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Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance Book Club
01:04:42
September is coming to a close, and you know what that means! Time to talk about this month’s book club pick, . We discuss our expectations going into this book based on the cover, how it balanced its dark themes with humor, what we thought of the...
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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Bound on paper podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia mentor.
- [00:23]
A
And it's book club day. We are talking about notes on your sudden disappearance by Allison Sback, and I don't know how to finish that sentence.
- [00:33]
B
Well, I don't know what you thought of the book, so I'm. I'm looking forward to talking to you about it.
- [00:37]
A
Well, before we get into that, let's do some highs and lows. Tell me what your high is.
- [00:42]
B
My high is that Jake and I had a yard sale, which I have been wanting to do for a long time. We had a big one once in Philly, and it was such a good experience. We made a decent amount of money. We purged the house. It was. It's a very social thing and I've been wanting to do one. The weather looked good last weekend, and the town next to us has kind of like a. A neighborhood wide yard sale day, which is one of my favorite days. But I thought we could kind of like, you know, go off of that. Like, people are already going around looking for yard sales, so why don't we do it as well? So we Woke up at 6 in the morning, gathered all of our items. It was very low key, put them outside, and it was a lot of furniture, a lot of chairs, because as I've learned, I tend to collect a lot of chairs in my thr and life path. And so we ended up having this like little outdoor living room set in our driveway for the whole morning, which was really kind of funny. And I will say that our average customer age was probably about 77 or so.
- [01:49]
A
Okay.
- [01:50]
B
Which I don't think was good for the type of items I had. You know, I just, I don't think it really vibed with their.
- [01:56]
A
It was like, you ordered this, I bought it, and now I'm trying to sell it back to you.
- [02:02]
B
Something like that. Yeah. And I have a lot of like mid century modern style things because I was more into that handful of years ago. So just, you know, it wasn't their thing. A lot of men in camo looking for tools, like a lot. But we did manage to make a couple hundred dollars. And the best part was that we had friends of ours come by and they were nice enough that they brought a bottle of wine and. And then at the same time they arrived, this other couple around our age arrived, and we were all standing there talking and I was like, well, do you guys all just want to stay and hang out? So we all sat in like our little Fake outdoor living room for the rest of the afternoon and had some wine and talked and we gave them the house tour. And so we made new friends. We hung out with local friends.
- [02:52]
A
Pillar of the community. Olivia. Pillar of the community.
- [02:55]
B
And we see stuff. Well, you know, it felt good just to be social in a kind of weird new way and also just to get stuff out of the house. Because even though there was a lot of things we didn't sell, now they're like on their way to being donated somewhere, you know, so it was a good end of summer, beginning of fall activity that I highly suggest.
- [03:17]
A
Okay, I have two follow up questions. First, what was your proudest sale?
- [03:23]
B
I sold a plant. Oh. Which was nice. We had just one of those pothos plants that we've had for years in a pot that I didn't really like. And I kind of just walked past it every day thinking, that's nice, but not really for me. And yeah, it was the first thing we sold. Oh, wow. $4. $4. I don't know if that's my proudest sale, but actually one of the proudest sales. There were two chairs that I really loved, but I just couldn't figure out how to make them work in our house. And. And our friends ended up taking them. At first they weren't, but then they sat in them in the outdoor living room for a couple hours having some wine. And then at the end they were like, you know, we'll take those. So they took them for, you know, a. Steal a friends and family deal, if you will.
- [04:07]
A
That's so exciting. You can still visit them.
- [04:09]
B
Yes.
- [04:10]
A
Okay. My second question, which I think I know the answer to based on what you've already said, but you said it was town yard sale day. Did you go to any other yard sales and acquire anything yourself?
- [04:22]
B
I wish. You know, the. The yard sale day in Kinderhook, which is the town nearest, can get very competitive. It's. A lot of antique dealers show up very early. And I don't know if anyone has ever been around antique dealers, but they are aggressive. I think I've talked about this before, so you kind of have to go in with a very specific mindset. And I was distracted with the logistics of our sale. There's a lot of signage that had to happen to get people from one place to another.
- [04:46]
A
Sure.
- [04:47]
B
Spanning miles. So. So, so that was. That was my main focus. But I think next year we'll definitely visit some. Okay, well, tell us about your high.
- [04:57]
A
My high is that I turned in my draft that I Was working on.
- [05:00]
B
Congratulations.
- [05:01]
A
Thank you very much. I turned it in a day late, but I turned it in and I feel a little silly because I just had two back to back vacations before finishing this draft. Like I shouldn't feel as taxed as I do, but I am brain dead after that 10 day sprint to finish the draft. So I've been having some fun weekday adventures. Yesterday I went with my friend Jess. We went to this preview of an artist pop up doing CJ Hendry is doing these felt florals in Rockefeller Center. So we went to that, went to the Frick Museum, we got lunch, we did a little shopping. So like that was a fun adventure. Today after we record, my friend Allie's in town for a business trip. So I'm gonna go have lunch with her and then play pickleball. So I'm just, I'm having some fun weekday adventures which I never let myself do normally. So it feels very cheeky sneaky that I'm not sitting in front of a computer on a weekday.
- [06:09]
B
Nice. Well, I don't know if it was this year, but I feel like that was your goal or one of your goals at some point or something in this realm.
- [06:17]
A
Yeah, it was a couple years ago to have like one adventure day a month because I didn't feel like I was taking adequate advantage of working for myself. And I'm still really bad at it. I feel really guilty when I don't work a capitalist nine to five business day.
- [06:34]
B
Well, our brains have been conditioned, only find value in working around the clock whether we need to be or not. So that's understandable. But I'm glad you're taking some time off. I think that when you're that deeply focused on sentence after sentence after sentence, rereading, reading, it's burnout. It leads to burnout very quickly.
- [06:56]
A
Yeah, it's a different kind of mental tax.
- [07:00]
B
Yes. It's exhausting.
- [07:01]
A
Yeah.
- [07:02]
B
Also, I think, I don't know about you, but just the act of like staring at, you know, like just looking at words that intensely for that long, it's essentially like obviously you're writing, but you're reading for, you know, eight hours at a time or whatever it is, it can be hard.
- [07:17]
A
Yeah.
- [07:18]
B
Well, what's your low?
