment value.

Initial Impressions and Nostalgia

• Wardrobe and Era Depiction: Olivia is struck by the show's wardrobe, finding it reminiscent of her late college days. She remarks, “I cannot believe we dressed this way” (14:44), highlighting the nostalgic elements of the characters' fashion choices. Becca concurs, noting that the show felt chic at the time of its release (15:48).

• Cheesiness and Writing Quality: Both hosts acknowledge the show's cheesiness, especially in its first season. Olivia mentions, “I was like, wow, it was pretty bad,” referring to certain dialogues and character interactions that felt forced (17:44). Becca reflects on the show’s trajectory, suggesting that the emotional depth and dialogue improve over time (17:51).

Realism in Portrayal of the Publishing Industry

Office Environment

• Aesthetic vs. Practicality: Becca critiques the show's portrayal of the publishing office as light, bright, and minimalist, contrasting it with her real-life experience of publishing offices being more cluttered and utilitarian. She notes, “There wasn't very much book clutter in this office. It was just, like, light and bright and pretty minimalist” (29:00).

• Roles and Responsibilities: Olivia questions the depiction of roles within the publishing house, particularly the portrayal of Diana Trout, the head of marketing, and her interactions. They discuss the ambiguity of job titles and responsibilities, leading to some confusion about the actual dynamics in a publishing office (20:35).

Slush Pile and Manuscript Handling

• Inaccurate Representation: Both hosts critique the show's representation of the slush pile, noting that major publishing houses typically require manuscripts to be submitted through agents, rather than having a physical slush pile of unsolicited manuscripts. Becca explains, “Big five publishing houses don't accept unagented manuscripts” (29:33).

• Role of Agents: Olivia emphasizes the importance of literary agents in the submission process, arguing that the show's portrayal overlooks this crucial aspect, making the discovery of authors directly by editors unrealistic (30:42).

Marketing Campaigns

• Exaggerated Marketing Efforts: Becca points out that the show's marketing campaigns, such as grandiose authorship promotions and viral marketing stunts, are more exaggerated than what typically occurs in real-life publishing. She contrasts this with actual industry practices focused more on professional gatherings and book fairs (25:13).

• Merchandising: They discuss the reality of branded merchandise in publishing, agreeing that while the show incorporates elements like T-shirts, the scale and integration of such marketing efforts are overstated (26:19).

Author-Publisher Relationships

• Portrayal of Authors: The discussion touches on how the show often depicts authors as either difficult or engaged in unethical behavior, which Becca finds unrealistic. She mentions, “every author is either crossing a really bad line or, like, at one point, they plagiarize a story” (35:09).

• Professional Boundaries: Olivia raises concerns about scenarios where editors and authors cross professional boundaries, questioning the show's handling of such relationships and its implications for real-life publishing ethics (32:23).

Character Dynamics and Plotlines

• Main Characters: Becca and Olivia analyze the relationships between characters, especially focusing on Kelsey (Becca's character) navigating her role in publishing while maintaining her facade as a younger individual. They debate the credibility of her motivations and financial decisions, suggesting that her pursuit of a lower-paying job might not align with realistic career progression (19:38, 22:39).

• Romantic Subplots: The transition from Kelsey’s relationship with Josh to Charles is discussed, with both hosts expressing preferences and critiques about the chemistry and dialogue associated with these relationships. Olivia favors Charles due to his natural chemistry with Kelsey, while Becca supports Charles’ more age-appropriate relationship dynamics (48:09, 49:02).

Comparison with Other Industry Portrayals

• The Bold Type vs. Younger: Becca briefly compares Younger to other industry-focused shows like The Bold Type, suggesting that Younger might offer a less realistic but more dramatized portrayal of the publishing world (44:26). Olivia expresses interest in watching The Bold Type to compare its accuracy.

• Historical Publishing Depictions: Becca reminisces about vintage portrayals of the publishing industry, mentioning figures like Sunny Meadow and their infamous office parties, suggesting that Younger could benefit from incorporating more historical or realistic elements (33:24).

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Insights and Conclusions

Realism vs. Entertainment: Becca and Olivia conclude that while Younger offers an entertaining and engaging narrative, its portrayal of the publishing industry leans heavily towards dramatization and simplification. Elements such as office dynamics, manuscript submissions, and author-publisher relationships are often exaggerated or inaccurately represented for the sake of storytelling.

Potential Improvements: The hosts suggest that future seasons of Younger could benefit from a more nuanced depiction of publishing practices. Topics like celebrity book clubs, the intricacies of book tours, and genuine internal office politics would add depth and authenticity to the show's representation of the industry.

Character Development: They emphasize the importance of natural chemistry and realistic dialogue in portraying professional relationships within publishing. Improved character interactions, especially regarding professional boundaries and ethical considerations, could enhance the show's credibility.

Overall Verdict: Younger serves as a "TVified version" of the publishing industry, striking a balance between reality and fiction. While it may not offer an accurate depiction of the intricacies of publishing, it succeeds in providing an entertaining narrative that resonates with audiences through relatable characters and engaging storylines.

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Additional Discussions

Beyond the main topic, Becca and Olivia share updates on their personal lives, including current TV show obsessions like Lost and Severance, and their ongoing reading habits. They also discuss upcoming book club selections and ways for listeners to engage with them via social media and newsletters.

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Notable Quotes

• Becca Freeman: "I want it to exist everywhere because it scratches such a specific itch of wanting to hang out with your friends but not eating or drinking." (02:38)

• Olivia Mentor: "I cannot believe we dressed this way." (14:44)

• Becca Freeman: "Everyone except for the big, big authors would probably be grateful that Diana wants to do anything for them." (35:31)

• Olivia Mentor: "I don't think every big author is that way. I think there are a few CANs." (35:53)

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Conclusion

This episode of Bad On Paper offers a comprehensive and insightful critique of Younger's portrayal of the publishing industry. Through thoughtful analysis and personal anecdotes, Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the show's strengths and shortcomings in representing the realities of the literary world. Whether you're a fan of Younger or interested in the intricacies of the publishing industry, this episode delivers valuable perspectives and engaging dialogue.

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Note: Timestamps in square brackets reference the corresponding times in the transcript for easy navigation.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Bad on Paper podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia, mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And today we are talking about the TV show Younger, which I think is having a little bit of a mini resurgence because it's now on Netflix. And Olivia, you'd never seen it, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

I had never seen even a single episode before this experience.

