Transcript

A (0:18)

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Bow and Paper Podcast. I'm Olivia, Mentor.

B (0:22)

And I'm Becca Freeman.

A (0:23)

And today is our February book club episode and we are going to be discussing little one by yours truly, Olivia.

B (0:31)

I can't tell you how excited I've been for this episode to be able to talk about spoilers because there were so many things I wanted to ask you when we did our event together at the Strand, but I obviously couldn't because it was, you know, an inclusive event for people who had not read the book yet. But now this is book club. We can talk about everything.

A (0:54)

Yeah, I'm. I'm really looking forward to it. I hope I give everyone the answers that they're looking for. Or at least answers.

B (1:01)

Well, before we get into that, tell me what your high is.

A (1:04)

My high is that I am so deeply happy to be home. Like, I'm so happy to be back in the routine, back in my own bed, back in my office, back listening to my music, like, just back to my writing, back to silence. Like, it feels so nice to just be back. And yeah, as great as Tor is, I, like, love this just as much. And so I'm really glad for the balance. And it's just been great to just sleep a lot and relax.

B (1:36)

Oh, I'm so happy for you. Have you taken that day we discussed on last week's three things? Your solo restorative day?

A (1:43)

No, I. I kind of have plans to do it today, but I have some work to do. I've basically just been working normal days, but they've felt so leisurely compared to the month leading up to pub, where it's like, oh, I have a to do list and I will get everything done and be cooking dinner by 5:30. That is great. But I will at some point. I've been getting in bed really early and sleeping in a bit, so it has felt restorative even if it hasn't been like, time off.

B (2:11)

Oh, good. You do deserve that day. I think you deserve a couple of them.

A (2:15)

Thank you. Thank you. I'll get there. Tell me about your high.

B (2:19)

I went to the coolest book event this week. A few weeks ago, I got an email from somebody and it said, invitation from Jenna Bush Hager. And my immediate instinct was that this was one of those phishing scams that they always warn authors about. You know, I was like, what do you mean?

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast

Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter

Episode: Little One Book Club

Date: February 25, 2026

Episode Overview

This February book club episode is a deep-dive discussion of Little One, the newly released novel written by co-host Olivia Muenter. Becca and Olivia explore the inspiration, writing journey, themes, and spoilers for the book—ranging from cult dynamics and family loyalty to the process of titling a novel and the psychology of "unlikeable" female characters. Olivia offers insider insights on the book's evolution, twists, and open-ended conclusion, while Becca brings the perspective of a close reader and friend. Together, they also reflect on broader questions about community, self-presentation, and sustaining a creative career.

Highlights & Key Discussion Points

[00:23] Episode Introduction and Personal Updates

Hosts introduce the episode's focus: an all-access, spoiler-filled book club discussion of Little One—Olivia’s novel.
Olivia’s High: Happy to be back home after book tour, returning to routines and rest.

“As great as tour is, I, like, love this just as much.” —Olivia [01:04]
Becca’s High: Attending a prestigious book dinner hosted by Jenna Bush Hager, being recognized as an author alongside admired writers, and hearing inspiring stories from a debut author at 62.
Lows: Both share dog-related challenges and setbacks in routines, providing relatable, personal context.

Main Book Discussion: Little One (Spoilers!)

[13:28] Spoiler Warning

Multiple, emphatic spoiler warnings for listeners who haven’t read Little One yet.

[14:24] Book Summary & Initial Reactions

Synopsis (as read by Olivia):
“Little One follows Catherine, who grew up in a wellness centric cult, and as an adult, she has done everything she can to distance herself from the past. But when a journalist comes sniffing around with questions, her carefully crafted life is threatened, but she might be willing to risk it to find the sister she loved, then lost.”

Cult Books & Inspiration

Mount Rushmore of Cult Novels: Olivia didn’t read other cult novels before writing; inspiration came later through memoirs like Seductive Poison and documentaries/series about groups like NXIVM.

“Everyone is always really shocked about this. I’ve never read The Girls by Emma Cline, ever.” —Olivia [16:12]
The Seed of the Idea: Sparked by the emotional effect of Ashley Audrain’s The Push, and a fascination, not with cults, but with tightly controlled communities and how they shape women.

“I think the kernel was really this idea of a person growing up in a very specific, controlled, tight knit community … what that experience would do to a person and specifically to a woman.” —Olivia [17:51]
Naming protagonist “Catherine” was inspired by a nearby street; originally, the novel wasn’t explicitly about a cult.