- [07:19]
A
My low is that I turn in my draft and then immediately went into a very hardcore post draft spiral. Not uncommon. I do think it's a pattern, but I feel like part of turning in any draft is this process of reconciling that the book still isn't perfect and it's not the final draft, but we're getting close to the final draft. It was a smaller amount of edits, and I really felt like, oh, well, of course the book will be perfect when I'm done with it. And I specifically got really tripped up on one of the edits, and it's a more minor order edit having to do with a side character. But I just couldn't crack it. And so I sent a kind of pitiful email back to my editor, basically, that said, help. I did the best I could, but I hate the feeling of not being perfect. Doesn't that feeling suck?
- [08:14]
B
Yes, it does. I hate it. Did you have a point with your first book where you did feel like, okay, this is perfect?
- [08:22]
A
No, I definitely didn't. And I remember feeling so spun up about certain small edits in the kind of last couple of drafts. I found the last couple of drafts really hard in a different way. So it was less was changing. I was doing less work. But there were certain small things that I couldn't fix or needing to make peace with. Oh, I have this idea, but I can't implement it because it would just add too much useless length or something. You know, like, I've heard the analogy of you're on a highway and the further you go, you know, at first there's like all these turns you could take. You could. You could go here, you could go there. It could be this, it could be that, and the further you go, everything kind of closes off. Or maybe a better analogy is like a hallway with different doors of rooms you can go into. And by the end, you're like, okay, no, this is what it is. And so kind of making peace with all those closed doors. But I remember feeling, again, inadequate. I had done an inadequate job with my first book. And it wasn't until I got my first pass pages, which is after you do your final draft, you then get copy edits, which is kind of all the grammar, minutiae, timeline stuff. And then after that, you get pass pages. And there's usually two, maybe three rounds of pass pages. And that's the first time when you see the book formatted as a book.
- [09:43]
B
So.
- [09:44]
A
So the pages are all typeset. It has any of the design elements like the chapter headings, et cetera. And it wasn't until I got my first pass pages, and I think I finished the Christmas Orphans Club in early January. And I want to say I maybe got first pass pages in early April. So it was really three months, and I'd looked at it in between for copy edits. But it wasn't until then that I was able to read the book with fresh eyes. And I was like, oh, no, this is good. So I didn't have that feeling. Even as I finished the book, I was like, well, I'm trusting that. My editor and my agent say that it's good and it's done, but I still feel like I could have done more. So it's not an unfamiliar feeling, but it's certainly an uncomfortable feeling.
- [10:34]
B
Yeah, I would imagine it's universal. I definitely feel that way. I think there's a certain aspect of writing books that's a little bit like, you know, the ghost ship that we've talked about before. It's kind of like, you realize especially, I think, because from the beginning of a project to the end of it, by the end of it, I think you're better. So you kind of think, oh, I might have gone a different direction. I might have done something else. I might have done that better. But ultimately, like you said, you have to trust yourself and you have to trust your team that what you've ended up with is how it's supposed to be. It is very hard and uncomfortable, but I'm sure it's great. And, you know, forward progress is always worth celebrating in books. I think there's so many small steps that. That have to get us to the end, truly.
- [11:22]
A
What about you? What's your low?
- [11:24]
B
My low is I just feel like it is a very tough time to. To be in the world right now and just manage it all. I actually. I got lunch with a. A new friend who's just local, who, you know, it's like, oh, I'm trying to meet more people. And we have a lot in common. We have very similar values. And it was really nice. And at some point she was just like, so how are you feeling about, like, being in America right now?
- [11:47]
A
Sure.
- [11:47]
B
And I just had this moment of like, yeah, that is a topic that has come up more and more with a lot of my friends. And it's kind of surreal that I find myself having conversations often that are like, well, what's your line? Where you'd be like, this is too far. And a lot of times what I come back to is like, I don't know, what is the line anymore? I don't know. It's just. There's a sense of surrealness, and we've talked about it before, but numbness. And it's all horrific in so many different ways. And at the same time, it's difficult because on A surface level. I, like, really like my life right now. You know, I love our home, I love our community, I love my job. And then there's all this terrible stuff going on and it's hard to know what to do. You know, I. And I. I'm not saying anything interesting or helpful, but it's just this low grade background noise that makes life more confusing or hard. I don't know.
- [12:47]
A
I think it's also really frustrating that it doesn't seem like anything is happening on the opposition side or that I don't see that. Like, it feels like, you know, from a citizen perspective, you see people being like, I don't approve of this. This is not good. But it's all lip service. And then, you know, even at the official level of people in Congress, people who might be candidates for president in 2028, you know, it's like, what are you doing? You know, it feels like everyone's just making statements or posting things on social media and it's like, great. Glad we're aligned. What the fuck are we doing?
- [13:29]
B
I know I was talking about this with my mom the other day and I, in a moment of, like, trying to be hopeful, I was like, well, you know, next year we're kind of going to be approaching the midterms and hopefully that kicks some stuff off. But at this point, like, I keep thinking this. This woman I was talking to, she was like, you know, at the beginning of the year with the inauguration, it was really hard for me and I was like, it's only been.
- [13:53]
A
I know, months.
- [13:54]
B
I know, like, I can't fathom what it will be like in three years, if this is where we're at. Six months in or 10 months in whatever. Nine months. I can't do math, clearly. I don't know. Time. Anyway, it's nothing new or insightful, but it's just a really harrowing time to be a human and try to parse through all the emotions and things happening.
- [14:16]
A
I hear you. I feel those feelings. You are not alone.
- [14:20]
B
Thank you. Sometimes that helps. Just that. Well, let us get into this book, which is also about how to be a human in the world in some ways.
- [14:31]
A
Yes. Would you like to kick us off with the summary of this book? What is this book?
- [14:36]
B
Yes.
- [14:37]
A
Remind us what this book is.
- [14:38]
B
Yes. So this book is notes on your sudden disappearance, which, by the way, I keep wanting to say notes on your sudden execution.
- [14:46]
A
Oh, very different book. Very different book. Because notes on an execution. I get it.