[Becca Freeman]

So we both watched the first season and I thought it would be really fun to talk about specifically the publishing aspect in it and how realistic we thought that was.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, it's going to be a fun conversation. I had no idea, like, how much of a fandom there is for the show, but there really is.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah. But before we get into that, let's do some highs and lows.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, so my high is that I feel like this is the second time that my high has been some type of pottery painting experience recently. But we're just going with it. So I went to this place earlier this week that I've been wanting to go. It's called Happy Medium. I think there's two or three locations in New York, and it's an art cafe. And so you go, you make a reservation and you get seated at a table and they give you a menu. And the menu is all different kinds of art projects that you can order. And so you can order pottery painting. There's watercolors. There was valentine making, collaging, like, charcoals, like all kinds of different things. So everyone can do something different and they bring you the supplies. I think the pottery painting was. I think, like, the base fee was $25 plus the cost of whatever you painted. So I think it was like $50 altogether. It didn't strike me as, like, totally unreasonable. And then there were some cheaper things. Like maybe watercolor was just $25 flat. First of all, I'm obsessed with this concept. Second of all, we went on a Tuesday night, so it was the after work crowd. We went at like 6pm it was the best vibes. Like, the lighting was kind of low. They were playing great music. Everyone was just kind of like, zoning out. You're at separate tables, but you're, like, surrounded by people all doing their art projects. Oh, my God, I'm obsessed with this place.

[Olivia Mentor]

What a great concept for, like, a modern version, totally, of things like this that have existed in the past. But it sounds really fun and relaxing.

[Becca Freeman]

I want it to exist everywhere because I think it scratches such a specific itch of wanting to hang out with your friends but not eating or drinking. It's not Exorbitantly expensive, but it's like a third place that you can hang out. I think the reservations are two hours long, so you definitely have meaningful time to do it and like a space to be creative that you don't have to buy all of these art supplies yourself, but can try different things. Oh, my God, I want to go every week.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds great. Were there a lot of people there on dates? Because I feel like it would be kind of a fun date spot too, whether a platonic or romantic date.

[Becca Freeman]

There were a couple dates. There were a couple of mothers with elementary school or middle school aged kids.

[Olivia Mentor]

Cute.

[Becca Freeman]

As we were leaving, there was a birthday party coming in which I was like, oh, I would do this for a birthday party.

[Olivia Mentor]

Adult or child?

[Becca Freeman]

Adult.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, adult.

[Becca Freeman]

There were no little kids. It was like we were seated near a table and I would say the girl was like 11 and just like very into making her pottery painting.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that sounds great.

[Becca Freeman]

I am obsessed and pottery painting is so relaxing to me. So I would do it all the time, but then I'm like, what would I do with everything I make? Because I'm decent at it, but I'm not so spectacular that I want to have all of my serving wear be things that I have painted.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Like a set of plates. That might be. I mean, it could be kind of cute, but yeah, I see your point.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Gifts, many gifts.

[Becca Freeman]

Any gift I give somebody else is also a gift for me that I got to have that experience.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a good way to do it, though.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. It's a gift for both of us.

[Olivia Mentor]

Everybody wins.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. What about you? What was your high?

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is that over the weekend I went to an event at my local bookstore with Rebecca Mackay and Danelle Mengestu. I'm sorry. I tried my best with the name, but I have been trying my best to prioritize learning this year. So really going to as many book events as I can. Like listening to authors talk, whether I know the author or I don't. I wasn't familiar with Danao, but I think his last book was on Obama's like, favorite books list at one point. So, you know, he clearly is way smarter than I am. And Rebecca, I read her second book. I have some questions for you. And I always hear amazing things about the Great Believers, which was her book that was, I think it was like shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Award. So anyway, I was just really excited to like be in their presence and learn and it was such a great conversation. They Both teach writing, I think, at, like, the MFA level. Anyway, that was lovely. But my high other than that was. I got to the bookstore. It was like, a Saturday, so I went there. Jake went somewhere else. We were gonna meet up afterwards for dinner. And it was just a lovely, snowy night. I went to the back to buy their books. And there was, like, a little sort of local author chat happening. And one of the booksellers was there, and they were like, oh, my gosh, Olivia, I have to tell you this. So at this bookstore, I did one of my events there. For such a bad influence, when you do your event afterwards, the owner makes you draw a picture of your favorite literary character and then sign it, which is my nightmare as someone who is not artistically inclined.

[Becca Freeman]

Who did you draw?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, that's the linchpin of the story. So I was a second event there. And the first author had drawn this, like, amazing illustration of. I forget the character. And I drew a stick figure of Amy Dunne from Gone Girl with. She's holding a knife in her stick figure hand. And so at this event, the bookseller was like, I have to tell you, Olivia, Rebecca Rebecca Mackay was drawing her illustration. And you look at all the others, and she saw yours, and she texted a photo of it to Gillian.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I was like. I was like, I don't know if this is the most thrilling thing that's ever happened to me or I'm absolutely humiliated.

[Becca Freeman]

No, it's the most thrilling thing. You are supposed to be an author. You're not supposed to be a multidisciplinary artist.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you.

[Becca Freeman]

And I think that that would be so funny to get a text from, I assume, a friend with this terrible drawing of your character.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I was like, oh, my gosh. And then afterwards, I went up to Rebecca to get my book signed. And I wanted to be like, I am the artist behind the sticking.

[Becca Freeman]

You're familiar with my. With my art?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. You have seen my work before as well. But I was too shy. But anyway, it was just a really fun little experience, so I'll remember that.

[Becca Freeman]

That's hilarious. What about on the low side?

[Olivia Mentor]

My low is. Is very annoying. I try very hard to be a person who doesn't complain about the winter weather. But it has been snowing, like, non stop for two or three weeks. And I am over it. I am deeply over it. I hate ice because it scares me. And, like, that I'm gonna fall. Not just like, the. You know, the element of ice. Is ice an element? I guess it's water.

[Becca Freeman]

I would have given it to you as an element.

[Olivia Mentor]

Thank you.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I mean, if we think of elements as things in Captain Planet's cabal. Can't think of the right word. I want. I think there is ice in there. Isn't somebody? Ice.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, we'll go with that.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, I feel like it's dangerous and it scares me. And we have a lot of ice, a lot of snow. It is snowing right now, as I speak. We're supposed to get maybe like a foot this weekend. I just, like, when will it end? I was reading in my five year journal and like, two years ago on this day, I said, it's starting to feel like spring. Like, where is that? Where is that? It's an endless winter, but, you know, it's cozy. I'll survive.

[Becca Freeman]

Have we done Groundhog's Day yet? Has that happened?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, you saw a shadow.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, sorry.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. Yeah, it's. At least it's pretty, I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, correction for myself. Ice is not one of Captain Planet's elements.

[Olivia Mentor]

I was a little self conscious to ask this question. Who is Captain Planet?

[Becca Freeman]

Who is Captain Planet?

[Olivia Mentor]

Who is Captain Planet? That's why I was self conscious. I felt like I really was missing out on something important.

[Becca Freeman]

Captain Planet was a cartoon character from a 1990 cartoon that ran for five seasons. It was very, very.

[Olivia Mentor]

Did you just look this up?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or do you know this?

[Becca Freeman]

No. It's on my screen right now because I looked to see if there was one who was ice.

[Olivia Mentor]

She recited this so and so.

[Becca Freeman]

He kind of looks like Superman, but his hair is green. He's kind of an ice blue color. And he's very into. He's an eco warrior, basically. And then he has these helpers who are called the Planeteers, who are a bunch of, let's call them teenagers. And each of them is an element. And so it's Earth, fire, wind, water and heart. And when those combine, they form Captain Planet.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. Yeah. I'm glad I asked because I was just gonna go with it. Like, I knew what you meant. I thought maybe it was like, Captain Planet.

