Running a Bookstore with Maura Cheeks

Summary

Bad On Paper Podcast: Episode Summary – "Running a Bookstore with Maura Cheeks"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Bad On Paper
• Hosts: Becca Freeman & Olivia Muenter
• Episode: Running a Bookstore with Maura Cheeks
• Release Date: April 2, 2025
• Description: Join Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter every Wednesday for a dose of books and banter, along with interviews with women who inspire us.

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1. Celebrating Seven Years and Setting the Stage (00:18 – 06:03)

Becca Freeman and Olivia Muenter kick off the episode by reflecting on the podcast's seven-year anniversary, a significant milestone they hadn't properly celebrated due to vacation schedules.

Becca humorously remarks, "I cannot believe that it's taken seven years to do an episode about the day-to-day operations of a bookstore" (00:44), highlighting their longstanding interest in delving into the intricacies of bookstore management.

The hosts share their personal highs and lows for the week:

• Olivia's High: Experiencing a moment of inspiration while editing, where she solved multiple problems simultaneously. "It's like, you know when you do something when you're editing and it feels like putting a bow on a package and tightening it." (02:07)

• Becca's High: Anticipation of her upcoming trip to Paris and Bordeaux, emphasizing the joy of exploring new places and indulging in good food and art. "I'm so excited to go on a trip. I'm taking off work. I'm not working at all while I'm there." (03:06)

• Olivia's Low: Dealing with frequent power outages caused by strong winds, impacting her white noise machine and daily routines. "Our Power goes out constantly with the slightest breeze." (05:03)

• Becca's Low: Stress over packing for her trip, especially regarding weather unpredictability and shoe choices. "I'm stressed about packing for this week... I do feel like we're still in sweater weather." (04:02)

2. Sponsor Segment: Nuuly Clothing Rental (06:03 – 08:23)

The hosts transition to a sponsored message from Nuuly, a clothing rental subscription service. Olivia shares her appreciation for Nuuly, stating, "Nuuly makes it really easy to experiment with different styles and not be afraid that it won't fit me or I'll only wear it once." (06:11).

Becca adds her personal experience, highlighting how Nuuly's diverse selection allowed her to curate a vibrant wardrobe for her upcoming trip to France without the commitment of purchasing new pieces. "The great thing about Nuuly is that you get your choice of any six styles each month... Plus you can always buy the items you love at a discount." (06:56)

3. Interview with Maura Cheeks: Owner of Liz's Book Bar (08:23 – 47:15)

Introduction to Maura Cheeks (08:23 – 10:09)

The spotlight shifts to guest Maura Cheeks, author of "Acts of Forgiveness" and owner of Liz's Book Bar in Brooklyn.

Becca introduces Maura: "Liz's Book Bar imagines the country has just passed the nation's first reparations bill for black families." (08:23).

Maura’s Inspiration and Bookstore Genesis (10:09 – 11:15)

Maura shares her childhood dream of opening a coffee shop inspired by visits with her grandmother to bookstores like Borders. This vision evolved into merging a coffee shop with a bookstore, culminating in Liz's Book Bar.

• Becca: "You called it Liz's Book Bar in honor of your grandmother, which I thought was so sweet and lovely." (10:09)
• Maura: "It's been really nice to see the reactions of my family and the community to the store having my grandmother's name." (11:02)

Launching the Bookstore: Steps and Challenges (11:15 – 16:43)

Maura details the arduous process of starting her bookstore:

1. Financial Planning: Securing an SBA loan with the help of a business advisor from Pace University. "The first step was getting an SBA loan... It took about seven months to a year." (11:28)

2. Training and Mentorship: Gaining operational insights by working at Book Club Bar and utilizing resources like the bookstore training program from Paths and Associates. "It's an intense operation that you don't realize how operationally complex it is until you're in it." (15:12)

3. Inventory Management: Understanding the nuances of book ordering frequency and shelf management. "I reorder books every day or every two days... we're constantly getting deliveries." (15:12)

Differentiating in a Competitive Market (16:43 – 25:04)

In Brooklyn, a literary hub with multiple bookstores, Maura emphasizes the importance of creating a unique customer experience.

• Maura: "We need the books like the Miranda Julys that are going to sell because people expect them... and also interesting books that we love." (15:46)

She highlights Liz's Book Bar’s distinct offering of a comfortable space with a bar and cafe, fostering an environment reminiscent of her bookstore experiences with her grandmother.

Inventory and Ordering Strategies (25:04 – 36:34)

Maura dives deep into the logistics of stocking her store:

• Distributors and Publishers: Collaborating with Ingram for broad distribution and directly with publishers like Penguin for better discounts. "Penguin gives a bigger discount, which improves our margins." (25:04)

• Order Quantities: Balancing between having enough copies of bestsellers and niche titles. Reflecting on challenges like understocking bestsellers, "There was a big book... I sold out on the first day." (26:29)

• Restocking Timelines: Leveraging quick restocking from major distributors while managing customer expectations. "Penguin, if you order it, it will be here in like, two days." (27:53)

Customer Profile and Bookstore Dynamics (34:54 – 35:47)

Maura describes her typical customer as literate, aged between 35-50, often professionals in publishing and media residing in a prestigious publishing neighborhood. This alignment ensures a passionate customer base that resonates with her book selections.

• Maura: "We have a mix of bestsellers and obscure literary books... customer preferences align well with mine." (35:47)

Financial Insights: Margins and Business Model (35:47 – 37:39)

Understanding the economics of bookstore operations:

• Profit Margins: "We get books at an average of 42% margin." (36:09)
• Pricing Constraints: Unlike other retail sectors, bookstores cannot alter book prices, making margin management crucial. "You can lower it, but you can never mark it up higher." (36:21)

Maura shares her strategy of minimizing costs by ordering directly from publishers to maximize profitability.

Merchandising and Display Strategies (37:39 – 39:40)

Effective merchandising plays a pivotal role in sales:

• Rotating Displays: Themed displays are updated monthly to highlight various genres and interests. "We have a little table when you first enter that's like a themed display that we rotate every three weeks or every month." (37:39)

• Impact on Sales: Well-curated displays can revive the sales of previously stagnant books. "There will be books that haven't sold for two or three months, and then they'll sell instantly." (39:07)

Author Events: Hosting and Impact (39:40 – 43:37)

Maura discusses the nuanced approach to author events:

• Curated Conversations: Focusing on meaningful dialogues rather than traditional book launches to foster genuine engagement. "We're doing it because we have a relationship with the author or we believe in the book." (40:12)

• Challenges: Balancing event logistics with the limited ROI, especially for smaller bookstores. "Author events can be challenging. They can be rewarding, but they're challenging." (40:12)

• Support for Authors: Emphasizing the importance of authors supporting bookstores that genuinely resonate with their work. "It's about making sure the bookstore loves your book." (40:12)

Advocating for Independent Bookstores (43:37 – 46:52)

Addressing competition with giants like Amazon:

• Supporting Local Businesses: Maura urges listeners to plan their reading lists to support independent bookstores. "If you can build out your reading list and just plan ahead, you can support innovative bookstores." (44:58)

• Personal Responsibility: Encouraging conscious consumerism to sustain beloved local spaces. "I really try not to order from Amazon for anything... spaces like Liz's can continue to exist because of regulars who come every single day." (46:16)

Connecting with Maura (46:52 – 47:15)

Listeners are guided on how to support and follow Maura’s endeavors:

• Website & Social Media: Visit LizsBookBar.com, follow on Instagram @LizsBookBar.
• Location: 315 Smith Street, Brooklyn.

