Nic Stone on making the jump from YA to adult fiction

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Nic Stone on Making the Jump from YA to Adult Fiction"

Bad On Paper
Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
Guest: Nic Stone
Date: October 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Becca and Olivia sit down with acclaimed author Nic Stone to discuss her transition from writing young adult (YA) fiction to releasing her debut adult novel, Boomtown—a genre-bending thriller set in an Atlanta strip club. The conversation delves into Nic’s creative process, the social themes explored in her new book, differences between publishing and promoting YA vs. adult fiction, and her desire to break stigmas around sex work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Nic Stone’s Author Origin Story

• Delayed Start in Writing:
  • Nic didn’t always know she’d be a writer; she started writing at 27, despite always loving books and stories.
    • "I started writing when I was 27. I'm like, 40... But the more that I write, the more I realize I probably always wanted to." – Nic Stone [10:57]
• YA as a Starting Point:
  • She gravitated to children’s books because adolescence was a period she finally understood.
  • She wrote the books she wished she’d had as a young girl.
• Pivot to Adult Fiction:
  • Recently, Nic recognized it was time for a new challenge.
    • "We are 39. We could totally do this for grownups too." [11:39]
  • Ongoing bans of her YA books inspired her to write something unbannable:
    • "So I get banned a lot in the children's literature space. So this is my, like, big middle finger that's like, oh, okay, sure. Ban my books about kids. ... I'll just write about strippers... this won't be in high schools anyway..." – Nic Stone [12:08-12:16]

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"Boomtown": Concept, Themes & Structure

• Book Pitch:
  • Boomtown = P. Valley meets Gone Girl.
    • "It follows an erotic dancer who decides to investigate after two of her colleagues go missing within, like, a year of each other." – Nic Stone [12:29]
  • While marketed as a thriller, Nic emphasizes it has a literary bent and defies thriller conventions.
• Personal Inspiration:
  • Grew up with exposure to dancers through her dad (police officer handling dancer permits).
  • Trained exotic dancers as a personal trainer.
• Challenging Stigmas:
  • The novel explores the humanity and complexity of sex workers, especially Black women.
    • "There's almost this notion that it's okay to dehumanize these women because of what they decide to do for a living. And I just think that's complete bullshit." – Nic Stone [14:02]
• Social Commentary:
  • Book inspired partly by the media’s uneven attention to missing persons (e.g., Gabby Petito vs. missing Black women).
  • Themes of power, privilege, self-empowerment, and control over one’s body.

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Transitioning from YA to Adult Fiction

• Creative Process:
  • Ideas percolate for years; each project gets its own composition notebook.
    • "I think about everything for a long time before I sit down and start writing." – Nic Stone [15:22]
• Freedom & Learning Curve:
  • Writing for adults means fewer restrictions (no need for tidy endings or curriculum suitability).
    • "I can just write for the sake of entertaining. Like, there doesn't have to be a lesson." [16:08]
  • Learning to embrace an unrestricted, “grown” perspective in her writing.
• Publishing Side:
  • Although the adult novel is with a different publishing house, Nic is buoyed by support from her team and existing track record.
    • "It's okay if I'm debuting to them. I have a really solid team behind me who believes in me..." [19:04]

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Research and Portrayal of Sex Work

• Immersive Research:
  • Visited strip clubs, interviewed dancers both on and off the job.
    • "Writing off my strip club visits was absolutely delightful. It's research. I was doing research." – Nic Stone [21:04]
  • Found dancers open and eager to share their experiences—valued the nonjudgmental space.
• Perspectives & Stereotypes:
  • Sought to portray sex workers as empowered, multidimensional people rather than default victims.
    • "It was a lot of fun doing this research. Also really enlightening... women who use their bodies to make a living catch a really bad rap... For me, this is a book that is not only about power and privilege, but it's also about... Self empowerment and living in the body that belongs to you and taking ownership of that body in spite of circumstances that tell you you're not allowed to." [21:27-22:04]

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Novel Structure & Writing Techniques

• Multiple POVs & Nonlinear Timelines:
  • The story unfolds through multiple perspectives (at least five), alternating between past (Lucky’s POV) and present (Lyric’s POV).
    • "I don't know how to write a straightforward book. I've never succeeded at it." – Nic Stone [24:46]
  • Inspired by Jennifer Egan's A Visit from the Goon Squad.
  • Nic is a meticulous outliner; she builds her novels like puzzles.
    • "Plot puzzles are my most favorite thing." [27:30]

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Thematic Discussion: Compassion, Empathy, and Power

• Women Making Hard Choices:
  • At its core, Boomtown is about women doing the best they can with limited choices.
    • "Everyone that you meet is doing the best they can with what they have. ... all of these women, every single woman in this book has some kind of hardship..." – Nic Stone [31:16]
  • Hopes the book fosters more empathetic readings of people’s lives beyond surface judgments.
• Refusing Objectification:
  • Men in club scenes are intentionally anonymous; focus is on the women’s agency and interiority.
    • "It is super important to me that when people read this book, they recognize that every single woman who makes a conscious decision to engage in sex work, she knows what she's doing, right?" – Nic Stone [36:54]
  • Acknowledges the collaborative role of her editor and beta reader in ensuring the women’s empowerment rings true.

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Additional Notable Discussions

• Male Feminist Editor:
  • Nic explicitly calls out and appreciates having a male editor who is a true feminist and supports Black culture.
    • "He's the goatist of goats." [38:07]
• Breast Cancer Plotline:
  • Explores issues often left unaddressed, including the intersection of sex work and health struggles like cancer.
    • "It just made sense for me as a writer to make sure it's clear that these women's lives are very complex... And that is at the core of the story." – Nic Stone [40:26-41:37]
• Teens Reading Adult Books:
  • Nic predicts Boomtown may find an audience with teen girls, citing her own experience "reading up" as a teenager.
• Marketing and Audience Differences:
  • Marketing adult fiction feels “boxless”—more spontaneous and wide-ranging, compared to targeted school-gatekeeper marketing for YA.
    • "There's just. There's no, like, rails. ... I'm like, what is this? So we're just, we're going to see how this goes. I don't know." – Nic Stone [46:01]
• Audiobook:
  • Features a full cast of five narrators, including Nic herself (whose POV remains a spoiler).
    • "I do one of the POVs." [48:24]
• Future Projects:
  • More adult and children's books forthcoming; sees this as "expansion" not "transition."
    • "The next adult book is 2027 and there will be another adult thriller. Ready? Thrillerary. It's like a thrillerary novel." – Nic Stone [49:06]