- [14:51]
B
Yeah. Yes. Which is a book I also really, really love Anyway, this is Notes on your sudden disappearance by Allison S. Pack, and this novel follows Sally and her older sister, Kathy. Sally absolutely idolizes Kathy and Kathy's boyfriend, Billy Barnes, who is a star high school basketball player. And when Sally, Kathy and Billy get into a horrible car accident one day on school, it leaves Kathy dead and Billy gravely injured. And Sally is left to figure out what her life looks like going forward without her sister as she finds herself more and more drawn to Billy. Throughout the years, complicated emotions and events unfold. Before we get into this discussion, let's take an ad break. This episode is sponsored by Caraway Home, AKA the maker of the cookware set that I have been using for the past 55 years. For all of that time I have had exactly zero issues with my caraway frying pans or saucepans. And keep in mind this is with daily repeated use of these products. So in other words, I can truly and honestly vouch for how these pots and pans hold up over time. And also, they look really great in the kitchen. Just as an added bonus, Caraway is.
- [16:11]
A
Famous for their iconic cookware set which I also received and have been using for a shorter time. Maybe like four months now. And when I first got it I was skeptical because it doesn't have the non stick coating and I was like okay, well is everything just going to stick to this? And it doesn't. I've had such a good experience. It cleans really easily, really well. The cookware is really heavy duty. It's actually quite heavy just to the touch. And if you've already been converted to their cookware, you should know that they also have amazing cutting boards and really beautiful food storage and bakeware sets.
- [16:50]
B
I also have the food storage set and I have to tell you how nice it is to use a container with a glass lid. Not only does this mean I can just easily look in and see what's in the containers, but they also just feel luxurious. They look really nice, but Caraway's famous cookware set is a favorite for a reason. It can save you up to $190Vers buying the items individually. Plus, if you visit caraway home.comb you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. The deal is exclusive for our listeners, so visit CarawayHome.com BOP or use code BOP at checkout Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern so I have talked a lot about how I love this book. I do not know what you have thought about this book. I do know that you like me are a huge, huge the Wedding People fan.
- [17:46]
A
Huge.
- [17:47]
B
And this was Alison S. Pack's book that preceded the Wedding People. It came out in 2022. So tell me, what were your overall thoughts on this book?
- [18:00]
A
I'm sorry to say that this book didn't work for me. I started out as a like not love in kind of the first section with Kathy and Sally's childhood. And I kind of got more neutral as I went and I didn't hate it, but I didn't like it. So yeah, I feel like we are continuing a trend of being slightly disconnected on opinions of our book club picks. But because I know that I'm potentially in a minority, I've seen many very positive sentiments in the Geneva BFF group from listeners. So be the Aladdin to my Jasmine show me your world Tell me yeah sing sing me a song and tell me why this book worked so well for you and why it worked so well that you wanted it to be a book club pick.
- [19:04]
B
Yeah, I mean I don't really make predictions of what you will like or not like necessarily, but I felt, am.
- [19:09]
A
I a wild card?
- [19:10]
B
Am I a loose cannon? I just think we both read so much that and we talk to so many readers that like, I kind of just have the sense that oftentimes people are unpredictable. You know, it's just reading Taste is so individual. Like completely individual. Even people who I share Taste with widely, often there's a book I feel super passionately about that they don't. So I can try not to make predictions. However, I think part of why I adored this book is because it had a feeling to it that reminded me of the Wedding People. The darkness, the humor, the warmth. And so because we are both massive fans of the Wedding People one, I thought it would make an interesting discussion because I think this is interesting that you can like an author's book and not care for the other one. Or you can like an author's book but not feel drawn to the other one or you love both and how that could be different across the board.
- [20:03]
A
I did think it was interesting to see the fingerprints of this is the work that Alison Aspak was doing directly before the Wedding people. And like where were their overlaps versus where did she zag versus Zig with the wedding people and what made that work for me? So I did think, as my writing brain, this was still very interesting to read. Talk to me about the book specifically, like, what about this book did you love?
- [20:33]
B
I loved the Voice. I thought it was a really fresh way to approach Storytelling that I hadn't actually read this book is in second person, which is kind of unique. It's literally Sally talking to Kathy about her disappearance, her death, everything that comes after. And so I thought it added this sense of, like, Sally just seemed like such a real human to me. I mean, completely and totally real. In a similar way to. I remember you talking about one of the characters in the Wedding People. So I think it's something that. Whether it works for everyone, I think we can both agree that Allison S. Back is pretty good at. And interestingly speaking of what you just said about overlap, I listened to an interview where the author said that she actually started writing the Wedding People, that very first scene in the hotel while she was working on notes on your sudden disappearance. And she described it as cheating on her current project with this other book. And so she wrote the first scene, she put it away for years, and then she went back to it later when she was trying to figure out what to write. So at one point, they were happening at the same time, which is kind of interesting. Did you go into this book, like, with Certain Expectations? Because one thing that I want to talk about for a second is the COVID Yes. Which I think is. I mean, we can talk about whether covers can make or break a book, but I think the argument can be made here that both of the covers that have existed for this book have kind of done a disservice. I don't know. Talk to me about your expectations when you saw the COVID what you thought of it, all of that.
- [22:06]
A
Well, I remember seeing this book back in 2022 when it came out. The first cover that it had was a pool with two empty inner tubes in it. And I remember looking at it and seeing the title Notes on youn Sudden Disappearance. And I was like, oh, this is a thriller. This is not for me. I just assumed, based on that package, the combination of the two, that this was a thriller. So at the time, that was my expectation coming into it this time, the COVID is now a floral pattern. It's just kind of a motif, which I guess maybe makes sense. Billy's family owns a garden center, basically. So, you know, there is flowers as a motif throughout the book, but it feels loose, like it doesn't feel. Flowers are not so integral to this book that I look at the COVID and having read the book, I'm like, yes, obviously. So it feels more vague. Like it's almost a color blob cover that's slightly less abstract. And this cover feels very happy, which is very discordant. With the tone of the book. The title doesn't sound happy, so I guess it's a marriage of the two. But I don't think I maybe expected it to be as dark. I think what I knew about this book was really just your pitch. It's about sisters. One of them dies and the other is left to kind of move on without her. So that's what I knew. I don't know. I don't think either is a great cover for it.
- [23:47]
B
I agree with you. I think. I mean, we can talk about maybe why you think that the Wedding People was her breakout and this wasn't, since you have such differing opinions between them. But I think personally, as someone who really loved them both, I think the COVID didn't help because it's just. You look at it and you have no idea what it's about. Having said that, I think it's a really tough book to make a cover for.
- [24:11]
A
Yeah.