4. Sponsor Segment: Cozy Earth (47:15 – 48:38)

The episode includes a promotional segment for Cozy Earth, highlighting their luxurious bedding and sleepwear designed to enhance comfort and relaxation. Olivia encourages listeners to utilize the exclusive discount code BOP for 40% off at CozyEarth.com.

5. Hosts' Personal Updates and Book Club (48:43 – 56:43)

Becca and Olivia share their current obsessions and reading selections:

• Becca's Obsessions:

  • Anti-Obsession: Disappointment with the "Frozen Sour Fruit" trend, which didn't meet her expectations despite its popularity. "It's too sour. Like, it's painful." (50:44)
  • Rewatching Lost: Discovering that actor Ken Leung, who plays Miles on Lost, is also Eric on Industry. "It's like one universe where he was a psychic on this magical island and then got out of that game and then went into high finance." (51:18)

• Olivia's Obsessions:

  • Severance Finale: Anticipation and mixed feelings about watching the finale, contemplating the experience of viewing it solo versus with others. "I'm kind of feeling like I might just wait for the show. Is it gonna be a show or the movie?" (54:07)

Book Club Pick: (55:13 – 56:43)

The hosts announce their book club selection for the month:

• Book: An island-themed novel set near Antarctica featuring the Salt family managing a remote research station. The plot thickens when a woman washes ashore, unveiling twists and emotional narratives. "It's beautiful. I cried." (55:13)
• Discussion Date: Last Wednesday of April.
• Engagement: Listeners are encouraged to join the Facebook group on the Geneva app and follow the podcast on Instagram @atonpaperpodcast.

6. Conclusion and Farewell (56:43 – End)

The episode wraps up with hosts expressing their enthusiasm for the insightful interview with Maura and their anticipation for the upcoming book club discussion.

Becca: "Olivia, that interview was a dream." (48:43)

Olivia: "It was. Are you plotting something?" (48:43)

Becca: "I'm fascinated by the things I didn't know about what is kind of an aspect of my career." (48:58)

Listeners are invited to subscribe, follow on social media, and join the community discussions to stay engaged with future episodes and events.

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Notable Quotes:

• "You can plan for years, but I think every bookstore is different in terms of the volume they're doing all their reordering." – Maura Cheeks (15:12)
• "You can build out your reading list and just plan ahead, you can support innovative bookstores." – Maura Cheeks (44:58)
• "Author events can be challenging. They can be rewarding, but they're challenging." – Maura Cheeks (40:12)

Timestamp Highlights:

• 00:18 – Hosts welcome back listeners and reflect on podcast anniversary.
• 08:23 – Introduction of Maura Cheeks and her achievements.
• 15:12 – Discussion on the complexities of running a bookstore.
• 44:58 – Advocacy for supporting independent bookstores over large retailers.
• 55:13 – Announcement of the book club selection.

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This episode offers a deep dive into the operational challenges and rewarding aspects of running an independent bookstore in a bustling literary hub like Brooklyn. Through Maura Cheeks' experiences, listeners gain valuable insights into inventory management, customer engagement, and the delicate balance between passion and business in the world of bookselling. The hosts, Becca and Olivia, seamlessly blend their personal anecdotes with Maura's professional journey, creating an engaging and informative narrative for book enthusiasts and aspiring bookstore owners alike.

Transcript

[Becca Freeman]

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper Podcast. I'm Becca Freeman.

[Olivia Mentor]

And I'm Olivia, mentor.

[Becca Freeman]

And today I cannot believe that it has taken seven years. Oh, by the way, it was the seven year anniversary of the podcast on March 28th, which I will have been on vacation then, so we didn't really do anything to celebrate. But that's a big milestone.

[Olivia Mentor]

It is. It's very fitting. Cuz I am currently wearing bat on paper hat, bat on paper sweatshirt. I am merched out.

[Becca Freeman]

What a fangirl. But I can't believe that it's taken us seven years to do an episode about the day to day operations of a bookstore.

[Olivia Mentor]

I can't either. Especially because this conversation, I was like locked in the entire time. I was like, okay, I could sit here and ask you questions for a year.

[Becca Freeman]

Absolutely.

[Olivia Mentor]

So great.

[Becca Freeman]

Absolutely. So we're joined later in the episode by Maura Cheeks, who runs Liz's Book Bar in Brooklyn. And I learned a ton.

[Olivia Mentor]

Me too.

[Becca Freeman]

But before we get into that, this episode is sponsored by Nuuly. We'll tell you more about how much we love this clothing rental subscription later in the episode. But you can take $28 off your first month, making it just $70 when you head to Nuuly.com that's n u u l-y.com Nuuly with two U's and use code BOP. Olivia. Becca, what is your high this week?

[Olivia Mentor]

My high is I had this moment earlier this week where do you know that feeling when you're revising and you have kind of like multiple problems in your head? Like, I kind of want to fix this. I kind of need to fix that. And then you come up with something that solves both of them.

[Becca Freeman]

Stop it. Oh my God, what a feeling.

[Olivia Mentor]

So I came up with this kind of like a little bit wacky idea and it immediately felt bright to me. I was so excited about it. I am terrified my editor's not gonna like it, but I'm gonna bask in the joy of feeling. Inspiration hit. And it's solving multiple problems for a second because it felt so good. I can't even describe it. It's like, you know when you do something when you're editing and it feels like putting a bow on a package and tightening it.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Anyway, so I was riding that high, like for a lot of this week, and I might still be.

[Becca Freeman]

I know that dead birds is a very sensitive topic on this podcast right now, but you quite literally killed two birds with one stone.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. Yeah. The phrase has taken on new meaning but yes, I think I did. So fingers crossed it goes over well. If not, at least I had this momentary feeling of confidence.

[Becca Freeman]

Amazing.

[Olivia Mentor]

What's your high?

[Becca Freeman]

My high is that when this airs, I will be in France. I'm going on a trip to Paris in Bordeaux. I have not been anywhere this year other than my apartment, so I feel like the anticipation has been building. I am so excited to go on a trip. I'm taking off work. I'm not working at all while I'm there. I'm so excited to eat baguettes and great French butter and explore and eat such good food and wine and go to a spa. Oh my gosh, I can't wait. See so much good art.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm really excited for you. I've been getting the edge to travel. My. I was looking at Italian villas the other day and I was thinking about you biking through the French countryside and I was like, I want to bike through a countryside. I guess I could here, but it doesn't hit the same. Anyway, I'm really thrilled for you. It's going to be great. What a perfect spring trip.

[Becca Freeman]

Thank you.

[Olivia Mentor]

Do you have a low to share?