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Memorable Quotes

• On Breaking Stigma:
  • "There's almost this notion that it's okay to dehumanize these women because of what they decide to do for a living. And I just think that's complete bullshit." – Nic Stone [14:02]
• On Creative Process:
  • "Plot puzzles are my most favorite thing... That part of the creative process when it comes to writing is my absolute favorite...when, like, something clicks and you're like, that's it." – Nic Stone [27:30]
• On Empowerment:
  • "What we can control is how we think about things, the stories we tell ourselves about things." – Nic Stone [36:54]
• On Audience:
  • "I do think that there will be some high school kids, some girls specifically who are, who get really into this. Like I just have a hunch about it and I kind of hope it happens just because I want people to read what they want to read." – Nic Stone [43:10]
• On Making Up Words (about 'thrillerary'):
  • "Thriller but it's literary—thrillerary." – Nic Stone [49:30]

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Important Timestamps

• Nic’s Author Story: [10:57–12:16]
• Boomtown’s Inspiration & Pitch: [12:29–15:00]
• Switching to Adult Fiction: [15:22–16:43]
• Publishing/Marketing Differences: [17:09–19:04] / [46:01–47:51]
• Researching Strip Club Life: [21:04–24:19]
• Narrative Structure: [24:46–28:46]
• Themes of Choice & Empathy: [31:16–33:52]
• Portraying Power in the Club: [34:57–37:50]
• Breast Cancer Storyline: [38:29–42:03]
• Teen vs Adult Readership: [42:42–45:36]
• Audiobook Details: [48:24–48:44]
• What’s Next for Nic: [49:06–49:31]

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Notable Moments

• Nic’s playful yet passionate calling out of book bans and stigmas.
• The candid look into both the business and emotional side of changing literary genres.
• Honest discussion about the realities and perceptions of sex work in fiction and in society.
• Nic’s collaboration with a feminist male editor.
• Introduction of the "thrillerary" genre term.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a behind-the-scenes look at both the thematic depth and the industry realities of making the leap from YA to adult fiction. Nic Stone shares not only her creative journey with Boomtown but also the threads of empowerment and resistance that run through her work—and her life. The conversation is packed with candid, funny, and insightful moments for readers and aspiring writers alike.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everyone, and welcome to Bad on Paper podcast. I'm Olivia Mentor.

[B]

And I'm Becca Freeman.

[A]

And today we have a really fun, fun interview.

[B]

Yeah, we're talking to Nic Stone, who is a very acclaimed YA author who just made her adult debut. The book came out yesterday. It's called Boomtown. It is a thriller set in an Atlanta strip club. And we talked to her about making the switch from YA to adult. The premise for this book and the thematic and social commentary within this book and what it has to say about race and about women and especially about sex workers. So very interesting conversation ahead. But before we get into that, Olivia, tell me your high.

[A]

My high and my low are one and the same, and that is that I am very busy. I am like, my days are packed. I am fully focused at my desk all day long. And it's one of those feelings where I'm like, I wish I maybe had a little less to do, but I also feel really, like, satisfied at the end of every day. And I feel like I'm making good progress and all my different projects and. And so, yeah, it's just this, like, I wish I was maybe completing everything.

[C]

On my to do list every day.

[A]

You know, but it's still good. It's still good. It's like the. The nicest iteration of my career, I guess. It's been nice and it's been a little bit tiring.

[B]

What is keeping you so busy at your desk if you feel comfortable sharing?

[A]

Well, I have the retreat coming up, which I'm really excited about. So there's a lot of little things, and I had a call with the hotel this past week, just planning menus, figuring out gift bags, that kind of stuff, ordering stuff. So there's that kind of little stuff. There's little podcast stuff here and there's. There's substack stuff. But the main thing is just managing all of the behind the scenes kind of promotional stuff that go into launching a book. So, like, gathering addresses from people and figuring out who I want to send the book to and sending notes to those people, pitching essays, places, writing those essays. I had to write a letter to, like, the booksellers that goes out with the book, I guess, this week. And that's sort of like another essay. So just like a lots of little things in. In that world. And then also constantly thinking about how can I promote the book? How can I do it in a way that's fun and interesting and authentic and still gets people to pre order the book? And then the biggest thing is that I'm really working on making significant progress on book three. And it's just the type of deep thinking work that we've talked about before where all my focus is in single chapters, single paragraphs, moving things around, trying to get things just right to make it as strong as it can possibly be. And I mean, that kind of work. Like, I could just spend eight hours doing just that. But. But I have other things to do. So it's just a balance of all of that. I'm happy and. And lucky to have to balance all of that. I've balanced other things I didn't want to balance before. So I'm trying to remember that.

[B]

Yeah, hearing your voice, it sounds. I don't know, it sounds more high than low.

[A]

Yeah. It's just that feeling when you get to the end of the day and you're like, I did something today that was meaningful. Not necessarily like changing the world, but it felt rewarding to me personally. And that's a really good feeling. What's your high?

[B]

My high is everything. I feel like I have birds chirping on my shoulder. We're having glorious fall weather in New York. Yesterday was the first day that it dipped into the 60s. It was wear a jacket weather, wear boots weather. I've had a great reading week, which we can talk about at the end of the episode. I hosted mahjong this week, which was really fun, and I got to cook for my friends. I was thinking about doing my roasted chicken for my 2025 goal, but timing didn't work out. I had a call at 4:30 and people were coming at 6:30, and I was like, I don't think that I can take on tackling a recipe I've never tried and having a stressful call in the middle. And then also I'm just. I'm vibing to the new Taylor album. I was a little bit slow to get on board, and the more I listen, the more I like it. I have woken up every day with one of these songs in my head and different songs. This morning it was canceled. I am just vibing to it. It feels good to have a soundtrack to, I don't know, an energetically great week. I'm going to the ballet tonight. Like, what isn't a high?

[A]

Wow, that's so many things.

[B]

That's great. I know.

[A]

And I'm with you on the Taylor album. Growing on me. I. Each song or some songs, I feel like have these moments that just. I keep wanting to go back to. And yeah, I'm right there with you. But I'm glad everything's going so well.

[B]

Yeah, I'm feeling great.

[A]

Any lows?

[B]

Well, I mean, there are a lot of things that I could be upset about in our current world, but I am choosing the smallest, pettiest thing because this is my platform and I'd like to use my voice about an injustice that I personally have experienced, which is that the Waterloo brand did not bring back their limited edition apple cider seltzer this year. And I am outraged. Outraged.

[A]

Do you know that for sure? Like, have you?

[B]

I do. I. Well, I 99% know that for sure. Somebody who follows me was also very invested in this and found a Reddit thread where somebody had emailed Waterloo and Waterloo responded to them saying they were not bringing it back.

[A]

Oh, this. So it's.

[B]

This is disappointing third hand knowledge, but I do feel pretty certain about it. So I bought Whole Foods has their own. I think it's called spiced Apple seltzer. I bought it this week. Olivia. It tastes like a candle. It's disgusting. It's all spice and no apple.

[A]

Yeah, that's not ideal. I did try the Olipop has a flavor that's like crisp apple that's soft.

[B]

Oh, I haven't seen that one.

[A]

It's called crisp apple. I got it the other day for my little treat beverage the grocery store and I really enjoyed it.