[Becca Freeman]

He's our hero. Gonna take pollution down to zero.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, wow.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. There's a song. Imagine my mind when you said Captain, Captain Planet's cabal. And I just was going with it. I was like, sure.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, his cabal is a bunch of who have a ring that can conjure him.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, you really missed out.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's power. What is your low?

[Becca Freeman]

My low is that I'm kind of. I've been dancing on this weird precipice for the second half of this week of. Am I getting sick? I feel like everyone's sick right now getting. And I don't feel terrible, but I feel weird. I was describing this to you before we started recording. I had a little bit of a sore throat. I feel a little brain foggy. Yesterday, I took a sip of cold water and then I just had chills for an hour. I just. I don't feel at my best, but I'm like, I got a flu shot. So I'm like, is this just my body fighting something off and this is all it's gonna be or am I about to get wrecked?

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, like I told you, I think the fact that you've remained. You haven't taken a dive, I think is a good sign that you may just kind of ride this out and feel like sort of bad but functional, which is an important difference, I think.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And it's fingers crossed for you.

[Becca Freeman]

It's Friday, so, you know, I have the weekend now and I feel like I have a pretty flexible schedule right now where I'm not on a deadline or it's not super inconvenient to not be 100%.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I hope you feel better.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you. Why don't we take a quick ad break and then let's get into this episode.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

I have also been so impressed with the accessories that I've gotten from Quint, especially their sunglasses. They come in their own little case. It feels like a very luxury sunglasses experience. Like they feel very solid, like they have a weight to them, like almost like designer sunglasses, but they are priced so reasonably. And I also love that they feel like designer sunglasses, but they don't have like a really obnoxious logo on the side or something. And I think that's like more chic, actually. I'm also dying to check out their T shirts because I feel like I need a new T shirt wardrobe that's just like high quality. Go to T shirts that keep their shape, keep their color. And I feel like Quint is. Is the place to get those.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Elevated basics I feel like is their jam. So give yourself the luxury you deserve with quint. Go to quince.combop for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com bop to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.combop all right, Olivia. So the inspiration behind this episode was actually from a Facebook group thread thread where people were talking about how they were rewatching younger or watching it for the first time. Very active thread. They said they would love to hear us talk about it. I was like, oh, that's an interesting idea. So listener inspired. But this is your first time seeing the show? I watched it before. I'm very curious. Before we get into kind of the publishing of it all, what were your top line reactions?

[Olivia Mentor]

So my top line reaction mostly was just about the wardrobe because it felt so specific to how I dressed in, I would say, late college and like the beginning of my career. And it was almost painful. It reminded me of, like, when years ago you would see clips of the 80s and you'd be like, I cannot imagine a world in which scrunchies and claw clips come come back. And then now I'm like, of course they would come back. So, like, rationally I know that, like, the statement necklaces will return, but it seems so impossible to me now that watching it was like, I cannot believe we dressed this way. That was the thing I kept thinking, I cannot believe it. I cannot believe the Sarah from Taylor Swift style refers to it as. I think the head belt, the headband that just went across the forehead around. Yeah, I had a lot of those. So it was really like the nostalgia of the wardrobe that stuck with me the most shockingly.

[Becca Freeman]

And I can't remember if at the time, because I think it came out in 2015, if it felt dated or if it felt chic then. And I think it felt chic.

[Olivia Mentor]

It must have felt chic because I remember, God, I remembered so many items that I had forgotten. Like, you know, the jackets that you put on, they had, like, the waterfall sort of hem. Like it kind of. And then the. The fur vest. That was a thing. Skater skirts. I could go on. The pattern mixing was absolutely unhinged. I like. But, yes, I believe that it was probably chic at the time.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Did you watch it when it came out? Were you obsessed with it? I definitely remember people talking about this a ton when I. I graduated college in 2015. So. Yeah, right. Right in there.

[Becca Freeman]

I loved this show especially. The first season was way cheesier than I remembered. And I wonder if later seasons are less cheesy or if it just is a cheesy show. And I was really blind to it at the time because the show had an interesting trajectory. I feel like I haven't looked this up, so I'm just going to recap it from memory and probably butcher it. But I think it originally aired on TV Land and then TV Land either canceled it or they didn't wanna make it anymore. So then it moved, maybe to mtv, to somewhere. ABC Family, somewhere else. It moved. And so I was like, oh, maybe under the TV Land umbrella. The first couple seasons were very cheesy. So I don't know. It was not what I remembered of it. I also was. I'm such a Hilary Duff apologist. I love Hilary Duff so much. Like, Lizzie McGuire is so important to me. I loved Hilary Duff's music career. So I just want to see nothing but good things for Hilary Duff. And so I feel like that's probably why I watched the show in the first place. And then also it was created by Darren Starr, who's the same creator of Sex and the City. So I was a pretty cheesy fan. Pretty cheesy.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's pretty cheesy. It was. I'll be honest, it was a hard watch.

[Becca Freeman]

In some way, I'm tempted to say that it does get less cheesy.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think that makes sense. And the Darren Starr of it is interesting because a lot of it, it forced me to think about if Sex and the City had been pg, what would we be left with? And it's probably something very similar. And I think part of the cheesiness is, at least in the first season, I felt that they were really trying to drive the sexiness. But then there's no actual sex, which is hard. But the publishing stuff was interesting. I had no idea it was set in publishing at all.

[Becca Freeman]

It remains hijinks y throughout the show. Like, I think the hijinks, I think. Which makes sense because of the nature of the premise is that she's 40, pretending to be 26. Like, it's a hijinksy show. But I do think that the emotional depth and the dialogue gets better. Like, some of the dialogue, and especially some of the things they made Josh.

[Olivia Mentor]

Say, I was like, wow, it was pretty bad. There were also things that were very 2015. Like, at one point, she says mouthgasm in response to food being good. And I think she's like, in that moment, trying to be younger. And I had this image of, like, oh, was that a thing that people said? And I think maybe, yeah, it was very cringey, but that's kind of the point.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, overall, how realistic would you say you found this to be with regard to your experiences of the publishing industry?

[Olivia Mentor]

This kind of felt to me like what someone who has never worked in publishing would assume. It's like. But there are also parts of it that felt real to me. I don't know. It kind of made me question, like, some things, if I had the right idea about things. It just. It all felt so cheesy. It was hard to think of it as real, I guess. But what about you? Like, did you find it realistic?

[Becca Freeman]

I thought it was the TVified version of the publishing industry, you know?

[Olivia Mentor]

Really?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Because, I mean, obviously everything was gonna be a little slicker. You're gonna ignore certain parts of things. I didn't think it was terrible in terms of how it portrayed it. Like, I wasn't like, wow, these people have no idea. Like, I don't think it was dead on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right.

[Becca Freeman]

I didn't think it was terrible.

[Olivia Mentor]

When you say it was the best it could be, do you mean the best that you have seen so far or, like, the best you can imagine it being?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, the best I can imagine it being. Because what other things take place in the publishing industry? The book publishing industry?

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm thinking of the proposal. Isn't that in book publishing?