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I hope I have no lows. Like I hope your email doesn't fine me. I hope I'm riding a bike through a vineyard at golden hour as you listen to this. But here in the past, I am stressed about packing for this week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Why?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, so it's going to be a little chillier than I had imagined it would be this time of year. Like it's going to be in the 50s, so I do feel like we're still in sweater weather. Also, I'm specifically stressed about the amount of different pairs of shoes I'm going to want.

[Maura Cheeks]

Hmm.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's always one fewer than you think. At least. How many are we talking?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know. I think I'm just gonna pack in a non carry on. Like I'm not even gonna try to pack in the carry on.

[Olivia Mentor]

Smart. It's less pressure.

[Becca Freeman]

We'll see. I haven't actually started to do any packing. I just have some lead up stress to it. What about you?

[Olivia Mentor]

My low is wind as an element. I.

[Becca Freeman]

If only you knew what Captain Planet was. It's wind with a V. She's like Swedish or something.

[Olivia Mentor]

She's like wynd. That actually makes it sound better. But last night our power kept going out because I'm begging Columbia county to bury the power lines, for Christ's sake, to make my life easier. But they forfuse. So our Power goes out constantly with the slightest breeze.

[Becca Freeman]

Reload all night.

[Olivia Mentor]

No, it's just really, the problem was just that I have a white noise machine. I'm a fragile soul. And so when the power goes out, the sound goes out and then I wake up cause it's too quiet. Got it. And then it just kept happening. Our alarm went off at one point because our front door came open because it was blowing so hard. It's just annoying. And the worst part, honestly, is that like, it's a beautiful sunny day right now. And it is. It feels like 25 degrees or something because it is so windy and so cold. So, you know, wind. That's my low wind.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, let's take an ad break and let's get to this interview.

[Olivia Mentor]

This episode is sponsored by Nuuly. One specific thing that I often feel a lot of guilt about is if I buy an item of clothing and I only wear it once. And of course this is never my intention. But if I am not thoughtful when I am shopping, this tends to happen. And I always feel terrible about myself when it does. And it means that it makes it a little bit harder to take a chance on certain types of clothing or trends because I really don't want to have this feeling ever again. Nuuly, however, makes it really easy to experiment with different styles and not be afraid that it won't fit me or I'll only wear it once. I've been renting clothing through Nuuly for many years now and it is really hard to imagine getting dressed without it.

[Becca Freeman]

So as you listen to this, I'm in France and I was maniacal about timing my Nuuly so that I would have a fresh Nuuly for this trip. And I ended up getting a bunch of more statement pieces. Like I got this lime green sweater. I got this like hot pink and light pink striped sweater. I got some like burgundy track pant style pants. Like, all of my statement pieces are from Nuuly. The great thing about Nuuly is that you get your choice of any six styles each month. And you can choose from thousands of styles and hundreds of brands. They have sizing up to 5x and maternity and petite sizes. And there's fast free shipping and professional cleaning, which means no laundry for you to worry about. Plus you can always buy the items you love at a discount.

[Olivia Mentor]

Nuuly is a great value at $98 a month for any six styles. But right now you can get $28 off your first month of Nuuly when you sign up with the code BOP. Just go to n u d u l y dot com, that's Nuuly with two U's and enter the code BOP and sign up to get $28 off your first month. That's N-U-U-L-Y.com Nuuly with two U's with code BOP. Nuuly subscription, clothing rental. Change your clothes.

[Becca Freeman]

We are so thrilled to be joined by Maura Cheeks, who is the author of Acts of Forgiveness, which was named a most anticipated book by Elle the Root, Real simple, and the millions. Acts of Forgiveness imagines the country has just passed the nation's first reparations bill for black families. She's also the owner and general manager of Liz's Book Bar in Brooklyn, New York. Welcome.

[Maura Cheeks]

Hello. Thank you for having me.

[Becca Freeman]

I cannot believe it's taken us this long to do an episode. Getting into the nitty gritty of owning a bookstore, because I think I'm gonna go ahead and say 75% of our audience has some type of fantasy about opening a bookstore.

[Olivia Mentor]

I would say higher. You would say higher in the 90 percentile.

[Becca Freeman]

I didn't want to overshoot, but we want to know what it's actually like. So I guess going into your backstory, like, did you always have this dream, too, or did you just wake up one day and feel called to it? Like, how did Liz's Book Bar come to be?

[Maura Cheeks]

I actually wanted to open a coffee shop first. Like, that was my dream. When I was probably, like, 15, I was like, I'm going to open coffee shop. Because I was always just going to shops with my grandmother. And we went to bookstores mostly, but we went to Borders, which was like, you know, we would get coffee and just hang for, like, hours. And so I always had this dream of opening a public space where people can just relax and meet strangers and just kind of, like, talk about books and work on their projects. So I would say, like, first I wanted to open a coffee shop, and then the bookstore just evolved. And obviously I love books and loved going to bookstage with my grandmother. So, yeah, I kind of wanted to merge the two. I would say, like, probably a decade ago, I started thinking about this, and.

[Olivia Mentor]

I read on your website, I think, that you called it Liz's Book Bar in honor of your grandmother, which I thought was so sweet and lovely. Can you tell us a little bit about her? Did you always know that you wanted to name it after her? Did it just come to you one day that this was the perfect name?

[Maura Cheeks]

I guess a little bit of Both. I mean, it felt like the right way to honor her. And she passed away when I was, I think, a senior. A senior in college. And so I feel like she's the reason I'm a writer. And so it just, I don't know, it felt like I kept, like, coming up with other names and it just didn't feel right. And so then I came up with just naming it after her, but I didn't anticipate that everyone would think that I was Lindsay, so.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, do people find that question probably.

[Maura Cheeks]

Like 50 times a day? Fair.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man.

[Becca Freeman]

Fair.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, man.

[Becca Freeman]

But what a lovely tribute.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. My grandfather's been to the store, so that's been really nice. And my mom, so it's been kind of like a nice family affair to see their reactions to the store and people in the space with it, having my grandmother's name. So it's been really nice.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's so sweet.

[Becca Freeman]

A decade ago, you're like, okay, it's a bookstore slash coffee shop. Like, logistically, what does the process entail? Like, what is step one of starting this type of business?

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah, I mean, I didn't have enough money for a very long time and I didn't really know. I didn't know where to start, to be honest. And then I wrote my book and I was sort of at this crossroads of like, I need to make money and so do I go back into corporate America. And I was working in freelancing in sort of like the marketing space, and I didn't really want to do that again. And so, you know, I'm fortunate to have a partner who does have a full time job. And I was kind of at a crossroads where I needed to figure out what to do. And so I reached out to the owners of Book Club Bar and explained that I love that place and they have been really great to me. They were really good mentors. And, you know, I explained that I wanted to open a similar concept and I wanted to get experience. And so I worked there for about a year and ask them all sorts of questions in terms of, like, how they actually opened from that experience working there. The first step was getting an SBA loan, a Small Business association loan. And from there I could sort of figure out, okay, how much money do I actually need in order to get the loan? And I feel like not everyone knows this, but the SBA offers free business advisors. And so I got paired with a free business advisor through Pace University. Who. His name's Greg Calendar. He is amazing. He's literally wired. Yeah, he's incredible. And so, like, he helped me work on my business plan and actually get the materials together for an SBA loan. And so that process probably took, like, seven months to a year in terms of, like, actually writing the business plan. I was working at Book Club Bar, figuring out how much money we needed to save in order to get the loan, because they won't just give you money and show that you are putting your own capital into it, too. And there's a bookstore training program through Paths and Associates. And so they have this, like, massive binder called how to Open a Bookstore. And it's like, financial models and, like, I mean, parts of it are a little bit dated, but it gets you into, like, the weeds of. What does it actually mean to run a bookstore?