[B]

Oh, I'll have to look out for that. The other things that people have been recommending are the spindrift apple flavor, which I regret to inform you, I also hate. It tastes like Mott's apple cider. I'm happy for you if you like it, but I do not. And then people said Trader Joe's has an apple seltzer, but it, it is more Granny Smith than apple cider.

[A]

Yeah, that's a different experience. Well, you do have options to explore still. But I am. I'm sorry for your loss.

[B]

Thank you so much. And Waterloo, if you are listening, Big Seltzer, bring this back. Give the people what they want. I am the people.

[A]

I mean, clearly there is demand even beyond you.

[B]

Yes, it was a perfect flavor.

[A]

I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe just, I don't know, maybe they.

[B]

All have long Covid and lost their taste buds and their minds and are poor. Poor corporate governance.

[A]

Listen to her. This is a serious issue, Waterloo. Well, before we get into this interview, let's take a quick ad break. This episode is sponsored by Quince. Cooler days call for layers that last. And Quince is my go to for Quality essentials that won't blow my budget. But you know what Quince also has? I did not realize this. It's new to me. First of all, they have candles.

[B]

I didn't know that.

[A]

Second of all, yes, I didn't either. They do. I have a pumpkin cardamom one that is so delicious smelling that I posted a photo of it immediately before I even burned it, which I have since burned it. And it's great. In the BFF group we have. It smells so perfect. You know, I love a fall candle. But also Quince has perfume. And I got the amber Noir perfume, which has notes of jasmine. My absolute favorite in perfume. Espresso and vanilla. Ooh. And it is divine. It's not overly sweet. It has this, like, sort of muskiness that's really nice. Anyway, it's perfect for fall and winter. I love it. I'm obsessed with it. I had no idea you heard it here first.

[B]

On my end, I'm obsessed with their Mongolian cashmere T shirts. I have two of them. I have a gray one and I have a black one. I've never owned a cashmere or, like a sweater T shirt before, and I feel like it just lends something really elevated to an otherwise more casual outfit. I am wearing these on repeat. I actually got tomato sauce on one of them the other night when I was hosting Mah Jong and I took it to the dry cleaner and the dry cleaner was like, I don't know if we're going to be able to get this out. And immediately in my head I was like, well, then I'll just buy a new one because I cannot live without this sweater T shirt now. So that is my pitch. But you should also know that because Quint's partners directly with top tier ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, they deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. It's the kind of wardrobe upgrade that feels smart, stylish and effortless.

[A]

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[B]

We are so excited to have Nic Stone with us today. She is the number one New York Times bestselling author of Dear Martin. A Spelman College graduate, Nick lives in Atlanta with her family and Boomtown is her first adult novel. Welcome, Nick.

[A]

Welcome.

[C]

Thank you for having me. It's Wild times out here.

[B]

I am so excited to be talking to you. I can't remember where I first heard about this book, if it was in a most anticipated list or maybe it was the COVID reveal.

[A]

But.

[B]

But I saw it. And knowing your prolific background in YA and middle grade and seeing the pitch for this book, I was like, we gotta talk to her. There is a story here.

[C]

I love it.

[B]

So I guess maybe to start off, catch everyone up, can you tell us a little bit about your author origin story up until right before this book?

[C]

So, you know what's funny? I always have people that ask, like, have you been writing your whole life? I've not been writing my whole life. I started writing when I was 27. I'm like, 40 and, like, so it hasn't been that long. But the more that I write, the more I realize I probably always wanted to. I just didn't have examples of people who looked like me, women specifically who looked like me, who were writing the kinds of things that I like to read. So I got started in children's books largely because, like, when I've decided to start writing, that's the era of life that was beginning to make sense. Like, adolescence. And what was happening in adolescence was starting to make sense to me when I was in my late 20s. So when I sat down to write, that's what came out. And I think it was also just kind of the fulfillment of things that I wish I'd had when I was younger. And then I realized, hey, we are 39. We could totally do this for grownups too. You know, we like reading stuff for grownups. We could also write it. So I get banned a lot in the children's literature space. So this is my, like, big middle finger that's like, oh, okay, sure. Ban my books about kids.

[A]

I'll just write about strippers.

[B]

Yeah, I'll give you something to ban.

[C]

Yeah, this won't be in high schools anyway, so good luck.

[A]

Well, speaking of strippers, can you give us the pitch for Boomtown for anyone who hasn't had it on their radar quite yet?

[C]

So Boomtown is. There's a TV show called P. Valley that's about a strip club in Mississippi, and everybody knows Gillian Flynn's Gone Girl. So it's P. Valley meets Gone Girl, and it follows an erotic dancer who decides to investigate after two of her colleagues go missing within, like, a year of each other. And, you know, I really tackle a lot in this book. It's wild because my editor and I have been talking a lot about how it gets pitched as a thriller, but it's not like a classic thriller at all. It has the pacing, but it doesn't have the kind of formulaic beats, right? So, like, the beauty of genre when it comes to fiction is that if something falls into genre, it follows a very specific formula, if you will. And this does not. It's actually. It's got more of a literary bent, interestingly enough. So I was really interested in a couple of things. First, when I was a little girl, my father was a police officer, and he was in charge of the permits unit in the county where he lived, which meant that he was the person who had to fingerprint and permit all of the erotic dancers in this particular county. So when I would go to the. I'd be at the station with my dad and all of these, like, really hot women, you know, all I'm seeing is this, like, beautiful woman who looks like a Barbie because her boobs probably aren't real. And they have these, like, itty bitty waist. And they just. They just were fascinating beings to me. And they were always so sweet to me. Right? So I get older, I find out what they were there for. And then in my early 20s, I was a personal trainer. And when I was a personal trainer, I had two clients who were erotic dancers. One of them's name was Lyric. And Lyric just really left an impression on me because, you know, I feel like sex workers in general and specifically erotic dancers get this really weird kind of stigmatized rap that is completely unwarranted. And there's almost this notion that it's okay to dehumanize these women because of what they decide to do for a living. And I just think that's complete bullshit. So when I decided I was gonna sit down and write this book, it was around the time that Gabby Petito went missing. And, like, everybody was, like, up in arms about it. And I just. I got to thinking about the number of black women who go missing and nobody looks for them. So it was like a bunch of things colliding at the same time. But it was a blast to write, truly.

[A]

Okay, so you've been so successful with YA and middle grade markets like we talked about, and you mentioned how you thought, well, I'm 39 now. Time to write for adults. Can you take us through the evolution of that decision? Was it just like one day you're like, yeah, I'm ready to do this, or was there more of a sort of thinking about it for a long time before you sat down and started writing Type of process.