[20:26] The Evolution of Little One: Ghost Drafts & Big Changes

The Famous First Line: “When the plane went down, I was thinking about donuts.” Early drafts featured a county fair, donuts, and Rhys as Catherine’s husband—not a journalist.

“The first original version … Catherine goes to a county fair … she meets this guy named Rhys who eventually introduces her to all the things that she is not allowed to have in her community, which includes sugar and donuts.” —Olivia [21:06]
Major Rewrites:
- Early drafts were more of a “sexy thriller,” inspired by Verity.
- Over time, much changed—especially character relationships, plot twists, and timelines.
- Only “40 to 60%” of the original survived.
Chronology Challenges: The present timeline unfolds over a few weeks, while the past spans Catherine’s childhood into adolescence. The cult’s intensity and Catherine’s awareness both escalate over time.

[25:58] Cult Dynamics, Inspirations, and Real-World Parallels

A “Cult Soup”: No single real-life group inspired the cult, but elements are drawn from various sources (Sister Wives, NXIVM, health fads, patriarchal systems).
Parallel to Real Trends: Discussion of the “MAHA” (Make America Healthy Again) movement and the influence of fads like raw milk, beef tallow, and even sourdough:

“So much of it … has to do with MAHA. … there’s a whole episode on raw milk, for example, which is… a very sort of MAHA-coded thing.” —Olivia [28:20]
Little-c Cults: Both hosts reflect on common “cult-like” experiences—diets, fitness, social beauty standards, the desire to belong, and how these interlock with the novel’s themes.

[33:11] Family, Loyalty, and Sister Dynamics

Family as Cult:
- Catherine’s father is the group leader; her mother and sister Lynna are central.
- The push-pull of loyalty, rebellion, and the confusion when family perpetuates, then questions, restrictive systems.
“You want so badly to be part of something … and you think that your gut instinct that you shouldn’t be in it … is just weakness.” —Olivia [34:21]
Sisters: Both Little One and Olivia’s previous novel, Such a Bad Influence, center sister relationships, even though Olivia has no sisters herself—originally, they were cousins in both books.

[38:16] Writing Process: Parallel Timelines & Catherine’s Psychology

Writing in Parallel: Olivia wrote past and present together, understanding “feelings very clearly” even when plot changed.
Trauma’s Imprint: Catherine’s hyper-controlled adult life flows from betrayal/shock in childhood—her inability to see her mother and Lynna planning an escape, or later, her father’s violence.
Relatability Over Likability:
- Olivia doesn’t focus on making Catherine “likeable”, but on honesty/complexity, echoing broader conversations about women’s likability in culture and fiction.
“Women who are honest and who are real are so much more interesting than women who are polite … I thought if I read this character, would I see part of myself and would I feel understood?” —Olivia [42:31]

[45:54] The Romance Genre & Character Empathy

Becca shares the “save the cat” approach and how romance genres require empathy and relatability, if not pure likability.
Both examine how wounds and backstories invite reader connection.

[48:36] Secrets, Presentations, and Social Media

Catherine’s compartmentalization—projecting wellness and togetherness while hiding inner chaos—feels like a social media metaphor.

“You present something, but behind the scenes is a whole of shit going on… in terms of, like, presenting a person who is more evolved than the wounds of their childhood, you know, but behind the scenes, it's like, it's all still right there.” —Olivia [48:36]

[49:26] Twists, Thrills, and Genre

Rhys & Power: Romantic undercurrents echo the power dynamics modeled by Catherine’s father and cult.
Genre Labels: Little One resists straightforward classification; Olivia prefers “suspense” over “thriller” but is open to multiple interpretations.
Crafting Twists: Plot reveals (Rhys’s source, Catherine killing her father, Lynna/Marian) were developed more organically than mathematically, some fixed early (patricide), others moved/re-engineered in edits.

“I wish I was thinking about it mathematically. No, I find twists really hard. But yeah, it’s more of like a—there needs to be something here, there needs to be something there.” —Olivia [52:46]

[54:00] The Ending: Interpretation, Easter Eggs, and Author Intent

Open Ending: The book’s conclusion is purposefully ambiguous—what kind of community is Catherine starting? Does she know she’s repeating patterns from her past, or does she believe it genuinely different?

“...my vision, she was [starting her own community] … but rather, does she know that she is, or does she think that she is starting her own version of how she grew up? Or does she not?” —Olivia [54:42]
Lynna as Marian Earl: Confirmed by Olivia; sprinkled with Easter eggs (song references, geography, literary clues), Marian chooses distance as Catherine becomes more cult-like herself.