- [24:11]
B
Because it's a lot of different things in. In. In a similar way to the Wedding People. You don't look at that cover and necessarily think, well, this is going to be about a woman who wants to take her own life at the beginning, you know, which is probably the point. But it's a hard type of book, I guess, to do a cover for.
- [24:31]
A
You mentioned this before. Do you think a cover can make or break a book?
- [24:36]
B
I think that if a book is on the edge, especially a more divisive book maybe, which I've seen both negative and positive reviews of this book, I think it's pretty. It's pretty like kind of middle of the road on Goodreads. In terms of a rating, I think that it can either push it over the edge, positive or negative.
- [24:54]
A
So.
- [24:55]
B
So yes, I guess it can. But I think if a book is like beloved across the board, I think the COVID doesn't really matter. Or vice versa. What do you think?
- [25:03]
A
I definitely think a cover can make a book. I think a really strong cover can get people to pick it up. I also think a really strong cover, especially in our current era of social media, gets a book included in more roundups, stacks, visuals. It just gets it seen more places. So I do think a good cover can make a book. I think the only time a cover can break a book, I think you can have a bad cover. Like for instance, I don't think this flower cover is ugly, but I think it is vague and does not give you any indication about what the book is about. And I don't think that that breaks the book. It kind of is just a net neutral. But I think the only time a cover breaks the book is when it missets expectations.
- [25:53]
B
And.
- [25:53]
A
And I wonder if with the first cover, the first iteration of this cover, people picked it up thinking it was going to be a thriller, and then we're disappointed. So I think the only time that it truly is net negative is if it tells you something wrong about the book. It, like, Ms. Sets your expectations.
- [26:15]
B
Yeah. I imagine this is a really hard one to have, like, conversations about internally because. I don't know. I remember hearing Jenna Bush Hager talk about, like, picking the Wedding People and how they were kind of nervous because it's such dark subject matter, and obviously her audience is like, you know, morning television people. I just imagine you're thinking about. You're thinking about a lot of different things and what levers you want to pull and what's going to hit the most, you know, is it going to be the people that want something dark or is it going to be the people that want something heartwarming? So it's tough.
- [26:46]
A
I think the COVID of the Wedding People, I don't think it made the book, certainly, but I remember seeing that cover before. I'd heard a lick of buzz for the book before I had an arc anything, and we talked about this on our episode with Molly Von Borstel about COVID design. That was one of my favorite covers in recent history, and I knew that I was gonna read that book no matter what. Like, didn't know what it was about, and I was gonna read that book. So I do think that having such a strong cover, and I would say a unique cover, too, for the Wedding People really helped it.
- [27:24]
B
That's so interesting. I did not have a strong reaction to that cover at all, but I love hearing that it worked for you. And speaking of working for you, what do you think? So we both love the Wedding People.
- [27:35]
A
Yes.
- [27:36]
B
I loved this book. You did not.
- [27:38]
A
Yeah.
- [27:38]
B
What do you think it was that made the Wedding People a winner for you and not this one?
- [27:43]
A
Okay. I. I've been thinking a ton about this as I was reading the book. I've narrowed it down to a few things. I think that in the Wedding People, there was a similarly depressing backstory for the character. Phoebe had a lot of darkness in her backstory. She struggled with infertility. Her husband left her, had a not ideal family situation, a lot of dark, negative in tone backstory. But it was balanced against a more plotty and a more effervescent.
- [28:23]
B
Tighter timeline.
- [28:24]
A
Tighter timeline, for sure. And plottier timeline. You know, having it set against a wedding weekend gave it a lot of structure versus in Notes on your sudden disappearance. It's kind of this sprawling blob, and there's not a ton of plot. I would say, you know, the main plot is her sister dies. And other than that, it's a very meandering slice of life novel. Versus having the wedding weekend imposed on the Wedding people gave it a lot more structure. And the pairing of the bride, whose name I can never remember, and Phoebe, it was just a more effervescent foil, which I think existed in Notes on your sudden disappearance in the first 20% when Kathy was alive. I think Kathy gave that. But once Kathy died, the book became kind of very all negative. And so I think the Wedding People to me was more of a chocolate pretzel book. It had that sweet, salty balance where I think this one was more black licorice. This was a black licorice book. And so I think that really helped the Wedding People, both the forced constraints of the wedding weekend with plot and then also the foil of the bride, I think really helped make that book work better. I also think it was zanier. I think that this book had a certain aspect of, like, deep specificity. But I think in the Wedding People, it almost was elevated to, like, zaniness of, you know, the daughter's name in that is Juice. And there's all these very eccentric characters, like the bride's mom and kind of the different wedding guests. And in this book, you have a whiff of that. And I could see it maybe the most with Jan, the rich woman, who is maybe or maybe not a psychic. But I think it was elevated in the Wedding People, and I think that really helped to offset some of the darkness. It almost really reminds me of, like, a Kevin Wilson book that has a certain zaniness that offsets the darkness.
- [30:31]
B
This came after, like, a romp.
- [30:33]
A
A romp? Yeah. Like the Annie Hartnett, the Road to Tender Hearts has that zaniness. Margot's got money troubles has that zaniness. Like, I think that flavor helps to offset the darkness in the Wedding People.
- [30:47]
B
Hmm. That's such a good point. And it makes a lot of sense. I think maybe that's exactly why I. If I had to pick, I maybe liked Notes in your sudden Disappearance more than the Wedding People because I think I'm naturally drawn towards, like, towards the dark licorice, the black licorice. I'm naturally drawn towards darker things. And maybe it was just the balance. Like, maybe Notes on Your sudden disappearance was a little. A little more darkness and a little less zaniness or humor. Although I found notes on your sudden disappearance very funny at times I still think about the sort of like inciting incident in the whole novel, which is the State of the Union speech and her mom saying I, yes, maybe I do want to fuck the president to the husband and then her writing it in her journal and it affects the car accident and all this stuff. It was so horrible. But I was laughing at certain parts throughout.
- [31:40]
A
I have a very morbid observation. Permission to share?
- [31:46]
B
Sure. About me or the book?
- [31:47]
A
Both. Oh, great.
- [31:49]
B
Great.
