Becca Freeman (3:48)

Oh.

Olivia Mentor (3:48)

Who wrote Wild Dark Shore. And I just said, like, you have a fan in me for a reader, in me for life. Like this inspired every aspect of my creativity, my life, my emotions. I doubt she'll ever see it, but she's a little busy, I think. But anyway, if you feel compelled to compliment someone about their work, do it, because I promise you it will make their day. So that's my high.

Becca Freeman (4:13)

I love that I made a birthday resolution for this year that I wanted to tell people directly when something they did inspired me or affected me. And I've done a really bad job of that. I think I did it once and then haven't done it since. So this is a really good reminder to pick that back up.

Olivia Mentor (4:36)

Yeah, it feels kind of awkward in a way. Cause you feel like. I don't think it does.

Becca Freeman (4:41)

Because it's always so lovely to be on the receiving end of it. That no matter how earnest or cheesy it feels, I think unless the person's a megalomaniac, it's always going to be well received.

Olivia Mentor (4:53)

Yes, yes, definitely. But I love that resolution. And yeah, we could all stand to be more complimentary of the things that we love. Cause it's so easy just to read something, love it, and then move on, you know?

Becca Freeman (5:05)

But, yeah, on a much smaller note, I have been so tickled by how much conversation and a bunch of people either DM'd me or said in the Geneva group how much our bird versus potato conversation, which was such a silly conversation that it turned around a bad day for them or made them laugh out loud in public when they were in a bad mood. And I, I was really touched by that.

Olivia Mentor (5:35)

Yeah, I, I enjoyed that too. But the real question is, are you convinced that Pedro is a falcon now?

Becca Freeman (5:41)

No, I'm not. I think that man is a textbook potato.

Olivia Mentor (5:46)

Wow. I, I, okay, we're just going to let that, we're going to let that sit. We're going to, we're going to let it sit. Not even with the edited image in the Facebook group. It hasn't convinced you.

Becca Freeman (5:56)

I mean, I guess you could put his head via AI on a falcon and like, sure, but no, he's a potato head. He is a Mr. Potato Head.

Olivia Mentor (6:07)

Okay, well, what's your high?

Becca Freeman (6:09)

My high is that I went out to dinner. My friend John organized this with three people, two of whom are friends from college. And then one of them is somebody who we graduated with who I didn't know at all in college. And all of us have ended up being writers in different ways. And so it was so fun to convene with people who have a connection to my past, one of whom I didn't know and two of whom I don't get to see as frequently as I would like. And to talk about writing and I don't know, just to have that point of connection. It was really, really lovely.

Olivia Mentor (6:45)

That sounds really wonderful.

Andy Bartz (6:48)

Yeah.

Becca Freeman (6:48)

We went to the weirdest restaurant that my friend John picked. He, at the end of dinner, he was like, well, I'm not allowed to pick where we go next time.

Olivia Mentor (6:56)

Was it bad? Like, weird how? I mean, was it, like, themed? Are we talking about, like, medieval Times? I don't, no.

Becca Freeman (7:03)

It was this restaurant in Greenwich Village that had a Cheesecake Factory sized menu of mostly different varieties of lasagna.

Olivia Mentor (7:13)

Oh, that is specific.

Becca Freeman (7:15)

Yeah, it was like a very strange place.

Andy Bartz (7:20)

Okay.

Olivia Mentor (7:21)

Yeah, I get it now. I get it now.

Becca Freeman (7:23)

Yeah. But, yeah, it was lovely.

Olivia Mentor (7:25)

What's your low?

Becca Freeman (7:26)

Well, I've brought two of my most boring topics to complain about. I have both the weather and my own procrastination on my book.

Olivia Mentor (7:36)

Listen, I'm glad you brought the weather because I was like, don't talk about the weather again, Olivia. Don't talk about the weather again, Olivia. Like, it's all I talk about in my life right now. It's all, it's all I think about. Yeah. So I'm with you.

Becca Freeman (7:49)

It is not nice out.

Olivia Mentor (7:50)

I'll listen.

Becca Freeman (7:51)

It's been in the 40s, it's been raining, it's been so windy here. It is not spring weather. And then I think my biggest gripe is with meteorology and weather forecasting. So the biggest con is that every day I feel like I open my weather app and there's some day on the horizon that's 68. And I'm like, we just gotta hold on. We just gotta hold on for that one beautiful day. And then I check the next day, and it's gone. And it's now 50 and raining.

Olivia Mentor (8:25)

Yeah, it was snowing here earlier this week. And I am. Mentally, I'm not doing well. Like, I. I need 50s. I need 50s so badly.

Becca Freeman (8:35)

There was one day this week where it was high 40s and sunny, and I went for a walk in the middle of the day, and I felt exceptional. I felt great.

Olivia Mentor (8:47)

Yeah.

Becca Freeman (8:48)

But I feel like I've been trapped in my house. And then I've. I've had a lot of evening plans this week and just getting dressed to go out when it's, you know, the lows are in the 30s, and I'm like, this is not fair.

Olivia Mentor (9:00)

Yeah. It's not pleasant. I just want to be in hoodies basically all the time. Right now. It's lingering. Winter is lingering. But what can you do?

Becca Freeman (9:12)

Send a letter to the editor.

Olivia Mentor (9:15)

What other low do you have?

Becca Freeman (9:17)

Oh, my book. Procrastination. It has been more challenging than I anticipated to get myself back into writing my book. So I left off. I'm probably, like, 40% into this draft before I went to Paris. And I am, in hindsight, looking back and being like, that's a really cruel place to stop. Like, kind of in the messy, murky middle of it. And it has been really challenging to get myself to come back to it this week.

Olivia Mentor (9:50)

The weather doesn't help?

Becca Freeman (9:52)

No.

Olivia Mentor (9:52)

You'd think that you'd be like, I'm just going to be inside. But no, it is actually, I find harder to focus. Although, as I stare out the window right now, I just saw a sliver of blue sky, and I literally felt, like, a jolt of, like, passion for being alive just now. So that's a good example. Like, I just feel like when it's a little sunny, you can just kind of push yourself that much further. But I'm sorry, that's. That's a frustrating spot. And 40% is a hard point, too, in a moment. It is. It is. My agent always calls it, like, sticky. Like, it feels sticky. And that's. 40% is usually a sticky point for me.

Becca Freeman (10:31)

Yeah. Well, I want to get into these conversations, but first Maybe we can frame it up a little of why we wanted to do this. I know you said at the top of the episode you love hearing conversations about failure and rejection, which I do, too, but it feels very kind of cruel for us to just be, like, inviting people on the podcast and being like, please share your trauma with us. So I'm curious why this was of interest. I'm curious if there's a recent failure of yours that's top of mind that made this particularly timely of wanting to do this episode. Tell me more.

Olivia Mentor (11:05)

I think I really wanted to have an episode based on this topic, because when I read, for example, Andy, who we will have on this episode, talking about her own rejection in the form of publishing, she has written a lot about the highs and lows of her experience publishing books like rejections. And every time I read one of her anecdotes about this or I read from someone else about their own, you know, low points in their career, their creativity, I always think, like, tell me more. Like, I want to get into, like, the nitty gritty emotional experience of it. Because when you're in your own rejections, and I guess per your question, like, when I sold this last book, usually when you sell a book, no matter how positive the outcome, usually the rejections come first. So before you have that first bit of interest, you have, I had a slew of rejections. And when you've been working on something for so long with, in my case, just me and my agent, and then you just read, you know, a dozen people just tell you why it's wrong, all the different ways it's wrong, conflicting reasons why it's wrong. And often, in my case, this was in the span of a week. This is every single day. And you told me not to read the details of why people said no, but I made that choice, I think, because, I don't know, it just feels like this is going to prove to myself whether I'm good at this or not, which is the total wrong way to go about it. But when you've had something in a vacuum for so long, you just long for validation.

Becca Freeman (12:42)

Yeah, you want any feedback?

Olivia Mentor (12:44)

Yeah, you want any feedback? And, you know, there is a point, I think, probably for most people who read their rejections on submission, where you think like, oh, my God, like, what if they're all nos? Like, what if every single person is a no? And that's a really low point. And anyway, it worked out for me, like, I found the perfect editor. I'm. I'm so grateful. But in the lows in all those rejections, one after another, like, it feels like garbage. You know, it feels like, oh, I fooled myself. Like, I have fooled myself. And it's like, shameful. It's really shameful. But ultimately, like, I think it just has made me more clear on like, why I want to do this despite all the rejections, big and small. I don't know. That's a long winded answer, I think.

Becca Freeman (13:34)

And also, in some ways, it's easier to objectively analyze other people's failures because I think the instinct is when it's you, to say, well, I'm just bad, I'm an idiot. I'm so wrong versus, you know, I think you, at least I do. I look on other people with so much more grace than when you hear these stories. We prerecorded the interview, so we already have done them. You're like, of course Andy's not like a bad writer. Loser. Of course that's not the takeaway.

Olivia Mentor (14:07)

Yeah. And it's so funny with us because we know more than probably most people what it's like to put a creative project in the world. We know the highs and lows. We know the market is unpredictable. We know every editor has their own thing going on. And yet you forget it a lot when it comes, or at least I forgot it pretty quickly.

