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- [00:18]
A
Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.
- [00:22]
B
And I'm Olivia, Mentor.
- [00:23]
A
And today we're talking about a book topic that I don't think we have broached in the almost eight years of this podcast, which is a whole episode about non fiction books.
- [00:33]
B
Yeah, maybe we should do a disclaimer that we are not experts. But I do want to say that we did get Rex from all of you, and we have a wide range of nonfiction picks to choose from, so we're going to hit a little bit of everything.
- [00:48]
A
I'm a little intimidated about this episode because nonfiction is so not my lane. It's somewhere where I don't feel like I have any authority to recommend things as a book person.
- [01:00]
B
Well, that's why we call them recruits. So I think it'll be good also to have nonfiction recs from us who are not necessarily nonfiction readers, because I think a lot of people don't read that much nonfiction. So if we're recommending these books, you know that they're going to be good, even if nonfiction isn't your thing. Like us.
- [01:19]
A
All right, Olivia, get me into some highs. Tell me your high this week.
- [01:23]
B
My high was on Saturday night. I went to dinner with some friends, and then we went and saw Wuthering Heights. And I've seen so many takes on this movie, so many endless takes, and I didn't really know what to expect. I like Jacob Elordi, of course. I'm but a human woman. Just a human, really. That's. That's all it takes to love him and appreciate his being. I was gonna say his breadth. Like, his size. That sounded so strange. I feel like I'm objectifying him too much. Anyway, I like him, but, you know, I wasn't like, this is my movie of the year or anything. I do love Wuthering Heights. Haven't read it in its entirety since high school, probably. And I had seen so many people say they didn't like it, and I get why. I get why. It really does have the feeling of like you're watching a Pinterest board for two and a half hours. Like, it's just a lot of vibes. Not great writing at all. Not really a plot. I don't even know necessarily if Margot Robbie and Jacob Elordi had chemistry in my eyes, and yet I enjoyed it so much because it was just so clear that Emerald Fennell had a vision here. Like, she just had all these colors and textures and fabrics and music and settings in her mind, and she just put them together and created this movie. It does feel like a mood board and. And less like an actual story. But I still found it very inspiring in a lot of ways. And I loved the soundtrack so much. So it was just really fun.
- [02:58]
A
I've been meaning to see it and I haven't gotten around to it. I haven't made it a priority whatsoever and I don't know if I will. I feel like it's almost. There's too many takes around it where now I feel salty about seeing it. Oh my God. One of my favorite things I saw about it was critical review. And one of the pull quotes from it was Emerald Fennell boiled down this book to ask the question, what if a hot guy was at your house?
- [03:28]
B
I mean, that is actually kind of just the vibe. But it's such an interesting movie watching experience. There are scenes that really kind of. It's not that I was blushing, I was just like, oh, oh. I wasn't expecting this. Like, there's this one scene at the beginning, people will know where Margot Robbie is looking through the floorboards and seeing something kind of scandalous. And then Jacob Elordi. I don't even want to give it away, but it's honestly maybe worth it just for that one scene. I. It was great and I. I don't even really like Charlie xcx, but I loved the songs paired with the settings and the scenes and the colors and the fog and the mist. Like, I just, I heard that the
- [04:09]
A
music very Florence in the Machine. Even though it was Charlie xcx, it was.
- [04:14]
B
And it was also interspersed with like traditional Irish sounding music, which, as we all know, I kind of really like. So it was this weird balance that really worked for me, but it really, really inspired me creatively because, I don't know, there's something about seeing someone put together something very weird and very divisive that I really like. I'm just like, she just went for it, you know, she just went for it. And I do recognize she's like a Nepo baby and all that stuff and whatever. But yeah, I think it's worth seeing.
- [04:45]
A
You're pulling me closer to the I should go see this while it's in theaters. Side of the.
- [04:50]
B
Even if you hate it, I think it's worth it just because it is. It's just interesting. It's just way different than anything I've seen. But there's a lot to hate too. So there's a lot of gross stuff as well. Anyway, tell me about your high.
- [05:04]
A
My high is that I can finally tell everyone about my book, my second book, and you might have already seen this on Instagram, but I'm not going to shut up about this. I'm so excited. I've been sitting on Secrets for three years, so I can finally tell you about my book too. We announced the COVID of it, which you can see on my Instagram. It's called Back Where We Started. And it is about Katie and Drew, who are childhood best friends turned first loves who are bonded by their big ambitious dreams that are far too big to accomplish in their small Pennsylvania hometown. She wants to be a famous actress akin to a Julia Roberts. He wants to be the president. And fast forward to today. And Katie, who is now known professionally as Blair Banks, actually is a famous actress, which is a ride that's required her changing far more about herself than just her name. And Drew is, as you might have guessed, definitely not the President. And the two are out of touch. And Katie has to go home for the holidays for the first time in many years because her sister is pregnant. And the two of them run into each other and realize that their spark is still alive and well. And more thematically, the book is very much about people pleasing. It's about our treatment of female celebrities in our culture. It's about the hamster wheel of achievement and kind of how one thinks about having it all. I would compare it to, I've been kind of pitching it as Notting Hill Meets Every Summer after by Carly Fortune with a dash of Sweet Home Alabama. So it's very.
- [06:52]
B
Can I just say, I'm very impressed with how well you have nailed this pitch already.
- [06:57]
A
So somebody else, have you been practicing this?
- [07:00]
B
Because I'm so impressed.
- [07:01]
A
Does your publisher make you record a video?
- [07:04]
B
No.
- [07:05]
A
Okay. So for both of my books, I've had to record a video. I think I did it in December. And so I had to memorize a script, you know, introducing myself, saying what the book was about, saying why I wrote it. And so it really did help me nail the quick pitch. And so now it's just in my head.
- [07:24]
B
Gosh, maybe I should just film a video for myself just to, just to train myself next time because I find it so difficult. But you did such a great job. I mean, it sounds amazing. I knew a lot of that, but even I am discovering new things about it. Hearing you talk about it more openly and yeah, how exciting.
- [07:42]
A
And, oh, I don't think I said it's out in the US and Canada on October 13, 2026 and it will come out in the UK and the British Commonwealth, but I don't know when yet.
- [07:55]
B
That is thrilling. And most importantly, you can all pre order it right now and add it to your want to read shelves on Goodreads and tell your friends, tell your libraries, please.
- [08:08]
A
I would be so honored. It has felt so good to be able to talk about this book finally and to people have been so supportive and excited generally. But to have that be specific, to have people's energy coming towards me, being excited about the COVID being excited about the pitch, being excited about the specifics of this has been so invigorating and meaningful to me. Oh, I'm right. Before we got on, I was. I still haven't gotten through all of my DMs from yesterday and I was reading some of them and I'm just a ball of grateful mush.
- [08:42]
B
I feel like everyone listening has been on this journey with you and is just proud of you and happy for you because it just takes so much work. Any book takes so much work. And this book especially, I think has been a journey and it has been. And yeah, it's inspiring to, to see it come to fruition in this way. Is there anything about this moment that feels different than you expected? I know it's kind of like, I think there are these moments in the book process where you kind of fantasize about them, like, what's my caption gonna be when I post the COVID And you know, you think about it a lot when you're kind of in the work and I'm wondering if there's something about it being here or this, this moment being here that feels different than you thought it would.