- [31:49]
A
Okay. So another thing that I was thinking as I was reading this book, knowing that you had loved it, was that I think I do not have experiences of death in my own life that match this book. All of the key experiences in my life of death have been long term illness related. It's a lot of sitting, it's a lot of waiting, it's a lot of somebody in pain, It's a lot of knowing they're going to die versus I know that you had a very close friend who died in a car accident. And it's a very different experience of death, of this person is here one moment, gone the next, too young to die, which mirrors that book, even if this person wasn't a sister and you're not existing in the same family system as them. And so I wonder if you having that experience made you connect more deeply to this book than me, who is lacking that specific experience.
- [32:49]
B
Hmm. You know, I did think a lot about my friend Ashley who died when she was 24 and I was 24 and she died in a car accident. And I thought particularly a lot about her girlfriend who was driving, who lived. And yeah, it made me think about her perspective in a different way because Sally in the book feels a lot of guilt. And I don't know how the person who was driving the car when, when my friend died, I don't know what her experience is like, but I imagine it's very, very complicated and painful. But yeah, there is like the suddenness to go back to the title is very disorienting. Like, you know, in my case, I just got a phone call and it's just, your friend is dead. You were texting her yesterday and now she's dead. And there's just this sense of like disbelief, complete shock. You think it's not real, it's fake. You know, it's such a. It's such a surreal existence and it changes everything. So yeah, I did think A little bit about that while I was reading, for sure. But I actually hadn't. I hadn't thought about it in that way. That's an interesting observation.
- [34:00]
A
Yeah, I feel like I can certainly empathize with the experience, but I don't have those feelings in my body. And so that felt a little more outside than. For instance, I'm thinking of Catherine Newman's We All Want Impossible things that you wanted to do as a book club. And I was like, I absolutely cannot do this. I would just be sobbing the entire episode. So just that experience of death is something that I very closely relate to. To an almost like over identification. Whereas this felt more disparate from my personal experience. But I can imagine if it mirrored your personal experience, this book would hit very different.
- [34:42]
B
One thing I didn't know reading this book, that I found out afterwards is that the book is largely based on Alison S. Pack's experience with her brother dying when they were teenagers. And I don't actually know if it was a car accident, but I assume would maybe assume so. And there's something that felt very real about that to me after I read it, because I think this book, it just hit me in the soul in such a way where I thought this person, you know, I was so in Sally's mind that I was like, oh, this person has really experienced this. But when I realized that, I was like, oh, yes, this came from a real thing. Did you know that when you were reading?
- [35:20]
A
I didn't, but I was unsurprised to learn it. I had an inkling that this was personal, just given that early books tend to deal with topics that are more personal to the author. And especially when I got to the last section where it fast forwards to Sally as an adult and she is a freelance writer. And I don't know Allison Sbach's professional history. I think she's a creative writing professor, so maybe she's always been in academia. But something about her being a writer made me say, oh, I think that this character might be a fictionalized version of the author.
- [35:58]
B
Yeah, I imagine it was a very difficult thing to write in a lot of ways, but I found it very powerful. So I said that I really connected with the second person voice. But I have read a lot of criticism that it just doesn't work for people, and I could very much understand why that would be the case. Do you think that that was something that made you kind of not be as into it or how did you feel about that?
- [36:22]
A
No, I felt totally neutral on it. I Wasn't amazed by it. Maybe in the same way that it sounds like you were. Stylistically, it didn't bother me whatsoever. I think as long as something is executed well and consistently. Like, for instance, I know a lot of people hate that Sally Rooney books don't have quotation marks and it doesn't bother me. And so, again, this was similar. Was it the defining thing of the book? No, but I didn't mind it. I thought at some points it was really interesting to hear her address Sally, especially as things were happening with Billy, that she was kind of having a concurrent dialogue with her dead sister that really added to the book. But no, it didn't bother me at all. But I did see similar comments in the Geneva Group that people were like, I don't know if I can do this.
- [37:09]
B
Yeah, I saw someone say it was tough on audio, which I can see how it would be a problem. I don't know if I was amazed by it per se, but I thought it was fresh and different and just added to, like, the humanity of Sally in a lot of ways.
- [37:25]
A
I laughed so hard because in this most recent draft, I don't know why, I had one or two sentences that were in the second person where it was like, do you know how hard it is to Blah, blah, blah. And my editor's note was like, don't do this.
- [37:40]
B
I. You know what's funny? I've done that. It was one sentence in little one, and it stayed in for a really long time. And finally I was like, why is this here? Like, I was like, why did I make this choice? I don't think it's still there, but sometimes it is tempting to just be like, I'm gonna. Yep, I'm gonna swerve. Yeah. Have your books. Are they both third person?
- [38:01]
A
No, they're first person first.
- [38:04]
B
They're both first. Oh, but then there's multiple POVs in the first one.
- [38:07]
A
Yep.
- [38:08]
B
And they're all first.
- [38:09]
A
They're both first person.
- [38:10]
B
Okay, well, let's take one more ad break and then we will get into some more discussion about this book. This episode is sponsored by Quint, where you can get absolutely anything you are considering adding to your wardrobe or home for fall for a fraction of what it would cost somewhere else. I often find myself browsing on Quint for something really specific, like the perfect cashmere sweater or a really nice wool coat. And I will find myself sidetracked by other items that are incredibly high quality and wildly affordable stuff like luggage and home decor, you name it. And I promise you Quint is probably selling it at a full fraction of the price you might expect, but all of the quality you're hoping for.
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A
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- [39:38]
B
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- [40:02]
A
Okay Olivia, what did you think of Sally and Billi's relationship in this book and its evolution?
- [40:09]
B
Yes, I will admit at first I felt a little bit weird about it because Sally read so young to me and Billie was older and clearly more experienced and it just felt really unbalanced in this way that kind of made me uncomfortable. But as it went on I really understood why they would be so drawn to each other. I thought their connection was so interesting. I appreciated that they went and did their own thing. But I have to admit the whole priest plot line really threw me. I was like what is happening here? But I really liked it. I thought it was so sweet and I thought that the tension with the parents and how they just didn't want anything to do with him at various times made so much sense to me. But why Sally would be drawn to him also made sense and it just made for this dynamic that I thought was really engaging and made me want to keep reading. I would guess that maybe you didn't like it, but I don't know. Tell me how you feel.