[Olivia Mentor]

I think so. I guess I'm imagining a version, you know, industry. Of course, we've talked about industry. Like, give me the publishing HBO show.

[Becca Freeman]

The gritty drama version of it, Versus. This is. This is a sitcom, you know, like within a sitcom.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right. I mean, there's all kinds of, like. Like the yellow. Like, yellowface. Give me yellowface in a TV show when it gets into the dark stuff. Obviously, this is never gonna. This is TV land. They're never gonna be like, let's talk about racism. But, Yeah, I mean, but there was other things. Like the boss in the show. I forget her name.

[Becca Freeman]

Diana. Diana Trout.

[Olivia Mentor]

Diana in the show. Diana Trout. Yes. She's. She's pretty funny. I did enjoy the episod tooth fall, which feels like actually something that has sort of happened to me and something that would happen to me. But she's the head of marketing, right? Yeah, but she constantly refers to, like, her authors and her book. But it's. But actually, that would really be more than an editor would say. Right. I also questioned how much I knew. Like, I was like, maybe I'm wrong about all of this, you know?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I think as the head of marketing, it would kind of all be under her umbrella. But they do assign individual marketers and publicists to each book, so an individual marketer would have their authors.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. See, maybe I just have more to learn. That's totally possible. I mean, what were some of your high level thoughts about, like, the specifics of the publishing world shown in the show?

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like the office or the job roles or the slush pile.

[Becca Freeman]

So the first thing. Okay, the thing that immediately does not quite make sense is that Liza wants to. And, you know, she had a job in the publishing industry before, so she wants to get back on track. But also, it seems like there are a lot of money problems that she's dealing with. Becoming newly divorced. It sounds like her husband has a gambling problem. Whatever. She's supporting her daughter. She's trying to get an assistant job in publishing, where the salaries are maybe $50,000. And this in 2015, would probably be 40, 45. So she's trying to get a 40 to $50,000 per year job. And I'm like, ma'am, this doesn't quite track.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, you're saying she should be wanting to make more.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Like, the. By being 26, she's inevitably making less money. And she's doing all of this to get, like, a really poorly paying job.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right. I kind of saw it as, like, the only way she was gonna get back in the industry is if she started at the bottom again. And the only way they were gonna let her start at the bottom was to think that of her as 26. Otherwise, she had no job.

[Becca Freeman]

You're right. But it's a lot of finagling for a job to make $40,000 a year to live in New York.

[Olivia Mentor]

There are a lot of things here I had to suspend disbelief about, including. I mean, I hate to look at a woman and be like, does she look her age? But I did not look at her and see 26 at any point.

[Becca Freeman]

But, oh, I thought she did well. I think they definitely put less makeup on her when she was. When she was being her 40 year old self and she had more lines and then she looked much dewier and like, those lines were makeup magic, camera magic filled in somehow. I. I thought she passed ish.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ish. That's fair. I think ish is fair. The daughter did confuse me because at times the daughter looked the same age as which I guess then kind of does go with her looking younger. I don't know. It was confusing to me. I think the one plot line that I struggled to see is this would be a thing that would happen is the Joyce Carol Oates Show Us yous Oats campaign, which. This hit home for me because I've been watching Joyce Carol Oates masterclass. I think the woman is in her 80s and I just can't see her being like, this is what I would agree with. And I think she would be an author that would be able to be like, do not do this for my marketing plan. And I think some authors wouldn't have, say, like, you just. You kind of. They tell you what they're going to do and you're like, sure, I'm glad for any marketing whatsoever. But I don't know. I don't think show us your Oats would happen.

[Becca Freeman]

The scope of the marketing campaign, of all of the marketing campaigns they worked on felt like much bigger than would probably happen in real life. Although, to be fair, Joyce Carol Oates is a very big author. The other one I remember was when they start tweeting from Jane Austen to make her go viral. And I'm like, yeah, Jane Austen is a very powerful figure in the publishing industry. But, like, do you remember that episode where Jane Krakowski is. I don't know. I think she's supposed to be, like, kind of akin to like a Candace Bushneller or whatever. And they throw her this, like, sick party that looked like it was at some club in the Meatpacking district. And.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, Vine. That was the vine episode. And I felt so old.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, that felt like just the scope of the marketing plans felt really big relative to what most authors experience.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't even know if the biggest authors today get something as gimmicky. Like it's. It's more like you get a book club. Like, we're gonna. We're gonna fight for you to be a book club pick kind of thing. Then like, we're gonna throw you this huge party totally. And make you trend on Twitter. But also that's not how social media really works anymore.

[Becca Freeman]

I feel like the social media aspect is way more on the author. Although, who knows, Like Sally Rooney would never agree to this. But you know, if Sally Rooney would allow it, you know, maybe they would be tweeting up a storm trying to get Sally Rooney to go viral. But I feel like a lot of the marketing too, that publishing houses do is much more industry facing than public facing. Like huge activations at the London Book Fair or something. Do you remember seeing the huge activations they did for Yellowface there?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, but that doesn't surprise me at all.

[Becca Freeman]

Like branded kitted out booths and merch and stuff like that. And it's to give out to people in the book industry versus trying to get something to go viral to the public. I mean, the one thing that I did think was very realistic about the marketing was I can't remember what the Jane Krakowski character's book was, but they made a T shirt from it. And I do feel like publishing loves a. It wouldn't be a sized item, but publishing loves a branded clothing item. Like they love a hat, love a.

[Olivia Mentor]

Tote bag, love a hat.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you remember how much of a commodity the Sally Rooney beautiful world, where are you bucket hat was?

[Olivia Mentor]

No, I don't, but that seems right.

[Becca Freeman]

There was a moment because it was.

[Olivia Mentor]

The time of the bucket hat.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, there was a moment where that was such a if you know, you know, type thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

What would you want? Like in your ideal marketing world, what piece of merch for your book would you want to exist?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I think that's really hard because it depends on the book. So like for the Christmas Orphans Club, it would be really cool if there was like a Christmas ornament.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that would be cute.

[Becca Freeman]

Mm.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't imagine that the bucket hat really coincides with the book though.

[Becca Freeman]

No, it doesn't at all.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I wouldn't want a bucket hat. But you know, I doubt Sally Rooney was like, I sign off on the bucket hat. But maybe she was. Maybe she was into it. Maybe she loves bucket hats. It's so mysterious. We don't know exactly.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, I want to talk about the office. Have you been to many publishing houses offices?

[Olivia Mentor]

One once.

[Becca Freeman]

Did you find was it akin to this?

[Olivia Mentor]

Sort of. I guess it's a blur. It was a long time ago. It was an event with. I think it was Penguin Random House, but yeah, that was it, a long time ago. Did you find it accurate?