[Becca Freeman]

Is it weird that I want to read that as somebody who just for fun.

[Maura Cheeks]

Is that on table. I don't know if. I mean, it's literally a huge, thick, physical binder that they mail you. Wow. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

I love that this exists. It feels kind of, like, magical. The question is, when you dream of a bookstore, you're like, how does that happen? Well, there is a binder out there that they will send you.

[Becca Freeman]

It feels a little sisterhood of a traveling pantsy.

[Maura Cheeks]

Like, here's this binder.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ann Patchett once had this climb. Yeah. Amazing. Is there any single part of, like, the business plan of starting the bookstore up that really was totally different than you expected, Was more difficult or more fun maybe?

[Maura Cheeks]

I mean, everything. Everything is, like, more complicated than the binder makes you think. I just, like, some logistics of, like, I didn't really understand, you know, how much. How frequently I would be reordering books. Right. And so that's like. Like, I reorder books every day or every two days. I'm going through reordering books that have sold. So we're constantly getting delivery. So even, like, that sort of volume and cadence of, like, you know, getting five to 10 to 20 boxes, it really just depends. And then having to make sure you're receiving all those books, getting them on the shelves. I mean, it's a. It's an intense operation that I think you don't really realize how operationally complex it is until you're in it. You can plan for years, but I think every bookstore is different in terms of, like, the volume they're doing all their reordering.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah, I want to put a pin in that and come back to book ordering because I have so many questions about, like, we do have a lot of gritty logistics. But before I Get to that. I'm really curious. So, you know, like, in a smaller town, there's maybe one indie bookstore in the area, like in the county, in the driving distance vicinity. But in somewhere like Brooklyn, there's so many. So how do you think about. Well, I guess first, how do you think about differentiating your store from others? And second, is it like collaborative with the Brooklyn bookstore owners or is it. Is it like competitive bookstore ownership is.

[Maura Cheeks]

So funny because it's kind of like a feel good industry, but also it's a business. Yeah, I feel like a lot of times bookstore owners don't want to talk about the business side of it. And it is a business. Right. And so it's like, I think somewhere in Brooklyn, it's interesting because it is a very literary town. And so, you know, people are looking for the bestsellers, but also interesting reads that they might not have known about. So we have a mix of both of those. So I think about that in terms of like, we need the books like the Miranda Julys that are going to sell because people expect them. Them to be in the store. And then also it's a mix of books. I love books that the staff loves. And so finding that balance has been really interesting. We're still figuring it out, really. It's like the literary bestsellers and then also the interesting books that we love. That's kind of like the sweet spot of what we're trying to figure out.

[Becca Freeman]

And am I mistaken? Are you the only kind of bookstore bar in Brooklyn? Because I know there's. There's Book Club bar, there's Biblioville Book.

[Maura Cheeks]

Club bar is opening in Bushwick Bar.

[Becca Freeman]

I didn't know that.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. And there's another store opening in Williamsburg, actually, where I don't. It's called the little Bookshop bk. I don't know exactly where they are, but they will be opening in Williamsburg. And then there's molasses books, which they're smaller. So there's a couple. I think they're smaller. So I'm definitely not the first.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay, okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

But I think in this neighbor in the neighborhood where we are, there's not a lot of places where you can sit and stay for a while. And so that makes us a little bit unique.

[Olivia Mentor]

I love a bookstore where you can sit and have a drink.

[Maura Cheeks]

And that was really important because I think, especially in New York, spaces at a premium. And I think there's a lot of bookstores in New York, but not a lot where you can sit comfortably and stay for a while. So that was important to me because that's like the basis of how I fell in love with bookstores with my grandmother. We would go in and we would stay for a couple of hours. And so I wanted to make a bookstore where people feel comfortable, like sitting, browsing a book, talking about books.

[Olivia Mentor]

I love that.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, I feel like I spent most of my high school years at the Barnes and Noble Cafe at like the Starbucks in the center of a Barnes and Noble. So I very much recognize that.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I would just like lie on the really disgusting carpeting in the aisles and like read books.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

My life is so romantic. Where is my indie film I'm the Star?

[Maura Cheeks]

So I did a little bit of.

[Olivia Mentor]

Very brief research and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you published your first novel and opened the bookstore in the same year. Is that right? Because that broke my brain to even process.

[Maura Cheeks]

I actually signed the lease like the same week that my book came out.

[Becca Freeman]

What? What a week?

[Olivia Mentor]

Talk to us about that.

[Maura Cheeks]

Literally the same week.

[Olivia Mentor]

Well, how are you alive?

[Maura Cheeks]

Well, I. I had a very long time where with the book, I wasn't heavily editing the book while I was opening the store. That part was pretty much done.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, so it was just like the promotion and the touring and whatever else.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. I think the store actually helped keep me sane though, because I was so stressed and focused on the store that I didn't have time to be stressed about my book.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. I'm curious how being an author has informed how you approach running a bookstore or. Or vice versa. How running a bookstore hasn't formed how you show up as an author.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. I was joking with my agent that I was like, every author should open a bookstore because it gives you such an interesting look into the industry. And I feel like I actually have a much better sense, like going into my second book, hopefully that I'll write at some point in terms of how the whole industry works. Because I think something that's interesting about publishing is everyone is pretty siloed and agents don't really know how bookstores work. Even the publishers to some extent, don't really know the logistics of bookstores. And then authors, especially first time authors, you're kind of in the dark about the whole process. So I don't know. I mean, I think it's helped me as a writer to just think about really what matters is loving your book and getting it in front of people who love it. And like, that's really it. Like, reviews don't necessarily translate into sales. Like they're nice to put in your bio, but it doesn't actually mean that they're gonna move copies. So I don't know. That's been kind of freeing for me. Cause I think as an author, you're like, I need to get a New York Times book review. I need to get, like, all of these blurbs, and if I don't, my book is gonna fail. And actually it doesn't really matter that much.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, I was gonna ask you. Cause my first instinct is, like, being so in the industry in a specific way all the time would, like, heighten the instinct to compare yourself to other authors and, like, you see how books are selling month to month, day to day. But it sounds like what you're saying is that actually it's kind of like the opposite. Like, you know how random it can be sometimes.

[Maura Cheeks]

And so random. Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

And so it is freeing, I imagine.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a handful of books that consistently sell really well. And it's like, awesome if you can become one of those. But it's really extreme, aware. And it isn't even necessarily quality of the book. Like, there's so much that goes into it in terms of it having that sweet spot, like James by Percival Everett. There's so many things that go into making a book a true blockbuster that it's almost out of your hands to some extent. And I don't know, people would always say this to me that really it's about the booksellers championing your book. But it is true. It's like, if you can find the people who love your book, those are the ones that are going to sell it. And it's so much more important to have a book that's consistently selling, even if it's one copy a week or one copy a month. To have that one copy a month for years is way more impactful, I think, for you as an author, as opposed to hundreds of copies, and then it never sells again.