- [41:13]
A
I would say this is probably the dynamic that worked the best for me in the book. I felt like it made a lot of sense that Sally and Billy both had this survivor's guilt. They were the only people in the car and so of course they were the only two people who could understand what the other person was going through. And especially as Sally's parents were so lost in their own grief and were almost neglecting her grief. I found it really logical that the two of them bonded. And, you know, I think it also made sense that she had this crush. And I thought it was played really well that, you know, she had this child, like, crush on him. And even after her sister died, like, it's clear she has this crush, but nothing's gonna happen. And I found the kind of amount of waiting to be appropriate where I was like, yes, I understand how this all happened. I think the bigger problem I had, and I hesitate to say this, but, you know, I think I've decided that I will be honest in my critical opinions of book club picks, is that I don't think Sally's character totally made sense for me. Consistency wise, I really understood who she was when she was a child. She idolized her older sister. She's painfully shy, kind of very much living in her own head. But then she kind of blossoms into this almost rebellious teenager, goes to college and kind of has this vibrant social life. And I don't know that the character evolution totally made sense for me. So it almost would have felt better for me if she was kind of existing as this high school outcast, and the only person that she could get past her shyness with was Billy. Like, that would have almost made more sense to me, versus, you know, she has this great boyfriend who she's dating, but kind of callously, like, can't connect with him, and then is emotionally cheating with Billie. Like, that didn't totally track for me. So, like, the Billi relationship in a bubble totally worked for me. It was everything outside of it that kind of muddied the waters, I would.
- [43:30]
B
Say for me, the. The evolution made sense. And I think that had Billy been her only point of connection, if she stayed very shy, if they got together earlier, that kind of thing.
- [43:40]
A
Not to suggest they should have gotten together earlier, but just that they had this private, secret world that was kind of unique in that she felt like she could talk to him in a way. Obviously, there is a level of understanding with regards to what happened to Kathy, but also, given her painfully shy childhood, that he was the only person she could talk to. I'm realizing as I'm saying this, I'm like, that kind of boxes in the character, but I guess I just didn't feel like I understood kind of the connective tissue of, like, how did you go from this painfully shy child, your sister dies, which is. Makes people be nice to you, and then all of a sudden you're a rebellious teenager. Like, I didn't get the connective tissue there.
- [44:24]
B
I have described this last scene, last chapter, as one of my favorites of all time. I think it's so beautiful. There's this moment where her and Billy finally come back together. And I was like, is it gonna happen? Is it gonna happen? And I thought it was the way it was described with the hurricane bearing down on them that is named after her sister was just really beautiful. Were you just sort of already out of the story at that point? You were like, oh, this isn't for me, so I don't care. Or did you appreciate it? I. And the sentiment that it sort of represented or did it just not work? I liked it.
- [44:54]
A
I really liked the scene or kind of series of scenes right before it when Billy comes over to take down the tree and there's kind of this loosening in the relationship, the tension between him and her parents. Then the mom sends them out to go get all of these like random ass groceries and they end up getting lobsters and then bringing them back. And then her boyfriend shows up. Like, I really liked that series of scenes leading up to it. I liked that last scene, but I don't think it had enough punch for me. I saw somebody say in the Geneva group, like, oh, that ending. And I think I maybe expected more of a twist. I don't know what I expected. I was almost like, is he going to get in a car accident in the hurricane? And like, is he going to die? There was a big part of me that when in the past timeline, there's like a slight flash forward where she mentions her fiance. And I thought for sure Billie was her fiancee. And I thought maybe she would be estranged from her family and that would kind of be a plotline. I thought it was lovely, but I guess I didn't find it surprising.
- [46:09]
B
Yeah, for me it kind of felt inevitable. But I was. Because it took a bit to get there. I was. And the fiance thing threw me off for a bit as well. I thought it was Billie, like you. It felt satisfying to me because it felt inevitable. But also the buildup was slow.
- [46:26]
A
And I agree with you. I do like that the hurricane was named Kathy. I thought that that was a really like lovely full circleness to the. To the book.
- [46:37]
B
Yeah, I totally agree. So like I said, this book came out in 2022 and it was her second book. It was the follow up to her debut, which came out in 2011. It's the called the adults. She was only 25 when that book came out, so there was a lot of time between These books. And when I saw her speak at the Jenna's Book Club event, which, I'm sorry, this comes up every episode, but it was really a highlight of my year, as you can see.
- [47:00]
A
Just rubbing salt in the wound that I didn't go and I regret it.
- [47:05]
B
I mean, it was great. It was just awesome. It was like Monster Jam, but for authors, you know. Yeah. So she, at that event was talking about how her publisher, and I'm assuming that was Scribner, which was the imprint for the adults, rejected her option and how at the time it felt really devastating to her and it felt like being kind of rejected by your family. And for those that don't know, when you have a one book deal, the book comes out, you have an option which is essentially says that the publisher will consider your next work, whether that is part of that work, half of that work, or the whole thing first. And they can either say yes or no. And sometimes they say no. And I've heard from a lot of authors that it's really painful because, you know, you just had this, you would hope, great working experience with them. And maybe you love working with your editor. I would assume you do if you're wanting to work with them again. And then they're just like, nope, sorry, not your next one. And I just found the idea that a person who has had one of the biggest novels of probably the past five or 10 years would have been rejected like that. And anyway, I wonder if her team at Scribner, her former team, was just kicking themselves, you know?
- [48:25]
A
Well, do you happen to know, did she say, was the option project that she pitched this book or was it a different book?
- [48:33]
B
She didn't say that. And because there is so much time between the two books, I honestly am not totally sure. You know, she could have written a couple books in that time. But, yeah, I would love to know. I would love to know more about what happened in that decade.
- [48:48]
A
Another thing I found fascinating is I said that I saw this book in 2022, but I. I didn't hear that much buzz around it. And so I kind of assumed it flew under the radar a bit. And I was looking last night to try to see what the reception was to this book at the time. Like, was it kind of just a quieter release? And then the Wedding People came out of nowhere. But it does seem like it had quite a bit of press at the time. It was named a best book of the year of 2022 by NPR. It was written up in, like, people in the Wall Street Journal. It had starred reviews and Publishers Weekly and in book list it was an indie next pick. So I was really surprised that I think maybe I was not on this train, but there were people like, it was more of a build than I might have expected to. The wedding people versus the wedding people just being like an out of nowhere hit.
- [49:52]
B
Yeah, I had the same experience when I looked it up and was surprised to see all of that. And actually looking up her first book, the Adults, that was. I think it was like a New York Times book pick at some point. And that also got a good deal of buzz as well. So it just goes to show you that sometimes it just takes a little bit, you know, for things to really build before it just explodes.