[C]

I love this question. I think about everything for a long time before I sit down and start writing. Like, I'll get an idea for a book, and it won't be a book for at least three or four years. And it's not because it takes me a long time to write it. It just my ideation process. Like, I have a. I have a composition notebook for literally every project I've ever done. And each project has its own notebook. And I will just jot things in a notebook for years as I'm working on other things. So this one, I think I actually got the. The idea for it originally 2019ish. Like, it was like, a while ago. Eventually I knew I was going to write. Oh, I want to write all the things, right? Like, I've yet to sell a picture book, but that's also on my to do list. And so when I decided it was time to write it, I just jumped right in there. But going from writing young adult to writing adult was absolutely like, there was a steep learning curve because there are so many things that I just don't have to do in the adult space. I can just write for the sake of entertaining. Like, there doesn't have to be a lesson. I don't have to worry about it landing in a curriculum. I don't have to make sure that things are tied up neatly at the end and that I'm not, like, emotionally abandoning my young readers. Like, there are so many things that I just don't have to consider. So it took a minute for me to learn that I could just be grown when I was writing this book. But once I did, man, I can't wait to write the next one.

[B]

And you're in this interesting place because you already have an agent and a publisher. Although this is being published at a different publishing house than your YA books. And there are probably a lot of expectations from both them and readers about what a Nic Stone book is. Because what was your team's reaction when you came to them and you said, hey, I have this book about erotic dancers I want to do next? How does that sound to you?

[C]

You know what's interesting is that there's, like, not as much crossover as people would think, right? Like, when I think about moving between age, because genre is one thing, but, like, moving between age brackets, it's a totally different ballgame. Like when I first started doing middle grade, like, obviously my young adult readers aren't going to go then pick up a middle school book, right? So I had to completely build A new audience. And honestly, it's very here. Even the idea of your young adult readership crossing over and reading your adult books, like, a lot of them won't, because they're used to reading a very specific type of book. So I am very grateful to have an agent who is down for whatever, as long as it's good. Like, she's not gonna let me put trash out here, but she's like, cool. You wanna do adult, do it. You wanna do nonfiction, do it. You wanna do a short story collection, go for it. As long as it's good, we can rock with it. But there is the through line of, like, the Nic Stone book is going to be very voicey, and, like, there's always going to be, like, a very hefty narrative voice. Like, you hear the character as they are. Well, at least as they are in my head. But they sound like a person. When you read the book, there's always going to be some element of, like, embedded social commentary, lots of subtext, and there's always going to be black people. Right? So those are the things that are most important to me in all of the work that I do. And I think, personally that it does carry through to boomtown. But I am excited about building this new audience. I'm scared, but I'm also, like, kind of excited about it.

[A]

Did you feel any sort of pressure moving into this new space where you have to build a new audience? But was it more freedom, I guess, or was it more like. This has to be kind of like the experience of debuting with your first novel ever? You know, did it feel like that all over again? Or was it a different feeling?

[C]

It's interesting. So when it comes to, like, audience facing, it definitely feels like a debut. I'm starting over, and I feel significantly freer because I don't have all these rules I have to follow in this space. Y' all grown people who are reading this book are adults. So I don't have to worry about content. I don't have to worry about what kind of language I'm. You like, you know, obviously you don't want to use harmful language. You don't want to use slurs, et cetera. But there isn't this hyper fixation on language because there are no gatekeepers here. This is like the consumer who buys this is the consumer that it was written for. Unlike in children's literature, where you have a teacher or a librarian or a parent typically buying the books, so there is significantly more freedom. Definitely feel like I'm starting over when I'm like, with regard to, like, facing outward and facing the audience, but I do not at all feel like I'm starting over from the publishing side of things. Like, the publisher has been just immaculate about using my existing stuff to try and boost things as much as possible. So actually, it's been pretty cool. Like, it's been pretty cool coming into a space with it in the mind of the publisher that, like, oh, no, she's got a solid track record, and it makes it a little less pressure y, if you will, when it comes to facing the audience. Like, it's okay if I'm debuting to them. I have a really solid team behind me who believes in me and what I'm doing, and that's pretty cool.

[A]

Yeah, it's kind of a nice mix of, like, fresh start freedom, but also a lot of support that sometimes traditional, like, debuts have to prove. So I can imagine it's, like, just creatively stimulating in all the ways.

[C]

Oh, it's the best. I'm. I'm genuinely having a blast when it.

[A]

Comes to the research process for this book. Did you do a lot? Obviously, we know some of the inspiration behind it from your childhood and your work as a personal trainer with those exotic dancers. But did you kind of go even deeper into the world as you were writing this?

[C]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Writing off my strip club visits was absolutely delightful. It's research. I was doing research. So thank you for approving this research that I did for this book. It's the smartest thing I've ever done in my life, if we're being honest. But I had quite a number of adventures working on the research for this book from even just talking to dancers just who are fully clothed. And also, you are sitting in my lap with nothing on telling me about your life. Oh, all right. Here we are. Thank you for telling me that this is so much more pleasant to do for me than some of the grody men that come in here. I am thrilled that you feel safe here. It's wonderful. Like, it was a lot of fun doing this research. Also really enlightening. Right. Like, I will say that a lot of. A lot of the women that I had the pleasure and privilege of speaking to, it's not even that they surprised me, but more that, like, as I mentioned earlier, women who use their bodies to make a living catch a really bad rap. And, like, it's stupid for that to be the case. Right. Like, for me, this is a book that is not only about power and privilege, but it's also about, like, Self empowerment and living in the body that belongs to you and taking ownership of that body in spite of circumstances that tell you you're not allowed to. Right. Like, there's so much in it. And a lot of those are things that I took from having these conversations.

[B]

Were dancers wary of talking to you? I remember listening to an interview with Rufi Thorpe, who did Margo's Got Money Troubles a few years ago, which is about Only Fans. And she was saying, and, you know, this is over the Internet versus in person. They can see you in front of them. But she was saying it was really hard to get OnlyFans creators to talk to her and to, like, share their experience.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, no, not at all. Like, you know, the difference between this and OnlyFans is that for a lot of Only Fans users, they keep themselves anonymous. Right. So it's like, we don't want to be identified to the public. It kind of defeats the public purpose of having this Only Fans thing where only certain people have access. They loved telling me things. They loved having the space to talk. Because I feel. Not only. I feel I've witnessed. We talk a lot about objectification, but people don't think very deeply about what it actually means to be objectified. Right. And yes, absolutely, a woman is at full liberty to put herself in a position where she uses her body as an object to make a living. And also, that does something to the psyche. Right. And so they're aware of both realities. So having the opportunity to talk openly without any sort of fear of recourse, having somebody who actually cared how they felt. Every single dancer I talked to was so kind and open and wanted to tell me everything.

[B]

That's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to turn to the meat of this book, the actual story. So one of the core relationships in it is between Lyric and Lucky. And Lyric narrates the present chapters as she tries to find out what happened to Lucky, and Lucky narrates the past chapters in the lead up to her disappearance. And I thought this was such a creative structure. And I'm curious if this is how it always was or how you landed on this.

[C]

Yeah, no, totally. This is how it always was. So, like, I don't know how to write a straightforward book. I've never succeeded at it. And I. I mean that.