[Becca Freeman]

Not really. It was like the same flavor. It was much nicer. I feel like all of the publishing houses have gorgeous lobbies, and then, you know, they have nice conference rooms and areas, but, like, the actual where people work is just cubicles. And then there's some offices. Like, Kelsey would never have an office as an assistant editor. Like, there's just no way that she would have an office. But the thing about the. And I get why you would do this for tv. All of the books were very nice and, like, on shelves. Like, obviously, when you work in an industry where your product is books, there's just a lot of book clutter everywhere. Like, stacks of books. Piles of books like that need to go to people or that you have extras of. And, like, there wasn't very much book clutter in this office. It was just, like, light and bright and pretty minimalist.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, that's a good point. I kind of just. I don't know. To me, it was just like, this is an office in New York. But also, that was at the time when. Well, I guess publishing is much more traditional, but I feel like that was the time where every office plan was open.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Or at least that was my office. Any office I was in was just, like, an open floor of tables. Like, actually a nightmare. But publishing is more old school, so that. That does fit.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. The other thing that I found to be partially realistic but misleading was the episode about the slush pile. So.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, so in the show, Liza wants to be an editor, and Kelsey's like, look at the slush pile, whatever. And so there is a slush pile, but it would usually be on the agency side. And I feel like they largely kind of flattened and disregarded the role of agents in this. Which makes sense.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. That is the thing I wanted to talk about as well, but go on.

[Becca Freeman]

Which makes sense. Like, there were so many times. We'll talk about this after. There are so many times where it was like, oh, that would never happen because there would be an agent. But so Big five publishing houses don't accept unagented manuscripts. So you have to have an agent to submit a book to. Assume Empirical is supposed to be some type of Big five equivalent. And so Kelsey wouldn't have a slush pile. All of the manuscripts that would be coming to Kelsey would be coming via email from an agent who thought she might like it. You know, like, maybe there's things in her inbox, but she wouldn't just have a pile of, like, random crap that's, like, laughably bad at her disposal. And it certainly wouldn't be printed.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I thought that too, but I.

[Becca Freeman]

Think where there is a slush pile and there are these kinds of stories of, like, discovering something really amazing in the slush pile is on the agency side, where anyone can query an agent. And usually you don't query with the full book. Each agency has different requirements, so usually it's only the first 10 pages and it's happening again over email. So there's nothing. There's not just printed manuscripts, but especially at big agencies, there'll be kind of like just huge amounts of queries. And sometimes it'll be an assistant's job to go through and kind of screen those and find the gems within the haystack. That's a mixed metaphor.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I kept thinking of that. Like when Kelsey calls that teacher and she's like, this is the best part of my job and tells her, like, we want your book, is that experience is actually more often an agent telling an author. And then when a publisher wants it, it's the publisher telling the agent telling the author. Exactly. They kind of. Yeah, they kind of smush that together in a way that's not entirely accurate. Or I guess the. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

In the episode with Bjornberg, the Swedish author, who I was kind of guessing was supposed to be maybe like a Stieg Larsson Fredrik Backman composite, when Kelsey just shows up at the Swedish reading and then accosts him. Like, that would never. I don't know. I mean, I guess maybe if she was very bad at her job, it could happen, but she would be in such big trouble if she just, like, went and accosted an author and went around an agent that he didn't really seem to have.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also have not heard, again, I'm not like, the most in the publishing world. I feel like authors are a little bit outside of all of it in a way. You know, like, the actual, like, business is, like, more with the editors and everything. But I have not heard about, like, this type of crossing of a line much, but I.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you mean in terms of romantically?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Oh, have you heard this?

[Becca Freeman]

No, but it did really remind me of. Have you read any of the kind of, like, publishing lore stories about when Sunny Meadow was still alive and he was the head of Knopf?

[Olivia Mentor]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

He was, like, a very big personality figure in publishing for many, many years. He was the publisher at Knopf, which is, like, a very literary publisher. And like, back in the day, they used to have, like, wild office parties where I think people did hook up and, like, you know, somebody's office was the smoking room where everyone would, like, smoke Cigarettes indoors, and everyone would get, like, totally plastered and see, this is.

[Olivia Mentor]

The HBO publishing show I want to watch.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, it would have to be. It wouldn't be contemporary, which would be really fun to watch, actually. Like, it would have to be in, like, the 80s or 90s. Like, it was very much like the J. McInerney, like, bright lights, big city era of publishing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I just got a book. I think it comes out early summer. It's called Bittersweet. I forget the name of the author. The author is a former editor or publicist, and the story is about an editor who gets involved with her author, I think. So I'm actually really looking forward to reading it. I was hoping to read it before this so I could talk about it, but I'll report back. Yeah, I do wonder if this happens. I have to imagine it has happened.

[Becca Freeman]

I have to imagine it has happened. I don't have. And I love gossip, but I don't even have any whisperings of authors hooking up with their editors or agents.

[Olivia Mentor]

I also think that if it did happen, it would be a much bigger deal. Kelsey's kind of like, yeah, whatever. It's fine. Like, I'm just gonna lean into this. But that whole thing would have been handled much different in 2025, I think, on the screen.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, for sure.

[Olivia Mentor]

So that was kind of interesting to watch, for sure.

[Becca Freeman]

I think you can also tell from the first season that it's also gearing up for, like, a thing between Liza and Charles, which would be so scandalous.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, yes. Going back to the authors, though, on the whole, I don't think it really makes the authors look great. Like, every author is either crossing a really bad line or, like, at one point, they plagiarize a story or they're like a drunk, or they need to have their book fixed.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, you're actually really right. And, I mean, it seems like it's dealing with a class of very big, big authors, like, your A list authors. But I feel like at any publishing house, yeah, there would probably be some of those, but there's way more people who are your, like, toil and obscurity authors who are just, like, grateful that Diana wants to do anything for them.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, versus. That's me.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, versus. These are all the big and, like, very difficult authors, which I think exists.

[Olivia Mentor]

I've definitely heard rumors that there are big authors that are notoriously difficult. Can I tell you, I don't think it's the norm. I don't think every big author is that way. I think there are a few Can.

[Becca Freeman]

I tell you a story that I can't. It's like, I can't even tell you who it's about because I don't remember. But apparently somebody was telling me this story. I don't remember who told me. I just, like, have this disembodied story, which may or may not be true. Somebody was telling me about this big author who was really insecure about whether or not her agent was reading her drafts. And so she would put in Easter eggs that only the agent would know to see if she commented on it. She would name a character after the agent's son or drop in a detail about her husband, or use details like that to make sure that the agent was reading.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's kind of clever. I mean, I feel like if that's what you're doing, you maybe need to just talk to your agent.

[Becca Freeman]

But then it was, like, an open secret at the agency.

[Olivia Mentor]

That makes my stomach hurt. That's terrible. That's terrible.

[Becca Freeman]

But I have heard of other big authors who are difficult. Like, I definitely know. I've heard of big authors making publicists and marketers, like, cry on calls.

[Olivia Mentor]

Really?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I cannot even fathom that.

[Becca Freeman]

Or maybe I don't cry on the call. Maybe they cry after. But they're so. They're mean to an extent that there is crying.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man. I feel like my publishing team could literally just run me over with a truck, and I'd be like, thank you so much.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, that's the flip side. The flip side is, like, grateful for anything type of authors versus, like, if this doesn't make the number one slot on the New York Times bestseller list, there's going to be hell to pay.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. I think the show does kind of perpetuate this idea that, like, being an author is kind of easy, you know, or at least a big author, which maybe it is. I don't know.