- [09:25]
A
No, I think I was anticipating being able to share and not being able to, but I don't know that it feels different. Did something about your pre publication or announcement feel different for a little one than you expected?
- [09:38]
B
Hmm, I guess maybe it was different in the sense that I wasn't really sure if people would care as much. And so it was pleasantly surprising to see that people did care, you know, and that people just hadn't like, left or been like, no, I'm, I'm out. You know, it's not. This isn't your first book anymore. We don't care. I think that was nice, I guess. And I think also it feels as exciting as the first time in a lot of ways too.
- [10:04]
A
Oh, totally.
- [10:05]
B
There is a sense that you're like, oh, is this going to feel different? Because it's not that debut, But I think in some ways it almost feels better because it's like, oh, I get to keep doing this, you know, and I know what's coming a little bit.
- [10:19]
A
And it's been a few years, you know. My first book came out in 2023 and we're announcing this in 2026 and so that feels far enough away that this isn't normal for me. It's not like I publish a book here and it's like, oh, this is the time of year when I get to announce it and this is what happens. I'm like, oh, it still feels so special and exciting and unbelievable.
- [10:39]
B
Yeah, I think that is the benefit of having more time too, is that, I mean, I always think about like if you're in a book a year, it's just you're constantly in this, you know, it's like there's always something to look forward to, you know, there's no lull whatsoever. And so you don't get to sort of build up that anticipation. Patient again. Which is kind of a fun part of it too. Even if the wait is sometimes hard. But yeah, so thrilling. So happy for you and so happy for us all that we get to read this.
- [11:08]
A
A big year for bat on paper host books expect zero in 2027. So.
- [11:17]
B
Well, I'm so excited to read it and just to go along the journey with you.
- [11:22]
A
Thanks. More to come.
- [11:24]
B
Well, what is your low?
- [11:26]
A
Okay, so my low is I have another apartment complaint. I. I swear, I'm so happy here. This is my three week anniversary and on the whole I am spectacularly grateful and excited about this apartment and so it's not going to be like every week is a different complaint. But I do have a complaint this week.
- [11:44]
B
What is it?
- [11:47]
A
The heat is different here and it's drier. It's much drier. And I think also I'm having some stuffy nose issues and so I think I'm sleeping with my mouth open at night and every morning I wake up feeling like I have just clawed my way through the Sahara desert with my mouth gobbling the sand like a hungry, hungry hippo. And I am so dry.
- [12:14]
B
It's quite the visual.
- [12:15]
A
Yeah, that's what I'm doing.
- [12:17]
B
It reminds me of sort of like the sandworm in Dune.
- [12:19]
A
Yeah. I'm so dry. My skin too. I just, I feel so parched here.
- [12:27]
B
Oh, I. You're talking about this. But yeah, I think radiator heat. I'm assuming you have some version of that. Probably. I don't know when we use ours more, it's just the whole house feels different and Weird. And your skin feels. Or my skin feels like tight and gross and. Yeah, well, I hope you adjust. Also, we're in the. We're in the home stretch.
- [12:47]
A
I'm not fixing it at all. That's a next year problem. I'm just waiting it out.
- [12:51]
B
Right.
- [12:53]
A
We were just looking at the forecast before we started recording and there's two days in the next 14 day forecast that are in the 60s and so I'm almost there.
- [13:02]
B
Yeah. Every year I get to this. I mean, I always talk about this, but I always just remember how good those first days of spring feel when the sun is out and you roll your windows down. Skirt flowers are starting to skirt day in college. Oh, no. But you've talked about this before. Yeah. The first day you could wear a skirt.
- [13:19]
A
Think about this.
- [13:21]
B
Yes, it's a spiritual skirt day for me.
- [13:23]
A
Yeah.
- [13:24]
B
And also there is a new Noah Khan album that's coming out around the same time that these warmer days should hit here. And I'm just. That first day when I'm driving around blasting that watch out world with a fountain Diet Coke.
- [13:39]
A
You're going to be unstoppable.
- [13:40]
B
I'm going to wind in my hair, free as a bird. Watch out world, I will be so happy. Wow.
- [13:48]
A
What about you? Do you have a low?
- [13:49]
B
I don't. I am really, really loving being home for a bit.
- [13:55]
A
Amazing.
- [13:55]
B
So no lows.
- [13:57]
A
Well, let's take an ad break and let's get into this episode.
- [14:05]
B
This episode is sponsored by macmillan Audio. Just the other day I finished reading Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hawkhouser and I kept thinking while I was reading how magical this book would be on audio. It is atmospheric and fantastical and the prose is also just so gorgeous. This book is pitched as Cersei meets Bridgerton, which is a good way to think about it, but I think the easiest way to explain it is that the plot is a Cinderella retelling where we are relearning everything we thought we knew about the evil stepmother character. It really is very different than anything I have read in years and I just flew through it. I think I read it in roughly 24 hours. It just felt really cinematic. And that is another reason why I think this would be so good on audio.
- [14:58]
A
Even absent this ad. You are probably the third person I have heard rave about this book this week. I think this is going to be everywhere. This audiobook is also read by Bessie Carter, who's best known for her role as Prudence Featherington in Bridgerton. Plus, this book has been blurbed by some major names, Glennon Doyle said it was destined to be one of the biggest books of the year.
- [15:23]
B
This book just went on sale on March 3rd and just as Becca said, I am pretty certain that there is going to be a lot, a lot of buzz around this one. There already is, really, so be sure to download it as soon as possible. Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hockhauser read by Bessie Carter, is available now. Wherever you listen to audiobooks,
- [15:48]
A
You put me first in here and I'm feeling insecure.
- [15:57]
B
Well, just know that our picks are sandwiched between very, very good listener picks. As I said and as I was going through these voicemails, they really first of all, I hadn't heard of the majority of these books. Second of all, they run the gamut from celebrity memoir to self help to sports related to reality TV focused. Like literally there's everything. So between us and them, I think we will provide something helpful. And I do want to hear your picks as well, Becca.
- [16:27]
A
So before you hear my picks, I'm you know, doing a little soft shoe in here. Can you talk to me a little bit about what's your relationship with nonfiction reading?
- [16:37]
B
I don't really have one. Okay, I. I will pick up something if it uniquely appeals to me in some way or if buzz has reached such a point that I just feel like I need to be part of the conversation. But it's not that I don't like it generally. I've had wonderful experiences with non fiction. I've read nonfiction that I recommend to everyone which we'll get to those picks. But I just it's not something I am drawn towards naturally. It's a little bit like romance for me in that way. It's like when I find one I really like, I really love it and I'll tell everyone about it, but it's just not never going to be like the first thing I'm drawn to taste wise. What about you? Why do you feel self conscious about your picks?
- [17:20]
A
Well, because I identify as a serial nonfiction abandoner. I always have good intentions but I have poor follow through. Like I should not admit this, but I DNF'd not for lack of enjoyment but just never finished Becoming by Michelle Obama. Like I oh really?
- [17:38]
B
I did enjoy that one a lot.