[Olivia Mentor]

Interesting.

[Becca Freeman]

So are there books that are like Liz's book bar cult hits that you feel like you're selling that aren't books that are on the New York Times bestseller list, on the USA Today bestseller list, that are, like, more niche? Like, what would examples be?

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah, like, I always point to Scorpion Fish by Natalie. I'm gonna butcher her last name. I don't know how to say her last name. That's a Greek last name, but it's called Scorpionfish.

[Becca Freeman]

We'll link it in the show notes so people can find it.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, we'll link.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. It was published by Tin House, I think, maybe in, like, 2020. And I love that book, and we sell so many copies of it, but I don't think, you know, it's not that well known.

[Becca Freeman]

No, I've never heard of it.

[Maura Cheeks]

Right. And so I think there's a couple of books like that. Like that people who work here genuinely love. And we're always just, you know, we have really enthusiastic shelf talkers about them. Like, if somebody asked for recommendation, first book that we point to some things like that where, you know, we're selling probably, like, I don't know, many, many copies a month. Just because we really love it.

[Olivia Mentor]

It adds up.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

So going back to what we were saying about ordering books, I have many questions for you.

[Becca Freeman]

Be our binder.

[Olivia Mentor]

My first question is, how does it work when you're first opening the store and you have no book? Is it like you just have to go through some sort of a catalog and be like, I will take 10,000 of your finest books. See what the world has done to me. How does that work from day one? Like, just acquiring a large amount of books all at once and making sure that when the book opens, they're all, like, relevant to that week or that month.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. Stores do it differently. I think what a lot of stores do, which is what I did, is there's a distributor called Ingram, and they will probably hate this analogy, but they're kind of like the Amazon of, like, independent book stores.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

And, like, they are a giant distributor that has all of the books. Basically, they work with all the publishers, and they have a very large warehouse. And so they put together something called a lossy. I forget what the acronym stands for, but it is essentially you give them a breakdown of what your store will be. So I think I said my. I wanted my store to be 60% fiction, you know, 30% biography, 20% philosophy. You give them a breakdown of what your inventory will be, and they give you a recommended list of books that sell well. And then you are going through. And I mean, so. But it's national, right? So things that sell well nationally don't necessarily sell well in Brooklyn. So I went through the list and went through title by title and, like, adjusted how many units I wanted of each, like, if I didn't want a title. So that was the first step of just, like, a massive spreadsheet of recommended titles. Like, I worked with my bookshelf manufacturer to literally say, like, this is the size of the bookshelf. This is how many books I can fit on the Shelf, I think I'll have 4,000 titles based on, like, the. The unit, like the measure of the shelf.

[Becca Freeman]

Right.

[Maura Cheeks]

Math.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's. That's not something I would anticipate in my bookstore fantasy. There's no math in my mind.

[Maura Cheeks]

Oh, I know there's a lot.

[Olivia Mentor]

There's probably a wise.

[Maura Cheeks]

And you're sort of like going through and saying, like, okay, you want two face outs per shelf. So, like, then that means you have fewer titles. Like, you have to sort of visualize it. And so I don't like a lot of face outs. I mean, now I do, because I know they actually do sell books. Like, visually, I don't really like a lot of face outs. So I went through and I was like, okay, I want, you know, two face outs per shelf. This is how many books I think I can fit. And then from there, I opened up accounts with publishers and I tried to. Because Ingram gives you a lower discount than you'll get with a publisher. So I went through and tried to open accounts with, like, I open accounts with Penguin. My book is through Penguin Random House. So I had an advantage there because I, like, who do I talk to to get a sales rep? I think it's harder for people who don't have access to that. But I opened accounts and sort of like, went through and went through my spreadsheet and said, okay, which titles are Penguin titles? I'm going to transfer those over to Penguin because I get a bigger discount. And so I went through and sort of like, parsed out by publisher and then kept some with Ingram and some were with specific publishers. The first time, I almost had a mental breakdown. I think, like, I mean, there were like, hundreds and hundreds of boxes of box and just going through and trying to, like, receive all of those, learn my point of sale system and get them on the shelves.

[Becca Freeman]

A lot I can imagine. And talk to me, what do quantities look like? Like, if you have a book that is a number one New York Times bestseller, like Liz's Book Bar, I have terrible spatial relations, so I don't know how many square feet it is, but it's like a smallish bookstore. We're not talking a Barnes and Noble size store. Like, how many copies would you order of, like, a. A big book? And then, like, can you just order one or two of a book? Or do you have to commit to a certain number?

[Maura Cheeks]

I mean, I think, like, most. This is what, like, always blows my agent's mind because she's like, it looks like there's only like, one copy at Every store. And, like, sometimes there is.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Maura Cheeks]

Like, I was building my opening inventory, and I think, like, April and so, like, what was a bestseller then was not going to be a bestseller by the time I open.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh.

[Maura Cheeks]

So I was trying to figure out, like, okay, are people still going to be buying this book? And how many copies do I need? I mean, I definitely got a lot of things wrong. Like, I think we opened. Oh, my God. What? There was a big book. I think it was, like, Long Island Compromise, and I definitely didn't have enough copies. Like, I think I ordered, like, 10 copies, and I think we sold out, like, the first day. I was panicked. And then what they don't tell you is that, like, publishers also don't know what is going to be about sellers. So, like, they ran out and I literally couldn't get more copies.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. What does the restock timeline look like? Is it just, like, ordering anything from a store that it takes about a week, or does it take much longer or shorter?

[Maura Cheeks]

So, like, Penguin and Ingram are very quick.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

So Penguin, if you order it, it will be here in, like, two days.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

But the other publishers are not as quick. Anytime I'm ordering something for a customer, it's always coming from Ingram. Because it's quick.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Maura Cheeks]

And so I'm trying to get it here as quickly as possible because that. I think that's, like, the biggest thing that independent bookstores struggle with. Right. Which is, like, people don't really understand how bookstores work. And so the expectation is that if they order a book, it's here tomorrow. It's just not feasible for most bookstores. And I'd say, like, that is, like, if you can educate anyone through this podcast, it's like, independent bookstores need time to get it from the distributor and get it to them, and then either they'll notify you to pick it up in store or ship it out, but it is obviously a longer timeline than you, like, going to Amazon or even, like, Barnes and Noble where it's probably coming. They have a giant warehouse. I think that they do probably, you know, they have more copies in stock, obviously, than your average store.

[Becca Freeman]

But is it nice or annoying if somebody calls ahead and says, like, hey, do you have this book in stock? And then you can order it if it's not there, so they're not frustrated.

[Maura Cheeks]

The phone is, like, a constant struggle. I need to update the voice, actually, because we just don't have the bandwidth. Like, it's. I'm surprised it hasn't. Like, we just don't have the bandwidth to constantly be answering the phone. But our inventory is updated in real time on our website.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

So, yeah. And so people can see what we have in store and either order it. And a lot of people do. Like, they'll order it online and then come in the store to pick it up.