[Becca Freeman]

Also, everyone is so hands on. Like, so hands on. Like, when Kelsey and Bjornberg are sitting in her office next to each other talking about line edits, like, just to give you context. And, I mean, I love my editor to pieces. Like, I just spent six months doing this big edit on my book, and so we had probably, like, three calls at the beginning to talk about things, and then in between, I emailed her, like, twice with timing updates. But other than that, I, like, didn't hear from her. Like, nobody is sitting next to me for six months being like, I think this word choice is a little wrong. Like, why don't we consider a different word? Like, it's very much toiling at your computer by yourself versus, like sitting next to somebody at a desk talking about every decision.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, the other thing I wanted to talk about was the literary awards that they go to.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you remember that episode? And I think it's supposed to be the PEN Awards, I think so at.

[Olivia Mentor]

One point I was really painstakingly trying to follow the directions in the Olive in June at home gel mani kit. So I might have been distracted, but yeah, talk to me about that.

[Becca Freeman]

So there's this instance where Bjornberg is getting the Scandinavian prize at the PEN Awards, which I think the PEN Awards are real. And they all go to this like, very stodgy type award ceremony. And so I don't know, I've never been to the PEN Awards, but I did get to go to the National Book Awards two years ago, three years ago. And it was very fun. It was not stodgy at all. It was a very different type thing. So some of the things were correct. The awards that I went to, it was at Cipriani on Wall street and Padma Lakshmi hosted it. And there was all types of, I think, video introductions from random celebrities. And it was kind of a dark and sexy room. And each imprint or agency or publisher had their own table. So that aspect was realistic. And I assume there's probably a lot of jockeying for table place behind the scenes, but the awards were definitely much cooler. I think Oprah, I don't know if she hosted them or if she got some type of award at last year's. And so Oprah was there. It was much cooler than that. And then afterwards, there's an after party that I think even people who didn't come to the awards get to go to. And I don't know that people are hooking up, but that's a sloppy, fun party.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, that sounds very fun. I've never been to anything like this. I. It's. It's really funny because I just joined a new publisher or started working with new publishers. So, you know, you fill out this gigantic form.

[Becca Freeman]

Like it's like a 30 page questionnaire or something.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. And it's like, what is your inspiration? Like, what kinds of essays could you write about this? Where did you grow up?

[Becca Freeman]

Where?

[Olivia Mentor]

What places have you lived and for how long have you lived in those places? Like, it's really granular. And at one point it's like, what literary awards would your work be appropriate for it? And I was like, not really familiar with the literary awards scene, but I'm open to any of them. I just. It's a whole other. It's a whole other level of the publishing world that I just, you know, I admire and respect, but it's foreign to me.

[Becca Freeman]

To be clear, I was not invited for my work as an author in any capacity. I was invited by Meta. Instagram had, like, a table of, like, book fluencer type people. And it was really, it was fun. I knew a lot of the people. I liked everyone who was there, but I did feel slightly like a zoo animal in terms of, like, people being like, oh, like, that's the influencer table. Like, we were also like, you know, the National Book Awards are very serious, like, literary authors. And, like, we were all, like, deeply unserious people at this table of, like.

[Olivia Mentor]

We were like, I would love to attend. It would be so fun. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, you know what I found interesting, and I don't know much about, but the Book Doctor episode where Liza was applying to be. I mean, I think a book doctor is basically just like a ghostwriter.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. Yeah, I was wondering about this too. I was like, I've never heard of this, but ghostwriter, yes. That makes more sense. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

This woman didn't seem famous enough to be using a ghostwriter. Usually a ghostwriter would be used for, like, a celebrity book. And I remember there were a lot of really juicy rumors going around when the Britney Spears memoir came out that it had gone through three different ghostwriters in terms of not being able to find the right fit and then doing rewrites and, you know, whose work was this? There was like a big drama about that. But yeah, I always find the ghost writing stuff interesting. Like, there's always rumors that I think this is actually true. Like, this isn't a rumor. But the woman who wrote the Sweet Valley High series, then later there were like, people ghost writing those.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I mean, there's always books that you don't realize are ghostwritten that are.

[Becca Freeman]

Right.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I think those are kind of like open secrets within publishing too, so.

[Becca Freeman]

But I think it would be less common for something like a fiction book that you pick up to be ghost written than, like, something written by a celebrity.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, definitely.

[Becca Freeman]

And this is actually a big thing in the uk, I guess so. In the uk, there's a lot of celebrity people who write fiction using ghostwriters. They're basically, like, trading off their names. And so Richard Osmond, I guess, who is kind of a talk show host type celebrity, he wrote the Thursday Murder Club, is one of the few who actually writes his own books. But I've heard that over there. The bestseller list is really dominated by these books written by, you know, members of parliament or who are writing, like, political thrillers or all of these people who have huge name brands, but then they're not actually writing them.

[Olivia Mentor]

I did not know that.

[Becca Freeman]

Which doesn't really happen in the U.S. like, I mean, like, Lauren Conrad had her, like, LA candy books that I'm sure must have been ghost written.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, my God.

[Becca Freeman]

Or like, didn't. Am I making this up? Did either Kendall or Kylie Jenner also have a series of, like, teen Gossip Girlish books?

[Olivia Mentor]

It seems. Right? I mean, Millie Bobby Brown.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, that was a scandal. It was ghost written.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

It was supposedly based on Millie Bobby Brown's idea, I think, but it was ghostwritten. And that was a big controversy of, like, you know, it got on the bestseller list and it. I don't know if it won awards, but, you know, it was getting all of this fervor, but somebody else wrote it. So I was going to ask you if you felt like the portrayal of publishing was more or less realistic than the bold type's portrayal of the magazine industry. But you said you haven't seen the bold type. I feel like there's so many magazine industry shows or movies like how to Lose a guy in 10 days or the Devil Wears Prada.

[Olivia Mentor]

My experience, I guess you could kind of call bustle like magazine adjacent. I don't know. Actually, did you watch both of these? Like, do you think the bold type is accurate portrayal of magazine? I guess.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I have no idea.

[Olivia Mentor]

I've never worked.

[Becca Freeman]

I've never worked in the magazine industry. It felt to me realistic as an outsider, but who knows?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'll have to. Maybe I'll watch it. I don't know. Would you say the bold type is better than this?

[Becca Freeman]

Yes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Maybe I'll give it a chance.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. But the sad part about the bold type is that it kind of ends abruptly.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, really? Was it canceled?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Aw.

[Becca Freeman]

So they do wrap it up, but it, like, isn't quite. I don't know if they had a whole season that they knew that it was the last season. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you think as Younger goes on, does it focus more on the publishing stuff? Less or the same amount? Cause I know the romance of it all, the sort of love triangle thing is a big part of it from what I've read. Right.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. The romance is always a big part. The friendship is also a big part. I would say it stays at this level, but it, you know, either every episode or every couple episodes there's some type of publishing thing. There's a big plotline, I think a multi season plotline with this author who I think is maybe supposed to be George R.R. martin, who's kind of like a lecherous old guy who is so famous that nobody can say anything to him and he's kind of skeezy.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. That's so very 20 teens, you know, it's perfect.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Is there an experience, I mean, we're only talking about the first season, so you don't know if it's been covered. But like, is there an experience of the publishing industry that you would want.