[B]

Like, I'm learning that about myself, too.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. Like, Boomtown is book number 16. And, like, none of the other ones were just, like, super straightforward. Like, even the ones where it's like, we need a linear narrative, there's Got to be something in it. It's got to have letters or it's got to have journal entries or pictures or something. Like, I need some kind of something that breaks up the monotony of just words after words after words on the page for me. Because I don't really like to read. Like, I will read a book that's pure prose with nothing interesting. But, like, one of my favorite books of all time is A Visit from the Goon Squad by Jennifer Egan with that whole PowerPoint presentation in that book. Like that Blue. Like when I read that book just before I started writing and it just blew my world open with regard to what's possible when it comes to telling a story. So there were always going to be at least three perspectives in Boomtown. I think I landed at five. And there was always going to be like, what's happening in the present and what's happening in the past. I am a hardcore outliner. Like, I do not function. I don't know how to function without an outline. So that was really helpful in keeping things straight. And I'm actually really glad to hear you say that you, like, felt like it was like a creative way of approaching things and that you liked it because I will say it's a love hate thing. Either you're going to like and think the way that it's written is cool, or you're going to be completely thrown by it because you're not used to reading a book that bounces back and forth between present and past with two different narrators. Right. Like, this is what I mean by not being a traditional thriller.

[B]

No, I really liked it. I feel like sometimes in a thriller it can feel like the narrative voice is holding out on you because they're trying to hold back reveals of things that they would already know. But to keep it from you, the reader, to make just the story unfold in a more compelling way. And in this way it feels really honest because Lyric has secrets. But, you know, she really doesn't know what happened to Lucky and vice versa. Lucky doesn't know what's going to happen with her. So it felt really honest.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I didn't feel like I was being manipulated the way that sometimes I can feel in a thriller.

[C]

Thank you, girl. Because I don't be trying to manipulate. I don't like manipulation.

[A]

Can I ask how you balance the like, really detailed outlining with the non traditional sort of structure or point of views? Because, like, I look at outliners, like, I'm like, how does your brain work? How do you do that. And I'm even more fascinated when you're going with a, I guess, back and forth type of structure. What does that look like? Like your process.

[C]

So for me, there are two different stories happening, right? They're all obviously a part of the same story, but there's a story happening in the present and there's a story happening in the past. So I need to know what the story in the present is, and I need to know what the story in the past is. And then I break the outline down into this needs to happen, and then this thing from the past needs to happen in order to progress the plot so that the next thing that happens in the present makes sense. Like, it's like a puzzle. And I love puzzles. I love doing puzzles. Like, plot puzzles are my most favorite thing. I'm working on this, like, top secret project right now, and I spent the entire day just literally in a document typing questions and trying to figure out how to answer them. Like, that part of the creative process when it comes to writing is my absolute favorite. Like, making the story work. And then there's that moment when, like, something clicks and you're like, that's it. That's what it is. I love that. I live for it and it will keep me writing.

[B]

I wish my brain worked that way. I haven't, I haven't. I haven't locked into outline brain, but, you know, we'll see.

[C]

So do you just, like, spill it out and then fix it?

[B]

No, I get too excited. I try to outline, and then I get too excited and I have to start writing. And then I usually end up at a corner, and then I'm like, oh, okay, now we have to figure out how to get. How to get out of here. But it would make. It would be so much easier if there was an outline up front.

[C]

And see, I'm the opposite. I love outlining, drafting. I'm just like, oh, God, I have to write it now. Okay. The outline, for me is, in a sense, a draft. Like a. It's like a story draft. It's not a narrative draft, a book draft, but it is a draft of story. And then you just kind of have to, like, flesh it out. So you give me the excitement to start writing, and I will give you the outlining.

[B]

When our powers combine, we can be the perfect writer.

[C]

We sure can.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Let's take a quick ad break.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Well, you already told us that, you know, this book isn't necessarily a straight down the line thriller and it's not a clear cut detective novel either because there's not necessarily like a clear crime or a murder that this starts with. But Lyric starts looking into what happened to Lucky based partly on her own guilt and then partly on just like a bad gut feeling. And I saw another interview you did with Cosmo and you said that to you this was a story, I'm paraphrasing here, that this was a story about women doing the best they can with bad choices. And I wanted to hear you talk a little bit more about that.

[C]

I remember being, I was probably 20 or 21 and I remember where I was sitting when I heard somebody say everyone that you meet is doing the best they can with what they have. I hated, I hated it when I first heard it. And then I, I took a minute and I tried to think about what does that actually mean? Frequently we look at people who seem to have a lot and they do things that are harmful to people. And so if I move from the presumption that everyone is doing the best they can with what they have, it sets a completely different picture of all of the people that I meet. It also helps me understand decision making in a totally different way. Right. So all of these women, every single woman in this book has some kind of hardship that they have to deal with. Like every single one, including the super rich one. Like she also Got stuff she. She got baggage she has to deal with, too. And so for me, it was really important to show not only, yes, they're making these decisions, but why they're making these decisions. I think a lot of the time, when it comes to compassion and empathy, frequently people struggle to identify with each other and to understand each other because we're not willing to dig down into the reason why a person is making a decision. So for me, making it crystal clear on the page, this character thinks this way and moves this way because this thing and this thing and this thing happened to them. Like, those. Those things were incredibly important to me. And my hope is that this is a book that people read and it. Not only with regard to erotic dancers, because, honestly, that's like a bit of a MacGuffin. Like, at its core, Boomtown is really about people being people and, like I just said, doing the best they can with what they have. So my hope is that after people read this book, they'll be willing to think about what other people do maybe a little bit differently and, like, a little bit more openly.

[B]

Yeah, it's so much more complex. Like, it's like on the surface, if you ask somebody, like, would you do this thing, yes or no. Like, you might gut instinct, say one way or the other. And then when you kind of read below the surface and you understand the lead up to it and then also kind of what their options are, you're like, oh, well, makes sense. Yeah, right, totally.

[C]

Like, there's. There's so many variables that we cannot account for. And that. That's something that I really. I really wish more people would just be open to, like, thinking about. Right. Like, there are so many variables that you cannot account for and so be compassionate because.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You never know what decision you would make in a given situation.

[B]

Yeah. So you were talking to us before about kind of the objectification of sex workers in general and then specifically erotic dancers. And one thing I noticed when I was reading this book that I really appreciated was in the scenes in the club, how centered the book is on the women. With few exceptions, there are cases where, you know, the interactions with the men do kind of get deeper into scene, but for the most part, it really felt like the men were kind of this, like, nameless, faceless mass of patrons and that the power really remained with the women. And there were times where their interior monologue, you can hear that they were scared or they didn't like something that was happening, but, like, they were like, okay, I'm gonna deal with this. And I want to hear about, like, what your goals and, like, what you were thinking about when you were writing these club scenes. Cause I could see them going so many different ways of, like, you know, write a scene in a strip club that's, like, sexy and, you know, I don't know. I want to hear kind of how you were thinking about that.