- [17:39]
A
I always have really good intentions and I think what I've learned is is that the way that I need to consume nonfiction is generally on audiobook and that's the way to get me to do it. However, I don't prioritize a lot of Audiobook time in my life, I think when I go for walks, especially during the week when I am in the process of writing something, I try to listen to music. That's like a very creative time for me. And so I don't listen to audiobooks then. And then when I'm commuting, I tend to use that for podcast listening. And so the best time for me to read a nonfiction audiobook is usually if I'm traveling on the car to the airport, going through security, waiting for my flight. Like, I don't always listen to an audiobook then, but that tends to be my most reliable time. And so it's just not something that I have in my routine.
- [18:37]
B
Yeah, I'm the same way. It's not part of my routine at all. Although I do really like listening to Glamorous Trash, which is a podcast, recapping nonfiction books, mostly memoirs, which I'm like, olivia, you could just read them because you really enjoyed these episodes. But for some reason, having someone dissect it for me just feels good. But I don't know, maybe one day I'll get more into it.
- [19:01]
A
Yeah.
- [19:02]
B
Well, tell me your picks.
- [19:03]
A
Okay, so I picked five because you picked five. I didn't know what the brief was here.
- [19:10]
B
I thought 5 was a nice round number. I don't know. Great. Odd. But anyway, go on.
- [19:16]
A
So two of them. The first two of them will not be surprising to anyone whatsoever. The first one is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, which also I think is probably the book that I reread the most times. And I. I cannot overstate the impact that this book has had on my life. It came out in 2015. I read it for the first time probably in 2015 or 2016. And at that time, I did not conceive of myself as a creative person. I thought that I was a numbers person. I was a left brain person. I was an analytical person. And this book, which is Elizabeth Gilbert's kind of meditations on creativity, on the writing process, really fundamentally changed how I think about myself. There's an anecdote very early in the book about a friend of hers who I think, if I'm remembering correctly, is maybe a lawyer and in her 40s or 50s, decides to take up figure skating because it's something that she used to do when she was younger and she was never good enough, that she was never going to go to the Olympics. And she restarts doing it in her 40s and 50s, and she doesn't have any aspirations to do it professionally. She just wants to do it because it brings her joy. And how that becomes kind of a highlight of her weekly routine. Recontextualizing what it means to be creative and not needing to be the best at it or not needing to be professional at it really changed something in my brain and how I think about it. And now that I do do this professionally, there's so many times throughout any given year that I think about random tidbits from this book. Like, I think all the time about this story about Liz Gilbert writing this book that she ended up abandoning. And then Ann Patchett writing a book that was eerily similar to it. And just the way that she laughed at that as, oh, the universe is funny and tricksy, as opposed to being mad about it or comparing herself to Ann Patch. I think about that one all the time. Think about. There's this quote in it where she says something to the effect of, if I'm not creating something, I'm destroying something. And I think about that all the time. When I get out of practice of writing or sitting down and doing something, I think about that. I don't know if it's as true for me as it is for her, but it's just like the act of continuously doing something creative is worthwhile in and of itself. Yeah. This book has been, like, tremendously important to me.
- [21:54]
B
Yeah. You know, I think I never finished this. Oh, but it was. It's weird is like, I still remember really liking it. I remember underlining a bunch of stuff. I remember taking notes. I still remember one of the quotes about measuring your worth by the commitment to your own path. So maybe I am also an abandoner of nonfiction, But I did really love it as well. It's a special book, for sure.
- [22:17]
A
Yeah. I was in this practice of rereading it every January for three or four years, and I haven't done it the last couple of years. Haven't felt the need to. I felt maybe like after reading it so many years in a row, the text was less surprising because more of it had sunk in for me. But it is something I think about often, and I'm so grateful to how it opened up my own perception of myself.
- [22:41]
B
Well, what's your next pick?
- [22:43]
A
My next one, Not a surprise. Open Book by Jessica Simpson, which I think is the peak celebrity memoir for me. This is what I'm always chasing when I read a celebrity memoir. And I think that she cracked a code for me in that she was so forthcoming in a way, like she was telling shit that people didn't know about because she wanted to. And there was something so addictive about that book. I went into this book having no feelings about Jessica Simpson. You know, I grew up in that female pop star rat race era, where it was Britney Christina, Jessica Mandy Moore. And I always really identified as, like, a Britney fan. And, you know, I was aware of her music, but I had no feelings about her as a person. I. I watched the Newlyweds. I have a really strong memory of her having this spin out when she was turning 23, and her saying to Nick Lachey saying, 23 is halfway to 25, and 25 is your late 20s, and that's old. And I've thought about that at the time. I remember thinking about that when I was turning 23, when I was turning 25, when I was in my late 20s. Now I just look and laugh at it, but, like, that really stuck in my head also.
- [24:02]
B
I'm sorry to conceptualize being married at 23 is so wild to me.
- [24:06]
A
Well, she was really religious and so.
- [24:08]
B
Right.
- [24:09]
A
And it was no sex before marriage, so that was her whole thing.
- [24:13]
B
Yes. Wild. I read this too. I just. 20, like, it's just such a jarring. I can't even imagine.
- [24:20]
A
And I can't say how much of this book has to do with the time I read it. I read this in the really early days of COVID lockdown, and I would just walk. I would go on these long walks because I had nothing to do and I was so anxious. And I would just listen to the audiobook of this. And I developed such a strong parasocial relationship with her. But I'm like my best friend Jess. Jess and I go on walks together and oh, my God, it's so interesting. She was in these circles in. I guess it would have been like the late 90s or early 2000s, where she was auditioning for the Mickey Mouse Club and she was with young Britney Spears and Ryan Gosling and Justin Timberlake. She was like. I think she was on tour with Beyonce when Beyonce was doing Destiny's Child. There's just so much great early 2000s stories in it. I don't know. I'm like, I'm Team Jessica. I want nothing but good things for her. I do have a group chat with Grace and Katie Storino that basically the only thing we text on it is when new pictures or stories about Jessica Simpson come up and we send them and we kind of like, try to assess how she's doing.
- [25:32]
B
I get the idea. Maybe not great, but correct me if I'm wrong, there is she doing well,
- [25:39]
A
I'm gonna plead the cup.
- [25:41]
B
Okay. Okay.
- [25:43]
A
But I want to tell you that I want nothing but good things for her.
- [25:46]
B
Right. I'm with you there. Nothing. Nothing but good things for Jessica.
- [25:49]
A
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Like, such a good memoir. And this is why I'm really excited for Brandy's, because I feel like Brandy is a similar level of fame to Jessica Simpson, where I'm like, will it be equally juicy?
- [26:04]
B
We'll have to see. It's coming out soon. All right, what next?
- [26:07]
A
Okay, so my next one is this. I guess one might call it an oral history kind of. It's called I'll have what She's How Nora Ephron's Three Iconic films Save the Romantic Comedy by Aaron Carlson. And I read this, I guess kind of indirectly as research for back where we started. The character is an actress. She wants to be a rom com type actress akin to a Julia Roberts, Meg Ryan type. And so, I don't know, I thought this might just be interesting color for what it was like on set, or I'm not sure. And I don't know that anything informed my book whatsoever. But I loved this book. It goes through the making of When Harry Met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, and you've got male. And all three of them are movies that are so iconic. I feel like, personally, I feel the strongest affinity for you've got male. But hearing the history behind them and the twists where they almost didn't get made or that the content of it was different. Especially with When Harry Met Sally, there was almost an ending where they didn't end up together. And then Rob Reiner, rest in peace, met his wife while they were making that movie and all of a sudden felt much more romantically optimistic and they changed the ending.