[Olivia Mentor]

To see if this was made today? I would love an episode that deals with like the behind the scenes of celebrity book clubs and like how they pick them like years in advance. And like I know for a fact there's gotta be so much drama involved there and promises and promises broken and how it changes things. And I would love that.

[Becca Freeman]

I'm like 90% sure there is an episode where they go and pitch somebody that's akin to a Reese's Book Club. I think I can't totally remember in a later season.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I'm sure that would make sense. I would love to see that.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Is there a publishing experience that you would want to see that they didn't cover in all the seasons you've watched?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I can't remember what is covered because I watched it in real time, so it doesn't feel super fresh to me. I would love to see the portrayal of the neurotic authority.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Which I think is very common in terms of, you know, freaking out about everything. Like, I think that would be a funny, fun, funny storyline. I would also love to see. I mean, I don't think it's interesting cause so much of it happens over email. But I would love to see they talk about it. That there's gonna be a big auction for the Ellen book. But I would love to see an auction play out on the show too.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, definitely. That would be great. I mean, I think that is what is tricky about this, is that they were trying to make it all happen in real life when so much of it is just literally emails.

[Becca Freeman]

Totally.

[Olivia Mentor]

Like, I think 99% of the experience in publishing as an author is just emailing.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, totally, totally. Oh, book tours could be fun too. To see something about book touring, which is. Honestly, I get asked so many questions about how book tours work whenever I do a question box and I'm like, I don't know.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know either.

[Becca Freeman]

I Would love somebody to explain to me.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, I guess the biggest question that I've gathered from season one and from what I know of the lore of the show is if you are team Josh or team Charles. So the first season she is pretty much only with Josh, but then Charles enters the picture and you can tell there's chemistry.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't know how they end up. Maybe I'll guess and you can tell me the answer later. But after season one, did you have.

[Becca Freeman]

A clear oh, after season one, I feel like that's tough because Josh gets so much more screen time. I mean, I am so team Charles. I think that Mariska Hargitay's husband, what's his name, Peter Herman, who plays Charles is just like so attractive. He is like designed in a lab, middle aged, handsome man. And I really like the idea of her having an age appropriate relationship where she's accepted for herself as opposed to the facade of the 26 year old fun projection that she's maintaining for everyone else. So I was always very Team Charles. But I do think Josh, and especially in later seasons, they gave him so much bad dialogue this season where it was like almost shameful. I do think that there's something compelling about him.

[Olivia Mentor]

About Josh.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, yeah. The whole show, which we haven't really talked about, is set and filmed in my neighborhood. So it's in Williamsburg, where I did not live at the time and has changed a lot since. Even the show, the first season of the show was airing. I was like trying to be like, oh, where's this? Where's this? He keeps referring to Williamsburg by like the dumbest names. Like he's like. At one point he's like, that's how we do it in the Berg. And I'm like, who says that?

[Olivia Mentor]

He's kind of cringe.

[Becca Freeman]

He's kind of cringe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

In a lot of ways. And he's like, I don't read. Is that gonna be a problem? I'm like, it might be, yeah. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

Do you have any inkling of Josh versus Charles from your first season reading.

[Olivia Mentor]

Even just from one season and the inequal screen time, I thought she had much more natural chemistry with Charles. And I don't know if that's like an age thing or like maybe it's slightly ageist of me, but I just felt like with Josh, and maybe this is also because of the dialogue, it felt so forced to me. I didn't like, it wasn't sexy to me. I don't know. I'm not. I Don't know. It just. I wasn't into it. I did see a clip on Facebook that says that he, like dates Kelsey at some point, which, wow. They really just wove those storylines together. But yeah, I'm team Charles.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. Now you said that you found it hard to get through and this was obviously a work obligation for you. Do you think you will continue?

[Olivia Mentor]

No.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. So you'll never know.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, I would, like, look at the Wikipedia page or something. I did. So I had been watching it as I was doing my nails and the episodes are so fast.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, they're 20 minutes.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I had actually started watching season two without realizing it. And then I went back to it and I was kind of like, no, I don't. I don't know if I want to go back to this.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

But I am intrigued if it does get better. And I do. I remember watching her get together with Charles. Like, I feel like the episode where they finally hook up would be a very good one. So I would maybe go to that episode. Like, I would. I would bop around. Do you think you would continue your rewatch?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I will tell you in our obsessions that I am very deep in a different show rewatch that is pretty all consuming. So I don't have time for it right now. But I do love the experience of a 20 minute episode show that you can kind of background watch.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. I think if I was doing more background watching right now, I would maybe stick with it just. Just because.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's get out of this. Let's take a quick ad break and then let's get into some end matter.

[Olivia Mentor]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I think that there are a few green flags that are great to look for in every relationship, romantic or otherwise. But first and foremost, I think the most important one is noticing the feeling that you get after spending time with someone. Do you feel good about yourself? Do you feel happy instead of sad? I can't imagine a bigger green flag than just recognizing that after spending time with someone. And I think that therapy is really what helped me be able to easily spot exactly this type of green flag.

[Becca Freeman]

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[Olivia Mentor]

I think a lot of people associate therapy with teaching you how to establish boundaries. But I think that learning to spot green flags is part of it, too. It can help you learn what you don't want in your life. Yes. And that's important. But it can also help you identify what you want more of in your life, too.

[Becca Freeman]

Discover your relationship green flags with better help. Visit betterhelp.com batonpaper today to get 10% off your first month. That's better. Help.com BatonPaper Olivia, we both have TV obsessions.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Well, you just mentioned yours. So tell us what you're rewatching.

[Becca Freeman]

So I am rewatching Lost. I feel like the experience of watching Severance. Did you watch Lost?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. I feel like the experience of watching Severance and especially like the unexplained goat room just, like, really gave me an itch to rewatch Lost. I have watched it. I know how disappointing the last season is, but. Yeah. And I'd been talking to a friend about it recently who had never seen it, and I told her she should watch it.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I just never seen it. How that was like. Everyone watched that show. I mean, everyone more than Game of Thrones. I think it was bigger than that.

[Becca Freeman]

So I've watched all of season one. I've watched a lot of it this week as I've kind of. I haven't really had any plans because I've been not feeling great. And then sometimes even during the day, I've been watching it when I been maybe sick. So it is a pristinely written show.

[Olivia Mentor]

I want to rewatch it again. I have trouble with the first episode because of the plane crash scene. So I might just like, skip that one or just skip that scene.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Especially because so much of that is just establishing who some of the characters are. So if you've already watched it, you kind of know.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. I was actually thinking the other day about how strange it is that very few actors from Lost really went on to have huge careers because it was the show. And so you would think that, like, all of them would be megastars, but it's almost like that's interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

I've looked up a lot of them as I've been watching to be like, what do you look like now? What have you gone on to do? And I mean, I do feel like, I mean, Ian Somemelheim. How do you say his last name?