Becca Freeman (14:27)

And I think there's a lot of lying happening. Like, I think there is a lot of untruth with regards to a lot of these stories. Not maliciously, but, you know, especially if you have a platform, you don't want to shit talk people. You don't want to like, complain about how people have wronged you. And nobody likes a sore winner. You know, like, if Emily Henry was like, let me tell you about all of these rejections, I feel like you would just, you would kind of eye roll it. So, you know, I do think there is some hiding of the less nice parts of any experience. We talk about this with Zoe too. About how founders are so toxically positive and don't really like to share about business failures.

Olivia Mentor (15:07)

Yeah, and I think there's also this sense of. I was actually just listening to one of our old episodes when I had this like long 5 hour drive a couple weekends ago and you were talking about your book that you're working on and how it's weird to share, like, oh, this is really tough right now because it's like a chef coming out mid meal. Like, it was kind of touch and go there for a while. And that is sort of, I think also what Sharing any sort of rejection or failure feels like because there's this fear of, well, are you gonna read this book? Are you gonna view my next business? Or whatever through this lens of, like, oh, yeah, but you don't. From the outside. You know, like, again, like you were saying, I never look at anyone's book who I know has been rejected and think, like, wow, like, they really got lucky there. Like, I always think, like, oh, they found the right editor. And, like, that's how it was supposed to work out.

Becca Freeman (16:03)

I actually think that I appreciate it more. Like, for instance, I know Carly Fortune has talked pretty openly about how difficult her second book was. And if you read the acknowledgments, I don't know if it's the acknowledgments or there's an author's note at the end, but there's. There's something about how much she struggled with it. And I think knowing that really deepened my read. And likewise, the book I talked about last week that I read, Jane and Dan at the End of the World, the author also has something in the acknowledgments about how difficult this book was for her. And as a person who reads the acknowledgments first or reads them midstream, I always find that I appreciate a book more knowing the struggle that went into it.

Olivia Mentor (16:41)

100%. I do as well. It's so comforting. And even though I've never started a business, as we talked to Zoe, I found myself so inspired by the idea. At 26, she started this business, and she went into it and then came out of it, and she's launched the substack because of it, and it's taught her so much. It just was such a good example of everything we gain when we go through these low points.

Becca Freeman (17:10)

You know what it is reminding me of, which I think Zoe would absolutely approve of. As one of Ina Garten's biggest fangirls. I feel like in Ina Garten's memoir, she said so many times that Jeffrey's advice was, you don't know your good breaks from your bad ones, where when something happens, you don't know where it's leading.

Olivia Mentor (17:29)

Yeah, it's true. You don't. In the moment, it just feels like an indictment of, like, you are. But, like, afterwards, you can really see that. Like, okay, yes, I learned. Maybe, like, I don't know if I believe in, like, it happened for a reason. I think it's kind of a trite phrase, but, I mean, you do learn so much from rejection I believe it wholeheartedly and even, like, the experience of bad reviews or, like, whatever. Like, there was a point where I was like, I cannot handle it. Like, it will break me. And I don't seek out reviews, but I still get tagged them. I still, like, know my Goodreads rating. And, like, it's, you know, it's not like sky high and I'm fine. Like, I'm okay with it. It's okay. Like, I'm proud of what I've done. I will hopefully write other books. Maybe they'll be better, maybe they'll be worse, but I'm still gonna write. And, like, I feel a much clearer sense of self having experienced the rejection and knowing, like, I will go forward anyway for sure.

Becca Freeman (18:29)

Well, let's take a quick ad break and let's get to these conversations.

Olivia Mentor (18:38)

This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. After more than two years of home renovations, I can confidently say that our house finally feels like home. And there is something so rewarding about making progress on different projects month by month, year by year. I walk into rooms now and I instantly remember all the various iterations. The wallpaper we've painstakingly peeled the wall with, like, fabric detergent that we use to soften the glue, like all of the little things. And it honestly makes even the still in progress spaces feel kind of special. So this year, Jake and I are really focused on finding the finishing touches for certain rooms that are really close to being done, from furniture to hardware and more. And the good news is that Wayfair has everything. So for every item that we are looking for, that you are looking for, Wayfair has thousands and thousands of options at virtually every price point.

Becca Freeman (19:36)

So a little story. Two years ago, I went down to D.C. for a few days to help a friend decorate his apartment. And we drove all over the place, all the home stores you might expect. You want to know where we ended up buying almost everything? Wayfair Online, at home, at night, with a glass of wine. Because when it comes to ultra specific measurements or if you have a specific vision in your head, there is nowhere better. You need like a really thin entryway table like we were looking for. Done. Or more recently, I wanted to add a mirror to my already decorated living room. And I had a size, I had a style, I had a price in mind. I popped it all into Wayfair and boom, perfect mirror in like two minutes. The price was great. I think it was about $100. It was even on sale. And I loved that there was fast.

Olivia Mentor (20:26)

And free shipping no matter what you are shopping for, Wayfair's vast selection means you can find exactly the right thing. From bathroom vanities to kitchen floor and wall tiles to outdoor lighting and storage. Plus top brands like GE and Moen. You can find it all on Wayfair. Shop the best selection of home improvement online. Get renovating with wayfair. Head to wayfair.com right now. That's W A Y-F-A I R.com wayfair every style, every home. We are so excited to have friend of the pod Andy Bartz with us today. Andy is the New York Times bestselling author of the Spare Room, We Were Never Here, the Herd and the Lost Night. And her latest novel, the Last Fairy out, comes out on May 20th. So you can pre order that now. And we are just so excited to talk with you because I was just telling Becca this. I feel like you are very open on substack about the highs and lows of publishing, of which there are many. And I'm just excited to hear about a time where you felt like this is it and you kept going.

Andy Bartz (21:40)

Yeah, yeah, thanks for having me on. I have definitely found with my substack, which is sort of meant for writers in all stages of their journey, that when I get really vulnerable about when things are hard or bad or like, not the shiny surface that we try to put on Instagram, that everyone really responds to it. And I think we're all kind of struggling at different points. So try to be honest about that. So, yeah, I'm excited to talk about rejection in all of its forms.

Becca Freeman (22:08)

So what have you brought for us for Sad Time? Show and Tell.

Andy Bartz (22:14)

So my mind immediately went to. Well, first I was like, which of the 80,000 examples do I want to choose from? Because to live a creative life is to be rejected almost constantly. But I thought back to when my agent went on submission with my very first manuscript. So this was 20, late 2016, early 2017. And I had, you know, worked on this novel for multiple years at that point. I had this manuscript that had gotten me multiple offers of representation from different agents. My agent kind of, you know, buttered me up the way that they do when they're trying to convince you to sign with them. Of like, she really felt like this was going to be big and she could get a big deal out of it. And I was just like on cloud nine the day that she went out on submission. And then a week passed, and then another week passed, and then another week passed and I checked in and her assistant Let me know that they hadn't heard back from everyone. But so far, everything they had gotten was a no. And I, being an idiot, was like, well, can I see what they said in their, you know, emails turning it down? And she was like, sure. And sent me a document that was just, like, 15 pages of, like, reasons that my book was not publishable.

Olivia Mentor (23:32)

I'm familiar with this.

Andy Bartz (23:33)

Familiar. I have since learned, don't do that.

Olivia Mentor (23:36)

Why?

Andy Bartz (23:37)

Why would you do that to yourself? Especially because it was extremely unhelpful. I mean, everyone who has put themselves out there trying to get an agent or an editor knows how, like, one person will be like the character. There was, you know, too much character and not enough plot. And then the next person's like, there was way too much plot and not enough character. And I called my agent and she was like, yeah, I'm really surprised. I really, you know, I really didn't think this was going to happen. And I was like, well, if everyone in this round says no, like, we're going to move on to the next round, right? And she was like, no, I'll want to have a discussion about whether that means it's time to put this manuscript aside and start a new one. Because for your debut, I'm not sure it would really serve you to come out with, like, a small press. You know, you only get to debut once. And I just remember hearing that and, like, my gut sank so dramatically. It was sort of the first time I had considered, like, oh, this really. This really might all be. Not for nothing, but, you know, a ton of work that never came to be. So she had heard back from. It was like 19 out of 20. And one of those 19 had said something to the effect of, like, I'm going to pass. I'd be, you know, happy to take a look if you guys kind of go back to the drawing board. And she does a lot of work, but. And passing. And then, like, the last person, the last holdout, told her, I like this. I can't run it up the flagpole and, you know, get a book contract on offer the way it is now. But if she's willing to do a revise and resubmit, I'll look at it again. And I did some research, and it was not very optimistic because revise and resubmit requests are fairly common, but having a revise and resubmit that actually results in. In the offer of a book contract is pretty rare. So once again, I was just like, I've already spent so many years on this am I about to invest even more time on sort of a losing. You know, a losing game. But I had a call with her, which was kind of terrible because she wasn't my editor yet. So, like, it wasn't her job to tell me how to fix anything. It was just her job to tell me everything that was wrong with it. And to go from, like, such confidence in this book to like, oh, no, you're right, it's terrible, was pretty dramatic. And then the other editor who had passed, but who had said in her rejection, which I guess I could only see because I had read that long, horrible document, had said, like, I would look again. My agent went back to her and was like, you know, Andy's willing to do some work. Do you want to speak with her? And she said, sure. And then I remember I asked my agent before these two phone calls, like, well, what am I going to do if their feedback isn't overlapping or if they contradict each other? And she goes, I don't know what to tell you because I've never had this happen before. And I was like, that's not a good sign. I don't want to be the first of any sort of circumstance, really. I want to be on, you know, well, trod ground. But I spoke with her as well, and luckily they both had pretty overlapping notes, which, I mean, if anything, just bolstered the belief that they were right. And then I went into a hole and I spent like four months just ripping it down to the bones. I know you guys are, like, familiar with this process, but ripping it apart and rebuilding it and changing so much, rethinking so much, not being precious about any of it. And then I guess it was about six months later. Cause it was from the winter, and in the summer, my agent liked the revision and sent it back to both of them. And the one who had always been more interested made an offer pretty quickly. So it had a happy ending. But I still think back to all those people who were pretty dramatically like, no, this book can't work. And actually some of them too were like, I don't know that she should be writing thrillers. Like, maybe she should be more in literary fiction. Or maybe she should be doing like a friend group story that's not suspense. And I was like, maybe I just can't do this genre in general. And look at me now.