- [27:31]
B
I love that. This sounds great.
- [27:33]
A
Oh, it was so good. It was so fascinating. And those movies are movies that I've seen so many times, so I feel like I have. They're burned in my brain. I have the reference point. So to hear some of the behind the scenes, it's like the VH1 behind the Music of these movies.
- [27:50]
B
I would love that.
- [27:51]
A
Yeah. Great audiobook. I really enjoyed this.
- [27:55]
B
Okay, well, tell me your final two picks.
- [27:58]
A
My fourth one's a wild card. I don't know how much I've talked about this before, but I feel like I can now because I'm talking about my book. So as research for my book, there is a plotline involving Edie Sedgwick and Andy Warhol. My character in the book has recently starred in a biopic where she plays Edie Sedgwick. And this is a time in history, 60s factory, New York. Everything surrounding Andy Warhol that I have, like, a deep personal fascination with. I don't consider myself a fan of historical fiction or anything like that, but, like, there's two eras, and one is 60s era Warhol Factory, and one is 1920s era, like jazz Age New York, that I'm just deeply compelled by. And so this is a biography of Edie Sedgwick, and it goes very deep. It starts, like, maybe two generations before her in her family. And she is from such a big family, but also a very idiosyncratic family with a lot of mental health issues before there was a vernacular for speaking about them or treatment for them. And the book is fascinating. It goes from kind of her family history through to her death, and it obviously focuses very heavily on the era where she was Andy Warhol's Girl of the year, 1965. This was a pleasure to read. And it's so rich of. You know, she has this reputation as just kind of like, this pretty model. And, like, there's so much history there. I don't know. I thought it was fascinating.
- [29:40]
B
I know nothing about Edie Sedgwick, so I'm very interested in this plot line in your book, but also in learning more, because I just. I don't. Nothing.
- [29:51]
A
I had this friend in college who was obsessed with Edie Sedgwick, and she was really obsessed with her style and dressing like her. And I think, you know, I was impressionable at that age. And I was like, oh, yeah, she is really cool. And it's so shitty because there's this movie, but Harvey Weinstein produced it. So it's like, oh, like he's not starring in the movie, but he's benefiting from the movie.
- [30:12]
B
So it's like.
- [30:13]
A
It's like, where does that leave us? But there's this movie called Factory Girl that I remember watching when it came out that I was so obsessed with. And, yeah, she's just always a figure. Andy Warhol, too, is always a figure that I've just been really compelled by.
- [30:28]
B
Well, what about your final book?
- [30:30]
A
My final book, actually, this whole exercise was really interesting for me because I went through both my current book tracker and then I went through all of the books I've read in Goodreads, kind of like trying to figure out what my five were that I would recommend. And so it. Not only these books, but it just brought up a lot of book memories that I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. But I think my last one is a memoir called no one tells you this by Glynis McNichol. And I think I read this two years ago. I bought it and started reading it like back when it came out, which might have been a few years before that. And it deals with her turning 40, is a big plot point in it and being single, being childless. She's dealing with caring for her aging parents who live in Canada. And she's kind of going back and forth to New York and she's a journalist, she's a writer. And I just, I thought this was so compelling because it's not a story that you hear or read and she's not, you know, she obviously has thoughts on being single and being childless, but it's not a lack in her life. And I found this so empowering to read her experience. And I, you know, have continued to follow her and read her work. She has a follow up memoir called I'm mostly here to enjoy myself about right after kind of vaccinations came out after Covid, she went to Paris for a summer to eat food and have sex and just enjoy life. And yeah, I'm almost kind of compelled to revisit this one, meaning no one tells you this as I approach my 40th birthday later this year. But I thought this was so. I feel like empowering is such a overused and it's a word that almost kind of lacks meaning because it gets used in so many ways that aren't particularly empowering. But I do feel like this was empowering in the dictionary meaning of the word to read and to see a model of somebody who's in her 40s, thriving in different areas of her life and also working through really difficult things, thinking about caring for aging and ailing parents. But yeah, I really loved this and I've heard from many podcast listeners who, who read it since and really enjoyed it too.
- [32:49]
B
Oh, good. I think I have either one or two books by her on my shelf and I just have never gotten to them because of my, you know, nonfiction issue, as we've now learned. But I've heard really good things, as you were saying, so it sounds, sounds like a very refreshing read.
- [33:05]
A
This one's really great on audio specifically because it's feels almost like a podcast.
- [33:12]
B
Oh, that's appealing to me. Yeah, that's appealing to me. Yeah. Yeah. I might revisit this one.
- [33:17]
A
Yeah. See if there's a time when you're like, I don't know, I think when I first read it, I was too far away from 40. And I read the first couple chapters and I think I read it hard copy in a paper book and it just didn't grip me. But then the listening to her narrate it on the audio really did it for me.
- [33:35]
B
Okay. Yeah, that sounds like something I would like to listen to on the car quite a bit. So, yeah, I'm gonna look into this.
- [33:41]
A
Okay. Should we listen to some listener voicemails?
- [33:44]
B
Let's. Hi, Becca and Olivia, this is Katherine. I wanted to tell you about one of my favorite nonfiction books, Cue the Sun by Emily Nussbaum. It's about the invention of reality TV and how it got to be where it is today. I love books about the history of TV and movies and this one is so good. I'm not even a huge reality TV
- [34:06]
C
person, but I found this endlessly fascinating. I learned so much. And Emily Nussbaum is a great TV critic and writer.
- [34:16]
B
Her other book, I Like to Watch is also great. So just big recommend.
- [34:23]
C
Hi, Becca and Olivia. One of my favorite books of last year was We Might Just Make It After All, My Best Friendship with Kate Spade. It's by Elise Ahrens and it's a memoir of her friendship with Katie Brosnahan. They created Kate Spade together. It is so funny and sweet, inspiring. It's really, it has sad moments and it's really joyful. It's about when they met in college and highlights their friendship living in New York and just the hustle of making Kate Spade what it is. It's really at its core, love story. It made me laugh out loud and cry. The relationship between Lisa and Katie is just singular and life affirming, but so relatable. I just didn't want it to end. It was one of my favorite books of the year. Thank you. Bye.
- [35:09]
A
Hi, Becca and Olivia. This is Katie calling From outside the D.C. area with my number one nonfiction book recommendation. And it's by the journalist Richard Lloyd Perry called People who Eat darkness, published in 2012.
- [35:24]
B
And it tells the story of a true crime, the disappearance and murder of
- [35:29]
A
a young British woman who was living in Tokyo, Japan. And it gets into obviously the investigation
- [35:36]
B
and then the trial, but also just
- [35:38]
A
is a really interesting look at Japanese culture and one that I would highly recommend. Hope your listeners enjoy. Thanks.