[59:25] Hallmarks, Future Books, and Pressure

Is This Kind of Ending “An Olivia Muenter Thing”?: Possibly. Open-ended, twisty epilogues have appeared in both published books; Olivia’s considering this as a “hallmark,” though she’s interested in trying more definitive/black-and-white resolutions in future work.

[60:38] The Publication Journey & Titling the Book

Little One started as Olivia’s first novel, paused mid-way for Olivia’s debut, then returned to with new perspective and growth as a writer.
Revisions: Adding Marian Earl plotline late, inventing the “fake” epigraph, and battling for the perfect title.
Titles Considered:
- “Olivia Writes a Thriller” [working title]
- “The House of Catherine West”
- “The Most Monstrous Thing” (submitted to editors; never quite felt right)
- “Everybody Wants This”
- “Nothing Tastes as Good”
- “Little One” ultimately clicked, referencing both Catherine’s role as her father’s “darling” and the cyclical nature of trauma/power.
“It was quite the journey … but the whole process was worth it in the end.” —Olivia [70:45]

[71:01] Broader Reflections: The Why of Writing

Olivia’s companion podcast, Little Pod, explores why she writes fiction—hint: not just for fame, but for meaning, perseverance, and self-acceptance. She and Becca discuss the realities of chasing creative dreams, fears in publishing, and the necessity of “just keep going.”

“Am I willing to write the next thing knowing that, too? … and the answer is a resounding yes.” —Olivia [72:55]
On comparing career arcs with established authors:

“…it sometimes takes five, six, seven, eight books … or it sometimes doesn’t happen at all.” —Olivia [73:35]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“There is this part of you who feels like when someone says, ‘oh, this is ridiculous, I’m not doing this’ … you think … that your gut instinct that you shouldn’t be in it for whatever reason is just weakness.” —Olivia [34:21]
“Women who are honest and who are real are so much more interesting than women who are polite and women who are understandable and easily definable.” —Olivia [42:31]
“You present something, but behind the scenes is a whole of shit going on.” —Olivia [48:36]
“It was quite the journey … but the whole process was worth it in the end.” —Olivia (on titles) [70:45]
“I think there is this thing in the back of my mind with every book where it’s like, ‘this is gonna be the one that changes everything’ ... but there is kind of, like, a relief in that and a comfort in that.” —Olivia [71:35]

[77:00] End Matter: Obsessions & Recent Reads

Obsessions:
- Becca: Exploring her new neighborhood (podcasts: Happier in Hollywood).
- Olivia: New Game of Thrones spinoff, A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms — “Game of Thrones had a baby with Shrek” [77:56].
Recent Reads:
- Becca: Family Drama by Rebecca Fallon — Intergenerational story about a soap opera actress mom and her children.
- Olivia: The Death of Us by Abigail Dean (dark, London-set thriller with nontraditional structure); Helpless by Jessica Knoll (erotic thriller, wild ride, forthcoming).

[84:12] March Book Club Pick

March’s pick is So Old, So Young by Grant Ginder — a friendship novel told across five parties over 20 years.
Next book club episode: March 25th.

[85:59] Where to Find the Hosts

Podcast Facebook Group, BFF App, and Instagram: @badonpaperpodcast
Becca: Instagram @beccamfreeman, Substack newsletter
Olivia: Instagram/Substack @oliviamenter, Little One available wherever books are sold

Timestamps for Key Segments

[14:24] – Book summary and personal context
[20:26] – Writing process and changes from first draft
[25:58] – Cult inspirations and real-world health trends
[33:11] – Family dynamics and sisterhood in the book
[38:16] – Present-day Catherine and trauma’s long reach
[42:00] – Likability of female characters in fiction
[48:36] – Relatability, secrets, and social media metaphors
[49:26] – Twists, genre definitions, and reverse engineering plot
[54:00] – The ambiguous ending, Easter eggs, and Marian/Marian mystery
[59:25] – Hallmarks of Olivia’s writing and open endings
[60:38] – Publication journey and evolution of the title
[71:01] – Why write fiction? Persevering in creative careers
[77:00] – Obsessions and notable recent reads
[84:12] – Next book club pick

This episode provides an in-depth and playful look at Little One while tackling wider questions about writing, the creative process, and the ever-present quest for meaning and community. It’s a must-listen for fans of psychological fiction, anyone intrigued by cults or the process behind the novels they love, and for aspiring writers searching for honesty and encouragement.