[C]

Yeah, look, I will first admit it took a minute to get there. Right. This book helped to uncover a lot of internalized misogyny, to be completely honest. And it also helped me to uncover a lot of things that I thought I had to deal with or, like, women have to deal with that we don't actually have to deal with. Like, there's a level of empowerment that women are discouraged from embodying by individuals who would prefer for the status quo to remain as it is. And it took some work for me to push past a lot of the messaging that I got even as, like, a queer black woman. Like, don't be too loud. Don't be too angry. Don't feel yourself too much. Like, there are so many things that I had to rework and rethink through. And so, like, shout out number one to my editor, Yadan Israel, at Simon and Schuster. He really, really put. Pushed me to dig really deep, get rid of all of the stuff that would put the women in any sort of position where they were not in control of themselves and of their mindsets. And he pushed me to really clean that stuff up. And then I had an Incredible beta reader, Dr. Chanel Craft Tanner. She's, like, the head of the women's studies department at the University of Virginia. And so this was a super collaborative process. And having them kind of like, we all had these different things in mind, bringing them all together. We were able to create this thing where it is super important to me that when people read this book, they recognize that every single woman who makes a conscious decision to engage in sex work, she knows what she's doing, right? To an extent. Like, yes, obviously, there are exceptions to every rule. But, like, most women who decide that they are going to do a specific thing, they're deciding that they're going to do it. I'm not talking about women who are being trafficked. I'm not talking about. There's a whole other sector of sex workers who are not sex workers. They are victims of sexual assaults, victims of sex trafficking. That's a whole other sector. I'm talking about the women who are like, I need to make some money for college. I'm a go dance they have a different way of moving, a different way of thinking about things. And I want people to recognize that at the end of the day, though, things happen to us that we are completely not in control of. What we can control is how we think about things, the stories we tell ourselves about things. And my hope is that as people read Lyric Lucky and Charmed's story, they will feel empowered in that and they will recognize that, like, oh, yeah, these women are in this space, but that doesn't make them victims automatically. Do they get victimized? Yes. Would they identify as a victim? Absolutely not. They're not going to just hand their power over. And that is something that's super important.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, this is also interesting, but the thing about what you just said that kind of stopped me is that you have a male editor.

[A]

I do.

[B]

I would never have guessed that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

He's everything. He's amazing.

[B]

That makes me kind of hopeful.

[C]

Oh, yeah. He's the goatist of goats.

[B]

I love that.

[C]

I love that I have a male editor who is absolutely a feminist and who really cares about black culture. He cares a lot about black people. And those things are very important, especially in the world as it is and in this. This specific, like, space, this novel space. It's super important.

[B]

Yeah. I thought it was so interesting that there is a plotline in. In this about a breast cancer diagnosis which juxtaposes so perfectly against the characters. And I'm not gonna say which character to maybe, like, keep it a little spoiler free against the character's background as a dancer and that, like, her livelihood is literally being taken away from her at the same time that her body is betraying her. And I wanted to talk a little bit about that and kind of how that came into the story. I thought it was something I'd never thought about. About, you know, she didn't want to stop dancing, but she had her livelihood taken away from her in a way that I would not expect. Is that something that, like, you heard from one of the dancers or how did this come into this?

[C]

What's interesting is next October, I have a middle grade novel coming out about a little black girl with cancer. And a lot of this is just me being irritated by the number of people who seem to be under the impression that African American people don't get cancer unless it's, like, a colon cancer. Like, there's like, a type of sympathy that I see shared with one sector of society when they are dealing with some sort of cancer and a completely different type of energy when it Comes to people who look like me. Right? And a lot of it has to do with dehumanization. So for me, it was really important that there be a thing where this character is shown to be as human as possible. What is more human than some random disease deciding to overtake your body and completely wrecking your life? Right. Like, there are so many ways that a person can be thwarted, and making a decision to do a certain profession does not protect you from things that you can't control. So the cancer diagnosis, a part of it, like, she always. That was always going to be there.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

You know, when it comes to inspiration for these things, these characters, just a lot of the time, they kind of appear in my head fully formed. But I was fascinated. I've always been fascinated by the type of breast cancer that this character develops. And it just made sense for me as a writer to make sure it's clear that these women's lives are very complex. Right. Like, there's a breast cancer diagnosis. There is a person who at one point gives a kid up for adoption, and then at another point decides to not do that again. Like, there are so many things that happen in women's lives that we are grappling with that frequently just go undiscussed because it's like, okay, well, we need to focus on. I didn't want this. Like I said, the dancing is. It's a MacGuffin. Like, the stripper part of it is a MacGuffin. Like,' it sets up a world, and it creates a power dynamic. But these are women. These are people. They're human. They have all of these things going on, and they have to figure out how to survive them. And that is at the core of the story.

[B]

I thought it was so interesting. At one point, this character says something in her head to the effect of, like, well, it sucks because, like, I make so much less money now. And it was like, not, I get to stop being a stripper. It was like, oh, no, this blows. And I, you know, not even just the I feel alienated in my own body, but, like, it made me think about it in a totally different way, that I kind of hadn't been thinking about her character until she actually said that in her mind. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like, what am I going to do now that I don't have money to pay my bills? That's the thing. I have a. I actually have a dancer friend who, when I first met her, she was dancing to get herself through her master's program in Social work. And like I saw her randomly, like I randomly ran into her probably three or four months ago and like she was like, yeah, social work didn't pay very much. And so she's, she's doing her thing, right? And I think that's okay. It's fine for that to be what you're concerned about, if that's what you decide to be concerned about.

[A]

So going back a little bit to finding readers, obviously we know that there are a lot of adults that are YA readers and so are you finding that those adults are following you into your adult fiction or is it truly like we're starting with a whole new audience?

[C]

I mean, I don't really know yet. Like, so what I will say so far, a lot of the feedback that I've gotten is from like teachers and librarians who teach my young adult books to their students or they hand their, my young adult books to their students or my middle grade stuff that are students. And you know, not that I don't trust their judgment but like they kind of just like already love me, so I'm like, okay girl, but you, you already like me, so you biased. Like I need to hear from somebody who maybe doesn't like the stuff that I create. I'd be curious to hear what they think of this. But yeah, for the most part I have no idea yet who is going to turn out to be the largest audience for this book. Honestly, it will not surprise me if it becomes a thing in high schools. And I say that because there are a lot of. I read up when I was in high school, like I remember I had middle school, I read up. So I do think that there will be some high school kids, some girls specifically who are, who get really into this. Like I just have a hunch about it and I kind of hope it happens just because I want people to read what they want to read. And I loved reading my like Terry McMillan and Danielle Steele books when I was probably too young to be reading them. It's not like most of it just went over my head, right? Like the throbbing member thing. I had no idea what that was. So, okay, I'm just into the story. So we'll see, we'll see how it goes.

[B]

I will be so curious. One of my best friends has a 15 year old daughter and she's gotten really into reading, especially since the pandemic. And I'm always like, take, take a photo of her, her bookshelves. Like I want to see what, what type of stuff she's reading. And he sent Me a photo. And it was like, Nick, it was all smut. And I was like, I'm not going to sell her out like that.