- [35:49]
C
Hi, Becca and Olivia. This is Gillian from Los Angeles. I'm a longtime listener, first time caller, but when I started to call in for nonfiction books, I had to call in with not necessarily my all time favorite nonfiction book, but certainly a current obsession that I think listeners of adult people would like. My current obsession is a book called Tranquility by Tuesday by Laura Vanderkam and it's sort of under the self help category of nonfiction. It's kind of more about goal setting and time management and I found her approach really easy to implement and interesting and inspiring. A couple of examples are she encourages her followers or listeners to plan one small adventure and one big adventure each week to plan your weekend time so you're not just ideally sitting around on Saturday without a plan and a reminder that if you do something three times a week, it's a habit. So even if your goal is to exercise seven days a week, if you do it three days a week, you're still doing it and sort of the don't let the perfect be the end of the week. So I really loved that and have recommending it to everyone and anyone I know. So Tranquility by Tuesday by Laura Vanderstamp Thanks. Hold the pause. Bye.
- [37:10]
B
Let's take an ad break and then we will get into some more book picks. This episode is sponsored by Quince. These days I am all about quality over quantity and you may remember that one of my goals this year is to keep track of every single thing I purchase. And let me tell you, there have been moments where I'm regretting this because it is very tedious, but I am doing it. And it is strangely satisfying to keep notes on which clothing items in particular are worth it or not in the end because I always make a note next to the item like oh, I shouldn't have done this or I should have done this or regretted this or didn't. And what I have really learned the hard way is that if it is something that is not well made or versatile, it is usually not worth it to me. And that's why I love Quince. The the fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful and the pricing actually makes sense.
- [38:08]
A
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- [38:58]
B
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- [39:27]
A
All right, Olivia, you are in the hot seat. Tell me your five nonfiction picks that you've brought to share.
- [39:36]
B
Yes. So I'm starting with probably my most can't shut up about it nonfiction book that I can remember reading in a really long time. And I've talked about it here a bunch, so I'll be brief. But that is A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhurst. This is the story of a husband and wife whose sailboat capsizes because a whale hits it. So we're starting out very dramatic. And then they survive.
- [40:03]
A
What time period are we in here?
- [40:05]
B
This is in 1973.
- [40:07]
A
Okay. I think when you've pitched this before, I maybe in my head made up that this was much more 1800s.
- [40:14]
B
No, no, no. This is in the 70s. It's this very interesting man and woman. And so the story is a little bit about how they meet, how they come to be, how they choo to have children, how they end up on the sailboat. And yes, essentially their boat capsizes and they survived 118 days in a four foot inflatable raft in the Pacific Ocean. A four foot inflatable raft in the Pacific Ocean.
- [40:44]
A
And so is Sophie Elmhurst a biographer or is she one of the people who is on this raft?
- [40:51]
B
No, no, no. She's telling their story of their life and how they survived and what happened afterward and their personalities and it's just absolutely unbelievable. I love survival stories, but hearing about how they caught fish from this raft and turtles and seabirds and the things that they saw and the psychological task of surviving, like, I can't ever stop thinking about the fact that they were just, they had no solid ground under them for three and a half months like that alone, that feeling, the feeling of always being damp, like your body always being in some level of water, of sunburn, like, I just, I push this into everyone's hands because it's just the most remarkable story ever. I cannot believe that they survived this. And when you look at the photos of the Raft. It's even more wild. Like, I read it and then looked at the raft and my jaw just dropped. I cannot believe it.
- [41:48]
A
I feel like your 2025 was your year of seafaring books.
- [41:55]
B
Yeah. Yes.
- [41:58]
A
I really trust your.
- [41:59]
B
I'm still in that era.
- [42:00]
A
I like, I feel like you're in authority on at sea survival stories.
- [42:06]
B
It's all I want to think about. Honestly. I'm reading a book right now that it has elements that are kind of similar to Wild dark shore, like being at a research lab on the edge of the ocean. And it's a little different because it's Antarctica, but, well, I guess wild, dark. Supposed to be. Yeah, I guess there's more ice and less water, but anyway, I just can't get enough of it. I can't get enough of. You're on a distant island. You're in the ocean. I just can't. But there's a reason it's so popular. And I both read this and listened to it. I thought the audio was a little bit boring, to be honest. But I did listen to it, like, the day after I had read it. So maybe I'd feel different if it was fresh.
- [42:48]
A
It's very hard for me to do this episode because I'm not going to commit to reading more nonfiction. But the story sounds fascinating.
- [42:53]
B
You should just look up a photo of the raft.
- [42:56]
A
Okay.
- [42:56]
B
If you don't, that, I do right now. Google a photo of this raft.
- [43:00]
A
How do I. How do I find it? A marriage at sea raft.
- [43:04]
B
If you Google a marriage at sea and you look at the images, it's like the third one. They're sitting in front of it.
- [43:10]
A
This looks like a pool toy one might have for a child.
- [43:14]
B
Yes, yes. And they survived in that. That's wild for. It's just so crazy.
- [43:20]
A
I was not picturing that it had coverage over the top.
- [43:23]
B
Yes. It has a little hood, but just wow. And, like, how they were when they were rescued. Like. Anyway, I. I can go on and on, but that's a good pick. So my next pick is one of the first nonfiction books that I can remember reading and loving. And this is a book that I listened to right around the time that I was getting more deeply back into the habit of reading regularly. This is probably in 2020. I would say maybe 2019. And this is. Maybe you should talk to someone by Lori Gottlieb, who is a therapist. And this book is about her experience as a therapist, but also about her therapist. And it's just a wonderful story of, like, human Experience and emotions. And it's so beautiful. Like, I can remember sobbing, listening to the audiobook and just. It having such a profound effect on me and recommending it to everyone. I haven't read it now in quite some time, so I'm not sure how it has aged. But at the time it was just really, really meaningful. And I think it's like what made me actually go to therapy, which then changed my life. So, yeah, I really recommend this one.
- [44:32]
A
I remember this being everywhere when it came out. This was such a popular book. And I remember it was at one point getting an adaptation, but that's never materialized, has it?
- [44:42]
B
I don't think so. That's actually a good point. You're right. I'm not sure. It's something. I still remember one of the scenes of, like, saying goodbye to a client and knowing that you're not going to hang out with them or see them again. And that's such a weird, narrow human experience, you know, it's like you have this relationship with this person who you've told everything to, but you don't really know that much about them. You're not supposed to. And then you leave. And it's so sad. But that's the whole point of therapy is that eventually you outgrow it, you know? So anyway, I thought it was just a really. A nice portrayal of. Of that. That human experience.
- [45:20]
A
Yeah. What do you have for us next?
- [45:23]
B
The next one is actually one that I have read and I have been thinking about rereading a lot lately, and that is 1000 A Writer's Guide to Staying Creative, Focused and Productive All Year Round by Jami Attenberg. And the really cool thing, I very
- [45:36]
A
easily could have picked this too, but I saw it was already on your list. I adored this. And it's something I read with my eyes on Hard Copy.
- [45:45]
B
Yes, same. And I'm so glad because I really, really want to go back to it and take notes. But. But what's really cool about this book, I think, is that it's like a collection of letters partially from really famous writers, and each one is a little bit different. To me, it kind of reminds me of, like, reading the best sort of writing focused substack essays all in one place, which is my favorite thing. And I just remember feeling so inspired by some of the passages. And yeah, I really want to go back to this.