- [50:15]
A
I think that's the thing that I found the most interesting about reading this book was kind of. And obviously I am projecting all of this onto it. So who knows what her thought process was. But seeing the elements of this book that overlapped with the Wedding People, where I was like, yes, I can tell the same author wrote this. And then going back to our earlier discussion, the things about the Wedding people, that made it work so much better for me. And maybe, you know, it wasn't a conscious choice. Maybe that was just how that book came to her. But I thought it was really interesting. Do you happen to know what the pitch is for the adults?
- [50:52]
B
I don't. I know that I listened to an interview with her and she said that when it came out, a lot of people said like, oh, it's so funny. It's so funny. And so then she felt a lot of pressure to make the next book funny, which she said was like the surest way to make sure it's not funny. I would assume it's kind of in the same vein. I think it's like about a bunch of rich people.
- [51:12]
A
So I'm reading this in real time and it seems like it's an affluent suburb, a group of teenagers. The main character is a smart and snarky teenager who gets involved in a dangerous relationship.
- [51:26]
B
Okay, teenagers. Yes, I do remember hearing that. First of all, I am going to go read that book because the whole trajectory of her career as we're talking about is really inspiring to me. And to see the evolution of someone's work, I think is so fascinating. But I think one of the things that I loved about this book so much is I've realized I have a. I don't really read ya, but I have a very soft spot in my heart for like elevating the emotions of teenagers. You know, I think that there's something so powerful about being a teenager and the intensity of emotions and experiences and how often they are dismissed and the fact that many of them, if not all of them, make us who we are as adults in one way or another. So I just think she writes teenagers very well, and it makes me that much more excited to read her first book. But I am curious. Would you read it?
- [52:18]
A
Probably not. Probably not.
- [52:20]
B
I feel you do love rich teens.
- [52:22]
A
I do love rich teens, but I feel like I have enough on my plate that didn't compel me. I'm not as tempted to go further back in her back catalog.
- [52:31]
B
That's. There's a lot of books. I understand that, but I love that.
- [52:35]
A
For you, because I love the feeling of finding an author in a book that you like so much that you then feel compelled to go tackle their entire backlist. Like, I've had that. That feeling only a handful of times in my reading life. You know, I had it with. I don't even know if we had the podcast yet, but with Laura Dave, when I read her book 800 Grapes, before she started writing thrillers with Katherine center, with Ellen Hildebrand, those are ones that really come to mind of authors that I read, something I loved so much that I was like, I need to read everything you've written. And with Ellen, I have not read everything yet. She has quite a big back catalog.
- [53:11]
B
I mean, you have a lot. I have.
- [53:14]
A
That's gonna take. That's a big project.
- [53:16]
B
But this many years, I feel like.
- [53:18]
A
There'S no better feeling as a reader. So I'm thrilled for you to go back and read the adults.
- [53:23]
B
I also think. I don't know about you, but as a writer and a reader, there's a weird comfort in this idea that, like, you can write a book where someone will read it and not like it, but their next one, it'll be one of your favorites of all time. You know, sometimes it feels like this. There's this sense of, like, oh, if you didn't like my first book, you're not going to give my second one a try. And so I'm doomed. You know, the readership circle is getting smaller and smaller, but it can also get bigger and bigger. And I think we forget that really quickly when everything in publishing feels so intense. And so, you know, every. You have to have everything all the time or you're going to fail. And it just goes to show you, like, there's a lot of different paths to success, I guess.
- [54:03]
A
Yeah. Shall we get out of this book club and into some ED matter.
- [54:09]
B
Yes.
- [54:14]
A
Tell me what you're obsessed with.
- [54:15]
B
I am obsessed with One Trick Pony Peanut Butter. Have you seen this peanut butter in the world?
- [54:21]
A
No, I've never heard of it.
- [54:22]
B
So I got it on a whim, I went to this. It's sort of like a. Oh, wow.
- [54:26]
A
It's kind of like a whole packaging. I. Yeah, I think it's coming. It does. It does look like a toy. Like, there's a labu in there.
- [54:34]
B
It literally does. It looks like it's made for children, which it probably is. So I saw this at Guido's, which is kind of like Whole Foods. Smaller Whole Foods. It's very fancy, lots of health food, and for whatever. Well, you know what reason you're looking at the packaging. I saw this packaging, and I just thought, I am interested in this. And essentially, what makes it different is it's like just peanuts and salt. But unlike other natural peanut butters, you store it in a way kind of lid down, so it doesn't get that weird oil separation. I don't know if you've ever experienced that. But it's. It's not pleasant.
- [55:06]
A
It's gross.
- [55:07]
B
And I really wasn't expecting much. And in fact, I kind of was like, olivia, are you serious? Every time I saw it on the counter, like, the. The weird. It looked like a. A children's toy. And then I tried it, and if this stuff isn't the creamiest, silkiest, most glorious, beautiful peanut butter I have ever seen, I don't know what they did. It looks fake. It looks like a food ad when I open that thing, and I can't recommend it enough, I want to try the crunchy version. I doubt it will be as satisfying because when you open the lid, you flip it over, it does this. Like, it almost looks like soft serve. It's.
- [55:46]
A
I'm sold. And now looking around my kitchen to be like, do I have anything I can toast to? Put some peanut butter on. Not that I have this.
- [55:55]
B
Oh, yeah. I've been doing a little bit of this on Sourdough, and my friend brought me back this raspberry jam from France, which I'm sure it's just the same as American raspberry jam, but it's French, which kind of makes you feel better. Oh, it's so good. Hits a spot. Anyway, one Trick Pony. You guys knew what you were doing.
- [56:12]
A
Are you willing to accept an assignment?
- [56:15]
B
Potentially.
- [56:17]
A
So on their Instagram, it appears they also make something called Caramel Crunch Peanut Butter Popcorn.
- [56:24]
B
Oh, Man. Wow. I'm intrigued. I'm gonna try all of their peanut butters. They also have. They have the crunchy one, and they have one other one that's, like, more creative.
- [56:34]
A
Well, if you see this peanut butter popcorn, it looks like it's kind of elevated. Cracker Jack. I am very interested to know your review.
- [56:46]
B
I'm on it. I'm on it. What are you obsessed with?