[Becca Freeman]

So I want to talk about the process. Now that you're open. Like, you have your assortment. How do you find out about forthcoming books? Like, what does that process look like from the bookseller side?

[Maura Cheeks]

So every season, the publishers will send massive catalogs of the books that will be coming out in the next season. So usually we're ordering, like, four times a year. Like, I just finished my summer ordering. And each publisher will send you a catalog of, like, 800 titles. A taste that's coming out.

[Becca Freeman]

And do they have a steer on it where they're like, we think this one is a big one. Okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. I mean, everyone does it differently. Like, I feel like I have a good handle of, like, the imprints that I really love. So that's where I'll start. I'll look at each publisher and say, like, these are the imprints I love, so let me, like, narrow it down and choose books based on that. And then I'll, like, go back in the wider catalog and work with my sales rep to see if I missed anything. But, yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

And is this mostly on you? Like, have you had to become an expert kind of in all genres, even ones you don't read? Or do you lean on your booksellers who maybe are like, this person's an expert in memoir, this person's an expert in fantasy?

[Maura Cheeks]

I definitely lean on the booksellers for, like, wider recommendations in terms of frontless buying. I'm honestly still figuring out the best process. I have somebody who works at the store who. She just has, like, a really good eye for things that are coming out and, like, what she thinks will be big. So she helps me work through the publisher catalog. But I don't know. I'm a terrible. I, like, don't read contemporary fiction. I mean, sometimes I do, but I don't read arcs. Like, that's just the line that I've drawn. I, like, don't read advanced copies just because I think. I mean, I knew what my book was when they were sending it in an arc, and it wasn't. It wasn't, like, what I wanted it to be yet. And so I think for me, I like the physical, finished copy of a book that an author has decided this is their product that they're Putting forth in the world for arcs. I think sometimes there's a lot of pressure to get it to a place that maybe the author isn't ready to put it out in the world, but they want to get it to bookseller and an unpopular bookstore owner opinion. It's like, I just won't read arcs.

[Becca Freeman]

Wait, I want to go back really quickly to your not psychic bookseller, but your bookseller who has like a knack for predicting the hits. What is their pony right now? Like, what would the book be that they're like, this hasn't come out yet, but I think this is going to be big.

[Maura Cheeks]

I don't even know. She's probably waiting on me to review a catalog. Yeah, I don't know. I'll have to think about that. Good girl that just came out. Like, she was like very hyped on that book.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, I can see that cover in my mind. Who's that by?

[Maura Cheeks]

Maria Ebert.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Maura Cheeks]

But like before that came out, she was very. We need like 20 copies of this book. And it has been. I mean, it's sold like pretty well.

[Olivia Mentor]

But speaking of like the. It sold 20 copies or whatever, or you got 10 copies of long Island Compromise and like you needed more. What happens if you have too many of a book? Like, how does it work when a book doesn't sell and like, you have to make room for something else? Because obviously it's not like one person buys a book, then you order a book. Or maybe it is like that. I don't know.

[Maura Cheeks]

It kind of is.

[Olivia Mentor]

Okay, good.

[Maura Cheeks]

That's simple. So like, in terms of reordering, I'm going through every day or every other day and seeing what's sold. And if a book had, like, if we opened in June and a copy just sold, I probably won't reorder it unless it's something I feel strongly we should have on the shelf no matter what. Like Freud, I think, should always be in the psychology section, even though it doesn't sell that well. Purple said don't sell. You can return them. You pay for shipping, but you can return them and you get credit. I mean, we also have access to a basement, so we have overstock in the basement. But there's definitely been books where, like, I'm not going to call out authors, but like, where like, the publisher thinks that it's going to be really big and so they're pushing you to order, you know, 12 copies and it just doesn't. You can tell almost immediately whether or not you're going to have to be sitting on those copies. And so probably within like a couple months, I'm sending them back.

[Olivia Mentor]

This makes me think of another question I have, which is you were talking about when you get that catalog, the publisher is sort of like flagged. Like, this is going to be a hot book. What do you think is the percentage that like, that is accurate to at least some degree?

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, good question.

[Maura Cheeks]

That's a great question. Only like 20%. I mean, what, like, what I mean, what they think is big. Right. May not be big for an independent bookstore and they just don't have the bandwidth to be like, let me look at your store's data and see what is actually selling and make recommendations. They're more like, this is really big internally because we spent a lot of money on the Right. And like, we think that publicity is putting a lot of resources into getting reviews. And so, like, that's how they're basing on what they think. It's going to be big, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be big for your store. And so I think when I first opened, I was like, okay, whatever you say. And now I'm like, okay, maybe it is going to be a big title at Barnes and Noble. It's not going to be big here. And there's a lot of books that like, like the Read with Jenna, like, they don't necessarily sell here.

[Becca Freeman]

What would you say is like the Liz's Book Bar customer profile? Is it younger? Is it older? Like what genres?

[Maura Cheeks]

I would say like a little bit older. Like 35 to 50. Literary fiction.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay.

[Maura Cheeks]

We're in a big publishing neighborhood.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Maura Cheeks]

So like, there's a lot of people who work in publishing in this neighborhood or in media, which is great. I mean, it's kind of like our customers preferences kind of align with mine. Awesome. I think if they didn't, it'd be a little depressing. But we're not depressing, just a little demoralizing. But I think it so happens that I think customer preferences kind of align well with mine. And like a lot of people who work here and it's sort of like obscure literary books or like. And like older books tend to do well here.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Maura Cheeks]

Which I like.

[Becca Freeman]

So talk to me about margin because I have found from being an author, the royalty side is very interesting from the author side. So an author usually makes between 5% for a mass market paperback, up to 15% for a hardcover. What are the margins like from the bookseller perspective?

[Maura Cheeks]

So when we're getting a book from A publisher, we're getting it at on average of 42%. Account.

[Becca Freeman]

Okay. For both paperback and hardcover. Yeah.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

Interesting.

[Maura Cheeks]

I mean, book selling is interesting. I feel like people know this, but they don't really understand it, which is that, like, you can't change the price of a book, which is why, like, the margins of a bookstore. So, I mean, you can lower it, but you can never mark it up higher.

[Becca Freeman]

Right.

[Maura Cheeks]

And so, like, I think people know that, but like it from a business standpoint, it makes it a little more challenging than other industries where. Right. Where if you're at a clothing store, you can always decide to charge more, and you can't decide to charge more for a buck. And so your margins are pretty much set. That's why I moved a bunch of books from Ingram to the publishers, because at scale that 5 or 6% start to add up. So I really only try and order from Ingram if it's for a special order for a customer. Anything else, I'm trying to get direct from the publisher because you get better discount, better margin.

[Becca Freeman]

I want to talk about table merchandising. I feel like when I walk into a bookstore, I'm going to look at the tables first and especially, like, the new ones. Or if you have, like, a table that's, like, best sellers for your store or something. How do you think about merchandising your tables and, like, how frequently are you changing them? Like, is that important in the store? Are you seeing a lot of sales come from that, or do people come in already knowing what they want?