- [46:17]
A
This is something that I have at times kept on my desk while I'm in a particularly unmotivated writing period. And I will just flip to different essays. I think I might have tabbed this book, too. So I might just, like, go to a page that's tabbed and just read an essay at random. Just the varied experiences of different writers where some of it I read, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. This is exactly. It's as if you came into my head and are explaining what it's like for me, and some of them are so foreign to me in a way that I find really inspiring. I really enjoyed this book, too.
- [46:50]
B
That's a great idea to keep it on your desk. Maybe I'll copy you. I definitely want to find this and go back to it.
- [46:56]
A
I need a bigger desk so that I can keep things around.
- [47:00]
B
Yeah, well, I have a huge one, and it's just. It's very fun, but it's like I'm looking around. It's chaotic, but you're more organized than I am. Okay, so my. My next pick is not my type. One Woman versus a President by E. Jean Carroll. We had ejing on the podcast, and. And we read this book for that episode. Had it not been for the interview, I would have never, never picked this up, never read it in a million years. There is exactly zero appeal to me in reading anything that is remotely about politics. And because this story is all about Eugene Carroll holding Donald Trump accountable for him sexually assaulting her in the 90s, I believe it just felt too close to, you know, the daily horror story we. We are living in.
- [47:52]
A
Well, also, I felt like having watched the news coverage of this trial, I very much felt like, what is there that I don't know about this story? And I was so surprised the angle she took on it.
- [48:04]
B
And.
- [48:04]
A
And then I did feel like I was both adding richness to that and adding so many things behind the scenes that I didn't know. I found the drama around her legal team and, like, the prep for the trial to be fascinating.
- [48:16]
B
I totally agree with you. And for me, this is a book I would recommend to everyone. And it was super important in my life because I think that, like many of us, I'm sure Donald Trump has become such a character, you know, like a horrible, evil character. And we're so used to, to a certain extent, him just being horrible all the time and making dangerous, evil, like, inhumane decisions on the daily. And I think there was something that was super important to me about reframing him as it was almost like it reminded me of how much of a monster he is in a super important way. Like, I think we've all just gotten to this place where we're so used to him just being around and ruining everything. And it made me realize, like, how important it is to remember that he is just a human being and a terrible one at that. And if Eugene Carroll, who was sexually assaulted by him and not believed by so many people, can take him to court and win and still stand up for herself and still tell the truth and still fight back after everything, then there's no reason why we should allow ourselves to become numb to it and to accept him as just like, oh, you know, haha. Like, oh, this is horrible. Our lives are horrible. He's horrible. Like, it's. No, he's a real threat. And even if it seems impossible to get rid of him on the public political stage, like, we should still be fighting for that. So I found it really inspiring and I'm so glad I read it. And I wouldn't have otherwise.
- [49:57]
A
I agree with you. I thought her perspective on it, interviewing her, I mean, in the book as well, but interviewing her, her outlook and her fire for justice and taking him down was so much different than I maybe expected. And I found it so, so inspiring.
- [50:14]
B
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. If you read it, listen to our episode afterwards because I think you would feel the same way, or I hope you would. And finally, I mean, everyone has read this, I think, but there's a reason. Oh, really? Yeah.
- [50:27]
A
I never got around to it because I felt like it felt. We'll say what it is.
- [50:31]
B
Yes. So it's I'm Glad My mom died by Jennette McCurdy, which is her memoir about being a child actor and having a very controlling, abusive, problematic mother who eventually dies. And yeah, I mean, maybe like you, I just. It had been everywhere. I was like, okay, I get it. And I ended up listening to it on audio when we were painting our house and we just needed something. And as soon as I started listening to it, I was like, oh, I completely understand why people talk about this book differently than they talk about so many other memoirs and why this one is really kind of rising above the rest. It's just so powerful. It is so vulnerable. It's so human. The writing is amazing. Like, it's just so much better than the pitch of it can really do it justice. And, like, there's a reason why it's so widely read.
- [51:27]
A
Yeah, I think I maybe avoided it because I knew that it was going to be dark. I. I find sometimes other people's real life trauma. I'm like, oh, I don't need to pile this. It's interesting. But I'M like, I don't need to pile this on top of my lived experience. I don't know. I think that I will watch the show if it makes it to air. There's adapting it and Jennifer Aniston is set to play her mom, which I think will be very interesting. But I don't know, I just, I feel like in this time I cannot do too dark or too heavy.
- [51:59]
B
I get that. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really valid. It is quite heavy. But yeah, if that's something you feel like you can handle, you're out there and you're wondering or you've seen this everywhere and you're like, I get it. I think it's still worth the read. Let's listen to a few more listener suggestions, please.
- [52:19]
C
Hi Becca and Olivia, My name is Emily. I'm calling with a nonfiction book recommendation. I recently listened to Disney the Untold Story of the Rise and Fall of Disney Channel's Tween Empire by Ashley Spencer and it was just so good. She starts with the late 90s and xenon and even Stevens and then goes through everything. She talks about Raven and Zack and Cody and Hannah Montana and High School Musical and Celia Gomez and Demi Lovato and the Jonas Brothers and I just felt like I could perfectly map the book onto my childhood. It was so basaltic. I listened to the whole thing in two days. It's super interesting to hear about behind the scenes of all that stuff and all of the business calculations that were being made. And I just think if you are also a millennial who is very invested in Disney ch when you were a kid, it would be really interesting to you. So I haven't seen many people talking about it, so I wanted to call in and recommend Bye.
- [53:15]
B
Hi, this is Tara from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. One of my favorite recently read nonfiction books is Mark Hoppus's Fahrenheit 182. You don't need to be a fan of Blink 182 to really enjoy this book, but growing up in the 90s and the 2000s around their music, it was just a really insightful, fun behind the scenes look at the band and Mark's life in particular.
- [53:42]
C
Hi Becca and Olivia. My name is Ashley and I'm from Plano, Texas. And that's actually where my favorite recent nonfiction read takes place. It's called Homeschooled by Stefan Block and it was actually Jenna's book club pick in January. This is a memoir mostly focused on Stefan's childhood and youth and his relationship with his mother his mom pulls him out of elementary school and starts homeschooling him in an unconventional way, but then he starts public school again in high school and has a totally readapt to both social and educational norms. The relationship with his mom is central to the whole story, and while there's a lot of funny parts, there's also a lot of sad and impactful moments that really affect who he is now as an adult. It's a quick, interesting read and I love anything that calls out 90s and early 2000s nostalgia, so I really recommend it. Congrats on both of your books this year. I just finished Little One and loved it so much. And Becca, I can't wait to read your book. Bye.
- [54:36]
A
Hey Becca and Olivia, it's Anna from Oklahoma. I'm calling to recommend my favorite nonfiction
- [54:42]
B
subgenre memoirs by pro and former pro women runners.
- [54:46]
A
I don't think you have to be
- [54:47]
B
a runner or follow professional running for these books to be intriguing. For example, legendary marathoner Dina Castor's book Let yout Mind A Memoir of Thinking
- [54:57]
A
My Way to Victory, not only outlines
- [54:59]
B
Dina's journey from cross country phenom to
- [55:03]
A
Olympic medalist, but details her strategy of
- [55:05]
B
using running as a meditation on nature and life.