- [56:49]
A
Okay. I have changed my blush in a way that I did not see coming for me. So I got gifted some products by Westman Atelier, which I. I love their highlighter. I've used it for years. I used one of their blushes in the past, and for the past. I don't know how many years, few years, I've been wearing kind of a bright, almost hot pink blush. I like one from Rare Beauty. That's the liquid blush. And so I got this one, and it's in the color coquette, and it is almost like a baby pink. The most pastel, soft pink blush. And I looked at it, and I thought, this doesn't match my, like, complexion, my vibe at all. It's almost something that I would say for you, for, like, a blonde makes more sense. I don't know what sorcery it is. I put it on on a whim. I'm obsessed with it.
- [57:52]
B
I've heard good things about this blush. Is it a powder or liquid?
- [57:55]
A
It's a cream. It's like a stick blush, which I like. I don't like a powder blush.
- [57:59]
B
Yeah, that's my favorite kind.
- [58:00]
A
It's the color of it. It's just like this baby pastel pink, which is something I would never think would look good on me.
- [58:09]
B
I can kind of see it because it's kind of like Belle, like Beauty and the Beast, you know, dark hair, rosy cheeks.
- [58:16]
A
But I don't know. It looks so natural. It looks so nice. I'm obsessed with it, and I never would have chosen it for myself.
- [58:23]
B
Oh, well, I'm glad. I'm glad you like it.
- [58:25]
A
Talk to me about books. What are you reading?
- [58:27]
B
I'm gonna say that I finished this because I have only a few pages left, and I've been reading it for months. And that is the Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver. It is, I don't know, 600 pages. It is so long. I felt like I was reading the dictionary every night. But it became kind of this very soothing, almost like bedtime story, esque experience when I would crack open the library book, which is, like 30 years old every night. And I grew to really enjoy it. There's not a lot of plot. It's about a family in the late 50s, early 60s who moved to what at the time is referred to as the Congo. I don't think it is anymore, but as missionaries and the father is this absolutely horrible, abusive whack job, for lack of a better word. And it's all about them living this very different life than the one that they're used to in America. And there's three or four sisters and they all have very different personalities. It's multi pov. There is a lot going on and in fact there are so many characters in POVs that I found it really hard to keep track of them at certain parts. But man, Barbara Kingsolver is just as we've talked about, a superstar. Incredible. The line level writing I was just so inspired by. I did not like this anywhere near how I felt about Demon Copperhead. But I think it's worth reading if you just like me, read it for months and months and just read, you know, 10, 20 pages every single night. At one point I, I was only a fraction of the way through the book and I looked and I was on the, the 200th page. You know, I like I'd only read like the tiniest little section. But anyway, so I said I wanted to read that this year and I read it.
- [60:13]
A
I would not put money on this. However, I think there's like a 50% chance that I read this in high school in an English class.
- [60:25]
B
That's possible.
- [60:26]
A
When everything you're describing sounds so vaguely familiar to me and I just looked up.
- [60:31]
B
I think a lot of people read.
- [60:32]
A
This and it looks really familiar and I think I might have read this in high school.
- [60:37]
B
It's very possible. It's a very high school book. I don't know how any high schooler would get through it. Only before phones. It's so long. It's so long and it's so dense and there's such little plot. There is a very haunting scene about killer flesh eating ants that take over the village which will haunt me for the rest of my life. So thank you, Barbara. But I learned a lot as a writer, I think. So it was worth it to me all those months. What have you read?
- [61:02]
A
I read this book. I was down to the Wire. I haven't had time to read anything else and I am so excited now to read a book this weekend. I feel like I don't feel like myself because I just have not been reading that much recently because I've Been in draft mode and reading my own book and then I had to jump into this. So I am so excited to read more because I feel like somebody's going to come and take away my podcast soon if I don't read a book for pleasure.
- [61:32]
B
I was debating. I was like, no book again. I. I think we get her out of here. Yeah, it's time to go.
- [61:39]
A
I know. I'm waiting for the police to come.
- [61:41]
B
I'm just kidding. What's on top of your tbr?
- [61:44]
A
The Wilderness by Angela Flournoy.
- [61:46]
B
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- [61:47]
A
Which is something that I cannot. I've had an arc for forever. I cannot believe I haven't read it already, but I'm so looking forward to that book, which also just got long listed for the National Book Award.
- [61:59]
B
Yes. I have not seen more buzz for a book and I don't know when. Definitely I think the buzziest book of this year maybe, other than like, you know, atmosphere and all that. I want to read this too.
- [62:09]
A
Well, do you know a book that I think the buzz is coming for? I think it is our October book club pick, which is going to be Heart the Lover by Lilly King, which probably is not coming as a surprise to many of you because I've been saying since I read it over the summer that I just, I need to talk about it with everyone. This book blew me away. I think it's probably my favorite book I've read this year and we need to make it a book club pick. So this is by the same author as Writers and Lovers, which came out in 2020. And this book follows a college aged girl in, I want to say, maybe the 80s or early 90s, who is involved in a love triangle in college between these two guys that kind of like blows open her intellectual world and then the ripple effects that that has through her adult life.
- [63:13]
B
I'm excited about this one.
- [63:14]
A
The book is short. It's a 256 page little bonbon of a book. It is funny, it is sexy, it will make you sob. It has everything I want in a book.
- [63:28]
B
I'm excited. I was gonna read this one. I read Writers and Lovers recently. As we know it was a like, not a love, but I think this one might be a love.
- [63:36]
A
So, gosh, I hope so. We will be reading this and discussing it the last Wednesday in October and hopefully we found one that is fully in the Venn diagram.
- [63:47]
B
Either way, it'll be a good discussion. Well, if you want to talk to us about any of this or this book or any book you can join us in the Baton Paper Facebook group which is under Baton Paper, also the Baton Paper BFF Group, formerly known as Geneva. It is an app or you can access it on your desktop. That's under Bow and Paper Podcast. The link is in our show notes. You can visit us on Instagram at boutonpaper Podcast. You can visit me on Instagram Olivia Mentor I'm also on Substack Olivia Mentor and you can pre order my second novel Little One right now and I would be so thankful if you did.
- [64:25]
A
I am on Instagram ecamfreeman and my newsletter is at beccafreeman substack. Com and we will see you next week for some things.
- [64:36]
B
Bye.