[Olivia Mentor]

Somerhalder.

[Becca Freeman]

Sure. Who then went on to the Vampire Diaries is kind of like, Isn't Daniel.

[Olivia Mentor]

Dae Kim in it as well?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, yeah. Daniel Dae Kim is in it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Evangeline Lily is like an anti vaxxer.

[Becca Freeman]

I think Daniel Dae Kim has had probably the biggest career.

[Olivia Mentor]

Also, the guy that plays Ben, I think he doesn't arrive till later season. Is his name Ben? He has the glasses.

[Becca Freeman]

He's not there yet.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay. He's been in quite a few things, and he's always, like, very scary. He's terrifying, man.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

But of course, I don't know his name, so how famous could he really be? It's. Are you gonna watch the whole thing?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I think so. We'll see. Sometimes I get way too into a show and then I overdo it, and then I don't wanna watch it anymore. So we'll see if I get to that point. But, yeah, my plan right now is to watch the whole thing.

[Olivia Mentor]

I met someone the other day who is like a Lost superfan, and she goes to fan meetups, and she said she knows of someone who, like, owns the cage in Lost. There's a plotline with the Cage in later seasons, I don't know if you remember. And I was like, wow, this is.

[Becca Freeman]

A whole other world as I'm watching it. I remember it as I'm seeing it, where I'm like, oh, yeah. But, like, if you ask me right now to explain it, I just have, like, bits and pieces.

[Olivia Mentor]

Same. I, like, remember Penny. The plotline about Penny. I remember the numbers.

[Becca Freeman]

Yep.

[Olivia Mentor]

I remember the cage. Smoke monster. That's it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm a kid.

[Becca Freeman]

I remember things, but I don't remember it. Feels new to rewatch it.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'll have to join you.

[Becca Freeman]

Maybe it's a. I mean, especially in, like, these ongoing days of winter. I'm like, oh, it really is exciting at the end of the day to be like, oh, I can watch Lost now.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's a good point. I need that baby.

[Becca Freeman]

What about you? What are you obsessed with?

[Olivia Mentor]

I am so obsessed with season two of Severance. I feel like it was worth the wait. Even though it is so bizarre, like, every episode. I'm like, surely it will not be weirder than the last.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, I loved the one when they were out in the tundra.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. The end of that episode, man, it's. It's wild.

[Becca Freeman]

I was laughing so hard when you posted the other day where it's like, the thing that was the riff on this is the world's tallest waterfall.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's so funny. It's so bizarre and so funny. So I love it. But I've found this new habit of after we watch, I go on Reddit and I Read through the thread where they discuss the episode, and there are so many funny jokes, it kills me. That's where that thing I posted was from. And also theories. Like, there's this whole running theory about what Lumen does. I will not say it.

[Becca Freeman]

No. I've been keeping up in a different, lower effort way where New York magazine, Vulture has recaps every week, and they have an episode recap, and then they have a recap that's like, I don't know, the 10 biggest questions or the five biggest questions after the episode, and they dive into theories.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I have to. I'll have to add that to my roster because it's like having to wait every week for the episode. There's a new one today, actually. I'm so excited. But it's wild. It is a wild show.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, what about reading?

[Olivia Mentor]

I finished two books. I finished nothing.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I'm saying wow, because I've finished nothing. And I feel like this is not the first week this month that I've been like, here I am.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's okay. Not everybody week is a big reading week. I was here watching Lost.

[Becca Freeman]

I know. It's really. It's really eating into my reading time.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's fine. I read Nothing Serious by Emily J. Smith, which is one of the books that Josh Laura from Tell the Bees recommended. Emily reached out to me after and was like, oh, can I send you a copy? So I read it. It comes out in a few days, I think mid February. This is. This is like kind of a slow burn thriller about a woman who is in love with her best friend of many years, but he goes on a date and his date ends up dead. And so she. Yeah, and it's, as Josh mentioned, like, a lot of commentary on dating apps. It reminded me, actually, a lot of such about influence in the way that it's a mystery, but it's really more about, like commenting on. Instead of social media or influencing or child influencers, it's commenting on dating. And so it just is a lot of food for thought. It's also set in San Francisco, so I kept wanting to know if it was accurate because there's a lot of, like, very specific commentary on the city that I had never. I just. I'm not really familiar with San Francisco, so if you're looking for sort of like a social commentary slow burn mystery thriller, suggest checking it out. I also read Shred Sisters by Betsy Lerner. I saw her talk about this book at an event a couple weeks ago, and I've also seen it everywhere. Me Too. I think people really love this book. It's very short, it's beautifully written, and it's about two sisters, really. One of whom has, I believe she's bipolar. So it's just kind of the trajectory of their relationship over the course of their lives. It's almost like a mini hello, Beautiful. Like a very understated mini hello, Beautiful. It's really, really well done. I enjoyed it a lot, and I highly recommend it. That's what I read.

[Becca Freeman]

So I told you that I've. Well, I finished nothing. I've started a lot of things trying to screen for book club that are not it that I'm not going to tell you about. But since I don't have anything that I finished, I have a book question for you. Have you ever read a book that feels like the experience of watching Lost?

[Olivia Mentor]

Hmm. That is a great question.

[Becca Freeman]

We can put it to the Facebook group and the Geneva group, too. But I'm just wondering because I feel like it's so singular, and I feel like Severance does feel similar in some ways.

[Olivia Mentor]

Mm. You know, there's a book. I never saw any press about this book, but the Stuart Turton who wrote the Seven and a Half Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle, his second book, is set on an island. And it's very strange and, like, very weird things happen. And there is something about it that kind of does remind me of Lost and Severance.

[Becca Freeman]

Interesting. I'll be very curious to see if the listeners also have things. I mean, I'm obviously very booked right now with watching Lost, but after that, maybe I'm gonna get into, like, weird speculative, sci fi. Ish fiction. Spring.

[Olivia Mentor]

I mean, one of my favorite genres, as you know, the project that I started in the Spring and Then have Paused or Abandoned, is slightly inspired by Severance. So we'll see if I ever. Maybe I will produce something.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. Please, Olivia.

[Olivia Mentor]

We'll see.

[Becca Freeman]

Please tell us what we're reading for book club this month, though.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, this month we are reading Isola by Allegra Goodman. This is a story about a young woman in the 1500s who is forced to go on a journey with her guardian. She's an orphan at this point, so she's forced to kind of go to France, the New world, with her guardian and her lady in waiting. She's called her nurse throughout the book, and she falls in love along the way, and then she ends up marooned on an island and has to survive. And it is all based on a true story from the 1500s. So lots to unpack Looking forward to it.

[Becca Freeman]

We're going to be talking about that next week. In the meantime, if you would like more of us, you can follow us on Instagram atonpaperpodcast. You can join the Facebook group or the Geneva group to talk about your younger thoughts or recommend us books that are like lost or anything. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my substack is just Becca freeman.substack.com for my newsletter.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm on Instagram and substack in all the places at Olivia Mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

We will see you next week for book club.

[Olivia Mentor]

Bye.