Olivia Mentor (27:34)

Yeah, look at you now.

Becca Freeman (27:35)

Which book did this become? If people want to now go read the product of that.

Andy Bartz (27:42)

This became my debut, which is the Lost Knight. It's like a hipster mystery set in 2009 in Brooklyn.

Olivia Mentor (27:49)

So I am very familiar as someone who chose to look at all of my rejections in a spreadsheet on submission.

Becca Freeman (27:56)

I don't know why either of you did that.

Olivia Mentor (27:58)

I will never do it again. It's. It was the most emotionally traumatic thing I think I've ever done.

Andy Bartz (28:04)

It's a mistake you make one time. Exactly once.

Becca Freeman (28:07)

Not to be the I told you so guy, but I told you 8 million times as you were doing it, Olivia, I was like, don't do that. No good can come of this.

Olivia Mentor (28:14)

But, like, the impulse is so much that, like, as you were saying, Andy, like, there is so much conflicting information that by the end of it, you're kind of like, well, I guess everything is wrong, like, on every level. And even the things that someone says are okay. You have someone else or three someones who said they're wrong. So then it's tough to even believe the people that do love it in the end. So I'm just wondering, like, how did you push through that? Like, how did you have all of those different rejections and criticisms in your head and still, you know, go back to sort of the first page and start again? Like, what was the thing that kept you going?

Andy Bartz (28:53)

I think I'm someone who, once I've invested, I'm. I'm really susceptible to the sunk cost fallacy, I think. And I felt like I have come this far. I've worked so hard. Like, there's just no possibility that I'm going to abandon the manuscript now and not try. So I was aware it might not become anything. I mean, even when I started the manuscript, years before I did national novel writing month, NaNoWriMo, and I wrote 50,000 words in a month. And then it was this trick because I was like, well, now I have to finish the book because I've already invested 50,000 words thinking I was on step, like, you know, 8 of 10. And it turned out I was on, like, 8 of 3,000. I had no idea then that, like, that was, like, hardly anything from the first draft and certainly nothing from, like, the first NaNoWriMo drafting month was going to end up in it. But it's sort of this mental trick of, like, well, now I'm invested. Now I can't just abandon it. So I think when it came time to, like, go into a hole, I gave myself some time, didn't feel like there was any urgency. I sort of, you know, went through the morning process of, like, things are not going to go the way I thought. Things are not going to go to auction. The manuscript is not really, really close to being ready to publish. And felt that and moped around. And I think the time, and this is kind of true, anytime you're trying to work on a revision, the time, like, allowed me to see it with some fresh eyes and also talking to other people that I trusted about it and like, kind of reiterating the stuff that I knew was wrong. The feedback I'd gotten from these editors, with people, some of whom were beta readers and had read copies of it, read earlier versions, but also with people who didn't know that much about it, was really helpful because we could kind of see it in different ways. We could kind of turn it over and like, okay, if they're saying that this side character isn't working, what could that actually mean? What could I do to either make them bigger or get rid of them altogether? So I think feeling like the entire sort of world collapsed around me when it came to this book meant like, well, what the hell? Now I might as well just strip it down to its foundation and see what would be interesting and what might fit together. And that was definitely the stage when some really exciting kind of snapping into place moments happened. And it was like I had set myself up for these sort of serendipitous things to work out in the story. I know you guys know that feeling too, of like, oh, my God, I've been preparing for this the whole time. And I didn't realize I had laid all the groundwork. That was when it really happened. And I think it was because it was like, what the hell? Like, what do I have to lose? I might as well just have fun with it and think big and, like, not be beholden to anything that's already in here.

Becca Freeman (31:31)

I know you said that you are a big adherent to the sunk cost fallacy, but did it affect your sense of self at all to hear this thing that I thought was whole, this thing that I thought was a book, is in fact not a book yet, or because you were a novice, was there a layer of that's okay.

Andy Bartz (31:51)

It was definitely, yeah, identity shaking. And it's funny because I was thinking back to that time and it was also when it was like everything was going wrong. I was supposed to move into a new apartment and it flooded the day before. So I was like, homeless and staying at a friend's guest room and the like, long distance situationship that I had been in was ending. And I was like, crazy about this guy and he, like, clearly was not into it as much. And I think I was like, everything, everything sucks anyway. And so it's hard for me to even be clear about how much was me feeling like shaken as a, as a writer and as an author versus how much was just like, everything is falling apart and just like, who knows where all the pieces are going to fall? Which I don't know. I don't know if you guys relate to this, but sometimes it's kind of freeing in a way where you're just like, I'm just going to stew and how everything is bad and not even have to pretend otherwise. So I sat in that. But I think because I hadn't been an author yet, to actually answer your question, I didn't have this self image as an author and I was like working as a freelance writer and doing that full time and that was still working out. So, you know, I really wanted this book thing to happen, but I didn't have a self identity as an author yet. And I think it was more a feeling of like, well, I'm gonna give it my all. And if that doesn't work, then I guess I'm not an author. I'm not author material.

Olivia Mentor (33:17)

Do you think that this experience ultimately helped you for the sort of more small scale daily rejection that is being an author, like reviews and, you know, all the many ways that people are like, oh, it wasn't for me. Whenever you write a book that happens, no matter how successful you are, is, you've been very successful, you've had a celebrity book club pick, you've been a New York Times bestseller. Do you think that that experience is always sort of in the back of your mind? It kind of like strengthened you a little bit?

Andy Bartz (33:46)

I think so. That's a great question. And I think the takeaway from it was that it was worth it to keep betting on myself and to keep doing the work. And I was just telling somebody last night, like, I was in this, I ended up in this group of authors. It was like debut 19. All these people who had their first book coming out in 2019, who were traditionally published and made some friends within that. And it's crazy that that was six years ago, but we all had our books come out in 2019. We were very lucky to have it happen before the pandemic. And then since then, you know, some did well and some didn't do as well. And some people have had three or four books come out since then and others had one come out and it didn't do as well as they hoped. And they have just been struggling to even start another one since then. And I think my attitude has been like, I'm just going to keep working until someone tells me to stop, right? So with this manuscript that nobody wanted, I was like, I'm going to keep working on it and see if this editor will change her mind and decide to publish it. And when my second book came out, the herd, in March 2020, and like, absolutely nobody read it because bookstores literally closed that week and everyone's orders got canceled, I could have seen that as a forever setback too. But it was like, well, all I can do is just keep on writing books until someone literally lifts the keyboard away from my desk and takes it and I'm typing in the air. So, yeah, it sort of instilled this idea that the only way to get through rejection is to keep writing is like, to keep doing the thing. And yeah, when I get those negative reviews or even, I mean, I'm susceptible to it like anyone else, and I'm like tagged in a random person's mean review of one of my books, it really hurts. But I can bring to it this mentality of, like, okay, well, I just, I have a new project and, like, that's what I'm going to put my effort into and I'm going to just move on. And I can't change the fact that 19 editors didn't want the Lost Knight and that, you know, reader in wherever, RI 3914 hated my last book. All I can do is just keep writing the next one.

Becca Freeman (35:59)

It feels so obvious with hindsight that of course, this was what had to happen in order for you to be on book five coming out soon. It's book five, right?

Andy Bartz (36:09)

Book five. Yeah.

Becca Freeman (36:10)

Okay. But when you're in it, it feels so different. Like if you were talking to another author who was going through the exact same situation, now what advice would you give them or how would you suggest they handle it?

Andy Bartz (36:24)

I love that question. I mean, I think the big takeaway would be that the biggest difference between those who succeed in this industry and those who don't is who keeps honing their craft and who keeps trying, who keeps dusting themselves off and, you know, getting back to the work of writing and trying to be like the best possible author they can be. And there's plenty of people for whom, like, this is not. That's not the gig. That's not what they want to do. I mean, it's, it's the same thing when I was a full time freelance writer and other you know, editors I knew were like, I think I would love that. And then they try it and they're like, oh, no, no. I like my paycheck every other week. Like, this is not for me. And the writing life is not for everyone. So, yeah, I think my advice would be, like, you have to find some intrinsic joy and reward in the act of writing, which doesn't mean that you love it all the time. In fact, I hate it most of the time. But there has to be something satisfying about the work of writing your manuscripts, and you can hope for these external things. And of course, there are gatekeepers. And of course, you're going to have to deal with finding the gatekeepers that are going to help you reach the path that you know you want to reach and the professional goals that you want to reach. But the decision is like, give up or keep writing. And there's kind of no in between. You can't give up and continue doing it. You can't, like, let the. Let the criticism or the rejection get to you and let that stop you. If you want to have any sort of success in this industry, success by whatever measure you. You want to use, you know, oh.