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like my favorite part, but it's really challenging. I'm still figuring it out. But I think we do see a lot of sales from merchandising and from arranging display tables. We have a little table when you first enter that's like a themed display that we rotate every three weeks or every month. And it's challenging in terms of. I think that it looks better when you have a lot of copies. Like, it just, like, I don't. It makes it feel more like a bookstore as opposed to, like, a copy. Yeah.

[Becca Freeman]

It feels, like, skimpy with, like, two.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. But then it's hard from a bookstore perspective because you might not move those copies. So then it's like, planning your display enough in advance to be like, okay, I'm gonna order, like, two or three copies of each book that I think is gonna go on the display and sort of finding that balance of being okay with, like, eating the cost if those copies don't sell and knowing that you have to return them versus, like, okay, it looks good. So, yeah. So, I mean, it's fun, but it's a challenge. I'm, like, constantly trying to figure out, like, the right balance of that. My staff is amazing, and we have, like, a Google Doc and everyone puts ideas for, like, displays and for books that go in each display. So it's pretty collaborative. But, yeah, they definitely work. Like, there will be books that have not sold for, like, two or three months, and you put them on a theme display and they'll sell instantly. Fascinating.

[Becca Freeman]

I mean, that's also not surprising because I'm so impressionable with a good cover.

[Maura Cheeks]

But, I mean, part of that is, like, why are people coming into bookstores? So some of them are coming because they just want to discover something. And so it's like, if you put it in front of them and it sparks their interest, they might not have found it. If it's like, spine out on a shelf, I mean, it's fine. It's like we're all, like. Because the register is, like, right by the display table. And sometimes we'll, like, put a book out there and it'll sell instantly, even though it hasn't sold in, like, three months. And then we're all, like, laughing through ourselves. Like, what?

[Olivia Mentor]

It's like a little social experiment. What about author events? Like, how do you decide which authors to work with? Do they come to you? How does that process work?

[Becca Freeman]

This is actually I, as an author, I have no idea how this works. Like, people ask me all the time, and I'm like, don't know.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah. I wish I had known as an, like, when my debut came out what it was like. Now I feel like kind of a fool.

[Becca Freeman]

Please make us feel like fools. Tell me how this works.

[Maura Cheeks]

No, I mean, I think it's different for every store for us. Like, and as an author, like, I don't particularly love book launches. I think they're weird. Like, a lot of people haven't read the book. The author's super nervous because your book is coming out of the world. And so I think the conversation ends up feeling, like, kind of stiff and weird. So we don't do a ton of straight book launches, and that's by choice. I think that I'm much more interested in curating interesting conversations with authors and talking about craft, bringing authors together who have overlapping topics in their books, I think that creates a much more interesting conversation. And then I think most stores, when you're doing an author event, like, I think there's a fallacy that, like, you're selling a ton of copies and, like, in the grand scheme of things, like, you're not really. I mean, it's. You know, maybe you're selling maybe for, like, a very big store, you're selling, like, 100 copies of your book. Right. Like, which is big, but it's not like, it's not gonna make or break your book. Doing an event or not doing an event. I think we do events with authors, with books that we really love, and I think that comes through. And so I think for authors, making sure the bookstore loves your book is important. Publicists put a lot of pressure on authors, like, organize the events or show up in a certain way. And, yeah, it's hard when you're traveling to a store and you don't have a network in that city. Yeah, for me, as an author, I'm like, I'm only going to stores and doing tours where I know people already love the book. I don't know. It's a weird balance.

[Becca Freeman]

So on the flip side, for you as the bookstore, what is the draw of doing events? Is it like getting foot traffic in? Is it just, like, programming that your community will be interested in?

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah, it's a mix of that. I mean, for us, because we have the bar and cafe, like, the traffic is less important. I think for, like, author events, we're doing it because, like, you know, we have a relationship with the author or, like, we believe in the book. But, yeah, I mean, the roi, it's, like, very hit or miss. Right. I think, like, I don't do a ton of paperback launches because I think, like, a lot of readers are not like, oh, my God, the paperback's coming out, so you're not moving a ton of copies necessarily. The foot traffic, it kind of just depends if the author can bring their network as well. I think that makes for a good event, too. If the author can show up and be like, I'm bringing all my friends and family, and it's going to be like a celebration. I think that is a lot different than an author coming with all these expectations. And bookstores are strapped for resources, and I think authors rightfully so. You have a little bit of ego. You're like, my book is coming out into the world. Who's gonna introduce me on this panel? The bookstore is kind of, like, juggling a ton of things and then also having to suddenly be like, an emcee and facilitate all of these things. Author events can be challenging. They can be rewarding, but they're challenging.

[Becca Freeman]

Do booksellers get grids to request authors or are you like, I'm not in this game. We're only doing the ones that were friendly with.

[Maura Cheeks]

Yeah, I don't do that. Okay, they do though. You do. You do get event grid. But I'm not. I honestly, I don't. I haven't even looked at it. Like, the model for our store is not straight book launches. And so I think, you know, maybe we're missing out on some of the big, you know, like, Brandon Taylor is coming out with a new book. And I think I'm just not in the business of like trying to compete with other stores to get an author, like, but they will release like event grids to say, like, you can put it in a request to get an author to come to your store essentially, and they'll put out like, here's like the authors that are going on tour. But I mean, I think we're a newer store. We have fewer resources. Like, stores have like full on event people and we sort of like all do everything.

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm fairly confident that our audience is like primed with how important it is, like knowing how important it is to shop at independent bookstores. But I do think that for all of us, it's still easy to just like click the buy now on Amazon when we think of a book. So what is your argument that you would give people? Like, remember this the next time you're tempted to buy from Amazon instead of taking the time to go into your independent bookstore. You could just convince people in a couple seconds. I mean, it's obvious to most of.

[Maura Cheeks]

Us, but yeah, I get it because I also am a reader who wants like instant gratification. And when you have that book in your mind, you want it immediately. But I would say, like, few people need to read that specific book right at that moment. And so I would say, like, if you can build out your reading list and just plan ahead, you can support innovative bookstores in a way that like, if you care about these spaces where you spend your money really matters. Like, I really try not to order from Amazon for anything. And I know that I'm probably doing a million terrible other things, but that is something that I can control. And I feel like in this current political climate where you spend your money, every day matters. And we exist and we continue to thrive because of regulars who come every single day. And there's people who are like, I'm only buying my books from Liz's. And so I think like, you know, as much as you can sort of like plan your reading life in such a way where you can have the bandwidth to wait a week for your book. That means that spaces like Liz's can continue to exist. So like, if you think about it in that way, it's really not that big of an ask, right? To say like I'm going to wait a week for a blog.

[Becca Freeman]

So wrapping up I am curious to hear from you if you are working on another novel right now or if the bookstore is just all consuming.

[Maura Cheeks]

I am working on another book trying to figure out the right way to integrate writing into my life right now. I think for my first book I was writing a thousand words a day and I wrote every morning and now it's sort of when I have time. But yes, slowly.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, please tell us where people can find out more about the bookstore and then also about you so they can find out when this new book comes out.

[Maura Cheeks]

It's one and the same at this point, I guess. So Liz's bookbar.com is our website and then we also have an Instagram at Liz's Book Bar and We're located at 315 Smith street in Brooklyn.