[C]

But I was like, the Sarah J. Maas series that overtook the adult bestseller list a couple years ago and over the past year. Yeah, that book was a YA bestseller for like years. Those books, that series blew that YA list out for years. And I remember going to an event for one of those books and it was like packed out with like middle school girls.

[A]

And I was just like, I had no idea.

[C]

Okay, right. They essentially, they repackaged it as an adult series. And honey, that's cause the teenagers were done. They were like, oh, we read these already.

[A]

I mean, if there's one demographic that every author should want to just have in their pocket, it's teen girls. Because I don't think there's anyone more passionate, anyone who's going to spread the word better. So a whole word. Fingers crossed for you that it hits with them because.

[C]

Thank you. I sure hope it does too. It would be amazing.

[B]

Well, one thing I'm wondering is, how is the marketing different for an adult book versus a YA book? Because you were talking before about having to market to like gatekeepers of librarians, teachers, parents, versus now you're talking directly to the reader. Has it been different in terms of like where you're showing up or what you're doing, or. It generally feels the same.

[C]

I mean, it definitely has been different. Like, there's. I'm seeing it pop up in like roundups and things. And that's been wild to see. Just because I'm like, oh, like there's just. There's no, like, rails. Right. I feel like in, in the children's literature space or all of there's a box that the marketing fits in. And here is like, oh, no, no. We going, we're going to advertise in GQ and we're going to advertise. Let's do an interview with Playboy. Like, And I'm like, okay, right? Like, there's so. It's just, it's just a totally different space. I don't understand marketing at all.

[A]

So.

[C]

So I understand branding, but like, marketing, I'm like, what is this? So we're just, we're going to see how this goes. I don't know. Book marketing in general is so different. I've never seen a commercial for a book. Have, have either of you, like been watching TV and you see a commercial for like a book?

[B]

I've never seen a book commercial. But you know what? I think is fascinating. In London, on like the tube, there's always subway ads for books, which I've never seen here.

[C]

And I've never seen a billboard for a book. I've seen it in New York on the New York City subway. Oh yeah, I have seen some. But like once in a while.

[B]

Once in a while.

[C]

And it's always a publisher initiative. But like, I've never seen a billboard about a book. Like the ways that people traditionally advertise things. I don't even think I've ever heard an audio ad for a book while like listening to a podcast or something. Right. Like, I have no idea. Other than bookish websites, we do them.

[B]

But it's so much less than I would have expected for like, we have a podcast about books, we talk to people who like reading. This would seem like a very obvious place for publishers to want to advertise. And you know, we, we definitely have some, but I would think it would be wall to wall book ads and it's not.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I'm like, I need to try and tap into this. And I say that as a person who I listen to so many. I'm like a podcast audio love, love learning things through my ears and engaging in story through my ears. And I'm like, there's got to be a way to use some of the traditional marketing avenues to market books because why wouldn't you. Right? Like, if you can sell me a hamburger on tv, why wouldn't you be able to sell me a book?

[B]

Yeah. And wait, this must have a very cool audiobook. Is it like a full cast audiobook?

[C]

Yes. So I mean, it's like there are five narrators in the book and five narrators on the audiobook. I do one of the POVs.

[B]

Oh my gosh. Which one do you do?

[C]

I can't tell you.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Because it would be spoilery. But yeah, there is one that I do and had a blast. Had a blast doing it.

[B]

Oh my gosh, I love that.

[A]

That is amazing. Many talents. So try. Well, I know you peppered in earlier talk of a super secret project which I guess you can't tell us about, but is there anything that's next for you that you can talk about? Should we be expecting more adult novels? Are you going to be going back and forth?

[C]

Definitely. Definitely doing all of it. Like, this isn't a transition for me. It's an expansion. There's one coming out in the summer that's a ya and then there's one coming out in the fall that's a middle grade. The next adult book is 2027 and there will be another adult thriller. Ready? Thrillerary. It's like a thrillerary novel. We're just going to make up words. Let's do that.

[A]

That's fair.

[C]

Thriller but it's literary thrillerary.

[B]

You're an author. If not you, who's going to make up the words?

[C]

And we'll morphemes. It's all about morphemes.

[B]

Well, we are so excited for our listeners to check this book out which comes out when this episode drops. It will have come out yesterday so it comes out October 14th. Nick, can you tell people where they can find more from you on the Internet if they want to keep up with everything that you have going on?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

So I have become very curmudgeony in my 40 age, really social media wise. I'm really mostly just on Instagram and I'm at Nick Stone and website is nickstone.info Amazing. Keeping it real simple, you know.

[A]

Thank you so much. From bestselling author Wendy Walker comes a gripping new psychological thriller with a spectacular twist. Don't miss Walker's new Audible original, the Room Next Door, a tightly crafted, ever twisting mystery told from three points of view. Starring acclaimed narrator and fan favorite Julia Whelan alongside Elizabeth Evans and Bebe Wood. The tagline for this Audible original is they were best friends forever until the night one of them disappeared. Which is a great pitch if you ask me.

[C]

Ooh.

[B]

So in 2010, Brooke, Carrie and Eve were inseparable. But on the 4th of July, Eve vanished and her case was never solved. Brooke moved away, but Carrie couldn't let go, her obsession driving her to become the chief of police. Now, 15 years later, Justice Carrie is about to close Eve's case for good. An anonymous call provides a chilling new lead and within days a man's body is hauled in by a fishing boat. His murder is linked to a hotel a few miles away which where the guest in the room next door was none other than Brooke.

[A]

Together their stories unravel a web of lies, betrayals and long buried secrets that lead to the shocking truth of what happened to Eve. The room next door Three friends, two timelines, one deadly truth. Go to audible.com the room next door and start listening today. Well, let's get into some n matter. Kick us off and tell us what you're obsessed with.

[B]

I'm obsessed with a podcast episode Shonda Rhimes was on Call Her Daddy this week. If you have listened here for a while, you know that I am Obsessed with Shonda Rhimes, who is the creator of Grey's Anatomy and Scandal and Bridgerton and the Residents and so many other shows. I think she's such a badass and like so compelling. And so I was obsessed with this episode. I actually had this thought that I was like, because I listened to it the first time and I was like, maybe I'll. Maybe I'll watch the YouTube video this weekend of it. It was fascinating. It was about the 10 year anniversary of a book she wrote called the Year of Yes, where she basically challenged herself to say yes to things she would otherwise say no to for a year. So it's partially about that, but it's also, there's so much great behind the scenes, like fodder about Greys, about Scandal, about Hollywood in general. And I think she's so interesting because she's had such a great career, is I think the top paid showrunner in Hollywood. But there's also a vulnerability about her and about like experiencing imposter syndrome. And like she's a very real speaker, you know, like she's not like in an ivory castle where she's like, well, I'm just here like wiping my butt with a hundred dollar bills and you know.

[A]

Yeah, I've seen a couple clips of this interview and it looks very interesting. I'm not, I'm a casual watcher of these shows, but it seems great.