Becca Freeman (37:59)

That was so powerful to phrase it that way.

Olivia Mentor (38:02)

You can't have one.

Andy Bartz (38:02)

So I'm reminding myself, as I say.

Olivia Mentor (38:04)

All of it, you kind of have to. You kind of have to tell yourself again and again. I feel like in publishing and writing, creative life in general, it's really easy to look for signs of, like, I'm okay. I'm doing this. I'm good. But it's actually much easier to find the opposite, too. And so if you have enough of those, it's like, oh, well, I didn't get this thing, this other author got. So I guess, you know, that's it for me. I guess that means the book's not going to sell. And, like, there's always going to be that no matter what, of the good stuff you achieve. And so the only option is to just work through it. You're totally right.

Becca Freeman (38:40)

Also, the bad stuff seems louder. Like, you can have 2100 a thousand Goodreads reviews that are like, this is so good. And the one person you're. I can't remember the screen name you gave them who says, like, this person sucks. Like, this book is terrible. Of course, my instinct is to give that more credence than the a hundred people who said something lovely.

Andy Bartz (39:02)

No, of course. And I think my book We Were Never Here was still on the New York Times bestseller list when I was tagged in just the meanest review I've ever been tagged in. And I can quote parts of it to you, which it's insane that I remember that of course, called the writing painful, which I was like, nobody made you read this, babe. But it's true. Like your brain just latches onto that stuff and it's just like, can you quiet that? You know, self doubt and quiet the part of you that thinks it's true and just sort of, you know, blindly force yourself to soldier on and like, dust yourself off and keep going.

Becca Freeman (39:39)

Where have you netted out coming into book five? Are you reading reviews? Are you like, I'm not seeking it out, but if somebody tags me, I'll read it. Are you like, not even reading tags? Like, where are you with that?

Andy Bartz (39:52)

I am reading tags. I feel like as authors we don't have a responsibility, but we do have an opportunity to connect with readers by sort of being available to them on social media, which I have a lot of mixed feelings about, of course. But if somebody tags me in a review, I look at it and like, assuming most of the time, if they have tagged me, it's, you know, at least mostly positive. And then I'll try to respond and thank them for reading it because, you know, it's always incredible and mind blowing when someone takes their limited time to read something that you have written. So I'm reading anything, I'm tagged in, I'm reading professional reviews, which so far there's only been one, but it's still as frightening as ever, just waiting for the others. And I'm not seeking it out. I can't go on Goodreads. I had my girlfriend, like, look at Goodreads for me to try to summarize, you know, give me some feedback and like, generally what's like reading the tea leaves, like, what's the vibe? And she's a data scientist, not like a creative person. And so. And she's very detached from it. So I think she just like thought it was interesting how people had these different things and was like reading sections that I was like, no, you didn't understand the assignment, babe.

Olivia Mentor (41:00)

I don't know.

Andy Bartz (41:01)

I don't want to know that they said that. That's not what I wanted you to tell me. The one that we keep laughing about, though, is that. So the one of the two narrators for the Last Fairy out is a data scientist, which plays into her, you know, her personality and the way she's like approaching sort of this amateur detective work she's doing. But somebody's Review said it's totally unrealistic that this person is a data scientist. What sort of data scientist sees a shade of pink and says it's the color of a blushing ear? And we keep laughing like, do you think that data scientists, like, can't use figurative language? Like, do you think that in their brains they are just like, zeros and ones?

Olivia Mentor (41:39)

They're robots. That's it.

Andy Bartz (41:41)

That's it. They have never had a lyrical thought in their life. Impossible that somebody like that could notice details and think about them in a descriptive way. So we keep joking about that how she. She's a data scientist, so she just thinks zeros and ones can't form a real sentence.

Olivia Mentor (41:57)

I'm really curious. So is your editor now that editor who initially believed in the first book? Have you been with them for every book?

Andy Bartz (42:06)

I've been with the same editor, yeah. The whole time and the same agent. I'm that rare person with the whole same team for five books.

Olivia Mentor (42:13)

That's pretty great.

Andy Bartz (42:15)

Yeah. Yeah, it worked out. I got really lucky, considering I didn't choose her. She chose me.

Olivia Mentor (42:20)

Well, I guess you already touched on this, but is there anything else that you would suggest? Just anyone going through a moment of. I mean, I don't know about you, but that moment where I have, like, read all of my rejections in one go was probably, like, one of the lowest emotional points of my life because it feels so deeply overwhelming. So what would you say to someone in that spot? Like, you're at the lowest of the low. Like, how do you wake up tomorrow morning, put one foot in front of the other and live a creative life and pursue what you love?

Andy Bartz (42:51)

Absolutely, yeah. When you're just, like, laying on the floor, like, starfishing and thinking your life is over.

Olivia Mentor (42:57)

So painful.

Andy Bartz (42:59)

So a couple things. Something, this is just a little trick, but something I do, and a particular review or something has really stung me is I go and read the one star reviews of books that I think are absolutely brilliant.

Becca Freeman (43:11)

Love that.

Olivia Mentor (43:12)

Love this so much.

Becca Freeman (43:14)

I used to follow this Instagram account that was like the meanest negative reviews of generally popular things. And it really did teach me that truly people can find a bone to pick with anything.

Andy Bartz (43:27)

There's a hater for truly everything. So, like, think of the book that just you thought was brilliant in every way. I'll do it, you know, or whether it was a big popular thing or even just something that, you know, you read this book and not that many people did, but to you, it was hit, you know, stuck the landing. Hit every Single mark and read the negative reviews, and you just remember, like, there's people that are going to sit and hate on absolutely everything. And I find that really soothing. Like, okay, if they think that this person is dumb and doesn't know how to write a book, then, like, they're gonna complain about everyone.

Becca Freeman (43:58)

Can I jump in with a side? Nobody asked me this question, but I have a tweak on framing that. That helped me so much.

Andy Bartz (44:05)

Yes.

Becca Freeman (44:06)

So I feel like Emily Henry is a North Star for me. She's both a favorite writer in terms of my own enjoyment of writing, and she's also just incredibly popular. And so if you go onto her Goodreads and you know that chart breakout where it's like the number of five star, four star, three star, two star, one star. So, you know, by and large, her books have great reviews. Like, I'm looking at book lovers. It has a 4.11. But then if you look at the number of 2 star and 1 star reviews, there's 12,721 1 star reviews. And it's like, can you imagine if Emily Henry got upset 12,721 times over? These people who. It's less than 1% of people didn't like her book, you would be like, and maybe she has. But you would just be like, ma'am, you're not seeing the forest through the trees. And I think just looking at the sheer quantity of people, that it's not the ones and twos of somebody who can totally dislike something you love. I feel like that really put things into perspective.

Andy Bartz (45:11)

That's like 12,000 plus people who, yeah, sat and, like, read the book, presumably, and then sat down and, like, gave it this rating. And that's just for one book by one author. That's stunning.

Olivia Mentor (45:24)

Yeah.

Andy Bartz (45:25)

Oh, I was also gonna say, I think the two other things, and these are, I guess, good advice anytime you're not feeling super creative, but, you know, touch grass, get outside, get out in nature, get away from your computer. I read some study about how not bringing your phone when you go on a walk, like, increases the rejuvenating power and the mood boosting power by a hu. Huge percent. And I was like, but I can't do that. I live in New York City. Like, what if I get whatever mugged, but it's like, if I get mugged up, they're gonna take my phone anyway. So I started leaving the house without my phone. And I have to tell you, like, it's fine. I promise. If you're just going for A walk. You can leave it in the house.

Olivia Mentor (46:02)

You've lived to tell the tale.

Andy Bartz (46:03)

I have lived to tell the tale. If you drive to a park, you can leave it in the car. Like, it is truly going to be fine if you make obviously good, smart safety decisions. Get away from your phone and screens and go for a walk. And then also, you know, this kind of came up earlier, but just keep working on the next thing. Like, even if you can just take. Set a timer for 20 minutes and force yourself to do a little bit of creative writing and add 200 words to your work in progress, there's just something about it that's so soothing to your nervous system and that just sort of like reminds your brain that you have many stories within you. And like, regardless, even if everyone ends up hating this, this book that you know you got a bad review on, like, there are many more stories inside you. And I just find that really, really soothing to go back to. Even though it's the last thing I want to do in those moments.

Olivia Mentor (46:50)

I love that it feels like when you're really in something and you've been in it for a very long time, it's like the defining pinnacle of your success or failure. It's like, this says everything about who I am. This says everything about my talent. But I think that, you know, I think creativity is much more complicated than that and art is as well. So I love those tips.