[Becca Freeman]

Amazing. Thank you so much. You've been the best.

[Maura Cheeks]

Thank you.

[Olivia Mentor]

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[Olivia Mentor]

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[Becca Freeman]

Olivia, that interview was a dream.

[Olivia Mentor]

It was. Are you plotting something?

[Becca Freeman]

I don't know, May. Am I plotting to open a bookstore? Who knows? But I'm fascinated by the things I didn't know about what is kind of an aspect of my career.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah, me too. I learned so much more than I was anticipating. And also, I can't wait to read her book.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Let's talk obsessions. What do you got for me?

[Olivia Mentor]

I don't really have one. The best I can say is we're recording ahead of time. And tonight I'm watching the Severance finale.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow. Which I am too.

[Olivia Mentor]

I saw some reactions to it. I'm going to a little watch party, and I saw someone refer to it as the best episode of television they've ever seen.

[Becca Freeman]

Wow.

[Olivia Mentor]

Also, just a lot of holy shit. Yeah. Wow. I'm like, am I gonna be able.

[Becca Freeman]

To save it for tonight? Do I need to watch it here at 10:45 in the morning? Once we're done with this, I'm gonna try not to.

[Olivia Mentor]

This says a lot about the broken nature of my brain, but I actually had a thought that I should watch the finale on my own this morning and then go to the watch party and sort of bask in the strange satisfaction of knowing what happens, but everyone around me not knowing.

[Becca Freeman]

I don't disagree for a different reason, though. I think that watching alone allows you to pay closer attention, so that's true. I would not judge you if you went that course.

[Olivia Mentor]

I think I'm gonna try to resist, but it is tempting. Well, what's your obsession? Do you have one this week?

[Becca Freeman]

Well, I don't have an obsession, but I have two things that maybe, taken together, make an obsession. We recorded yesterday. So I haven't become obsessed with anything new in the past 24 hours. So the first thing I have for you is an anti obsession, something that I thought I was gonna love and I hate. So have you seen everyone on Instagram is obsessed with that fruit riot? Like the frozen sour fruit. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Olivia Mentor]

I see it. I just googled it. I haven't keyed into this obsession.

[Becca Freeman]

Oh, my God. I feel like so many people I follow on Instagram are obsessed with it. They're like, it's so addictive. If I get it, I eat the whole bag. It's so good. And so I had been influenced, and every time I order groceries, it's out of stock. So not only is it so popular on Instagram, it's like, impossible to get because of the competition.

[Olivia Mentor]

Right.

[Becca Freeman]

I finally got it with my groceries this week. I hate it. It's too sour. Like, it's painful. And I like sour things. I got the grapes.

[Olivia Mentor]

Really?

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah.

[Olivia Mentor]

That sounds really unpleasant to me.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. Maybe the other types of fruit are not as sour, but this is unpleasant.

[Olivia Mentor]

Oh. Unfortunate. And you really like sour stuff.

[Becca Freeman]

I do. So that was a big disappointment. The other thing, that is not an obsession I have, but I need to talk about. As we all know, I'm rewatching Lost.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

So the actor Ken Leung, who plays Miles on Lost, is also Eric on Industry, and I am fully dead.

[Olivia Mentor]

Wow. He's been working for a while. I mean, like, I guess I recognized him, but, like, I would never have made that connection.

[Becca Freeman]

He's so much younger on Lost. I, like, didn't make the connection, but there was something familiar. And then when I googled it, my brain exploded. I do like to think of it as, like, one universe where he was a psychic on this magical island and then got out of that game and then went into high finance. I really like that as a backstory for Eric.

[Olivia Mentor]

Your cinematic world is really a fun place.

[Becca Freeman]

Yeah. So I think between those two things, maybe there's an obsession in there.

[Olivia Mentor]

Yeah. Something lost. If nothing else, just fun facts. I appreciate both things. What are you reading?

[Becca Freeman]

So I just finished Last Night Can't Get Enough by Kennedy Ryan, which comes out on May 13th. And this is the third book in the Skyland series. So if you've been here a while, we read the first book, which was called Before I Let Go for Book club back in 2022, 2023, somewhere around there. And so the series follows a group of three friends in Atlanta, and they're loosely connected. You don't need to read the other books to be able to enjoy one of them. But I have been waiting for this character's book since the series came out. So this is the one that follows Hendricks, who is the friend who's child free. She's the one who is a manager of, like, reality TV celebrities. She, like, is the manager of what seems like Housewives of Atlanta. I've been waiting for this book. I loved it. Oh, definitely my favorite in the series, which is no surprise, just because of the character. It's really, really fun. It's a billionaire romance. There's a lot going on in this book. It feels like it definitely borrows a lot from kind of the more smutty Kindle unlimited romances. So it has the billionaire Roman, but it's like, really well done, and this is a blast. So very excited for everyone to read this when it comes out on May 13th. I think this is gonna be. I think this is gonna be a big romance. What about you?

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm reading a few different things, but I am halfway through the favorites. I need you to tell me whether or not to go on. Cause I just. I can't decide how I feel about it. So tell me what to do.

[Becca Freeman]

So there's specifically a thread about this in the Facebook group. If you need more counsel than just mine. I think that if you're not already in at the halfway point, you're not gonna get more in.

[Maura Cheeks]

Okay.

[Olivia Mentor]

That's kind of what I was wondering.

[Becca Freeman]

I found it, like, very compelling right from the beginning just because of like the hyper specific world of figure skating. So that was the draw to me. So if that hasn't hooked you, you're not gonna get hooked.

[Olivia Mentor]

It's fun. Like, I'm kind of feeling like I might just wait for the show. Is it gonna be a show or the movie? I think based on a lot of. I would assume. Yes, I know. I think the rights have sold. I'm pretty sure. Okay, good to know. Good to know.

[Becca Freeman]

Well, tell us about our book club pick for this month because I have something that's not out and you have something that you're not jazzed on, but we have. So where are we sending people?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes, to an island near Antarctica.

[Becca Freeman]

Really?

[Olivia Mentor]

Island themed this year, I guess, but. But it is very different than Isola, if you want something else. Anyway, so this is about the Salt family. It is a father and his three children who are the caretakers of this research station on this remote island which is like full of nature, lots of whales and seals. And one day this woman washes up on shore, severely injured. They have to all nurse her back to health. Slowly they learn why she is there. And it is very twisty. There are just lots of surprises. It's beautiful. I cried. I can't wait to talk about it.

[Becca Freeman]

And to be clear, this is contemporary, right?

[Olivia Mentor]

Yes. Yes.

[Becca Freeman]

Great. We'll be talking about that the last Wednesday of April. And in the meantime, you can come join us in the Facebook group under Badon Paper podcast in the Geneva group, which is an app that is basically slack for not work, where there is different rooms to talk about different genres of books or for different locations if you want to try to plan meetups locally. There's a room for severance if you want to talk about the finale. So join us. There Join us on Instagram atonpaperpodcast. I'm on Instagram ecamfreeman. You can also subscribe to my [e-mail].

[Olivia Mentor]

I'm oliviamentor all the places and we.

[Becca Freeman]

Will see you next week. Bye Bye.

[Olivia Mentor]

Ra.