[B]

Highly recommend. What about you? What are you obsessed with?

[A]

I got a floor lamp from Wayfair, which is a sponsor of the podcast and full disclosure, they did send us a gift card, but I've been sitting on it for a while and I finally went on because I need a very specific. I needed a floor lamp for this corner, my reading corner, and I needed it to like, you know, kind of hang over the chair. And I feel like these are really hard to find, but I found such a cute one for such a reasonable price that's like very interesting looking that I enjoy. That I think looks so much more expensive and it arrived in like one day. This sounds like an ad, but this is not. This. This episode is not sponsored by way here. I am just genuinely excited about this lamp and it has this like really warm amber bulb. So it's just really nice. I have the fire next to me, I have the lamp. I have my book. I haven't finished anything this week, actually, not to transition well.

[B]

I finished two things, so I have enough for both of us.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Well, tell us after my reading. Not quite a rut, but I've Just been very slow at reading. I feel like I finally turned the corner. So I finished the Idiot by Elif Batuman last week. I loved this. This came out in 2017. It's semi autobiographical, I believe, and it's about a Harvard freshman who has kind of lived a sheltered existence. She's Turkish American and she's kind of like settling into college life. And she. It's set in the 90s. She ends up in this email exchange with this older guy in her Russian class. And she's kind of in love with him, but he has a girlfriend and it's like, what's gonna happen? This book was so interesting because I feel like it is so incredibly singular. I read it because I started getting Elif's newsletter and I really thought her voice in the newsletter was interesting. So I was wondering what her fiction voice was like. And it's the same. It's very conversational. The book is almost like all these little vignettes strung together. It's very meandering like that. It's not as if it has, like, a strong Pacey plot, but I never knew what was going to happen, like, from scene to scene. Like, it was very. Just like, oh, oh, okay. I guess I would maybe say it's Sally Rooney. Ish. If you like Sally Rooney, you might like this. I feel like I learned Russian even though I didn't learn a word of Russian. She's taking a Russian class and so you hear a lot about that. I don't know. I really loved this and I feel like the fall vibes, because of it's a campus novel, felt very, very right for this time of year.

[A]

Yeah, this is one of those books that, like, I would see around and I don't know, sometimes there's a certain brand of literary book where you're like, maybe it's about something, but maybe it's about nothing. And I'm not really sure what in that group of things it's about. So it's great to have some context. I have seen this so many places.

[B]

Also, it was a Pulitzer Prize finalist.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Which is very interesting when you read it because it's not. It's not a dense. It is dense, but it's not. It feels chatty.

[A]

Overly dense.

[B]

Yeah, it feels chatty. So I read that and then. Oh, I read a book that you had previously read and recommended. I read the Force of Such Beauty by Barbara Borland and I was sent this book in a launch mailer. My friends Emma Benshoff and Ashley McGee started a part substack newsletter, part book events company called Lit Girl. And when they launched, they sent a little PR box, and this was the book that was in it.

[A]

And this is also how I got the book, by the way.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And I don't know, I was like, I'm not going to make it to this. It just. Thank you, but I have too much on my tbr. And it sat in my giveaway pile for a year, probably. And every time I almost give it away, I'm like, well, no, I. I might want to read this. And especially since you gave it such a good review, I've been even more compelled by it. So I haven't given it away. So finally this month, I was like, okay, up or out. Like, we're either reading this or we're getting rid of it. So I started it on Friday night. Olivia. I felt addicted to this book. It was fascinating. Also, I cannot believe that it only has. It has less than 3,000 Goodreads ratings, which tells me that it's not been incredibly popular. It has great star ratings, but, like, the number. The quantity of ratings is fairly low. And I'm like, why aren't more people talking about this book? And it was interesting timing because I read it the same day that Life of a Showgirl came out, and I feel like there is a overlap between those two pieces of art in that Life of a Showgirl is. I don't know that it actually delivers on this promise, but it's. It's about the behind the scenes, like, the less idealized, less glamorous parts of being a showgirl. And this book is about a female marathon runner, Olympian who goes on to become a princess of a small European principality. And being a princess drives her slowly mad. And it is so well done. It has so much to say about kind of the dreams that we culturally force upon young girls and what the reality of that actually would be like. And, oh, my God, it was fascinating.

[A]

I'm glad you liked it. The world building in this book is wild, too. Like, it's a fake country. That feels very real.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But also, I feel like this book is fascinating because it had a little bit of a feeling, like, where you expect it to zig, it zags. It's creative and different and fresh, but you're right, like, addictive. This was on my shortlist for a backlist pick for book club. So maybe if not this year, next year we'll get to it or something. Because I do think that a lot of different types of readers would like this book.

[B]

Well, it's funny because I posted about this on my Instagram story last weekend when I was reading it, and I got so many DMs from people saying how much they loved it and how they felt it was underhyped. So I feel like the people who have rated this on Goodreads and the bad on paper community might just be a circle.

[A]

Maybe, but we, we should try to expand it.

[B]

I know. I know.

[A]

Should read this book.

[B]

I was irate on behalf of this author that it was not more popular.

[A]

Yeah. You know, and it's weird because it's such a good, like I said, it's such a good book club pick. Not just because I think if it's a lot of taste, but also because there are so many interesting things to discuss in so many relations to not only just like experiences of women as a whole, but like pop culture, the royal family. Like, there's Disney athletes. There's. Yes, there's a lot of. There's a lot.

[B]

And I found it fascinating that at the very end there is an author's note and I think actually knowing this in advance might be more interesting, where she says that the book was partially inspired by Princess Charlene of Monaco, who was a former Olympic swimmer before becoming a princess. And there are at least two documented times where she tried to escape the palace before her wedding.

[A]

Amazing. Which is how the book opens, if I recall correctly.

[B]

Correct. Correct.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that is what we have for you. In two weeks, we are having our October book club. We are reading Heart the Lover by Lily King, which is, I think, my top book of the year so far. I cannot wait to discuss it. I've seen so many positive reviews from people in the BFF group in my DMs. I'm so excited for us to talk about this book. It's quite short. It's a book in three parts. It starts with a love triangle on a college campus, maybe in like the late 80s, and how those relationships ripple through the narrator's life. Join us for that. Join us in the BFF Group, formerly known as the Geneva Group, which is kind of a chat room app where there's different rooms for different cities sessions. Oh, I was gonna say cities. If you want to find local bookish friends for different book genres, there's a Bop Swifty Room if you have thoughts that you are bubbling to share about the new album. There's a book club room if you want to talk about our current book club pick or any past picks. Very fun over there. One of my favorite places on the Internet and then you can also find us on Facebook in the Facebook group under batonpaper podcast on Instagram batonpaperpodcast. I am on Instagram Becca M. Freeman and my newsletter is at becca freeman.

[A]

Substack.Com and I am on Instagram and substack oliviamentor and I will be so grateful if you would pre order my forthcoming novel Little One Today. It makes a world of difference.

[B]

Go do that. Bye Bye.