Andy Bartz (47:10)

Yeah, like, there's this phrase in publishing that's like, you're only as good as your last book. And it's, it's supposed to mean something about, like, your, you know, your sales track record is going to determine everything about your future. And like, I think it's bullshit. I think you're only as good as your next book. And like, if you have a killer idea that you're going to write next, then like, okay, if you need to use a pen name, you'll use a pen name, but you can go out there and write it. And if it's good, people will get excited about it. So, like, the past does not determine the future. The present, what you're doing right now determines the future. So I just think it's so premature and like, self defeating to think it's over because something didn't go the way you wanted it to because you got this kind of rejection. Like, yeah, stop rejecting yourself. Like, from that point forward, you can just keep, keep doing your thing. Prove them all wrong.

Becca Freeman (47:56)

Andy, I so appreciate you sharing so vulnerably with us to turn this onto the Flip side to a positive note, we already know there's a data scientist, but can you give us the pitch for your forthcoming book which comes out in May?

Andy Bartz (48:12)

Absolutely. I'm glad you asked, but I really actually need to. Need to figure out my pitch before it comes out soon. So the Last Fairy out is about a data scientist, a grieving woman who travels to the tropical island where her fiance had died in an accident on a sort of solo trip there a few months earlier. And she goes hoping to find closure. And while she's there, she's speaking with these people who live on this island and these expats who all got to know her fiance, Esther. But then one of them kind of unexpectedly tells her that he knows the truth about Esther's final days. But before he can share that truth with her, he disappears from the island. And that's when she starts to suspect that maybe everything did not go down.

Olivia Mentor (48:58)

The way that she thought.

Andy Bartz (48:59)

With the end of her partner's life, she's determined to figure it out. And she becomes increasingly convinced that this might have actually been a murder and that the murderer might still be on the island with her. So it's got, yeah, it's got a creepy remains, it's got these, you know, tight lipped locals and these enigmatic expats and this, this big, you know, jungle preserve. And it was really, really fun to write. It's kind of a puzzle box mystery. And I hope it's fun for readers to uncover too.

Becca Freeman (49:31)

And remind us the specific pub date. It's May.

Andy Bartz (49:34)

It's May 20th and it's called the Last Fairy out because it's set on an island and if you don't catch a fairy, you're very.

Becca Freeman (49:48)

We are so excited to have Azora Zoe Paknod here who writes the first Rodeo newsletter. And you may also remember her from the episode we did with her back in, I believe it was 2020 about starting her eco friendly e commerce marketplace, Goldune.

Zoe Paknaud (50:04)

Crazy. That. That was five years ago.

Becca Freeman (50:06)

Crazy.

Olivia Mentor (50:07)

Yeah, that was before me. So I'm glad to. I'm a subscriber of your newsletter, but I'm glad to meet you in real life today.

Zoe Paknaud (50:14)

Me too. I'm glad to see like a tiny, tiny centimeter of your like home improvement project behind you because I've been listening to you talk about it. I'm so nosy. I want to see it all.

Olivia Mentor (50:26)

I'm using my body to strategically block most of the spin bike that is not very aesthetically pleasing.

Zoe Paknaud (50:33)

I would never have known that there was one behind you. You're doing an amazing job.

Olivia Mentor (50:37)

Smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors.

Becca Freeman (50:40)

So, Zoe, it's very full circle that you're here, because you came here at the beginning of Guldoon, and now Guldoon has passed RIP and this sounds awful, because I'm about to do it again, that I'm, like, one of the first people I thought of for this episode about rejection and failure. But it's just because I think your whole newsletter is about owning that and talking about the experience and things you wish you knew.

Zoe Paknaud (51:09)

No, 100%. I was. I was not offended when you texted me. We were putting together an episode. I have the text up. We're putting together an episode on failure.

Olivia Mentor (51:18)

And I was wondering if you'd want.

Zoe Paknaud (51:19)

To come on Iconic text receipt. But I think you're right. I literally write a newsletter about failure, so that's not personal to me at all. Or I mean, it is personal, but, like, it's not negative. I guess what I should say. Not pejorative.

Olivia Mentor (51:33)

Failure.

Becca Freeman (51:34)

I apologize the second we got on this zoom, because I took for granted that Zoe and I have an ongoing text, because she is. We were on a pickleball team together.

Zoe Paknaud (51:46)

I mean, I was a pickle bitch. We're friends. Yeah, we're all friends.

Becca Freeman (51:49)

Pickle bitches.

Olivia Mentor (51:50)

Yeah.

Becca Freeman (51:51)

So I kind of just started stream of conscious. Like, I kind of just was like, oh. Huh.

Zoe Paknaud (51:54)

There's very little you could text me.

Olivia Mentor (51:56)

That would put me off. You know what I mean? I think with both you and our other guest, the reasons that you came to mind are not that we think of you as failures, but we think of you as someone who has been open about the experience of not everything being perfect, for sure, and still being a successful, creative, interesting human with lots of other successes. And I think that put.

Becca Freeman (52:18)

Olivia, thank you for saving me from myself.

Olivia Mentor (52:22)

That's ultimately. That's ultimately a skill, I think, and something to be really proud of. So thank you, Olivia. It's a compliment. It's a compliment.

Zoe Paknaud (52:31)

I take it as a compliment because I think. Well, first of all, something you just said there is, like, the. I don't know the keynote for me. And it's like, being open about it because everyone has flopped, whether they're, like, comfortable acknowledging they're in their flop era or not. Like, everyone has flopped. But I think for me, there are a few people who were super. Open is the wrong word. But maybe just even, like, candidates about the hard parts or the ugly parts or, like, the regrets they had. And that made it very possible for Me to, like, figure out how to navigate that myself. But I feel like everyone goes through it.

Becca Freeman (53:07)

For the people who were open with you about it, was that people who were open with you privately or people who were talking about it openly in a public forum? Because I think those two things are very different and a different scale of vulnerability.

Zoe Paknaud (53:20)

Okay. Very real. It was actually people who were open with me privately. Well, okay, so, like, context, we're talking about when I. I started a business in 2020, and at the end of 2022, I, like, was like, okay, I can no longer do this.

Andy Bartz (53:35)

Right.

Zoe Paknaud (53:35)

It was no longer functional for me, no longer made sense. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life doing that. It was really hard. And so I thought about, should I explore sail? What should I do? And was pretty open and started writing in my substack, my newsletter about that process. And to answer your question, Becca, it was definitely people who, one to one, were very vulnerable with me. And I think that's because, like, founders have, I think, pretty good network and, like, a little glue there where, you know, one to one, people are super honest with each other about what's harder, what's difficult, but somehow still. And I mean, I know somehow, right? But, like, people are a lot less likely to go on a podcast and say, it's really hard. I'm running my business. I'm having a really hard time. I might have to lay everyone off.

Becca Freeman (54:18)

Or, like, I'm out of money.

Zoe Paknaud (54:20)

You're not going to say that live on air, but you will say that one to one, with another founder. And so I think for me, once I was done and I was on the other side of that, it's for an asset sale. Like, went through the process of finding a job for myself as a, like, you know, quote, unquote, failed founder, which was challenging, but on the other side of that, I felt like I could talk about it because I no longer had, you know, like, it was no longer financially stressful or perilous for me to be like, hey, this thing is hard. It didn't impact my bottom line or my livelihood or my. I didn't have investors. But, like, if you did.

Olivia Mentor (54:53)

Right.

Zoe Paknaud (54:54)

In that sense. But I get why people aren't super candid about the challenges as they live them. And a lot of people aren't afterwards either. I understand, but I wish that more people would be.

Becca Freeman (55:04)

Well, let's rewind. I want to hear about this story in whatever level of detail you're comfortable giving to us. I mean, I assume when we Talked to you last time on the podcast. You were bright eyed and bushy tailed and starting this business. And I don't think anyone starts down any road with the intention of kind of coming to an unsuccessful conclusion, if that's a fair way to put it. So I'm curious, kind of how that trajectory went.

Zoe Paknaud (55:33)

That's a great question. You were correct. I was bright eyed and bushy tailed. I was also so young when I started my business. And the older I get, the more I'm like, geez Louise, that was just nuts.

Becca Freeman (55:46)

Sorry to interrupt your own story, but, like, I think there's something really powerful about naivete and not knowing what you're getting into. Whenever anyone asks me about starting a podcast and they're like, I feel like I don't know enough. I'm like, that's actually probably helpful because if you knew what you were up against, it would be so much harder to start. So, you know, I do think that as I get older, I am slightly more risk averse and I don't know that that's for the better.