- [55:08]
A
Then there's Kara Goucher's book the Longest
- [55:11]
B
Race Inside the Secret World of Abuse, Doping, and Deception on Nike's Elite Running
- [55:15]
A
Team, which dishes about her career with her now disgraced Nike coach. A few similar titles on my TBR are DEZ Linden's Choosing to Run, Laura
- [55:25]
B
Fleshman's Good for a Girl, A Woman Running in a Man's World, and Kira
- [55:29]
A
d' Amato's Don't Call It a Comeback.
- [55:30]
B
Love the POD and Yalls books and substacks. Keep them coming.
- [55:34]
A
Thank you. Hi Becca and Olivia, this is Karen from Florida and I wanted to share the book Solito by Javier Zamora. This is a memoir recounting his journey from El Salvador to the US alone when he was just nine years old to reunite with his parents. It is beautifully written and completely heartbreaking and I've thought about it frequently over the last several years since I've read it, especially as I watch ICE in the news lately.
- [56:02]
C
I hope you guys check it out.
- [56:05]
A
It really is a wonderful book and thank you so much for everything. Bye.
- [56:10]
B
Let's take one more ad break and then we will get to our end matter. This episode is sponsored by wayfair. I know both Becca and I are very much in the Home Project Dream Space lately, which personally is one of my favorite places to be because it is the fun part where prices don't really come into play yet. But that's actually why I love shopping on Wayfair when I'm looking for home items, because it is so easy to shop with a budget in mind. And this is really not true everywhere, let me tell you. So whether it is marble, tile or a very specific floor lamp, both things that I have purchased on Wayfair both during this partnership and before Wayfair has delivered when I'm searching for something specific and affordable.
- [57:00]
A
So I shopped Wayfair for my last home and I'm absolutely planning on doing the same for my new home. I got this fantastic full length mirror where I was looking for something really specific to fit into my already decorated apartment. And using Wayfair's filters was just made it so seamless to find something that was the right size, the right shape, the right price. One thing I'm really thinking about using Wayfair for in my new home is I would like to replace the lighting in my bathroom and potentially also the medicine cabinet. And I was browsing Wayfair the other night. I usually think of them for furniture, I guess, and I was so surprised by how many options they had in both of those categories.
- [57:37]
B
Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W A Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair. Every style, every home. Well, what is your obsession?
- [57:59]
A
So my Obsession is the TV show love story. John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette on FX. Are you watching this?
- [58:09]
B
No, but I am seeing the obsession from afar.
- [58:15]
A
So I had been seeing this everywhere. Grace told me to watch it. She said go into it expecting it to be bad, but that she loved it. And I something about that endorsement, I was like, I don't want to watch something that's gonna that I have low expectations for. But I just got sucked up by the cultural obsession. And on Tuesday night I got in bed early. I have a TV in my bedroom for the first time in 15 years. And it's feels really delicious to get into bed and watch tv. And I turned on the first episode. Olivia. I am so hooked on this show set in the 90s. It's very nostalgic in a way. It feels very Sex and the City. The style in this is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. It's really making me wish I had long hair. I am so taken with this show. I ended up watching all four episodes that are out in the same night, I just gobbled them up. And I was watching with my phone in my hand, not because I was scrolling, but because I was going on Wikipedia to Google all the people and to see about them. I. Oh, my gosh. I am loving this. I'm very excited. I think there's the fifth one came out yesterday, and I haven't watched it yet.
- [59:25]
B
I've been hearing good things. It seems like everyone is really into it.
- [59:29]
A
So good.
- [59:31]
B
I wonder how they're gonna handle their death.
- [59:35]
C
I.
- [59:35]
B
It makes me a little nervous.
- [59:36]
A
Well, they definitely handle it because the first episode opens with them getting on the plane.
- [59:42]
B
Oh, wow.
- [59:43]
A
And then it flashes back.
- [59:45]
B
Wow. Okay. Yeah. I don't know if I'm gonna get to this, but maybe. I don't know. Everyone's watching it. Maybe I will. I'm kind of out of things to watch right now.
- [59:54]
A
I'm also just really interested to see how this impacts fashion trends, because I think it will. And I think some of it, you know, people are sourcing pieces that are Carolyn Bassett inspired based on what exists. But I wonder how it will impact runways going into future collections. It is just. Oh, my God, it's so chic.
- [60:16]
B
Interesting. Interesting. I've been seeing a lot of takes on this, on everyone's obsession with her style, and that's been fascinating to sort of scroll through.
- [60:25]
A
Also, the casting of it is so phenomenal. Looking at pictures of Sarah Pidgeon, who plays her compared to Carolyn Bissette. Oh, my gosh. And also that Sarah Pigeon was previously brunette. And I would not have had the vision to say, yes, she will make a perfect Carolyn Bassett. But she does.
- [60:43]
B
That's so interesting. I thought she was. Has always been blonde. I had no idea.
- [60:46]
A
No.
- [60:47]
B
No idea. And the guy really does look like him.
- [60:50]
A
He does. The guy was a model before he wasn't an actor.
- [60:53]
B
Can you tell?
- [60:54]
A
A little. But he's so. He. Like, he's so dead on the look of him that. Yeah, it's fine. The acting's totally passable.
- [61:03]
B
Okay. Okay, fair enough. What about you?
- [61:06]
A
What are you obsessed with?
- [61:07]
B
I'm obsessed with Jessie Buckley, who is an actress and is probably going to win the Oscar for Hamnet. But I have been seeing a lot of her, like, kind of press tour and her award speeches and stuff, and I just find her to be the most charming human being. Like, every time she speaks, it's just, like, infectiously happy and interesting. She seems completely herself in every setting I see her in. Like, just so warm and happy and smart and interesting. I think her style is really cool. Like the dresses she's been wearing. She just wore this really cool, like, corset sheer gown to. I think it's called Bride, Bride of Frankenstein, the new movie that she's in that premiere. But I just, I love her. I think she is so cool. I want to be her. And it's just very clear to me that she's just like herself, you know, that she's the same now as she was when she was just a kid growing up in Ireland. And that is. I mean, of course I could be wrong, but that's just really cool to see. And also her performance in Hamnet is unbelievable. But. But I just think she's so cool.
- [62:19]
A
I have not seen Hamnet, but I have really enjoyed seeing interviews with her and Paul Mescal and just like their mutual respect and admiration for each other. They just have the type of like, platonic chemistry that's so fun to watch in interviews.
- [62:34]
B
I totally agree. Yes. Well, what have you read?
- [62:37]
A
I've read a bunch of things. I have been on a tear, so the first thing I read was Nina and June by Genevieve Wheeler, which doesn't come out until December. It comes out December 8th. And I read this for a blurb. That's why I'm reading so far in advance. And this is a friendship novel, which, you know, is very much my jam. It's about two polar opposite best friends who meet in college and become each other's person. And it's told over like 10ish years. It goes into their early 30s and they have had a massive falling out that you kind of like, don't know what it's over. And I found this to be, at turns, like, incredibly delightful. There's so many good pop culture references of the. I guess it would be like the early 2010s when they're in college, they go on a lot of, like, trips and adventures that kind of reminded me of the vibe of people we meet on vacation. And then in the later chapters I would just be like, deliberately vague. It was incredibly heart wrenching. So I really enjoyed this as a entry into the friendship fiction canon and especially for people who are eager to read about friend breakups or like tumultuous friend situations, I think this will really hit the spot for you.