Zoe Paknaud (56:12)

I agree with you completely. I'm so much more risk averse now than I was five years ago, which is like, I wish I wasn't. But yeah, I think it's like, good to be young and to take a risk and to not really know. But I think the ways in which I feel like I was really young are sort of not related to risk adversity and more related to like, confidence, like sense of self, or like, you know, having really developed your. I don't even know what the right word is, like, not radar, right, but like compass internally. So I had a really hard time with decisions that I felt like were not likable or wouldn't be popular, like things like that, right, Where I was like extra uncomfortable and extra cognizant of how I felt people perceived me. And it wasted a lot of energy there. And the reality, I think of running a business is like, you have to make really ugly choices all of the time and people are really not going to like them and they're really unlikable. And so I wish I had spent a lot less energies there or like metaphorical calories on that. I wish instead that I just sort of been like, I'm gonna have to make tough choices over and over again. And that's kind of what I signed up for. So that's sort of what I mean when I think about how young I was, and I was also hiring and managing people who are like 10 years my senior and was like insecure and uncomfy with being. I was like 26. So I felt really like that and like it was weird to own that. So those are like, that's just a little thing, right? I'm not saying I failed because I was 26, but now as I sort of look back, I'm like, okay, there's so much more that goes into feeling confident in your choices and then also making really hard choices or like looking objectively at you've founder goggles on. You can't see things clearly. You're like totally obscured by passion and need and all of these really powerful emotions. And I think I might have had an easier time managing them if I had an easier time managing my emotions, period. This is not to discourage Anyone who's 26 from starting a business. This is just like reflections on whoa. Going through this process has really changed the way that I think. And now on the other side of that, I think there's a reason that a lot of investors are eager to invest in second time founders. You're like a different person, right? You're sort of lid is screwed on completely differently. And so now I look at things a little differently and I feel like I would make really, really different, radically different choices.

Olivia Mentor (58:38)

So as you were running the business, you were making these tough choices. You were kind of learning how it is. What was your like, relationship to the idea of it not working out? Was it like you didn't even let your brain go there? Or was it like, this will be the end or by the end were you like, this is a relief, like how. What was that evolution like for you?

Zoe Paknaud (58:59)

Yes. And yes, by the end I was really relieved. Like I think I had a really hard time with denial in 2022. So just for context, I founded a home business. And in Covid, people spent a lot of money. One, shopping small, two, shopping sustainably, and three, shopping home. And those are like the three sort of pillars, I guess, of, of my business as an E Comm marketplace. And I had worked at an E comm marketplace, like a very popular home and kitchen one before then. So I came in with some context about what that landscape was like. But the 2000 teens were very different than how the 2000s are turning out so far. So I had sort of an artificially good year in 2020 and 2021 when Covid really dramatically shaped our spending habits. And by the time, you know that like vaccine access was widespread, we saw a huge change in spending. People suddenly were like spending on experiences, travel, like we Were kind of reopening the gates again. A lot less people shopping small and a lot less people caring about sustainability. It was so like bacchanal rumspringa. Like, Covid is over, everyone's in Italy. But like, yeah, we just, we were living through an insane moment in time. And so by 2022, people were no longer shopping like they did in 2020. Right. Which makes a lot of sense. And I think the era of like, you know, the Goop Food 52 marketplace era was changing. Amazon was like way, way up again. We were just seeing a lot of change. And I realized, like, maybe too late in 2022 that I guess right on time, not really too late. But I realized when I realized I was definitely in denial a little bit that year about like, okay, you know, could I beat Amazon? The whole David and Goliath of it all, Do I even want to beat Amazon? What would that mean? Can it be done? I kind of think no now, but I grappled with and like chewed on those big questions for a lot of 2022. I gave myself a good long time and by the end it was a relief having been in denial for too long and then having really thought about.

Andy Bartz (61:01)

Like, should I pivot?

Zoe Paknaud (61:03)

What would I even pivot to? Why by the time I made that choice and I was like, you know what? I need a job. Like, I need to just get out there and work for someone else, make good old fashioned income. When you don't pay yourself as a founder for a few years, like, suddenly that becomes really attractive. You're like, I love paycheck. That sounds amazing. Health insurance, gorgeous. And so by the time I was like, okay, great, we're doing this, there was a lot of fear around, will anyone even want to hire me? Like, am I even an attractive candidate? But under the fear, a lot of relief and a ton of relief when I had signed an offer letter and was on the other side. Yeah. So I don't know. As I was doing it before 2022, so like the two years that the business was really active and I had employees, I would say that my relationship with failure was like, I wouldn't even allow myself to consider that we could fail. Like, it just didn't even occur to me. I shoved it down, I guess I should say. And I think looking back, and I've written about this a lot, I would do that really differently. I would be super. I'd have a very intimate relationship with the idea of failure. Because it's just realistic. Like there was something a little Bit make believe about thinking this will definitely work because it has to. Like it actually doesn't have to. Most don't. Over 50% fail. So statistically, like I, I can't remember.

Olivia Mentor (62:24)

If it was Mel Robbins who I.

Zoe Paknaud (62:26)

Think it was Mel Robbins in Let them. There's a statistic, like oftentimes we, we hear statistics about other people and we think that won't be me. We have a really weird like proclivity to assume that we couldn't possibly be part of a group of people who are like predisposed to a tendency or an outcome. And so of course like you're running business, you're like, well that won't be me, I won't fail. But like, you know, 50 to 60% do. So I think it could be more. Realistically, it feels crazy to me to think that the divorce rate and the startup failure rate are not the same. One of those things should be better than the other. But yeah, I wish I had been more honest with myself throughout the process and like not in a fear driven way, but just reality check, this could fail. And as a lens, right, like, so if it does, what choices do I want to make? Or do I want to enjoy the process or what are the moments I want to remember? Who do I want by my side when you know it does fail? Like, those are all things I wish I had just had a closer, more honest relationship with.

Becca Freeman (63:30)

I'm curious how the experience shaped your identity both in terms of you did this thing and you failed, but also the worst thing happened. And so now it's already done, the band aid is ripped. How has it changed you now? And also how you approach decision making.

Zoe Paknaud (63:50)

I love that question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that. It's changed me a lot. I think it definitely made me more risk averse. To your point, I can't tell if that how much of that is normal with age in general. I think a lot of it. I say that. And at the same time I keep choosing to work in a super volatile space. I keep choosing to work in early stage startups and like specifically distressed assets. So startups that are filing for bankruptcy or closing, I keep choosing like, I can fix them.

Becca Freeman (64:19)

No, really, I can.

Zoe Paknaud (64:20)

Literally, yeah, that's me and my career. So I keep picking like the highest risk jobs that I possibly can, which is nuts. But that aside, those don't feel risky to me because I've done something riskier, which is what I just did. But I think my relationship with Risk now is I Feel pretty confident that no matter what happens, like, I'll be good. You know, I dug my way out of that. I had a lot less work experience then I was able to get a job doing something I found interesting with a great group of people, and then from there consistently like, you know, growing into a new job, growing into a new job, also with great people, also solving great problems. And so I think even if those are all like, you know, sort of more volatile roles or really high risk spaces, at the end of the day I'm like, you know what? Something bad happens, I could do it again. And that's a really nice feeling. Like, there's a deep safety in me there. Whether it's like, I think I took my greatest failure, which was like, I poured all of my money, years of my life and everything I had into a business. Maybe not everything I had, but a lot of what I had into a business that ultimately, like, didn't reach venture scale, didn't like, have a crazy exit or a crazy outcome at the same time. Also didn't go into debt. I didn't have to file for bankruptcy. I didn't have a personal guarantee. Nothing bad really happened to me.

Olivia Mentor (65:39)

Right.

Zoe Paknaud (65:39)

I just tried something for a few years. Ultimately was like, it's not going to work out the way I wanted it to. Just true of most things I try. I was like, okay, great time to part with it and do something else. And that, like, what a great and empowering thing that is, you know, that. That feels pretty good to me. And I'm like, great, I'll do it again someday. But for now, let's recover financially from like, not working for a while or not working jk, working so much more, but not getting paid for a while. And once I'm on the other side of that, I'm. I'm super open to doing it again. And I think I've learned from that. And I've learned a lot from working in distressed startups and buying and selling them. About how I would structure business, what kinds of debt I would or wouldn't take, and in what circumstances. So that hopefully in the future I feel free to try things, but to structure them yet again in a way where, you know, no one is imperiled if it doesn't work out. Because so many, you know, to be real again, 50 to 60% or more. Don't.

Becca Freeman (66:41)

Something you said just connected back to something I've been thinking about so much recently with my own book that I'm working on that's taken so much longer. Than I anticipated. And, you know, I've written drafts that have not been to the standard that I want them to be. Like, I've struggled with it. And one thing, and I can't remember where I saw this. It's like some kind of self help mantra or something. But the idea that the time would have passed anyway, it's not wasted time. The time would have passed. And so you had this experience and, you know, I think it's fair to say that none of us do work or have worked at any life saving industry. Like, it wasn't. Spending that time wasn't preventing us from curing cancer or, you know, we weren't developing the vaccine. Absolutely. And so, you know, the time was gonna pass. And it could be, you know, working in whatever job for somebody else, or it could be doing this thing and kind of stumbling through it. And no matter what the outcome is, like, the time would have passed anyway.

Zoe Paknaud (67:38)

That's so real. I agree with that. And I also think, like, what a nice education. What an unofficial business school situation to go to. Like, I had a few short years where I learned a lot really fast, and it set me up to do what I do. And also, I should have said this earlier, but, like, my, you know, quote unquote failed business led me to my not failed substack. Like, that's been the greatest, most fortuitous turn of events was I turned my worst failure into, like, now the brightest spot of my career is like, I get to write all the time. I get to know people like you too. And like, how lucky do I feel for that? That's amazing. So I don't know, maybe there's like a lesson in there somewhere. If you feel like you're failing at one thing, like, maybe talking honestly about it gets you to your other thing.

Olivia Mentor (68:24)

Yeah, one thing I was thinking when you both were talking is when you experience this rejection of this thing you've put your whole, your whole heart into, it feels like the greatest, most personal loss. But actually, like, with some distance, you see how much you gained. Like, you, you are more confident. As you were saying, like, you do move through challenges so much differently. You do have this knowledge that, like, all right, I'll do it again someday, and I will be that much better at it. I will know that much more. But it just, it's so interesting how it like flips how one day you're just like, actually there was, there was something so helpful about that. Even if in the moment it was really, really painful. And also what you reminded me of Is that I think rejection and failure on any scale can feel so personal. It's like this indictment of who you are, but actually there's so much out of your control, like the market, the pandemic, the way that shifted. Like, there's no way you could have accounted for each and every change. Just like in writing, in publishing. Like, we can't account for the market either. Like we can't account for whatever a publisher who, you know, sense rejection has going on with all their other books. Like, it feels so intensely personal, but in so many ways it is not. It's just the world, you know, 100%.

Zoe Paknaud (69:43)

I think anytime you put your neck out there, whether you're like, creating creatively, whether you're creating a business, whether, like, it could be a side hustle too. First of all, everything has to come to an end at some point. Like everything naturally does. And so, I don't know, I think sometimes when we start things, I have this disease. At least when I start things, I never really think about the ending or like, am I going to maintain this creative project or this side hustle for the next decade? Like, what's my game plan there? I'm prone to just like, start and then think that I'm going to figure it out, or like, it's going to be amazing forever. When, of course, that's not the case. But something that was oddly and bizarrely healing was in this job I have now. And my last job, my job really has been to like, help buy and sell distressed consumer brands and meeting all these founders and seeing all these situations, looking at all of like, you know, a business's books and really understanding, like, how. How things go wrong and how sometimes they don't go wrong. The founder's just really tired. It's been a really hard five years to run a business. So I think, like, exposing myself to that over and over again is almost like exposure therapy. I'm like, yeah, it's not personal to me at all. It's not personal to them. It's not personal to anyone. Right? Like, things happen to literally everyone. And then when things don't happen, sometimes you still just have to walk away or it's time to walk away. And that has really helped. Weirdly enough, working in something that, like, it could have gone either way. It could have absolutely re traumatized me, or it could do what it's done where it just feels part of the human experience, right? Like there's a beginning and an end and it's all quite natural. And just because something's ending doesn't mean you're not about to begin something amazing anyway, as is true with, like, I don't know, with books or with any creative output, like, your next inspiration's around the corner. You just might not know it yet. Is that sappy? Maybe. Whatever it is.

Becca Freeman (71:29)

But I feel like I'm in a very earnest era.

Zoe Paknaud (71:32)

I appreciate it.

Andy Bartz (71:33)

Oh, good.

Zoe Paknaud (71:33)

I love that. I love this.

Olivia Mentor (71:34)

I love this. So I think you've given so much perspective and in that advice to anyone who's going through a similar situation. But for anyone out there who is thinking about starting a business, who is in the middle of starting it, who is maybe going through that denial slash, like, just panicked phase, what is the main advice you would give? Like, what are, you know, a couple things that you wish day one, you had had in your mind?

Zoe Paknaud (72:03)

Oof. That is such a loaded question. Okay, let's see. I think a lot of people are in a tough spot with tariffs. Not to get all tariff mode on you guys, but I think, like, that's the crisis du jour.

Becca Freeman (72:15)

I mean, who knows what it'll be when this episode goes live.

Zoe Paknaud (72:18)

I know, I know. Well, let's just say tariffs at time of recording are very scary.

Becca Freeman (72:23)

Yeah.

Zoe Paknaud (72:24)

No idea what they'll be like at time of listening, but I think if you are in a denial situation or you're in a. Oh, my God. I'm not sure if this will work out. You're not alone. It's really hard. There's probably someone who wants to buy your business. Don't be scared. I write about this often. You're in good company and you'll figure it out. And then for folks who are just starting, I hear all the time that, like, periods of economic uncertainty or scariness are, like, the best times to drive innovation or to start something new. I hear that all the time. I don't know why. I would love for someone to explain it to me. That seems like one of those LinkedIn platitudes. I'm like, but why? Why?

Olivia Mentor (73:07)

Is this a trick?

Zoe Paknaud (73:08)

Yeah, I'm like, explain to me why this is a good time to make something. But I guess I would say that there's probably something to that, so I would research that.

Olivia Mentor (73:17)

Let me know what you find.

Andy Bartz (73:18)

Fill me in.

Zoe Paknaud (73:19)

And also, just, like, I think one thing I wish I had told myself, I felt a lot of pressure. And I don't know if you guys feel this way as creatives. Like, when I have an idea, I feel a need to see it through to, like, maximum possible creative Completion. Like, I'm. I'm not, you know, the whole theory around creating a minimum viable product or an mvp, like, just put out, like, a test the smallest version of something, see how it goes. No, I'm not capable of that. There's a part of me that wants.

Olivia Mentor (73:48)

To be, like, great.

Zoe Paknaud (73:50)

Like, I was like, let's build the whole business and launch it. I did not do, like, a soft test. I did not think, like, okay, great. I really care about sustainable home products. What if I started with, like, an affiliatized newsletter or, like, you know, what if I just wrote a blog and then maybe later I added products? If a lot of people read the blog, I was like, nope, we're going to create a retail store with 300 brands day one. So my advice would be to not do what I did. Not because it worked out so terribly for me, and I'm so miserable. Right. But just, like, I think it makes a lot of sense to kind of validate an idea, test an idea, maybe go, like, one foot into the water instead of, like, full body into the pool. But, you know, teach their own. If you're a diver as well, and you're like me, and you have to do it all at once, I can't judge you. I, too, have that illness.

Becca Freeman (74:39)

So, Zoe, tell the listeners where they can find, especially your substack, but anything else you want to plug, too, because I feel like if this is resonating, then there's, like, a wealth more of meditations on this and also all kinds of other stuff. Even if you are not a business owner, you talk a lot about travel and about shopping and about life.

Zoe Paknaud (74:58)

Yeah, for sure. Ziz. I like to write about really heavy stuff and then fun, not important stuff, like what books I'm reading or what shoes to love. But anyway, it is first rodeo. It is spelled like. If you were to visit the website, the number1st rodeo.com, like, first. First rodeo.com, first rodeo on substack. That's me, and my name is Azora Zoe Packnaud. But Becca actually really pronounced my last name amazingly in this intro. I was so impressed and dazzled. That doesn't happen very often.

Becca Freeman (75:30)

Thank you.

Zoe Paknaud (75:31)

Is it. Maybe it's because you know me in real life? I don't know.

Olivia Mentor (75:34)

Yeah.

Becca Freeman (75:35)

Yeah.

Olivia Mentor (75:36)

Well, thank you so much for this. It's been wonderful.

Becca Freeman (75:44)

Olivia. That was such a heartening two discussions.

Olivia Mentor (75:48)

I could have done, like, an hour each with them.

Zoe Paknaud (75:52)

Oh, yeah.

Olivia Mentor (75:52)

At one point, we were actually thinking about interviewing more people, and I'm kind Of glad we didn't, because I just think there's so much, so much to talk about with each person's individual journey. So I'm so grateful that they were so open with us and so inspired by them.

Becca Freeman (76:07)

Well, let's get to some obsessions. Tell me what you're obsessed with.

Olivia Mentor (76:10)

My obsession is a big one for me. Like, it is sometimes all I can think about, and that is butter pecan iced coffee at Dunkin.

Becca Freeman (76:20)

Is this now a new flavor or is this just new to you?

Olivia Mentor (76:24)

So apparently it used to be seasonal, and now it is year round.

Becca Freeman (76:27)

Okay.

Olivia Mentor (76:27)

It's new to me. I don't stray too far into the sweetened flavors of Dunkin'beyond like a vanilla because they are so sweet. They're so sweet. However, this is. It's not the case with this one.

Becca Freeman (76:38)

Interesting.

Olivia Mentor (76:39)

I don't know what they did differently here. And I'm not usually a butter pecan person. Like, I would never get that flavor ice cream. It doesn't speak to me. There is something about the, like, slightly sweet nuttiness of this flavor that just makes every coffee taste perfect.

Zoe Paknaud (76:56)

Huh?

Olivia Mentor (76:57)

Perfect. It is not overly sweet. I think the perfect combination is medium iced coffee. Two. Two creams, two butter pecans. But I will go to three. I will go to three. And it's not overpowering. Like, three vanilla is like three. Vanilla is like. You've had a lot of sugar.

Becca Freeman (77:15)

I've been burned before. I tend to get hazelnut. And there used to be both a sweetened hazelnut and an unsweetened hazelnut. And I would always specify I wanted the unsweetened one. And sometimes I would end up with a sweetened one. And I would have to throw out the coffee. It was too much.

Olivia Mentor (77:30)

Yeah, it's a lot. But I'm telling you, like, I would even maybe suggest doing like one or two butter pecan and then one hazelnut unsweetened. Oh, they don't have unsweetened anymore. Or they do. I don't know.

Becca Freeman (77:42)

They do. Yeah. I'm pretty sold. Like, I'm maybe going to Dunkin after this.