- [63:58]
B
I can't wait to read this.
- [63:59]
A
Oh, also, great cover. The second thing I read was a book called A Love Story by Anna Maria Volkova. And this was previously a fanfic. And it, I believe, might have Been self published and now it's gotten picked up and they're republishing it from a big five. It's a Dark Lena fanfic. So it's from Shadow and Bone, the TV show with Ben Barnes, which I was not familiar with. And so, okay, I'm struggling with how to describe this because it's going to sound like this. I'm giving it a bad review, but I'm not. But I think you just need to know what you're getting into because I thought I was getting into something very different. The reasons I ended up liking it were not the reasons I expected to like it. So it is a very spicy age gap romance. It's about this 23ish year old, she's a graduate student in economics and she ends up in this relationship with a 40 something year old hedge fund manager. And it's compared to normal people meets 50 Shades of Gray, which I think is right, but not for the reasons I expected. So it really reminds me of, you know, that part in Normal People where Marianne is abroad in college and she's having a lot of like really dangerous sex with the wrong people. It's that section of normal people.
- [65:28]
B
Okay.
- [65:29]
A
And then there is a BDSM component, but it is nothing like Fifty Shades of Grey. And so I read this thinking it was going to be a very spicy romance and it was. But the sex in it was for the most part like very scary to me. Like it was not something I enjoy, it wasn't sexy to me, it wasn't something I enjoyed reading. What I was really compelled by was the emotional story in this of the female main character's journey and also to some extent the combative relationship between the two characters. To be fair, there was a sense of this that I felt like I was watching Industry where it was so much about economic theory, where I was like, I'm not actually sure what you're talking about and I like that you have complete opposite opinions and you're fighting about it. But do I know enough about economics to know what you're talking about or have my own opinion? I don't. So I really liked that aspect of it and I really liked the emotional journey. I am going to be so fascinated to see how this one does because this one is, it's really dense. The amount of economic theory and opinions on global power in is dense.
- [66:47]
B
There's a lot happening there.
- [66:48]
A
A lot, a lot happening.
- [66:50]
B
A lot happening.
- [66:51]
A
A lot happening. But I felt incredibly compelled by it. And then the last thing I read was I read Play It Again by my friend Georgia Clark and this comes out June 16th. So this is the palate cleanser to this. This is like a really fun, rompy, queer romance. And Georgia writes ensemble romances. So it's always told from multiple points of view and there's multiple love stories in it. So this one is about a group of four people who met as teenagers when they were cast in a community theater production of Rosencrantz and Guilderstein Are Dead and they are called back to help save the local theater now that they're in their 30s. So it's like 20 years later and they star in a revival. And there were romantic relationships between multiple of the cast members. So they're also kind of reconnecting with each other after 20 years as adults and kind of like finding their way back to each other. I thought this was so fun. The writing was so sparkly and like fantastic and it reminded me of Schitt's Creek. It's not as over the top as Schitt's Creek, but like the theater, the small town ness of it, like the quirkiness of it, it was really fun. I think this will be. This is just like a great summer read.
- [68:13]
B
Well, what a nice selection of things.
- [68:16]
A
I know, I really read this week.
- [68:18]
B
Yeah, you really did, but a lot for the tbr.
- [68:21]
A
What about you? What did you read?
- [68:22]
B
I am reading currently like six books. I'm not really sure how I got into this.
- [68:26]
A
I'm a very non monogamous reader right now.
- [68:28]
B
I really am more than probably ever, which is a little frustrating because it obviously takes me much longer to finish things. But I do have one thing I finished which is Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hawkhouser. I already mentioned this briefly, but yeah, this is the. Is the retelling of the Cinderella story from the evil stepmother's perspective. And I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about this. I really wasn't. But I ended up really enjoying it and it gave me so much to think about. As we all know, I am a lifelong ever after fan. So it gave me a lot to think about in that context because there are elements, of course, them both being Cinderella stories. There are elements that are similar, but there are a few moments in this book that just really like I immediately understood why it was like such a splashy acquisition and like such a huge deal and you know, will probably continue to be everywhere because there are just some moments where you're like, yes, that was unexpected and that was perfect. And that goes down to, like, the language too. Like, there was some really, really powerful writing I thought that. That I wanted to underline. And so I love that about it. But yeah, it's kind of like it feels like fantasy without the dragons and the magic, you know, And I really liked that about it. It was very transportive in that way.
- [69:51]
A
So I have two things to add here. So first of all, also, the author is the founder of Piecework Puzzles, my favorite photo puzzle brand, which I found so fascinating. And then the second thing is that I was initially not really attracted to this book because I don't love things that are historical, necessarily. And that was the vibe it was giving. And Grace read this a couple of weeks ago, and she immediately was like, you will like this. You need to read this. So I'm kicking it back onto my TBR on her recommendation because I think she's probably the person who maybe knows my reading taste best or is like my best predictor of what I will like. But yeah, she said the same thing about thinking of it more like fantasy than historical, which sold me it's not
- [70:38]
B
historical because there are quite a few things that you realize that it's a world that could not exist in a lot of ways, but there's no magic in the traditional sense. But in terms of costumes and fantasy and fairy tale, like, it gives that very much.
- [70:55]
A
Okay.
- [70:55]
B
But it has a seriousness to it as well. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was different than I thought it'd be in a good way.
- [71:02]
A
Okay, well, I mean, we just gave you a ton of racks, but if you're in need of more, we have our March Book club pick, which I'm so excited about, which is so Old, so Young by Grant Ginder, another friendship fiction novel. So this is about a group of six friends from college, and it's told from kind of their early 20s through their mid-40s. And it's told over the course of five parties. So that's the only time we see these characters. It starts with a kind of shitty New Year's Eve party in their early 20s. There is a destination wedding. There's a now I'm questioning if it's a 35th or a 40th birthday party, but, you know, some kind of milestone birthday party. There's a Halloween party in the suburbs, and you get to see these characters kind of age and how their friendships grow and change over the years. And I just could not help but mapping people I knew in real life onto this. I found it to be so accurate to friend group dynamics. And I enjoyed this so so much. Ellen Hildebrand said that it was a big chill for our time, so it's a very good like middle aged novel too. I'm so excited to discuss this.
- [72:17]
B
Me too. And if you would like to discuss anything we have talked about today, give us even more nonfiction recs. You can join us in the Bat and Paper Facebook group in the Bat and Paper BFF group formerly known as Geneva on the Bat and Paper Instagram under Bat on Paper podcast and I am on Instagram and substack liviamentor. You can buy my book Little one or My Book's Such about influence wherever you get books. And you can pre order Becca's book
- [72:47]
A
right now and you should yes, I'm on Instagram Freeman. My newsletter is at beccafreeman substack.
- [72:54]
C
Com.
- [72:54]
A
Check out the newsletter. I talked about the story of how and why we changed the title, which is not particularly interesting but I think some people will want to hear it. So I talked about that there. And yes, you can pre order my book back where we started wherever books are sold and if you're a Goodreads user, would love it if you added it on there to help people discover it or same for storygraph and I'm so excited for you to read it.
- [73:19]
B
Bye everyone.
- [73:20]
A
Bye.