Olivia Mentor (77:48)

It's so good. So when I was. I was teaching that class in. In Maryland and my cousin was driving us to school every day, I would buy us both Dunkin. Every morning we go through the drive through. And then on our last day, the man in Duncan was like, see guys tomorrow. Because we had gone five days in a row and I tried something different. And then the third day I tried this and I just like, it is the Perfect. Perfect treat. Iced coffee. Like, oh, I might have to get it today anyway. I'm going on way too long. But, like, I honestly am very passionate. Apparently, Kylie Kelce is, like, a big evangelist for this as well. So.

Becca Freeman (78:26)

I mean, having a new coffee order is a big life. I'm not being. I'm not joking. Like, it is a big life milestone.

Olivia Mentor (78:34)

I hope you like it. I hope you do. What's your obsession?

Becca Freeman (78:38)

Okay, not on purpose, but I feel like my obsession ties in perfectly to the subject matter here. So I started this audiobook yesterday. I feel like a book has to be extra special to end up in the obsessions category, but I started this audiobook yesterday called Anatomy of A Breakthrough by Adam Alter, and it's all about the psychological science of getting stuck and getting unstuck. And it is fascinating. Like, I don't think it is overselling it to say that I think it should be required reading for any creator of any kind, whether that's in the business realm or in the art realm. Like, it is fascinating. And it's a combination of case studies, some of whom are people you definitely know. Like, it talks about Amazon. It talks about Airbnb. It talks about the 80s band. Aha. It talks about the actress Brie Larson. It talks about many, many writers, and then a lot of psychological research about the science behind this. And I just am finding my mind being blown over and over again. And it's really challenging a lot of my internalized assumptions about how the creative process works. And so I'm enjoying it so much. I'm only about a third of the way through. So next week or whenever I'm done with it, we'll talk about it again in the book section. I'll let you know if it really dives off a cliff at the 30% point. But, oh, my God, I'm inventing tasks for myself to do with an audiobook.

Olivia Mentor (80:11)

You should, after this, go take a walk to Duncan.

Becca Freeman (80:15)

That's why I'm very keen to go to Duncan. I was like, I can combine this gives me a reason to listen to my audiobook.

Olivia Mentor (80:21)

Yeah, I'm definitely gonna download this. And also, I feel like this subject really ties in nicely with this episode. Like, this idea of roadblocks. And so it sounds perfect for me, too. Well, what else are you reading?

Becca Freeman (80:37)

So I feel confident that I have a pairing of books that have never before and will never again be put together in the same sentence or segment. So first I read Audition by Katie Kitamura, and then I read Filthy Rich Fae By Geneva Lee.

Olivia Mentor (80:59)

Different. Different vibes.

Zoe Paknaud (81:01)

Different, different vibes.

Becca Freeman (81:03)

So first I read Audition by Katie Kitamura. It's new, it came out last week. I've never read anything by her before. She's like a highly conceptual literary fiction author. I enjoyed this book so much. I'm very seriously thinking of making it our book club pick for May. Do I feel like I fully understood the plot? No, I don't.

Olivia Mentor (81:29)

I need to tell. Okay, we've been talking about this book a bit off pod, and I need to tell you that I read the Kirkus review of it. And I had to read it like four times to even understand the review of it, which was starred, by the way. And, like, everyone is raving about it. So I am highly curious about this. Highly.

Becca Freeman (81:47)

So it's 208 pages, really slim book. It is about a woman who is an actress who is in rehearsals for a play. And the opening scene, she goes to lunch with this much younger man. And it is unclear what their relationship is to each other. And the book kind of surrounds who they are to each other. So it was really easy to read. And it was not the kind of, like, very dense literary fiction where it sounds like the Kirkus review was maybe denser than the text of the book. It was very easy to read. It was conceptual. I'm not positive what happened, however, thematically, it had so much to say about performance, both as an actor, which I was less interested in, although there is one anecdote in it that will stick with me for forever, but then also about our performance in our real lives, our performance in roles of wife, mother, just how we are perceived more broadly. It was fascinating.

Olivia Mentor (82:57)

Yes. This is the one thing that I picked out from the review that they said it's about the ways they were performing, even amongst those that we're closest to or even within our families.

Becca Freeman (83:06)

Yes.

Olivia Mentor (83:06)

Which as a concept I find just really, really interesting. So. Sounds great.

Becca Freeman (83:13)

It makes me slightly nervous to be like, do I want to lead a discussion about a book I'm not sure I understood? I don't know. Maybe I do, honestly, in a lot.

Olivia Mentor (83:22)

Of ways, that's how I felt about All Fours. I'm like, I appreciate it. I understand why everyone loves it. I enjoyed it. Can't say I really clicked with every part of it, nor did I even maybe understand something.

Becca Freeman (83:33)

No, it's totally different than that. Like, it has a element to it that, like, I'm not even confident in what happened in the plot anyway.

Olivia Mentor (83:43)

Sounds like it could be a fun discussion.

Becca Freeman (83:45)

I Agree. So we're mulling that. The second book I read was Filthy Rich Fae by Geneva Leigh. I'm embarrassed to even tell you the title of this. So I read this because Katie from Beach Reads and Bubbly had read it, I don't know, a couple months back and she raved about it. And it is a real genre mashup. It is obviously a creature romance. The male love interest is Fae. It's a mafia romance, a billionaire romance. It really just is like, hey, naturally.

Olivia Mentor (84:16)

Okay, yeah.

Becca Freeman (84:18)

So it's about the Fae in this world run basically the mafia in New Orleans. And there's like a drug that is sweeping through the party scene there, that's killing people that they're supplying. And this woman who's a human, she's a trauma nurse, ends up making a bargain for her soul with this man who she doesn't know is a Fae and goes to his world. It is, you know. Is it Acotar? No. Is it Fourth Wing? No. Did I rip through this book? Absolutely. I expected it to be much more smutty based on the title, to be honest with you. And there's a lot of longing, there's a lot of thinking about it. But these people don't do more than kiss until like 80% mark. So it was much more.

Olivia Mentor (85:08)

Well, they have to handle the drugs, you know, they have to deal with that first.

Becca Freeman (85:11)

Of course, it was much more plot based than I would have imagined based on the title. And I finished it and I went immediately to. I got it on Kindle Unlimited and I went immediately to the Kindle Unlimited store to get the second book and I was furious because it's not out until May.

Olivia Mentor (85:30)

Oh, well, yeah, I was kind of thinking you were gonna say like there's 35 books in the series or something.

Becca Freeman (85:36)

No, I think it's supposed to be a duology, which is why I felt confident reading it in the first place. I cannot get into a ten book fantasy series. I do not have room in my life for that. I've just broken up with Lost.

Olivia Mentor (85:48)

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Well, something to look forward to.

Becca Freeman (85:52)

Something absolutely to look forward to. What about you? What did you read?

Olivia Mentor (85:56)

I read Old Money by Kelsey Miller, which is out in September. This is a thriller about this. It's dual timeline. It's this woman who when she was growing up, her. Her cousin died at this country club in this town where they grew up. That's very like. I think it's technically based on Sleepy Hollow, New York. So it felt like this Very real, like, small town, old school place with secrets. And they're at the country club when they're younger and the cousin dies and this woman in the present timeline returns to her hometown to sort of like, uncover what actually happened. And it's the most I've enjoyed a thriller in so long because the main character was so smart and funny and so like, all these observations about her hometown felt just super real. I don't know. I love a thriller where I can, like, laugh at the sarcastic comments that the main character is throwing out. So, yeah, I just really, I really enjoyed this one. So not out till September, but definitely something to keep on your radar if you're looking for a fun, smart thriller.

Zoe Paknaud (87:02)

Love.

Becca Freeman (87:03)

Well, I am very much looking forward to our book club in two weeks. I haven't started the book yet, but I am ready. I not only have the book queued up, but I also have a few interviews with the author. I'm excited to read. I'm excited about this one. Tell us what we're reading.

Olivia Mentor (87:20)

Oh, great. Yes. We are reading Wild DarkShore by Charlotte McConaughey, who is the person I mentioned emailing at the top of this episode. This is about a man and his three children who are all living at this remote research station on an island near Antarctica. And one day a woman washes to shore injured, and they have to care for her. And slowly you find out why she's there. There's lots of other secrets. There's twists and turns. You will probably cry. It's. It's a lot. But I adore it and I'm excited to talk about it.

Becca Freeman (87:57)

Can't wait. So we have that coming up in two weeks. In the meantime, come talk to us about anything in this episode, about books, about anything in the Facebook group or the Geneva group, which is like Slack not for work chat room app. Both are under betonpaper. You can follow us on Instagram atonpaperpodcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter.

Olivia Mentor (88:22)

Is Becca freeman.substack.com I am on Instagram and substack liviamentor.

Becca Freeman (88:28)

And we are going to Dunkin. See ya.

Olivia Mentor (88:33)

I thought you were gonna say. And we are. Potatoes.

Becca Freeman (88:36)

Oh, that too. That too.

Olivia Mentor (88:38)

Potatoes. Going to Dunkin is a vibe frolicking potatoes.

Becca Freeman (88:41)

Butter pecan potatoes. Bye.

Olivia Mentor (88:45)

Ooh.

Andy Bartz (88:45)

By.